>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas it's the Cube, covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the Cube's coverage of DockerCon 2017 here in Austin, Texas. Getting towards the end of our two days of coverage. Really been geeking out on a lot of the technology here, and I was happy to be able to pull in two guys I know, I've had them on the Cube before, to really go in into how this who container wave is impacting their business, to go into the technology some. So I want to welcome back to the program, first you know John White. He's the Vice President of Product Strategy with Expedient and who I'm happy to see not wearing his football jersey. John, thanks for joining me again. >> (laughs) Good to see you. >> And Joep Piscaer, who is the CTO of OGD. I had the pleasure of interviewing Joep over in Europe last year at a show, so, you know, welcome over to Austin. I think Vienna and Austin, woe meet coma at both of those places. >> Oh yeah. >> So yeah, it seems every time we get together there's a lot of that going around. >> There's always a meet excuse, right? >> Right, so maybe start with you, have you been to DockerCon before? What's your experience been here at the show so far? >> Yeah, so this is my second DockerCon. I've been here last year as well, in Seattle. And I'm kind of liking the vibe this time round. So last year it was really, you know, all about developers. I'm kind of liking it, more about the enterprise right now. You know, as an enterprise guy, work for an MSP, so you know, we deal with a lot of enterprises. And it's good to see that Docker is, you know, giving the enterprise a lot of thought and a lot of attention because, you know, that was one area where they were lacking last year. >> So John, you know, you look at a lot of the ecosystem, you're also a service provider. What's your take so far? >> Yeah, so this is the first time for me at DockerCon. I go to a lot of conferences, so I read the room a little bit differently, I guess, than most. It's been interesting for me. These two days have been jam-packed. I've been soaking up a lot of new knowledge and new vendors, new potential partners for us to look into. But I'll agree, I think a lot of the focus on the enterprise, figuring out maybe how this is relevant to them and the future is actually a really great way to go and I hope to see more of that. Looking for those use cases right now is a little bit hard, especially when you have people like Visa that have been working on this for, you know, a few years now and only six months into production. We're just so very, very early in this technology that I think we're still walking, maybe, probably still crawling even, through it. >> Yeah, before we go into the tech, let's talk about ecosystems. So it's a word that I heard over and over again in the keynotes. You know, John, I was talking with you at VN World at AWS Free Invent, as a service provider sometimes, it feels like body blows and head shots, going to some of these shows because how they're partnering with you, how do you see Docker? What kind of things do they build? How does that, you know, help or hurt your business? >> Yeah, so Docker is a company, we really haven't worked with them quite yet. The ecosystem, though, is interesting here. There's a lot of new faces here, a lot of faces that I've interacted with on the Virtualization Days, now kind of porting over to here, so, you know, I've already started to reach out to some of them to kind of get an understanding, like for instance, of risks on the network side, what they're doing, how they're actually interacting with Docker. And think that's going to be really important because I think that's going to be one of my bigger challenges in the future, is how I actually network all this stuff together. You know, I can see us definitely starting to work closer with Docker, with Docker Data Center. I think customers are going to demand something like that. And they're not going to want to host it inside of their data centers. They're going to want to host it in probably a third party service provider. >> Yeah, I'm sure both of you were looking at, I think it was the Visa case study, we talked about utilization of what they had and I thought of you guys, cause it was like, oh, wait, big surprise, my utilization is really low because wait, why am I doing this in house when I should be going to somebody to handle that. Your thoughts on the ecosystem, you know, we talked at the Nucanic Show, you know, when you look at technology partners, you know, how does Docker and their ecosystem fit in to your thoughts? >> So it's like a whole new ecosystem to get into, right? So it's kind of discovering from ground zero again, what's the ecosystem look like? Who's doing what, who's developing what kind of new trends? So it's good to be there early, just to get a good feel about the ecosystem, get to know the people and be able to kind of develop a strategy around Docker, because it is early days, right? So it's way too early to go in to a customer and say we have a complete package for you. That's just not going to happen between now and like six months. So the issue really is how you get to a point with the customer where you can jointly develop a strategy to get Docker into your service profile. And going to events like DockerCon really helps to actually kind of achieve that goal. >> So you guys are always in an interesting space, you know, you're consuming some of the technologies from the vendor, you've got your customers, you know, putting demands on you, so you know, CTO sets strategy, why not dig in for us a little bit as to what your seeing, what's good, what's bad, you know. There's networking, there's storage, there's security, you know. Maybe John, start with you. I don't know if networking would be the one to start, but I'll let you choose. >> Yeah I think we're going to run, I mean, we're an infrastructure company. We've been running virtual infrastructure since 2007. We know it, we understand it. And you start to understand where the pitfalls are. This is going to change it. I mean, the bin packing problem is going to change significantly over the next few years. Some of the people, I went to their use case session, they're saying they're seeing 70% reduction in resources. Now, they're not saying 70% reduction in resources, you know, just because they made things smaller. They just packed them tighter into a smaller group of boxes. That's going to be interesting. And you know, discovering how we can actually provide that at the true infrastructure layer for our customers is going to be a really big challenge for us. And it's going to revolve around us having pretty strong partner relationships since we don't do the professional services to kind of figure out how to transform your application. We're going to need somebody to help us there. We're going to handle the infrastructure underneath. >> Maybe explain that a little more. Like you know, if I'm saying well, if I'm Amazon and I can just do that, they've got kind of infinite resources there and therefore as a customer I don't need to worry about that, you know. What do you have to worry about? And should your customers care or will you make that transparent to them? >> Let's think about, you know, we went to virtualization. We had P to V converters, right? We all used them, we all tested them. We said okay, this physical server now can run as a virtual server, that works. You really don't have, even though they announce something where you can take a VMDK to an image, Docker image, you really don't have a clean way to do that unless you think that building a big monolithic container is going to save you time and money. Maybe it will. But there's going to be some sort of application transformation that you have to do to be really successful inside of this new platform in the future. And that's something where I think you're going to have to have partners really ingrained to help build the cultural, help build the bridges to the operational teams, help to show the value to the executive team and why you're going to save money, why you're going to do something more secure, you know, how it's going to benefit you in the future. And those are just pretty big challenges that are out there in front of us. >> Joep? >> Yeah so that's the major issue, right? So from our perspective, we use ISVs for the software we deploy for customers, you know, a lot. I'd probably say like 90% of the applications we deploy, we didn't develop or the customer didn't develop in house. It's just all, you know, standardized V stuff. And having a networks of ISVs around you to help you transition from virtual machines into some kind of container format, to address the bin packing problem, that's going to be, that's going to be the biggest challenge to solve, right? It's not just packing up an application and moving it into a container. It's actually transforming it from whatever it is now into something more efficient, more scalable, more resilient. And that's you know really the issue we're trying to tackle, as far as looking at the ecosystem, looking at how to build our practice around it. It's not just infrastructure anymore. It is really all about the application now. So you have to develop a whole new set of skills. You have to develop new people around you. You have to develop new services. And that's interesting because it does have real advantages for the customers, but it's going to take a while to have that mature to a level the customers can actually pull it off the shelf and implement it in their own companies. >> One thing I think on the infrastructure side that I just was in Visa's use case, they were talking about how they're doing it on bare metal. That's different for us. We've been running virtualization for so long, now to say to the engineers, hey look, we're actually just going to run a Linux operating system, or even a Microsoft operating system now on bare metal, and we're going to run containers and get rid of that hypervisor. That's going to be a pretty unique conversation to have. We've already created the monitoring tools and unit performance tools, looking all at the VM. Now we might go back to just running servers again. It'll be a new challenge. >> Yeah really interesting. So there was a lot of focus in the keynote about how they've been maturing security. Want to get your take on that. You know, two years ago it was like oh wait, that's one of the biggest barriers to putting things in production. It feels at a high level like we've made some good progress. Is security still an issue? Are you comfortable with where we are? Maybe anything that still needs to be done? >> You want to go first? >> Sure. (laughing) >> This is a can of worms. >> Yeah so security is always, you know, it's always a can of worms. But you know, my take on it, it doesn't actually matter if it runs in a container or VM. Like 90% of the threads come from outside the compute right? So it's going to come off the network, off the internet, off the users. So really from a security perspective, I'm kind of ambiguous which way to go. But again, the ecosystem story comes back into play, right? Is the ecosystem mature enough to actually deliver security products for containers? The VMware ecosystem was completely mature in that sense. It can just pick off, you know, 20 products and basically do that same thing. And for Docker, that's going to be, you know, a challenge to say the least, to get up to a point where you can pick whatever you actually need. And it's going to be a discovery and it's going to be a little while before we get there. >> Yeah, so I have to read through your tweets to find the answer, John? >> No, no, I'll give you, I think well, security's a mess kind of in general but it's, I think some of the things that they're doing you know, early on, that before there's any critical mass adoption yet, making sure encrypted traffic and handling TLS certificates in an easy fashion, that's great. I was impressed with the notary function, where it can go and look at the image and know if there's any vulnerabilities, and go and identify the problems. It really helps the developers kind of understand the operational asks that people actually have to make sure, okay look, you're going to roll out this new image, this new code? Let's make sure it's secure to get started, at least. We all know it's going to kind of, maybe fall out of the norm once it actually gets up and running operational and production. But let's make sure it's secure at least to boot the thing. >> What do you see containers, when does it have a significant impact on your business? Does it transform the way that you deliver your service? Will it change pricing? >> Yeah, I think it's going to. I mean, a few things that are going to happen. I mean, it's going to increase in scale, so you're going to have more to actually manage, which is going to be a new challenge. That's one side of it. But you're going to probably end up consuming more infrastructure in the long run. And that infrastructure is going to get commoditized even more than it already is right now. And you're going to have to make sure that that's down to the minimum dollars or the minimum cents that you need to provide that very small segment of actual storage or RAM or compute that you need. And that's going to really shift the business. And especially when you look at a lot of containers where you have some that may be run on a monthly basis, a lot of them are only going to be running maybe a few seconds, a few minutes. So you're going to have to have very granular tracking and understanding for that show back charge back to the CFO that you're actually running the services for so they know exactly what they can expect for the bill that month. That's really different than what we're doing today. >> You know will that be a challenge for you to continue to compete against the public clouds, where it seems that that's a more natural fit for some of the pricing and the models that they've built? >> I don't think so. I think this is something where you're even getting more high touch with the application. You know, data sovereignty, that was listed up there I think on Met Life's use case today. That's always going to be important. They're going to want to know where the data's living, why it's living there, how to audit, how to do compliance against it. That's always going to be really important, that'll make us be a little bit different than the public cloud. >> Alright, your business? >> So I agree, right. So the pricing is going to be something to kind of readjust. But I kind of see a lot of advantages in terms of security, the secure software supply chain. So I'm really liking that message. So instead of having a big unknown in terms of whatever is coming into your data center, you now can say with a certain degree of certainty that the application you are running is secure, it's been tested, it's been tested by the compliance team. And I think enterprises in the end are really looking at how to mitigate those security risks and having such a secure software supply chain is absolutely going to help in that respect. >> Alright, so what feedback would you give to the community, what more do you want to see developed, areas where you think we need to make some progress, you know? Joep, I'll start with you. >> So the biggest is monolithic applications. So a lot of enterprises still have legacy applications. >> Well, you've got Oracle in the Docker store now. >> Yeah, exactly. (laughs) But it's still a monolith, right? So addressing that problem one way or the other, but especially in terms of availability, recoverability, I think that's one major area where Docker needs to focus on in the coming months. >> Alright, so John, same question, with a little twist for you is what you'd like to see and anything that if you're talking to VM Ware, what they should be doing more in this space. >> Okay, yeah. I think, I want to see from Docker a lot more use cases. I want to see them start to build their user group and community a little bit more, a lot more sharing needs to occur. The use case session that they had, it was basically two days of use cases running, were great. A lot of those companies, I had a hard time relating to my customers, I mean, Visa, Met Life, they're huge. I really don't, our service, you know, small to medium into the large, but those, they don't have the same use cases. So continue to focus on, you know, how we can actually work on this together with these new customers. On the VMware side of it, VMware's in every data center in the world. And they have a story around VIC, they have a story around Photon. They need to continue to figure out how to build that bridge to, maybe that VM decay to container tool that they have. Work on it together, see what you can do together to take this on to the next level of understanding of really how we can actually transform these applications that were all built in Vms. >> Alright, well, John, Joep, really appreciate you guys coming through. You never hold back sharing your opinions on it. Look forward to reading, I'm sure you'll probably do write ups from the show, too. And we've actually got Visa on as our next guest here. You've probably given me a couple of questions to ask there too, when I go into it. But getting towards the end of Cube's coverage here at DockerCon 2017. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From Austin, Texas, it's theCUBE covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hi, and we're back, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is SilconANGLES production of the Cube, here at DockerCon 2017, Austin, Texas. Happy to have on the program Kiran Kamity, who was CEO of ContainerX which was acquired by Cisco. And you're currently the senior director and head of container products at Cisco. And also joining us is Brad Wong, who is the director of product management at Docker. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Brad: Thanks for having us. [Kiran] Thank you, Stu. >> So Kiran, talk a little bit about ContainerX, you know, bring us back to, why containers, you know why you help start a company with containers, and when to be acquired by a big company like Cisco. >> Yeah, it was actually late 2014 is when Pradeep and I, my co-founder from ContainerX, we started brainstorming about, you know, what do we do in the space and the fact that the space was growing, and my previous company called RingCube, which has sold to Citrix, where we had actually built a container between 2006 and 2010. So we wanted to build a management platform for containers, and it was in a way there was little bit of an overlap with Docker Datacenter, but we were focusing on mostly tendency aspects of it. Bringing in concepts like viamordi rs into containers et cetera. And we were acquired by Cisco about eight months ago now, and the transition in the last eight months has been fantastic. >> Great, and Brad, you're first time on the cube, so give us your background, what brought you to Docker? >> Yeah, so actually before Docker I was at actually, a veteran of Cisco, interestingly enough. Many different ventures in Cisco, most recently I was actually part of the Insieme Networks team, focusing on the software defined networking, and Application Centric Infrastructure. Obviously I saw a pretty trend in the infrastructure space, that the future of infrastructure is being led by applications and developers. With that I actually got to start digging around with Docker quite a lot, found some good interest, and we started talking, and essentially that's how I ended up at Docker, to look at our partner ecosystem, how we can evolve that. Two years ago now, actually. >> I think two years ago Docker networking was a big discussion point. Cisco's been a partner there, but bring us up to speed if you would, both of you, on where you're engaging, on the engineering side, customer side, and the breadth and depth of what you're doing. >> You're right, two years ago, networking was in quite a different place. We kicked it off with acquiring a company back then called SocketPlane, which helped us really define-- >> Yeah and we know actually, ---- and ----, two alums, actually I know those guys, from the idea to starting the company, to doing acquisition was pretty quick for you and for them. >> Right, and we felt that we really needed to bring on board a good solid networking DNA into the company. We did that, and they helped us define what a successful model would be for networking which is why they came up with things like the container networking model, and live network, which then actually opened the door for our partners to then start creating extensions to that, and be able to ride on top of that to offer more advanced networking technologies like Contiv for example. >> Contiv was actually an open source project that was started within Cisco, even before the container was acquisitioned. Right after the acquisition happened, that team got blended into our team and we realized that there were some really crown jewels in Contiv that we wanted to productize. We've been working with Docker for the last six months now trying to productize that, and we went from alpha to beta to g a. Now Contiv is g a today, and it was announced in a blog post today, and it's actually 100% open-source networking product that Cisco TAC and Cisco advanced services have offered commercial support and services support. It's actually a unique moment, because this is the fist 100% open-source project that Cisco TAC has actually offered commercial support for, so it's a pretty interesting milestone I think. >> I think also with that, we also have it available on Docker store as well. It's actually the first Docker networking plug-in that it's been certified as well. We're pretty also happy to have that on there as well. >> Yeah. >> Anything else for the relationship we want to go in beyond those pieces? >> We also saw that there was a lot of other great synergies between the two companies as well. The first thing we wanted to do was to look at how we can also make it a lot better experience for joint customers to get Docker up and running, Docker Enterprise Edition up and running on infrastructure, specifically on Cisco infrastructure, so Cisco UCS. So we also kicked off a series of activities to test and validate and document how Docker Enterprise Edition can run on Cisco UCS, Nexus platforms, et cetera. We went ahead with that and a couple months later we brought out, jointly, to our Cisco validated designs for Docker Enterprise Edition. One on Cisco UCS infrastructure alone, and the other one jointly with NetApp as well, with the FlexPod Solution. So we're also very very happy with that as well. >> Great. Our community I'm sure knows the CVD's from what they are out there. UCS was originally designed to be the infrastructure for virtualized environments. Can you walk me through, what other significant differences there or anything kind of changing to move to containers versus what UCS for virtualized environment. >> The goal with that, UCS is esentially considered a premium kind of infrastructure server infrastructure for our customers. Not only can they run virtual environments today, but our goal is as containers become mainstreamed, containers evolved to being a first-class citizen alongside VM. We have to provide our customers with a solution that they need. And a turnkey solution from a Cisco standpoint is to take something like a Docker stack, or other stacks that our customer stopped, such as Kubernetes or other stacks as well, and offer them turnkey kind of experience. So with Docker Data Center what we have done is the CVD that we've announced so far has Docker Data Center, and the recipe provides an easy way for customers to get started with USC on Docker Data Center so that they get that turnkey experience. And with the MTA program that was announced, today at the key note. So that allows Cisco and Docker to work even more closely together to have not just the products, but also provide services to ensure that customers can completely sort of get started very very easily with support from advanced services and things like that. >> Great, I'm wondering if you have any customer examples that you can talk through. If you can't talk about a specific, logo, maybe you can talk about. Or if there are key verticals that you see that you're engaging first, or what can you share? >> We've been working joint customer evals, actually a couple of them. Once again I don't think we can point out the names yet. We haven't fully disclosed, or cleared it with their Prs Definitely into financials. Especially the online financials, a significant company that we've been working with jointly that has actually adopted both Contiv, and is actually seeing quite a lot of value in being able to take Docker, and also leverage the networking stack that Contiv provides. And be able to not just orchestrate networking policies for containers, but the other thing that they want to do is to have those same policies be able to run on cloud infrastructure, like EWS for example. So they obviously see that Docker is a great platform to be enable their affordability between on premises and also public cloud. But at the same time be able to leverage these kind of tools that makes that transition, and makes that move a lot easier so they don't have to re-think their security networking policies all over again. That's been actually a pretty used case I thought of the joint work that we did together with Contiv. >> Some of the customers that we've been talking to in fact we have one customer that I don't think I'm supposed say the name just yet, but we've drollled it out, has drolled out Contiv with the Docker on time. In five production data centers already. And these are the kind of customers that actually take to advanced networking capabilites that Contiv offers so that they can comprehensive L2 networking, L3 networking. Their monitoring pools that they currently use will be able to address the containers, because the L2, the L3 networking capabilities allows each container to have an IP address that is externally addressable, so that the current monitoring tools that you use for VMs et cetera can completely stay relevant, and be applicable in the container world. If you have an ACI fabric that continues to work with containers. So those are some of the reasons why these customers seem to like it. >> Kiran, you're relatively new into Cisco, and you were a software company. Many people they still think of Cisco as a networking company. I've heard people derogatory it's like, "Oh they made hardware define networking when they rolled out some of this stuff." Tell us about, you talk about an open source project that you guys are doing. I've talked to Lou Tucker a number of times. I know some of the software things you guys are doing. Give us your viewpoint as to your new employer, and how they might be different than people think of as the Cisco that we've known for decades. >> Cisco is, has of course it has, you know, several billion dollars of revenue coming in from hardware and infrastructure. And networking and security have been the bread and the butter for the company for many many years now But as the world moves to Cloud-Native becoming a first class citizen, the goal is really to provide complete solutions to our customers. And if you think of complete solutions, those solutions include things like networking, thing like security. Including analytics, and complete management platforms. At the same time, at the end of the day, the customers want to come to peace with the fact that this is a multi-cloud world Customers have data centers on premises, or on hosted private cloud environments. They have workloads that are running on public clouds. So with products like cloud center, our goal is to make sure that whatever they, the applications that they have, can be orchestrated across these multiple clouds. We want to make sure that the pain points the customers have around deploying whole solutions include easy set-up of products on infrastructure that they have, and that includes partnerships like UCS, or running on ACI or Nexus. We want to make sure that we give that turnkey experience to these customers. We want to make sure that those workloads can be moved across and run across these different clouds. That's where products like cloud center come in. We want to make sure that these customers have top grade analytics, which is completely software. That's were the app dynamics acquisition comes in. And we want to make sure that we provide that turnkey experience with support in terms of services. With our massive services organization, partners, et cetera. We view this as our job is to provide our customers what they need in terms of the end solution that they're looking for. And so it's not just hardware, it's just a part of it. Software, services, et cetera, complimented. >> Alright, Brad last question that I have for you in the keynote yesterday, I couldn't count how many times the word ecosystem was used. I think it was loud and clear that everybody there I think it was like, you know, Docker will not be successful unless it's partners are successful, kind of vice versa. When you look at kind of the product development piece of things, how does that resonate with you and the job that you're doing? >> We basically are seeing Docker become more of a, more and more of a platform as evidenced by yesterdays keynote. Every platform, the only way that platform's going to be successful is if we can do great, we have great options for our partners, like Cisco, to be able to integrate with us on multiple different levels, not just on one place. The networking plug-in is just one example. Many many other places as well Yesterday we announced two new open source initiatives. Lennox kit and also the movi project. You can imagine that there's probably lots of great places where partners like Cisco can actually play in there, not just only in the service fees, but maybe also in things like IOT as well, which is also a fast-emerging place for us to be. And all the way up until day two type of monitoring, type of environment as well where we think there's a lot of great places where once again, options like app dynamics, tetration analytics can fit in quite nicely with how do you take applications that have been migrated or modernized into containers, and start really tracking those using a common tool set. So we think that's really really good opportunities for our ecosystem partners to really innovate in those spaces, and to differentiate as well. >> Kiran, I want to give you the final word, take-aways that you want the users here, and those out watching the show to know about, you know, Cisco, and the Docker environment. >> I want to let everybody know that Cisco is not just hardware. Our goal is to provide turnkey complete solutions and experiences to our customers. And as they walk through this journey of embracing Cloud-Native workloads, and containerized workload there's various parts of the problem, that include all the way from hardware, to running analytics, to networking, to security, and services help, and Cisco as a company is here to offer that help, and make sure that the customers can walk away with turnkey solutions and experiences. >> Kiran and Brad, thank you so much for joining us. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, DockerCon 2017, you're watching theCube.

(techno music) >> Narrator: From Austin, Texas It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from EnSync System Partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman, here with Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program. Someone we've had on theCUBE many times, Ben Golub, who is the CEO of Docker. Welcome Back. Hey, congratulations to you and the team. >> Oh hey, thank you, and I'd like to say, this is our favorite time of year. Followed very closely by the week after DockerCon and we no longer have to do it. >> Absolutely, I mean, look, I'd say the word that stuck out for me the most this morning is, 'scaleability'. So, we talk about how customers are thinking about scaleability, how you scale the different solutions you have. And, look at the scale of an event like this. So, you know, we've got, you know, this big event here, 5,500 people ... Which we were reminiscing back to like the first DockerCon and the growth of this. It's impressive and it's done really well. I haven't seen people griping about taking an hour to check in, the food's been good ... You know, the lines haven't been. >> Ben: Yeah, good. >> And, Austin always a fun place to come, >> Absolutely. >> Apropos for all the open source stuff that's going on. >> Yeah, the only problem is, this is the first place where we've had a Docker conference, where we haven't been at a port. So, like all of these great, look at the containers ships outside, you know, we can no longer do that. But, that's okay. >> Uh, Vancouver would maybe be good. I remember actually, I did puns for an entire week when we were at Open Stack Summit in Vancouver. Overlooking the bay there cause there is container ships everywhere. >> Ben: Is that right? >> So Ben, you know please just bring us up to speed ... Kind of you, the team, we've gone through a lot of the announcements but, so some of the highlights for it. >> Yeah, I mean, I mean obviously this morning we had a lot of fantastic announcements. We talked about Lenox Kit. We talked about Mobi. You saw, just huge improvements in the developer flow. Tomorrow is going to be a lot about enterprise. For me, that's really the most exciting change that we've seen over the past year. It's just an explosion of Docker and the enterprise. You know, Docker has brought on over 400 enterprise class customers. Some of the largest names uh, really in the industry right? And, some of them like, MetLife and VISA and Intuit, will be talking live tomorrow. Um, and what's been especially interesting for us is that, the use of Docker is not just for Greenfield projects. Um, Docker's being used to keep planes in the air, keep trains running on time, and it's being used in the largest, some of the largest financial transactions, handling, you know, millions and millions of transactions a day, right? And, that's really exciting for us, it's also very humbling. >> All those used cases you throw out, it's Docker cover lots of applications, from a wide variety of things. It reminds of what we've see. >> Right, right. A lot of them are, you know, they're 15 three year old applications as well as, you know, two minute old applications. >> Yeah, and it's something we've been picking at is how much is it the new stuff, and how much is it the platform, that can bring some of the older stuff in. And, then we look at how we change it over time. I think it's something we've been struggling with, kind of, whole cloud and app, you know, modernization, for years now. >> Yeah, well I think it's really good. I think, um, that there's this sort of, there's this fallacy, that sort of persisted for a while, where people thought, okay, you know if you're going to have BiModal IT, there's going to be the new cool stuff down in the containers running the cloud, and then all that old stuff is just going to wither and die in some dark data center somewhere. >> Yeah, right. >> It doesn't match what we hear. >> That's absolutely not the case actually, you know. If we look across our customer base, you know, about 50% of them are beginning their Docker journey with their traditional apps. Now that's not where it ends. But, you know, if you think about it just by taking 80% or 90% of the apps out there, our traditional applications run in, you know, traditional infrastructure. And, just by taking a traditional application, you put it inside of a Docker container, you know, automatically you're getting, without changing a single line of code, something between 75% and 5X better resource utilization. You're able to do simple things like, upgrade your data base, or move from an old machine to a new machine, or old data center to a new data center. Again, without changing a single line of code. But, then the magic starts. >> Right? Then you start taking that traditional application, and treating it in a more modern way. CICD, gradually breaking it down into smaller and smaller bits, and that's the way it goes. >> So, You know, some of has struggled. We said, remember back to virtualization. Virtualization has the easy low hanging fruit of, oh, I can consolidate. I can get great utilization. %I can save a lot of money. I think you did a good job laying out. You know, in your last statement there. But, it's not as simple, you know? When it gets bubbled up to the customers, you know, the board, the sea level, when they're doing this. What is it they're like? What's the initiative they're running? Cause, it's not ... Nobody says, oh I have a container problem. >> Ben: Uh, right, right, we fix it. >> What is that business need, you know, that you're helping to, you're helping them to itch? >> Well, it's something all they need to, they need to be more efficient. They need to be faster, right? >> And, Docker helps you do that if you're running brand spanking new applications. >> Yeah, but she loves that. We talked about that for a while. >> It's agility. But, you know, part of agility is also making sure that your existing applications don't weigh you down, right? And, and that they actually support your business gradually going forward. >> Yeah. And, I mean, one of the things, one of the things that excited me about containers in the early days, is ... I'm an infrastructure guy, and, infrastructure has always held us back. and, the atomic, you know, you know, containers bring the applications really as the atomic note. yIt's not the server or their VM. It's the app, or you know, the 12 factor, you know, app there so. So if the app's driving it, not that infrastructure matters, but, it's not the thing driving it. >> Right, well the ... by focusing on the app, we actually let people choose the infrastructure that they want, or migrate from, you know one style of infrastructure to another style, over time. Uh, what it also though means is, if you're focusing on the app, or on the container, then how do you think about security, and how do you think about networking, and how you think about compliance? Uh, all of those things need a refresh. But, the good news is &once you do that refresh, it's actually much faster, and much more efficient. >> Alright, So you know John Furrier wouldn't let this interview come without, you know popping in. So, he is just sending me a note, and he said, "What is the intersection between the cloud native, and the app developers, that you're seeing?" >> Uh, the internet intersection between the cloud native ... >> Cloud native and app developers. >> Um, you know, I think that developers want to build really cool stuff. And, if they build a cloud native, that's fantastic. Um, if they want to build it, not being cloud native, that's very cool too, right? We're seeing this whole generation of, of developers who, you know, may have been working in Java for the past 15 years, or working in, ah, dot net. Um, They're able to do really, really cool things. Um, With Docker, uh, and it actually helps bring them into the cloud native space. But, you don't have to rewrite an amazing application, just because of your architecture, your infrastructure is changing. >> Yeah, you can wrap and refactor, and migrate your existing applications at the pace that you wish. Uh, rather than being forcibly upgraded or migrated. >> That's right, that's right. You also don't need to know what cloud you're going to be running on four years from now. Or, what infrastructure you're going to be running on, or, what your apps going to be able to do, right? Um, you know, this stuff happens organically with Docker. And, that's really part of the beauty of it. >> You know you are developing for the multi-cloud. In other words, the cloud you're on today, and the clouds you might be on tomorrow, and a flexible or graceful transition. And, you know, it's really cloud churn over time you're going to be on a variety of clouds, and you just want to make sure your applications, and your data and all your assets are easily migrate-able. >> Yeah, I think you stated that really well, and I think especially as people start looking into, you know, applications where they want to burst, or applications that are sort of big data where they want to, you know, be moving the application to the data rather than the date to the applications, right? Um, it needs to be multi-cloud because actually, or multi-location, right? Um, and we're happy to help with that. >> Um, so, we've watched the maturity of the technology, and the growth of the system. I mean, I think a lot of us were really happy. Eco system, I mean, you know, Soloman did a great job of highlighting that. To be honest, some of the swarm stuff, with Docker data center last year, felt like ... >> Felt like we were fighting, yeah. >> It felt like a little bit of fighting, and it feels like we're healing, and we're coming together, and, we're growing that. So, maybe speak on that a little bit. But, the follow up question I have for you on kind of the business is, I think we're still pretty early in the modernization strategy for this. And, I think it's good for people to realize that. That, you know, all of this stuff doesn't happen over night. It's amazing to see how far it's come, you know, In just four years of the company. Um, but, you know, I'll let you riff on those two things. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, so I'll start with the first one, which is, um, you know, fighting within the eco system. You know, there's this sort of this saying that, you know, people hate people of a slightly different sect, more than they hate pagans, right? (laughing) so I think sometimes within, within like the open source community, oh, you take a slightly different approach towards orchestration than I would of taken, therefore, we should be enemies. And, then suddenly you take a step back and say, "now wait a minute, we're all trying to do the same thing. Build great apps and make the world, uh, enable people to build great things, Right?" And, I think as Solomon laid out today, right? Orchestration, container run time, security, networking, various slavers of the security. These are all things, that actually should be really atomic, and we should be able to all collaborate on them. So, you're seeing a lot more of that. Cause also what we're seeing is in terms of modernization you know, modernization isn't a single, isn't driven by a single factor. It's not driven by orchestration, or it's not driven by networking. It's really, what we're seeing more and more is that it's being driven by the supply chain. And it's how do I as an enterprise, with lots of developers building lots of different types of apps. Some are old, some are new, some are Lenix, some are Windows, some are running on Prim, some are running in the cloud. How do I manage that supply chain, and have it be secure no matter where it's going? And, that's where we're able to add a lot of value. What we're finding as a business, to get to your point. Is that we'll meet the customer wherever they want to start. Our business model, our subscription model, we charge based off of you know, nodes per year, or nodes per minute, if you really want to go there. And, we just let them gradually start using more and more and more. So we're actually very excited. Not only do we have, you know, 400 large customers, and you know, 10,000 smaller customers. But, we're seeing every customer is expanding, is renewing, and so customers who were on 40 nodes six months ago, are now on 400, 500, a 1,000 nodes. We have on 12,000 node customer, uh, and that's really good for our business model. >> Yeah, the other question from Furrier is, you know, what KPI's are you tracking this year? Are you talking, 400 enterprise customers, you look at, you know, the size of how many employees you have, you know. What are some of the growth drivers and levers that you guys are playing with this year? >> Yeah, it's honestly for us, the most important metrics that we're looking at is, is obviously number of new users, how that translates into number of new customers. You know, within the customers, how many nodes are they deploying on, and most importantly, how many more of them? >> What about your host, is that growing too? >> That's growing too, right, right? So, designated containers for host is growing. Ah, and for us, the KPI is okay. You know, how are those customers doing? How many of them are renewing? How many of them are expanding? Um, and for us, you know, I think that sort of brings it back to the customer level. We do a good job with the customers, especially with this subscription business model. I think that sort of forces you to, if you invest in the customer, they're going to invest in you. >> Yeah, um, speaking of money, we've got Cherry Chen coming on next. And, as far as you're saying, there's a lot of top VC's here. What do you see that, what's driving investment in this area? Um, you know, where are you guys with dollars? Anything you can you say on that? Just kind of the VC investment end. >> Okay, tell Furrier if he wants to ask difficult questions, you've got to be sitting here, otherwise ... (laughing) Um, uh, no, so, so, we're seeing ... >> He's shy, he can only talk through an intermediary. >> Yeah. I understand. John is not shy. >> Talk for yourself John. >> Um, we're very happy about what's happening with our modernization. We're seeing the top line growing much, much faster than the expanse line growing. I mean, if we want them to cross right at a certain point. But, it looks like that's going to happen pretty soon here. But, I think there's so much interest in this area, because this is really is much broader than a single application, right? I mean, yeah, you can go out and you can invest in some great sales companies, or, you know, some great open source application companies. But, you know, containerization and dockerization, right? It's really a c-chain, and it's impacting infrastructure, and it's impacting apps. It's impacting networking and storage, and also the other traditional areas, but I think in a really exciting way. >> Yeah, can you speak to the culture of Docker? I remember that first show in 2014, 42 employees. And, now you've got a little over 300. What is, you know, the prototype? What do you look for in a docker, an employee there, you know, what do you see this company being when you're a 1,000 employees? >> That's a really good question? >> How do you motivate them? What is the vision that they're all ... >> Well something like this. This is incredibly motivating. And, I honestly, um, for people at Docker, we look for all different types, sort of say, hey, we kind of like people who are type A personalities, and type B bodies, you know? (laughing) We're really excited, but are able to, you know, run at sprint pace for a marathon. Um, but honestly the things that keep us really, really motivated is, I say, if you're ever feeling down at Docker, go talk to users, go talk to customers, and that will get you excited. I spoke this morning about, ah, TGN, which is this non-profit genomics company. The fact that Docker has enabled them to sequence individual pages of genomes, so much faster, and diagnose them, and cure them faster. You know, you heard the story of the young girl who spent the first 12 years of her life in a wheel chair, barely able to talk. And, now because of things that Docker helped enable, she's out, she's living life like a typical teenager. Wants to become a genomics scientist when she grows up. Going to main stream school. I mean that, that's motivating. And, that helps to deal with the normal trough of oh, okay the code didn't work, we missed the ship date, whatever the case may be. >> Yeah, yeah, you didn't help advertising clicks. You know, you're helping to improve lives. And to that, I love that the show here, you've got some charitable events, that you're contributing to. Are there activities you guys are doing at corporate to help to drive, kind of, civic engagement? >> Um, you know, we do, but what we found is the best is when it comes from, from inside our employee base. Of course, our employee base would really love nothing more than going out, and talking to users, and to some extent we do have a lot of charitable things that we do. It's really exciting to have, 14 and 13 year olds who are using your technology. I mean, who would ever thought? I spent my entire life trying to have something that my kids would think is cool, and actually now, they think Docker is. >> How does it tie in with education? Are you guys helping to, you know, the next generation of active people? >> Absolutely, Docker is actually being used very broadly in computer science courses. Just because, that's basically how teachers want students to submit their, submit their projects to them, submit within the Docker container, right? Of course, we're thrilled that they're learning how to use Docker. It also means that students, they don't need to worry about making sure the student's laptops are set up correctly. They can focus on writing great code. So, yeah, we engage in education. We're doing some educational work with people in San Francisco. Just because that's our home base. And, we're really happy to support you know, three, actually four wonderful charities that are here at DockerCon today. You know, some servicing, LGBT youth, we've got one in the genomics space. Uh, one focused on teaching coding. Uh, and that just kind of ... That really helps to stay motivated. To stay motivated. >> It's a shame that you're not having any fun. >> You know, I'm having a ton of fun. I'm exhausted. I'll probably collapse in a corner. You know, come Friday. >> And as you said, your second favorite week of the year is this week, right? >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Alright Ben, I want to give you the final word, you know, we've got another day, I'm sure you've got a ton of stuff in the announcements tomorrow. We're going to have Solomon on right after the key note tomorrow, but when people leave Austin, what do you want them to know about, you know, the Docker community and Docker the company? >> You know, I'd say that, you know, Docker is here, Docker is now, Docker is for old and for new, for on premise, and for cloud, for Lenix and for Windows. Docker is here for you, and however you want to use us, we're going to help you do amazing things faster. >> Alright, I think that's wonderful Cube gem to end this on, Ben Golub, CEO of Docker, always a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on the show. We are thrilled to be able to be here to cover it. >> Okay. >> And we'll back with one more guest here, on our day one of two days of live coverage, you're watching theCUBE. (techno music)