>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference, 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angle media. >>Hi everyone. Welcome back to the cubes coverage here at in San Francisco, the Moscone center for RSA conference 2020 I'm job for your host. We are the very special guests, the COO of VMware, Sanjay Poonen, cube alumni. When you talk about security, talk about the modern enterprise as it transforms new use cases, new problems emerge. New opportunities exist here to break it down. Sanjay, welcome back. Thank you John. Always a pleasure to be on your show and I think it's my first time at RSA. We've talked a number of times, but nice to see you here. Well, it's a security guard. Well, this is really why I wanted you to talk, talk to you because operations is become now the big conversation around security. So you know, security was once part of it. It comes out and part of the board conversation, but when you look at security, all the conversations that we're seeing that are the most important conversations are almost a business model conversation. >>Almost like if you're the CEO of the company, you've got HR people, HR, organizational behavior, collaboration, technology, stack compliance and risk management. So the threat of cyber has to cut across now multiple operational functions of the business. It's no longer one thing, it's everything. So this is really kind of makes it the pressure of the business owners to be mindful of a bigger picture. And the attack velocity is happening so much faster, more volume of attacks, milliseconds and nanosecond attacks. So this is a huge, huge problem. I need you to break it down for me. >> Good. But then wonderful intro. No, I would say you're absolutely right. First off, security is a boardroom topic. Uh, audit committees are asking, you know, the CIO so often, you know, reports a report directly, sometimes, often not even to the CIO, to the head of legal or finance and often to the audit. >>So it's a boardroom topic then. You're right, every department right now cares about security because they've got both threat and security of nation state, all malicious, organized crime trying to come at them. But they've also got physical security mind. I mean, listen, growing a virus is a serious threat to our physical security. And we're really concerned about employees and the idea of a cyber security and physical security. We've put at VMware, cybersecurity and, and um, um, physical security. One guy, the CIO. So he actually runs vote. So I think you're absolutely right and if you're a head of HR, you care about your employees. If you're care ahead of communications, you care about your reputation and marketing the same way. If you're a finance, you care about your accounting systems and having all of the it systems that are. So we certainly think that holistic approach does, deserves a different approach to security, which is it can't be silo, silo, silo. >>It has to be intrinsic. And I've talked on your show about why intrinsic and how differentiated that intrinsic security, what I talked about this morning in my keynote. >> Well, and then again, the connect the dots there. It's not just security, it's the applications that are being built on mobile. For instance, I've got a mobile app. I have milliseconds, serious bond to whether something's yes or no. That's the app on mobile. But still the security threat is still over here and I've got the app over here. This is now the reality. And again, AirWatch was a big acquisition that you did. I also had some security. Carbon black was a $2 billion acquisition that VMware made. That's a security practice. How's it all coming together? Can you think of any questions? Blame the VMware because it's not just security, it's what's around it. >> Yeah. I think we began to see over the course of the last several years that there were certain control points and security that could help, you know, bring order to this chaos of 5,000 security vendors. >>They're all legitimate. They're all here at the show. They're good vendors. But you cannot, if you are trying to say healthy, go to a doctor and expect the doctor to tell you, eat 5,000 tablets and sailed. He just is not sustainable. It has to be baked into your diet. You eat your proteins, your vegetables, your fruit, your drink, your water. The same way we believe security needs to become intrinsically deeper parts, the platform. So what were the key platforms and control points? We decided to focus on the network, the endpoint, and you could think of endpoint as to both client and workload identity, cloud analytics. You take a few of those and network. We've been laboring the last seven years to build a definitive networking company and now a networking security company where we can do everything from data center networking, Dell firewalls to load balancing to SDN in this NSX platform. >>You remember where you bought an nice syrup. The industry woke up like what's VM ever doing in networking? We've now built on that 13,000 customers really good growing revenue business in networking and and now doing that working security. That space is fragmented across Cisco, Palo Alto, FIU, NetScaler, checkpoint Riverbed, VMware cleans that up. You get to the end point side. We saw the same thing. You know you had an endpoint management now workspace one the sequel of what AirWatch was, but endpoint security again, fragmented. You had Symantec McAfee, now CrowdStrike, tenable Qualis, you know, I mean just so many fragmented IOM. We felt like we could come in now and clean that up too, so I have to worry about to do >> well basically explaining that, but I want to get now to the next conversation point that I'm interested in operational impact because when you have all these things to operationalize, you saw that with dev ops and cloud now hybrid, you got to operationalize this stuff. >>You guys have been in the operations side of the business for our VMware. That's what you're known for and the developers and now on the horizon I gotta operationalize all the security. What do I do? I'm the CSO. I think it's really important that in understanding operations of the infrastructure, we have that control point called vSphere and we're now going to take carbon black and make it agentless on the silverside workloads, which has never been done before. That's operationalizing it at the infrastructure level. At the end point we're going to unify carbon black and workspace one into a unified agent, never been done before. That's operationalizing it on the client side. And then on the container and the dev ops site, you're going to start bringing security into the container world. We actually happened in our grade point of view in containers. You've seen us do stuff with Tansu and Kubernetes and pivotal. >>Bringing that together and data security is a very logical thing that we will add there. So we have a very good view of where the infrastructure and operations parts that we know well, a vSphere, NSX workspace one containers with 10 Xu, we're going to bring security to all of them and then bake it more and more in so it's not feeling like it's a point tool. The same platform, carbon black will be able to handle the security of all of those use cases. One platform, several use cases. Are you happy with the carbon black acquisition? Listen, you know, you stay humble and hungry. Uh, John for a fundamental reason, I've been involved with number of acquisitions from my SAP VMware days, billion dollar plus. We've done talking to us. The Harvard business review had an article several years ago, which Carney called acquisitions and majority of them fail and they feel not because of process of product they feel because good people leave. >>One of the things that we have as a recipe does acquisition. We applied that to AirWatch, we apply the deny Sera. There is usually some brain trust. You remember in the days of nice area, it was my team Cosato and the case of AirWatch. It was John Marshall and that team. We want to preserve that team to help incubate this and then what breve EV brings a scale, so I'm delighted about Patrick earlier. I want to have him on your show next time because he's now the head of our security business unit. He's culturally a fit for the mr. humble, hungry. He wants to see just, we were billion dollar business now with security across networking endpoint and then he wants to take just he's piece of it, right? The common black piece of it, make it a billion dollar business while the overall security business goes from three to five. >>And I think we're going to count them for many years to come to really be a key part of VMware's fabric, a great leader. So we're successful. If he's successful, what's my job then? He reports to me is to get all the obstacles out of the way. Get every one of my core reps to sell carbon black. Every one of the partners like Dell to sell carbon black. So one of the deals we did within a month is Dell has now announced that their preferred solution on at Dell laptops, this carbon bike, they will work in the past with silence and crowd CrowdStrike. Now it's common black every day laptop now as a default option. That's called blank. So as we do these, John, the way we roll is one on here to basically come in and occupy that acquisition, get the obstacles out of the way, and that let Patrick scaled us the same way. >>Martine Casado or jumbo. So we have a playbook. We're gonna apply that playbook. Stay humble and hungry. And you ask me that question every year. How are we doing a carbon black? I will be saying, I love you putting a check on you. It will be checking in when we've done an AirWatch. What do you think? Pretty good. Very good. I think good. Stayed line to the radar. Kept growing. It's top right. Known every magic quadrant. That business is significant. Bigger than the 100 million while nice here. How do we do a nice hero? NSX? It's evolved quite a bit. It's evolved. So this is back to the point. VMware makes bets. So unlike other acquisitions where they're big numbers, still big numbers, billions or billions, but they're bets. AirWatch was a good bet. Turned out okay. That the betting, you're being conservative today anyway. That's it. You're making now. >>How would you classify those bets? What are the big bets that you're making right now? Listen, >> I think there's, um, a handful of them. I like to think of things as no more than three to five. We're making a big bet. A multi-cloud. Okay. The world is going to be private, public edge. You and us have talked a lot about VMware. AWS expanded now to Azure and others. We've a big future that private cloud, public cloud edge number two, we're making a big bet on AB motorization with the container level 10 zoos. I think number three, we're making a big bet in virtual cloud networking cause we think longterm there's going to be only two networking companies in matter, VMware and Cisco. Number four, we're making a big bet in the digital workspace and build on what we've done with AirWatch and other technologies. Number five, and make it a big bet security. >>So these five we think of what can take the company from 10 to 20 billion. So we, you know, uh, we, we've talked about the $10 billion Mark. Um, and the next big milestone for the company is a 20 billion ball Mark. And you have to ask yourself, can you see this company with these five bets going from where they are about a 10 billion revenue company to 20. Boom. We hope again, >> Dave, a lot that's doing a braking and now he might've already shipped the piece this morning on multi-cloud. Um, he and I were commenting that, well, I said it's the third wave of cloud computing, public cloud, hybrid multi-cloud and hybrids, the first step towards multi-cloud. Everyone kind of knows that. Um, but I want to ask you, because I told Dave and we kind of talked about this is a multi-decade growth opportunity, wealth creation, innovation, growth, new opportunity multicloud for the generation. >>Take the, this industry the next level. How do you see that multicloud wave? Do you agree on the multigenerational and if so, what specifically do you see that unfolding into this? And I'm deeply inspired by what Andy Jassy, Satya Nadella, you know, the past leading up to Thomas Korea and these folks are creating big cloud businesses. Amazon's the biggest, uh, in the iOS pass world. Azure is second, Google is third, and just market shares. These folks collectively are growing, growing really well. In some senses, VM-ware gets to feed off that ecosystem in the public cloud. So we are firm believers in what you're described. Hybrid cloud is the pot to the multicloud. We coined that term hybrid thought. In fact, the first incantation of eco there was called via cloud hybrid service. So we coined the term hybrid cloud, but the world is not multi-cloud. The the, the key though is that I don't think you're gonna walk away from those three clouds I mentioned have deep pockets. >>Then none of them are going away and they're going to compete hard with each other. The market shares may stay the same. Our odd goal is to be a Switzerland player that can help our customers take VM or workloads, optimize them in the private cloud first. Okay? When a bank of America says on their earnings caller, Brian Warren and said, I can run a private cloud better than a public cloud and I can save 2 billion doing that, okay? It turns off any of the banks are actually running on VMware. That's their goal. But there are other companies like Freddie Mac, we're going all in with Amazon. We want to ride the best of both worlds. If you're a private cloud, we're going to make you the most efficient private cloud, VMware software, well public cloud, and going to Amazon like a Freddie Mac will help you ride your apps into that through VMware. >>So sometimes history can be a predictor of future behavior. And just to kind of rewind the computer industry clock, if you looked at mainframe mini-computers, inter networking, internet proprietary network operating systems dominated it, but you saw the shift and it was driven by choice for customers, multiple vendors, interoperability. So to me, I think cloud multicloud is going to come down to the best choice for the workload and then the environment of the business. And that's going to be a spectrum. But the key in that is multi-vendor, multi, a friend choice, multi-vendor, interoperability. This is going to be the next equation in the modern error. It's not gonna look the same as mainframe mini's networking, but it'll create the next Cisco, the create the next new brand that may or may not be out there yet that might be competing with you or you might be that next brand. >>So interoperability, multi-vendor choice has been a theme in open systems for a long time. Your reactions, I think it's absolutely right, John, you're onto something there. Listen, the multicloud world is almost a replay of the multi hardware system world. 20 years ago, if you asked who was a multi hardware player before, it was Dell, HP at the time, IBM, now, Lenovo, EMC, NetApp, so and so forth and Silva storage, networking. The multicloud world today is Amazon, Azure, Google. If you go to China, Alibaba, so on and so forth. A Motiva somebody has to be a Switzerland player that can serve the old hardware economy and the new hardware economy, which is the, which is the cloud and then of course, don't forget the device economy of Apple, Google, Microsoft, there too. I think that if you have some fundamental first principles, you expressed one of them. >>Listen where open source exists, embrace it. That's why we're going big on Kubernetes. If there are multiple clouds, embrace it. Do what's right for the customer, abstract away. That's what virtualization is. Managed common infrastructure across Ahmed, which is what our management principles are, secure things. At the point of every device and every workload. So those are the principles. Now the engineering of it changes. The way in which we're doing virtualization today in 2020 is slightly different from when Diane started the company and around the year 2020 years ago. But the principals are saying, we're just not working just with the hardware vendors working toward the cloud vendors. So using choices where it's at, the choice is what they want. Absolutely, absolutely. And you're right. It's choice because it was the big workloads. We see, for example, Amazon having a headstart in the public cloud markets, but there's some use cases where Azure is applicable. >>Some use his word, Google's applicable, and to us, if the entire world was only one hardware player or only one cloud player, only one device player, you don't need VMware. We thrive in heterogeneity. It's awesome. I love that word. No heterogeneity provides not 3000 vendors. There's almost three, three of every kind, three silver vendors, three storage vendors, three networking vendors, three cloud vendors, three device vendors. We was the middle of all of it. And yeah, there may be other companies who tried to do that too. If they are, we should learn from them, do it better than them. And competition even to us is a good thing. All right. My final question for you is in the, yeah, the Dell technologies family of which VMware is a part of, although big part of it, the crown jewel as we've been calling them the cube, they announced RSA is being sold to a private equity company. >>What's the general reaction amongst VMware folks and the, and the Dell technology family? Good move, no impact. What we support Dell and you know, all the moves that they've made. Um, and from our perspective, you know, if we're not owning it, we're going to partner it. So I see no overlap with RSA. We partner with them. They've got three core pillars, secure ID, net witness and Archer. We partnered with them very well. We have no aspirations to get into those aspects of governance. Risk and compliance or security has been, so it's a partner. So whoever's running it, Rohit runs on very well. He also owns the events conference. We have a great relationship and then we'll keep doing that. Well, we are focused in the areas I described, network, endpoint security. And I think what Michael has done brilliantly through the course of the last few years is set up a hardware and systems company in Dell and allow the software company called Vima to continue to operate. >>And I think, you know, the movement of some of these assets between the companies like pivotal to us and so on and so forth, cleans it up so that now you've got both these companies doing well. Dell has gone public, we Hammer's gone public and he has said on the record, what's good for Dell is good, what's good for VMware and vice versa and good for the customer. And I think the key is there's no visibility on what cloud native looks like. Hybrid, public, multi, multi, not so much. But you get almost, it's an easy bridge to get across and get there. AI, cyber are all big clear trends. They're waves. Sasha. Great. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Um, your thoughts on the security show here. Uh, what's your, what's your take to, uh, definitive security shows? I hope it stays that way. Even with the change of where RSA is. >>Ownership goes is this conference in black hat and we play in both, uh, Amazon's conference. I was totally starting to, uh, reinforce, reinforce cloud security will show up there too. Uh, but we, we think, listen, there's what, 30,000 people here. So it's a force. It's a little bit like VMworld. We will play here. We'll play a big, we've got, you know, it just so happens because the acquisition happened before we told them, but we have two big presences here. We were at carbon black, um, and it's an important business for us. And I said, like I said, we have $1 billion business and security today by 30,000 customers using us in a security network, endpoints cloud. I want to take that to be a multi, multiple times that size. And I think there's a pot to do that because it's an adjacent us and security. So we have our own kind of selfish motives here in terms of getting more Mindshare and security. >>We did a keynote this morning, which was well received with Southwest airlines. She did a great job. Carrie Miller, she was a fantastic speaker and it was our way of showing in 20 minutes, not just to our point of view, because you don't want to be self serving a practitioner's point of view. And that's what's really important. Well finally on a personal note, um, you know, I always use the term tech athlete, which I think you are one, you really work hard and smart, but I got to get your thoughts. But then I saw you're not on Twitter. I'm on. When IBM announced a new CEO, Arvin, um, fishnet Indian American, another CEO, this is a pattern. We're starting to see Indian American CEOs running cup American companies because this is the leadership and it's really a great thing in my mind, I think is one of the most successful stories of meritocracy of all time. >>You're quick. I'm a big fan of oven, big fan of Shantanu, Sundar Pichai, something that Ellen, many of them are close friends of mine. Uh, many of them have grown up in Southern India. We're a different ages. Some of them are older than me and in many cases, you know, we were falling behind other great players like Vino Cosla who came even 10 to 15 years prior. And you know, it's hard for an immigrant in this country. You know, um, when I first got here and I came as an immigrant to Dartmouth college, there may have been five or 10 Brown skin people in the town of Hanover, New Hampshire. I don't know if you've been to New Hampshire. I've been there, there's not many at that time. And then the late 1980s, now of course, there's much more, uh, so, you know, uh, we stay humble and hungry. >>There's a part of our culture in India that's really valued education and hard work and people like Arvin and some of these other people are products. I look up to them, the things I learned from them. And um, you know, it's true of India. It's a really good thing to see these people be successful at name brand American companies, whether it's IBM or Microsoft or Google or Adobe or MasterCard. So we're, we're, I'm in that fan club and there's a lot I learned from that. I just love being around people who love entrepreneurship, love innovation, love technology, and work hard. So congratulations. Thank you so much for your success. Great to see you again soon as you put in the COO of VM-ware here on the ground floor here at RSA conference at Moscone, sharing his insight into the security practice that is now carbon black and VMware. All the good things that are going on there. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> From our studios, in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE studio here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. We're here introducing a new format for CUBE panel discussions, it's called Around theCUBE and we have a special segment here called Get Smart: Unpacking AI with some great with some great guests in the industry. Gene Santos, Professor of Engineering in College of Engineering Dartmouth College. Bob Friday, Vice President CTO at Mist at Juniper Company. And Ed Henry, Senior Scientist and Distinguished Member of the Technical Staff for Machine Learning at Dell EMC. Guys this is a format, we're going to keep score and we're going to throw out some interesting conversations around Unpacking AI. Thanks for joining us here, appreciate your time. >> Yeah, glad to be here. >> Okay, first question, as we all know AI is on the rise, we're seeing AI everywhere. You can't go to a show or see marketing literature from any company, whether it's consumer or tech company around, they all have AI, AI something. So AI is on the rise. The question is, is it real AI, is AI relevant from a reality standpoint, what really is going on with AI, Gene, is AI real? >> I think a good chunk of AI is real there. It depends on what you apply it to. If it's making some sort of decisions for you, that is AI that's blowing into play. But there's also a lot of AI left out there potentially is just simply a script. So, you know, one of the challenges that you'll always have is that, if it were scripted, is it scripted because, somebody's already developed the AI and now just pulled out all the answers and just using the answers straight? Or is it active learning and changing on its own? I would tend to say that anything that's learning and changing on its own, that's where you're having the evolving AI and that's where you get the most power from. >> Bob what's your take on this, AI real? >> Yeah, if you look at Google, What you see is AI really became real in 2014. That's when the AI and ML really became a thing in the industry and when you look why did it become a thing in 2014? It's really back when we actually saw TensorFlow, open source technology really become available. It's all that Amazon Compute story. You know, you look what we're doing here at Mist, I really don't have to worry about compute storage, except for the Amazon bill I get every month now. So I think you're really seeing AI become real, because of some key turning points in the industry. >> Ed, your take, AI real? >> Yeah, so it depends on what lens you want to kind of look at it through. The notion of intelligence is something that's kind of ill defined and depending how how you want to interpret that will kind of guide whether or not you think it's real. I tend to all things AI if it has a notion of agency. So if it can navigate its problem space without human intervention. So, really it depends on, again, what lens you kind of want to look at it through? It's a set of moving goalposts, right? If you take your smartphone back to Turing When he was coming up with the Turing test and asked them if this intelligent, or some value intelligent device was AI, would that be AI, to him probably back then. So really it depends on how you kind of want to look at it. >> Is AI the same as it was in 1988? Or has it changed, what's the change point with AI because some are saying, AI's been around for a while but there's more AI now than ever before, Ed we'll start with you, what's different with AI now versus say in the late 80s, early 90s? >> See what's funny is some of the methods that we're using aren't different, I think the big push that happened in the last decade or so has been the ability to store as much data as we can along with the ability to have as much compute readily disposable as we have today. Some of the methodologies I mean there was a great Wired article that was published and somebody referenced called, method called Eigenvector Decomposition they said it was from quantum mechanic, that came out in 1888 right? So it really a lot of the methodologies that we're using aren't much different, it's the amount of data that we have available to us that represents reality and the amount of compute that we have. >> Bob. >> Yeah so for me back in the 80s when I did my masters I actually did a masters on neural networks so yeah it's been around for a while but when I started Mist what really changed was a couple things. One is this modern cloud stack right so if you're going to have to build an AI solution really have to have all the pieces ingest tons of data and process it in real time so that is one big thing that's changed that we didn't have 20 years ago. The other big thing is we had access to all this open source TensorFlow stuff right now. People like Google and Facebook have made it so easy for the average person to actually do an AI project right? You know anyone here, anyone in the audience here could actually train a machine learning model over the weekend right now, you just have to go to Google, you have to find kind of the, you know they have the data sets you want to basically build a model to recognize letters and numbers, those data sets are on the internet right now and you personally yourself could go become a data scientist over the weekend. >> Gene, your take. >> Yeah I think also on top of that because of all that availability on the open software anybody can come in and start playing with AI, it's also building a really large experience base of what works and what doesn't work and because they have that now you can actually better define the problem you're shooting for and when you do that you increase you know what's going to work, what's not going to work and people can also tell you that on the part that's not going to work, how's it going to expand but I think overall though this comes back to the question of when people ask what is AI, and a lot of that is just being focused on machine learning and if it's just machine learning that's kind of a little limited use in terms of what you're classifying or not. Back in the early 80s AI back then is really what people are trying to call artificial general intelligence nowadays but it's that all encompassing piece. All the things that you know us humans can do, us humans can reason about, all the decision sequences that we make and so you know that's the part that we haven't quite gotten to but there is all the things that's why the applications that the AI with machine learning classification has gotten us this far. >> Okay machine learning is certainly relevant, it's been one of the most hottest, the hottest topic I think in computer science and with AI becoming much more democratized you guys mentioned TensorFlow, a variety of other open source initiatives been a great wave of innovation and again motivation, younger generations is easier to code now than ever before but machine learning seems to be at the heart of AI and there's really two schools of thought in the machine learning world, is it just math or is there more of a cognition learning machine kind of a thing going on? This has been a big debate in the industry, I want to get your guys' take on this, Gene is machine learning just math and running algorithms or is there more to it like cognition, where do you guys fall on this, what's real? >> If I look at the applications and look what people are using it for it's mostly just algorithms it's mostly that you know you've managed to do the pattern recognition, you've managed to compute out the things and find something interesting from it but then on the other side of it the folks working in say neurosciences, the first people working in cogno-sciences. You know I have the interest in that when we look at that, that machine learning does it correspond to what we're doing as human beings, now because the reason I fall more on the algorithm side is that a lot of those algorithms they don't match what we're often thinking so if they're not matching that it's like okay something else is coming up but then what do we do with it, you know you can get an answer and work from it but then if we want to build true human intelligence how does that all stack together to get to the human intelligence and I think that's the challenge at this point. >> Bob, machine learning, math, cognition is there more to do there, what's your take? >> Yeah I think right now you look at machine learning, machine learning are the algorithms we use, I mean I think the big thing that happened to machine learning is the neural network and deep learning, that was kind of a mild stepping stone where we got through and actually building kind of these AI behavior things. You know when you look what's really happening out there you look at the self driving car, what we don't realize is like it's kind of scary right now, you go to Vegas you can actually get on a driving bus now, you know so this AI machine learning stuff is starting to happen right before our eyes, you know when you go to the health care now and you get your diagnosis for cancer right, we're starting to see AI in image recognition really start to change how we get our diagnosis. And that's really starting to affect people's lives. So those are cases where we're starting to see this AI machine learning stuff is starting to make a difference. When we think about the AI singularity discussion right when are we finally going to build something that really has human behavior. I mean right now we're building AI that can actually play Jeopardy right, and that was kind of one of the inspirations for my company Mist was hey, if they can build something to play Jeopardy we should be able to build something answer questions on par with network domain experts. So I think we're seeing people build solutions now that do a lot of behaviors that mimic humans. I do think we're probably on the path to building something that is truly going to be on par with human thinking right, you know whether it's 50 years or a thousand years I think it's inevitable on how man is progressing right now if you look at the technologically exponential growth we're seeing in human evolution. >> Well we're going to get to that in the next question so you're jumping ahead, hold that thought. Ed, machine learning just math, pattern recognition or is there more cognition there to be had? Where do fall in this? >> Right now it's, I mean it's all math, so we collect something some data set about the world and then we use algorithms and some representation of mathematics to find some pattern, which is new and interesting, don't get me wrong, when you say cognition though we have to understand that we have a fundamentally flawed perspective on how maybe the one guiding light that we have on what intelligence could be would be ourselves right. Computers don't work like brains, brains are what we determine embody our intelligence right, computers, our brains don't have a clock, there's no state that's actually between different clock cycles that light up in the brain so when you start using words like cognition we end up trying to measure ourselves or use ourselves as a ruler and most of the methodologies that we have today don't necessarily head down that path. So yeah that's kind of how I view it. >> Yeah I mean stateless those are API kind of mindsets, you can't run Kubernetes in the brain. Maybe we will in the future, stateful applications are always harder than stateless as we all know but again when I'm sleeping, I'm still dreaming. So cognition in the question of human replacement. This has been a huge conversation. This is one, the singularity conversation you know the fear of most average people and then some technical people as well on the job front, will AI replace my job will it take over the world is there going to be a Skynet Terminator moment? This is a big conversation point because it just teases out what could be and tech for good tech for bad. Some say tech is neutral but it can be shaped. So the question is will AI replace humans and where does that line come from. We'll start with Ed on this one. What do you see this singularity discussion where humans are going to be replaced with AI? >> So replace is an interesting term, so there I mean we look at the last kind of Industrial Revolution that happened and people I think are most worried about the potential of job loss and when you look at what happened during the Industrial Revolution this concept of creative destruction kind of came about and the idea is that yes technology has taken some jobs out of the market in some way shape or form but more jobs were created because of that technology, that's kind of our one again lighthouse that we have with respect to measuring that singularity in and of itself. Again the ill defined definition, or the ill defined notion of intelligence that we have today, I mean when you go back and you read some of the early papers from psychologists from the early 1900s the experiment specifically who came up with this idea of intelligence he uses the term general intelligence as kind of the first time that all of civilization has tried to assign a definition to what is intelligent right? And it's only been roughly 100 years or so or maybe a little longer since we have had this understanding that's been normalized at least within western culture of what this notion of intelligence is so singularity this idea of the singularity is interesting because we just don't understand enough about the one measure ruler or yardstick that we have that we consider intelligence ourselves to be able to go and then embed that inside of a thing. >> Gene what's your thoughts on this, reasoning is a big part of your research you're doing a lot of research around intent and contextual, all these cool behavioral things you know this is where machines are there to augment or replace, this is the conversation, your view on this? >> I think one of the things with this is that that's where the downs still lie, if we have bad intentions, if we can actually start communicating then we can start getting the general intelligence yeah I mean sort of like what Ed was referring to how people have been trying to define this but I think one of the problems that comes up is that computers and stuff like that don't really capture that at this time, the intentions that they have are still at a low level, but if we start tying it to you know the question of the terminator moment to the singularity, one of the things is that autonomy, you know how much autonomy that we give to the algorithm, how much does the algorithm have access to? Now there could be you know just to be on an extreme there could be a disaster situation where you know we weren't very careful and we provided an API that gives full autonomy to whatever AI we have to run it and so you can start seeing elements of Skynet that can come from that but I also tend to come to analysis that hey even with APIs, while it's not AI, APIs a lot of that also we have the intentions of what you're going to give us to control. Then you have the AI itself where if you've defined the intentions of what it is supposed to do then you can avoid that terminator moment in terms of that's more of an act. So I'm seeing it at this point. And so overall singularity I still think we're a ways off and you know when people worry about job loss probably the closest thing that I think that can match that in recent history is the whole thing on automation, I grew up at the time in Ohio when the steel industry was collapsing and that was a trade off between automation and what the current jobs are and if you have something like that okay that's one thing that we go forward dealing with and I think that this is something that state governments, our national government something we should be considering. If you're going to have that job loss you know what better study, what better form can you do from that and I've heard different proposals from different people like, well if we need to retrain people where do you get the resources from it could be something even like AI job pack. And so there's a lot of things to discuss, we're not there yet but I do believe the lower, repetitive jobs out there, I should say the things where we can easily define, those can be replaceable but that's still close to the automation side. >> Yeah and there's a lot of opportunities there. Bob, you mentioned in the last segment the singularity, cognition learning machines, you mentioned deep learning, as the machines learn this needs more data, data informs. If it's biased data or real data how do you become cognitive, how do you become human if you don't have the data or the algorithms? The data's the-- >> I mean and I think that's one of the big ethical debates going on right now right you know are we basically going to basically take our human biases and train them into our next generation of AI devices right. But I think from my point of view I think it's inevitable that we will build something as complex as the brain eventually, don't know if it's 50 years or 500 years from now but if you look at kind of the evolution of man where we've been over the last hundred thousand years or so, you kind of see this exponential rise in technology right from, you know for thousands of years our technology was relatively flat. So in the last 200 years where we've seen this exponential growth in technology that's taking off and you know what's amazing is when you look at quantum computing what's scary is, I always thought of quantum computing as being a research lab thing but when you start to see VC's and investing in quantum computing startups you know we're going from university research discussions to I guess we're starting to commercialize quantum computing, you know when you look at the complexity of what a brain does it's inevitable that we will build something that has basic complexity of a neuron and I think you know if you look how people neural science looks at the brain, we really don't understand how it encodes, but it's clear that it does encode memories which is very similar to what we're doing right now with our AI machine right? We're building things that takes data and memories and encodes in some certain way. So yeah I'm convinced that we will start to see more AI cognizance and it starts to really happen as we start with the next hundred years going forward. >> Guys, this has been a great conversation, AI is real based upon this around theCUBE conversation. Look at I mean you've seen the evidence there you guys pointed it out and I think cloud computing has been a real accelerant with the combination of machine learning and open source so you guys have illustrated and so that brings up kind of the final question I'd love to get each of you's thought on this because Bob just brought up quantum computing which as the race to quantum supremacy goes on around the world this becomes maybe that next step function, kind of what cloud computing did for revitalizing or creating a renaissance in AI. What does quantum do? So that begs the question, five ten years out if machine learning is the beginning of it and it starts to solve some of these problems as quantum comes in, more compute, unlimited resource applied with software, where does that go, five ten years? We'll go start with Gene, Bob, then Ed. Let's wrap this up. >> Yeah I think if quantum becomes a reality that you know when you have the exponential growth this is going to be exponential and exponential. Quantum is going to address a lot of the harder AI problems that were from complexity you know when you talk about this regular search regular approaches of looking up stuff quantum is the one that allows you now to potentially take something that was exponential and make it quantum. And so that's going to be a big driver. That'll be a big enabler where you know a lot of the problems I look at trying to do intentions is that I have an exponential number of intentions that might be possible if I'm going to choose it as an explanation. But, quantum will allow me to narrow it down to one if that technology can work out and of course the real challenge if I can rephrase it into say a quantum program while doing it. But that's I think the advance is just beyond the step function. >> Beyond a step function you see. Okay Bob your take on this 'cause you brought it up, quantum step function revolution what's your view on this? >> I mean your quantum computing changes the whole paradigm right because it kind of goes from a paradigm of what we know, this binary if this then that type of computing. So I think quantum computing is more than just a step function, I think it's going to take a whole paradigm shift of you know and it's going to be another decade or two before we actually get all the tools we need to actually start leveraging quantum computing but I think that is going to be one of those step functions that basically takes our AI efforts into a whole different realm right? Let us solve another whole set of classic problems and that's why they're doing it right now because it starts to let you be able to crack all the encryption codes right? You know where you have millions of billions of choices and you have to basically find that one needle in the haystack so quantum computing's going to basically open that piece of the puzzle up and when you look at these AI solutions it's really a collection of different things going underneath the hood. It's not this one algorithm that you're doing and trying to mimic human behavior, so quantum computing's going to be yet one more tool in the AI toolbox that's going to move the whole industry forward. >> Ed, you're up, quantum. >> Cool, yeah so I think it'll, like Gene and Bob had alluded to fundamentally change the way we approach these problems and the reason is combinatorial problems that everybody's talking about so if I want to evaluate the state space of anything using modern binary based computers we have to kind of iteratively make that search over that search space where quantum computing allows you to kind of evaluate the entire search space at once. When you talk about games like AlphaGo, you talk about having more moves on a blank 19 by 19 AlphaGo board than you have if you put 1,000 universes on every proton of our universe. So the state space is absolutely massive so searching that is impossible. Using today's binary based computers but quantum computing allows you to evaluate kind of search spaces like that in one big chunk to really simplify the aspect but I think it will kind of change how we approach these problems to Bob and Gene's point with respect to how we approach, the technology once we crack that quantum nut I don't think will look anything like what we have today. >> Okay thank you guys, looks like we have a winner. Bob you're up by one point, we had a tie for second but Ed and Gene of course I'm the arbiter but I've decided Bob you nailed this one so since you're the winner, Gene you guys did a great job coming in second place, Ed good job, Bob you get the last word. Unpacking AI, what's the summary from your perspective as the winner of Around theCUBE. >> Yeah no I think you know from a societal point of view I think AI's going to be on par with kind of the internet. It's going to be one of these next big technology things. I think it'll start to impact our lives and people when you look around it it's kind of sneaking up on us, whether it's the self driving car the healthcare cancer, the self driving bus, so I think it's here, I think we're just at the beginnings of it. I think it's going to be one of these technologies that's going to basically impact our whole lives or our next one or two decades. Next 10, 20 years is just going to be exponentially growing everywhere in all our segments. >> Thanks so much for playing guys really appreciate it we have an inventor entrepreneur, Gene doing great research at Dartmouth check him out, Gene Santos at Dartmouth Computer Science. And Ed, technical genius at Dell, figuring out how to make those machines smarter and with the software abstractions growing you guys are doing some good work over there as well. Gentlemen thank you for joining us on this inaugural Around theCUBE unpacking AI Get Smart series, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, that's a wrap everyone this is theCUBE in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier thanks for watching. (upbeat funk music)

>> Live, from Washington DC it's the Cube. Covering AWS Public-Sector Summit. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone to AWS public sector here in Washington DC, the Cube's live coverage, two-day coverage, I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Co-hosting alongside John Ferrier, and we are welcoming back to the Cube, 13 time Cube alum, Sanjay Poonen in the COO of VM-Ware. Thank you so much for coming back on the show >> VIP status, by the way. >> Yes, absolutely. >> Thank you, Rebecca. >> That's definitely VIP status. >> Yes we have a red carpet rolled out >> Delighted to be here. I've lost track of the number of times, but when you're having fun it's good. >> Exactly, so tell us a little bit about what is VM-ware's role here in the public sector, what are you doing here at this conference? >> VM-ware and AWS announced a partnership in October 2016, and it really was the coming together of the best in the public cloud, with the best in the private cloud for what we describe as the hybrid cloud opportunity. And the past two and a half years, coming up on three years pretty soon, has been incredibly exciting. We started off with some of the key industries that we felt, for us, the public sector is among our top three industries. But financial services, telco, public sector, healthcare, manufacturing, all the key industries, technology, we're looking for ways by which they could take their applications into the cloud without having to re-factor and re-platform those applications. That's a big deal because it's wasted of work, if you can lift and shift and then innovate. And that's the value we brought to the public sector and some of our earliest customers, were customers in the public sector like MIT, schools, most of the regulated industries. In the on premise world, we're very strong in almost every, civilian, military, the legislative advance, the judicial advance, the federal agency, all of them use us. Millions and millions of work loads. The question really is how is they think about modernization can they get the best manifesto of the public cloud while leveraging their VM footprint >> So some would say that modernization may not include the original VM-ware vision because a lot of the governments are tryna replace and equated old systems like coldblow, mainframes, whatever, but you guys have been around dominated the operating side of IT for a while so you're kind of seeing the first wave of virtualization, the first wave of modernization but there's some cloud native people they might see that as like "Whoa, is that old school?" So what is particular perspective on that innovation dynamic? Because a lot of the public sector investors are awakening now going "Oh my god, I can move fast with Cloud" So Cloud is bringing on a new set of disruptors in IT, you guys have already been there on the first wave of disruption, so how do balance that kind of presence, >> Yeah >> But also disruption, you might be viewed that way, I'm not sure. >> Yeah, I would say, actually, that the first wave of our free reign modernization started with this device before Cloud. Okay, in 2007 when the iPhone came out there was a significant move by big parts of the public sector to move away from blackberry, which is kind of what they use for the decade prior to that. And when we brought AirWatch, we began to see some of the earliest industries that were adopting the public sector. Many of the agencies started to look at us now, so we actually began our journey into this modernization discussion in the workplace transformation, part of the discussion before we got to Cloud. So we were prepared for some of what that looked like, for example, census 2020 that entire for all the workers something is being done with mobile devices now as opposed to paper or surveys that were done maybe 10, 20 years ago, and all powered and secured by Workspace ONE. Now, when it got to Cloud we were prepared for that because, you know, we knew a little bit of what that meant and mobile and Cloud were some of the two top discussion items that people were talking about as modernization at first under the banner of digital transformation. We had to begin to showcase to a customer that moving an application, now we're talking clients server three tier architectures as opposed to a cobalt mainframe that's really where we have but the bulk of the 886 architecture that's from virtualized VM-ware if you could take them now to the cloud and then use some of the services that these guys are building whether it's data based, whether it's artificially intelligence, machine learning, if you waste all your time in re-platforming and re-marketing an application it's that much less time you have to do some of those innovative things. And the lift and shift process once we had this sort of highway into the Cloud, so to speak, which is what VM-ware Cloud and AWS does, it became so apparent, so we are that process, we had to then work what we can talk about Fred RAM certification all of these things that I'm (inaudible) >> In AirWatch was really a critical acquisition, turns out a boom for you guys with public sector. >> Oh yeah. >> You guys had the iPhone was a driver not so much the blocking and tackling of virtualizing data centers and IT, which you had a presence in, but it was the mobility piece. >> Well since 1998, 99, since the company was founded, the public sector business of VM-ware has been very important, I mean I would say, like I said it's the top three and so, we have tremendous amount of relationships some of our biggest deals. Eight figures plus deals where done with some of the biggest and many of our partners here. >> So it's a large business. >> Large business. >> Did you break that in the numbers? >> We did but we have always said it so a top three, we have always talked about in our earnings calls, some big, large customer examples like US Army, and then , which is also a sort of representative of this community here. Safe, local education. All the universities are using us. So the footprint of VW-ware premise was well documented, well understood, lots of spent going on there. What we didn't have an access to, we had some virtual desktops, VDIs. This mobile aperture gave us a whole new banner of spending. But then the Cloud aperture is kind of taking this to a whole new level. And quite frankly if you look at the commercial sector, the overall IT spent in the world is about one trillion we track and about 150 to 200 billion of that, 15 to 20 % is being spent on the Cloud. And the public sector, governs sector is starting to track that, they are probably a little bit lagging in certain areas to commercial. But that 15 to 20 % is only going to get 30 or 40 % in the next five years. VM-ware has been one the top infrastructure companies, we are looking at our move, a bigger part of the wall of share that we gain as people move their investment to the Cloud. >> When you are thinking about the different clients and customers that you're working with, the Sled groups and then the corporate customers, what-how different are they and how, what's on the public sector's mind versus your corporate clients? And how do you manage the relationships differently? >> Yeah, we have sort of segment them at VM-ware and many companies have done the same thing into three pockets. One is who we describe as the federal public sector customers that are civilian, military and we mirror that in almost every country so Theresa here, for example, runs AWS and we have a similar type of work structure to hear in each of the key regions. The second big segment is healthcare, many of the healthcare organizations are regulated there's similar characteristics and the third is SLED, state local education. And those three pockets are very similar patterns in the way in which they buy, their CIOs are similar and they also have often very similar security requirements. So the highest maybe something like a FED and FedRAMP and we some specialized needs that they have for certain certifications on the device or certifications on the Cloud and we have to comply with all of those. But then as you get to the ones that are in the state local maybe they don't as many and higher certifications but what it's helped is to basically work with partners with a very similar across this, and the proposition on the initial transformation is really modernization of either the data center and their applications or modernization of the device. And VM-ware is very uniquely provisioned to help on both those fronts. >> And security is really top of mind >> Absolutely >> I mean we've heard on the main stage and we know how big a threat these cyber threats face. These Cyber threats pose. >> Absolutely, and if you think about aspects of security. Security has multiple aspects of where you can think of them as control points. The network, the end-point, the cloud, identity and lots of event management that is collected. These are the five biggest markets of security. In each of those areas VM-ware is starting to play more. For example, network, you know, five, six years ago people didn't think of VM-ware in that area but with NSX our leading software define networking area, we have become the lead on that segment and about half of our use cases are security related for a use case called micro-segmentation. So the government can basically segment out a set of their apps and through software, think of these as on-off switches almost like light switches only allow certain apps to access certain parts of the data center. That's very easily done through NSX. Workspace ONE, the endpoint can now be extremely secure and provide all the levels of security that Blackware provided in their proprietary devices but now on any device. So we've been systematically looking at each of these areas I would estimate about 15 to 20 % of VM-ware revenue is security related use cases and public sector this is a very, very key place where we get grilled on and we have to satisfy their level of requirements for security. >> Sanjay, what are you doing here? I know you said you are speaking at a panel, Fireside chat, what's your agenda of the week? What's the story? What some of the key talking points for VM-ware? >> VM-ware is one of the top sponsors here, I don't know whatever is global or platinum or whatever the highest level is, you will see our name's there. And largely what we did when we announced this partnership was, you know, Andy and I were classmates at school. We wanted to build a very close partnership at their big events, so you will see us at all the major summits. VM-ware is a top sponsor, and you'll see them also at >> Doubling down on the relationships. >> Yep, we're doubling down. And they're doing the same at VM-world, so we said "Listen" and I think I talked about this in one of your previous shows. If you can mingle, VM-ware has collectively about 100,000 people that come to all the VM-ware events across the world and maybe about half a million to people who watch those events online. Amazon has probably twice that number. But if we can mingle each other audiences because they are coming off into both shows and we, the best showing up at AWS summits and we'll give them lots of access to VM-world. >> Ups* >> (laughs) There we go. >> Operations >> Hey, that's got a ring to it. I like it >> That's exactly the vision. So we, first of all, VM-ware is a big presence and the acquisition we've done, also, like Cloud helped also has a big presence, so that's one. Number two, we try as often as possible to have either a key note or some kind of Provence, I've had a good friendship with Theresa. She invited me to speak, I think there's an event with their top five hundred customers, sort of a key note inside that. And I do that a little later this afternoon. And it's also a tremendous opportunity, I think they have 13 or 15,000 attendees here to meet some of our top customers, so those are the three things that I'm doing over the course of the next day and a half. >> You got the CIA deal 2013, what that has done, in gestation period since then, a lot of other folks in the DC circuit here, public sector, government, agencies, they are all going "Hmm, Amazon has got the right formula" so Theresa put the formula together, people are adopting it, you guys do the strategic deal with AWS with your AA gown on, as a student of the game if you will in tech, Sanjay, which you are, knowing what you know now at VM-ware what's your perspective on this? Because you got a big tail wind with Cloud, you get clarity in what you guys do, in what AWS does, you also have multi Cloud with other Clouds, I mean you got NSX with a nice product, you got multi Cloud built-in hybrid, I mean, pretty good at spot for VM-ware for public sector. What's your perspective on this? >> Yeah, two parts to your question. First off, tremendous respect for Andy. I was describing before I go out on the show with both of you, when we were in school, I wouldn't have put him, in 1987 when we graduated, as the person who would of been the pied piper of this public Cloud revolution. But kudos to him, Theresa a fantastic executive and I think that, you know, 2013 CIA deal put them on an incredible place to be, a front runner in this and many other deals they've done similarly. VM-ware, we saw over the last, you know, 3, 4, 5 years is a significant rise of Amazon in our accounts. Customers were asking us "Why can't we get the best of both worlds? Why does it have to be on premise runs and VM-ware and public lines and I've got to portent and refactor and re platform my applications?" So our customers drove a us together and what we've sort to do in our relationship with Amazon is we meet on a quarterly basis, we review feature and function, product road map, we're aggressive, with our sales teams are trying to pursue opportunities together. And that's really helped us, you know, that's part of the reason I'm here, so, the more that we can do together to satisfy customers, customers like seeing big partners come together, even if, it feels a little bit like Berlin wall moment, right? You remember 1987? You had the US and Soviet Union and people were surprised by that. I that that the general consensus was complete surprise in 2016 when we announced the project with Amazon. But with every move we made like for instance, recently we announced the FedRAM status, one of our biggest 8 figure deals we had announced in our queue for was with a major customer that's in this segment, actually. Our public sector SLED and the more that we can do this, I think there's a lot of future ahead of us. >> Berlin is interesting, you know, tearing down that wall that was a moment that came down and the government, the theme that we are hearing over and over again is red tape. Lag with data it hurts application work loads so fast data, make it available, cut the read tape out of procurement, I mean, basically, 1980s, 1990s, procurement rules don't apply to how people consume and deploy technology today. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Tear down that red tape. >> I think you got that right. I think the governments mandate to go Cloud first in the, you know, last several administrations was absolutely key and certain elementary work loads like websites, I mean why, so if it's a public website that's holding public information, I mean, of course, you've got to worry about security but the data public anyway. Okay, so, what's going to get hacked? I mean, why don't you move all websites that are web content, so some of those early work loads are moved over very easy. I would call it so, the 1-O-1 of posting. Why would you want to have server just to host a website? But once that's done the more mission critical applications, Windows work loads, Oracle's sequel service databases, Virtual desktops, now you are starting to see and I think eventually some of the more mission critical apps like SAP or Oracle apps, I think you see them also now with a lot of customers in both public sectors and commercial- >> Military DOD tactical edges, >> Absolutely. >> The military lives are on the line, it's not a video game, lag actually will kill people. So you want to have that application peaked. >> Exactly. >> With the right architect >> One of the things that are so inspiring about being here at the public sector summit is that we are seeing all these used cases, of using the Cloud for good to solve pressing environmental challenges, health challenges, social challenges, what are you seeing, what is VM-ware working on that is, that is particularly inspiring to you? >> I am glad you asked that Rebecca. I would say that's one the things and Amazon shares a similar value where we think that, you know, technology companies have to think beyond themselves and be a force for good. I think that one of the first times at any major conference, last year we had the Nobel Peace Prize winner who's changed the world, Malala, come and speak and I think everyone who comes to major tech conferences, and we had one of the biggest conferences, was, I mean, we had grown big men, 6 foot tall crying at the end of that. And we had a number of customers that we loved to be able to talk about there stories, Make A wish is an example of an organization that, you know, if someone's with a terminal disease and they want to have some wish that they could wish for, all the infrastructure runs in VM-ware and we can help them serve that audience better, we have a number of charitable organization, Red Cross was on (unintelligible), so we, a big part of pad mind the attire of companies, kind of charter in our EPICC values has been people of integrity, people of work with the customers and the community. Our values EPICC stands for execution, passion, integrity customer and community. And that last C I think is very important, cause, you know, we live in a world and the more important thing is not necessarily how much money you make but what a force you can be for changing people's life. That lasts forever. You can't take your money into the grave but the more you can have on people, impact on people's lives, I mean, John, I am delighted to see your daughter. >> Yeah. >> I mean that generation continues >> Well, it's community right? >> And you're passing on those values onto the next generation or helping people that's the bigger story of life and that gets us equally excited as innovation. >> Communities can now be instrumented via digital technologies, so your faster time to find truth, people who have communities were very active, the data is there, it's all in the data and so you can see the impact >> You know, I think that's absolutely key. So John, I would agree with you and I think you as, you know, you talk to companies that's an important question to ask them. Because we are all in this together. There is no whether it's competitors or what's not, we can all serve the greater community, here for good and make this world a better place, you know there is a lot of what we do that helps the world run better, that's good, infrastructure helps us run better, but helping the world be a better place, it takes both individual and collective will. >> Well one of the talent gaps is not just computer programming and tech people it's architects for the new society that needs help and these key policy questions like governance and responsibilities, you're seeing YouTube and Facebook and our neck of the woods responsible for all this impact and they don't really kind of, there's no oversight. (laughs) >> Well, listen I'm not going to get into the public debate about, you know, privacy and governance and so on. I would say that one thing that, you know, we're also really excited to kind of give back to the community in terms of education. One of the things that is very powerful to VM-ware is our user groups. We call them V-mugs, VM-ware user groups and there's collectively about 150, 200000 of them and it's amazing when you spend time with them, they are really, really, they are members of the community really because they're customers and partners and they dedicate their time to educating others and the more that we can use online forums, I love the way in which you're using your online platform with the AI and other techniques. I think artificial intelligence becomes the ground equalizer, give access to everybody. >> Access to the voice is access to the data but right now as you pointed out we need a society that's going to have shared values and I think that's like where the good is coming from and it's easy to get on the bad tech band wagon which everyone is on right now but there are examples of tech for good, you mentioned- >> But when you say shared values, is that you, I mean is that possible? >> Well, I think there is, there is an awakening going on now from Silicon Valley where I live and here in DC which it's, it's in my face here because people as tech savvy here as they are in say Silicon Valley, no offense, but those people aren't as tech savvy here as they are in Silicon Valley, they don't go deep on the impact of tech but they see the results of bad tech. So I don't see a lot of a vandalizing going on outside of certain areas around tech for good. So I think there's a lot of great examples, human trafficking, you're seeing tech for hiring, new generations onboard training, skills gap, so efficiencies in healthcare, there is so many areas that tech could be used for good and if people were educated on focusing on that and not the bad, I mean bad's got to eradicated, certainly, I'm not for bad things but maybe there's a lot more good, the good pile is much bigger than the bad pile in tech, so, when I say shared values is recognition of that which is let's get on the same page, there's bad and there's good, have that debate and then apply the tech. >> Yeah, interesting. It's a galvanizing force. >> Well, it's just like any invention whether it's the printing press or the use of fire, I mean, there is good use of it and there's bad use of it. And we got to to find ways by which technology while this debate is going on as to as some of these social media platforms, my fundamental belief is that technology is going to transform society, the reason I came to the United States as an immigrant was to study computer science and I felt like the United States had, you know, when I came to this college I hade never heard of called Dartmouth College in Haven New Hampshire, was very fortunate to have a scholarship to go there but that's because I wanted to study computer science and I felt like computer science could change a lot of the way at which, you know, at that time, I was just trying to program and learn how to, you know, create algorithms but if you look at what transformed every aspect whether it's the mobile device which is really a computer in your pocket or Cloud computing which is kind of bringing the super computer into the Cloud. >> (inaudible) >> I think it's tremendous what we can do and we have to constantly find ways by which artificial intelligence and these forces of, you know, the next part of general mobile, Cloud computing can be used for greater good. >> Did you go to scholarship on full bode with basketball? (all laugh) >> Man, we got the Warriors with two ball games. >> So you are a big Warriors and for the folks that don't know Sanjay, we always used to talk about every time Warriors looking good to stay alive but not looking good >> So sad to see. I mean it's sort of, the last game I was watching last night, it was, it was sad, it was, of course, it was a win but also a loss to see KD go down that way was just absolutely tearful, yeah, but, you know, we have one more game. >> It's going to be hard >> It's going to be hard to, you know, kind of beat the crowd and the crowd is really loud at Oracle and get one more game and then, yeah, I think it'll get to game 7, we'll what happens but it's just great to their heart. >> I'm from Boston so I'm kind of over Golden state but I am sure everyone is over Boston and our red socks and our throw-ins and our pads >> Duck tour has only been 15 months? >> I know exactly! Exactly! We're still- >> There will be a Celtic warriors game >> That would have been so good >> That would have been so good like the Lakers (inaudible) >> It was more recent than that. It was the pads victory, so yeah >> Okay >> Yeah, anyway. Just saying, just saying. Sanjay, thank you so much for coming back on The cube, we look forward to your 14th visit on the show. >> Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, John. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Ferrier, stay tuned for more AWS public sector summit here in Washington DC. (Upbeat Music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's The Cube covering Dell Technologies World 2018. Brought to you by Dell EMC and its ecosystem partners. >> We're back at Dell Technologies World. It's the inaugural Dell Technologies World. You're watchin' The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vallante, and I'm really excited to have Sanjay Poonen on, COO of VMWare, long-time Cube alum. Great to see you, my friend. >> Always great, Dave. >> Thanks again so much for makin' time. I know you're in and out, but things are good. We had Pat on, on Monday. You guys made the call early on. You said to the industry, you know, I think the industry handed us and maybe the forecasts are a little bit conservative. We're seeing great demand. We love our business right now, and it's comin' true. Data centers booming, VMWare's kickin' butt. It's goin' great. >> You know it's been obviously a very good couple of years, since the Dell EMC merger. It's really helped us, and you know, when we think about our partnerships, we put this in a very special place. In the last two years, partnerships like Dell and AWS have been very instrumental, built on top of the partnerships we've had for many years. And our core principles at VMWare have not changed. We're really focused on software defining the data center. Why? Because it makes you more agile, removes costs, reduces complexity, makes the planet more green. We think we've got a long way to go in just building that private cloud, making the data center feel like a cloud. That's priority number one. Priority number two, extending tno the hybrid cloud. Last time we talked was at AWS Reinvent. That's very important. We're doing a bit of work there at AWS and many other clouds. And user computing, making sure that every one of these type of devices are secure and managed, whether it's Apple devices, Google, or Microsoft. Those three priorities have still stayed the same, and now Dell's comin' to give us a lot more of that sort of draft, to help us do that inside the Dell EMC customer base, too. >> Yeah, I mean you guys are doin' it again, the whole, NSX obviously is booming. >> Sanjay: Big launch this week. >> You know, it's funny, the whole software-defined networking thing. Everybody flocked to it. VCs flocked to it. You guys changed the game with that Nycera acquisition. I mean, could you imagine, I guess you did imagine what it was going to become, I mean it's really taken off in a big way. >> Bold move. I got to give credit to the, I mean I wasn't at the company at the time, but I got to tell you, when I saw that I was stunned. Paying 1.2 billion for a company that didn't have much revenue. But here we are. We talked about it in our earnings call being a 1.4 billion one rate business. 4,500 hundred customers. We were zero customers five years ago when we did the acquisition, and what we really defined is that the future of networking is going to be software-defined, clearly, and it's much the same way a Tesla is transforming the automotive industry, right? What's the value of a Tesla? It's not just the hardware, but the software that's changing the way in which you drive, park, all of the mapping, all of that stuff. We believe the same way the networking industry's going to go through mighty revolution. We think the data center gets more efficeint and driven through software. The path into the into the public cloud, and the path to the branch, and that's what we as we launched our virtual cloud networking. It's extremely differentiated in the industry. We're the only ones really pioneering that, and we think it's extremely visionary. And we're excited to take our customers on this journey. It was a big launch for us this week, and we think NSX is just getting started. 4500 customers is about 1% of our roughly 500,000 customers Every single one of them should be looking at NSX. Big opportunity ahead of us. >> Huge. And the cloud play, we talked about this at VM World last summer. The clarity now that your customers have. They can now make bets for a couple of cycles anyway, really having confidence in your cloud strategy. You've seen that, I'm sure, in your customer base. >> We have, and you know, it started off by telling the world that the 4,000 service providers that have built their stack on VMWare, VMWare Cloud Providers, VCPP, are all going to be very special to us as they build out their clouds, often in many specialized country that have country-specific cloud requirements. But the we're going to take the public clouds and systematically start working them. IBM cloud was the first, When they acquired software we had a strong relationship with them, announced two or three years ago. And then I think the world was shocked. It was almost, as I've described on the media, a Berlin Wall moment, when AWS and VMWare came together because it sort of felt like the United States and Soviet German in 1987, okay? And you know, here we have these two companies, really workin'. That's worked out very well for us, and then we've done systematic other things with Azure, Google, and so on and so forth, and we'll see how the public cloud plays out, but we think that that hybrid cloud bridge. We're going to be probably the only company who can really play a very pivotal role in the world moving from private cloud to public cloud and there's going to be balance on both sides of that divide. >> So you really essentially are trying to become the infrastructure for the digital world now, aren't you? Talk about that a little bit. You're seeing new workloads, obviously AI's all the buzz. You guys are doing some work in blockchains. It's going to take a while for all that to pick up, but really it's the ability and containers is the other thing. Everybody thought, oh containers, that's the end of VMs, and Pat at the time said, no no no, you guys don't understand. Let me explain it. He sort of laid it out. You seem to be embracing that, again embracing change. >> I got to tell you, that one for me because I'll tell you when I first joined the company four and a half years ago, I was at SAP. I asked Pat two questions. I said the public cloud's going to, I mean, probably take out VMWare, aren't you concerned with Amazon. Here we are taking that headwind and making a tailwind. The second was like, everyone's talking about Docker. Aren't containers going to just destroy VMs? And that one wasn't as clear to us at the time, but we were patient. And what happened we started to notice in the last few years. We began to notice on GitHub tremendous amount of activity around Kubernetes, and here comes Google almost taking the top off of a lot of you know parts of Docker Two, Docker Swarm, Enterprise, Docker still remains a very good container format, but the orchestration layers become a Google-based project called Kubernetes. And I think our waiting allowed us and pivotal to embrace Google in the partnership that we announced last year. And we plan to become the de facto enterprise container platform. If VMs became the VM in VMWare and we have 500,000 customers, tens of millions of VMs, you'd think we could multiply those VMs by some number to get number of containers. VMWare has its rightful place, a birthright, to become the de facto enterprise container platform. We're just getting started, both between us and Pivotal, the Kubernetes investment, Big deal. And we're going to do it in partnership with companies like Google. >> I want to ask you about Pivotal. When Joe Tucci was the swansong in the MC world, he came out with an analyst meeting and we asked them, if you had a mulligan, you know, what would you do over again. He said, you know, we're going to answer it this way. He said, I wished I had done more to bring together the family, you know, the federation. We laid that vision out, and I probably, he said, personally I probably could've done more. I feel like Michael has taken this on. I almost feel like Joe, when he laughs at Michael. My one piece of advice is do a better job than I did with that integration. And it seems like Michael's takin' that on as an outsider. What can you tell us about the relationship between all the companies, particularly Pivotal. >> Yeah, you know Joe's a very special man, as our chairman, and Joe and Pat are the reasons I joined VMWare, and so I have tremendous respect for them. And he stayed on as an advisor to Mike O'Dell. And I think Mike O'Dell just took a lot of those things and improved on it. I wouldn't say that anything was dramatically bad, but you know he tightened up much of the places where we could work together. One material change was having the Dell EMC reps carry quota, for example VMWare. They're incetivized. That has been a huge difference to allow us to have our sales forces completely align together. Big big huge difference. I mean, sales people care about our product when they're compensated, carry quota on it, and drive it. The second aspect was in many of these places where Dell and VMWare or VMWare and Pivotal were needed to just take obstacles out of the way, and I don't think Pivotal would've been really successful if it had stayed in VMWare four or five years ago. So Paul Mertz leaving, the genius of that whole move, which Joe orchesthrated, and allowing them to flourish. Okay, here they have four or five years, they've gone public. They have a tremendous amount of traction. Then last year, we began to see that Kubernetes Coming back allowed us to get closer to them, okay? We didn't need to do that necessarily by saying that Pivotal needs to be part of VMWare. We just needed to build a joint engineering effort around Kubernetes And make that enormously successful. So you get the best of both worlds. We're an investor, obviously, in Pivotal. We're proud of their success in the public markets. We benefit some from that sort of idea process, but at the same time we want to make sure this Kubernetes Effort and the broader app platform, our cloud foundry, is enormously successful, and every one of our customers who have VMs starts looking containers. >> Well, I always said Pivotal was formed with a bunch of misfit toys that just didn't seem to fit into VMWare. >> Sanjay: It's come a long way. >> And you took that, but it was smart because you took it and said, here it is. Let's start figuring that out. Who better to do that than Paul? And it's really come together and obviously a very successful. >> Yeah, Rob, Scott, Bill, Yara, many of that team there. They're passionate about developers, okay? We understand the infratstructure role very well, but when you can get dev and ops together, in a way they collaborate, so we're excited about it. And we have a key part for us, we have a very simple mission: to make the container platform just very secure. What's the differenetiation between us and other companies trying to build container platforms? NSX? So our contribution into that is to take Kubernetes Watch for some of the management capabilities, and then add NSX to it, highly differentiate it. And now all of a sudden customers say, this is the reason why I mean, 'cause every container brings a place where the port could be insecure. NSX makes that secture, and we think that that's another key part to what's made NSX the launch this week extremely sepcial is that its story relates to cloud and containers. Those two Cs, I would say, cloud and containers. We've taken what were headwinds to us, VMWare over the last four or five years, and made them tailwinds. And for us that's been a tremendous learnnig lesson, not just I would say in our own technology road map, but in leadership and management. That's important for us as business leaders, too. >> Dave: And I got to give some love to my friends in the Vsin world, Yen Bing and those guys. Obviously Vsin doin' very well. Give us the update there. I mean, you're doin', he's doin' exactly what you said: we're going to do to networking and storage what we did to compute. >> I mean, again you know, when we start things off. If you'll remember, three or four years ago, we were confusing EMC and VMWare, Evo, Rails, some of those things. We just had to clean that up. And as Dell EMC came together and VMWare, we said, listen. We're going to do software-defined storage really well because it has a very close synergy point to the Kubernetes I mean, we know a lot about storage because it's very closely connected to Compute. And if we could do that better than anybody else, and in the meantime all these startups were doing reasonably well, Simplicity, Nutanics, Pivotry, so on and so forth. I mean there's no reason if we don't have our act together we could build the best software-defined storage and then engineer a system together with Dell that has the software, and that's what VX rails has become. So a few false stubs of the toe when we started off, you know three or four years ago, but we've come a long way. Pat talked about over 10,000 customers at the revenue run rate that we announced last year, and a 600 million run rate at the end of Q4. We believe we are, for just the software piece, we are the de facto leader, and we have to continue to make customers happy and to drive, you know, this as the future of hyper converge infrastructure because converged had its place. And now the coming together of Compute Storage, over time networking with a layer of management, that's the future of the data center. >> Yeah, I was watching. THere's some good, interesting maneuvering goin' on in the marketplace. A lot of fun for a company like ours to watch. I want to talk about leadership. There's a great, you got to go to Sanjay's LinkedIn profile. There's an awesome video on there. It's like a mini TED talk that some of your folks mashed up and put out there. It's only about eight minutes. But I want to touch on some of the things that I learned from that video. Your background, I mean I knew you came from India. You came over at 18 years old, right? >> Sanjay: I was very fortunate. I grew up in a poor home in India, and I came here only because I got a scholarship to go to Dartmouth College. And I think I might have been one of the few brown-skinned guys in Hanover, New Hampshire. I mean, you've been there, you know there's not much Indian goin' on here. (laughter) But I'm very forutnate. And this country is a very special country to immigrants, if you work hard and if you're willing to apply yourself. I'm a product of that hard work. And now as an Indian American living in California. So I feel very fortunate for all that both the country and people who invested in me over the last many decades have helped me become who I am. >> So you were on a scholarship to Dartmouth. >> Yes, that's right. >> As a student in India. So obviously an accomplished student in India, and you said, you know, I got bullied a little bit. I had the glasses, right? Somebody once told me, Dave, don't peak in high school. It's good advice, right? So it was funny to hear you tell that story because I see you as such a charismatic, dynamic leader. I can't picture you as, you know, a little kid getting bullied. >> We were always geeks at one point in time, but one of the things my mother and dad always taught me, especially my mom, who had a tremendous influence on my life and is my hero, is, listen, don't worry what people say about you, okay? Your home is always going to feel a safety and a fortress to us, and I appreciate the fact that irrespective of what happened on the playground, if I was bullied, at home I knew it was secure. And I seek to have that same attitude twoards my children and everybody I consider my extended family, people at work, and so on and so forth. But once you've done that, you don't build your identity just to what people say about you. You're going to build your identity over what's done over a long period of time, okay? With, of course, if everybody in the world hates you, that's a tough place. That's happened to a few people in the world. I wasn't in that state at all. And as I came to this country, just got tougher because I was a minority in a place. But many of those lessons I learned as a young boy helped me as an 18 year old, as I came here, and I'm very thankful for that. >> And you came here with no money, alright? >> A scholarship. >> Right. >> Maybe 50 bucks in the pocket. >> You had 50 bucks and an opportunity, and made the most of it. And then obviously you did very well at Dartmouth. You graduated from Harvard, right? >> I did my MBA at Harvard. >> MBA at Harvard, probably met some interesting people there. >> Andy Jackson being one of them. >> I know he's a friend of yours. >> Sam Berg, who's the head of the client business, was also a classmate of mine at HBS. The '97 class of HBS had some accomplished people: Chris Kapensky is running McDonald's. She's President of US. So I'm very fortunate to have some good classmates there. >> So what did you do? Did you go right to Harvard from? >> No, I spent four years working at Apple. And then went back to do my business school. >> And then what'd you do after that? >> I came back to Silicon Valley at a startup. I was one of the founding product managers at AlphaBlocks. Then went to Informatica. And bulk of my time was at SAP, and most of my life was in the analytics, big data business. What we called big data at the time. >> And that's when we first met it. >> Analytics at BI, and then when Joe and Pat called me for this, the end-user computing role at VMWare four and a half years ago. That's when I came to VMWare. >> And that was a huge coup for VMWare. We knew you from SAP, and that business was struggling. You always give credit to your team, of course. Awesome. Which is what a good leader does. The other thing I wanted to touch on before we break is, you talked about leadership and how importatn it is to embrace cahnge. You said you have three choices when change hits you. What are those three choices? >> You either embrace it, okay? You either stand on the sidelines or you leave. And that's typically what happens in any kind of change, whether it's change in work, change in fafmilies, change in other kinds of religious settings, I mean it's a time-old prinicple. And you want to let the people who are not on board with it leave if they want to leave. The people who are staying in the middle and not yet convinced, you'll hope they'll do. But they cannot yet throw the grenades, 'cause then they're just going to be. And you want to take that nucleus of people who are with you in the change to help you get the people who sit on the sidelines in. And to me when I joined VMWare, the end-user computing team had the highest attrition, okay, and the lowest satisfaction. And I found the same thing. There were popel who were leaving in droves. Some people sittin' on the sidelines, but a core group of people I loved that were willing to really work with me, 'cause I didn't really know a lot about it. The smarter people were in the team and some people that we hired in. We had to take that group and become the chagne agents, and when that happens it's a beautiful thing because from within starts to form this thing that's the phoenix rising out of the ashes. And the company, and then these people who are sidelineers start to get involved. New people want to join. Now everybody wants to be part of the end-user computing team at VMWare because we're a winner, but it wasn't that way four and a half years ago. Same thing in cloud. How are we going to transform this cloud business to be one where, VCloudAir. We're being made fun of, like how are you ever going to compete with Amazon. We had to go through our own catharsis. We divested that business, but out of that pain point came a fundamental change. Some people left. Some people stayed, but I'm just grateful through all of this that we learned a tremendous amount. I think change is the most definitive thing that happens to every company, and you have to embrace it. If you embrace chance, it's going to make you a much stronger leader. I'll tell you, the Mandarin word, okay, for crisis is two symbols: one that shows disaster and one that shows opportunity. I choose the opportunity side. >> Dave: You choose? Right? Yeah! >> And eveyrone makes that choice, right? And if you make the right path, it could be a beautiful learning experience. >> Sanjay, words to live by. Definitely check out that video on Sanjay's profile. >> It's on LinkedIn. >> Really fabulous always to sit down and talk to you. >> Always a pleasure, Dave. Congratulations to all your success. >> Dave: Thank you! I really appreaciate your support. >> Thank you. >> Alright, everybody that's it from Dell Technologies World 2018. You can hear the music behind us. Next week, big week. We've got Red Hat Summit. I'll be at Service Now Knowledge. We got a couple of other shows and tons of shows coming up. I don't know, you were at Vmon last year. I don't know if you're going to be there this year, maybe maybe not, we'll see. >> Well we got a big one coming up at VM World. We'll see you there. >> We got big one coming up, VM World, at the end of August through early September, which is back at Mosconi this year? >> It's back at Las Vegas still. One more thing and then it's going back to Mosconi after the construction's over. >> So go to theCUBE.net, check out all the shows. Thanks for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time. (digital music)