>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, Chief Research Officer for Wikibon Cube and welcome to another special digital community event. Today we are going to be presenting Wikibon's 2019 trends. Now, I'm here in our Palo Alto Studios in kind of a low tech mode. Precisely, because all our our crews are out at all the big shows bringing you the best of what's going on in the industry, and broadcasting it over The Cube. But that is okay because I've asked each of our Wikibon analysts to use a similar approach to present their insights into what would be the most impactful trends for 2019. Now the way we are going to do this is first we are going to use this video as base of getting our insights out, and then at the end we are going to utilize a crowd chat to give you an opportunity to present your insights back to the community. So, at the end of this video, please stay with us, and share your insights, share your thoughts, your experience, ask your questions about what you think will be the most impactful trends of 2019 and beyond. >> A number of years ago Wikibon predicted that cloud, while dominating computing, would not feature all data moving to the cloud but rather, the cloud experience and cloud services moving to the data. We call that true private cloud computing, and there has, nothing has occurred in the last couple of years that has suggested that we were, anyway, wrong about this prediction. In fact, if we take a look at what's going on with Edge, our expectations that increasingly Edge computing and on Premise technology, or needs, would further accelerate the rate at which cloud experiences end up on Premise, end up at the Edge, and that would be the dominant model for how we think about computing over the course of the next few years. That leads to greater distribution of data. That leads to greater distribution of places where data actually will be used. All under the aegis of cloud computing but not utilizing the centralized public cloud model that so many predicted. >> A prediction we'd like to talk about is how multi-cloud and orchestration of those environments fit together. At Wikibon, we've been looking for many years at how digital businesses are going to leverage cloud, and cloud is not a singular entity, and therefore the outcomes that you are looking for, often require that you use more than one cloud, specially if you are looking at public clouds. We've been seeing the ascendance of Kubernetes as a fundamental foundational piece of enabling this multi-cloud environment. Kubernetes is not the sole thing, and of course, you don't want to overemphasize any specific tool, but you are seeing, driven by the CNC AFT in a broad ecosystem, that Kubernetes is getting into all the platforms, both public and private cloud, and that we predict that by 2020, 90% of multi-cloud enterprise applications will use Kubernetes to lead for the enablement of their multicloud strategies. >> One of the biggest challenges that the industry is going to face over the next few years is how to deal with multi-cloud. We predict, ultimately, that a sizable percentage of the marketplace, as much as 90%, will be taking a multi--cloud approach first to how they conceive, build, and operate their high, strategic value applications that are engaging customers, engaging partners, and driving their businesses forward. However, that creates a pressing need for three new classes of Technology. Technology that provides multi-cloud inter-networking; Technology that provides orchestration services across clouds, and finally Technologies that ensure data protection across multi-cloud. While each of these domains by themselves is relatively small today, we think that over the next decade they will, each, grow into market that are tens of billions if not hundreds of billions of dollars in size. >> The picture I'd like to talk about a very few, the Robotic Process Automation, RPA. So we've observed that there's a widening gap between how many jobs are available world wide and the number of qualified candidates to fill those jobs. RPA, we believe, is going to become a fundamental approach to closing that gap, and really operationalizing artificial intelligence. Executives that we talk to in The Cube; They realize they just can't keep throwing bodies at the problem, so this so called "software robots" are going to become increasingly easy to use. And we think that low code or no code approaches to automation and automating work flows are going to drive the RPA market from its current position, which is around a billion dollars to more than ten X, or ten billion dollars plus by 2023. I predict that in 2019 what we are going to see is more containerization of AI machine learning for deployment to the Edge, throughout the multi-cloud. It's a trend that's been going on for some time. In particular, what we are going to be seeing is a increasing focus on technologies, or projects in code base such as Cube flow, which has been established in this year just gone by to support that approach for containerization of AI out to the edges. In 2019, we are going to see the big guys, like Google, and AWS, and Microsoft, and others in the whole AI space begin to march around the need for a common delatched framework suck such as Cube Flow, because really that is where many of their customers are going. The data scientists and App developers who are building these applications; They want to manage these over Kubernetes using these CNC stacks of tooling and projects to enable a degree of supportability and maintain ability and scalability around containerized intelligent applications. >> My prediction is around the move from linear programming and data models to matrix computing. This is a move that's happening very quicly, indeed, as new types of workload come on. And these workloads include AI, VR, AR, Video Gaming, very much at the edge of things. And ARM is the key provider of these types of computing chips and computing models that are enabling this type of programming to happen. So my prediction is that this type of programming is gonna start very quickly in 2019. It's going to rule very rapidly about two years from now, in 2021, into the enterprise market space, but that the preparation for this type of computing and the movement of work right to the edge, very, very close to the senses, very, very close to where the users are themselves is going to accelerate over the next decade. >> The prediction I'd like to make in 2019 is that the CNCF, as the steward of the growing cloud native stack, they'll expand the range of projects to include the frontier topics, really the frontier paradigms, in micro sources in cloud computing; I'm talking about Serverlus. My prediction is that virtual Kubelets will become an incubating project at CNCF to address the need to provide Serverlus event driven interfaces to containerize orchestrated micro sources. I'd also like to predict that VM and container coexistence will proceed apace in terms of a project such as, specially Kubevirt. I think will become also a CNCF project. And I think it will be adopted fairly widely. And one last prediction, in that vein, is that the recent working group that CNCF has established with Eclipse, around IOT, the internet of things. I think that will come to fruition. There is an Eclipse project called Ditto that uses IOT, and AI, and digital twins, a very interesting way for industrial and other applications. I think that will come under the auspices of CNC in the coming year. >> Security remains vexing to the cloud industry, and the IT industry overall. Historically, it's been about restricting access, largely at the perimeter, and once you provide through the perimeter user would have access to an entire organization's resources, digital resources, whether they be files, or applications, or identities. We think that has to change, largely as a consequence of businesses now being restructured, reorganized, and re-institutionalizing work around data. That what's gonna have to happen is a notion of zero trust security is going to be put in place that is fundamentally tied to the notion of sharing data. So, instead of restriction access at the perimeter, you have to restrict access at the level of data. That is going to have an enormous set of implication overall, for how the computing industry works. But two key technologies are essential to making zero trust security work. One is software to find infrastructure, so that you can make changes to the configuration of your security policies and instances by other software and to, very importantly, high quality analytics that are bringing the network and security functions more closely together and through the shared data are increasing the use of AI, the use of machine learning, etc and ensuring higher quality security models across multiple clouds. It's always great to hear from the Wikibon analysts about what is happening in the industry and what is likely to happen in the industry. But now, let's hear from you, so let's jump into the cloud chat as an opportunity for you to present your ideas, your insights, ask your questions, share your experience. What will be the most important trends and issues in 2019 and beyond, as far as you are concerned. Thank you very much for listening. Now let's cloud chat.

>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier cohost of the Cube, here with my cohost this week Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. Got two great guests in the industry here, Lew Tucker, the CTO of Cloud Computing for Cisco Systems and Aparna Sinha who's the group project manager for Google Cloud, thanks for coming on, great to see you guys. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously the two big players, you've got networking, you've got moving up the stack and Google Cloud with all the goodness you have hundreds of people here at this show. Cloud native big, you're cloud native, >> Aparna: Yeah. >> You guys are running the networks a lot of stuff's happening, but the big story's the Kubernetes de facto standard position that's been echoed by many people here, Kubernetes tightly controlled core with a lot of innovation going on around Kubernetes. >> Aparna: Yes. >> When I hear words like de facto standards, it reminds me of the old networking days when the OSI model and the TCPIP was forming. Massive shifts at that point. >> Lew: Yeah, yeah. >> Almost a seminal moment now. >> Yeah but in fact I think in open source it's a different notion than in the old days of standards. Here we've got multiple communities, multiple companies that are working together to create a common platform and that's what I think the success of open source is about. So actually, Kubernetes coming into CNCF has really makes that possible and we just graduated it so we should have a celebration around Kubernetes now has graduated in terms of a CNCF project. >> Yeah and you know one think I would say about de facto standard, I don't take that for granted. Kubernetes is built as a platform that runs anywhere across on premises, data centers, public clouds, runs anywhere but, you know that it will be or is a de facto standard is something that we don't take for granted. We make sure in the community that we're working on increase support for, for example different types of storage with a storage interface standard, different types of networking, with a CNI different types of run times, so establishing those interfaces and establishing those standards is key to making it the platform. But that's certainly the potential of Kubernetes is to be-- >> Yeah I mean it's not the end game, it's the beginning. >> Aparna: It is. >> And the nurturing and making sure that ecosystem with thrive is important. And that's why I want to get your thoughts, 'cause you've got Google and Cisco here so lets talk about first the relationship, you guys are working together. >> Lew: Absolutely, yeah. >> Talk about the relationship between Google and Cisco. >> Sure, I think it came about because we're both recognizing that enterprises for example are incorporating cloud computing as a part of their overall IT strategy. And so they needed to find a way, how can they actually make that happen without companies that are working in both of those areas getting together. So it's very natural I think for the two of us to sort of come together because this way we can take our enterprise customers and using Kubernetes as sort of the foundational platform make it so that they can run applications wherever they want, they can run it in their private data center they can run it in Google Cloud, and we can make this now, to provide a lot of the networking so that you can extend private networks into Google Cloud and vice versa, so I think it's a marriage made in heaven in that way. >> Aparna you're reaction to the partnership. >> Yeah, you know, Google is a very developer friendly, developer focused company, always has been, you know the majority of Google is actually developers so it's a company for developers by developers and you know with Google Cloud actually the irony is we're also a networking company and so there's a nice affinity working with Cisco. Our DNA is very much open source, there's multiple projects that have come out of Google that have been very successful open source projects. I mean Tenser Flow, Kubernetes I think is unique in that we've really created and participated and built a community around it and so with this partnership, we're really excited to have Cisco also be part of the community, certainly with Kubernetes but also the Istio Project. And a lot of the projects in cloud native have come from Google's experience running services at global scale. Kubernetes certainly came that way from the Borg heritage and then Istio also from, from what we call one platform, internally to manage service. >> That's a great point, you brought up scale and it's interesting, it's almost like you have two large scale companies here, you have Cisco with massive scale footprint of enterprises from day one, routers you need to move packets around the internet. You guys have built scale for Google with millions of services out there, millions of users, I mean it's unprecedented. So now as you come into the enterprise, the Cisco relationship is an opportunity to blend the best of Google with the footprint at Cisco, how is that going to work, how's that working and what's the vision? I mean obviously it's a nice match, you've got a great footprint in the enterprise, you've got massive scale with the cloud, bringing that in, moving it out, hybrid cloud obviously, is that the? >> Yeah well we often notice for example as I sort of said, the foundational piece is actually running Kubernetes everywhere and so we just recently announced a Cisco container platform which is based on Kubernetes, that means that enterprises now can develop applications in Google Cloud and then run them in their enterprises or vice verse and then on top of that and we're adding in the networking capabilities, through things such as CSR and things like that to allow us to connect both the enterprise and their public cloud running Kubernetes and then Istio as we're mentioning is this thing on top and I'm, as you know, a big fan of where that really is going to take us because I think one of the things that enterprises want to be able to do is that they want to be able to consume services out of Google Cloud, whether it be in kind of terms of the data services or increasingly AI, intelligence service, Tenser Flow, be able to use as a part of their enterprise applications and so I have within my team for example contributed both in terms of what we're doing in terms of Istio, Kubernetes, I've got people on my team who are bringing for example IPB6 into Kubernetes, that's important because, guess what, service providers also want to move into a container world. And then also Cube Flow and so all of these things are starting to come together so that you can start building applications as an assembly of these services and many other services that I will see coming from the public cloud and Google in particular. >> Aparna, I want to ask you, because this is important to distinguish this Istio trend because we asked a lot of people at the Cube here and in our reporting, okay what's next after Kubernetes? If you have a de facto standard, you have stuff coming around it, an eco system, everyone talks about service mesh and Istio project. >> Aparna: Yeah. >> Now the best thing about infrastructure as code which is dev ops in the cloud is you can make things programmable and automate, so if you look at what Istio's doing, it feels like an application benefit but also an automated networking concept with services. >> Aparna: Sure. >> So you got kind of a new dynamic going on where a lot of dynamic things are happening a lot of services are being provisioned, maybe for the first time. >> Aparna: Yeah, yeah. >> So how do you instrument it? This is going to be a future area of innovation. >> So again going back to that standard, right? That platform that runs everywhere, why is it a standard, why is it becoming a standard and I hear this from our customers, our users, it's because they don't have to train multiple times for multiple different environments, they can really scale their workforce, they can hire people that they trained up in Kubernetes and they can scale that workforce so it applies regardless of where they go and it gives them that mobility and if you think about the eco system around Kubernetes right so Kubernetes is one project, a major big project but then the eco system around Kubernetes has really exploded in the last year it has gone from 4000 projects to 15000 projects and I was looking through those projects and seeing you know, which are the ones that have the most stars and there's actually three projects that stood out as having more than 3000 stars but being new, like in the last year and Istio was at the top of that list and obviously it's very popular in terms of the number of stars but it's only one year old and I don't know how much people know that. >> And I think it's interesting, 'cause I'm going to throw kind of a curve ball here at you and say, you know I'm hearing that the service mesh is actually, people are using it. >> Aparna: Yes. >> But it's actually hasn't been deployed into production, is that the case? >> Aparna: It's starting to be. >> Okay. >> So on GKE, Google Kubernetes Engine we've got customers that are deploying Istio, it's starting. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Again it's a one year old project and then also on premise, using the open source and we've got a program called the EEPE program it's like an early program, they're deploying and using Istio and it tends to be a very nice attach to Kubernetes. >> So what is the use case for that? >> One of the things to understand, it is very new and less than a year old, we're not even at a one dot out yet but the components that go into it, Envoy for example has been battle tested because Istio's made up of, just to get technical, in terms of having proxies that make up the data plane and that's battle testing or whatever. So now we're adding a control plane on top of that, where policy, telemetry, observability, all of that comes to the fore. That's what's new. So bringing that together and so people have and Istio's not the only service mesh, service meshes have actually been made up of these proxies and have you manage them, Istio's just seems to be a better way to the community is agreeing-- >> A proxy can be very inefficient, so I want to just ask a question on that because one of the things that I'm trying to understand is for the average person in tech, not the inside baseball, they're trying to understand why is Istio so powerful. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So is there, what paid points are they solving? >> The easiest way to think about that is we've moved to a microservices architecture and that's so that every development team can focus on their particular area of expertise, they don't want to have to learn networking and everything else, so what we've done is we've offloaded all of the issues around how do you do load balancing, circuit breakers and telemetry off to a service mesh, that allows the developer to dramatically increase their productivity because they're only focused on their one application area and now the operations team brings that together through the networking concept. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So they built a distributed application without having to know very much about the specificity. >> Yes, it's very much that separation of concern and you know Kubernetes has the same principle, it separates you know the infrastructure from the applications and what Istio does, it allows you to manage those applications at scale, visualize them, make them secure and to control them in a scalable way, so you're not writing the service management pieces into the application and the developer is therefor freed from that burden and the application operations team can then manage things like distributing certificates or rotating certificates, right? Those are things you need to do across all of your services. >> So you're bringing us on that system and I know you guys run at scale, hundreds of thousand of services, if not more, I don't know what the number is, millions whatever it is. >> Aparna: Four million containers. >> Tons. >> Aparna: A week! >> So when you talk about that, what I'm hearing and I've talked to the SRE, site reliable engineers before, the roll of the admin is gone to more of an operator and then the operator role is less of an operating, 'cause it's operating only on exception, 'cause if you got policy in the control plane, that seems to be where the action is, is that, am I getting that right? How do you explain that notion of less admin, more operational kind of-- >> There is a change in roles, the administration of the application is not so application specific if you will, right? And I think the best analogy to it is the way we do development at Google, everybody is a developer right? And they write their services but there's a lot of common infrastructure that you do not replicate so for example storage, monitoring, logging, you know publishing your API, you know quotas, rate limiting, chargebacks, billing, all of that is common infrastructure, you write your service, it is immediately using all of that infrastructure, you don't build those things into your application and that has so many benefits, you know you can write your service and it can be global. >> So on time savings, no brainer, automation-- >> And when you change any one of those services that has a monitoring or anything, now you don't have to tell the application development team that that change is happening. >> So this is infrastructure as code, passes the test right? You can program the infrastructure. >> This is services, this is a services world, rather than infrastructure world or an application siloed world, this is the world of services, that's really what we're here for. >> What's the growth in microservices? I'm seeing different stats, can you just give an order of magnitude, just from your own personal experience in looking at the market, how fast is the notion of microservices growing? 'Cause this is really the proxy for the cloud native shift. And you guys are certainly micro services oriented, we talk about this all the time, any data or any anecdotes around growth of microservices? >> Well I mean there's a lot of surveys and most of the surveys point towards, I think containers are a good proxy, you know 88 percent of enterprises are using containers, it's becoming, whether you move to the cloud or not actually containers are basically a way of doing things more repeatedly, giving you efficiency from an infrastructure perspective giving you reliability so that you know you can basically exchange out the hardware and your container environment is still resilient and then giving you that developer productivity, that's becoming something that enterprises are embracing, it seems from these surveys and I think that's the building block for microservices. >> And I think many people are already moved, remember Soho, we've got history here, so we've been trying to move towards this world in which it is a services world and before it was much too heavyweight Ectimel RPC and everything that made it, Soap and everything else, difficult to do these things. Now things have gotten much much easier. So a lot of people are actually doing a services architecture already. And the microservices I think is just a more formal way of doing that at a finer grain and when you get to this finer grain, that's when you need something like a service mesh now to pull things back together again. >> Alright, lets do a plug for the service mesh, people that are watching have got to be intrigued by this conversation, what's the state of the service mesh piece, lot of stars so good good community vibe going on, how do they get involved, what's needed, where's the white space, where's the work being done? >> And I think also John, what skills are needed to actually as a developer, you know we've got a lot of new folks here at that show that are just learning about this and what do they need to know to actually do this and bring this back to their companies. >> If they're, so first of all it's at Istio.io so that's the place to start, there's a lot of very good documentation there, there's very simple examples that can be downloaded so that you can try it out, you can try it out we're using containers so on top of cumulating, you can do it on your laptop, you can do it in the cloud so we're in this wonderful age of the internet in fact that most of the learning is done online and that you can get everything you need online you don't have to walk away from the show with a CD pack or anything else like that. So I would encourage developers to just simply try it out by themselves. Remember then there's Istio developers, people that are actually contributing code into Istio, that's sort of a specialized group of people who are very interested in it. More people, it'll be 10 to one users of Istio than there will be actually of the Istio developer community and the Istio developer community I urge people to get involved 'cause that's where we need to expand the number of use cases and make sure that we're covering the things that are important across the board for variety. >> Yeah, I mean Istio's not that difficult to learn, it's an L7 Proxy. It has a great affinity to Kubernetes project so if you are using Kubernetes or are involved in Kubernetes project then it basically is something that you can deploy into your Kubernetes cluster and you can get started with it. There are a number of trainings and workshops actually at this conference, there were a couple of Istio trainings and there are many tracks and then there's training online, there's a tutorial on the Google site with the GKE and I think on many other companies as well to get started with Istio but it's basically a proxy and in, it's not actually only limited to Kubernetes, you can run it in a VM environment, you can, it basically any service, it is a proxy that intercepts and you know basically can provide load balancing, traffic managing, quotas, all of those things that you expect of a rich proxy and so if you have a networking background it's actually very easy to pick it up. >> That's great, now when you're talking about these kind of, you know, these proxy and things along those lines, I'm sure that there are use cases that are the first ones to pop up, can you talk a little bit about that. >> Yes, I think the first use case of Istio is actually Canary, Canary deployment, so being able to route traffic from one version of your application to another version of your application. Make sure that that, lets say it's an upgrade, you know, make sure that that's running well and then gradually route more of you're traffic. So that's a very developer centric use case that appeals and then of course security. And that's a less developer centric, more control and ops perspective and then observability and again, control, also an ops perspective, those are the three main use cases. >> Okay. >> That's great, that's awesome and you have Cube Flow going on here, you guys had a couple of Google folks on. >> Yes, so I mentioned three projects that are the top projects, Istio number one, number two is Cube Flow, again within the last year, more than 3000 stars and then the last one is Scaffold. >> Great stuff, I love the programmability, automation. >> And one of the things that we mentioned before, because when people hear proxy, they think of the old time, actually when you've used a proxy and a DNS which now it's very high performance and one of the things that you're seeing also, it connects up with other open source projects such as FDIO which is VPP, which is now being used, integrated into envoy which is a proxy, so the data plane itself, I think is going to be more efficient than people trying to do their own network. >> That's a good point Lew, I mean people think proxies are inefficient, it's a hack, a bridge between point A and point B. >> Yes, that was a lot of the initial skepticism around this, so you know, this was about two years ago we were sitting around saying okay, Kubernetes, what's next? And we came up with a open service broker, so you can consume services and then the early start of Istio, starting with Envoy and then building the service mesh around that and that was indeed one of the early concerns as well, will it be too heavy, will it add latency, will there be performance bottle neck, I think a lot of that concern has been addressed and it will continue to be addressed. >> Well we got to wrap up be I want to get some comments from you guys, reaction to the show here in Europe, obviously Google is in big force, Istio is prime time, you predicted that in Austin, it looks like it's tracking beautifully, reactions, what did you walk away with here from this event? What observations, revelations, surprises, share some color for the folks that couldn't make it. >> We were talking earlier about the number of use cases now that we've seen that our customers are coming in and describing how they're using Kubernetes and other of the technologies making up the cloud native world. And that allows people to learn and so that's what I'm always excited, because I can sit there in the audience and you can see everybody else going oh, I'm going to apply that to what I'm trying to do and just the breath now of-- >> John: So you're surprised at the uptake, or you're happy with the uptake, that's your reaction? >> Yeah and I think you would agree too. >> Yeah, I think the reason I come to KubeCon is to meet users, it's a user conference, and with each passing KubeCon, it becomes more and more user-centric so some of the talks here, the takeaways that I had, you know the folks from Spotify talked about how users need to get more involved and the benefits of getting more involved in the community, that was a very inspiring talk. Another talk yesterday talked about how Kubernetes needs to be a platform for everything, not just cloud native, but actually also Legacy and so these are points. And then the third piece, a lot of users talking about multicloud, right and making that a reality, these are things that I'm taking away as you know, users are doing this today. >> John: Multicloud certainly is a path, people have that outcome in mind. >> Yes. >> Doing the work now to get there. Thanks for coming on, Aparna and Lew. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you guys, you're awesome, senior folks in the industry, experienced executives, driving the change here, cloud native, microservices architecture, whole new modern paradigm shift in software architecture, here at KubeCon, Kubernetes, Istio, hot projects, Cube Flow and more here on the Cube, live coverage here in Copenhagen, stay with us for more coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation KubeCon 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE and we're here with two Google folks. JD Velazquez who's the Product Manager for Stackdriver, got some news on that we're going to cover, and David Aronchick, who's the co-founder of Kubeflow, also with Google, news here on that. Guys, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. >> Thank you very much. >> So we're going to have Google Next coming out, theCUBE will be there this summer, looking forward to digging in to all the enterprise traction you guys have, and we had some good briefings at Google. Ton of movement on the Cloud for Google, so congratulations. >> JD: Thank you. >> Open source is not new to Google. This is a big show for you guys. What's the focus, you've got some news on Stackdriver, and Kubeflow. Kubeflow, not Cube flow, that's our flow. (laughing) David, share some of the news and then we'll get into Stackdriver. >> Absolutely, so Kubeflow is a brand new project. We launched it in December, and it is basically how to make machine learning stacks easy to use and deploy and maintain on Kubernetes. So we're not launching anything new. We support TensorFlow and PyTorch, Caffe, all the tools that you're familiar with today. But we use all the native APIs and constructs that Kubernetes rides to make it very easy and to let data scientists and researchers focus on what they do great, and let the I.T. Ops people deploy and manage these stacks. >> So simplifying the interactions and cross-functionality of the apps. Using Kubernetes. >> Exactly, when you go and talk to any researcher out there or data scientist, what you'll find is that while the model, TensorFlow, or Pytorch or whatever, that gets a little bit of the attention. 95% of the time is spent in all the other elements of the pipeline. Transforming your data, ingesting it, experimenting, visualizing. And then rolling it out toward production. What we want to do with Kubeflow is give everyone a standard way to interact with those, to interact with all those components. And give them a great workflow for doing so. >> That's great, and the Stackdriver news, what's the news we got going on? >> We're excited, we just announced the beta release of Stackdriver Kubernetes monitoring, which provides very rich and comprehensive observability for Kubernetes. So this is essentially simplifying operations for developers and operators. It's a very cool solution, it integrates many signals across the Kubernetes environment, including metrics, logs, events, as well as metadata. So what it allows is for you to really inspect your Kubernetes environment, regardless of the role, and regardless of where your deployment is running it. >> David is bringing up just the use cases. I just, my mind is exploding, 'cause you think about what Tensorflow is to a developer, and all the goodness that's going on with the app layer. The monitoring and the instrumentation is a critical piece, because Kubernetes is going to bring the people what is thousands and thousands of new services. So, how do you instrument that? I mean, you got to know, I want to provision this service dynamically, that didn't exist. How do you measure that, I mean this is, is this the challenge you guys are trying to figure out here? >> Yeah, for sure John. The great thing here is that we, and at Google primarily, many of our ancillary practices go beyond monitoring. It really is about observability, which I would describe more as a property of a system. How do you, are able to collect all these many signals to help you diagnose the production failure, and to get information about usage and so forth. So we do all of that for you in your Kubernetes environment, right. We take that toil away from the developer or the operator. Now, a cool thing is that you can also instrument your application in open source. You can use Prometheus, and we have an integration for that, so anything you've done in a Prometheus instrumentation, now you can bring into the cloud as needed. >> Tell about this notion, everyone gets that, oh my God, Google's huge. You guys are very open, you're integrating well. Talk about the guiding principles you guys have when you think about Prometheus as an example. Integrating in with these other projects. How are you guys treating these other projects? What's the standard practice? API Base? Is there integration plans? How do you guys address that question? >> Yeah, at a high level I would say, at Google, we really believe in contributing and helping grow open communities. I think that the best way to maintain a community open and portable is to help it grow. And Prometheus particularly, and Kubernetes of course, is a very vibrant community in that sense. So we are, from the start, designing our systems to be able to have integration, via APIs and so on, but also contributing directly to the projects. >> And I think that one thing that's just leveraging off that exact point, y'know, we realize what the world looks like. There's literally zero customers out there, like, "Well, I want be all in on one cloud. "Y'know, that 25 million dollar data center "I spent last year building. "Yeah, I'll toss that out so that I can get, "y'know, some special thing." The reality is, people are multi-cloud. And the only way to solve any problem is with these very open standards that work wherever people are. And that's very much core to our philosophy. >> Well, I mean, I've been critical of multi-cloud, by the definition. Statistically, if I'm on Azure, with 365, that's Azure. If I'm running something on Amazon, those are two clouds, they're not multi-cloud, by my definition. Which brings up where this is going, which is latency and portability, which you guys are really behind. How are you guys looking at that, because you mentioned observation. Let's talk about the observation space of clouds. How are you guys looking at, 'cause that's what people are talking about. When are we going to get to the future state, which is, I need to have workload portability, in real time, if I want to move something from Azure to AWS or Google Cloud, that would be cool. Can't do that today. >> That is actually the core of what we did around Kubeflow. What we are able to do is describe in code all the layers of your pipeline, all the steps of your pipeline. That works based on any conformant Kubernetes cluster. So, you have a Kubernetes conformant cluster on Azure, or on AWS, or on Google Cloud, or on your laptop, or in your private data center, that's great. And to be clear, I totally agree. I don't think that having single workloads spread across cloud, that's not just unrealistic, because of all the things you identified. Latency, variability, unknown failures, y'know. Cap theorem is a thing because, y'know, it's well-known. But what people want to do is, they want to take advantage of different clouds for the efforts that they provide. Maybe my data is here, maybe I have a legal reason, maybe this particular cloud has a unique chip, or unique service-- >> Use cases can drive it. >> Exactly, and then I can take my workload, which has been described in code and deploy it to that place where it makes sense. Keeping it within a single cloud, but as an organization I'll use multiple clouds together. >> Yeah, I agree, and the data's key, because if you can have data moving between clouds, I think that's something I would like to see, because that's going to be, because the metadata you mentioned is a real critical piece of all these apps. Whether it's instrumentation logging, and/or, y'know, provisioning new services. >> Yeah, and as soon as you have, as David is mentioning, if you have deployments on, y'know, with public or private clouds, then the difficult part is that of severability, that we were talking before. Because now you're trying to stitch together data, and tools to help you get that diagnosed, or get signals when you need them. This is what we're doing with Stackdriver Kubernetes monitoring, precisely. >> Y'know, we're early days in the cloud. It stills feels like we're 10 years in, but, y'know, a lot of people are now coming to realize cloud native, so. Y'know, I'm not a big fan of the whole, y'know, Amazon, although they do say Amazon's winning, they are doing quite well with the cloud, 'cause they're a cloud. It's early days, and you guys are doing some really specific good things with the cloud, but you don't have the breadth of services, say, Amazon has. And you guys are above board about that. You're like, "Hey, we're not trying to meet them "speed for speed on services." But you do certain things really, really well. You mentioned SRE. Site Reliability Engineers. This is a scale best practice that you guys have bringing to the table. But yet the customers are learning about Kubernetes. Some people who have never heard of it before say, "Hey, what's this Kubernetes thing?" >> Right. >> What is your perspectives on the relevance of Kubernetes at this point in history? Because it really feels like a critical mass, de facto, standard movement where everyone's getting behind Kubernetes, for all the right reasons. It feels a lot like interoperability is here. Thoughts on Kubernetes' relevance. >> Well I think that Alexis Richardson summed it up great today, the chairperson of the technical oversight committee. The reality is that what we're looking for, what operators and software engineers have been looking for forever, is clean lines between the various concerns. So as you think about the underlying infrastructure, and then you think about the applications that run on top of that, potentially services that run on top of that, then you think about applications, then you think about how that shows up to end users. Before, if you're old like me, you remember that you buy a $50,000 machine and stick it in the corner, and you'd stack everything on there, right? That never works, right? The power supply goes out, the memory goes out, this particular database goes out. Failure will happen. The only way to actually build a system that is reliable, that can meet your business needs, is by adopting something more cloud native, where if any particular component fails, your system can recover. If you have business requirements that change, you can move very quickly and adapt. Kubernetes provides a rich, portable, common set of APIs, that do work everywhere. And as a result, you're starting to see a lot of adoption, because it gives people that opportunity. But I think, y'know and let me hand off to JD here, y'know, the next layer up is about observability. Because without observing what's going on in each of those stacks, you're not going to have any kind of-- >> Well, programmability comes behind it, to your point. Talk about that, that's a huge point. >> Yeah, and just to build on what David is saying, one thing that is unique about Google is that we've been doing for more than a decade now, we've been very good at being able to provide innovative services without compromising reliability. Right, and so what we're doing is in that commitment, and you see that with Kubernetes and Istio, we're externalizing many of our, y'know, opinionated infrastructure, and platforms in that sense, but it's not just the platforms. You need those methodologies and best practices. And now the toolset. So that's what we're doing now, precisely. >> And you guys have made great strides, just to kind of point out to the folks watching, in the enterprise, I know you've got a lot more work to do but you're pedaling as fast as you can. I want to ask you specifically around this, because again, we're still early days with the cloud, if you think about it, there are now table stakes that are on the table that you got to get done. Check boxes if you will. Certainly on the government side there's like, compliance issues, and you guys are now checking those boxes. What is the key thing, 'cause you guys are operating at a scale that enterprises can't even fathom. I mean, millions of services, on and on up a huge scale. That's going to be helpful for them down the road, no doubt about it. But today, what is the Google table stakes that are done, and what are enterprises need to have for table stakes to do cloud native right, from your perspective? >> Well, I think more than anything, y'know, I agree with you. The reality is all the hyperscale cloud providers have the same table stakes, all the check boxes are checked, we're ready to go. I think what will really differentiate and move the ball forward for so many people is this adoption of cloud native. And really, how cloud native is your cloud, right? How much do you need to spin up an entire SRE team like Netflix in order to operate in the Netflix model of, y'know, complete automation and building your own services and things like that. Does your cloud help you get cloud native? And I think that's where we really want to lean in. It's not about IAS anymore, it's about does your cloud support the reliability, support the distribution, all the various services, in order to help you move even faster and achieve higher velocity. >> And standing up that is critical, because now these applications are the business model of companies, when you talk about digital. So I tweeted, I want to get your reaction to this, yesterday I got a quote I overheard from a person here in the hallways. "I need to get away from VPNs and firewalls. "I need user application layer security "with unphishable access, otherwise I'm never safe." Again this talks about the perimeterless cloud, spearphishing is really hot right now, people are getting killed with security concerns. So, I'm going to stop if I'm enterprise, I'm going to say, "Hold on, I'm not going," Y'know, I'm going to proceed with caution. What are you guys doing to take away the fear, and also the reality that as you provision all these, stand up all this infrastructure, services for customers, what are you guys doing to prevent phishing attacks from happening, security concerns, what's the Google story? >> So I think that more than anything, what we're trying to do is exactly what JD just said, which is externalize all the practices that we have. So, for example, at Google we have all sorts of internal tools that we've used, and internal practices. For example, we just published a whitepaper about our security practices where you need to have two vulnerabilities in order to break out of any system. We have all that written up there. We just published a whitepaper about encryption and how to do encryption by default, encryption between machines and so on. But I think what we're really doing is, we're helping people to operate like Google without having to spin up an entire SRE team as big as Google's to do it. An example is, we just released something internally, we have something called BeyondCorp. It's a non-firewall, non-VPN based way for you to authenticate against any Google system, using two-factor authentication, for our internal employees. Externally, we just released it, it's called, Internet, excuse me, IdentityAware proxy. You can use with literally any service that you have. You can provision a domain name, you can integrate with OAuth, you can, including Google OAuth or your own private OAuth. All those various things. That's simply a service that we offer, and so, really, y'know, I think-- >> And there's also multi, more than two-factor coming down the road, right? >> Exactly, actually IdentityAware proxy already supports two-factor. But I will say, one of the things that I always tell people, is a lot of enterprises say exactly what you said. "Jeez, this new world looks very scary to me. "I'm going to slow down." The problem is they're mistaken, under the mistaken impression that they're secure today. More than likely, they're not. They already have firewall, they already have VPN, and it's not great. In many ways, the enterprises that are going to win are the ones that lean in and move faster to the new world. >> Well, they have to, otherwise they're going to die, with IOT and all these benefits, they're exposed even as they are, just operationally. >> Yep. >> Just to support it. Okay, I want to get your thoughts, guys, on Google's role here at the Linux Foundation's CNCF KubeCon event. You guys do a lot of work in open source. You've got a lot of great fan base. I'm a fan of what you guys do, love the tech Google brings to the table. How do people get involved, what are you guys connecting with here, what's going on at the show, and how does someone get on board with the Google train? Certainly TensorFlow has been, it's like, great open source goodness, developers are loving it, what's going on? >> Well we have over almost 200 people from Google here at the show, helping and connecting with people, we have a Google booth which I invite people to stop by and tell about the different project we have. >> Yeah, and exactly like you said, we have an entire repo on Github. Anyone can jump in, all our things are open source and available for everyone to use no matter where they are. Obviously I've been on Kubernetes for a while. The Kubernetes project is on fire, Tensorflow is on fire, KubeFlow that we mentioned earlier is completely open source, we're integrating with Prometheus, which is a CNCF project. We are huge fans of these open source foundations and we think that's the direction that most software projects are going to go. >> Well congratulations, I know you guys invested a lot. I just want to highlight that. Again, to show my age, y'know these younger generation have no idea how hard open source was in the early days. I call it open bar and open source, you guys are bringing so much, y'know, everyone's drunk on all this goodness. Y'know, just these libraries you guys bringing to the table. >> David: Right. >> I mean Tensorflow is just the classic poster-child example. I mean, you're bringing a lot of stuff to the table. I mean, you invented Kubernetes. So much good stuff coming in. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I hesitate to say we invented it. It really was a community effort, but yeah, absolutely-- >> But you opened it up, and you did it right, and did a good job. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, I'm going to see you at Google Next. theCUBE will be broadcasting live at Google Next in July. Of course we'll do a big drill-down on Google Cloud platform at that show. It's theCUBE here at KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. More live coverage after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat music)