(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Its first inaugural event. It's theCUBE's coverage. We were there at the first event for a KubeCon before CNCF kind of took it over. It was in Seattle. And so in Seattle this week is Cloud Native SecurityCon. Of course, theCUBE is there covering via our Palo Alto Studios and our experts around the world who are bringing in Bassam Tabbara who's the CEO and founder of upbound.io. That's the URL, but Upbound is the company. The creators of Crossplane. Really kind of looking at the Crossplane, across the abstraction layer, across clouds. A big part of, as we call supercloud trend. Bassam, great to see you. You've been legend in the open source community. Great to have you on. >> Thanks, John. Always good to be on theCUBE. >> I really wanted to bring you in 'cause I want to get your perspective. You've seen the movie, you've seen open source software grow, it continues to grow. Now you're starting to see the Linux Foundation, which has CNCF really expanding their realm. They got the CloudNativeCon, KubeCon, which is Kubernetes event. That's gotten so massive and so successful. We've been to every single one as you know. I've seen you there and all of them as well. So that's going great. Now they got this new event that's spins out dedicated to security. Everybody wants to know why the new event? What's the focus? Is it needed? What will they do? What's different from KubeCon? Where do I play? And so there's a little bit of a question mark in the ecosystem around this event. And so we've been reporting on it. Looking good so far. People are buzzing, again, they're keeping it small. So that kind of managing expectations like any good event would do. But I think it's been successful, which I wanted like to get your take on how you see it. Is this good? Are you indifferent? Are you excited by this? What's your take? >> I mean, look, it's super exciting to see all the momentum around cloud native. Obviously there are different dimensions of cloud native securities, an important piece. Networking, storage, compute, like all those things I think tie back together and in some ways you can look at this event as a focused event on the security aspect as it relates to cloud native. And there are lots of vendors in this space. There's lots of interesting projects in the space, but the unifying theme is that they come together and probably around the Kubernetes API and the momentum around cloud native and with Kubernetes at the center of it. >> On the focus on Kubernetes, it seems this event is kind of classic security where you want to have deep dives. Again, I call it the event operating system 'cause you decouple, make things highly cohesive, and you link them together. I don't see a problem with it. I kind of like this. I gave it good reviews if they stay focused because security is super critical. There was references to bind and DNS. There's a lot of things in the infrastructure plumbing that need to be looked at or managed or figured out or just refactored for modernization needs. And I know you've done a lot with storage, for instance, storage, networking, kernel. There's a lot of things in the old tech or tech in the cloud that needs to be kind, I won't say rebooted, but maybe reset or jump. Do you see it that way? Are there things that need to get done or is it just that there's so much complexity in the different cloud cluster code thing going on? >> It's obviously security is a very, very big space and there are so many different aspects of it that people you can go into. I think the thing that's interesting around the cloud native community is that there is a unifying theme. Like forget the word cloud native for a second, but the unifying theme is that people are building around what looks like a standardized play around Kubernetes and the Kubernetes API. And as a result you can recast a lot of the technologies that we are used to in the past in a traditional security sense. You can recast them on top of this new standardized approach or on Kubernetes, whether it's policy or protecting a supply chain or scanning, or like a lot of the access control authorization, et cetera. All of those things can be either revived to apply to this cloud native play and the Kubernetes play or creating new opportunities for companies to actually build new and interesting projects and companies around a standardized play. >> Do you think this also will help the KubeCon be more focused around the developer areas there and just touching on security versus figuring out how to take something so important in KubeCon, which the stakeholders in KubeCon have have grown so big, I can see security sucking a lot of oxygen out of the room there. So here you move it over, you keep it over here. Will anything change on the KubeCon site? We'll be there in in Amsterdam in April. What do you think the impact will be? Good? Is it good for the community? Just good swim lanes? What's your take? >> Yeah, I still think KubeCon will be an umbrella event for the whole cloud native community. I suspect that you'll see some of the same vendors and projects and everything else represented in KubeCon. The way I think about all the branched cloud native events are essentially a way to have a more focused discussion, get people together to talk about security topics or networking topics or things that are more focused way. But I don't think it changes the the effect of KubeCon being the umbrella around all of it. So I think you'll see the same presence and maybe larger presence going forward at Amsterdam. We're planning to be there obviously and I'm excited to be there and I think it'll be a big event and having a smaller event is not going to diminish the effect of KubeCon. >> And if you look at the developer community they've all been online for a long time, from IRC chat to now Slack and now new technologies and stuff like Discord out there. The event world has changed post-pandemic. So it makes sense. And we're seeing this with all vendors, by the way, and projects. The digital community angle is huge because if you have a big tent event like KubeCon you can make that a rallying moment in the industry and then have similar smaller events that are highly focused that build off that that are just connective tissue or subnets, if you will, or communities targeted for really deeper conversations. And they could be smaller events. They don't have to be monster events, but they're connected and traverse into the main event. This might be the event format for the future for all companies, whether it's AWS or a company that has a community where you create this network effect, if you will, around the people. >> That's right. And if you look at things like AWS re:Invent, et cetera, I mean, that's a massive events. And in some ways it, if it was a set of smaller sub events, maybe it actually will flourish more. I don't know, I'm not sure. >> They just killed the San Francisco event. >> That's right. >> But they have re:Inforce, all right, so they just established that their big events are re:Invent and re:Inforce as their big. >> Oh, I didn't hear about re:Inforce. That's news to me. >> re:Inforce is their third event. So they're doing something similar as CloudNativeCon, which is you have to have an event and then they're going to create a lot of sub events underneath. So I think they are trying to do that. Very interesting. >> Very interesting for sure. >> So let's talk about what you guys are up to. I know from your standpoint, you had a lot of security conversations. How is Crossplane doing? Obviously, you saw our Supercloud coverage. You guys fit right into that model where clients, customers, enterprises are going to want to have multiple cloud operating environments for whatever the use case, whether you're using ChatGPT, you got to get an Azure instance up and running for that. Now with APIs, we're hearing a lot of developers doing that. So you're going to start to see this cross cloud as VMware calls, what we call it supercloud. There's more need for Crossplane like thinking. What's the update? >> For sure, and we see this very clearly as well. So the fact that there is a standardization layer, there is a layer that lets you converge the different vendors that you have, the different clouds that you have, the different hype models that you have, whether it's hybrid or private, public, et cetera. The unifying theme is that you're literally bringing all those things under one control plane that enables you to actually centralize and standardize on security, access control, helps you standardize on cost control, quota policy, as well as create a self-service experience for your developers. And so from a security standpoint, the beauty of this is like, you could use really popular projects like open policy agent or Kyverno or others if you want to do policy and do so uniformly across your entire stack, your entire footprint of tooling, vendors, services and across deployment models. Those things are possible because you're standardizing and consolidating on a control plane on top of all. And that's the thing that gets our customers excited. That we're seeing in the community that they could actually now normalize standardize on small number of projects and tools to manage everything. >> We were talking about that in our summary of the keynote yesterday. Dave Vellante and I were talking about the idea of clients want to have a redo of their security. They've been, just the tooling has been building up. They got zero trust in place, maybe with some big vendor, but now got the cloud native opportunity to refactor and reset and reinvent their security paradigm. And so that's the positive thing we're hearing. Now we're seeing enterprises want this cross cloud capabilities or Crossplane like thinking that you guys are talking about. What are your customers telling you? Can you share from an enterprise perspective where they're at in this journey? Because part of the security problems that we've been reporting on has been because clients are moving from IT to cloud native and not everyone's moved over yet. So they're highly vulnerable to ransomware and all kinds of other crap. So another attacks, so they're wide open, But people who are moving into cloud native, are they stepping up their game on this Crossplane opportunity? Where are they at? Can you share data on that? >> Yeah, we're grateful to be talking to a lot of customers these days. And the interesting thing is even if you talked about large financial institutions, banks, et cetera, the common theme that we hear is that they bought tools for each of the different departments and however they're organized. Sometimes you see the folks that are running databases, networking, being separated from say, the computer app developers or they're all these different departments within an organization. And for each one of those, they've made localized decisions for tooling and services that they bought. What we're seeing now consistently is that they're all together, getting together, and trying to figure out how to standardize on a smaller one set of tooling and services that goes across all the different departments and all different aspects of the business that they're running. And this is where this discussion gets a lot very interesting. If instead of buying a different policy tool for each department, or once that fits it you could actually standardize on policy or the entire footprint of services that they're managing. And you get that by standardizing on a control plane or standardizing on effectively one point of control for everything that they're doing. And that theme is like literally, it gets all our customers excited. This is why they're engaging in all of this. It's almost the holy grail. The thing that I've been trying to do for a long time. >> I know. >> And it's finally happening. >> I know you and I have talked about this many times, but I got to ask you the one thing that jumps into everybody's head when you hear control plane is lock-in. So how do you discuss that lock-in, perception from the reality of the situation? How do you unpack that for the customer? 'Cause they want choice at the end of the day. There's the preferred vendors for sure on the hyperscale side and app side and open source, but what's the lock-in? What does the lock-in conversation look like? Or do they even have that conversation? >> Yeah. To be honest, I mean, so their lock-in could be a two dimensions here. Most of our customers and people are using Crossplane or using app on product around it. Most of our do, concentrated in, say a one cloud vendor and have others. So I don't think this is necessarily about multicloud per se or being locked into one vendor. But they do manage many different services and they have legacy tooling and they have different systems that they bought at different stages and they want to bring them all together. And by bringing them all together that helps them make choices about consulting or even replacing some of them. But right now everything is siloed, everything is separate, both organizationally as well as the code bases or investments and tooling or contracts. Everything is just completely separated and it requires humans to put them together. And organizations actually try to gather around and put them together. I don't know if lock-in is the driving goal for this, but it is standardization consolidation. That's the driving initiative. >> And so unification and building is the big driver. They're building out >> Correct, and you can ask why are they doing that? What does standardization help with? It helps them to become more productive. They can move faster, they can innovate faster. Not as a ton of, like literally revenue written all over. So it's super important to them that they achieved this, increase their pace of innovation around this and they do that by standardizing. >> The great point in all this and your success at Upbound and now CNCF success with KubeCon + CloudNativeCon and now with the inaugural event of Cloud Native SecurityCon is that the customers are involved, a lot of end users are involved. There's a big driver not only from the industry and the developers and getting architecture right and having choice. The customers want this to happen. They're leaning in, they're part of it. So that's a big driver. Where does this go? If you had to throw a dart at the board five years from now Cloud Native SecurityCon, what does it look like if you had to predict the trajectory of this event and community? >> Yeah, I mean, look, I think the trajectory one is that we have what looks like a standardization layer emerging that is all encompassing. And as a result, there is a ton of opportunity for vendors, projects, communities to build around within on top of this layer. And essentially create, I think you talked about an operating system earlier and decentralized aspect of this, but it's an opportunity to actually, what it looks like for the first time we have a convergence happening industry-wide and through open source and open source foundations. And I think that means that there'll be new opportunity and lots of new projects and things that are created in the space. And it also means that if you don't attach this space, you'll likely be left out. >> Awesome. Bassam, great to have you on, great expert commentary, obviously multi CUBE alumni and supporter of theCUBE and as you become successful we really appreciate your support for helping us get the content out there. And best of luck to your team and thanks for weighing in on Cloud Native SecurityCon. >> Awesome. It's always good talking to you, John. Thank you. >> Great stuff. This is more CUBE coverage from Palo Alto, getting folks on the ground on location, getting us the stories in Seattle. Of course, Cloud Native SecurityCon, the inaugural event, which looks like will be the beginning of a series of multi-year journey for the CNCF, focusing on security. Of course, theCUBE's here to cover it, every angle of it, and extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon North America 2023. Obviously, CUBE's coverage with our CUBE Center Report. We're not there on the ground, but we have folks and our CUBE Alumni there. We have entrepreneurs there. Of course, we want to be there in person, but we're remote. We've got Ben Hirschberg, CTO and Co-Founder of Armo, a cloud native security startup, well positioned in this industry. He's there in Seattle. Ben, thank you for coming on and sharing what's going on with theCUBE. >> Yeah, it's great to be here, John. >> So we had written on you guys up on SiliconANGLE. Congratulations on your momentum and traction. But let's first get into what's going on there on the ground? What are some of the key trends? What's the most important story being told there? What is the vibe? What's the most important story right now? >> So I think, I would like to start here with the I think the most important thing was that I think the event is very successful. Usually, the Cloud Native Security Day usually was part of KubeCon in the previous years and now it became its own conference of its own and really kudos to all the organizers who brought this up in, actually in a short time. And it wasn't really clear how many people will turn up, but at the end, we see a really nice turn up and really great talks and keynotes around here. I think that one of the biggest trends, which haven't started like in this conference, but already we're talking for a while is supply chain. Supply chain is security. I think it's, right now, the biggest trend in the talks, in the keynotes. And I think that we start to see companies, big companies, who are adopting themselves into this direction. There is a clear industry need. There is a clear problem and I think that the cloud native security teams are coming up with tooling around it. I think for right now we see more tools than adoption, but the adoption is always following the tooling. And I think it already proves itself. So we have just a very interesting talk this morning about the OpenSSL vulnerability, which was I think around Halloween, which came out and everyone thought that it's going to be a critical issue for the whole cloud native and internet infrastructure and at the end it turned out to be a lesser problem, but the reason why I think it was understood that to be a lesser problem real soon was that because people started to use (indistinct) store software composition information in the environment so security teams could look into, look up in their systems okay, what, where they're using OpenSSL, which version they are using. It became really soon real clear that this version is not adopted by a wide array of software out there so the tech surface is relatively small and I think it already proved itself that the direction if everyone is talking about. >> Yeah, we agree, we're very bullish on this move from the Cloud Native Foundation CNCF that do the security conference. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent. That's their big show, but they also have re:Inforce, the security show, so clearly they work together. I like the decoupling, very cohesive. But you guys have Kubescape of Kubernetes security. Talk about the conversations that are there and that you're hearing around why there's different event what's different around KubeCon and CloudNativeCon than this Cloud Native SecurityCon. It's not called KubeSucSecCon, it's called Cloud Native SecurityCon. What's the difference? Are people confused? Is it clear? What's the difference between the two shows? What are you hearing? >> So I think that, you know, there is a good question. Okay, where is Cloud Native Computing Foundation came from? Obviously everyone knows that it was somewhat coupled with the adoption of Kubernetes. It was a clear understanding in the industry that there are different efforts where the industry needs to come together without looking be very vendor-specific and try to sort out a lot of issues in order to enable adoption and bring great value and I think that the main difference here between KubeCon and the Cloud Native Security Conference is really the focus, and not just on Kubernetes, but the whole ecosystem behind that. The way we are delivering software, the way we are monitoring software, and all where Kubernetes is only just, you know, maybe the biggest clog in the system, but, you know, just one of the others and it gives great overview of what you have in the whole ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think it's a good call. I would add that what I'm hearing too is that security is so critical to the business model of every company. It's so mainstream. The hackers have a great business model. They make money, their costs are lower than the revenue. So the business of hacking in breaches, ransomware all over the place is so successful that they're playing offense, everyone's playing defense, so it's about time we can get focus to really be faster and more nimble and agile on solving some of these security challenges in open source. So I think that to me is a great focus and so I give total props to the CNC. I call it the event operating system. You got the security group over here decoupled from the main kernel, but they work together. Good call and so this brings back up to some of the things that are going on so I have to ask you, as your startup as a CTO, you guys have the Kubescape platform, how do you guys fit into the landscape and what's different from your tools for Kubernetes environments versus what's out there? >> So I think that our journey is really interesting in the solution space because I think that our mode really tries to understand where security can meet the actual adoption because as you just said, somehow we have to sort out together how security is going to be automated and integrated in its best way. So Kubescape project started as a Kubernetes security posture tool. Just, you know, when people are really early in their adoption of Kubernetes systems, they want to understand whether the installation is is secure, whether the basic configurations are look okay, and giving them instant feedback on that, both in live systems and in the CICD, this is where Kubescape came from. We started as an open source project because we are big believers of open source, of the power of open source security, and I can, you know I think maybe this is my first interview when I can say that Kubescape was accepted to be a CNCF Sandbox project so Armo was actually donating the project to the CNCF, I think, which is a huge milestone and a great way to further the adoption of Kubernetes security and from now on we want to see where the users in Armo and Kubescape project want to see where the users are going, their Kubernetes security journey and help them to automatize, help them to to implement security more fast in the way the developers are using it working. >> Okay, if you don't mind, I want to just get clarification. What's the difference between the Armo platform and Kubescape because you have Kubescape Sandbox project and Armo platform. Could you talk about the differences and interaction? >> Sure, Kubescape is an open source project and Armo platform is actually a managed platform which runs Kubescape in the cloud for you because Kubescape is part, it has several parts. One part is, which is running inside the Kubernetes cluster in the CICD processes of the user, and there is another part which we call the backend where the results are stored and can be analyzed further. So Armo platform gives you managed way to run the backend, but I can tell you that backend is also, will be available within a month or two also for everyone to install on their premises as well, because again, we are an open source company and we are, we want to enable users, so the difference is that Armo platform is a managed platform behind Kubescape. >> How does Kubescape differ from closed proprietary sourced solutions? >> So I can tell you that there are closed proprietary solutions which are very good security solutions, but I think that the main difference, if I had to pick beyond the very specific technicalities is the worldview. The way we see that our user is not the CISO. Our user is not necessarily the security team. From our perspective, the user is the DevOps and the developers who are working on the Kubernetes cluster day to day and we want to enable them to improve their security. So actually our approach is more developer-friendly, if I would need to define it very shortly. >> What does this risk calculation score you guys have in Kubscape? That's come up and we cover that in our story. Can you explain to the folks how that fits in? Is it Kubescape is the platform and what's the benefit, what's the purpose? >> So the risk calculation is actually a score we are giving to clusters in order for the users to understand where they are standing in the general population, how they are faring against a perfect hardened cluster. It is based on the number of different tests we are making. And I don't want to go into, you know, the very specifics of the mathematical functions, but in general it takes into account how many functions are failing, security tests are failing inside your cluster. How many nodes you are having, how many workloads are having, and creating this number which enables you to understand where you are standing in the global, in the world. >> What's the customer value that you guys pitching? What's the pitch for the Armo platform? When you go and talk to a customer, are they like, "We need you." Do they come to you? Is it word of mouth? You guys have a strategy? What's the pitch? What's so appealing to the customers? Why are they enthusiastic about you guys? >> So John, I can tell you, maybe it's not so easy to to say the words, but I nearly 20 years in the industry and though I've been always around cyber and the defense industry and I can tell you that I never had this journey where before where I could say that the the customers are coming to us and not we are pitching to customers. Simply because people want to, this is very easy tool, very very easy to use, very understandable and it very helps the engineers to improve security posture. And they're coming to us and they're saying, "Well, awesome, okay, how we can like use it. Do you have a graphical interface?" And we are pointing them to the Armor platform and they are falling in love and coming to us even more and we can tell you that we have a big number of active users behind the platform itself. >> You know, one of the things that comes up every time at KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon when we're there, and we'll be in Amsterdam, so folks watching, you know, we'll see onsite, developer productivity is like the number one thing everyone talks about and security is so important. It's become by default a blocker or anchor or a drag on productivity. This is big, the things that you're mentioning, easy to use, engineering supporting it, developer adoption, you know we've always said on theCUBE, developers will be the de facto standards bodies by their choices 'cause developers make all the decisions. So if I can go faster and I can have security kind of programmed in, I'm not shifting left, it's just I'm just having security kind of in there. That's the dream state. Is that what you guys are trying to do here? Because that's the nirvana, everyone wants to do that. >> Yeah, I think your definition is like perfect because really we had like this, for a very long time we had this world where we decoupled security teams from developers and even for sometimes from engineering at all and I think for multiple reasons, we are more seeing a big convergence. Security teams are becoming part of the engineering and the engineering becoming part of the security and as you're saying, okay, the day-to-day world of developers are becoming very tangled up in the good way with security, so the think about it that today, one of my developers at Armo is creating a pull request. He's already, code is already scanned by security scanners for to test for different security problems. It's already, you know, before he already gets feedback on his first time where he's sharing his code and if there is an issue, he already can solve it and this is just solving issues much faster, much cheaper, and also you asked me about, you know, the wipe in the conference and we know no one can deny the current economic wipe we have and this also relates to security teams and security teams has to be much more efficient. And one of the things that everyone is talking, okay, we need more automation, we need more, better tooling and I think we are really fitting into this. >> Yeah, and I talked to venture capitalists yesterday and today, an angel investor. Best time for startup is right now and again, open source is driving a lot of value. Ben, it's been great to have you on and sharing with us what's going on on the ground there as well as talking about some of the traction you have. Just final question, how old's the company? How much funding do you have? Where you guys located? Put a plug in for the company. You guys looking to hire? Tell us about the company. Were you guys located? How much capital do you have? >> So, okay, the company's here for three years. We've passed a round last March with Tiger and Hyperwise capitals. We are located, most of the company's located today in Israel in Tel Aviv, but we have like great team also in Ukraine and also great guys are in Europe and right now also Craig Box joined us as an open source VP and he's like right now located in New Zealand, so we are a really global team, which I think it's really helps us to strengthen ourselves. >> Yeah, and I think this is the entrepreneurial equation for the future. It's really great to see that global. We heard that in Priyanka Sharma's keynote. It's a global culture, global community. >> Right. >> And so really, really props you guys. Congratulations on Armo and thanks for coming on theCUBE and sharing insights and expertise and also what's happening on the ground. Appreciate it, Ben, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, cheers. Okay, this is CUB coverage here of the Cloud Native SecurityCon in North America 2023. I'm John Furrier for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. We're back with more of wrap up of the event after this short break. (gentle upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon 2023. This has been a great conversation that we've been able to be a part of today. Lisa Martin with John Furrier and Dave Vellante. Dave and John, I want to get your take on the conversations that we had today, starting with the keynote that we were able to see. What are your thoughts? We talked a lot about technology. We also talked a lot about people and culture. John, starting with you, what's the story here with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, there's two major threads. One is the breakout of a new event from CloudNativeCon/KubeCon, which is a very successful community and events that they do international and in North America. And that's not stopping. So that's going to be continuing to go great. This event is a breakout with an extreme focus on security and all things security around that ecosystem. And with extensions into the Linux Foundation. We heard Brian Behlendorf was on there from the Linux Foundation. So he was involved in Hyperledger. So not just Cloud Native, all things containers, Kubernetes, all things Linux Foundation as an open source. So, little bit more of a focus. So I like that piece of it. The other big thread on this story is what Dave and Yves were talking about on our panel we had earlier, which was the business model of security is real and that is absolutely happening. It's impacting business today. So you got this, let's build as fast as possible, let's retool, let's replatform, refactor and then the reality of the business imperative. To me, those are the two big high-order bits that are going on and that's the reality of this current situation. >> Dave, what are your top takeaways from today's day one inaugural coverage? >> Yeah, I would add a third leg of the stool to what John said and that's what we were talking about several times today about the security is a do-over. The Pat Gelsinger quote, from what was that, John, 2011, 2012? And that's right around the time that the cloud was hitting this steep part of the S-curve and do-over really has meant in looking back, leveraging cloud native tooling, and cloud native technologies, which are different than traditional security approaches because it has to take into account the unique characteristics of the cloud whether that's dynamic resource allocation, unlimited resources, microservices, containers. And while that has helped solve some problems it also brings new challenges. All these cloud native tools, securing this decentralized infrastructure that people are dealing with and really trying to relearn the security culture. And that's kind of where we are today. >> I think the other thing too that I had Dave is that was we get other guests on with a diverse opinion around foundational models with AI and machine learning. You're going to see a lot more things come in to accelerate the scale and automation piece of it. It is one thing that CloudNativeCon and KubeCon has shown us what the growth of cloud computing is is that containers Kubernetes and these new services are powering scale. And scale you're going to need to have automation and machine learning and AI will be a big part of that. So you start to see the new formation of stacks emerging. So foundational stacks is the machine learning and data apps are coming out. It's going to start to see more apps coming. So I think there's going to be so many new applications and services are going to emerge, and if you don't get your act together on the infrastructure side those apps will not be fully baked. >> And obviously that's a huge risk. Sorry, Dave, go ahead. >> No, that's okay. So there has to be hardware somewhere. You can't get away with no hardware. But increasingly the security architecture like everything else is, is software-defined and makes it a lot more flexible. And to the extent that practitioners and organizations can consolidate this myriad of tools that they have, that means they're going to have less trouble learning new skills, they're going to be able to spend more time focused and become more proficient on the tooling that is being applied. And you're seeing the same thing on the vendor side. You're seeing some of these large vendors, Palo Alto, certainly CrowdStrike and fundamental to their strategy is to pick off more and more and more of these areas in security and begin to consolidate them. And right now, that's a big theme amongst organizations. We know from the survey data that consolidating redundant vendors is the number one cost saving priority today. Along with, at a distant second, optimizing cloud costs, but consolidating redundant vendors there's nowhere where that's more prominent than in security. >> Dave, talk a little bit about that, you mentioned the practitioners and obviously this event bottoms up focused on the practitioners. It seems like they're really in the driver's seat now. With this being the inaugural Cloud Native SecurityCon, first time it's been pulled out of an elevated out of KubeCon as a focus, do you think this is about time that the practitioners are in the driver's seat? >> Well, they're certainly, I mean, we hear about all the tech layoffs. You're not laying off your top security pros and if you are, they're getting picked up very quickly. So I think from that standpoint, anybody who has deep security expertise is in the driver's seat. The problem is that driver's seat is pretty hairy and you got to have the stomach for it. I mean, these are technical heroes, if you will, on the front lines, literally saving the world from criminals and nation-states. And so yes, I think Lisa they have been in the driver's seat for a while, but it it takes a unique person to drive at those speeds. >> I mean, the thing too is that the cloud native world that we are living in comes from cloud computing. And if you look at this, what is a practitioner? There's multiple stakeholders that are being impacted and are vulnerable in the security front at many levels. You have application developers, you got IT market, you got security, infrastructure, and network and whatever. So all that old to new is happening. So if you look at IT, that market is massive. That's still not transformed yet to cloud. So you have companies out there literally fully exposed to ransomware. IT teams that are having practices that are antiquated and outdated. So security patching, I mean the blocking and tackling of the old securities, it's hard to even support that old environment. So in this transition from IT to cloud is changing everything. And so practitioners are impacted from the devs and the ones that get there faster and adopt the ways to make their business better, whether you call it modern technology and architectures, will be alive and hopefully thriving. So that's the challenge. And I think this security focus hits at the heart of the reality of business because like I said, they're under threats. >> I wanted to pick up too on, I thought Brian Behlendorf, he did a forward looking what could become the next problem that we really haven't addressed. He talked about generative AI, automating spearphishing and he flat out said the (indistinct) is not fixed. And so identity access management, again, a lot of different toolings. There's Microsoft, there's Okta, there's dozens of companies with different identity platforms that practitioners have to deal with. And then what he called free riders. So these are folks that go into the repos. They're open source repos, and they find vulnerabilities that developers aren't hopping on quickly. It's like, you remember Patch Tuesday. We still have Patch Tuesday. That meant Hacker Wednesday. It's kind of the same theme there going into these repos and finding areas where the practitioners, the developers aren't responding quickly enough. They just don't necessarily have the resources. And then regulations, public policy being out of alignment with what's really needed, saying, "Oh, you can't ship that fix outside of Germany." Or I'm just making this up, but outside of this region because of a law. And you could be as a developer personally liable for it. So again, while these practitioners are in the driver's seat, it's a hairy place to be. >> Dave, we didn't get the word supercloud in much on this event, did we? >> Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I think security is the big single, biggest challenge for supercloud, securing the supercloud with all the diversity of tooling across clouds and I think you brought something up in the first supercloud, John. You said, "Look, ultimately the cloud, the hyperscalers have to lean in. They are going to be the enablers of supercloud. They already are from an infrastructure standpoint, but they can solve this problem by working together. And I think there needs to be more industry collaboration. >> And I think the point there is that with security the trend will be, in my opinion, you'll see security being reborn in the cloud, around zero trust as structure, and move from an on-premise paradigm to fully cloud native. And you're seeing that in the network side, Dave, where people are going to each cloud and building stacks inside the clouds, hyperscaler clouds that are completely compatible end-to-end with on-premises. Not trying to force the cloud to be working with on-prem. They're completely refactoring as cloud native first. And again, that's developer first, that's data first, that's security first. So to me that's the tell sign. To me is if when you see that, that's good. >> And Lisa, I think the cultural conversation that you've brought into these discussions is super important because I've said many times, bad user behavior is going to trump good security every time. So that idea that the entire organization is responsible for security. You hear that all the time. Well, what does that mean? It doesn't mean I have to be a security expert, it just means I have to be smart. How many people actually use a VPN? >> So I think one of the things that I'm seeing with the cultural change is face-to-face problem solving is one, having remote teams is another. The skillset is big. And I think the culture of having these teams, Dave mentioned something about intramural sports, having the best people on the teams, from putting captains on the jersey of security folks is going to happen. I think you're going to see a lot more of that going on because there's so many areas to work on. You're going to start to see security embedded in all processes. >> Well, it needs to be and that level of shared responsibility is not trivial. That's across the organization. But they're also begs the question of the people problem. People are one of the biggest challenges with respect to security. Everyone has to be on board with this. It has to be coming from the top down, but also the bottom up at the same time. It's challenging to coordinate. >> Well, the training thing I think is going to solve itself in good time. And I think in the fullness of time, if I had to predict, you're going to see managed services being a big driver on the front end, and then as companies realize where their IP will be you'll see those managed service either be a core competency of their business and then still leverage. So I'm a big believer in managed services. So you're seeing Kubernetes, for instance, a lot of managed services. You'll start to see more, get the ball going, get that rolling, then build. So Dave mentioned bottoms up, middle out, that's how transformation happens. So I think managed services will win from here, but ultimately the business model stuff is so critical. >> I'm glad you brought up managed services and I want to add to that managed security service providers, because I saw a stat last year, 50% of organizations in the US don't even have a security operations team. So managed security service providers MSSPs are going to fill the gap, especially for small and midsize companies and for those larger companies that just need to augment and compliment their existing staff. And so those practitioners that we've been talking about, those really hardcore pros, they're going to go into these companies, some large, the big four, all have them. Smaller companies like Arctic Wolf are going to, I think, really play a key role in this decade. >> I want to get your opinion Dave on what you're hoping to see from this event as we've talked about the first inaugural standalone big focus here on security as a standalone. Obviously, it's a huge challenge. What are you hoping for this event to get groundswell from the community? What are you hoping to hear and see as we wrap up day one and go into day two? >> I always say events like this they're about educating, aspiring to action. And so the practitioners that are at this event I think, I used to say they're the technical heroes. So we know there's going to be another Log4j or a another SolarWinds. It's coming. And my hope is that when that happens, it's not an if, it's a when, that the industry, these practitioners are able to respond in a way that's safe and fast and agile and they're able to keep us protected, number one and number two, that they can actually figure out what happened in the long tail of still trying to clean it up is compressed. That's my hope or maybe it's a dream. >> I think day two tomorrow you're going to hear more supply chain, security. You're going to start to see them focus on sessions that target areas if within the CNCF KubeCon + CloudNativeCon area that need support around containers, clusters, around Kubernetes cluster. You're going to start to see them laser focus on cleaning up the house, if you will, if you can call it cleaning up or fixing what needs to get fixed or solved what needs to get solved on the cloud native front. That's going to be urgent. And again, supply chain software as Dave mentioned, free riders too, just using open source. So I think you'll see open source continue to grow, but there'll be an emphasis on verification and certification. And Docker has done a great job with that. You've seen what they've done with their business model over hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue from a pivot. Catch a few years earlier because they verify. So I think we're going to be in this verification blue check mark of code era, of code and software. Super important bill of materials. They call SBOMs, software bill of materials. People want to know what's in their software and that's going to be, again, another opportunity for machine learning and other things. So I'm optimistic that this is going to be a good focus. >> Good. I like that. I think that's one of the things thematically that we've heard today is optimism about what this community can generate in terms of today's point. The next Log4j is coming. We know it's not if, it's when, and all organizations need to be ready to Dave's point to act quickly with agility to dial down and not become the next headline. Nobody wants to be that. Guys, it's been fun working with you on this day one event. Looking forward to day two. Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante and John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE's day one coverage of Cloud Native SecurityCon '23. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE. We're here in Palo Alto, California. I'm your host, John Furrier with a special guest here in the studio. As part of our Cloud Native SecurityCon Coverage we had an opportunity to bring in Jon Turow who is the partner at Madrona Venture Partners formerly with AWS and to talk about machine learning, foundational models, and how the future of AI is going to be impacted by some of the innovation around what's going on in the industry. ChatGPT has taken the world by storm. A million downloads, fastest to the million downloads there. Before some were saying it's just a gimmick. Others saying it's a game changer. Jon's here to break it down, and great to have you on. Thanks for coming in. >> Thanks John. Glad to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So first of all, I'm glad you're here. First of all, because two things. One, you were formerly with AWS, got a lot of experience running projects at AWS. Now a partner at Madrona, a great firm doing great deals, and they had this future at modern application kind of thesis. Now you are putting out some content recently around foundational models. You're deep into computer vision. You were the IoT general manager at AWS among other things, Greengrass. So you know a lot about data. You know a lot about some of this automation, some of the edge stuff. You've been in the middle of all these kind of areas that now seem to be the next wave coming. So I wanted to ask you what your thoughts are of how the machine learning and this new automation wave is coming in, this AI tools are coming out. Is it a platform? Is it going to be smarter? What feeds AI? What's your take on this whole foundational big movement into AI? What's your general reaction to all this? >> So, thanks, Jon, again for having me here. Really excited to talk about these things. AI has been coming for a long time. It's been kind of the next big thing. Always just over the horizon for quite some time. And we've seen really compelling applications in generations before and until now. Amazon and AWS have introduced a lot of them. My firm, Madrona Venture Group has invested in some of those early players as well. But what we're seeing now is something categorically different. That's really exciting and feels like a durable change. And I can try and explain what that is. We have these really large models that are useful in a general way. They can be applied to a lot of different tasks beyond the specific task that the designers envisioned. That makes them more flexible, that makes them more useful for building applications than what we've seen before. And so that, we can talk about the depths of it, but in a nutshell, that's why I think people are really excited. >> And I think one of the things that you wrote about that jumped out at me is that this seems to be this moment where there's been a multiple decades of nerds and computer scientists and programmers and data thinkers around waiting for AI to blossom. And it's like they're scratching that itch. Every year is going to be, and it's like the bottleneck's always been compute power. And we've seen other areas, genome sequencing, all kinds of high computation things where required high forms computing. But now there's no real bottleneck to compute. You got cloud. And so you're starting to see the emergence of a massive acceleration of where AI's been and where it needs to be going. Now, it's almost like it's got a reboot. It's almost a renaissance in the AI community with a whole nother macro environmental things happening. Cloud, younger generation, applications proliferate from mobile to cloud native. It's the perfect storm for this kind of moment to switch over. Am I overreading that? Is that right? >> You're right. And it's been cooking for a cycle or two. And let me try and explain why that is. We have cloud and AWS launch in whatever it was, 2006, and offered more compute to more people than really was possible before. Initially that was about taking existing applications and running them more easily in a bigger scale. But in that period of time what's also become possible is new kinds of computation that really weren't practical or even possible without that vast amount of compute. And so one result that came of that is something called the transformer AI model architecture. And Google came out with that, published a paper in 2017. And what that says is, with a transformer model you can actually train an arbitrarily large amount of data into a model, and see what happens. That's what Google demonstrated in 2017. The what happens is the really exciting part because when you do that, what you start to see, when models exceed a certain size that we had never really seen before all of a sudden they get what we call emerging capabilities of complex reasoning and reasoning outside a domain and reasoning with data. The kinds of things that people describe as spooky when they play with something like ChatGPT. That's the underlying term. We don't as an industry quite know why it happens or how it happens, but we can measure that it does. So cloud enables new kinds of math and science. New kinds of math and science allow new kinds of experimentation. And that experimentation has led to this new generation of models. >> So one of the debates we had on theCUBE at our Supercloud event last month was, what's the barriers to entry for say OpenAI, for instance? Obviously, I weighed in aggressively and said, "The barriers for getting into cloud are high because all the CapEx." And Howie Xu formerly VMware, now at ZScaler, he's an AI machine learning guy. He was like, "Well, you can spend $100 million and replicate it." I saw a quote that set up for 180,000 I can get this other package. What's the barriers to entry? Is ChatGPT or OpenAI, does it have sustainability? Is it easy to get into? What is the market like for AI? I mean, because a lot of entrepreneurs are jumping in. I mean, I just read a story today. San Francisco's got more inbound migration because of the AI action happening, Seattle's booming, Boston with MIT's been working on neural networks for generations. That's what we've found the answer. Get off the neural network, Boston jump on the AI bus. So there's total excitement for this. People are enthusiastic around this area. >> You can think of an iPhone versus Android tension that's happening today. In the iPhone world, there are proprietary models from OpenAI who you might consider as the leader. There's Cohere, there's AI21, there's Anthropic, Google's going to have their own, and a few others. These are proprietary models that developers can build on top of, get started really quickly. They're measured to have the highest accuracy and the highest performance today. That's the proprietary side. On the other side, there is an open source part of the world. These are a proliferation of model architectures that developers and practitioners can take off the shelf and train themselves. Typically found in Hugging face. What people seem to think is that the accuracy and performance of the open source models is something like 18 to 20 months behind the accuracy and performance of the proprietary models. But on the other hand, there's infinite flexibility for teams that are capable enough. So you're going to see teams choose sides based on whether they want speed or flexibility. >> That's interesting. And that brings up a point I was talking to a startup and the debate was, do you abstract away from the hardware and be software-defined or software-led on the AI side and let the hardware side just extremely accelerate on its own, 'cause it's flywheel? So again, back to proprietary, that's with hardware kind of bundled in, bolted on. Is it accelerator or is it bolted on or is it part of it? So to me, I think that the big struggle in understanding this is that which one will end up being right. I mean, is it a beta max versus VHS kind of thing going on? Or iPhone, Android, I mean iPhone makes a lot of sense, but if you're Apple, but is there an Apple moment in the machine learning? >> In proprietary models, here does seem to be a jump ball. That there's going to be a virtuous flywheel that emerges that, for example, all these excitement about ChatGPT. What's really exciting about it is it's really easy to use. The technology isn't so different from what we've seen before even from OpenAI. You mentioned a million users in a short period of time, all providing training data for OpenAI that makes their underlying models, their next generation even better. So it's not unreasonable to guess that there's going to be power laws that emerge on the proprietary side. What I think history has shown is that iPhone, Android, Windows, Linux, there seems to be gravity towards this yin and yang. And my guess, and what other people seem to think is going to be the case is that we're going to continue to see these two poles of AI. >> So let's get into the relationship with data because I've been emerging myself with ChatGPT, fascinated by the ease of use, yes, but also the fidelity of how you query it. And I felt like when I was doing writing SQL back in the eighties and nineties where SQL was emerging. You had to be really a guru at the SQL to get the answers you wanted. It seems like the querying into ChatGPT is a good thing if you know how to talk to it. Labeling whether your input is and it does a great job if you feed it right. If you ask a generic questions like Google. It's like a Google search. It gives you great format, sounds credible, but the facts are kind of wrong. >> That's right. >> That's where general consensus is coming on. So what does that mean? That means people are on one hand saying, "Ah, it's bullshit 'cause it's wrong." But I look at, I'm like, "Wow, that's that's compelling." 'Cause if you feed it the right data, so now we're in the data modeling here, so the role of data's going to be critical. Is there a data operating system emerging? Because if this thing continues to go the way it's going you can almost imagine as you would look at companies to invest in. Who's going to be right on this? What's going to scale? What's sustainable? What could build a durable company? It might not look what like what people think it is. I mean, I remember when Google started everyone thought it was the worst search engine because it wasn't a portal. But it was the best organic search on the planet became successful. So I'm trying to figure out like, okay, how do you read this? How do you read the tea leaves? >> Yeah. There are a few different ways that companies can differentiate themselves. Teams with galactic capabilities to take an open source model and then change the architecture and retrain and go down to the silicon. They can do things that might not have been possible for other teams to do. There's a company that that we're proud to be investors in called RunwayML that provides video accelerated, sorry, AI accelerated video editing capabilities. They were used in everything, everywhere all at once and some others. In order to build RunwayML, they needed a vision of what the future was going to look like and they needed to make deep contributions to the science that was going to enable all that. But not every team has those capabilities, maybe nor should they. So as far as how other teams are going to differentiate there's a couple of things that they can do. One is called prompt engineering where they shape on behalf of their own users exactly how the prompt to get fed to the underlying model. It's not clear whether that's going to be a durable problem or whether like Google, we consumers are going to start to get more intuitive about this. That's one. The second is what's called information retrieval. How can I get information about the world outside, information from a database or a data store or whatever service into these models so they can reason about them. And the third is, this is going to sound funny, but attribution. Just like you would do in a news report or an academic paper. If you can state where your facts are coming from, the downstream consumer or the human being who has to use that information actually is going to be able to make better sense of it and rely better on it. So that's prompt engineering, that's retrieval, and that's attribution. >> So that brings me to my next point I want to dig in on is the foundational model stack that you published. And I'll start by saying that with ChatGPT, if you take out the naysayers who are like throwing cold water on it about being a gimmick or whatever, and then you got the other side, I would call the alpha nerds who are like they can see, "Wow, this is amazing." This is truly NextGen. This isn't yesterday's chatbot nonsense. They're like, they're all over it. It's that everybody's using it right now in every vertical. I heard someone using it for security logs. I heard a data center, hardware vendor using it for pushing out appsec review updates. I mean, I've heard corner cases. We're using it for theCUBE to put our metadata in. So there's a horizontal use case of value. So to me that tells me it's a market there. So when you have horizontal scalability in the use case you're going to have a stack. So you publish this stack and it has an application at the top, applications like Jasper out there. You're seeing ChatGPT. But you go after the bottom, you got silicon, cloud, foundational model operations, the foundational models themselves, tooling, sources, actions. Where'd you get this from? How'd you put this together? Did you just work backwards from the startups or was there a thesis behind this? Could you share your thoughts behind this foundational model stack? >> Sure. Well, I'm a recovering product manager and my job that I think about as a product manager is who is my customer and what problem he wants to solve. And so to put myself in the mindset of an application developer and a founder who is actually my customer as a partner at Madrona, I think about what technology and resources does she need to be really powerful, to be able to take a brilliant idea, and actually bring that to life. And if you spend time with that community, which I do and I've met with hundreds of founders now who are trying to do exactly this, you can see that the stack is emerging. In fact, we first drew it in, not in January 2023, but October 2022. And if you look at the difference between the October '22 and January '23 stacks you're going to see that holes in the stack that we identified in October around tooling and around foundation model ops and the rest are organically starting to get filled because of how much demand from the developers at the top of the stack. >> If you look at the young generation coming out and even some of the analysts, I was just reading an analyst report on who's following the whole data stacks area, Databricks, Snowflake, there's variety of analytics, realtime AI, data's hot. There's a lot of engineers coming out that were either data scientists or I would call data platform engineering folks are becoming very key resources in this area. What's the skillset emerging and what's the mindset of that entrepreneur that sees the opportunity? How does these startups come together? Is there a pattern in the formation? Is there a pattern in the competency or proficiency around the talent behind these ventures? >> Yes. I would say there's two groups. The first is a very distinct pattern, John. For the past 10 years or a little more we've seen a pattern of democratization of ML where more and more people had access to this powerful science and technology. And since about 2017, with the rise of the transformer architecture in these foundation models, that pattern has reversed. All of a sudden what has become broader access is now shrinking to a pretty small group of scientists who can actually train and manipulate the architectures of these models themselves. So that's one. And what that means is the teams who can do that have huge ability to make the future happen in ways that other people don't have access to yet. That's one. The second is there is a broader population of people who by definition has even more collective imagination 'cause there's even more people who sees what should be possible and can use things like the proprietary models, like the OpenAI models that are available off the shelf and try to create something that maybe nobody has seen before. And when they do that, Jasper AI is a great example of that. Jasper AI is a company that creates marketing copy automatically with generative models such as GPT-3. They do that and it's really useful and it's almost fun for a marketer to use that. But there are going to be questions of how they can defend that against someone else who has access to the same technology. It's a different population of founders who has to find other sources of differentiation without being able to go all the way down to the the silicon and the science. >> Yeah, and it's going to be also opportunity recognition is one thing. Building a viable venture product market fit. You got competition. And so when things get crowded you got to have some differentiation. I think that's going to be the key. And that's where I was trying to figure out and I think data with scale I think are big ones. Where's the vulnerability in the stack in terms of gaps? Where's the white space? I shouldn't say vulnerability. I should say where's the opportunity, where's the white space in the stack that you see opportunities for entrepreneurs to attack? >> I would say there's two. At the application level, there is almost infinite opportunity, John, because almost every kind of application is about to be reimagined or disrupted with a new generation that takes advantage of this really powerful new technology. And so if there is a kind of application in almost any vertical, it's hard to rule something out. Almost any vertical that a founder wishes she had created the original app in, well, now it's her time. So that's one. The second is, if you look at the tooling layer that we discussed, tooling is a really powerful way that you can provide more flexibility to app developers to get more differentiation for themselves. And the tooling layer is still forming. This is the interface between the models themselves and the applications. Tools that help bring in data, as you mentioned, connect to external actions, bring context across multiple calls, chain together multiple models. These kinds of things, there's huge opportunity there. >> Well, Jon, I really appreciate you coming in. I had a couple more questions, but I will take a minute to read some of your bios for the audience and we'll get into, I won't embarrass you, but I want to set the context. You said you were recovering product manager, 10 plus years at AWS. Obviously, recovering from AWS, which is a whole nother dimension of recovering. In all seriousness, I talked to Andy Jassy around that time and Dr. Matt Wood and it was about that time when AI was just getting on the radar when they started. So you guys started seeing the wave coming in early on. So I remember at that time as Amazon was starting to grow significantly and even just stock price and overall growth. From a tech perspective, it was pretty clear what was coming, so you were there when this tsunami hit. >> Jon: That's right. >> And you had a front row seat building tech, you were led the product teams for Computer Vision AI, Textract, AI intelligence for document processing, recognition for image and video analysis. You wrote the business product plan for AWS IoT and Greengrass, which we've covered a lot in theCUBE, which extends out to the whole edge thing. So you know a lot about AI/ML, edge computing, IOT, messaging, which I call the law of small numbers that scale become big. This is a big new thing. So as a former AWS leader who's been there and at Madrona, what's your investment thesis as you start to peruse the landscape and talk to entrepreneurs as you got the stack? What's the big picture? What are you looking for? What's the thesis? How do you see this next five years emerging? >> Five years is a really long time given some of this science is only six months out. I'll start with some, no pun intended, some foundational things. And we can talk about some implications of the technology. The basics are the same as they've always been. We want, what I like to call customers with their hair on fire. So they have problems, so urgent they'll buy half a product. The joke is if your hair is on fire you might want a bucket of cold water, but you'll take a tennis racket and you'll beat yourself over the head to put the fire out. You want those customers 'cause they'll meet you more than halfway. And when you find them, you can obsess about them and you can get better every day. So we want customers with their hair on fire. We want founders who have empathy for those customers, understand what is going to be required to serve them really well, and have what I like to call founder-market fit to be able to build the products that those customers are going to need. >> And because that's a good strategy from an emerging, not yet fully baked out requirements definition. >> Jon: That's right. >> Enough where directionally they're leaning in, more than in, they're part of the product development process. >> That's right. And when you're doing early stage development, which is where I personally spend a lot of my time at the seed and A and a little bit beyond that stage often that's going to be what you have to go on because the future is going to be so complex that you can't see the curves beyond it. But if you have customers with their hair on fire and talented founders who have the capability to serve those customers, that's got me interested. >> So if I'm an entrepreneur, I walk in and say, "I have customers that have their hair on fire." What kind of checks do you write? What's the kind of the average you're seeing for seed and series? Probably seed, seed rounds and series As. >> It can depend. I have seen seed rounds of double digit million dollars. I have seen seed rounds much smaller than that. It really depends on what is going to be the right thing for these founders to prove out the hypothesis that they're testing that says, "Look, we have this customer with her hair on fire. We think we can build at least a tennis racket that she can use to start beating herself over the head and put the fire out. And then we're going to have something really interesting that we can scale up from there and we can make the future happen. >> So it sounds like your advice to founders is go out and find some customers, show them a product, don't obsess over full completion, get some sort of vibe on fit and go from there. >> Yeah, and I think by the time founders come to me they may not have a product, they may not have a deck, but if they have a customer with her hair on fire, then I'm really interested. >> Well, I always love the professional services angle on these markets. You go in and you get some business and you understand it. Walk away if you don't like it, but you see the hair on fire, then you go in product mode. >> That's right. >> All Right, Jon, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Really appreciate you stopping by the studio and good luck on your investments. Great to see you. >> You too. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, Jon. >> CUBE coverage here at Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, your host. More coverage with CUBE Conversations after this break. (upbeat music)