>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the queue covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path. >>We'll go back to the cubes coverage of UI paths forward for big customer event. You know, this company has always bucked the trend and they're doing it again. They're having a live event, physical event. There are customers here, partners, technologists. I'm here with Lisa Martin, my co-host for the show. And we're going to talk about testing. It's a new market for UI path. If anybody knows anything about testing, it's kind of this mundane, repetitive process ripe for automation geared vice-chairs. Here's the senior vice president of testing products at UI path and Matt Elisa. Who's the product marketing lead at UI path. Gents. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having us feminists. Explain to us how you guys think about testing both from an internal perspective and how you're going to market. >>Yeah, well, testing has been around for a long time, right? 25 years or so when, when I came to UI pass, the first thing I looked at was like, how do our customers test RPA? And it's quite interesting. We did a survey actually with 1500 people and, uh, 27% said that they wouldn't test at all. And I thought that's really interesting. RPA is a business critical software that runs in your production environment and you probably have to test. So we came up with this idea that we create the test suite we're using, you know, proven technology from UI pass. And, and we built this offering and brought this into the market for RPA testing and for application testing. So we do both. And of course we use it internally as well. I mean, that will be, you know, eat your own dog food or drink your own champagne, I guess. Yeah. >>Well, think about it. If you, if you automate, if you, if there's an ROI to automate a process, there's gotta be an ROI to verify that it's going to work before it goes into production too. And so it's amazing that a lot of companies are not doing this and they're doing it manually, um, today. >>So, so, but so, but parts of testing have been automated, haven't they with regression testing. So can, can you guys take us through kind of the before and after and how you're approaching it versus the traditional way? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I said, testing is not new, right? Um, but still when you look at the customers, they're not out to meeting more than I would say, 30, 40% of the manual tests. So still a lot of Stan manually, which I think, and we talked about this right manual testing is the, the original RPA. It's a tedious, repetitive tasks that you should not do manually. Right? And so what we are trying to bring in is now we're talking about this new role, it's called a digital tester. The digital tester is an empowered. We could call a manual tester, who's able to build automation and we believe that this will truly increase the automation, even in the existing testing market. And it's going to be, I don't want to use the word game-changer, but it's gonna change. Uh, the way testing is done. Yeah. >>And we're, we're applying, um, all the capabilities of UI path and delivering those testers, just like we would for HR team or a, or a, a finance and accounting team. But testing even has they understand this more, they've been doing this for 20 years. They understand automation and we're going to get them things like process mining so they can figure out what tests they need to run from production data. We're going to give them task mining so they can make more human-like tests test. Exactly. Like I used to be a tester, uh, and I ran a test team. And what I used to do is I have to go out to a warehouse and I'd have to go watch people as they entered orders, to make sure I was testing it the right way. So they would like click. We usually thought they were clicking things, whether you're using hotkeys, that's just an example of what they were doing. But now we can do task, task mining to get that remotely, pull that data in and do tests and make more realistic tests. >>How much of the there's so much potential there? I think you were saying that only 27% are actually doing testing. So there's so much opportunity. I'm curious, where are your conversations within the customer organization? We know that automation is a board level investor topic. Where are you? Where are those discussions with the testing folks, the RPA folks, helping them come together? >>Well, that's interesting. The question we typically, on the IP side, we talked to the cos by the people that are professionally developing those RPAs, but very easily, we get introduced to the test side of the house. And then usually there's a joint meeting where the test people are there, the RPA people are there. And that's why we are talking about this is going to convert somehow, right? They are in different departments today. But if you think about it, if five years down the road, maybe 10 years, they might be an automation discipline for the entire enterprise. So if that answered your question about, >>Yeah, >>Yeah. And we have a customer coming presenting this afternoon, Chipola and they're gonna be talking about how they, both of the teams are using a test teams and the RPA teams. And they built a reusable component library that, so when they built RPA team built their automations, they put them in a reusable library and the test team is able to recreate their tests much faster, reusing about 70% of the components. And so when the, when you think of automation, they're thinking about automating the application, not automating a process or a test so that people can use those like Lego blocks and build it if they're doing so, they could even, even it automation, if they wanted to start doing it, automation, they could pull those components out and use those. >>This is game changing is quality because so often, because in this day and age of agile, it's like move fast and break things. A lot of things break. And when we heard this morning in the keynotes, how you guys are pushing code like a couple of times a week, I mean, it's just a constant. And then you do two big releases. Okay. I get, I get it for the on-prem. But when you're pushing code that fast, you don't have time to test everything. There's a lot of stuff that's unknown. And so to the extent that you can compress all those checkboxes, now I can focus on the really important things that sometimes are architectural. How do you expect applying RPA to testing is going to affect the quality? Or maybe you got some examples. Chipotle. You just mentioned what, >>First of all, I mean, when you say we pushing code like bi-weekly or so, right. We're talking about continuous development. That's what it's called. Right? It's agile. You have sprint cycles, you continue to bring new code, new code, new code, and you test all the increments with it. So it's not that you building up a huge backlog for the testing on the RPA side. What I see is that there will be a transformation about the process, how they develop RPA at the moment. It's still done very much, I would say, in a waterfall issue, which is agree, >>A big bang waterfall. >>Yeah. It will transition. We already have partners that apply agile methodologies to their actually RPA development. And that's going to change that. >>Okay. So it's not so it's quality for those that are in testing obviously, but, but it's, but for the waterfall guys, it's, it's compressing the time to value. Oh yeah. That's going to be the big key. Yeah. That's really where it's coming. >>But he said his Chipotle is, was able to reuse 70% of the automation components. Right. That's huge. I mean, you have to think about it. 70% can be reused from testing to RPA and vice versa. That's a huge acceleration. Also on the IPA side, you can automate more processes faster. If you have components that you can trust. >>So you were a tester. Yeah. So you were a cost center. Yes, exactly. >>Unnecessary. What's the budget. >>So could you think RPA and automation can flip that mindset? Yes, >>Totally. And that's one of the things we want to do is we want to turn testing from a cost center to a value center, give testers a new career paths, even because really testers before all you could do is you could be more technical. Maybe you become a developer or you could be a manager, but you couldn't really become like an automation architect or a senior automation person. And now we're giving them a whole different career path to go down. So it's really exciting >>Because I know when I came out of college, I had a job offer and I wanted to be a developer, a programmer. We call them back then. And the only job I could get was as a tester. And I was like, oh, this is miserable. I'm not doing this, but there's a, there was a growth path there. They were like, Hey, do this for two or three years, maybe five years. I was like, forget it. I'm going into sales and marketing. But so what's the, what's the growth path today for the tester. And how do you see this >>Changing? So you want to go, you want to, I can take that one. No, you take it. I mean, I did it, so really it's, I mean, we're going to be giving these guys, the testing market has been kind of not innovating for years and years and years. And so we're going to be giving these guys some new tools to make them more powerful, make even the cause. Testing is a kind of a practice that is, you know, like, like you said, you didn't like testing. I didn't like testing either. Actually I hate testing. So I automated it. Right. So, um, and so that was the first thing I did. And so I think we're going to give these guys some new tools, some ways to grow their career and some ways to be even better testers, but like, like, like we talked about process mining, test mining, like maybe they're maybe they're testing the wrong things. Maybe they're not testing, you know, maybe, you know, there, cause there's kind of this test, everything mentality where we need to test everything and the whole release instead of like focusing in on what changed. And so I think we'll be able to help them really focus on the testing and the quality to make it more efficient as well. However, >>So T to defend the testers, right test is a very skilled people. Yes. They know their business, they know what to test and how to test in a way that nobody else knows that it's something we sometimes underestimate. They are not developers, so they don't write code or they don't build automations typically. But if we can equip them with tools that they can build out information, you have the brain and the muscle together, you know what I mean? You don't have to delegate the automation to some, whatever team that is maybe outsourced even you can do it. In-house and I think to some extent, that was also the story of Chipotle, right? Yeah. Yeah. They were in sourcing again because they're building their own >>And it saved them time because they have deal is handoffs, you know, to an external third party to do the testing for them. And so they pulled it all in made things much more streamlined and efficient. How >>Is that? It seems like a big cultural shift within any type of organization in any industry we're using as an example here, how does UI path help facilitate that cultural shift? Cause that's big and we're talking about really reducing, um, or speeding time to value. >>Right. Right. And it is a lot of the agile methodology is like, we're starting. So it's kind of like, we're going back in time, you know, and we're teaching these people, you know, the RPA community, all of the things that we learned from software development. Right. And so we're going to bring applying that to this. And so all those agile mindset, the th the agile values, you know, those are the things that are going to help them kind of come together. And that's one of the things that Julie talked about is one of the things is they had a kind of agile mindset, a can-do attitude that pulled them together. >>I think one thing that will really helps with changing the culture is empowering the people. If you give them the tools that they can do, they will do, and that will change the culture. I don't think it can come from top down. It needs to come from within and from the people. And that's what we see also with RPA, by the way, is adopted on department level and D build automations. And then at some point it becomes maybe an enterprise wide initiative, right. But somebody in HR had this idea and started >>The other thing too, is Matt, you mentioned this, you could go to a third party. So what years ago? In the early two thousands, we had a software company. We would use a company called agile on. They were us. I don't know if you ever heard of them. They're basically, we're a job shop. And we would throw our code over the very waterfall, throw the code over the fence. It was a black box and it was very asynchronous. And it would come back, you know, weeks later. And they say, I fix this, fix this, but we didn't have the analytics we didn't have. There was no transparency. Had we had that. We would have maybe come up with new ideas or a way to improve it because we knew the product way better. And so if you can bring that, in-house now you've got much better visibility. So what, what analytics are analytics a piece of this? >>Is that something that is so, I mean, I'll give you an example, SAP systems, right? When you have SAP systems, customers apply transports like five or 10 a day. Every transport can change the system in a way that you might break the automation. We have the possibility to actually not only understand what's going on in this system with process mining, but we also have the possibility to do change, impact, money, and change impact. Mining tells me with every process, every transport I apply, what has changed, and we can pinpoint the test cases that you need to run. So instead of running a thousand test cases, every time we pinpoint 50 of them and you know exactly what has changed. Yeah. >>That's right. Cause a lot of times you don't know what you don't know. And you're saying the machine is basically saying focus on these areas that are going to give you the biggest, that's kind of Amdahl's law, isn't it focus on the areas that are going to get the most return. Yeah. So this is a new business for UI path. You guys are targeting this as a market segment. Can you tell us more about that? >>We joined about two years ago. It takes some time to build something, right. There was a lot of proven technology there. And then we lounged, uh, I think it wasn't July last year, which was more like a, uh, private lounge. We, we didn't make much noise around it and it's gaining a lot of traction. So it's several hundred customers have already jumped on their test bandwagon, if you can call it this way. And yeah, this, this year we were pushing full speed into the testing market as well, because we see the benefits that customers get when they use both like the story from Chipotle. It has other customers like Cisco and, and more, when you hear the stories, what they were able to achieve. I mean, that's a no-brainer I think for any customer who wants to improve the automation. Yeah. >>Well, and also we're taking production grade automation and giving it to the testers and we're giving them this advanced AI so they can automate things. They weren't able to automate before, like Citrix virtual virtualized machines, point of sale systems, like 12 layer, any other business would have, they can automate all those things now that they couldn't do before, as well as everything else. And then they can also the testing tools, they talked about fragmentation this morning. That's another problem is there's a tool for mobile. There's a tool for this. There's a tool for API APIs. You have all these tools, you have to learn all these languages. We're going to give them one. They can learn and use and apply to all their technologies. And it's easy to use and it's easy to use. Yeah. >>That's kind of been the mantra of UI path for very long time, easy to use making, making RPA simple. We've got 8,000 plus customers. You mentioned a few of them. We're going to have some of them on the program this week. How do you expect good question for you that stat that you mentioned from that survey in the very beginning of our conversation, how do you expect that needle to move in the next year? Because we're seeing so much acceleration because of the pandemic. >>That's a really good question because the questions that we had in the, after we had the first hundred, right? The values didn't change that much. So we have now 1500 and you would assume that is pretty stable from the data. It didn't change that much. So we're still at 27% that are not testing. And that's what we see as our mission. We want to change that no customer that has more than, I dunno, five processes in production should not like not test that's crazy and we can help. And that's our mission. So, but the data is not changing. That's the interesting part. >>I know, I know we're out of time, but, but we're how do you price this? Is it a, is it a set? Is it a subscription? Is it a usage based model? How, how do you, >>It's fully included in the UI pass tool suite. So it means it's on the cloud and on-prem the pricing is the same. We are using this. There >>It is. Yeah. >>It's the same components. Like, like we're using studio for automation, we're using orchestrator, but we're using robots. We have cloud test manager on prem test manager. It's just a part of the >>Value, add that you're putting into the platform. Yeah, yeah, >>Exactly. Yeah. There are components that are priced. Yes. But I mean, it's part of the platform, how it is delivered. >>Yeah. So I paid for that module and you turn it on and use it. So it's a subscription. It could be an annual term if I want multi-year term. I can do that. Exactly. Good. Great guys. Thanks so much for coming on the Cuban and good luck with this. Thank you. Great, great innovations. Okay. Keep it right there at Dave Volante for Lisa Martin, we'll be back with our coverage of UI path forward for, from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Keep it right there.

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path. >>We'll go back to the cubes coverage of UI paths forward for big customer event. You know, this company has always bucked the trend and they're doing it again. They're having a live event, physical event. There are customers here, partners, technologists. I'm here with Lisa Martin, my co-host for the show. And we're going to talk about testing. It's a new market for UI path. If anybody knows anything about testing, it's kind of this mundane, repetitive process ripe for automation geared vice-chairs. Here's the senior vice president of testing products at UI path and Matt Elisa. Who's the product marketing lead at UI path. Gents. Welcome to the cube. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having a feminist Likert. Explain to us how you guys think about testing both from an internal perspective and how you're going to market. >>Yeah, well, testing has been around for a long time, right? 20 twenty-five years or so when, when I came to UI pass, the first thing I looked at was like, how do our customers test RPA? And it's quite interesting. We did a survey actually with 1500 people and, uh, 27% said that they wouldn't test at all. And I thought that's really interesting. RPA is a business critical software that runs in your production environment and you probably have to test. So we came up with this idea that we create the test suite. We're using, you know, proven technology from UI pass. And, and we built this offering and brought us into market for RPA testing in for application testing. So we do both. And of course we use it internally as well. I mean, that will be, you know, eat your own dog food or drink your own champagne, I guess. So >>I want to think about it. If you, if you automate, if you, if there's an ROI to automate a process, there's gotta be an ROI to verify that it's going to work before it goes into production too. And so it's amazing that a lot of companies are not doing this and they're doing it manually, um, today. >>So, so, but so, but parts of testing have been automated, haven't they with regression testing. So can, can you guys take us through kind of the before and after and how you're approaching it versus the traditional? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I said, testing is not new, right? Um, but still when you look at the customers, they're not out to meeting more than I would say, 30, 40% of the manual tests. So still a lot of Stan manually, which I think, and we talked about this right manual testing is the, the original RPA. It's a tedious, repetitive tasks that you should not do manually. Right? And so what we are trying to bring in is now we're talking about this new role it's called the digital tester. The digital tester is an empowered. We could call a manual tester, who's able to build automation and we believe that this will truly increase the automation, even in the existing testing market. And it's going to be, I don't want to use the word game changer, but it's going change. Uh, the way testing is done. Yeah. >>And we're, we're applying, um, all the capabilities of UI path and delivering those to testers, just like we would for HR team or a, or a, a finance and accounting team. But testing even has they understand this more, they've been doing this for 20 years. They understand automation and we're going to give them things like process mining so they can figure out what tests they need to run from production data. We're going to give them task mining so they can make more human-like tests test. Exactly. Like I used to be a tester and I ran a test team. And what I used to do is I have to go out to a warehouse and I'd have to go watch people as they entered orders, to make sure I was testing it the right way. So they would like click. We usually thought they were clicking things, but they were using hotkeys. That's just an example of what they were doing. But now we can do task task mining to get that remotely, pull that data in and do tests and make more realistic tests. >>So much of the there's so much potential there. I think you were saying that only 27% are actually doing testing. So there's so much opportunity. I'm curious, where are your conversations within the customer organization? We know that automation is a board level investor topic. Where are you? Where are those discussions with the testing folks, the RPA folks, helping them come together? >>Well, that's interesting. The question, uh, we typically on the IPS, have we talked to the cos, right? The people that are professionally developing those RPAs, but very easily, we get introduced to the test side of the house. And then usually there's a joint meeting where the test people are there, the RPA people are there. And that's why we are talking about this is going to convert somehow, right? The are in different departments today. But if you think about it, five years down the road, maybe 10 years, they might be at an automation discipline for the entire enterprise. So if that answered your question about, >>Yeah. >>Going to require a cultural shift. Yeah. And we have a customer coming presenting this afternoon. and they're gonna be talking about how they, both of the teams are using a test teams and the RPA teams. And they built a reusable component library that, so when they built RPA team built their automations, they put them in a reusable library and the test team is able to recreate their test much faster reusing about 70% of the components. And so when the, when you think of automation, they're thinking about automating the application, not automating a process or a test so that people can use those like Lego blocks and build it if they're doing so, they could even, even it automation, if they wanted to start with an it automation, they could pull those components out and use those. >>I think this is game changing is quality because so often, because in this day and age of agile, it's like move fast and break things. A lot of things break. And when we heard this morning in the keynotes, how you guys are pushing code like a couple of times a week, I mean, it's just a constant. And then you do two big releases. Okay. I get, I get it for the on-prem. But when you're pushing code that fast, you don't have time to test everything. There's a lot of stuff that's unknown. And so to the extent that you can compress all those check boxes, now I can focus on the really important things that sometimes are architectural. How do you expect applying RPA to testing is going to affect the quality? Or maybe you've got some examples. Chipotle, you just mentioned, >>First of all, I mean, when you say we pushing code like bi-weekly or so, right. We're talking about continuous development. That's what it's called. Right? It's agile. You have sprint cycles, you continue to bring new code, new code, new code, and you test all the increments with it. So it's not that you building up a huge backlog for the testing on the IPA side. What I see is that there will be a transformation about the process, how they develop RPA at the moment. It's still done very much, I would say, in a waterfall way, which is agree. A big bang waterfall. Yeah. It will transition. We already have partners that apply agile methodologies to their actually RPA development. And that's going to change that. >>Okay. So it's not so it's quality for those that are in testing obviously, but, but it's, but for the waterfall guys, it's, it's compressing the time to value. Oh yeah. That's going to be the big key. That's really worth. >>I mean, what he said is Chipotle is, was able to reuse 70% of the automation components. Right. That's huge. I mean, you have to think about it. 70% can be reused from testing to RPA and vice versa. That's a huge acceleration. Also on the RPA side, you can automate more processes faster. If you have components that you can trust. >>So you were a tester. Yeah. So you were a cost center. Yes, exactly. >>Unnecessary. What's the budget. >>So could you think RPA and automation can flip that mindset? >>Yeah, totally. And that's one of the things we want to do is we want to turn testing from a cost center to a value center, give testers a new career paths, even because really testers before all you could do is you could be more technical. Maybe you become a developer or you can be a manager, but you couldn't really become like an automation architect or a senior automation person. And now we're giving them a whole different career path to go down. So it's really exciting. >>'cause I know when I came out of college, I had a job offer and I wanted to be a developer, a programmer. We called them back then. And the only job I could get was as a tester. And I was like, oh, this is miserable. I'm not doing this, but there's a, there was, there's a growth path there. They were like, Hey, do this for two or three years, maybe five years. I was like, forget it. I'm going into sales and marketing. But so what's the, what's the growth path today for the tester. And how do you see this changing? >>So you want to go, you want to, I can take that one. No, you take it. So that's a really, yeah. I mean, I did it, so really it's, I mean, we're going to be giving these guys, the testing market has been kind of not innovating for years and years and years. And so we're going to be giving these guys some new tools to make them more powerful, make even the cause. Testing is a kind of a practice that is, you know, like, like you said, you, you didn't like testing. I didn't like testing either. Actually I hate testing. So I automated it. So, um, and so that was the first thing I did. And so I think we're going to give these guys some new tools, some ways to grow their career and some ways to be even better testers, but like, like, like we've talked about process mining, test mining, like maybe they're maybe they're testing the wrong things. Maybe they're not testing, you know, maybe, you know, there, cause there's kind of this test, everything mentality we're we need to test everything and the whole release instead of like focusing in on what changed. And so I think we'll be able to help them really focus on the testing and the quality to make it more efficient as well. >>Go ahead. So do to defend the testers, right? Test is a very skilled people. Yes. They know their business, they know what to test and how to test in a way that nobody else knows that it's something we sometimes underestimate. They are not developers so that they don't write code and they don't build automations typically. But if we can equip them with tools that they can build out information, you have the brain and the muscle together, you know what I mean? You don't have to delegate the automation to some, whatever team that is maybe outsourced even you can do it. In-house and I think to some extent, that was also the story of Portland sourcing again, because they're building their own automation. Yeah. >>And it saved them time because they have deal is handoffs, you know, to an external third party to do the testing for them. And so they pulled it all in made things much more streamlined and efficient. How >>Is that? It seems like a big cultural shift within any type of organization in any industry we're using Chipola as an example here, how does your path help facilitate that cultural shift? Because that's big and we're talking about really reducing, um, or speeding time to value. >>Right. Right. And it is a lot of the agile methodologies like we're starting. So it's kind of like, we're going back in time, you know, and we're teaching these people, you know, the RPA community, all of the things that we learned from software development. Right. And so we're going to be applying that to this. And so all those agile mindset, the th the agile values, you know, those are the things that are going to help them kind of come together. And that's one of the things that Julie talked about is one of the things is they had a, kind of an agile mindset, a can-do attitude that pulled them down. >>And I think one thing that will really helps with changing the culture is empowering the people. If you give them the tools that they can do, they will do, and that will change the culture. I don't think it can come from top down. It needs to come from within and from the people. And that's what we see also with RPA, by the way, is adopted on department level and D build automations. And then at some point it becomes maybe an enterprise wide initiative, right. But somebody in HR had this idea and started >>The other thing too, is Matt, you mentioned this you'd go to a third party. So years ago in the early two thousands, we had a software company. We would use a company called agile on. They were, so I don't know if you ever heard of them. They're basically, we're a job shop. And we would throw our code over the very waterfall, throw the code over the fence. It was a black box and it was very asynchronous. And it would come back, you know, weeks later. And they say, oh, I fixed this, fixed this, but we didn't have the analytics we didn't have. There was no transparency had we had that. We would have maybe come up with new ideas or have way to improve it because we knew the product way better. And so if you can bring that, in-house now you've got much better visibility. So what, what analytics are our analytics a piece of this? And is that something? Yeah. >>Yeah. So, I mean, they'll give you an example, SAP systems, right? When you have SAP systems, customers apply transports like five or 10 a day. Every transport can change the system in a way that you might break the automation. We have the possibility to actually not only understand what's going on in this system with process mining, but we also have the possibility to do change, impact, money, and change impact. Mining tells me with every process, every transport I apply, what has changed, and we can pinpoint the test cases that you need to run. So instead of running a thousand test cases, every time we pinpoint 50 of them and you know exactly what has changed. Yeah. >>That's right. Because a lot of times you don't know what you don't know. And you're saying the machine is basically saying focus on these areas that are going to give you the biggest, that's kind of Amdahl's law. Isn't it focus on the areas that going to get the most return. Yeah. So this is a new business for UI path. You guys are targeting this as a market segment. Can you tell us more about that? >>We joined about two years ago. It takes some time to build something, right. There was a lot of proven technology there. And then we lounged, uh, I think it wasn't July last year, which was more like a private lounge. We, we didn't make much noise around it and it's gaining a lot of traction. So it's several hundred customers have already jumped on that test bandwagon, if you can call it this way. And yeah, this, this year we are pushing full speed into the testing market as well, because we see the benefits that customers get when they use both like the story from Chipotle. It has other customers like Cisco and, and more, when you hear the stories, what they were able to achieve. I mean, that's a no-brainer I think for any customer who wants to improve the automation. Yeah. >>Well, and also we're taking production grade automation and giving it to the testers and we're giving them this advanced AI so they can automate things. They weren't able to automate before, like Citrix virtual virtualized machines, point of sale systems, like 12 layer, any other business would have, they can automate all those things now that they couldn't do before, as well as everything else. And then they can also the testing tools, they talked about fragmentation this morning. That's another problem is there's a tool for mobile. There's a tool for this. There's a tool for API APIs and you have all these tools. You have to learn all these languages. We're going to give them one that they can learn and use and apply to all their technologies. And it's easy to use and it's easy to use. Yeah. >>That's kind of been the mantra of UiPath for very long time, easy to use making, making RPA simple. We've got 8,000 plus customers. You mentioned a few of them. We're going to have some of them on the program this week. How do you expect good question for you that stat that you mentioned from that survey in the very beginning of our conversation, how do you expect that needle to move in the next year? Because we're seeing so much acceleration because of the pandemic. >>A really good question, because the questions that we had in the beginning after we had the first hundred, right? The values didn't change that much. So we have now 1500 and you would assume that is pretty stable from the data. It didn't change that much. So we're still at 27% that are not testing. And that's what we see as our mission. We want to change that no customer that has more than, I dunno, five processes in production should not like not test that's crazy and we can help. And that's our mission. So, but the data is not changing. That's the interesting part. >>And I know, I know we're out of time, but, but we're how do you price this? Is it a, is it a set? Is it a subscription? Is it a usage based model? How >>It's fully included in the UI pass tool suite. So it means it's on the cloud and on-prem the pricing is the same. We are using this. There it is. Yeah. It's the same components. Like, like we're using studio for automation, we're using orchestrator, but we're using robots. We have cloud test manager on prem test manager. It's just a part of the, >>So it's a value add that you're putting into the platform. Yeah, yeah, exactly. >>Yeah. Th there are components that are priced. Yes. But I mean, it's part of the platform, how, >>But it's a module. So I paid for that module and you turn it on and then they can use it. So it's a subscription. It could be an annual term if I want multi-year term, I can do that. Exactly. Good. Great guys. Thanks so much for coming on the Cuban and good luck with this. Thank you. Great, great innovations. Okay. Keep it right there at Dave Volante for Lisa Martin, we'll be back with our coverage of UI path forward for, from the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Keep it right there.

>> Narrator: From the Cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a Cube conversation. I'm really excited to have our next guest on. You see them all over on social, a very active community member. And we have not heard from him for a little while, so I'm psyched to have him on. He's Bobby Allen. He is a tech and Cloud evangelist. Bobby, how you doing? >> I'm good, Jeff, how are you? >> Good, so, I'm just to have the obligatory check-in. So, you're getting through this madness of COVID, and family's good, everything's good? >> Yeah, everybody's good. I've got a teen and a twin. They haven't driven us crazy yet. So, so far, everybody's healthy and everybody's good. >> Good, good. So, let's jump into it, Bobby. You know, people talk about Cloud as being, there's a lot of great benefits to Cloud, you know, kind of, cost savings, and agility, and more importantly, really as a driver of innovation which I think most people are kind of late to the party there, they think really more on cost savings versus innovation, but now, it's been around, you know, AWS has been around kind of, broke open the door in terms of public Cloud, and then everything was a public Cloud and not because of public Cloud, and then we have hybrid Cloud and we have multicloud. And now, things are kind of, settling down. So, when you talk to people about Cloud, how should they think about the reality of it once they kind of, leave the trade show and they're getting back to their desk, and they actually have to start implementing some things? >> So, great question, Jeff, First of all, thank you for giving me that opportunity to answer that. This is how I think about Cloud. So, we often talk about Cloud in terms of gym memberships, right? Like going to the Cloud is like buying a gym membership. I actually argue that the Cloud is actually more like weights. If you apply weights to a good form you're going to get stronger, if you apply weights to a bad form you're going to hurt yourself. And what we found is that a lot of these companies, Jeff, are applying Cloud and automation to things that really didn't make a lot of sense. And so, they're wasting more money, they're getting more frustrated, and they're wondering why Cloud was not this magic bullet that just solved everything. It didn't fix world peace and global hunger, and now, they're worse off than they were before. There are a couple of reasons I can go into about that but hopefully, that answers the question at first. We're training the wrong way, Jeff. We're adding weight to things that don't make sense and we're hurting ourselves. >> So, it it just I picked the wrong application or are they operating it in a way as they operated it when it was on-prem? 'Cause the thing I always think of, which is interesting, right? Is everybody always talks about spinning up capacity, right? Spin up capacity. You're running a promotion on the Superbowl, and you're going to have a bunch of people hitting your coupon but they'd never talk about spinning it down. And I went to a really interesting presentation one time where a guy talked about their application. He's like, we like when you turn it off, when you turn off our application, we're not making any money, but it tells that you know, kind of how to operate this thing, which is turn it on, but don't forget to turn it off. And I think, you know, we had a situation on one of our little applications that we left open and let something run and ended up with a bill that we weren't necessarily anticipating, not because we did anything wrong, but we just didn't do the right thing, which was to turn off that particular service when we didn't need it. So, what's the wrong way, what's the wrong exercise? Why are people screwing this up? >> So, I think the problem, Jeff, is actually more upstream. So, my personal mantra for 2020 has been, tech is the easy part, data and behavior are the hard parts. And I think you nailed it, right? That Cloud is only about what you need to buy, not what you need to change, then you're going to be woefully disappointed with the results. And so, when I'm saying go upstream, what I'm finding is, missed expectations, Jeff, sink more projects than bad code broken APIs or large bills? The thing that we're missing is, we're thinking that technology replaces the need to have a conversation. So, for example, when we say we want to do something better in the Cloud, what does better actually mean? So, let's talk about food for a second. Hopefully, I don't make your people hungry 'cause it's around lunchtime. But if we think about Cloud application like a recipe, are we tryna make a mediocre recipe better or make a good recipe at scale, right? 'Cause if you take a nasty recipe and scale it out, you're just going to go broke faster. So, really the question is, which problem are we trying to solve? What is the issue that we're really wrestling with? And so, we need to have a better vocabulary, more descriptive conversations. And so, let me give you one that I often talk to customers about, right? We talk about technical debt a lot of times. And technical debt, Jeff, in my opinion, is being used as a misnomer. So, they're kind of, different sorts of debt that I see often in the C-suite. So, there's technical debt where I don't like what we're running, there's data debt where I don't know what we're running, and there's brain debt where I don't know what we want. And Jeff, I would argue that a lot of things that are masquerading as technical debt in the C-suite are really brain debt. I haven't figured out what we want to do, I haven't thought about what we're willing and able to change. And so, that's why the Cloud is a disappointment because we haven't figured out what we want for lunch. (laughs) >> So, it's a classic like people process technology program, you know, problem. And we hear about it all the time, right? And everyone loves to focus on the technology. I haven't heard it really explained that well, but that's what you're saying. It's like, we'll just jump to that part so we don't have to actually ask the hard questions, right? And the thing that makes me think of it when you talked about that is it's kind of like the whole data aggregation problem and all the big data adventures when half the time people don't know what data is where, so, even just going through the exercise of cataloging, finding, organizing, cleansing, all that kind of stuff before you really start to think about what can you do with the big data project? You got to get the baseline down before you can get into the fancy stuff. Sounds kind of like, what you're talking about. >> You nailed it, Jeff. And I'm actually going to piggyback on something you said. This is actually the problem that I think we're wrestling with in Cloud and in life. There it is, right? And we're got to put a fine point in it for the listeners. We are struggling, Jeff, with how to evaluate better versus different. And so, what Cloud has done more importantly, Cloud has shortened the amount of time that we're willing to spend on something before we just start over again. And so, the question that we wrestle with is, do I need to do the same thing a little bit differently? Do I need to tweak it or is there something better that's come along where I need to throw everything away, start all over again, and wipe the slate clean. And so, here's what ends up happening, right? The challenge that we have building on that is how we choose, Jeff, is more important than what we choose because a lot of us are making choices but we're not developing a framework to choose in a world where different things are pushed at us really every day and every night, right? Amazon and Azure are changing literally thousands of things every night. And if I feel like there's something new out there, I have to understand, is this noise, or is this something I pay attention to? Is this a size for a project or is this something that helps my value? If you don't have a way to choose, Jeff, every new option is going to just lead to more confusion and more decommitment. >> Right, well, I mean, you raised a really interesting point which is how do CIOs keep up with all this stuff? I mean, how do they possibly keep the lights on, you know, run digital transformation, kind of, keep up with the, Lord knows, how many changes like you said, get made at Amazon every single day I mean, the feature set when Andy stands on stage at re-invent and lists all the services. I think he's using like a two-and-a-half point font on a 200 foot video screen. I mean, there's so much there. So, how do you help people take a step back from, it's like driving, you know, a car with headlights through snow at night. You know, it's just like kuchu chu chu. How do you help people take a step back and be a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more intentional, a little bit more circumspect to lay a good foundation which is going to be what the rest of the house is built on. If you don't have it, it's just going to crumble, if you have it, then at least you have a chance of success. How do you help guide them and get out of that snow storm? >> So, I'm going to give you a new acronym, Jeff, but I think it starts with humility. It starts with us admitting that we don't have this all figured out yet. I often tell a lot of customers, Cloud is that best a teenager that just learned how to drive. And Cloud similar to teenagers, the ability of what it can do is, kind of, in conflict with what it can comprehend in terms of unintended consequences. And so, if Cloud is changing all the time, let's not talk about, we crushed it, we nailed it, we knocked it out of the park. Let's raise our hand and say, you know what? I humbly need some help, because here's what we do, Jeff. In this industry, we throw around acronyms and terms all the time. IaaS, PaaS, SaaS, BDaaS, DBaaS, whatever. I'm going to introduce the term CaaS, but that's not containers as a service job. I think what we're getting is confusion as a service. (laughs) There's so many things that are changing that people are overwhelmed but because we want to act so much like we're crushing it on social media, we really need to say, I need help, I can't do this in a spreadsheet anymore. Please are there solutions out there that can help me automate some of this stuff so that I'm not a victim of my own ignorance. So, humility, right? Embrace other people that have solved some of this problem before, somebody has solved this problem. There are companies out there that are taking in the data, that are automating the decision-making, and that can help you, right? Bring people in, bringing outside help. >> Right, well, the other piece you just talked on is automation, and it goes back to your earlier comment about, you know, scale, bad things at scale are not good. So, if you don't get things dialed in now, and you start applying automation, and you start applying machine speed, you know, then things can get really squirrely really quick. So, that's even another kind of, you know, danger zone coming ahead, start to plan and make sure you've got your stuff organized or now you're going to automate it at machine speed, IOT, 5G, and really run things ragged super quickly. >> Jeff, I agree a hundred percent with that. I want to go back to something you talked about before. People process technology. I want to tweak that. I think we really need to evolve into people, process, product, or people, process, problem. It's got to go back to what am I creating or what am I solving this helping someone? And the technology is something that I will use or not if that helps me meet that outcome. But as technologists, Jeff, a lot of us are getting lazy. I want to play with Kubernetes. I want to play with containers. I want to play with serverless. I want to play with IOT. Who is that actually solving a problem for? Is what we've got to come back to because if I'm not doing that, the less you submit that I'm playing with this, but I'm not really making something better for a customer or adding more value to the business. >> So, again, what are your tips and tricks? 'Cause things are not going to get less complicated, right? As we've talked about Amazon's rolling out new services all the time. Google is really starting, you know, Google Cloud is really starting to rage. Obviously, Satya has done an amazing job with Microsoft, and then there's Oracle Cloud and IBM Cloud, and all these secondary Clouds, Equinix, and that acceleration is only going up. So, how do you, you know encourage people, coach people, tell people to make sure that they're taking a step back and being organized and thoughtful, and not just racing ahead at the next bright shiny object? >> So, great question again, Jeff. I think people have to have to be careful that just because you hear about something a lot doesn't mean it's proven to scale. Social media is dangerous in the sense that we think that we hear something a hundred times then a means that is polished. And I think that as enterprises and as businesses, you know, go with something that's proven, but dip a toe in the water, if you're not sure about it. So, maybe you are experimenting with some things in DevTests, but here's some practical tips that I'll give. Three things, right? I recommend that people typically start here with Cloud strategy, the three D's of data are what I recommend people begin with. Don't begin with the widgets, the shiny objects, begin with data storage, begin with data transport and begin with data organization. We know that data is the lifeblood of the enterprise, right? That's what all of us are focused on right now, right? Data is collected from watches, from websites, from things like self-driving cars, eventually. So, how is my data going to be stored? 'Cause that's the most important part of likely what we're doing as a corporation. How is it going to be transported? Am I okay with spending X amount of dollars on Egress? Do I have latency issues? And then when it comes to data organization, databases, data warehouses, data lakes, I would start with my philosophy, Jeff, on how I plan to leverage that information across any of the multi or hybrid providers that I plan to spin up, because if I start with the data that connects me better to the customer, how am I going to leverage this data then make something better for them? And then any venue honestly, Jeff, that I choose to execute in we'll have tools and utilities and packages that I can leverage to make something better for someone. >> The piece you didn't mention though, was the application. So, where's the application? Say you still start with the data foundationally, and then go to the application or? >> Yes. >> But most of the initiatives driven kind of, at the application level layer? >> They are, and I'm glad you mentioned that. So, practically speaking, let me go down a level to double-click on stuff. Well, people want to be Cloud native, right? 'Cause we don't want to run servers. We don't want to run boxes, we don't even really want to do VMS anymore. One thing that I recommend, that I believe is high reward and low risk is that people strongly consider adopting database as a service, and this is the reason why. It gives us a format to go to something that's Cloud native that doesn't have to be totally rewritten. So, the juice is worth the squeeze there because I'm reducing labor, I'm reducing maintenance, I'm reducing cycles, the DBaaS that people like that have to do, but I'm not paying to refactor an application. Where we struggle, Jeff, and maybe this is another topic, we really struggle with the value of applications, and because we don't know the value of an app, we're using the cost of an app as a proxy. And so, if you don't know the value of something, you're always going to be at risk of over or under improving it. This is why I like database as a service. I can be more nimble, I can reduce labor, and I'm not rewriting an application and spending more to rewrite it than the app is worth. If I totally refactor, or if I totally replatform, the cost may outstrip the value. DBaaS is almost always a slam dunk, 'cause I'm going to reduce manual things that my people are doing that freeze them up, to focus more on customers and evolve in the end. That's what I see pretty consistently in the enterprise. >> That is really scary. That statement that you said that people don't necessarily know the value of the app and using cost as a proxy is not good. You know, I had Butch Rizzo on recently, and he did a study on, you know, trying to figure out the value of data, versus the the value of an app. And he did some research of that UCSF, and what they did is they basically said the value of the data is dependent on the business process that you can improve, or the business project that you want to do. You make an estimate as to what the ROI in that process is, and then you basically see if it's worthwhile to do. And that case and point was, you know, running a promotion at Chipola 'cause bill loves Chipola, but he had a real concrete way that, you know, if we can increase sales at the target stores by, you know, 10%, or we can increase the average ticket by 20 cents or we can increase the average number of items ordered by 0.5 or whatever. So, you know, real far metrics that tie back to real numbers, that tie back to value that you can make an assessment of that project, and that project is enabled by data. So, I hope people are doing that far applications 'cause cost is not the way to figure out value >> The challenge that we have, Jeff, when we look at a lot of the things in the Cloud, there's a big difference between if I have "big C" customers, someone who's literally pulling out a wallet or a credit card to pay for my service or product versus "little C" customers like internally. If I'm paying for a streaming service, and the cost of the streaming service goes up the value of that's likely also going up because I'm serving more big C customers. If the cost of a password reset manager goes up and internal application that nobody was likely paying for, and that's really the dilemma that a lot of folks have in the enterprise, Jeff. Am I going to take something that has limited value like a password application, and put it in a place that can have unlimited spend. Now, if I'm a Netflix or Disney plus, if my spend is going up, my value is going up because I'm serving more big C people that are going to pull out their credit card and give me money. So, a lot of the struggle is when we drill down into this in the enterprise is the people that have the little C customers that don't have anybody paying them 'cause they're tryna understand this is like funny money in our houses job. My kids are teenagers. If I was to charge them, right? For room and board or for dinner, they don't have any money. So, the value of what they think about my cooking on the weekend, right? It's hard to put a value on that because they're not paying me, but if I had a food truck, it's easy to put a value on that, are people buying it or not? So, again, the challenges between internal or external customers and asked me to get any things I charged back and show back, we need a model to understand, is this something that you're tolerating or something that you're actually choosing and are you willing to spend money on it? >> Yeah, and it's a complicated issue, right? Because the other thing is you'd say, you take this conversation over to the security space, which I always find fascinating 'cause investigating security is kind of like investing in insurance and you can't use all your money to insure everything a hundred percent or else you just, why would you even do it? But you have to have some, and it's not a real clear ROI, but the potential downside is pretty huge. So, it's this kind of, balancing act, as you said, it's not really clean as to what the true value of that is unless you tie it back to some specific event, a breach, you know, some type of pins getting stolen, et cetera. So, these are not hard questions, but it's funny 'cause they're not technology questions, right? They're business value questions, and they're priority questions, and they're trade off questions. That's the other thing, right? You don't have infinite resources. So, even if you solve the model here you need to solve it within a portfolio of challenges, opportunities to then, as you said, you know, kind of rank order, where do you spend that next version of dollar? 'Cause it really can have a very a huge difference on the return. >> Okay, I think if I was going to give a, maybe a final piece of advice to the audience, Jeff, it would be to not confuse planning and analysis. That's something that I've talked about before. There's a big difference between those two things, and I often use the analogy of tax planning versus tax preparation. Jeff, when we collect our receipts, and our W-2s and 1099s, and go to our CPA at the beginning of the next year, we can't call that tax planning. That's tax preparation. It's already kind of done and dusted as long as you don't mess it up, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion. And the enterprise is doing a lot of analysis and a lot of preparation, but really we need to do more planning. We need to look at the tools and the companies that are helping us simulate and plan for the future that's coming because then when we're talking about it, right? When you're sitting with your CPA and you're saying, what if I do this with my retirement or 401k, or real estate assets, when they can talk to you about what might happen, right? You're not in crisis, it's not a fire drill, it's not a dumpster fire, you can have a very easy conversation around the pros and cons of that. So, I think that's one thing we really have to embrace is press ahead, talk to those consultants and those solution providers, is this really planning or is this just analysis? Is this looking backwards or is it really looking forward and giving me some insight into the things that are coming so that I feel smarter going into the next season? >> And the opportunity to make a change before you hit December 31st. I mean, I think that's a really great analogy. Well, Bobby, a lot of great stuff squeezed in in a few short minutes, it's super fun to catch up, and I just love all your analogies and your stories because at the end of the day, it is about people, and it's about priorities, and it's about business, it's not about the technology. So, thank you so much for sharing your insight. >> Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for having me. >> Oh, absolutely, all right. He's Bobby Allen, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE from our Palo Alto studio. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (bright music)