>>from around the >>globe. It's the cube >>with digital >>Coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM >>Well how everybody john wall is here on the CUBA as we continue our IBM think initiative And today talking with Clemens, Raymond, who is the global CTO cloud and DeVOPS leader at Cap Gemini And Clemens, thanks for joining us here on the cube. Good to see you today. >>Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >>Yeah. Tell us a little bit about Cap Gemini. If you will first off for our viewers at home that might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit about your specific responsibilities there. >>So who doesn't know Cap Gemini in this system? Integrator world and the world has been living on the stone. And uh, so Geminis a worldwide system, integrated liquid offerings in all kinds of spaces in all areas there. >>Uh, my >>responsibility is mainly around cloud and devils >>have taken care >>our countries on delivery centers have the right knowledge around clouds, right capabilities around devils to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >>Everybody's talking about digital these days, right. And everybody this magical digital transformation that's occurring that's been going on for quite some time. Um, what does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations, what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >>Yeah, so it's quite interesting to start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like >>for an >>organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. >>And then when you are >>looking at that, I'm always starting the discussion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities >>either to uh, interact and engage with their workforce to make them work in the most efficient way. And what we are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels and those digital channels that can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work, I'm calling, I'm using zoom are using teams and that kind of stuff were also using chatbots for IOT devices and that's what the normal workforce expect. Nowadays all have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side, our organizations want to to to engage and and grow on the customer side and have the nice interaction there. And again they are using those digital channels, all the different digital channels, maybe IOT maybe a P. I. S. To interact with those customers to bring them uh the engagement interaction they really want to have. And and in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce now everybody is working from home, challenges with maybe with uh connections and that kind of stuff, but they're also starting to leverage and that's that's where the transformation and migration starts with their their own prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enriched with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions, like the ones from IBM for example to expose that to their digital channels to their organizations and that that's the landscape how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations, How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? Uh What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around them? >>And when you talk about a process like this, which is, you know, sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? What do you want to go? What are your, what are your business needs? You know, which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. Right? Um, there are always challenges in terms of deployments are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about what are my paying points? What are my headaches here? As I know I want to make this jump. How do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way? >>Yeah, definitely. And, and, and, and uh, the ones I explained already which are, are on the workforce site and on the customer side, you want to have the engagements there, you ought to have the interactions there and then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. And how do I implement this landscape in in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data and situate that it is secure? How do I I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using and how do I make all these moving parts, uh, consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to how do I make it secure? So, so those are definitely big enterprise challenges that compliance is security and that kind of stuff. But also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really and integrated solution on its own so that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now, but they are also ready for the digital channels. We don't know yet. We'll start calling uh, biggest challenges after you >>get into that a little bit later too, because you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the hearing now is, but you just talked about building for the future building for more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly, we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility, that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable. >>Yeah, and, and, and that's what every organization tries to be an agile, flexible resilient. Uh, and you need to build your system conformed that and, and uh, where we normally start with, you need to have a clear foundation and and and, and and the foundation when, for example, when you are using the cloud for it, uh, every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that that those digital channels can, can connect really easy to it and that the capabilities, the business capabilities created are done by product teams. Product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities? You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation, that's where you are are dishing your security. Every application was landing on the Foundation has secured. Uh, you are embracing a standard way of working, although not every devops teams like that, they want to be self organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or 100 devops teams, you want to have some kind of standardization and provide them away. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on on those kinds of business capabilities. So, so the clerk Foundation is the base mm that needs to be in place. >>You've been doing this for a long time and, you know, the conversation used to be, you know, should we move to the cloud? You know, can we move to the cloud now? It's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud, you know? Um So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm, if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of, you know, the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen in a much faster pace than it could have just, you know, a very short time ago. >>And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy things should be the rifle, that's what you want to do with your for your concept, it's and and and that's where you should focus on as an organization, for example, what we put in place and we put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place, in what we call in an inner source library. And in that inner source library, for example, we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates, all kinds of standardization. Four teams who either want to to deploy open shift on that platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs that they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of the organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation you have your cloud management, the IBM Club Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios. Different organizational units, wants to start using different clouds in there and and and also for the migration part. You want to have that grow from there and standardization Inner Source and having those templates ready. It's it's, it's, it's key for organizations now to, to to speed up and be ready to start joking around with red workloads on any cloud where you want to add that. That's the idea. >>Sure. So red hats involved in issue and IBM involved as well. Obviously your partnership working with them um talk about that kind of merger of resources if you will. And in terms of how what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day, they have that kind of firepower working on their behalf. >>Yeah, that's for example, I B M is for us, a very important partner, definitely on the hybrid multi cloud scenarios where we can leverage open shift on on on those kinds of platforms for our customers. We created what I said uh templates, scripts, we use the IBM garage project for it to create deployments for our teams in the kind of self serving way to deploy those open shift clusters on top of the cloud platform day of their choice. And then for sure with the multi cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the landing zone and that's actually the whole I. D. And you want to give the flexibility and the speed uh to your devoPS teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing and then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they put in the work loads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM read that over shift comes in play and and because they have already such a great tool sets ready, they really think devoPS, that's what I really like. Also with the migrations it comes with a lot of devops capabilities in they're not playing lift shift but also the modernization immediately in there. And and that's what I like about our partnership which made the IBM it says they are devops in mind also that, that's, that's cool. >>What about the speed here? Just in general? Just but almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space because it used to be like these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like and where evolutions transitions were to take a long period of time, it's not the case anymore. You know, things are happening in relatively lightning speed. Um, so when you're talking with the organization about the kinds of changes they can make and the speed at which they can do that marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having and if I'm a, you know Ceo out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch convinced me right now, the, the key factors right? And and how, how easy, how right will this be for me? >>So as a C I. O. You want to have your, your scalable and you're flexible organization. Probably at this moment you are sitting with your thumb print system with probably a very large relational database with, with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there at a great way with IBM with red hat is that we can deploy open shift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components around the big relational database. We were starting to do that. We can do that really at at light speeds and then there are, we, we have a factory Modell up and running where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, okay, this one is quite easy, we are running it to our modernization street and it runs into a container and from there you start to to untangle actually the hairball of your whole application landscape and started to move those components and you definitely want to prioritize them. And, and that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application and escape off a customer having the descriptions with those customers and then say, okay, we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the code of these and then we are going to move these and we really start rocking fast, moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start enrich those digital channels you want to do that and have. >>Right, well, a great process and I love your analogies by the way you talk about hairball here, I totally get it. Clemens, Thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Cap Jim and I story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >>Thank you very much. >>All right, so what we have learned one thing, the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Cap gemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM think initiative here on the cube. Mhm. Yeah, Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeffrey here with the Q. Come to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a big big reveal. We're excited to be here. It's the biz. Opps manifesto, unveiling things been in the works for a while and we're excited. Have our next guest one of the really the powers behind this whole effort. And he's joining us from Boston. It's surge Lucio, the vice president and general manager Enterprise software division that Broadcom Serge, Great to see you. >>Good to see. Oh, absolutely. So you've been >>in this business for a very long time? You've seen a lot of changes in technology. What is the biz Ops manifesto? What is this coalition all about? Why do we need this today in in 2020? >>Yeah, so? So I've been in this business for close to 25 years, writes about 25 years ago, the agile manifesto was created, and the goal of the actual manifesto was was really to address the uncertainty around software development and the inability to predict the effort to build software. And if you if you roll that kind of 20 years later and if you look at the current state of the industry, the Product Project Management Institute estimates that we're wasting about a million dollars every 20 seconds in digital transformation initiatives that do not deliver on business results. In fact, we we recently served, uh, the number of executives in partnership with Harvard Business Review and 77% off. Those executives think that one of the key challenges that they have is really at the collaboration between business and I t. And that that's been kind of a case for almost 20 years now. Eso the key challenge we're faced with is really that we need a new approach. And many of the players in the industry, including ourselves, have been using different terms. Right? Some are. We are talking about value stream management. Some are talking about software delivery management. If you look at the site reliability engineering movement, in many ways it embodies a lot of this kind of concepts and principles. So we believe that it became really imperative for us to crystallize around kind of one concept and so In many ways, the Bezos concept and the bazaars manifesto are out, bringing together a number of ideas which have been emerging in the last five years or so and defining the key values and principles to finally helped these organizations truly transform and become digital businesses. And so the hope is that by joining our forces and defining kind of key principles and values, we can help kind of the industry not just by, you know, providing them with support, but also tools and consulting that is required for them to truly achieve that kind of transformation, that everybody's >>right, right? So co vid Now we're six months into it, approximately seven months into it. Um, a lot of pain, a lot of bad stuff still happening. We've got a ways to go. But one of the things that on the positive side, right and you've seen all the memes and social media is a driver of digital transformation and a driver of change. Because we have this light switch moment in the middle of March and there was no more planning, there was no more conversation. You suddenly got remote. Workforce is everybody's working from home, and you gotta go, right, So the reliance on these tools increases dramatically. But I'm curious, you know, kind of short of the beginnings of this effort and short of kind of covert, which, you know, came along unexpectedly. I mean, what were those inhibitors? Because we've been making software for a very long time. Write the software development community has has adopted kind of rapid change and and iterative delivery and and sprints what was holding back the connection with the business side to make sure that those investments were properly aligned with outcomes. >>Well, so So that you have to understand that I ts is kind of its own silos. And traditionally it has been treated as a cost center within large organizations and not as a value center. And so as a result, kind of the traditional dynamic between the I t. And the business is basically one of a kind of supplier to to kind of a business on. Do you know if you could go back? Thio? I think Elon Musk a few years ago, basically, at these concepts, off the machines to build the machines and you went as far as saying that the machines or the production line is actually the product, so meaning that the core of the innovation is really about building kind of the engine to deliver on the value. And so, in many ways, way have missed on this shift from, um, kind of I t becoming this kind of value center within the enterprises and any told about culture now culture is is the sum total of behaviors and the realities that if you look at the i t, especially in the last decade with the agile with develops with hybrid infrastructures, it's it's way more volatile today than it was 10 years ago. And so the when you start to look at the velocity of the data, the volume of data, the variety of data to analyze kind of the system, um, it's very challenging for I t. To actually even understand and optimize its own processes, let alone to actually include business as kind of an integral part of kind of a delivery chain. And so it's both kind of a combination off culture which is required a za well as tools, right to be able to start to bring together all these data together and then given the volume variety velocity of the data. We have to apply some core technologies which have only really, truly emerging last 5 to 10 years around machine learning and knowledge. And so it's really kind of a combination of those freaks which are coming together today. Truly, organizations get to the next level, >>right? Right. So let's talk about the manifesto. Let's talk about the coalition, the Biz Ops Coalition. I just like that you put down these really simple you know, kind of straightforward core values. You guys have four core values that you're highlighting, you know, business outcomes over individual projects and outputs, trust and collaboration over side load teams and organizations, data driven decisions. What you just talked about, you know, over opinions and judgment on learned, responded Pivot. I mean, surgery sounds like pretty basic stuff, right? I mean, aren't isn't everyone working to these values already? And I think you touched on it on culture, right? Trust and collaboration, data driven decisions. I mean, these air fundamental ways that people must run their business today or the person that's across the street that's doing it is gonna knock him right off the block. >>Yeah, so that's very true. But so I'll mention the novel survey. We need, uh, think about six months ago and twist in partnership with an industry analyst, and we serve it again. The number of 80 executives to understand how many were tracking business outcomes somebody you have, the software executives I T executives were tracking business outcomes, and the there were. Less than 15% of these executives were actually tracking the outcomes of the software delivery. And you see that every day, right? So in my own teams, for instance, we've bean adopting a lot of these core principles in the last year or so, and we've uncovered that 16% of our resource is we're basically aligned around initiatives which were not strategic for us. I take, you know, another example. For instance, one of our customers in the airline industry uncovered, for instance, that a number of that they had software issues that led to people searching for flights and not returning any kind of availability. And yet, you know, the I T teams whether its operations software involvement were completely oblivious to that because they were completely blindsided to it. And so the connectivity between the in words metrics that Turkey is using, whether it's database I, time cycle, time or whatever metric we use in I t are typically completely divorced from the business metrics. And so at its core, it's really about starting to align the business metrics with with the the software delivered change. Right, this, uh, this system, which is really a core differentiator for these organizations. It's about connecting those two things and and starting Thio infuse some of the actual culture and principles. Um, that's emerged from the software side into the business side. Of course, the lien movement and over movements have started to change some of these dynamics on the business side. And and so I think this thesis is the moment where we were starting to see kind of the imperative to transform. Now Cuvee the obviously has been a key driver for that. The the technology is right to start to be able to leave data together and really kind of also the cultural shifts through agile fruit develops through the SRE movement, fueling business transformation. All of these things are coming together and that are really creating kind of conditions. For the Bezos Manifesto to exist. >>So, uh, Clayton Christensen, great hard professor innovator's dilemma might still my all time favorite business books, you know, talks about how difficult it is for in comments to react to to disruptive change, right, because they're always working on incremental change because that's what their customers are asking for. And there's a good our ally when you talk about, you know, companies not measuring the right thing. I mean, clearly, I t has some portion of their budget that has to go to keeping the lights on, right, that that's always the case. But hopefully that's a an ever decreasing percentage of their total activity. So, you know what should people be measuring? I mean, what are kind of the new metrics? Um, in biz ops that drive people to be looking at the right things, measuring the right things and subsequently making the right decisions investment decisions on whether they should do, you know, move Project a along or Project B. >>So there are really two things, right? So So I think what you are talking about this portfolio management, investment management, right and which, which is a key challenge, right in my own experience, right driving strategy or large scale kind of software organization for years. It's very difficult to even get kind of a base data as to who is doing what. Uh, I mean, some of our largest customers were engaged with right now are simply trying to get a very simple answer, which is how many people do I have, and that specific initiative at any point in time and just tracking that information is extremely difficult. So and and again, back to Product Project Management Institute, they have estimated that on average, I two organizations have anywhere between 10 to 20% of their resource is focused on initiatives which are not strategically aligned. So so that's one dimensional portfolio management. I think the key aspect, though that we are we're really keen on is really around kind of the alignment of the business metrics to the ICTY metrics eso I'll use kind of two simple examples, right and my background is around quality and I have always believed that fitness for purpose is really kind of a key, um, a philosophy, if you will. And so if you start to think about quality is fitness for purpose, you start to look at it from a customer point of view, right? And fitness for purpose for core banking application or mobile application are different, right? So the definition of a business value that you're trying to achieve is different on DSO the And yet if you look at our I t operations are operating there are using kind of the same type of kind of inward metrics like a database off time or a cycle time or what is my point? Velocity, right? And s o the challenge really is this inward facing metrics that the I t. Is using which are divorced from ultimately the outcome. And so, you know, if I'm if I'm trying to build a poor banking application, my core metric is likely going to be up time, right? If I'm if I'm trying to build a mobile application or maybe a social mobile app, it's probably going to be engagement. And so what you want is for everybody across I t to look at these metric and what part of the metrics withing the software delivery chain which ultimately contribute to that business metric in some cases, cycle time, maybe completely relevant. Right again. My core banking up. Maybe I don't care about cycle time. And so it's really about aligning those metrics and be able to start to differentiate. Um, the key challenge you mentioned around the around the disruption that we see is or the investors is. Dilemma now is really around the fact that many idea organizations are essentially applying the same approaches for innovation right for basically scrap work, Then they would apply to kind of over more traditional projects. And so, you know, there's been a lot of talk about to speed I t. And yes, it exists. But in reality are are really organizations truly differentiating out of the operate their their projects and products based on the outcomes that they're trying to achieve? And and this is really where bizarre is trying to affect. >>I love that. You know, again, it doesn't seem like brain surgery, but focus on the outcomes right and and it's horses for courses. As you said this project, you know what you're measuring and how you define success isn't necessarily the same as it is on this other project. So let's talk about some of the principles we talked about the values, but you know I think it's interesting that that that the bishops coalition, you know, just basically took the time to write these things down, and they don't seem all that super insightful. But I guess you just got to get him down and have them on paper and have it in front of your face. But I want to talk about, you know, one of the key ones which you just talked about, which is changing requirements right and working in a dynamic situation, which is really what's driven. You know this, the software to change and software development because, you know, if you're in a game app and your competitors comes out with a new blue sword, you've got to come out with a new blue swords. So whether you have that on your compound wall, we're not. So it's It's really this embracing of the speed of change and and and making that you know the rule, not the exception. I think that's a phenomenon. And the other one you talked about his data right and that today's organizations generate more data than humans can process. So informed decisions must be generated by machine learning and ai and you know and the big data thing with a dupe you know, started years ago. But we are seeing more and more that people are finally figuring it out that it's not just big data on It's not even generic machine learning artificial intelligence. But it's applying those particular data sets and that particular types of algorithms to a specific problem to your point, to try to actually reach an objective. Whether that's, you know, increasing the your average ticket or, you know, increasing your check out rate with with with shopping carts that don't get left behind and these types of things. So it's a really different way to think about the world in the good old days, probably when you got started, when we had big Giant you know, M R D s and P R. D s and sat down and coded for two years and and came out with a product release and hopefully not too many patches subsequently to that. Yeah, >>it's interesting right again, back to one of these service that we did with about 600 the ICTY executives and we we purposely designed those questions to be pretty open. Andi and one of them was really wrong requirements, and it was really around. Kind of. What is the best approach? What is your preferred approach towards requirements? And if I remember correctly, Over 80% of the ICTY executives said that the best approach their preferred approach is for requires to be completely defined before self for the bombing starts, let me pause there. We're 20 years after the agile manifesto, right, and for 80% of these idea executives to basically claimed that the best approach is for requires to be fully baked before solved before software development starts basically shows that we still have a very major issue again. Our apotheosis in working with many organizations is that the key challenges really the boundary between business and I t. Which is still very much contract based. If you look at the business side, they basically are expecting for I t deliver on time on budget, Right? But what is the incentive for I t to actually deliver on the business outcomes, right? How often is I t measured on the business outcomes and not on S L. A or on a budget secretary, and so that that's really the fundamental shift that we need to. We really need to drive up to send industry andi way. Talk about kind of this dis imperative for organizations to operate. That's one. And back to the, you know, various doors still, Um, no. The key difference between these large organization is really kind of a. If you look at the amount of capital investment that they can put into pretty much anything, why are they losing compared Thio? You know, startups. What? Why is it that more than 40% off personal loans today are issued not by your traditional brick and mortar banks, but by start ups? Well, the reason, Yes, it's the traditional culture of doing incremental changes, not disrupting ourselves, which Christenson covered at length. But it's also the inability to really fundamentally change kind of dynamic between business I t and partner, right, to to deliver on a specific business. All >>right, I love that. That's a great That's a great summary and in fact, getting ready for this interview. I saw you mentioning another thing where you know the problem with the agile development is that you're actually now getting mawr silos because you have all these autonomous people working you know, kind of independently. So it's even harder challenge for for the business leaders toe, as you said to know what's actually going on. But But, sir, I want to close um, and talk about the coalition eso clearly These are all great concepts, these air concepts. You want to apply to your business every day. Why the coalition? Why, you know, take these concepts out to a broader audience, including your competition and the broader industry to say, Hey, we as a group need to put a stamp of approval on these concepts. These values these principles. It's >>so first, I think we we want everybody to realize that we are all talking about the same things, the same concepts e think we were all from our own different vantage point, realizing that things have to change and again back to you know, whether it's value stream management or site reliability, engineering or biz Opps we're all kind of using slightly different languages on DSO. I think one of the important aspects of these apps is for us, all of us, whether we're talking about consulting actual transformation experts, whether we're talking about vendors right to provide sort of tools and technologies or these larger enterprises to transform for all of us to basically have kind of a reference that lets us speak around kind of in a much more consistent way. The second aspect is for to me is for these concepts to start to be embraced not just by us or trying or vendors, um, system integrators, consulting firms, educators, spot leaders but also for some of our own customers to start to become evangelists of their own in the industry. So we are. Our objective with the coalition is to be pretty, pretty broad, Um, and our hope is by by starting to basically educate our joint customers or our partners that we can start to really foster disbelievers and and start to really change some of dynamics. So we're very pleased that if you look at what some of the companies which have joined the the manifesto eso, we have vendors such as stashed up or advance or pager duty, for instance, or even planned you one of my direct competitors but also fought leaders like Tom Davenport or or Cap Gemini or smaller firms like Business Agility Institute or Agility Elf on DSO our goal really is to start to bring together. For three years, people have bean LP. Large organizations do digital transformation. Vendors were providing the technologies that many of these organizations used to deliver all these digital transformation and for all of us to start to provide the kind of education, support and tools that the industry need. >>That's great search. And, you know, congratulations to you and the team. I know this has been going on for a while putting all this together, getting people to sign onto the manifesto of putting the coalition together and finally today getting to unveil it to the world in a little bit more of a public opportunity. So again, you know, really good values, really simple principles, something that that shouldn't have to be written down. But it's nice because it is. And now you can print it out and stick it on your wall. So thank you for for sharing the story. And again, congrats to you on the team. >>Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. >>My pleasure. Alright, He surge If you wanna learn more about the bizarre manifesto goto biz Opps manifesto dot or greed it and you can sign it and you can stay here from or coverage on. The Cube of the bizarre manifesto unveiled. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angled medias >>live in. Welcome to the cube coverage here in San Francisco at Moscone hall for RSA 2020 I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We're here breaking down all the actions in cyber security. I'll say three days of wall-to-wall cube coverage. You got two great guests here, experts in the cybersecurity enterprise security space. Over 25 years. We've got two gurus and experts. We've got Bob Mindell, executive vice president of North America cyber practice for cap Gemini and Joe McMahon, head of North America cyber strategy, even a practitioner in the intelligence community. Langley, you've been in the business for 25 years. You've seen the waves guys, welcome to the cube. Thank you John. Thanks for having us. So first let's just take a step back. A cyber certainly on the number one agenda kind of already kind of broken out of it in terms of status, board level conversation, every CSO, risk management and a lot of moving parts. >>Now, cyber is not just a segment in the industry. It is the industry. Bob, this is a big part of business challenge today. What's your view? What was going on? So John has a great point. It's actually a business challenge and that's one of the reasons why it's now the top challenge. It's been a tech challenge for a long time. It wasn't always a business challenge for you as was still considered an it challenge and once it started impacting business and got into a board level discussion, it's now top of mind as a business challenge and how it can really impact the business continuity. Joe is talking before we came on camera about you know CEOs can have good days here and there and bad days then but sees us all have bad days all the time because there's so much, it's so hard. You're on the operations side. >>You see a day to day in the trenches as well as the strategy. This is really an operations operationalizing model. As new technology comes out, the challenge is operationalizing them for not only a business benefit but business risk management. It's like changing an airplane engine out at 35,000 feet. It's really hard. What are you seeing as the core challenge? This is not easy. It's a really complex industry. I mean, you take the word cybersecurity, right? Ready? Cybersecurity conference. I see technology, I see a multitude of different challenges that are trying to be solved. It means something different to everybody, and that's part of the problem is it's a really broad ecosystem that we're in. If you meet one person that says, I know all of cyber, they're lying, right? It's just like saying, I know active directory and GRC and I know DNS and I know how to, how to code, right? >>Those people don't exist and cyber is a little bit the same way. So for me, it's just recognizing the intricacies. It's figuring out the complexities, how people processing technology really fit together and it's an operation. It is an ongoing, and during operation, this isn't a program that you can run. You run it for a year, you install and you're done. There's ebbs and flows. You talked about the CISOs and the bad days. There's wins and there's losses. Yeah. And I think part of that is just having the conversation with businesses. Just like in it, you have bad days and good days wins and losses. It's the same thing in cybersecurity and we've got to set that expectation. Yeah, you didn't bring up a good point. I've been saying this on the cube and we've been having conversations around this. It used to be security as part of it, right? >>But now that it's part of the business, the things that you're mentioning around people, process, technology, the class, that kind of transformational formula, it is business issues, organizational behavior. Not everyone's an expert specialism versus generalists. So this is like not just a secure thing, it's the business model of a company is changing. So that's clear. There's no doubt. And then you've got the completion of the cloud coming, public cloud, hybrid multi-cloud. Bob, this is a number one architectural challenge. So outside of the blocking and tackling basics, right, there's now the future business is at risk. What does cap Gemini do? And because you guys are well known, great brand, helping companies be successful, how do you guys go to customers and say, Hey, here's what you do. What's the, what's the cap Gemini story? >>So the cat termini stories is really about increasing your cybersecurity maturity, right? As Joe said, starting out at the basics. If you look at a lot of the breaches that have occurred today have occurred because we got away from the basics and the fundamentals, right? Shiny new ball syndrome. Really. Exactly exasperates that getting away from the basics. So the technology is an enabler, but it's not the be all and end all right, go into the cloud is absolutely a major issue. That's increasing the perimeter, right? We've gone through multiple ways as we talked about, right? So now cloud is is another way, cloud, mobile, social. How do you deal with those from on prem, off prem. But ultimately it's about increasing your cyber cyber security maturity and using the cloud as just increasing the perimeter, right? So you need to, you really need to understand, you have your first line defense and then your maturity is in place. Whether the data resides in your organization, in the cloud, on a mobile device, in a social media, you're responsible for it all. And if you don't have the basics, then you're, you're really, and you guys bring a playbook, is that what you guys come in and do? Correct. Correct. Right. So our goal is to coordinate people, process technology and leverage playbooks, leverage the run books that we had been using for many years. >>I want to get down to you on this one because of what happens when you take that to the, into the practitioner mode or at implementation. Customers want the best technology possible. They go for the shiny new choice. Bob just laid out. There's also risks too because it may or may not be big. So you've got to balance out. I got to get an edge technically because the perimeters becoming huge surface area now or some say has gone. Now you've got edge, just all one big exposed environment, surface area for vulnerabilities is massive. So I need better tech. How do you balance and obtain the best tech and making sure it works and it's in production and secure. So there's a couple of things, right, and this is not, it's not just our, and you'll hear it from other people that have been around a long time, but a lot of organizations that we see have built themselves so that their cybersecurity organization is supporting all these tools that we see. >>That's the wrong way to do it. The tools should support the mission of the organization, right? If my mission is to defend my enterprise, there are certain things that I need to do, right? There's questions I need to be able to ask and get answers to. There's data I need visibility into. There's protections and controls I need to be able to implement. If I can lay those out in some coordinated strategic fashion and say, here's all the things I'm trying to accomplish, here's who's going to do it. Here's my really good team, here's my skilled resources, here's my workflows, my processes, all that type of stuff. Then I can go find the right technology to put into that. And I can actually measure if that technology is effective in supporting my mission. But too often we start with the technology and then we hammer against it and we run into CISOs and they say, I bought all this stuff and it's not working and come hell yeah. >>And that's backing into it the wrong. So I've heard from CSOs, I'd like they buying all these tools. It's like a tool shed. Don't be the fool with the wrong tool as they I say. But that brings up the question of, okay, as you guys go to customers, what are some of the main pain points or issues that they're trying to overcome that that are opportunities that you guys are helping with? Uh, on the business side and on the technical side, what are some of the things? So on the business side, you know, one is depending on their level of maturity and the maturity of the organization and the board of directors and their belief in, in how they need to help fund this. We can start there. We can start by helping draw out the threat landscape within that organization where they are maturity-wise and where they need to go and help them craft that message to the board of directors and get executive sponsorship from the board down in order to take them from baby, a very immature organization or you know, a reactive organization to an adaptive organization, right. >>And really become defenders. So from a business perspective, we can help them there. From the technology perspective, Joe, uh, you know, or an implementation perspective. I think, you know, it's been a really interesting road like being in this a long time, you know, late two thousands when nation States were first really starting to become a thing. All the industries we were talking to, every customer is like, I want to be the best in my industry. I want to be the shining example. And boards in leadership were throwing money at it and everybody was on this really aggressive path to get there. The conversation is shifted a little bit with a lot of the leadership we talked to. It's, I just want to be good enough, maybe a little bit better than good enough, but my, my objective anymore is it to leave the industry. Cause that's really expensive and there's only one of those. >>My objective is to complete my mission maybe a little bit above and beyond, but I need the right size and right. So we spent a lot of time helping organizations, I would say optimize, right? It's what is the right level of people, what is the right amount of resources, what's the right spend, what's the right investment, the right allocation of technology and mix of everything, right? And sometimes it's finding the right partner. Sometimes it's doing certain things in house. It's, there's no one way to solve this problem, but you've got to go look at the business challenges. Look at the operational realities of the customer, their budgets, all those, their geographies mattered, right? Some places it's easy to hire talent. Some places it's not so easy to hire talent. And that's a good point, right? Some organizations, >>they just need to understand what does good look like and we can, we have so many years of experience. We have so many customers use skates is we've been there and we've done that. We can bring the band and show them this is what good looks like and this is sustainable >>of what good looks like. I want to get your reactions to, I was talking to Keith Alexander, general Keith Alexander, a former cyber command had last night and we were talking about officers, his defense and that kind of reaction. How the Sony hack was was just was just, they just went after him as an example. Everyone knows about that hack, but he really was getting at the idea of human efficiency, the human equation, which is if you have someone working on something that here, but their counterpart might be working on it maybe from a different company or in the same company, they're redundant. So there's a lot of burnout, a lot of people putting out fires. So reactive is clearly, I see as a big trend that the conversation's shifting towards let's be proactive, let's get more efficient in the collaboration as well as the technology. What you, how do you guys react to that? What's your view on that statement? So >>people is the number one issue, in my opinion. In this space, there's a shortage of people. The people that are in it are working very long hours. They're burnt out. So we constantly need to be training and bringing more people into the industry. Then there's the scenario around information sharing, right? Threat information sharing, and then what levels are you comfortable with as an organization to share that information? How can you share best practices? So that's where the ice sacks come into play. That's also where us as a practitioner and we have communities, we have customers, we bring them together to really information, share, share, best practice. It's in all of our best interests. We all have the same goal and the goal is to protect our assets, especially in the United States. We have to protect our assets. So we need, the good thing is that it's a pretty open community in that regards and sharing the information, training people, getting people more mature in their people, process technology, how they can go execute it. >>Yeah. What's your take on the whole human equation piece? Right? So sharing day, you probably heard a word and the word goes back to where I came from, from my heritage as well, but I'm sure general Alexander used the word mission at some point, right? So to me, that's the single biggest rallying point for all of the people in this. If you're in this for the right reasons, it's because you care about the mission. The mission is to defend us. Stop the bad guys from doing days, right? Whether you're defending the government, whether you're defending a commercial enterprise, whether you're defending the general public, right? Whatever the case is, if you're concerned, you know, if you believe in the mission, if you're committed to the mission, that's where the energy comes from. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of talk about the skill gap and the talent gap and all of those types of things. >>To me, it's more of a mindset issue than anything. Right? The skill sets can be taught. They can be picked up over time. I was a philosophy major. All right? Somehow I ended up here. I have no idea how, um, but it's because I cared about the mission and everybody has a part to play. If you build that peer network, uh, both at an individual level and at an organizational and a company level, that's really important in this. Nobody's, nobody's an expert at everything. Like we said, you brought a philosophy. I think one of the things I have observed in interviewing and talking to people is that the world's changed so much that you almost need those fresh perspectives because the problems are new problems, statements, technology is just a part of the problem set back to the culture. The customer problem, Bob, is that they got to get all this work done. >>And so what are some of the use cases that you guys are working on that that is a low hanging fruit in the industry or our customer base? How do you guys engage with customers? So our target market is fortune 500 global 1000 so the biggest of the big enterprises in the world, right? And because of that, we've seen a lot of a complex environments, multinational companies as our customers. Right? We don't go at it from a pure vertical base scenario or a vertical base solution. We believe that horizontal cybersecurity can it be applied to most verticals. Right. And there's some tweaking along the way. Like in financial services, there's regulars and FFIC that you need to be sure you adapt to. But for the most part the fundamentals are applicable. All right. With that said, you know, large multinational manufacturing organization, right? They have a major challenge in that they have manufacturing sites all over the world. >>They building something that is, you know, unique. It has significant IP to it, but it's not secure. Historically they would have said, well, nobody's really gonna just deal steal what we do because it's really not differentiated in the world, but it is differentiated and it's a large corporation making a lot of money. Unfortunately ransomware, that'd be a photographer. Ransomware immediately, right? Like exact down their operations and their network, right? So their network goes down. They can have, they can, they can not have zero downtown and their manufacturing plants around the world. So for us, we're implementing solutions and it's an SLA for them is less than six seconds downtime by two that help secure these global manufacturing environment. That's classic naive when they are it. Oh wow. We've got to think about security on a much broader level. I guess the question I have for you guys, Joe, you talk about when do you guys get called in? >>I mean what's your main value proposition that you guys, cause you guys got a broad view of the industry, that expertise. Why do, why are customers calling you guys and what do you guys deliver? They need something that actually works, right? It's, it's you mentioned earlier, I think when we were talking how important experiences, right? And it's, Bob said it too, having been there, done that I think is really important. The fact that we're not chasing hype, we're not selling widgets. That we have an idea of what good looks like and we can help an organization kind of, you know, navigate that path to get there is really important. So, uh, you know, one of our other customers, large logistics company, been operating for a very long time. You know, very, very mature in terms of their, it operations, those types of things. But they've also grown through merger and acquisition. >>That's a challenge, uh, cause you're taking on somebody else's problem set and they just realize, simply put that their existing security operations wasn't meeting their needs. So we didn't come in and do anything fancy necessarily. It's put a strategic plan in place, figure out where they are today, what are the gaps, what do they need to do to overcome those gaps? Let's go look at their daily operations, their concept of operations, their mission, their vision, all of that stuff down to the individual analysts. Like we talked about the mindset and skillset. But then frankly it's putting in the hard work, right? And nobody wants to put in the heart. I don't want to say nobody wants to put in the hard work. That's fun. There's a lot of words that's gets done I guess by the questions that you guys getting called in on from CSOs chief and Mason security officers. >>Guess who calls you? So usually we're in talking to the Cisco, right? We're having the strategic level conversation with the Cisco because the Cisco either has come in new or has been there. They may have had a breach. Then whatever that compelling event may be, they've come to the realization that they're not where they need to be from a maturity perspective and their cyber defense needs revamping. So that's our opportunity for us to help them really increase the maturity and help them become defenders. Guys, great for the insight. Thanks for coming on the cube. Really appreciate you sharing the insights. Guys. Give a quick plug for what you guys are doing. Cap Gemini, you guys are growing. What do you guys look to do? What are some of the things that's going on? Give the company plug. Thanks Sean show. It's been a very interesting journey. >>You know this business started out from Lockheed Martin to Leidos cyber. We were acquired by cap Gemini a year ago last week. It's a very exciting time. We're growing the business significantly. We have huge growth targets for 2020 and beyond, right? We're now over 800 practitioners in North America, over 2,500 practitioners globally, and we believe that we have some very unique differentiated skill sets that can help large enterprises increase their maturity and capabilities plug there. Yeah, I mean, look, nothing makes us happier than getting wins when we're working with an organization and we get to watch a mid level analyst brief the so that they just found this particular attack and Oh by the way, because we're mature and we're effective, that we were able to stop it and prevent any impact to the company. That's what makes me proud. That's what makes it so it makes it fun. >>Final question. We got a lot of CSOs in our community. They're watching. What's the pitch to the CSO? Why, why you guys, we'd love to come in to understand what are their goals, how can we help them, but ultimately where do they believe they think they are and where do they need to go and we can help them walk that journey. Whether it's six months, a year, three years, five years. We can take them along that journey and increase the cyber defense maturity. Joe, speak to the CSO. What are they getting? They're getting confidence. They're getting execution. They're getting commitment to delivery. They're getting basically a, a partner in this whole engagement. We're not a vendor. We're not a service provider. We are a partner. A trusted partner. Yeah, partnerships is key. Building out in real time. A lot new threats. Got to be on offense and defense going on. A lot of new tech to deal with. I mean, it's a board level for a long time. Guys, thanks for coming on. Cap Gemini here inside the cube, bringing their practices, cybersecurity, years of experience with big growth targets. Check them out. I'm John with the cube. Thanks for watching.

(energetic electronic music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and welcome to a special Cube interview here at the Schneider Electric offices in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program a first-time guest, Hervé Coureil, who is the Chief Digital Officer at Schneider Electric. Thank you so much for having us-- >> Oh, thanks for having me. >> It's a little rainy, but that's what we can expect in Boston-- >> Don't say that. >> But, lovely view. Thanks so much. >> Thank you. >> Great, so first of all, give us a little bit about your background. You're the Chief Digital Officer today, we love talkin' to the CDOs, you've been a CIO, you've been a CFO, and we'll definitely get into some of the organizational dynamics as to who reports to whom and who owns what and the like. >> Sure, so, you know, in the day, I started in finance, actually, I did a lot of work in M&A. After a while, we are quite a pretty large company called APC and I became the CFO, and really, working essentially on post-modular integration, right? So how do we put all those pieces together? And when you do that, you quickly realize that actually technology is on the critical path all the time, so you know, I developed quite a keen interest at that time for technology, and that's when Schneider decided, really, to change its setup, to evolve its organization with a program called One Schneider. We created the CFO position and that's where, basically, I took the helm as the CIO for Schneider Electric. And you know, over time, when digital became a thing, it was not just about, you know, how you digitize the company, it was also how you create a digital business, so that's how we created Schneider Digital and I became the CDO. So all of this sounds like super logical right now, of course it was more complicated than that. But that's a view of the whole arc of the story. >> Yeah, lots of politics, we understand, organizations, large M&As, we understand that there's challenges, things to work through. If you could, for our audience, just frame Schneider Electric. I actually, you know, disclaimer, I worked for American Power Conversion way back longer than I'd like to even admit, but you know, uninterrupted power supplies, they really helped create a market, and had some excellent technology, strong engineering background, which is what led me to that company, but Schneider Electric today, of course, much bigger than just APC, give us a little bit of a frame. >> So, Schneider Electric is a pretty large global corporation, I think we employ something like 140,000 people, so pretty large multi-billion company. We basically are in the business of energy management and industry automation, we are specialists of that. Our core value proposition is really bringing efficiency and sustainability to our customer. We do that in a number of areas, whether it's buildings, whether it's, you know, large infrastructures, data centers, factory floors, and industry all processes, but sort of a core common thread, if you will, is how you bring efficiency, sustainability to our customers. >> Great, you talked a little bit about your background as a CFO was to help with the merger. Bring us up to what is your role as a Chief Data Officer, what is the mandate you have? We're going to spend some time unpacking digital transformation. We always say the difference between a company before and after that digital transformation is, you know, data is so important, you must be data driven, you must understand it, and therefore often there is a CDO involved. So, what led to this role? And what is that specific mandate that you have? >> Sure, so, you know, I did mention just before that, you know, we had the concept of efficiency, right? We try really, we have a value prop about, you know, safety, reliability that over time evolves towards efficiency and sustainability. And in order to provide efficiency, whether it's in a building, whether it's an industry, or building a process, what needs to happen is not just with hardware, right? You need to be able to extract data from products, from systems, you need to be able to make sense of that data, to analyze it and then to act on it, right? To sort of close the loop from data to insight, insights to action, so that's where for us, the digital transformation was not just about digitizing ourselves, but it was also about augmenting the value proposition that we have for our customers, augmenting what we can offer our customer base. We offer services that could push the boundaries of, you know, efficiency and sustainability and then we're all about adding an information component, right? A data component on top of, you know, the best hardware and software. So that's sort of of the evolution and you were speaking about the mandate. So the mandate is really around four things. First is really, is of a digital business so how we create digital offers that are going to augment to complement our existing offers, making, you know, taking advantage of cloud, taking advantage of analytics, AIs, and providing, you know, predictive maintenance, providing optimization services, right? That can augment our value prop. It's also about bringing the ecosystem of partners that can really reinforce those value props for those digital affairs. So it's really first about that digital business, then it's about digitizing our sales and it's three things. It's first how we engage customers, so customers and partners who're thinking about what's our digital footprint? How we create basically a digital experience for our customers and partners that is even better than the one we're having in the physical world. Then it's about operation, so our backend systems, you know, making sure that we have a backend system that scales. And the last mandate is security. >> Okay, it's a pretty broad mandate. A lot of things going on, 140,000 people working for Schneider, not to mention you talked about your customers, your partners, all of these things. >> Hervé: Absolutely. >> You know, what's the scope of this, how many years ago did this start? Is there a phased rollout that you're looking, is there, you know, was there just a budget assigned to it? Bring us a little bit as to how this all rolls out. >> So, sure, a couple of things. I would say, so we started three years ago, really, with digital mandate. Only that started well before because actually, you know, if you're in the business of industrial automation, you haven't waited the advent of IOT to connect machines to a supervisor regulator to controls, etc. Now what happened is, of course, the power of a cloud, the power of analytics, and you could take things even further. So really three years ago was when we started thinking about Schneider Digital, and the way we thought about it is we didn't want it to be something totally on the side of the business, so it's not a separate P&L, it's not, you know, a separate organization, we're serving the businesses, we're augmenting the businesses, we're providing them with transversal capabilities, we're providing our businesses with digital services platform-level component that they can reuse, etc. So that they can go faster in addressing their customers. And it was critical for us to find that sort of appropriate distance, if you will, because you need to incubate a digital business, but at the same time, if it just happens on the side, you never augment the core. And so you kind of lose, right? The main benefit out of it. >> Yeah, it's nice that you have the background of also being a CIO. Everything that I'm hearing you talking about is what we hear from many leading companies out there, that it's, right, it's not just doing what the business asks, it's helping to often create new products or, you know, in many cases, even, you know, it's innovation helping to drive the business. I want to, you mentioned at the end of one of your last pieces, talked about security. That's something critical when you're talking about data, and in your CDO role, tell us a little bit about the security of how that's involved in this total solution. >> Sure, so far as you know, it's of course became, you know, more and more important over time. And we're really here to rethink how we're approaching security, right? Going away from this idea of defending the perimeter, moving to concepts much more like a zero trust approach because the world has changed with employees that like to work from, you know, their taxis and planes, and we had really to rethink the posture, right?, of Schneider Electric, and also how we work with customers, and we can help, how we can help our own customers improving the cybersecurity of their building or industrial operations, right? So we have, we see it as a pretty broad mandate, actually, quite end-to-end, it's not just about, you know, building thick walls, I think the times of perimeter defense are long gone, but it's really about thinking about it as a full cycle from identification to recovery and putting a risk-based approach and some, you know, continuous improvement approach into it. A lot of discipline, basically. >> All right, and Hervé, are there some partners that were important in this digital transformation? >> So overall or specific in security? >> Both, yeah. >> So yes, I mean, we have big partners, and you know, you wouldn't, you could guess, right? I mean, of course you know we are working a lot with Amazon, we're working a lot with Microsoft, we're working a lot with Salesforce, on the system integration side, you know, we work with Cap Gemini, with Accenture, so we have, of course, a bunch of yeah, of traditional partners, you know, you would expect. I mean, we try to be more and more very considerate about what we want to do ourselves and when we basically, you know, delegate some functional points to partners. And then we also created an ecosystem of partners around security and Schneider is a very partner-centric company because we actually work with through partners most of the time. So, you know, working as an ecosystem is actually something that's pretty natural to us, we just had to learn how to do it in the digital age. >> Yeah, that's great, a company of your size, right? It's not only the suppliers there, but building that ecosystem, yeah. Anything more on the security side that you want to call out, regarding that journey? >> So, you know, we've been working, we've developed a lot. I mean, we felt that security was, it takes a village, right? And the ecosystem approach was even more important, so we've been working with Zscaler on a network-level security, we've been working with IBM and Deloitte, on other areas, we've been working with Cylance as well, I mean, I wouldn't, there's a long list, right? But we've tried to build an ecosystem both at a surface level and at a solution level 'cause the problem often with security is that, you know, you can have a lot of point solutions that would solve a very narrow problem, but it's really, you know, what really makes a difference is your ability to integrate, is your ability to have a pane of glass where you can figure out correlations and then pretty quickly take action, so it's striking that balance between adding solution that would add you a new source of information, you understanding of your context with the ability to act on this information. >> Yeah, and Hervé, what lessons have you learned going through this? You talked about the balance between what you do in-house versus what you look to outside, that's a general trend we've seen in cloud for the last 10 years or more, so, you know, looking back at what you've done so far in three years, any advice that you'd give to your peers? >> Probably three things. So the first thing you mentioned is the ecosystem, right? Is that it's not us versus them, it's how you embark an ecosystem of partners and how you bring some logic in that ecosystem. So that's really key. The second thing is really scale. I think I always say that in digital, it's always super easy, you know, to come with the latest shiny object, do a proof of concept, etc. But usually, that doesn't matter. The key sauce, the secret sauce is how you scale. Often and in particular in today's world, people tend to have a misconception of scale, that this is just size. Actually, very often in, you know, in digital, scale is about replicability, it's how easy can you replicate? Which is a slightly different concept when you think about it. But thinking scale first, I mean, you know, is so critical to us. And the third point would be performance management, actually, we've spent a lot of time defining, or maybe that's my roots as a finance person a long time ago, but it's, you know, what does success mean, right? What are the metrics of success? We'll call them the true north. What true norths are we pursuing? And how do we allocate resource? Because at the end of the day, you'll only scale if you're able to allocate resource, so if you want to have a sophisticated digital organization, you need to start by having a sophisticated resource allocation process. >> Yeah, how about the outcomes? You know, what if ultimately your end user customers, what do they see out of this digital transformation? And also would love if there's any commentary on the employees, we understand, you know, getting them involved in training and the like can be challenging, but you know, ultimately, you know, how does digital impact both your external and internal customers? >> Sure, so, let me unpack that, right? In terms of true north or outcomes, the key thing we look at first is how we create the digital business, on how much are we creating adoption, right? With our customers. So we really track, you know, how many new things we and our ecosystem, how much more value are we creating to our customers? Are those customers adopting those new value points? Those new solutions? Those new ideas? So, and of course, you know, how much are we growing behind that, etc.? But it's really this idea of value and adoption to start with. When we look at the engagement, the customer side, we look at the customer satisfaction in the physical world and we compare it with the customer satisfaction in the digital world. And we want the two to be at par. When it comes to the backend, we look at how much we're simplifying that backend, so we're tracking technical depth and so forth. And then on security, we look at external scoring so that we always, you know, keep ourselves (laughs) right next to the external assessment and how we're doing. So that's basically, you know, how we look at the four dimensions that I was mentioning at the beginning. To answer the second part of your question, which was more about employees, I mean, it's a huge effort, of course, you know, creating the organization, a lot of recruitments, a lot of training, we've been working a lot on, you know, providing you with a digital citizenship course on up to very technical course we found completely our approach to learning, and there are many, many aspects of the employee experience that we've been working on, I mean, providing mobility, providing, you know, on finding that balance, right? Between security and enabling the new world of work where people are going to work on the go and offering them a much better level of access basically to the corporate resources, mobile, and so forth. This has been a massive transformation over a year. >> Hervé, the last thing I'd like to ask you, Just, you know, the changing dynamics of organizations today, as we started out talking, you know, CDO is still a relatively new role out there. The role of the CIO has changed an awful lot, you know, over the length of our careers, so, you know, what are you seeing in those dynamics? You've worn both of those hats and you know, where do you see things going and any feedback you'd give to the industry to make the lives easier of the CDOs and CIOs out there? >> Well, I think it's, you know, I would say I've seen the roles held very differently from an industry to another. So, you know, it's probably hard to replicate from, you know, the energy management and industrial automation industry to others, but in an industry like ours, where the products are becoming digital because basically, you know, you want to create data in the real world, you want to be able to process that data, create insights from that data, and then you want to be able to act in the real world based on those data. You really need to look at those two aspects, and there was a great, actually, paper from MIT a while ago about digitized on digital, so really, I really like to say digital is really about creating this digital business, you know? Real world data, transforming this real world data in insights and action and then acting in the real world, while CIO is mostly being about how you are digitizing the company, right? So, the employee experience, the customer experience, the partner experience, having transforming your backend into a machine that scales, and both equally share that last mandate that's even a broader mandate, at the level of the enterprise that goes with security. So that's how I would roughly, if you will, you know, define the space. >> Hervé Coureil, thank you so much for sharing your experiences, it's been a pleasure talking with you. >> Hervé: Thanks for having me. >> All right, I'm Stu Miniman, we're here at Schneider Electric's office in Boston, Massachusetts, and as always, thanks for watchin' theCUBE. (energetic electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's The Cube, covering Sapphire Now, headlining sponsored by SAP HANA Cloud, the leader in platform as a service, with support from Consolink, the cloud internet company. Now, here are your hosts, John Furrier and Peter Burse. >> Welcome back everyone, we are here live in Orlando, Florida for Sapphire Now, SiliconeANGLE Media's exclusive coverage of Sapphire. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burse. This is our flagship program, we go out to the events, and extract the citizen noise, you're watching The Cube. I want to do a shout-out to our sponsors. Without their help, we would not be here. SAP HANA Cloud Platform, Consolink at CONSOL Cloud, hot start up in Silicone Valley, and also we have Cap Gemini, we have EMC. Thanks so much for your support. Our next guest is Gaby Corin, who's the EVP of the Americas for Panaya, accompanied about a year ago by Infosys, now a part of Infosys. Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you so much. >> Congratulations on the acquisition over a yeah ago, but you guys are to a part of the big machinery of Infosys, which is tier one systems integrated part of SAP's global channel, as they call it, but essentially, you're out serving customers all over the world. >> Gaby: That is correct, yes. >> At Infosys, what's your role in the Infosys organization, and what does your company do? >> Okay, so, I'll start with the company. Panaya was founded ten years ago. Our quest is to help customers to perform all their changes in their ERP environment. We basically analyze the environment, create that mapping, that baseline that helps them understand exactly what they're dealing with, then we support them in scoping out the changes, and then, we work with them throughout the journey of executing on all the testing cycles associated with all the changes. We serve about two thousand customers, and we are a hundred percent cloud-based solution. My role as EVP for the Americas is to support all customers in the region, and we're working very closely with Infosys into bringing Panaya as part of their offering to accelerate the processes, to bring innovation, and to bring much more efficiency to all the SAP projects and activities that they perform with our customers. >> We had the global partner person on earlier, and that was the big point, innovation's now at the center, not just delivery, which Infosys has been great at, but also other things, innovation, time is very important. >> Exactly. >> Your solution speeds things up, so share with us what it is, is it a SAS space? Is it code analyzers? Is it for QA? Is it for testing? What specifically do you guys solve? What problem do you solve? >> Great question. First of all, we are a SAS-based solution, so we do everything in the cloud. This helps, as you said, perform all the tasks faster and more efficiently. The pain that we're coming to address is the fact that change is constant in the ERP. The ERP is never an island, never an isolated solution. It's always in changes, the core of a lot of the businesses that we meet here, so change is their reality, they need to change all the time. They are highly customized, so every change that come from the vendor or from the business requires a lot of preparation and very fast execution, and this is where Panaya plays. We simulate the change virtually in the cloud, and we tell customers in advance what is going to happen to their environment all the way to the code line level what exactly is going to break, how to fix it, what to test, and we support them, again, throughout all the testing cycles from the unit test or the technical test all the way to user-acceptance test, UATs, that is a big pain to organization because of the collaboration. >> It's faster is the point. So, you guys speed up the process. >> Absolutely, we speed up the process, we reduce costs, we bring customers faster to market by about fifty percent, and we allow them to do their projects at the budget that they establish or lower. >> Give me an example of someone who has the problem, and what their environment looks like. Because everyone's trying to get to the cloud, and your solution is tailor-made perfectly for the cloud because it's very dev-ops-like. It makes things go faster, it's part of that whole agile iteration speed game, which we love, but the people trying to get there that are figuring it out, what's their environment, people who have the problem? What's their environment look like? Paint the picture. >> Virtually any SAP customer needs Panaya. >> John: That's a good plug. It's complicated. >> Yes. Their environment can have one instance, or multiple instances of SAP ECCs. They all have the need for testing because they perform testing all the way. They are trying to bring some of the applications to the cloud, but not necessarily. Most of our customers still are heavily on-premise based, so what we do is that we do all the analysis in the cloud, and this is how we help them do things much faster. >> So I got to ask you the Infosys question, because I'm a big fan of Vishal Sikka. For many years, I've watched his work at SAP, certainly. He was very, very early on and very right on a lot of technical decisions around how things played out. I watched him during the SOA days, going back to the web services days, which is the late 90's, early 2000s, he had the right call and vision on web services, and then service-oriented architectures. >> Yes. >> He brought a lot of great mojo to SAP and has always been very open-source driven. >> Right. >> John: And he's just a cool guy, so what's it like working there? I mean, is he always on top of the employees? Do you talk to him? What's it like inside the company at Infosys, and specifically Vishal, what's he up to? >> First of all, he's such a visionary. You listen to him and his vision. His vision is people and software. And he wants to make a difference when it comes to supporting customers, being an SI, being at a company that creates and makes a difference. He's also very personal, so he's very approachable. He loves ideas as innovation, and he believes that the innovations come from within, so he's a huge supporter of Panaya and bringing Panaya to every single Infosys customer and opportunity, but he has that vision that you don't replace a thing, you don't replace stuff. You take something, and you bring, but you learn to collaborate, and you understand that the environments needs to be flexible, and the only way to bring that flexibility is to take the existing environment and continue to bring innovation, even if it's in small steps, you bring that innovation to the table. And this is what makes it so unique to work for a guy like him. >> The traditional systems integrator relationship, there's always been tension, a lot of tension between customers and systems integrators. >> Gaby: Yes. >> Customers say they want something. Systems integrators have the expertise to do it. Customers want it fast, systems integrators sometimes use their experience to inflate billings, but the customer increasingly is in charge in almost all global markets. The question is are you helping your customers stay more in control of Infosys engagements? And if the answer is yes, how does that improve the value proposition of Infosys? >> Okay, that's a great question. One of the reasons that Panaya remains an independent and contained organization within Infosys is, besides commitment to support that, we sell direct a lot to our customers, and we support, we remain objective, whoever the customer chooses to work with, whether it's to do it in house or to use system integrators. And we have more and more projects that there are three, four, or five system integrators that are involved, and each one does a piece of the solution, and Panaya gives that control because of their analysis, because of the support on the planning stage. We paint the right picture of where you are today, where do you want to go, and in the journey of doing that. This is one of the claims of victory of Panaya is that we bring that control back to the hands of the customers exactly as they want to, because they want to understand what are they dealing with, what are the pricing, and SIs on the other hand, also understand that prices cannot continue to be cut forever and ever. But if you don't bring that innovation, that people plus software, it will be impossible to continue to compete in this market. >> They get more net contract value on the sales as they deliver value. >> Gaby: Exactly, to the customers. >> So if they're helping their customers drive more cash and revenue-- >> Well, I would presume that it actually starts with the contracting process for a lot of these efforts is itself very, very expensive and often leads to not a lot of value, and so I presume that in response to what you just mentioned, John, that you're generating artifacts to make it easy for the customer, the SAP customer, to envision where they need to go, and those artifacts then help the SAP customer manage the integrator and the company doing it, which then dramatically reduces the contracting process. >> Gaby: Exactly. >> Because it's a lot clearer, which means I can focus more on the management of the partner-- >> You release resources, correct. >> As a set of capabilities because because it always changes along the way. >> That is correct. >> As I change, I can envision that using some of the technologies you're bringing to bear. >> That is correct, we create these assets that can be reused time and again, and then we free up resources so they can focus on innovation and additional activities. That is exactly our value proposition, you got it absolutely right. >> So, are you a consultant management system in the SAP world? >> We don't claim to be, no, we bring solutions. We're not in the consulting business at all. >> Peter: No, managing the consulting business. >> Oh, absolutely, we help to manage that process. >> Helping the customer manage those consultants. >> That is correct, that is correct. Yes, you're absolutely right. >> My final question for you, thanks for coming on The Cube, by the way, I know it's short notice. >> Thank you, thank you for having me. >> Great to have the insight. What's the biggest change in the ecosystem are you seeing today? Because you're close to the code, so you're close to all the action at Panaya and certainly Infosys is massive and global. What is the biggest change that's happening in the ecosystem, with SI's and generally across the board? >> That's a great question. One thing that we're seeing is much more competition. The customer is much more educated, exactly as you, Peter, said. The customers are much more educated, they know what they want, and they're coming in with much more control and knowledge, so we're seeing this. Customers are looking for much more long-term activities. This is why HANA is becoming such a strong, we're seeing this also here in this show how everybody's talking HANA, because it's not something that you do for the next year. It's something that is going to be with these customers for a long term. They are looking for long-term type of engagements. >> They don't have to buy a lot of HANA. They can actually put their toe in the water, if you will. The old days it was you buy SAP, and you hired the SI's, project management, delivery over a long period of time. They don't have to do that today. They can still have a long view with HANA, right? I mean, are you seeing that, too? >> Yes, and what we're seeing is, a move on this regard, we're seeing a move from best of suite into best of breed. We want on each area the best solution possible. >> Without ballooning integration and training costs. >> Correct, correct, and we fit perfectly into that story. >> Well, thanks so much. Real quick question for you. You guys have a big end-user event like Sapphire. >> Gaby: Yes. >> Didn't you just have one in San Francisco recently? Or do you have one coming up? What's going on with the events for Infosys? >> We participated in Confluence, which is a very large event of Infosys, just a couple of weeks ago. Very, very well-attended, and we-- >> John: Is that a global conference in San Francisco or is it in other areas? >> It's a global event in which the largest, the biggest customers of Infosys attend, once a year, they get together. It's all about thought leadership and sharing ideas, design thinking, which Vishal is leading very strongly. That was the main theme of the event, so we had the chance to meet a lot of our customers and prospects. Now, of course, Sapphire. >> Thank you so much for coming on, Gaby. Great to have you on The Cube, and welcome to the Cube alumni now that you're on The Cube. We are live here in Orlando for SAP Sapphire Now. I'm John Furrier with Peter Burse with the Cube. You're watching SiliconANGLE' The Cube. (futuristic music)

>> Voiceover: Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering SapphireNow. Headlines sponsored by SAP Hana Cloud, the leader in platform as a service, with support from Console, Inc., the Cloud internet company. Now, here are your hosts, John Furrier, and Peter Burris. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We are here live in Orlando, Florida, for SAP Sapphire coverage from SiliconANGLE Media, theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events, and extract the signal for the noise. Want to give a shout out to our sponsors, who allow us to get here, SAP Hana Cloud platform, Console, Inc., EMC, Cap Gemini, thanks for supporting us. We appreciate it. Our next guest is Mitch Kick, Global Vice President, Head of Strategy and Programs for SAP Global Ecosystem. We love strategy guys because, they get the chess board. And they look like they're always playing chess, 3-D chess. Been looking at the landscape, looking at the horse on the track. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you very much. Good to be here. >> It's an evolving ecosystem. It's fluid, but yet, active. The Apple announcement, certainly notable news for SAP. Certainly, the Cloud, mobile, social data trend, the confluence of those things, causing massive innovation surge. So you, got a lot going on. >> Absolutely. >> What is the current ecosystem? >> Well, you know, when you think about the way SAP looks at it's ecosystem, I mean certainly we have those traditional types of partners, who resell our product. But, when we talk about our global ecosystem, we're really talking about those partners who are either strategic service partners, technology partners, some emerging partners and names that you mentioned, like Apple, Uber, Facebook, some of these, they're not your grandfathers, SAP partners. And so, we're really moving to partner in new ways. To co-innovate new types of solutions, that take advantage of the trends in the digital landscape. >> John: Like what are you doing with Facebook? >> Well, Facebook is an example, it's something where we said, "Look, there's all this social data," "that's out there. How do we put that together with" "our Hybris, CEC, types of solutions," "our commerce solutions?". To basically allow marketers to do one-to-one marketing, that leverages the power of Facebook data, and your enterprise data, brings it together in a very manageable tool. >> That must've been a very hard deal, because they're very controlled about their data. And also, each person has their profile settings. So, that's awesome. >> Yeah, and it's something that allows for marketers to just do much more targeting, much more insightful targeting. You know, we announced that last year and over the course of the last year had a number of really interesting pilot examples. >> Can developers get involved in that Or is this more of SAP directly, kind of thing? >> Well that, is an example of where we are creating a solution that sort of packages it turnkey. But, you know when you think something like in Apple, the beauty of that one is, not only are we developing these beautiful industry applications, that are going to be in targeted industries, and I don't know if you saw them, they were out on the floor here. >> Yeah, impressive. >> With regard to retail, or with regard to.. >> Well start-ups will come out of the woodwork just in a short time, have hundreds of employees, with this ecosystem. >> Well, exactly. I guess the point I was making with the Apple deal, is not only are we working with to design some really incredible industry apps, but then we're also creating the software developer kit, making that into the Hana Cloud platform, so that if you're developing on Hana Cloud platform, it now becomes another compelling reason you can leverage these beautiful interfaces, and these beautiful tools, that take full advantage of native capabilities on the Apple devices. And so it's a way that our partnership not only delivers, kind of near-term solutions that matter for us, but enables our broader ecosystem of solution partners to capitalize. >> It's fastest to innovation. I mean, you're going to get more R and D, and then real production apps faster that way. >> Absolutely. >> From the developer. So that's Core. David Valente and I always talk about courses for horses, which is, you know, certain things fit certain ways. There seems to be now, with the Cloud platform, an opportunity for developers to come in. So I want you to explain how Hana fits in. 'Cause this, Hana Cloud and then this Hana Cloud platform. What's the difference between the two? Can you just quickly share what that means to the ecosystem? >> Well, Hana as a database, I mean, the thing about the Hana Cloud Platform is that, that creates platform for our solution partners to extend, and integrate, as well as build and develop on it. And you'd say, "Well, as a platform as a service," "are you guys using HCP, to go out there and win" "the past wars?" In the generic sense of the past, that's really not the intention. The intention is, we've got this huge installed base. We've got these service partners, who are working very closely with their customers to innovate on top of, so that once our customers move to that digital core of S4 Hana, they can use HCP as that extension and integration platform, to tie together a number of different things. And a lot of the things that are, you know, when you think about digital transformation, there is so much activity, and discussion around the customer experience, and architecting a beautiful customer experience, with mobile devices, with you know, targeted types of commerce on the front end. But, what people are coming to realize, I think, is the importance of having that end-to-end. Because, you aren't going to be able to deliver the beautiful experience. And so, the example with, you know I was on a panel yesterday with Uber and Tumi. As an example, Tumi, luxury retailer that wants to create, not only a compelling customer experience that embodies the best of its luxury brand, but also is facing the threat of Amazon Prime Same-Day delivery, in metropolitan areas. And the beauty is, by partnering with Uber, and SAP, we are able to incorporate that seamlessly, as an option for Same-Day delivery. They can deliver in 30 minutes, for seven dollars, it's game-changing. That's an example of where we provide, here at this event, an early window into the type of co-innovation that we are doing. It's sort of like, in the past where you'd think, "Well, SAP has a certain solution footprint," "and we're going to partner with other software companies," "who can plug-in to that footprint.". Now you have, in the new world, where there are industry ecosystems like Uber, platforms that you can capitalize on, it's the business network. You can plug-in business networks to, an overall solution to customers, that's really compelling and that delivers opportunities in ways that we couldn't have imagined a few years ago. >> I want to build on that. So, historically, strategy has been three to five years, tied to asset values, mainly fixed asset values, and how are we going to generate a return in those fixed asset, over an extended period of time. You're describing a world where, whereas especially as those assets become more programmable, they can be applied to a broader array of activities, and opportunities, where the horizon starts to shrink pretty dramatically, the strategic horizon. And it becomes more, "What capabilities do we have?", and "How do we improve those capabilities," "and drive them forward?". And that's a crucial way of thinking about partnerships, is partnerships, as capabilities. I think that's where you were going. >> Absolutely. >> Are you thinking now about partnerships in the ecosystem as crucial capabilities, not only for SAP, but for SAP customers? >> They've always been, in many ways, when you think about, customers need a whole solution. In the past, even when the on-prem software world, you didn't get the whole solution by just buying the software package, it required a lot of additional service. With the Cloud model's that are emerging, it's much more easy to consume the software functionality, but there still is a tremendous amount of on-going innovation, differentiation, customization. And that's why when you look at, a lot of where we're going with our solution, you can hear Mike Getlin talking about our success factors product, and the fact that, "Well, how do partners help us?", "Do our service partners help us in the same way" "of just implementing software?". No. There role is really in integrating and extending it, and creating micro-services on top of it, that then say, "This is a really unique capability" "that's essential for delivering value" "to this particular customer or client.". So, you're now finding that because of our ecosystem, that is getting plugged into these new ways of contributing, we can now have a broad array of contribution. People understand how they can plug-in and capitalize on that, and deliver real innovation and benefit to the end customer. >> So you look a lot at industry trends. As you walk the floor here, what trends are starting to emerge, for you, and what is getting you excited, as a strategist? >> From my standpoint, when you think about digital transformation, and honestly, we were joking a lot about this whole term, because when it first game out, it was sort of like, "I'm not familiar with anyone who's actually" "doing analogue transformation.". All IT is digital. We've been doing digital things for years. And transformation, I mean, I was involved in the early '90s and the big re-engineering wave. Right? Where you're re-engineering, using technology and what not, so what is really different here? And I think what we see, is that, through all these trends, there's sort of confluence of them, and people map out a dozen, two dozen different trends that are going to change the world, they speak breathlessly about all these things. But in the end, what difference does it really make? From my standpoint, it's really three. One is you're starting to see all these things change the customer experience, fundamentally. Right? To the real-time, mobile devices, one-to-one. That's being enabled now. You're also seeing the difference in how value is delivered, in terms of IOT, instrumenting the broader landscape, etc. And you're seeing a difference in business models, in terms of how value is captured. You can think about it as, "Well, how is value consumed?", "How is value being delivered?", "How is value being captured?". The real, so what, is that all these different individual technology trends are combining to make those differences happen, that enable completely different ways of making money, of growing of opportunity. >> It changes the analogue, where, the analogue piece used to be the transactional, digital then hands off to analogue, or vice versa. That whole thing, end-to-end you just talked about, is an end-to-end digital. But the analogue role of the person, is augmented differently. So what you said is interesting because, I think people look at it differently and say, "Hey, if it's digital end-to-end," "where does analogue fit in?". Well still, people walking around here at the show, we're face-to-face, so I think it's interesting when you look at the optimization of digital. I'll take sales leads, for instance or marketing automation. You know, get the form, pass the leads to the sales people, they go knock on the door, call, email, that's analogue transaction. That's now digital. >> Mitch: Right. >> But the still, analogue components. What's your thoughts on that? How do you look at it? 'Cause you still got to do business, the people still are going to be involved. >> That really hit home when we were talking about this Uber example, because everybody talks about Tumi, they were talking about, "Well, its a beautiful experience." for somebody to be able to then say, "I got a one-hour delivery.". We can all identify with going to a retail outlet and they say, "Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have any more" "of those in the store, but we've got one" "that's 40 minutes away, if you want to go drive there.". Well, what if now all of the sudden you can get the product in to this store, in the next 30 minutes? Or, deliver it to wherever you happen to be, in 30 minutes? That changes the game. >> John: And that's user experience. >> Yeah. But, the thing is, so that's nifty, that's great, it's really compelling. But, when you start thinking about what it would take to work this, okay? Well now, you're going to have to have an implication for those retail store people. And so, this notion of, "How are we making this" "a beautiful experience for the retail clerk?", who now, instead of just serving the store, is going to get pinged because, "Hey, wait a minute," "we've got some deliveries that you're going to have to" "pick and pack, to get ready for some Uber driver" "to come in." That's a change to them. So, when you talk about implication, that highlights all of the, "change management", all of the, "how does it make a difference" "in individuals work?", and there's always going to be that last mile engagement that is needed. And that's really when you start talking about trends, how do we see things changing, I think about our service partners, I see their role changing to enable the real business change. >> Well that's it, that's it. The impact is clear. Totally agree, 100%. It's the confluence that magnifies that change, and its massive. It's frickin' awesome. Everyone can look at it and say, "Damn, its going to be big!". My final question to you is, given that impact, what advice are you sharing with your ecosystem, in terms of how to prepare for it? How to be ready not to go out of business, or help your customers not go out of business? And enable them to actually compete, digitally, in the transformation. >> Well, when we look at it, part of the challenge is that the ecosystem is so diverse, that you know, often your guidelines are speaking to specific people. The one thing I would say is, everybody is going out and talking a digital message, we need to be on the same song sheet. So when your solution partner, or service partner, and you've got your own offerings, your own reference architecture's, et cetera, let's work together to make sure that we are all singing from the same sheet. Second thing is, it's really imperative that we, basically migrate our installed base, to the digital core. So, S4 Hana, getting enabled around that, making that change happen, that enables all sorts of other benefits. And the third thing would be, the importance of then leveraging Hana Cloud platform. Because, the integrations that were hard coded, from yesterday, are no longer valid. So, if you leverage Hana Cloud platform from integration standpoint, you're really allowing for this much more agile, and fluid, innovation cycle to happen, in a much faster clip. And that's really what our customers are going to need, and it's going to take all of us working together to deliver that promise, of digital transformation. >> Well the Apple deal puts you guys front and center, on the user experience side, consumerization of IT. The chess board, multiple dimensions of chess, going on at the SAP ecosystem. Mitch, thanks for coming on. >> Absolutely. >> Welcome to The Cube Alumni Club. This is The Cube here live at Sapphire, we'll be right back. You're watching, The Cube.