>> Live, from San Francisco, it's The Cube! Covering DockerCon '18. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to The Cube. We are live at DockerCon 2018 on a beautiful day in San Francisco. We're glad you're not playing hooky though if you're in the city because it's important to be here watching John Troyer and myself, Lisa Martin, talk to some awesome, inspiring guests. We're excited to welcome two Docker captains, that's right, to The Cube. We've got Nirmal Mehta, you are the chief technologist of Booz Allen. Welcome back to The Cube. And, we've got Bret Fisher, the author of Docker Mastery. Both of you, Docker captains. Can't wait to dig into that. But you're both speakers here at the fifth annual DockerCon. So Bret, let's talk, you just came off the stage basically. So, thank you for carving out some time for us. Talk to us about your session. What did you talk about? What was some of the interaction with the attendees? >> Well the focus is on Docker Swarm and I'm a assist admin at heart so I focus on ops more than developer but I spend my life helping developers get their stuff into production. And so, that talk centers around the challenges of going in and doing real work that's for a business with containers and how do you get what seems like an incredible amount of new stuff into production all at the same time on a container ecosystem. So, kind of helping them build the tools they need, and what we call a stack, a stack of tools, that ultimately create a full production solution. >> What were some of the commentary you heard from attendees in terms of... Were these mostly community members, were there users of container technology, what was sort of the dynamic like? >> Well you have, there's all sorts of dynamics, right? I mean you have startups, I think I took a survey in the room because it was packed and like 20% of the people in the room about were a solo DevOps admin. So they were the only person responsible for their infrastructure and their needs are way different than a team that has 20 or 30 people all serving that responsibility. So, the talk was a little bit about how do they handle their job and do this stuff. You know, all this latest technology without being overwhelmed and, then, how does it grow in complexity to a larger team and how do they sustain that. So, yeah. >> Bret, it's nice that the technology is mature enough now that people are in production, but what are some of the barriers that people hit when they try to go into production the first time? >> Yeah, great question. I think the biggest barrier is trying to do too much new at the same time. And, I don't know why we keep relearning this lesson in IT, right? We've had that problem for decades of projects being over cost, over budget, over timed, and I think with so much exciting new stuff in containers it's susceptible to that level of, we need all these new things, but you actually don't, right? You can actually get by with very small amounts of change, incrementally. So, we try to teach that pattern of growing over time, and, yeah. >> You mentioned like the one person team versus the multi-person team kind of DevOps organization. Does that same problem of boiling the ocean, do you see that in both groups? >> Yeah, I mean you have fundamentally the same needs, the same problem that you have to solve, but different levels of complexity is really all it has to do with and different levels of budget, obviously, right? So, usually the solo admin doesn't have the million dollar budget for all the tools and bells and whistles, so they might have to do more on their own, but, then, they also have less time so it's a tough row to hoe, you know, to deal with, because you've got those two different fundamental problems of time and money and people are using the most expensive thing. So, no matter what the tool is you're trying to buy, it's usually your time that's the most valuable thing. So how do we get more of our time back? And that's really what containers were all about originally was just getting more of our time back out of it and so we can put back into the business instead of focusing on the tech itself. >> Nirmal, your talk tomorrow is on empathy. >> Yes. >> Very provocative, dig into that for us. >> Sure, so it was actually inspired by a conversation I had with John a couple years ago on Geek Whisperers podcast and he asked the folks on that show, yourself included, asked if there was an event in my past that I kind of regret or taught me a lot. And it was about basically neglecting someone on my team and just kind of shoving them away. And, that moment was a big change in how I felt about the IT industry. And, what I had done was pushed someone who probably needed that help and built up a lot of courage to talk to me and I kind of just dismissed him too quickly. And, from there, I was thinking more and more about game theory and behavioral economics and seeing a lot of our clients and organizations struggle to go through a digital transformation, a DevOps transformation, a cultural transformation. So, to me, culture is kind of the core of what's happening in the industry. And so, the idea of my talk is a little bit of behavioral economics, a little bit of game theory, to kind of set the stage for where your IT organization is probably kind of is right now and how to use empathy to get your organization to that DevOps and to a more efficient place and resolve those conflicts that happen inherently. And, somehow tie that all together with Docker. So, that's kind of what my talk is all about. >> Nice, I mean what's interesting to me, Lisa, is that we do Cubes and there are many Cubes actually all across the country during conference season, right? And we talk to CEOs and VPs of very large companies and even today, at DockerCon, the word 'culture' and the talking about culture and process and people has come up every single interview. So, it's not just from the techies up that this conversation is going... this DevOps and empathy conversation is going on, it seems to be from the top down as well. Everyone seems to recognize that, if you really are going to get this productivity gain, it's not just about the tech, you gotta have culture. >> Absolutely, a successful transformation of an organization is both grassroots and top down. Can't have it without either. And, I think we inherently want to have a... Like, we want to take a pill to solve that problem and there's lots of pills: Docker or cloud or CICD or something. But, those tools are the foundational safety net for a cultural transformation, that's all that it is. So, if you're implementing Docker or Jenkins or some CICD pipeline or automation, that's a safety blanket for providing trust in an organization to allow that change in the culture to happen. But, you still need that cultural change. Just adopting Docker isn't going to make you automatically a more effective organization. Sorry, but it's just one piece and it's an important piece but you have to have that top down understanding of where you are now as an organization and where you want to be in the future. And understanding that this kind of legacy, siloed team mindset is no longer how you can achieve that. >> You talked about trust earlier from a thematic perspective as something that comes up. You know we were at SAP Sapphire last week and trust came up a lot as really paramount. And that was in the context of a vendor/customer relationship. But, to your point, it's imperative that it's actually coming from within organizations. We talk a lot about, well stuff today: multi-cloud--multi-cloud, silos-- but, there's also silos with people and without that cultural shift and probably that empathy, how successful, how big of an impact can a technology make? Are you talking with folks that are at the executive level as well as the developer level in terms of how they each have a stake and need to contribute to this empathy? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the talk I'm doing is basically the ammunition a lower level person would need to go up to management and say, hey, you know this is where the organization is, this is what the IT department kind of looks like, these are the conflicts, and we have to change in order to succeed. And a lot of folks don't. They see the technology changes that they need. You know, adopting the new javascript framework or the new UX pattern. But, they might not have the ammunition to understand the business strategy, the organizational issues. But, they still need that evidence to actually convince a CTO or a CEO or a COO for the need to change. So, I've talked to both groups. From the C-level side, I think it comes from the inherent speed of the industry, the competitive landscape, those are all the pressures that they see and the disruptions that they are tackling. Maybe it's incumbent disruption or new startups that they may have to compete with in the future. The need for constant innovation is kind of the driver. And, IT is kind of where all that is, these days. >> That's great. Building on the concept of trust and this morning at the keynote, Matt Mckesson where they talked about trusting Docker, trusting Docker the company, trusting Docker the technology. Almost the very first words out of Steve Singh's mouth this morning were about community. And, I think community is one of the big reasons people do trust Docker and one of the things that brings them along. You guys are both Docker captains, part of a program of advocacy, community programs. I don't know, Bret, can you tell us a little bit about the program and what's involved in it? >> Yeah, sure. So, it's been around over two years now and it actually spawned out of Docker's pre-existing programs were focusing on speakers and bloggers and supporting them as well as community leaders that run meetups. And they kind of figured out that a key set of people were kind of doing two or three of those things all at once. And so, they were sort of deciding how do we make like super-groups of these people and they came up with the term Docker captain It really just means you know something about Docker, you share it constantly, something about a Docker toolset, something about the container tools. And that you're sort of... And you don't work for Docker. You're a community person that is, maybe you're working for someone that is a partner of Docker or maybe you're just a meetup volunteer that also blogs a lot about patterns and practices of Docker or new Docker features. And so, they kind of use the engineering teams at Docker to kind of pick through people on the internet and the people they see in the community that are sort of rising out of all the noise out there. And they ask them to be a part of the program and then, of course, we get nice jackets and lots of training. And, it's really just a great group of people, we're about 70 people now around the world. >> And yeah, this is global as well, right? >> Oh yeah, yep. It's one of my favorite aspects is the international aspect. I work for Booz Allen which is a more US government focused and I don't get to interact with the global community much. But, through the Docker captain program got friendships and connections almost on every continent and a lot of locations. I just saw a post of a Docker meetup in like, I think it was like Tunisia. Very, very out there kind of places. There was a Cuban one, recently, in Havana. The best connections to a global community that I've ever seen. I think one of the biggest drivers is the rapid adoption and kind of industry trend of containerization and the Docker brand and what it is basically gave rise to a ton of folks just beginners, just wanting to know what it's all about. And, we've been identified as folks that are approachable and have kind of a mandate to be people that can help answer those initial questions, help align folks that have questions with the right resources, and also just make it like a soft, warm, fuzzy kind of introduction to the community. And engage on all kinds of levels, advanced to beginner levels. >> It was interesting, again, this morning, I think about half the people raised their hands to the question, "is it their first year?" So, it still seems like the Docker, the inbound people interested in Docker is still growing and millions of developers all over the world, right? I don't know, Bret, you have a course, Docker Mastery, you also do meetups, and so I'm curious like what is the common pathway or drivers for new folks coming in, that you see and talk with? >> Yeah, what's the pathways? >> Yeah, the pathway, what's driving them? What are they trying to do? Again, are they these solo folks? >> Yeah, it's sort of a little bit of everything. We're very lucky in the course. We actually just crossed 55,000 students worldwide, 161 countries on a course that is only a year old. So, it kind of speaks to the volume of people around the world that really want to learn containers and all the tools around them. I think that the common theme there is I think we had the early adopters, right, and that was the first three or four years of Docker was people that were Silicon Valley, startups, people who were already on the bleeding edge of technology, whether it was hobbyist or enterprise. It was all people, but it was sort of the Linux people. Now, what we're getting is the true enterprise admins and developers, right. And that means, Microsoft, IBM mainframes, .Net, Java, you're getting all of these sort of traditional enterprise technologies but they all have the same passion, they're just coming in a few years later. So, what's funny is, you're meetups don't really change. They're just growing. Like what you see worldwide, the trend is we're still on the up-climb of all the groups, we have over 200 meetups worldwide now that meet once a month about Docker. It's just a crazy time right now. Everything's growing and it's like you wonder if it's ever going to stop, right How big are we gonna get, gonna take over the world with containers? >> Yeah, about 60% or more of all our meetups are completely new to Docker. And, it ranges from, you know, my boss told me about it so I gotta learn it or I found it and I want to convince other people in my organization to use it so I need to learn it more so I can make that case or, it's immediately solving a problem but I don't know how to take it to the next level, don't know where it's going, all that. It's a lot of new people. >> I get students a lot, college students that want to be more aggressive when they get in the marketplace and they hear the word 'DevOps' a lot and they think DevOps is a thing I need to learn in order to get a job. They don't really know what that is. And, of course, we don't even. At this point, it's so watered down, I don't know if anyone really knows what it is. But eventually, they search that and they come up with sort of key terms and I think one of those the come up right away is Docker. And they don't know what that is. But, I get asked the question a lot, If I go to this workshop or if I go the meetup or whatever, can I put that on my resume so I can get my first job out of school? They're always looking for something else beyond their schooling to make them a better first resume. So, it's cool to see even the people just stepping into the job market getting their feet wet with Docker even when they don't even know why they need it. >> It sounds like a symbiotic thought leadership community that you guys are part of and it sounds like the momentum we heard this morning in the general session is really carried out through the Docker captains and the communities. So, Nirmal, Bret, thanks so much for stopping by bringing your snazzy sweatshirts and sharing what you guys are doing as Docker captains. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching The Cube. I'm Lisa Martin with John Troyer. We're live at DockerCon 2018. Stick around, John and I will be right back with our next guest.

>>Hey, welcome to the live panel. My name is Brett. I am your host, and indeed we are live. In fact, if you're curious about that, if you don't believe us, um, let's just show a little bit of the browser real quick to see. Yup. There you go. We're live. So, all right. So how this is going to work is I'm going to bring in some guests and, uh, in one second, and we're going to basically take your questions on the topic designer of the day, that continuous integration testing. Uh, thank you so much to my guests welcoming into the panel. I've got Carlos, Nico and Mandy. Hello everyone. >>Hello? All right, >>Let's go. Let's go around the room and all pretend we don't know each other and that the internet didn't read below the video who we are. Uh, hi, my name is Brett. I am a Docker captain, which means I'm supposed to know something about Docker. I'm coming from Virginia Beach. I'm streaming here from Virginia Beach, Virginia, and, uh, I make videos on the internet and courses on you to me, Carlos. Hey, >>Hey, what's up? I'm Carlos Nunez. I am a solutions architect, VMware. I do solution things with computers. It's fun. I live in Dallas when I'm moving to Houston in a month, which is where I'm currently streaming. I've been all over the Northeast this whole week. So, um, it's been fun and I'm excited to meet with all of you and talk about CIA and Docker. Sure. >>Yeah. Hey everyone. Uh, Nico, Khobar here. I'm a solution engineer at HashiCorp. Uh, I am streaming to you from, uh, the beautiful Austin, Texas. Uh, ignore, ignore the golden gate bridge here. This is from my old apartment in San Francisco. Uh, just, uh, you know, keeping that, to remember all the good days, um, that that lived at. But, uh, anyway, I work at Patrick Corp and I work on all things, automation, um, and cloud and dev ops. Um, and I'm excited to be here and Mandy, >>Hi. Yeah, Mandy Hubbard. I am streaming from Austin, Texas. I am, uh, currently a DX engineer at ship engine. Um, I've worked in QA and that's kind of where I got my, uh, my Docker experience and, um, uh, moving into DX to try and help developers better understand and use our products and be an advocate for them. >>Nice. Well, thank you all for joining me. Uh, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here. And so for those of you in chat, the reason we're doing this live, because it's always harder to do things live. The reason we're here is to answer a question. So we didn't come with a bunch of slides and demos or anything like that. We're here to talk amongst ourselves about ideas and really here for you. So we've, we obviously, this is about easy CII, so we're, we're going to try to keep the conversation around testing and continuous integration and all the things that that entails with containers. But we may, we may go down rabbit holes. We may go veer off and start talking about other things, and that's totally fine if it's in the realm of dev ops and containers and developer and ops workflows, like, Hey, it's, it's kinda game. >>And, uh, these people have a wide variety of expertise. They haven't done just testing, right? We, we live in a world where you all kind of have to wear many hats. So feel free to, um, ask what you think is on the top of your mind. And we'll do our best to answer. It may, might not be the best answer or the correct answer, but we're going to do our best. Um, well, let's get it start off. Uh, let's, let's get a couple of topics to start off with. Uh, th the, the easy CGI was my, one of my three ideas. Cause he's the, one of the things that I'm most excited about is the innovation we're seeing around easier testing, faster testing, automated testing, uh, because as much as we've all been doing this stuff for, you know, 15 years, since 20 years since the sort of Jenkins early days, um, it it's, it seems like it's still really hard and it's still a lot of work. >>So, um, let's go around the room real quick, and everybody can just kind of talk for a minute about like your experience with testing and maybe some of your pain points, like what you don't like about our testing world. Um, and we can talk about some pains, cause I think that will lead us to kind of talk about what, what are the things we're seeing now that might be better, uh, ideas about how to do this. I know for me, uh, testing, obviously there's the code part, but just getting it automated, but mostly getting it in the hands of developers so that they can control their own testing. And don't have to go talk to a person to run that test again, or the mysterious Jenkins platform somewhere. I keep mentioning Jenkins cause it's, it is still the dominant player out there. Um, so for me, I'm, I'm, I, I don't like it when I'm walking into a room and there's, there's only one or two people that know how the testing works or know how to make the new tests go into the testing platform and stuff like that. So I'm always trying to free those things so that any of the developers are enabled and empowered to do that stuff. So someone else, Carlos, anybody, um, >>Oh, I have a lot of opinions on that. Having been a QA engineer for most of my career. Um, the shift that we're saying is everyone is dev ops and everyone is QA. Th the issue I see is no one asked developers if they wanted to be QA. Um, and so being the former QA on the team, when there's a problem, even though I'm a developer and we're all running QA, they always tend to come to the one of the former QA engineers. And they're not really owning that responsibility and, um, and digging in. So that's kind of what I'm saying is that we're all expected to test now. And some people, well, some people don't know how it's, uh, for me it was kind of an intuitive skill. It just kind of fit with my personality, but not knowing what to look for, not knowing what to automate, not even understanding how your API end points are used by your front end to know what to test when a change is made. It's really overwhelming for developers. And, um, we're going to need to streamline that and, and hold their hands a little bit until they get their feet wet with also being QA. >>Right. Right. So, um, uh, Carlos, >>Yeah, uh, testing is like, Tesla is one of my favorite subjects to talk about when I'm baring with developers. And a lot of it is because of what Mandy said, right? Like a lot of developers now who used to write a test and say, Hey, QA, go. Um, I wrote my unit tests. Now write the rest of the test. Essentially. Now developers are expected to be able to understand how testing, uh, testing methodologies work, um, in their local environments, right? Like they're supposed to understand how to write an integration tasks federate into and tasks, a component test. And of course, how to write unit tests that aren't just, you know, assert true is true, right? Like more comprehensive, more comprehensive, um, more high touch unit tests, which include things like mocking and stubbing and spine and all that stuff. And, you know, it's not so much getting those tests. Well, I've had a lot of challenges with developers getting those tests to run in Docker because of usually because of dependency hell, but, um, getting developers to understand how to write tests that matter and mean something. Um, it's, it's, it can be difficult, but it's also where I find a lot of the enjoyment of my work comes into play. So yeah. I mean, that's the difficulty I've seen around testing. Um, big subject though. Lots to talk about there. >>Yeah. We've got, we've already got so many questions coming in. You already got an hour's worth of stuff. So, uh, Nico 81st thoughts on that? >>Yeah, I think I definitely agree with, with other folks here on the panel, I think from a, um, the shift from a skillset perspective that's needed to adopt the new technologies, but I think from even from, uh, aside from the organizational, um, and kind of key responsibilities that, that the new developers have to kinda adapt to and, and kind of inherit now, um, there's also from a technical perspective as there's, you know, um, more developers are owning the full stack, including the infrastructure piece. So that adds a lot more to the plate in Tim's oaf, also testing that component that they were not even, uh, responsible for before. Um, and, um, also the second challenge that, you know, I'm seeing is that on, you know, the long list of added, um, uh, tooling and, you know, there's new tool every other day. Um, and, um, that kind of requires more customization to the testing, uh, that each individual team, um, any individual developer Y by extension has to learn. Uh, so the customization, uh, as well as the, kind of the scope that had, uh, you know, now in conferences, the infrastructure piece, um, uh, both of act to the, to the challenges that we're seeing right now for, um, for CGI and overall testing, um, uh, the developers are saying, uh, in, in the market today. >>Yeah. We've got a lot of questions, um, about all the, all the different parts of this. So, uh, let me just go straight to them. Cause that's why we're here is for the people, uh, a lot of people asking about your favorite tools and in one of this is one of the challenges with integration, right? Is, um, there is no, there are dominant players, but there, there is such a variety. I mean, every one of my customers seems like they're using a different workflow and a different set of tools. So, and Hey, we're all here to just talk about what we're, what we're using, uh, you know, whether your favorite tools. So like a lot of the repeated questions are, what are your favorite tools? Like if you could create it from scratch, uh, what would you use? Pierre's asking, you know, GitHub actions sounds like they're a fan of GitHub actions, uh, w you know, mentioning, pushing the ECR and Docker hub and, uh, using vs code pipeline, I guess there may be talking about Azure pipelines. Um, what, what's your preferred way? So, does anyone have any, uh, thoughts on that anyone want to throw out there? Their preferred pipeline of tooling? >>Well, I have to throw out mine. I might as Jenkins, um, like kind of a honorary cloud be at this point, having spoken a couple of times there, um, all of the plugins just make the functionality. I don't love the UI, but I love that it's been around so long. It has so much community support, and there are so many plugins so that if you want to do something, you don't have to write the code it's already been tested. Um, unfortunately I haven't been able to use Jenkins in, uh, since I joined ship engine, we, most of our, um, our, our monolithic core application is, is team city. It's a dotnet application and TeamCity plays really well with.net. Um, didn't love it, uh, Ms. Jenkins. And I'm just, we're just starting some new initiatives that are using GitHub actions, and I'm really excited to learn, to learn those. I think they have a lot of the same functionality that you're looking for, but, um, much more simplified in is right there and get hubs. So, um, the integration is a lot more seamless, but I do have to go on record that my favorite CICT tools Jenkins. >>All right. You heard it here first people. All right. Anyone else? You're muted? I'm muted. Carlin says muted. Oh, Carla says, guest has muted themselves to Carlos. You got to unmute. >>Yes. I did mute myself because I was typing a lot, trying to, you know, try to answer stuff in the chat. And there's a lot of really dark stuff in there. That's okay. Two more times today. So yeah, it's fine. Yeah, no problem. So totally. And it's the best way to start a play more. So I'm just going to go ahead and light it up. Um, for enterprise environments, I actually am a huge fan of Jenkins. Um, it's a tool that people really understand. Um, it has stood the test of time, right? I mean, people were using Hudson, but 15 years ago, maybe longer. And, you know, the way it works, hasn't really changed very much. I mean, Jenkins X is a little different, but, um, the UI and the way it works internally is pretty familiar to a lot of enterprise environments, which is great. >>And also in me, the plugin ecosystem is amazing. There's so many plugins for everything, and you can make your own if you know, Java groovy. I'm sure there's a perfect Kotlin in there, but I haven't tried myself, but it's really great. It's also really easy to write, um, CIS code, which is something I'm a big fan of. So Jenkins files have been, have worked really well for me. I, I know that I can get a little bit more complex as you start to build your own models and such, but, you know, for enterprise enterprise CIO CD, if you want, especially if you want to roll your own or own it yourself, um, Jenkins is the bellwether and for very good reason now for my personal projects. And I see a lot on the chat here, I think y'all, y'all been agreed with me get hub actions 100%, my favorite tool right now. >>Um, I love GitHub actions. It's, it's customizable, it's modular. There's a lot of plugins already. I started using getting that back maybe a week after when GA and there was no documentation or anything. And I still, it was still my favorite CIA tool even then. Um, and you know, the API is really great. There's a lot to love about GitHub actions and, um, and I, and I use it as much as I can from my personal project. So I still have a soft spot for Travis CAI. Um, you know, they got acquired and they're a little different now trying to see, I, I can't, I can't let it go. I just love it. But, um, yeah, I mean, when it comes to Seattle, those are my tools. So light me up in the comments I will respond. Yeah. >>I mean, I, I feel with you on the Travis, the, I think, cause I think that was my first time experiencing, you know, early days get hub open source and like a free CIA tool that I could describe. I think it was the ammo back then. I don't actually remember, but yeah, it was kind of an exciting time from my experience. There was like, oh, this is, this is just there as a service. And I could just use it. It doesn't, it's like get hub it's free from my open source stuff. And so it does have a soft spot in my heart too. So yeah. >>All right. We've got questions around, um, cam, so I'm going to ask some questions. We don't have to have these answers because sometimes they're going to be specific, but I want to call them out because people in chat may have missed that question. And there's probably, you know, that we have smart people in chat too. So there's probably someone that knows the answer to these things. If, if it's not us, um, they're asking about building Docker images in Kubernetes, which to me is always a sore spot because it's Kubernetes does not build images by default. It's not meant for that out of the gate. And, uh, what is the best way to do this without having to use privileged containers, which privileged containers just implying that yeah, you, you, it probably has more privileges than by default as a container in Kubernetes. And that is a hard thing because, uh, I don't, I think Docker doesn't lie to do that out of the gate. So I don't know if anyone has an immediate answer to that. That's a pretty technical one, but if you, if you know the answer to that in chat, call it out. >>Um, >>I had done this, uh, but I'm pretty sure I had to use a privileged, um, container and install the Docker Damon on the Kubernetes cluster. And I CA I can't give you a better solution. Um, I've done the same. So, >>Yeah, uh, Chavonne asks, um, back to the Jenkins thing, what's the easiest way to integrate Docker into a Jenkins CICB pipeline. And that's one of the challenges I find with Jenkins because I don't claim to be the expert on Jenkins. Is there are so many plugins because of this, of this such a huge ecosystem. Um, when you go searching for Docker, there's a lot that comes back, right. So I, I don't actually have a preferred way because every team I find uses it differently. Um, I don't know, is there a, do you know if there's a Jenkins preferred, a default plugin? I don't even know for Docker. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Sorry for Docker. And jacon sorry, Docker plugins for Jenkins. Uh, as someone's asking like the preferred or easy way to do that. Um, and I don't, I don't know the back into Jenkins that well, so, >>Well, th the new, the new way that they're doing, uh, Docker builds with the pipeline, which is more declarative versus the groovy. It's really simple, and their documentation is really good. They, um, they make it really easy to say, run this in this image. So you can pull down, you know, public images and add your own layers. Um, so I don't know the name of that plugin, uh, but I can certainly take a minute after this session and going and get that. Um, but if you really are overwhelmed by the plugins, you can just write your, you know, your shell command in Jenkins. You could just by, you know, doing everything in bash, calling the Docker, um, Damon directly, and then getting it working just to see that end to end, and then start browsing for plugins to see if you even want to use those. >>The plugins will allow more integration from end to end. Some of the things that you input might be available later on in the process for having to manage that yourself. But, you know, you don't have to use any of the plugins. You can literally just, you know, do a block where you write your shell command and get it working, and then decide if, for plugins for you. Um, I think it's always under important to understand what is going on under the hood before you, before you adopt the magic of a plugin, because, um, once you have a problem, if you're, if it's all a lockbox to you, it's going to be more difficult to troubleshoot. It's kind of like learning, get command line versus like get cracking or something. Once, once you get in a bind, if you don't understand the underlying steps, it's really hard to get yourself out of a bind, versus if you understand what the plugin or the app is doing, then, um, you can get out of situations a lot easier. That's a good place. That's, that's where I'd start. >>Yeah. Thank you. Um, Camden asks better to build test environment images, every commit in CII. So this is like one of those opinions of we're all gonna have some different, uh, or build on build images on every commit, leveraging the cash, or build them once outside the test pile pipeline. Um, what say you people? >>Uh, well, I I've seen both and generally speaking, my preference is, um, I guess the ant, the it's a consultant answer, right? I think it depends on what you're trying to do, right. So if you have a lot of small changes that are being made and you're creating images for each of those commits, you're going to have a lot of images in your, in your registry, right? And on top of that, if you're building those images, uh, through CAI frequently, if you're using Docker hub or something like that, you might run into rate limiting issues because of Docker's new rate, limiting, uh, rate limits that they put in place. Um, but that might be beneficial if the, if being able to roll back between those small changes while you're testing is important to you. Uh, however, if all you care about is being able to use Docker images, um, or being able to correlate versions to your Docker images, or if you're the type of team that doesn't even use him, uh, does he even use, uh, virgins in your image tags? Then I would think that that might be a little, much you might want to just have in your CIO. You might want to have a stage that builds your Docker images and Docker image and pushes it into your registry, being done first particular branches instead of having to be done on every commit regardless of branch. But again, it really depends on the team. It really depends on what you're building. It really depends on your workflow. It can depend on a number of things like a curse sometimes too. Yeah. Yeah. >>Once had two points here, you know, I've seen, you know, the pattern has been at every, with every, uh, uh, commit, assuming that you have the right set of tests that would kind of, uh, you would benefit from actually seeing, um, the, the, the, the testing workflow go through and can detect any issue within, within the build or whatever you're trying to test against. But if you're just a building without the appropriate set of tests, then you're just basically consuming almond, adding time, as well as all the, the image, uh, stories associated with it without treaty reaping the benefit of, of, of this pattern. Uh, and the second point is, again, I think if you're, if you're going to end up doing a per commit, uh, definitely recommend having some type of, uh, uh, image purging, um, uh, and, and, and garbage collection process to ensure that you're not just wasting, um, all the stories needed and also, um, uh, optimizing your, your bill process, because that will end up being the most time-consuming, um, um, you know, within, within your pipeline. So this is my 2 cents on this. >>Yeah, that's good stuff. I mean, those are both of those are conversations that could lead us into the rabbit hole for the rest of the day on storage management, uh, you know, CP CPU minutes for, uh, you know, your build stuff. I mean, if you're in any size team, more than one or two people, you immediately run into headaches with cost of CIA, because we have now the problem of tools, right? We have so many tools. We can have the CIS system burning CPU cycles all day, every day, if we really wanted to. And so you re very quickly, I think, especially if you're on every commit on every branch, like that gets you into a world of cost mitigation, and you probably are going to have to settle somewhere in the middle on, uh, between the budget, people that are saying you're spending way too much money on the CII platform, uh, because of all these CPU cycles, and then the developers who would love to have everything now, you know, as fast as possible and the biggest, biggest CPU's, and the biggest servers, and have the bills, because the bills can never go fast enough, right. >>There's no end to optimizing your build workflow. Um, we have another question on that. This is another topic that we'll all probably have different takes on is, uh, basically, uh, version tags, right? So on images, we, we have a very established workflow in get for how we make commits. We have commit shots. We have, uh, you know, we know get tags and there's all these things there. And then we go into images and it's just this whole new world that's opened up. Like there's no real consensus. Um, so what, what are your thoughts on the strategy for teams in their image tag? Again, another, another culture thing. Um, commander, >>I mean, I'm a fan of silver when we have no other option. Um, it's just clean and I like the timestamp, you know, exactly when it was built. Um, I don't really see any reason to use another, uh, there's just normal, incremental, um, you know, numbering, but I love the fact that you can pull any tag and know exactly when it was created. So I'm a big fan of bar, if you can make that work for your organization. >>Yep. People are mentioned that in chat, >>So I like as well. Uh, I'm a big fan of it. I think it's easy to be able to just be as easy to be able to signify what a major changes versus a minor change versus just a hot fix or, you know, some or some kind of a bad fix. The problem that I've found with having teams adopt San Bernardo becomes answering these questions and being able to really define what is a major change, what is a minor change? What is a patch, right? And this becomes a bit of an overhead or not so much of an overhead, but, uh, uh, uh, a large concern for teams who have never done versioning before, or they never been responsible for their own versioning. Um, in fact, you know, I'm running into that right now, uh, with, with a client that I'm working with, where a lot, I'm working with a lot of teams, helping them move their applications from a legacy production environment into a new one. >>And in doing so, uh, versioning comes up because Docker images, uh, have tags and usually the tax correlate to versions, but some teams over there, some teams that I'm working with are only maintaining a script and others are maintaining a fully fledged JAK, three tier application, you know, with lots of dependencies. So telling the script, telling the team that maintains a script, Hey, you know, you should use somber and you should start thinking about, you know, what's major, what's my number what's patch. That might be a lot for them. And for someone or a team like that, I might just suggest using commit shots as your versions until you figure that out, or maybe using, um, dates as your version, but for the more for the team, with the larger application, they probably already know the answers to those questions. In which case they're either already using Sember or they, um, or they may be using some other version of the strategy and might be in December, might suit them better. So, um, you're going to hear me say, it depends a lot, and I'm just going to say here, it depends. Cause it really does. Carlos. >>I think you hit on something interesting beyond just how to version, but, um, when to consider it a major release and who makes those decisions, and if you leave it to engineers to version, you're kind of pushing business decisions down the pipe. Um, I think when it's a minor or a major should be a business decision and someone else needs to make that call someone closer to the business should be making that call as to when we want to call it major. >>That's a really good point. And I add some, I actually agree. Um, I absolutely agree with that. And again, it really depends on the team that on the team and the scope of it, it depends on the scope that they're maintaining, right? And so it's a business application. Of course, you're going to have a product manager and you're going to have, you're going to have a product manager who's going to want to make that call because that version is going to be out in marketing. People are going to use it. They're going to refer to and support calls. They're going to need to make those decisions. Sember again, works really, really well for that. Um, but for a team that's maintaining the scripts, you know, I don't know, having them say, okay, you must tell me what a major version is. It's >>A lot, but >>If they want it to use some birds great too, which is why I think going back to what you originally said, Sember in the absence of other options. I think that's a good strategy. >>Yeah. There's a, there's a, um, catching up on chat. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to catch up, but there's a lot of people commenting on their favorite CII systems and it's, and it, it just goes to show for the, the testing and deployment community. Like how many tools there are out there, how many tools there are to support the tools that you're using. Like, uh, it can be a crazy wilderness. And I think that's, that's part of the art of it, uh, is that these things are allowing us to build our workflows to the team's culture. Um, and, uh, but I do think that, you know, getting into like maybe what we hope to be at what's next is I do hope that we get to, to try to figure out some of these harder problems of consistency. Uh, one of the things that led me to Docker at the beginning to begin with was the fact that it wa it created a consistent packaging solution for me to get my code, you know, off of, off of my site of my local system, really, and into the server. >>And that whole workflow would at least the thing that I was making at each step was going to be the same thing used. Right. And that, that was huge. Uh, it was also, it also took us a long time to get there. Right. We all had to, like Docker was one of those ones that decade kind of ideas of let's solidify the, enter, get the consensus of the community around this idea. And we, and it's not perfect. Uh, you know, the Docker Docker file is not the most perfect way to describe how to make your app, but it is there and we're all using it. And now I'm looking for that next piece, right. Then hopefully the next step in that, um, that where we can all arrive at a consensus so that once you hop teams, you know, okay. We all knew Docker. We now, now we're all starting to get to know the manifests, but then there's this big gap in the middle where it's like, it might be one of a dozen things. Um, you know, so >>Yeah, yeah. To that, to that, Brett, um, you know, uh, just maybe more of a shameless plug here and wanting to kind of talk about one of the things that I'm on. So excited, but I work, I work at Tasha Corp. I don't know anyone, or I don't know if many people have heard of, um, you know, we tend to focus a lot on workflows versus technologies, right. Because, you know, as you can see, even just looking at the chat, there's, you know, ton of opinions on the different tooling, right. And, uh, imagine having, you know, I'm working with clients that have 10,000 developers. So imagine taking the folks in the chat and being partnered with one organization or one company and having to make decisions on how to build software. Um, but there's no way you can conversion one or, or one way or one tool, uh, and that's where we're facing in the industry. >>So one of the things that, uh, I'm pretty excited about, and I don't know if it's getting as much traction as you know, we've been focused on it. This is way point, which is a project, an open source project. I believe we got at least, uh, last year, um, which is, it's more of, uh, it's, it is aim to address that really, uh, uh, Brad set on, you know, to come to tool to, uh, make it extremely easy and simple. And, you know, to describe how you want to build, uh, deploy or release your application, uh, in, in a consistent way, regardless of the tools. So similar to how you can think of Terraform and having that pluggability to say Terraform apply or plan against any cloud infrastructure, uh, without really having to know exactly the details of how to do it, uh, this is what wave one is doing. Um, and it can be applied with, you know, for the CIA, uh, framework. So, you know, task plugability into, uh, you know, circle CEI tests to Docker helm, uh, Kubernetes. So that's the, you know, it's, it's a hard problem to solve, but, um, I'm hopeful that that's the path that we're, you know, we'll, we'll eventually get to. So, um, hope, you know, you can, you can, uh, see some of the, you know, information, data on it, on, on HashiCorp site, but I mean, I'm personally excited about it. >>Yeah. Uh I'm to gonna have to check that out. And, um, I told you on my live show, man, we'll talk about it, but talk about it for a whole hour. Uh, so there's another question here around, uh, this, this is actually a little bit more detailed, but it is one that I think a lot of people deal with and I deal with a lot too, is essentially the question is from Cameron, uh, D essentially, do you use compose in your CIO or not Docker compose? Uh, because yes I do. Yeah. Cause it, it, it, it solves so many problems am and not every CGI can, I don't know, there's some problems with a CIO is trying to do it for me. So there are pros and cons and I feel like I'm still on the fence about it because I use it all the time, but also it's not perfect. It's not always meant for CIA. And CIA sometimes tries to do things for you, like starting things up before you start other parts and having that whole order, uh, ordering problem of things anyway. W thoughts and when have thoughts. >>Yes. I love compose. It's one of my favorite tools of all time. Um, and the reason why it's, because what I often find I'm working with teams trying to actually let me walk that back, because Jack on the chat asked a really interesting question about what, what, what the hardest thing about CIS for a lot of teams. And in my experience, the hardest thing is getting teams to build an app that is the same app as what's built in production. A lot of CGI does things that are totally different than what you would do in your local, in your local dev. And as a result of that, you get, you got this application that either doesn't work locally, or it does work, but it's a completely different animal than what you would get in production. Right? So what I've found in trying to get teams to bridge that gap by basically taking their CGI, shifting the CII left, I hate the shift left turn, but I'll use it. >>I'm shifting the CIO left to your local development is trying to say, okay, how do we build an app? How do we, how do we build mot dependencies of that app so that we can build so that we can test our app? How do we run tests, right? How do we build, how do we get test data? And what I found is that trying to get teams to do all this in Docker, which is normally a first for a lot of teams that I'm working with, trying to get them all to do all of this. And Docker means you're running Docker, build a lot running Docker, run a lot. You're running Docker, RM a lot. You ran a lot of Docker, disparate Docker commands. And then on top of that, trying to bridge all of those containers together into a single network can be challenging without compose. >>So I like using a, to be able to really easily categorize and compartmentalize a lot of the things that are going to be done in CII, like building a Docker image, running tests, which is you're, you're going to do it in CII anyway. So running tests, building the image, pushing it to the registry. Well, I wouldn't say pushing it to the registry, but doing all the things that you would do in local dev, but in the same network that you might have a mock database or a mock S3 instance or some of something else. Um, so it's just easy to take all those Docker compose commands and move them into your Yammel file using the hub actions or your dankest Bob using Jenkins, or what have you. Right. It's really, it's really portable that way, but it doesn't work for every team. You know, for example, if you're just a team that, you know, going back to my script example, if it's a really simple script that does one thing on a somewhat routine basis, then that might be a lot of overhead. Um, in that case, you know, you can get away with just Docker commands. It's not a big deal, but the way I looked at it is if I'm, if I'm building, if I build something that's similar to a make bile or rate file, or what have you, then I'm probably gonna want to use Docker compose. If I'm working with Docker, that's, that's a philosophy of values, right? >>So I'm also a fan of Docker compose. And, um, you know, to your point, Carlos, the whole, I mean, I'm also a fan of shifting CEI lift and testing lift, but if you put all that logic in your CTI, um, it changes the L the local development experience from the CGI experience. Versus if you put everything in a compose file so that what you build locally is the same as what you build in CGI. Um, you're going to have a better experience because you're going to be testing something more, that's closer to what you're going to be releasing. And it's also very easy to look at a compose file and kind of, um, understand what the dependencies are and what's happening is very readable. And once you move that stuff to CGI, I think a lot of developers, you know, they're going to be intimidated by the CGI, um, whatever the scripting language is, it's going to be something they're going to have to wrap their head around. >>Um, but they're not gonna be able to use it locally. You're going to have to have another local solution. So I love the idea of a composed file use locally, um, especially if he can Mount the local workspace so that they can do real time development and see their changes in the exact same way as it's going to be built and tested in CGI. It gives developers a high level of confidence. And then, you know, you're less likely to have issues because of discrepancies between how it was built in your local test environment versus how it's built in NCI. And so Docker compose really lets you do all of that in a way that makes your solution more portable, portable between local dev and CGI and reduces the number of CGI cycles to get, you know, the test, the test data that you need. So that's why I like it for really, for local dev. >>It'll be interesting. Um, I don't know if you all were able to see the keynote, but there was a, there was a little bit, not a whole lot, but a little bit talk of the Docker, compose V two, which has now built into the Docker command line. And so now we're shifting from the Python built compose, which was a separate package. You could that one of the challenges was getting it into your CA solution because if you don't have PIP and you got down on the binary and the binary wasn't available for every platform and, uh, it was a PI installer. It gets a little nerdy into how that works, but, uh, and the team is now getting, be able to get unified with it. Now that it's in Golang and it's, and it's plugged right into the Docker command line, it hopefully will be easier to distribute, easier to, to use. >>And you won't have to necessarily have dependencies inside of where you're running it because there'll be a statically compiled binary. Um, so I've been playing with that, uh, this year. And so like training myself to do Docker going from Docker dash compose to Docker space, compose. It is a thing I I'm almost to the point of having to write a shell replacement. Yeah. Alias that thing. Um, but, um, I'm excited to see what that's going, cause there's already new features in it. And it, these built kit by default, like there's all these things. And I, I love build kit. We could make a whole session on build kit. Um, in fact there's actually, um, maybe going on right now, or right around this time, there is a session on, uh, from Solomon hikes, the seat, uh, co-founder of Docker, former CTO, uh, on build kit using, uh, using some other tool on top of build kit or whatever. >>So that, that would be interesting for those of you that are not watching that one. Cause you're here, uh, to do a check that one out later. Um, all right. So another good question was caching. So another one, another area where there is no wrong answers probably, and everyone has a different story. So the question is, what are your thoughts on CII build caching? There's often a debate between security. This is from Quentin. Thank you for this great question. There's often a debate between security reproducibility and build speeds. I haven't found a good answer so far. I will just throw my hat in the ring and say that the more times you want to build, like if you're trying to build every commit or every commit, if you're building many times a day, the more caching you need. So like the more times you're building, the more caching you're gonna likely want. And in most cases caching doesn't bite you in the butt, but that could be, yeah, we, can we get the bit about that? So, yeah. Yeah. >>I'm going to quote Carlos again and say, it depends on, on, you know, how you're talking, you know, what you're trying to build and I'm quoting your colors. Um, yeah, it's, it's got, it's gonna depend because, you know, there are some instances where you definitely want to use, you know, depends on the frequency that you're building and how you're building. Um, it's you would want to actually take advantage of cashing functionalities, um, for the build, uh, itself. Um, but if, um, you know, as you mentioned, there could be some instances where you would want to disable, um, any caching because you actually want to either pull a new packages or, um, you know, there could be some security, um, uh, disadvantages related to security aspects that would, you know, you know, using a cache version of, uh, image layer, for example, could be a problem. And you, you know, if you have a fleet of build, uh, engines, you don't have a good grasp of where they're being cashed. We would have to, um, disable caching in that, in that, um, in those instances. So it, it would depend. >>Yeah, it's, it's funny you have that problem on both sides of cashing. Like there are things that, especially in Docker world, they will cash automatically. And, and then, and then you maybe don't realize that some of that caching could be bad. It's, it's actually using old, uh, old assets, old artifacts, and then there's times where you would expect it to cash, that it doesn't cash. And then you have to do something extra to enable that caching, especially when you're dealing with that cluster of, of CIS servers. Right. And the cloud, the whole clustering problem with caching is even more complex, but yeah, >>But that's, that's when, >>Uh, you know, ever since I asked you to start using build kits and able to build kit, you know, between it's it's it's reader of Boston in, in detecting word, you know, where in, in the bill process needs to cash, as well as, uh, the, the, um, you know, the process. I don't think I've seen any other, uh, approach there that comes close to how efficient, uh, that process can become how much time it can actually save. Uh, but again, I think, I think that's, for me that had been my default approach, unless I actually need something that I would intentionally to disable caching for that purpose, but the benefits, at least for me, the benefits of, um, how bill kit actually been processing my bills, um, from the builds as well as, you know, using the cash up until, you know, how it detects the, the difference in, in, in the assets within the Docker file had been, um, you know, uh, pretty, you know, outweigh the disadvantages that it brings in. So it, you know, take it each case by case. And based on that, determine if you want to use it, but definitely recommend those enabling >>In the absence of a reason not to, um, I definitely think that it's a good approach in terms of speed. Um, yeah, I say you cash until you have a good reason not to personally >>Catch by default. There you go. I think you catch by default. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, the trick is, well, one, it's not always enabled by default, especially when you're talking about cross server. So that's a, that's a complexity for your SIS admins, or if you're on the cloud, you know, it's usually just an option. Um, I think it also is this, this veers into a little bit of, uh, the more you cash the in a lot of cases with Docker, like the, from like, if you're from images and checked every single time, if you're not pinning every single thing, if you're not painting your app version, you're at your MPN versions to the exact lock file definition. Like there's a lot of these things where I'm I get, I get sort of, I get very grouchy with teams that sort of let it, just let it all be like, yeah, we'll just build two images and they're totally going to have different dependencies because someone happened to update that thing and after whatever or MPM or, or, and so I get grouchy about that, cause I want to lock it all down, but I also know that that's going to create administrative burden. >>Like the team is now going to have to manage versions in a very much more granular way. Like, do we need to version two? Do we need to care about curl? You know, all that stuff. Um, so that's, that's kind of tricky, but when you get to, when you get to certain version problems, uh, sorry, uh, cashing problems, you, you, you don't want those set those caches to happen because it, if you're from image changes and you're not constantly checking for a new image, and if you're not pinning that V that version, then now you, you don't know whether you're getting the latest version of Davion or whatever. Um, so I think that there's, there's an art form to the more you pen, the less you have, the less, you have to be worried about things changing, but the more you pen, the, uh, all your versions of everything all the way down the stack, the more administrative stuff, because you're gonna have to manually change every one of those. >>So I think it's a balancing act for teams. And as you mature, I to find teams, they tend to pin more until they get to a point of being more comfortable with their testing. So the other side of this argument is if you trust your testing, then you, and you have better testing to me, the less likely to the subtle little differences in versions have to be penned because you can get away with those minor or patch level version changes. If you're thoroughly testing your app, because you're trusting your testing. And this gets us into a whole nother rant, but, uh, yeah, but talking >>About penny versions, if you've got a lot of dependencies isn't that when you would want to use the cash the most and not have to rebuild all those layers. Yeah. >>But if you're not, but if you're not painting to the exact patch version and you are caching, then you're not technically getting the latest versions because it's not checking for all the time. It's a weird, there's a lot of this subtle nuance that people don't realize until it's a problem. And that's part of the, the tricky part of allow this stuff, is it, sometimes the Docker can be almost so much magic out of the box that you, you, you get this all and it all works. And then day two happens and you built it a second time and you've got a new version of open SSL in there and suddenly it doesn't work. Um, so anyway, uh, that was a great question. I've done the question on this, on, uh, from heavy. What do you put, where do you put testing in your pipeline? Like, so testing the code cause there's lots of types of testing, uh, because this pipeline gets longer and longer and Docker building images as part of it. And so he says, um, before staging or after staging, but before production, where do you put it? >>Oh man. Okay. So, um, my, my main thought on this is, and of course this is kind of religious flame bait, so sure. You know, people are going to go into the compensation wrong. Carlos, the boy is how I like to think about it. So pretty much in every stage or every environment that you're going to be deploying your app into, or that your application is going to touch. My idea is that there should be a build of a Docker image that has all your applications coded in, along with its dependencies, there's testing that tests your application, and then there's a deployment that happens into whatever infrastructure there is. Right. So the testing, they can get tricky though. And the type of testing you do, I think depends on the environment that you're in. So if you're, let's say for example, your team and you have, you have a main branch and then you have feature branches that merged into the main branch. >>You don't have like a pre-production branch or anything like that. So in those feature branches, whenever I'm doing CGI that way, I know when I freak, when I cut my poll request, that I'm going to merge into main and everything's going to work in my feature branches, I'm going to want to probably just run unit tests and maybe some component tests, which really, which are just, you know, testing that your app can talk to another component or another part, another dependency, like maybe a database doing tests like that, that don't take a lot of time that are fascinating and right. A lot of would be done at the beach branch level and in my opinion, but when you're going to merge that beach branch into main, as part of a release in that activity, you're going to want to be able to do an integration tasks, to make sure that your app can actually talk to all the other dependencies that it talked to. >>You're going to want to do an end to end test or a smoke test, just to make sure that, you know, someone that actually touches the application, if it's like a website can actually use the website as intended and it meets the business cases and all that, and you might even have testing like performance testing, low performance load testing, or security testing, compliance testing that would want to happen in my opinion, when you're about to go into production with a release, because those are gonna take a long time. Those are very expensive. You're going to have to cut new infrastructure, run those tests, and it can become quite arduous. And you're not going to want to run those all the time. You'll have the resources, uh, builds will be slower. Uh, release will be slower. It will just become a mess. So I would want to save those for when I'm about to go into production. Instead of doing those every time I make a commit or every time I'm merging a feature ranch into a non main branch, that's the way I look at it, but everything does a different, um, there's other philosophies around it. Yeah. >>Well, I don't disagree with your build test deploy. I think if you're going to deploy the code, it needs to be tested. Um, at some level, I mean less the same. You've got, I hate the term smoke tests, cause it gives a false sense of security, but you have some mental minimum minimal amount of tests. And I would expect the developer on the feature branch to add new tests that tested that feature. And that would be part of the PR why those tests would need to pass before you can merge it, merge it to master. So I agree that there are tests that you, you want to run at different stages, but the earlier you can run the test before going to production. Um, the fewer issues you have, the easier it is to troubleshoot it. And I kind of agree with what you said, Carlos, about the longer running tests like performance tests and things like that, waiting to the end. >>The only problem is when you wait until the end to run those performance tests, you kind of end up deploying with whatever performance you have. It's, it's almost just an information gathering. So if you don't run your performance test early on, um, and I don't want to go down a rabbit hole, but performance tests can be really useless if you don't have a goal where it's just information gap, uh, this is, this is the performance. Well, what did you expect it to be? Is it good? Is it bad? They can get really nebulous. So if performance is really important, um, you you're gonna need to come up with some expectations, preferably, you know, set up the business level, like what our SLA is, what our response times and have something to shoot for. And then before you're getting to production. If you have targets, you can test before staging and you can tweak the code before staging and move that performance initiative. Sorry, Carlos, a little to the left. Um, but if you don't have a performance targets, then it's just a check box. So those are my thoughts. I like to test before every deployment. Right? >>Yeah. And you know what, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you brought, I'm glad that you brought up Escalades and performance because, and you know, the definition of performance says to me, because one of the things that I've seen when I work with teams is that oftentimes another team runs a P and L tests and they ended, and the development team doesn't really have too much insight into what's going on there. And usually when I go to the performance team and say, Hey, how do you run your performance test? It's usually just a generic solution for every single application that they support, which may or may not be applicable to the application team that I'm working with specifically. So I think it's a good, I'm not going to dig into it. I'm not going to dig into the rabbit hole SRE, but it is a good bridge into SRE when you start trying to define what does reliability mean, right? >>Because the reason why you test performance, it's test reliability to make sure that when you cut that release, that customers would go to your site or use your application. Aren't going to see regressions in performance and are not going to either go to another website or, you know, lodge in SLA violation or something like that. Um, it does, it does bridge really well with defining reliability and what SRE means. And when you have, when you start talking about that, that's when you started talking about how often do I run? How often do I test my reliability, the reliability of my application, right? Like, do I have nightly tasks in CGI that ensure that my main branch or, you know, some important branch I does not mean is meeting SLA is meeting SLR. So service level objectives, um, or, you know, do I run tasks that ensure that my SLA is being met in production? >>Like whenever, like do I use, do I do things like game days where I test, Hey, if I turn something off or, you know, if I deploy this small broken code to production and like what happens to my performance? What happens to my security and compliance? Um, you can, that you can go really deep into and take creating, um, into creating really robust tests that cover a lot of different domains. But I liked just using build test deploy is the overall answer to that because I find that you're going to have to build your application first. You're going to have to test it out there and build it, and then you're going to want to deploy it after you test it. And that order generally ensures that you're releasing software. That works. >>Right. Right. Um, I was going to ask one last question. Um, it's going to have to be like a sentence answer though, for each one of you. Uh, this is, uh, do you lint? And if you lint, do you lent all the things, if you do, do you fail the linters during your testing? Yes or no? I think it's going to depend on the culture. I really do. Sorry about it. If we >>Have a, you know, a hook, uh, you know, on the get commit, then theoretically the developer can't get code there without running Melinta anyway, >>So, right, right. True. Anyone else? Anyone thoughts on that? Linting >>Nice. I saw an additional question online thing. And in the chat, if you would introduce it in a multi-stage build, um, you know, I was wondering also what others think about that, like typically I've seen, you know, with multi-stage it's the most common use case is just to produce the final, like to minimize the, the, the, the, the, the image size and produce a final, you know, thin, uh, layout or thin, uh, image. Uh, so if it's not for that, like, I, I don't, I haven't seen a lot of, you know, um, teams or individuals who are actually within a multi-stage build. There's nothing really against that, but they think the number one purpose of doing multi-stage had been just producing the minimalist image. Um, so just wanted to kind of combine those two answers in one, uh, for sure. >>Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, and with that, um, thank you all for the great questions. We are going to have to wrap this up and we could go for another hour if we all had the time. And if Dr. Khan was a 24 hour long event and it didn't sadly, it's not. So we've got to make room for the next live panel, which will be Peter coming on and talking about security with some developer ex security experts. And I wanted to thank again, thank you all three of you for being here real quick, go around the room. Um, uh, where can people reach out to you? I am, uh, at Bret Fisher on Twitter. You can find me there. Carlos. >>I'm at dev Mandy with a Y D E N D Y that's me, um, >>Easiest name ever on Twitter, Carlos and DFW on LinkedIn. And I also have a LinkedIn learning course. So if you check me out on my LinkedIn learning, >>Yeah. I'm at Nicola Quebec. Um, one word, I'll put it in the chat as well on, on LinkedIn, as well as, uh, uh, as well as Twitter. Thanks for having us, Brett. Yeah. Thanks for being here. >>Um, and, and you all stay around. So if you're in the room with us chatting, you're gonna, you're gonna, if you want to go to see the next live panel, I've got to go back to the beginning and do that whole thing, uh, and find the next, because this one will end, but we'll still be in chat for a few minutes. I think the chat keeps going. I don't actually know. I haven't tried it yet. So we'll find out here in a minute. Um, but thanks you all for being here, I will be back a little bit later, but, uh, coming up next on the live stuff is Peter Wood security. Ciao. Bye.

(water running) (upbeat music) (electric buzzing) >> Fuel up! (upbeat music) (audience clapping) (upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE I'm in our Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. We have a great lineup here for DockerCon 2020. Virtual event, normally it was in person face to face. I'll be with you throughout the day from an amazing lineup of content, over 50 different sessions, cube tracks, keynotes, and we've got two great co-hosts here with Docker, Jenny Burcio and Bret Fisher. We'll be with you all day today, taking you through the program, helping you navigate the sessions. I'm so excited. Jenny, this is a virtual event. We talk about this. Can you believe it? Maybe the internet gods be with us today and hope everyone's having-- >> Yes. >> Easy time getting in. Jenny, Bret, thank you for-- >> Hello. >> Being here. >> Hey. >> Hi everyone, so great to see everyone chatting and telling us where they're from. Welcome to the Docker community. We have a great day planned for you. >> Guys great job getting this all together. I know how hard it is. These virtual events are hard to pull off. I'm blown away by the community at Docker. The amount of sessions that are coming in the sponsor support has been amazing. Just the overall excitement around the brand and the opportunities given this tough times where we're in. It's super exciting again, made the internet gods be with us throughout the day, but there's plenty of content. Bret's got an amazing all day marathon group of people coming in and chatting. Jenny, this has been an amazing journey and it's a great opportunity. Tell us about the virtual event. Why DockerCon virtual. Obviously everyone's canceling their events, but this is special to you guys. Talk about DockerCon virtual this year. >> The Docker community shows up at DockerCon every year, and even though we didn't have the opportunity to do an in person event this year, we didn't want to lose the time that we all come together at DockerCon. The conversations, the amazing content and learning opportunities. So we decided back in December to make DockerCon a virtual event. And of course when we did that, there was no quarantine we didn't expect, you know, I certainly didn't expect to be delivering it from my living room, but we were just, I mean we were completely blown away. There's nearly 70,000 people across the globe that have registered for DockerCon today. And when you look at DockerCon of past right live events, really and we're learning are just the tip of the iceberg and so thrilled to be able to deliver a more inclusive global event today. And we have so much planned I think. Bret, you want to tell us some of the things that you have planned? >> Well, I'm sure I'm going to forget something 'cause there's a lot going on. But, we've obviously got interviews all day today on this channel with John and the crew. Jenny has put together an amazing set of all these speakers, and then you have the captain's on deck, which is essentially the YouTube live hangout where we just basically talk shop. It's all engineers, all day long. Captains and special guests. And we're going to be in chat talking to you about answering your questions. Maybe we'll dig into some stuff based on the problems you're having or the questions you have. Maybe there'll be some random demos, but it's basically not scripted, it's an all day long unscripted event. So I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun hanging out in there. >> Well guys, I want to just say it's been amazing how you structured this so everyone has a chance to ask questions, whether it's informal laid back in the captain's channel or in the sessions, where the speakers will be there with their presentations. But Jenny, I want to get your thoughts because we have a site out there that's structured a certain way for the folks watching. If you're on your desktop, there's a main stage hero. There's then tracks and Bret's running the captain's tracks. You can click on that link and jump into his session all day long. He's got an amazing set of line of sleet, leaning back, having a good time. And then each of the tracks, you can jump into those sessions. It's on a clock, it'll be available on demand. All that content is available if you're on your desktop. If you're on your mobile, it's the same thing. Look at the calendar, find the session that you want. If you're interested in it, you could watch it live and chat with the participants in real time or watch it on demand. So there's plenty of content to navigate through. We do have it on a clock and we'll be streaming sessions as they happen. So you're in the moment and that's a great time to chat in real time. But there's more, Jenny, getting more out of this event. You guys try to bring together the stimulation of community. How does the participants get more out of the the event besides just consuming some of the content all day today? >> Yes, so first set up your profile, put your picture next to your chat handle and then chat. John said we have various setups today to help you get the most out of your experience are breakout sessions. The content is prerecorded, so you get quality content and the speakers and chat so you can ask questions the whole time. If you're looking for the hallway track, then definitely check out the captain's on deck channel. And then we have some great interviews all day on the queue. So set up your profile, join the conversation and be kind, right? This is a community event. Code of conduct is linked on every page at the top, and just have a great day. >> And Bret, you guys have an amazing lineup on the captain, so you have a great YouTube channel that you have your stream on. So the folks who were familiar with that can get that either on YouTube or on the site. The chat is integrated in, So you're set up, what do you got going on? Give us the highlights. What are you excited about throughout your day? Take us through your program on the captains. That's going to be probably pretty dynamic in the chat too. >> Yeah, so I'm sure we're going to have lots of, stuff going on in chat. So no cLancaerns there about, having crickets in the chat. But we're going to be basically starting the day with two of my good Docker captain friends, (murmurs) and Laura Taco. And we're going to basically start you out and at the end of this keynote, at the end of this hour and we're going to get you going and then you can maybe jump out and go to take some sessions. Maybe there's some stuff you want to check out and other sessions that you want to chat and talk with the instructors, the speakers there, and then you're going to come back to us, right? Or go over, check out the interviews. So the idea is you're hopping back and forth and throughout the day we're basically changing out every hour. We're not just changing out the guests basically, but we're also changing out the topics that we can cover because different guests will have different expertise. We're going to have some special guests in from Microsoft, talk about some of the cool stuff going on there, and basically it's captains all day long. And if you've been on my YouTube live show you've watched that, you've seen a lot of the guests we have on there. I'm lucky to just hang out with all these really awesome people around the world, so it's going to be fun. >> Awesome and the content again has been preserved. You guys had a great session on call for paper sessions. Jenny, this is good stuff. What other things can people do to make it interesting? Obviously we're looking for suggestions. Feel free to chirp on Twitter about ideas that can be new. But you guys got some surprises. There's some selfies, what else? What's going on? Any secret, surprises throughout the day. >> There are secret surprises throughout the day. You'll need to pay attention to the keynotes. Bret will have giveaways. I know our wonderful sponsors have giveaways planned as well in their sessions. Hopefully right you feel conflicted about what you're going to attend. So do know that everything is recorded and will be available on demand afterwards so you can catch anything that you miss. Most of them will be available right after they stream the initial time. >> All right, great stuff, so they've got the Docker selfie. So the Docker selfies, the hashtag is just DockerCon hashtag DockerCon. If you feel like you want to add some of the hashtag no problem, check out the sessions. You can pop in and out of the captains is kind of the cool kids are going to be hanging out with Bret and then all they'll knowledge and learning. Don't miss the keynote, the keynote should be solid. We've got chain Governor from red monk delivering a keynote. I'll be interviewing him live after his keynote. So stay with us. And again, check out the interactive calendar. All you got to do is look at the calendar and click on the session you want. You'll jump right in. Hop around, give us feedback. We're doing our best. Bret, any final thoughts on what you want to share to the community around, what you got going on the virtual event, just random thoughts? >> Yeah, so sorry we can't all be together in the same physical place. But the coolest thing about as business online, is that we actually get to involve everyone, so as long as you have a computer and internet, you can actually attend DockerCon if you've never been to one before. So we're trying to recreate that experience online. Like Jenny said, the code of conduct is important. So, we're all in this together with the chat, so try to be nice in there. These are all real humans that, have feelings just like me. So let's try to keep it cool. And, over in the Catherine's channel we'll be taking your questions and maybe playing some music, playing some games, giving away some free stuff, while you're, in between sessions learning, oh yeah. >> And I got to say props to your rig. You've got an amazing setup there, Bret. I love what your show, you do. It's really bad ass and kick ass. So great stuff. Jenny sponsors ecosystem response to this event has been phenomenal. The attendance 67,000. We're seeing a surge of people hitting the site now. So if you're not getting in, just, Wade's going, we're going to crank through the queue, but the sponsors on the ecosystem really delivered on the content side and also the sport. You want to share a few shout outs on the sponsors who really kind of helped make this happen. >> Yeah, so definitely make sure you check out the sponsor pages and you go, each page is the actual content that they will be delivering. So they are delivering great content to you. So you can learn and a huge thank you to our platinum and gold authors. >> Awesome, well I got to say, I'm super impressed. I'm looking forward to the Microsoft Amazon sessions, which are going to be good. And there's a couple of great customer sessions there. I tweeted this out last night and let them get you guys' reaction to this because there's been a lot of talk around the COVID crisis that we're in, but there's also a positive upshot to this is Cambridge and explosion of developers that are going to be building new apps. And I said, you know, apps aren't going to just change the world, they're going to save the world. So a lot of the theme here is the impact that developers are having right now in the current situation. If we get the goodness of compose and all the things going on in Docker and the relationships, this real impact happening with the developer community. And it's pretty evident in the program and some of the talks and some of the examples. how containers and microservices are certainly changing the world and helping save the world, your thoughts. >> Like you said, a number of sessions and interviews in the program today that really dive into that. And even particularly around COVID, Clement Beyondo is sharing his company's experience, from being able to continue operations in Italy when they were completely shut down beginning of March. We have also in theCUBE channel several interviews about from the national Institute of health and precision cancer medicine at the end of the day. And you just can really see how containerization and developers are moving in industry and really humanity forward because of what they're able to build and create, with advances in technology. >> Yeah and the first responders and these days is developers. Bret compose is getting a lot of traction on Twitter. I can see some buzz already building up. There's huge traction with compose, just the ease of use and almost a call for arms for integrating into all the system language libraries, I mean, what's going on with compose? I mean, what's the captain say about this? I mean, it seems to be really tracking in terms of demand and interest. >> I think we're over 700,000 composed files on GitHub. So it's definitely beyond just the standard Docker run commands. It's definitely the next tool that people use to run containers. Just by having that we just buy, and that's not even counting. I mean that's just counting the files that are named Docker compose YAML. So I'm sure a lot of you out there have created a YAML file to manage your local containers or even on a server with Docker compose. And the nice thing is is Docker is doubling down on that. So we've gotten some news recently, from them about what they want to do with opening the spec up, getting more companies involved because compose is already gathered so much interest from the community. You know, AWS has importers, there's Kubernetes importers for it. So there's more stuff coming and we might just see something here in a few minutes. >> All right, well let's get into the keynote guys, jump into the keynote. If you missing anything, come back to the stream, check out the sessions, check out the calendar. Let's go, let's have a great time. Have some fun, thanks and enjoy the rest of the day we'll see you soon. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Okay, what is the name of that Whale? >> Molly. >> And what is the name of this Whale? >> Mobby. >> That's right, dad's got to go, thanks bud. >> Bye. >> Bye. Hi, I'm Scott Johnson, CEO of Docker and welcome to DockerCon 2020. This year DockerCon is an all virtual event with more than 60,000 members of the Docker Community joining from around the world. And with the global shelter in place policies, we're excited to offer a unifying, inclusive virtual community event in which anyone and everyone can participate from their home. As a company, Docker has been through a lot of changes since our last DockerCon last year. The most important starting last November, is our refocusing 100% on developers and development teams. As part of that refocusing, one of the big challenges we've been working on, is how to help development teams quickly and efficiently get their app from code to cloud And wouldn't it be cool, if developers could quickly deploy to the cloud right from their local environment with the commands and workflow they already know. We're excited to give you a sneak preview of what we've been working on. And rather than slides, we thought we jumped right into the product. And joining me demonstrate some of these cool new features, is enclave your DACA. One of our engineers here at Docker working on Docker compose. Hello Lanca. >> Hello. >> We're going to show how an application development team collaborates using Docker desktop and Docker hub. And then deploys the app directly from the Docker command line to the clouds in just two commands. A development team would use this to quickly share functional changes of their app with the product management team, with beta testers or other development teams. Let's go ahead and take a look at our app. Now, this is a web app, that randomly pulls words from the database, and assembles them into sentences. You can see it's a pretty typical three tier application with each tier implemented in its own container. We have a front end web service, a middle tier, which implements the logic to randomly pull the words from the database and assemble them and a backend database. And here you can see the database uses the Postgres official image from Docker hub. Now let's first run the app locally using Docker command line and the Docker engine in Docker desktop. We'll do a Doc compose up and you can see that it's pulling the containers from our Docker organization account. Wordsmith, inc. Now that it's up. Let's go ahead and look at local host and we'll confirm that the application is functioning as desired. So there's one sentence, let's pull and now you and you can indeed see that we are pulling random words and assembling into sentences. Now you can also see though that the look and feel is a bit dated. And so Lanca is going to show us how easy it is to make changes and share them with the rest of the team. Lanca, over to you. >> Thank you, so I have, the source code of our application on my machine and I have updated it with the latest team from DockerCon 2020. So before committing the code, I'm going to build the application locally and run it, to verify that indeed the changes are good. So I'm going to build with Docker compose the image for the web service. Now that the image has been built, I'm going to deploy it locally. Wait to compose up. We can now check the dashboard in a Docker desktop that indeed our containers are up and running, and we can access, we can open in the web browser, the end point for the web service. So as we can see, we have the latest changes in for our application. So as you can see, the application has been updated successfully. So now, I'm going to push the image that I have just built to my organization's shared repository on Docker hub. So I can do this with Docker compose push web. Now that the image has been updated in the Docker hub repository, or my teammates can access it and check the changes. >> Excellent, well, thank you Lanca. Now of course, in these times, video conferencing is the new normal, and as great as it is, video conferencing does not allow users to actually test the application. And so, to allow us to have our app be accessible by others outside organizations such as beta testers or others, let's go ahead and deploy to the cloud. >> Sure we, can do this by employing a context. A Docker context, is a mechanism that we can use to target different platforms for deploying containers. The context we hold, information as the endpoint for the platform, and also how to authenticate to it. So I'm going to list the context that I have set locally. As you can see, I'm currently using the default context that is pointing to my local Docker engine. So all the commands that I have issued so far, we're targeting my local engine. Now, in order to deploy the application on a cloud. I have an account in the Azure Cloud, where I have no resource running currently, and I have created for this account, dedicated context that will hold the information on how to connect it to it. So now all I need to do, is to switch to this context, with Docker context use, and the name of my cloud context. So all the commands that I'm going to run, from now on, are going to target the cloud platform. So we can also check very, more simpler, in a simpler way we can check the running containers with Docker PS. So as we see no container is running in my cloud account. Now to deploy the application, all I need to do is to run a Docker compose up. And this will trigger the deployment of my application. >> Thanks Lanca. Now notice that Lanca did not have to move the composed file from Docker desktop to Azure. Notice you have to make any changes to the Docker compose file, and nor did she change any of the containers that she and I were using locally in our local environments. So the same composed file, same images, run locally and upon Azure without changes. While the app is deploying to Azure, let's highlight some of the features in Docker hub that helps teams with remote first collaboration. So first, here's our team's account where it (murmurs) and you can see the updated container sentences web that Lanca just pushed a couple of minutes ago. As far as collaboration, we can add members using their Docker ID or their email, and then we can organize them into different teams depending on their role in the application development process. So and then Lancae they're organized into different teams, we can assign them permissions, so that teams can work in parallel without stepping on each other's changes accidentally. For example, we'll give the engineering team full read, write access, whereas the product management team will go ahead and just give read only access. So this role based access controls, is just one of the many features in Docker hub that allows teams to collaboratively and quickly develop applications. Okay Lanca, how's our app doing? >> Our app has been successfully deployed to the cloud. So, we can easily check either the Azure portal to verify the containers running for it or simpler we can run a Docker PS again to get the list with the containers that have been deployed for it. In the output from the Docker PS, we can see an end point that we can use to access our application in the web browser. So we can see the application running in clouds. It's really up to date and now we can take this particular endpoint and share it within our organization such that anybody can have a look at it. >> That's cool Onka. We showed how we can deploy an app to the cloud in minutes and just two commands, and using commands that Docker users already know, thanks so much. In that sneak preview, you saw a team developing an app collaboratively, with a tool chain that includes Docker desktop and Docker hub. And simply by switching Docker context from their local environment to the cloud, deploy that app to the cloud, to Azure without leaving the command line using Docker commands they already know. And in doing so, really simplifying for development team, getting their app from code to cloud. And just as important, what you did not see, was a lot of complexity. You did not see cloud specific interfaces, user management or security. You did not see us having to provision and configure compute networking and storage resources in the cloud. And you did not see infrastructure specific application changes to either the composed file or the Docker images. And by simplifying a way that complexity, these new features help application DevOps teams, quickly iterate and get their ideas, their apps from code to cloud, and helping development teams, build share and run great applications, is what Docker is all about. A Docker is able to simplify for development teams getting their app from code to cloud quickly as a result of standards, products and ecosystem partners. It starts with open standards for applications and application artifacts, and active open source communities around those standards to ensure portability and choice. Then as you saw in the demo, the Docker experience delivered by Docker desktop and Docker hub, simplifies a team's collaborative development of applications, and together with ecosystem partners provides every stage of an application development tool chain. For example, deploying applications to the cloud in two commands. What you saw on the demo, well that's an extension of our strategic partnership with Microsoft, which we announced yesterday. And you can learn more about our partnership from Amanda Silver from Microsoft later today, right here at DockerCon. Another tool chain stage, the capability to scan applications for security and vulnerabilities, as a result of our partnership with Sneak, which we announced last week. You can learn more about that partnership from Peter McKay, CEO Sneak, again later today, right here at DockerCon. A third example, development team can automate the build of container images upon a simple get push, as a result of Docker hub integrations with GitHub and Alaska and Bitbucket. As a final example of Docker and the ecosystem helping teams quickly build applications, together with our ISV partners. We offer in Docker hub over 500 official and verified publisher images of ready to run Dockerized application components such as databases, load balancers, programming languages, and much more. Of course, none of this happens without people. And I would like to take a moment to thank four groups of people in particular. First, the Docker team, past and present. We've had a challenging 12 months including a restructuring and then a global pandemic, and yet their support for each other, and their passion for the product, this community and our customers has never been stronger. We think our community, Docker wouldn't be Docker without you, and whether you're one of the 50 Docker captains, they're almost 400 meetup organizers, the thousands of contributors and maintainers. Every day you show up, you give back, you teach new support. We thank our users, more than six and a half million developers who have built more than 7 million applications and are then sharing those applications through Docker hub at a rate of more than one and a half billion poles per week. Those apps are then run, are more than 44 million Docker engines. And finally, we thank our customers, the over 18,000 docker subscribers, both individual developers and development teams from startups to large organizations, 60% of which are outside the United States. And they spend every industry vertical, from media, to entertainment to manufacturing. healthcare and much more. Thank you. Now looking forward, given these unprecedented times, we would like to offer a challenge. While it would be easy to feel helpless and miss this global pandemic, the challenge is for us as individuals and as a community to instead see and grasp the tremendous opportunities before us to be forces for good. For starters, look no further than the pandemic itself, in the fight against this global disaster, applications and data are playing a critical role, and the Docker Community quickly recognize this and rose to the challenge. There are over 600 COVID-19 related publicly available projects on Docker hub today, from data processing to genome analytics to data visualization folding at home. The distributed computing project for simulating protein dynamics, is also available on Docker hub, and it uses spirit compute capacity to analyze COVID-19 proteins to aid in the design of new therapies. And right here at DockerCon, you can hear how Clemente Biondo and his company engineering in Gagne area Informatica are using Docker in the fight with COVID-19 in Italy every day. Now, in addition to fighting the pandemic directly, as a community, we also have an opportunity to bridge the disruption the pandemic is wreaking. It's impacting us at work and at home in every country around the world and every aspect of our lives. For example, many of you have a student at home, whose world is going to be very different when they returned to school. As employees, all of us have experienced the stresses from working from home as well as many of the benefits and in fact 75% of us say that going forward, we're going to continue to work from home at least occasionally. And of course one of the biggest disruptions has been job losses, over 35 million in the United States alone. And we know that's affected many of you. And yet your skills are in such demand and so important now more than ever. And that's why here at DockerCon, we want to try to do our part to help, and we're promoting this hashtag on Twitter, hashtag DockerCon jobs, where job seekers and those offering jobs can reach out to one another and connect. Now, pandemics disruption is accelerating the shift of more and more of our time, our priorities, our dollars from offline to online to hybrid, and even online only ways of living. We need to find new ways to collaborate, new approaches to engage customers, new modes for education and much more. And what is going to fill the needs created by this acceleration from offline, online? New applications. And it's this need, this demand for all these new applications that represents a great opportunity for the Docker community of developers. The world needs us, needs you developers now more than ever. So let's seize this moment. Let us in our teams, go build share and run great new applications. Thank you for joining today. And let's have a great DockerCon. >> Okay, welcome back to the DockerCon studio headquarters in your hosts, Jenny Burcio and myself John Furrier. u@farrier on Twitter. If you want to tweet me anything @DockerCon as well, share what you're thinking. Great keynote there from Scott CEO. Jenny, demo DockerCon jobs, some highlights there from Scott. Yeah, I love the intro. It's okay I'm about to do the keynote. The little green room comes on, makes it human. We're all trying to survive-- >> Let me answer the reality of what we are all doing with right now. I had to ask my kids to leave though or they would crash the whole stream but yes, we have a great community, a large community gather gathered here today, and we do want to take the opportunity for those that are looking for jobs, are hiring, to share with the hashtag DockerCon jobs. In addition, we want to support direct health care workers, and Bret Fisher and the captains will be running a all day charity stream on the captain's channel. Go there and you'll get the link to donate to directrelief.org which is a California based nonprofit, delivering and aid and supporting health care workers globally response to the COVID-19 crisis. >> Okay, if you jumping into the stream, I'm John Farrie with Jenny Webby, your hosts all day today throughout DockerCon. It's a packed house of great content. You have a main stream, theCUBE which is the mainstream that we'll be promoting a lot of cube interviews. But check out the 40 plus sessions underneath in the interactive calendar on dockercon.com site. Check it out, they're going to be live on a clock. So if you want to participate in real time in the chat, jump into your session on the track of your choice and participate with the folks in there chatting. If you miss it, it's going to go right on demand right after sort of all content will be immediately be available. So make sure you check it out. Docker selfie is a hashtag. Take a selfie, share it. Docker hashtag Docker jobs. If you're looking for a job or have openings, please share with the community and of course give us feedback on what you can do. We got James Governor, the keynote coming up next. He's with Red monk. Not afraid to share his opinion on open source on what companies should be doing, and also the evolution of this Cambrin explosion of apps that are going to be coming as we come out of this post pandemic world. A lot of people are thinking about this, the crisis and following through. So stay with us for more and more coverage. Jenny, favorite sessions on your mind for people to pay attention to that they should (murmurs)? >> I just want to address a few things that continue to come up in the chat sessions, especially breakout sessions after they play live and the speakers in chat with you, those go on demand, they are recorded, you will be able to access them. Also, if the screen is too small, there is the button to expand full screen, and different quality levels for the video that you can choose on your end. All the breakout sessions also have closed captioning, so please if you would like to read along, turn that on so you can, stay with the sessions. We have some great sessions, kicking off right at 10:00 a.m, getting started with Docker. We have a full track really in the how to enhance on that you should check out devs in action, hear what other people are doing and then of course our sponsors are delivering great content to you all day long. >> Tons of content. It's all available. They'll always be up always on at large scale. Thanks for watching. Now we got James Governor, the keynote. He's with Red Monk, the analyst firm and has been tracking open source for many generations. He's been doing amazing work. Watch his great keynote. I'm going to be interviewing him live right after. So stay with us and enjoy the rest of the day. We'll see you back shortly. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm James Governor, one of the co-founders of a company called RedMonk. We're an industry research firm focusing on developer led technology adoption. So that's I guess why Docker invited me to DockerCon 2020 to talk about some trends that we're seeing in the world of work and software development. So Monk Chips, that's who I am. I spent a lot of time on Twitter. It's a great research tool. It's a great way to find out what's going on with keep track of, as I say, there's people that we value so highly software developers, engineers and practitioners. So when I started talking to Docker about this event and it was pre Rhona, should we say, the idea of a crowd wasn't a scary thing, but today you see something like this, it makes you feel uncomfortable. This is not a place that I want to be. I'm pretty sure it's a place you don't want to be. And you know, to that end, I think it's interesting quote by Ellen Powell, she says, "Work from home is now just work" And we're going to see more and more of that. Organizations aren't feeling the same way they did about work before. Who all these people? Who is my cLancaern? So GitHub says has 50 million developers right on its network. Now, one of the things I think is most interesting, it's not that it has 50 million developers. Perhaps that's a proxy for number of developers worldwide. But quite frankly, a lot of those accounts, there's all kinds of people there. They're just Selena's. There are data engineers, there are data scientists, there are product managers, there were tech marketers. It's a big, big community and it goes way beyond just software developers itself. Frankly for me, I'd probably be saying there's more like 20 to 25 million developers worldwide, but GitHub knows a lot about the world of code. So what else do they know? One of the things they know is that world of code software and opensource, is becoming increasingly global. I get so excited about this stuff. The idea that there are these different software communities around the planet where we're seeing massive expansions in terms of things like open source. Great example is Nigeria. So Nigeria more than 200 million people, right? The energy there in terms of events, in terms of learning, in terms of teaching, in terms of the desire to code, the desire to launch businesses, desire to be part of a global software community is just so exciting. And you know, these, this sort of energy is not just in Nigeria, it's in other countries in Africa, it's happening in Egypt. It's happening around the world. This energy is something that's super interesting to me. We need to think about that. We've got global that we need to solve. And software is going to be a big part of that. At the moment, we can talk about other countries, but what about frankly the gender gap, the gender issue that, you know, from 1984 onwards, the number of women taking computer science degrees began to, not track but to create in comparison to what men were doing. The tech industry is way too male focused, there are men that are dominant, it's not welcoming, we haven't found ways to have those pathways and frankly to drive inclusion. And the women I know in tech, have to deal with the massively disproportionate amount of stress and things like online networks. But talking about online networks and talking about a better way of living, I was really excited by get up satellite recently, was a fantastic demo by Alison McMillan and she did a demo of a code spaces. So code spaces is Microsoft online ID, new platform that they've built. And online IDs, we're never quite sure, you know, plenty of people still out there just using the max. But, visual studio code has been a big success. And so this idea of moving to one online IDE, it's been around that for awhile. What they did was just make really tight integration. So you're in your GitHub repo and just be able to create a development environment with effectively one click, getting rid of all of the act shaving, making it super easy. And what I loved was it the demo, what Ali's like, yeah cause this is great. One of my kids are having a nap, I can just start (murmurs) and I don't have to sort out all the rest of it. And to me that was amazing. It was like productivity as inclusion. I'm here was a senior director at GitHub. They're doing this amazing work and then making this clear statement about being a parent. And I think that was fantastic. Because that's what, to me, importantly just working from home, which has been so challenging for so many of us, began to open up new possibilities, and frankly exciting possibilities. So Alley's also got a podcast parent-driven development, which I think is super important. Because this is about men and women rule in this together show parenting is a team sport, same as software development. And the idea that we should be thinking about, how to be more productive, is super important to me. So I want to talk a bit about developer culture and how it led to social media. Because you know, your social media, we're in this ad bomb stage now. It's TikTok, it's like exercise, people doing incredible back flips and stuff like that. Doing a bunch of dancing. We've had the world of sharing cat gifts, Facebook, we sort of see social media is I think a phenomenon in its own right. Whereas the me, I think it's interesting because it's its progenitors, where did it come from? So here's (murmurs) So 1971, one of the features in the emergency management information system, that he built, which it's topical, it was for medical tracking medical information as well, medical emergencies, included a bulletin board system. So that it could keep track of what people were doing on a team and make sure that they were collaborating effectively, boom! That was the start of something big, obviously. Another day I think is worth looking at 1983, Sorania Pullman, spanning tree protocol. So at DEC, they were very good at distributed systems. And the idea was that you can have a distributed system and so much of the internet working that we do today was based on radius work. And then it showed that basically, you could span out a huge network so that everyone could collaborate. That is incredibly exciting in terms of the trends, that I'm talking about. So then let's look at 1988, you've got IRC. IRC what developer has not used IRC, right. Well, I guess maybe some of the other ones might not have. But I don't know if we're post IRC yet, but (murmurs) at a finished university, really nailed it with IRC as a platform that people could communicate effectively with. And then we go into like 1991. So we've had IRC, we've had finished universities, doing a lot of really fantastic work about collaboration. And I don't think it was necessarily an accident that this is where the line is twofold, announced Linux. So Linux was a wonderfully packaged, idea in terms of we're going to take this Unix thing. And when I say package, what a package was the idea that we could collaborate on software. So, it may have just been the work of one person, but clearly what made it important, made it interesting, was finding a social networking pattern, for software development so that everybody could work on something at scale. That was really, I think, fundamental and foundational. Now I think it's important, We're going to talk about Linus, to talk about some things that are not good about software culture, not good about open source culture, not good about hacker culture. And that's where I'm going to talk about code of conduct. We have not been welcoming to new people. We got the acronyms, JFTI, We call people news, that's super unhelpful. We've got to find ways to be more welcoming and more self-sustaining in our communities, because otherwise communities will fail. And I'd like to thank everyone that has a code of conduct and has encouraged others to have codes of conduct. We need to have codes of conduct that are enforced to ensure that we have better diversity at our events. And that's what women, underrepresented minorities, all different kinds of people need to be well looked off to and be in safe and inclusive spaces. And that's the online events. But of course it's also for all of our activities offline. So Linus, as I say, I'm not the most charming of characters at all time, but he has done some amazing technology. So we got to like 2005 the creation of GIT. Not necessarily the distributed version control system that would win. But there was some interesting principles there, and they'd come out of the work that he had done in terms of trying to build and sustain the Linux code base. So it was very much based on experience. He had an itch that he needed to scratch and there was a community that was this building, this thing. So what was going to be the option, came up with Git foundational to another huge wave of social change, frankly get to logical awesome. April 20 April, 2008 GitHub, right? GiHub comes up, they've looked at Git, they've packaged it up, they found a way to make it consumable so the teams could use it and really begin to take advantage of the power of that distributed version control model. Now, ironically enough, of course they centralized the service in doing so. So we have a single point of failure on GitHub. But on the other hand, the notion of the poll request, the primitives that they established and made usable by people, that changed everything in terms of software development. I think another one that I'd really like to look at is Slack. So Slack is a huge success used by all different kinds of businesses. But it began specifically as a pivot from a company called Glitch. It was a game company and they still wanted, a tool internally that was better than IRC. So they built out something that later became Slack. So Slack 2014, is established as a company and basically it was this Slack fit software engineering. The focus on automation, the conversational aspects, the asynchronous aspects. It really pulled things together in a way that was interesting to software developers. And I think we've seen this pattern in the world, frankly, of the last few years. Software developers are influences. So Slack first used by the engineering teams, later used by everybody. And arguably you could say the same thing actually happened with Apple. Apple was mainstreamed by developers adopting that platform. Get to 2013, boom again, Solomon Hikes, Docker, right? So Docker was, I mean containers were not new, they were just super hard to use. People found it difficult technology, it was Easter Terek. It wasn't something that they could fully understand. Solomon did an incredible job of understanding how containers could fit into modern developer workflows. So if we think about immutable images, if we think about the ability to have everything required in the package where you are, it really tied into what people were trying to do with CICD, tied into microservices. And certainly the notion of sort of display usability Docker nailed that, and I guess from this conference, at least the rest is history. So I want to talk a little bit about, scratching the itch. And particularly what has become, I call it the developer authentic. So let's go into dark mode now. I've talked about developers laying out these foundations and frameworks that, the mainstream, frankly now my son, he's 14, he (murmurs) at me if I don't have dark mode on in an application. And it's this notion that developers, they have an aesthetic, it does get adopted I mean it's quite often jokey. One of the things we've seen in the really successful platforms like GitHub, Docker, NPM, let's look at GitHub. Let's look at over that Playfulness. I think was really interesting. And that changes the world of work, right? So we've got the world of work which can be buttoned up, which can be somewhat tight. I think both of those companies were really influential, in thinking that software development, which is a profession, it's also something that can and is fun. And I think about how can we make it more fun? How can we develop better applications together? Takes me to, if we think about Docker talking about build, share and run, for me the key word is share, because development has to be a team sport. It needs to be sharing. It needs to be kind and it needs to bring together people to do more effective work. Because that's what it's all about, doing effective work. If you think about zoom, it's a proxy for collaboration in terms of its value. So we've got all of these airlines and frankly, add up that their share that add up their total value. It's currently less than Zoom. So video conferencing has become so much of how we live now on a consumer basis. But certainly from a business to business perspective. I want to talk about how we live now. I want to think about like, what will come out all of this traumatic and it is incredibly traumatic time? I'd like to say I'm very privileged. I can work from home. So thank you to all the frontline workers that are out there that they're not in that position. But overall what I'm really thinking about, there's some things that will come out of this that will benefit us as a culture. Looking at cities like Paris, Milan, London, New York, putting a new cycling infrastructure, so that people can social distance and travel outside because they don't feel comfortable on public transport. I think sort of amazing widening pavements or we can't do that. All these cities have done it literally overnight. This sort of changes is exciting. And what does come off that like, oh there are some positive aspects of the current issues that we face. So I've got a conference or I've got a community that may and some of those, I've been working on. So Katie from HashiCorp and Carla from container solutions basically about, look, what will the world look like in developer relations? Can we have developer relations without the air miles? 'Cause developer advocates, they do too much travel ends up, you know, burning them out, develop relations. People don't like to say no. They may have bosses that say, you know, I was like, Oh that corporates went great. Now we're going to roll it out worldwide to 47 cities. That's stuff is terrible. It's terrible from a personal perspective, it's really terrible from an environmental perspective. We need to travel less. Virtual events are crushing it. Microsoft just at build, right? Normally that'd be just over 10,000 people, they had 245,000 plus registrations. 40,000 of them in the last day, right? Red Hat summit, 80,000 people, IBM think 90,000 people, GitHub Crushed it as well. Like this is a more inclusive way people can dip in. They can be from all around the world. I mentioned Nigeria and how fantastic it is. Very often Nigerian developers and advocates find it hard to get visas. Why should they be shut out of events? Events are going to start to become remote first because frankly, look at it, if you're turning in those kinds of numbers, and Microsoft was already doing great online events, but they absolutely nailed it. They're going to have to ask some serious questions about why everybody should get back on a plane again. So if you're going to do remote, you've got to be intentional about it. It's one thing I've learned some exciting about GitLab. GitLab's culture is amazing. Everything is documented, everything is public, everything is transparent. Think that really clear and if you look at their principles, everything, you can't have implicit collaboration models. Everything needs to be documented and explicit, so that anyone can work anywhere and they can still be part of the team. Remote first is where we're at now, Coinbase, Shopify, even Barkley says the not going to go back to having everybody in offices in the way they used to. This is a fundamental shift. And I think it's got significant implications for all industries, but definitely for software development. Here's the thing, the last 20 years were about distributed computing, microservices, the cloud, we've got pretty good at that. The next 20 years will be about distributed work. We can't have everybody living in San Francisco and London and Berlin. The talent is distributed, the talent is elsewhere. So how are we going to build tools? Who is going to scratch that itch to build tools to make them more effective? Who's building the next generation of apps, you are, thanks.

>> announcer: From around the globe. It's the theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage here at the DockerCon virtual headquarters, anchor desks here in the Palo Alto Studios were quarantined in this virtual event of DockerCon. I'm John Furrier, host along with Jenny Bertuccio, John Kreisa, Peter McKee, other folks who are moderating and weaving in and out of the sessions. But here we have a live sessions with Justin Graham, Vice President of the Products group at Docker. Justin, thanks for coming in DockerCon virtual '20. >> Absolutely, happy to be here from my home office in Seattle, Washington where it is almost sunny. >> You had a great backdrop traveler saying in the chat you got a bandwidth, a lot of bandwidth there. Looking good, some island. What a day for Docker global event. 77,000 people registered. It's just been an awesome party. >> It's been great, I could hardly sleep last night. I was up at 5:00 this morning. I was telling my son about it at breakfast. I interrupted his Zoom school. And he talked a little bit about it, so it's been awesome. I've been waiting for this interview slot for the most of the day. >> So yeah, I got to tell the kids to get off, download those gigabytes of new game updates and get off Netflix, I hear you. But you got good bandwidth. Let's get into it, I love your position. VP of Product at a company that's super technical, a lot of software, a lot of cloud. You've got a good view of the landscape of what the current situation is relative to the product, the deals that are going on with this new announced here, sneak Microsoft expansion, multiple clouds as well as the roadmap and community interaction. So you got a lot going on, you've got your fingers in all the action. When you get the keys to the kingdom, as we say in the product side of things, what's the story today from your perspective around DockerCon? What's the most important thing people should know about of what's going on with this new Docker? Obviously, ease of use, we've heard a lot about. What's going on? >> So I'll start with people. We are hyper focused on helping developers and development teams build and ship applications. That's what we're focused on. That's what we wake up every day thinking about. And we double click on that a minute in terms of what that means. If you think about where source control ends and having a running application on some production compute in the Cloud on the other end, there's a whole lot that needs to happen in the middle of those two things. And we hear from our development community and we see from those folks, there's a lot of complexity and choices and options and things in the middle there. And we really want to help streamline the creation of those pipelines to get those apps moving to production as fastly, as quickly as possible. >> And you can see it in some of the results and some of the sessions, one session coming up at around four, around how pipelining with Docker help increase the problem solving around curing cancer, really solving, saving people's lives to the front lines with COVID 19 to business value. So you seeing, again Docker coming back into the fold relative to the simple value proposition of making things super easy for developers, but on top of the mega trend of microservices. So, outside of some of these awesome sessions with his learning, the hardcore sessions here at DockerCon around microservices from monitoring, you name it, not a trivial thing cause you've got stateless and state, all kinds of new things are going on with multiple clouds. So not an easy-- >> No. >> road to kind of grok or understand you have to manage that. What are people paying attention to? What is happening? I think, first off I'll say, one of the things that I'm super passionate about is increasing access to technology, so the greatest and best ideas can get bubbled up to the top and expose no matter where they come from, whom they come from, et cetera. And I think one of the things that makes that harder, that makes that complex is just how much developers need to understand or even emerging developers need to understand. Just to even get started. Languages, IDEs, packaging, building where do you ship to? If you pick a certain powder end point, you have to understand networking and storage and identity models are just so much you have to absorb. So we're hyper focused on how can we make that complex super easy. And these are all the things that we get asked questions on. And we get interacted with on our public roadmap in other places to help with. So that's the biggest things that you're going to see coming out of Docker starting now and moving forward. We'll be serving that end. >> Let's talk about some of the new execution successes you guys had. Honestly, Snyk is security shifting left, that's a major, I think a killer win for Snyk. Obviously, getting access to millions of developers use Docker and vice versa. Into the shifting left, you get to security in that workflow piece. Microsoft expanding relationship's interesting as well because Microsoft's got a robust tech developer ecosystem. They have their own tools. So, you see these symbiotic relationship with Docker, again, coming into the fold where there's a lot of working together going on. Explain that meaning, what does that mean? >> So you're on the back of the refocus Docker in our hyperfocus on developers and development teams, one of the core tenants of the how. So before that was the what. This is the how we're going to go do it. Is by partnering with the ecosystem as much as possible and bringing the best of breed in front of developers in a way that they can most easily consume. So if you take the Snyk partnership that was just a match, a match made in developer dopamine as a Sean Connolly, would say. We're hyper focused on developers and development teams and Snyk is also hyperfocused on making it as easy as possible for developers and development teams to stay secure ship, fast and stay secure. So it really just matched up super well. And then if you think, "Well, how do we even get there in the first place?" Well, we launched our public roadmap a few months ago, which was a first that Docker has ever done. And one of the first things that comes onto that public roadmap is image vulnerability scanning. For Docker, at that time it was really just focused on Docker Hub in terms of how it came through the roadmap. It got up voted a bunch, there has been some interaction and then we thought, "Well, why just like checking that box isn't enough," right? It's just checking the box. What can we do that really brings sort of the promise of the Docker experience to something like this? And Sneak was an immediate thought, in that respect. And we just really got in touch with them and we just saw eye to eye almost immediately. And then off off the rest went. The second piece of it was really around, well why just do it in Docker Hub? What about Docker Desktop? It's downloaded 80,000 times a week and it's got 2.2 million active installations on a weekly basis. What about those folks? So we decided to raise the bar again and say, "Hey, let's make sure that this partnership includes "not only Docker Hub but Docker Desktop, so you'll be able, when we launch this, to scan your images locally on Docker Desktop. >> Awesome, I see getting some phone calls and then you got to hit this, hit the end button real quick. I saw that in there. I've got an interesting chat I want to just kind of lighten things up a little bit from Brian Stevenson. He says, "Justin, what glasses are those?" (Justin laughing) So he wants to know what kind of glasses you're wearing. >> They're glasses that I think signal that I turned 40 last year. >> (laughs) I'd say it's for your gaming environments, the blue light glasses. >> But I'm not going to say where they came from because it's probably not going to engender a bunch of positive good. But they're nice glasses. They help me see the computer screen and make sure that I'm not a bad fingering my CLI commands >> Well as old guys need the glasses, certainly I do. Speaking of old and young, this brought up a conversation since that came up, I'll just quickly riff into this cause I think it's interesting, Kelsey Hightower, during the innovation panel talked about how the developers and people want to just do applications, someone to get under the hood, up and down the stack. I was riffing with John Chrysler, around kind of the new generation, the kids coming in, the young guns, they all this goodness at their disposal. They didn't have to load Linux on a desktop and Rack and Stack servers all that good stuff. So it's so much more capable today. And so this speaks to the modern era and the expansion overall of opensource and the expansion of the people involved, new expectations and new experiences are required. So as a product person, how do you think about that? Because you don't want to just build for the old, you got to build for the new as well as the experience changes and expectations are different. What's your thoughts around that? >> Yeah, I think about sort of my start in this industry as a really good answer to that. I mean, I remember as a kid, I think I asked for a computer for every birthday and Christmas from when I was six, until I got one given to me by a friend's parents in 1994, on my way off to boarding school. And so it took that long just for me to get a computer into my hands. And then when I was in school there wasn't any role sort of Computer Science or coding courses until my senior year. And then I had to go to an Engineering School at Rensselaer city to sort of get that experience at the time. I mean, just to even get into this industry and learn how to code was just, I mean, so many things had to go my way. And then Microsoft hired me out of college. Another thing that sort of fell my way. So this work that we're doing is just so important because I worked hard, but I had a lot of luck. But not everybody's going to have some of that, right? Have that luck. So how can we make it just as easy as possible for folks to get started wherever you are. If you have a family and you're working another full time job, can you spend a few hours at night learning Docker? We can help you with that. Download Docker Desktop. We have tutorials, we have great docs, we have great captains who teach courses. So everything we're doing is sort of in service of that vision and that democratization of getting into the ideas. And I love what Kelsey, said in terms of, let's stop talking about the tech and let's stop talking about what folks can do with the tech. And that's very, very poignant. So we're really working on like, we'll take care of all the complexity behind the scenes and all of the VMs and the launching of containers and the network. We'll try to help take care of all that complexity behind the curtain so that you can just focus on getting your idea built as a developer. >> Yeah, and you mentioned Kelsey, again. He got a great story about his daughter and Serverless and I was joking on Twitter that his daughter convinced them that Serverless is great. Of course we know that Kelsey already loves Serverless. But he's pointing out this developer dopamine. He didn't say that's Shawn's word, but that's really what his daughter wanted to do is show her friends a website that she built, not get into, "Hey look, I just did a Kubernetes cluster." I mean it's not like... But pick your swim lane. This is what it's all about now. >> Yeah, I hope my son never has to understand what a service mesh is or proxy is. Right? >> Yeah. >> I just hope he just learn the language and just learns how to bring an idea to life and all the rest of it is just behind me here. >> When he said I had a parenting moment, I thought he's going to say something like that. Like, "Oh my kid did it." No, I had to describe whether it's a low level data structure or (laughs) just use Serverless. Shifting gears on the product roadmap for Docker, can you share how folks can learn about it and can you give some commentary on what you're thinking right now? I know you guys put on GitHub. Is there a link available-- >> Absolutely, available. Github.com/docker/roadmap. We tried to be very, very poignant about how we named that. So it was as easy as possible. We launched it a few months ago. It was a first in terms of Docker publicly sharing it's roadmap and what we're thinking and what we're working on. And you'll find very clear instructions of how to post issues and get started. What our code of conduct is. And then you can just get started and we even have a template for you to get started and submit an issue and talk to us about it. And internally my team and to many of our engineers as well, we triaged what we see changing and coming into the public roadmap two to three times a week. So for a half an hour to 45 minutes at a time. And then we're on Slack, batting around ideas that are coming in and saying how we can improve those. So for everyone out there, we really do pay attention to this very frequently. And we iterate on it and the image vulnerability scannings one of those great examples you can see some other things that we're working on up there. So I will say this though, there has been some continual asks for our Lennox version of Docker Desktop. So I will commit that, if we get 500 up votes, that we will triage and figure out how to get that done over a period of time. >> You heard 500 up votes to triage-- >> 500 >> You as get that. And is there a shipping date on that if they get the 500 up votes? >> No, no, (John laughs) you went to a shipping date yet, but it's on the public roadmap. So you'll know when we're working on it and when we're getting there. >> I want before I get into your session you had with the capital, which is a very geeky session getting under the hood, I'm more on the business side. The tail wind obviously for Docker is the micro services trend. What containers has enabled is just going to continue to get more awesome and complex but also a lot of value and agility and all the things you guys are talking about. So that obviously is going to be a tailwind for you. But as you guys look at that piece of it, specifically the business value, how is Docker positioned? Because a of the use cases are, no one really starts out microservices from a clean sheet of paper that we heard some talks here DockerCon where the financial services company said, "Hey, it's simple stack," and then it became feature creep, which became a monolith. And then they had to move that technical debt into a much more polyglot system where you have multiple tools and there's a lot of things going on, that seems to be the trend that also speaks to the legacy environment that most enterprises have. Could you share your view on how Docker fits into those worlds? Because you're either coming from a simple stack that more often and got successful and you're going to go microservice or you have legacy, then you want to decouple and make it highly cohesive. So your thoughts. >> So the simple answer is, Docker can help on both ends. So I think as these new technologies sort of gain momentum and get talked about a bunch and sort of get rapid adoption and rapid hype, then they're almost conceived to be this wall that builds up where people start to think, "Well, maybe my thing isn't modern enough," or, "Maybe my team's not modern enough," or, "Maybe I'm not moderate enough to use this." So there's too much of a hurdle to get over. And that we don't see that at all. There's always a way to get started. Even thinking about the other thing, and I'd say, one we can help, let us know, ping us, we'll be happy to chat with you, but start small, right? If you're in a large enterprise and you have a long legacy stack and a bunch of legacy apps, think about the smallest thing that you can start with, then you can begin to break off of that. And as a proof of concept even by just downloading Docker Desktop and visual studio code and just getting started with breaking off a small piece, and improve the model. And I think that's where Docker can be really helpful introducing you to this paradigm and pattern shift of containers and containerized packaging and microservices and production run time. >> And certainly any company coming out of his post pandemic is going to need to have a growth strategy that's going to be based on apps that's going to be based on the projects that they're currently working, double down on those and kind of sunset the ones that aren't or fix the legacy seems to be a major Taylor. >> The second bit is, as a company, you're going to also have to start something new or many new things to innovate for your customers and keep up with the times and the latest technology. So start to think about how you can ensure that the new things that you're doing are starting off in a containerized way using Docker to help you get there. If the legacy pieces may not be able to move as quickly or there's more required there, just think about the new things you're going to do and start new in that respect. >> Well, let's bring some customer scenarios to the table. Pretend I'm a customer, we're talking, "Hey Justin, you're looking good. "Hey, I love Docker. I love the polyglot, blah, blah, blah." Hey, you know what? And I want to get your response to this. And I say, "DevOps won't work here where we are, "it's just not a good fit." What do you say when you hear things like that? >> See my previous comment about the wall that builds up. So the answer is, and I remember hearing this by the way, about Agile years ago, when Agile development and Agile processes began to come in and take hold and take over for sort of waterfall processes, right? What I hear customers really saying is, "Man, this is really hard, this is super hard. "I don't know where to start, it's very hard. "How can you help? "Help me figure out where to start." And that is one of the things that we're very very very clearly working on. So first off we just, our docs team who do great work, just made an unbelievable update to the Docker documentation homepage, docs.docker.com. Before you were sort of met with a wall of text in a long left navigation that if you didn't know what you were doing, I would know where to go. Now you can go there and there's six very clear paths for you to follow. Do you want to get started? Are you looking for a product manual, et cetera. So if you're just looking for where to get started, just click on that. That'll give you a great start. when you download Docker Desktop, there's now an onboarding tutorial that will walk you through getting your first application started. So there are ways for you to help and get started. And then we have a great group of Docker captains Bret Fisher, many others who are also instructors, we can absolutely put you in touch with them or some online coursework that they deliver as well. So there's many resources available to you. Let us help you just get over the hump of getting started. >> And Jenny, and on the community side and Peter McKee, we're talking about some libraries are coming out, some educational stuff's coming around the corner as well. So we'll keep an eye out for that. Question for you, a personal question, can you share a proud devOps Docker moment that you could share with the audience? >> Oh wow, so many to go through. So I think a few things come to mind over the past few weeks. So for everyone that has no... we launched some exciting new pricing plans last week for Docker. So you can now get quite a bit of value for $7 a month in our pro plan. But the amount of work that the team had to do to get there was just an incredible thing. And just watching how the team have a team operated and how the team got there and just how they were turning on a dime with decisions that were being made. And I'm seeing the same thing through some of our teams that are building the image vulnerability scanning feature. I won't quote the number, but there's a very small number of people working on that feature that are creating an incredible thing for customers. So it's just how we think every day. Because we're actually almost trying to productize how we work, right? And bring that to the customer. >> Awesome, and your take on DockerCon virtual, obviously, we're all in this situation. The content's been rich on the site. You would just on the captains program earlier in the day. >> Yes. >> Doctor kept Brett's captain taught like a marathon session. Did they grill you hard or what was your experience on the captain's feed? >> I love the captain's feed. We did a run of that for the Docker birthday a few months ago with my co-worker Justin Cormack. So yes, there are two Justin's that work at Docker. I got the internal Justin Slack handle. He got the external, the community Slack Justin handle. So we split the goods there. But lots of questions about how to get started. I mean, I think there was one really good question there. Someone was saying asking for advice on just how to get started as someone who wants to be a new engineer or get into coding. And I think we're seeing a lot of this. I even have a good friend whose wife was a very successful and still is a very successful person in the marketing field. And is learning how to code and wants to do a career switch. Right? >> Yeah. >> So it's really exciting. >> DockerCon is virtual. We heard Kelsey Hightower, we heard James Governor, talk about events going to be more about group conventions getting together, whether they're small, medium, or large. What's your take on DockerCon virtual, or in general, what makes a great conference these days? Cause we'll soon get back to the physical space. But I think the genie's out of the bottle, that digital space has no boundaries. It's limitless and creativity. We're just scratching the surface. What makes a great event in your mind? >> I think so, I go back to thinking, I've probably flown 600,000 miles in the past three years. Lots of time away from my family, lots of time away from my son. And now that we're all in this situation together in terms of being sheltered in place in the global pandemic and we're executing an event that has 10 times more participation from attendees than we had in our in person event. And I sat back in my chair this morning and I was thinking, "Did I really need to fly that 600,000 miles "in the past three years?" And I think James Governor, brought it up earlier. I really think the world has changed underneath us. It's just going to be really hard to... This will all be over eventually. Hopefully we'll get to a vaccine really soon. And then folks will start to feel like world's a little bit more back to "normal" but man, I'm going to really have to ask myself like, "Do I really need to get on this airplane "and fly wherever it is? "Why can't I just do it from my home office "and give my son breakfast and take them to school, "and then see them in the evening?" Plus second, like I mentioned before in terms of access, no in person event will be able to compete ever with the type of access that this type of a platform provides. There just aren't like fairly or unfairly, lots of people just cannot travel to certain places. For lots of different reasons, monetary probably being primary. And it's not their job to figure out how to get to the thing. It's our job to figure out how to get the tech and the access and the learning to them. Right? >> Yeah (murmurs) >> So I'm super committed to that and I'll be asking the question continually. I think my internal colleagues are probably laughing now because I've been beating the drum of like, "Why do we ever have to do anything in person anymore?" Like, "Let's expand the access." >> Yeah, expand the access. And what's great too is the CEO was in multiple chat streams. So you could literally, it's almost beam in there like Star Trek. And just you can be more places that doesn't require that spatial limitations. >> Yeah. >> I think face to face will be good intimate more a party-like environment, more bonding or where social face to face is more impactful. >> We do have to figure out how to have the attendee party virtually. So, we have to figure out how to get some great electronic, or band, or something to play a virtual show, and like what the ship everybody a beverage, I don't now. >> We'll co-create with Dopper theCUBE pub and have beer for everybody if need they at some point (laughs). Justin, great insight. Thank you for coming on and sharing the roadmap update on the product and your insights into the tech as well as events. Appreciate it, thank you. >> Absolutely, thank you so much. And thanks everyone for attending. >> Congratulations, on all the work on the products Docker going to the next level. Microservices is a tailwind, but it's about productivity, simplicity. Justin, the product, head of the product for Docker, VP of product on here theCUBE, DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier. Stay with us for more continuous coverage on theCUBE track we're on now, we're streaming live. These sessions are immediately on demand. Check out the calendar. There's 43 sessions submitted by the community. Jump in there, there are own container of content. Get in there, pun intended, and chat, and meet people, and learn. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more after this break. (upbeat music)