>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with its ecosystem partners. >> Good morning, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 19 from Las Vegas, Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman, Stu, this is day three of two sets of coverage for theCUBE, and this expo hall has not gotten any less busy, tons of people still here. >> Lisa, 65,000, I'm sure the throats are a little bit raw, the feet are tired, but there's so much good information, and yeah, excited to dig in with some more of our guests. >> Yep, so much good information, in fact we have Dell EMC back, yes, we had them yesterday, there's more to talk about today, please welcome a couple of guests, we've got Nick Brackney, senior consultant, cloud product marketing, welcome to theCUBE, your first time. >> Yeah, thank you, thanks for having me. >> Lisa: And Bob Ganley, I feel like it's been about 18 hours, maybe 20. Senior consultant cloud product marketing, welcome back. >> Thank you. >> So guys, lots of news. AWS news shot out of a cannon, one of the things, though, that you can't help but talk about at any event is multicloud. Organizations, CIOs tell us on theCUBE all the time, we have inherited a multicloud, sometimes Dave Vellante calls it a crime scene, right, for various reasons, it's not necessarily strategic, but it is becoming a reality. Talk to us about what Dell EMC is seeing with your customer base, with respect, sorry, that's for Nick, to multicloud, what are you seeing, how are you helping customers navigate this? >> Yeah, I think that there's a lot of diversity in needs with our customer base, and it's really challenging for any one vendor to provide all the solutions that they need, and so that's where it's really about being able to offer them choices and giving them support to be in the right cloud for their workload, and so as we talk about this idea of cloud in the state you said, if they're in one or more clouds, it's really important that they have consistency across those clouds, because otherwise, the crime scene turns into something that's a management headache for everyone. >> Nick, wonder if we could tease that out a little bit, because consistency's important, when I think about multi-vendor in the data center for years, VMWare did a pretty good job of extracting the certain layer. I'm a little worried that we're trying to recreate some of the silos of the past in giant cloud environment, so how do we make sure we learn from the past, and because skillsets are very different, the products underneath are very different, so while there might be certain point applications that I might need, the message here at Amazon is, they've got the broadest and deepest environments, they are, if you're doing multicloud, they're going to be doing one of them, so bring us inside your customers and how we make sure that we don't end up with that crime scene that they've talked about, and all the pieces. >> I think first off, you can't look at technology in a vacuum, you really have to be thinking about people and processes. What can a business actually consume? We run into a lot of talk about containers, and containers is a great path forward to go cloud-native, and that's really easy if you're starting from scratch. If you have 1000 apps, though, that currently sit on-premises, it's really challenging to make that move, and which ones do I replatform, which ones do I lift and shift, and so I think that's one of the things we're doing with our work with VMWare Cloud Foundation, is we have one platform that can handle both virtualization and containers, so you can have a orderly progression towards cloud-native. >> Talk about the people part of it, I think we talked about this a little bit yesterday, Bob, and that's actually something that has come up in a lot of our conversations, is it's not just about the technology, for many reasons. How do you help the people, 'cause part of that's cultural, and that's really a challenging change to undergo. >> You know, I think you have to meet them where they are, right, and that's, I read an article and someone said for analytics that most CEOs still are using Excel, there are all these other really advanced analytics things, but that's what they're most comfortable with. So when we're looking at the fact that all these organizations have really standardized on VMWare, that's a really easy move for them to make, because you can take your existing skillsets, the investments you've made in the software-defined data center, and now you can extend them to the cloud, and you can take the existing best practices that you have in your data center, and you can move those to the cloud, so you're not surprised when you get there with all of the configurations and all the management, all the security challenges. >> And I want to add to that, actually, because I think one of the underlooked aspects of this whole thing, is the idea that, like you said, if you have silos of operation, then you've got challenges, and so I like to say security, for example, begins with who are you, what do you have access to? So if you have different ways of doing that on-prem, than in cloud, you're by definition at a riskier state. Same thing for compliance, same thing for automation, if you've got multiple different tools to use, it's just harder to do. So I think the consistency thing is very, very important. >> Excellent, Bob, you're the straight man for my next question here, because if you listen to our hosts here of AWS, they don't use that multicloud word. Yet the biggest conversation of discussion that I've had across with AWS, with customers, and with the ecosystem here has been Outposts, and absolutely, Amazon might not even use the hybrid term, but absolutely, it is that extension between consistency, between the public cloud and in my data center, so I'd like to hear Dell's perspective, Outposts of course, hugely important. >> Sure, I think it'd be really easy or almost trite to say that "Oh, Amazon is justifying "the fact that there's on-prem infrastructure," right, I mean Andy comes out and says "97% of IT revenue is still on-prem." I think everybody understands that. I think it comes down to the following. Investment protection, trust, and choice. And investment protection is about, organizations today have a huge investment in the way they're doing business now, and clearly VMWare is the lion's share of on-prem virtualization today, so it makes sense to extend that investment toward hybrid cloud, and there's a very natural path to do that. From the perspective of trust, when you look at on-prem infrastructure, who better to work with than Dell EMC, I mean we're number one at HTI, number one in servers, number one in storage, we know how to do on-prem, and now with Dell Technologies Cloud, we're extending that to a very consistent hybrid cloud model with AWS. And the third thing is choice, which is, Outposts is interesting because it's a completely managed service. Some organizations want that managed service. What we bring to the table with Dell Technologies Cloud is either Dell Technologies Cloud Platform, which is you manage it the way you normally manage it, or, VMWare Cloud on Dell EMC, which is a completely managed service, so we have the data centers as a service offering, we have the you manage it, mister customer, which aligns with the way they're doing business, and I think last but not least is this whole idea of cloud economics, and this concept of allowing people to pay for things by the drink, which is something that we're helping organizations do with their on-prem. >> Bob, actually, just want to make sure I understand, when we talk about that managed service, the Outposts solutions with VMWare is expected in 2020, does that then roll under the Dell Technology Cloud offering on VMWare, I just want to make sure how that is expected to go. >> Yeah, so no it doesn't, because that's essentially the Amazon hardware with the VMWare stack on it, on-premises, and what we're offering for a data center as a service solution is VMWare Cloud on Dell EMC, formerly known as Project Dimension, which is the trusted Dell EMC hardware with the verified VMWare stack, very tightly integrated, so it's cloud-like operations on-prem. >> So similar consumption models, similar design points, but different hardware stacks. >> Well, multiple consumption models, which is, I think... >> Yeah, and I was going to say, one of the other things you have to look at, too, when you're thinking about, why now, why is this happening, and I think it's because people are starting to realize, something that we've been saying for a long time, which is that cloud isn't a place, it's an operating model, and so by being able to bring that into the data center, what you're doing is you're extending it to more workloads, and I think that's great for customers, that's what they want, and that's what we're trying to build, ourselves. >> What are some of the, Bob, a question for you, aligning with Stu's question, this week, since the announcement of Outposts, what Amazon is doing there, announced last year, coming to fruition now, what are some of the things that you're hearing around the event from Dell EMC customers, are they understanding what that opportunity is for them? >> Yeah, and we've been doing this for a while, right, so VMWare Cloud on Dell EMC has been general availability since VMworld of 2019, we announced it in 2018, we've got tons of customers that are very interested, thousands of customers running within VMWare Cloud on AWS, and now looking at this data center as a service solution, as an extension to that on-prem. The thing that's cool about it is, they don't have to touch the hardware, they don't have to touch the software, it all gets managed remotely, but it's used just like on-prem infrastructure, right? So it's a great solution. >> Nick, one of the things that always gets talked about here is, there's a big shift from CAPEX to OPEX at the show, one of the things that surprises me is customers get all excited, Amazon comes out with a new feature and they say, "Hey, we're going to give you Insights, "and we're going to save you 30% "over what you were paying last year, "just because you probably weren't configuring it great." In your world, if you came to a customer and said "Oh, hey, we oversold you stuff," and this there, they'd probably be walking you out the door, but Dell's been doing some interesting things, going more cloud-native with the economic model, maybe speak a little bit to that. >> I mean, I think it's something that's great, cloud economics makes it easy to get going with a small investment and scale out, and move more quickly, be more agile, and so what we wanted to do was bring that same agility and ability to kind of innovate and not have the cost be a barrier, by then extending that across our portfolio at Dell Technologies On Demand. So that's really about whether you want to do metered usage, whether you want a subscription or whether I want to purchase hardware up front, wait till I'm going to hit the switch and turn it on and then I'll start getting billed, but then I have the idea, the same thing as cloud, where it's this idea of unlimited capacity at your fingertips, right, it's not actually unlimited, we sometimes see that even some clouds run out of space, but you're able to move quicker, you don't have to wait those three, four, six weeks for the hardware to come in, because it's already sitting there. >> Legacy businesses don't have that much time, because there are invariably in every industry, there is a born in the cloud company that is moving faster, has a different mindset, and it's probably chomping at the bit right behind them, take over that business if that legacy enterprise isn't able to work fast enough. >> Absolutely, but what really makes this really interesting is that we're still offering you more choices, right, so the thing is, there are certain workloads that break cloud economics, whether it's massive storage that, I always tell people "You spin up and spin down VMs, "you never delete data because that is super valuable "to your business," or, we find certain workloads that are steady state, right, cloud is really great when you're scaling up, scaling down, when you're flipping off the switch of the lights when you leave the room. If you leave it on all the time, it can add up, and so what's really nice, not just about bringing the cloud economics into the data center, but by bringing that consistent experience across both the data center and your cloud, is now you can let the business requirements and the application requirements determine what the best place to put the workload is. >> Sorry, so Bob, one of the big themes at this show is transformation, you've got it on your hat. When we talk about the cloud-native space, we always said, "They were the cloud-native companies, "they were born in the cloud." We said, "There are many companies now "that are becoming born again in the cloud." Bring us inside a little bit, what you're seeing, the discussion point is you just can't incrementally get there, it requires executive management, involvement, and it is a radical change in the way you build your applications, and that has a ripple effect through everything that you do. >> It absolutely does. When you think about it, there is an evolution happening in application architectures, and that evolution is from physical to virtual, to now infrastructure's a service to add additional efficiency and automation, orchestration, now container as a service, as we see organizations moving toward cloud-native and containers, to platform as a service and function as a service. And when you think about that, organizations need to bring their existing investments and virtualized applications forward as they're adding on containers, as they're looking at this next generation cloud-native. So we believe the right solution is to preserve that investment and bring that forward so we've been adding cloud-native standard upstream Kubernetes distribution to our Dell Technologies Cloud Platform, and that allows organization to extend our investment, so that's one thing is that architectural evolution. The second thing is what I call the operational evolution that's happening as well. And the operational evolution is, cloud has revolutionized the way people look at IT because it's so easy to use. So what we're doing is bringing that operational evolution to the data center as well, where we're completely integrating the on-prem infrastructure so that you can life cycle manage it in a automated fashion, and we're doing that both for infrastructure as a service and now for container as a service for Kubernetes. So we're excited about both the architectural and operational evolution. >> And Nick, I'd be curious, your viewpoint of this show, it's really a interesting mix of, you've got enterprise, you've got developers, you've got everything in between and personas, so bring us inside some of the conversations you're having, how you have worked with some of those different personas. >> Well I think it's really interesting, 'cause the shift towards containers means a shift towards DevOps, and when you're looking at that, I think what's lost on the way is, when I talk to my friends who've spent a lot of time as ITOps folks, they think very differently than developers. When something goes wrong, their immediate reaction is, "Please roll it back." Whereas a developer thinks "Hold on, let me add some more "code to this, and we'll fix it that way." And so I think the challenge right now is, the burden is shifting, and it's shifting towards developers and one of the things, I think, with our solution and hopefully project-specific with VMWare, what's coming down the path, where they're injecting containers into vSphere, all of that, hopefully what's going to come out of that is, you're going to make the job a little bit easier for developers, 'cause when you start doing DevOps, or god forbid DevSecOps, and you're burdening these people with all these responsibilities, how are they still going to innovate? That's really a big challenge, and I think, when I'm at a show like this, I hear it from both sides, so it's really fascinating to hear the different perspectives, they're not necessarily aligned. >> Yeah, it just, the quick note on that, in Warner's keynote, he puts out the giant thing on the board, "Everything fails all the time." That's not what the enterprise was used to in the old world, and that's what that transformation is, a little bit uncomfortable for many of 'em. >> And speaking of being uncomfortable, Bob, you talked about cloud, especially next-gen cloud, brings up opportunity, a lot of opportunity, but with it comes architectural change, as you mentioned, operational change, but cultural change. Final questions and thoughts, Nick, from you, what are in the respect of the opportunity but those changes, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you're seeing enterprises make, and how can they avoid those? >> Yeah, so I mean the first thing is, I think that people having sweeping mandates. When people say cloud first as a mandate, I think what they're missing in that is, there's so much exuberance, they're not thinking through, what does the workload need, what does the business need, and cloud should absolutely be a big part of anyone's strategy moving forward, but you need to be thoughtful about what you do, and Pat Gelsinger talks about, there's three laws, the laws of physics, the laws of economics, and the laws of the land. I always joke around, we still haven't managed to find a way to travel faster than the speed of light, so latency is always an issue. And then the second thing is, around the shared responsibility model. When you move to infrastructure as a service, people think, "Wow, they're taking care of everything, "this is super easy." And what they haven't always figured out is that they're still on the hook for a lot of things from a security perspective, from a manageability perspective, from a data protection perspective, and if you fail to actually address those, then you might run into some problems down the line. >> Guys, good stuff, always so much to talk about, thank you both for joining Stu and me on the program today, Bob, I'll probably see you again at the airport tonight. >> No doubt. >> We appreciate you joining Stu and me. And, stick around on theCUBE, 'cause later today, Andy Jassy, AWS CEO is going to be on. But for now, I'm Lisa Martin for Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>>LA from Las Vegas. It's the cube hovering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon web services and along with its ecosystem partners. >>Good morning. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 19 from Las Vegas. Lisa Martin with Stu Miniman. Stu, this is day three of two sets of coverage for the cube and this expo hall has not gotten any less busy. Tons of people still here. >>Lisa, 65,000 I'm sure the throats are a little bit raw. The feet are tired, but there's so much good information and yeah, excited to dig in with some more of our guests. >>Yeah, so much good information that we have. Dell EMC back. Yes, we had them yesterday. There's more to talk about today. Please welcome a couple of guests. We've got Nick Brackney, senior consultant cloud at product marketing. Welcome to the queue of your first time. Happy to have you and Bob Ganley. I feel like it's been about 18 hours, maybe 20 senior consultant cloud product marketing. Welcome back. Thank you. So guys, lots of news like AWS news shot out of the cannon. One of the things though that you can't help but talk about at any event is multi-cloud organizations. The CIO is tell us on the cube all the time. We've inherited the multi-cloud. Sometimes Dave Valentic calls it a crime scene, right? For various reasons. It's not necessarily strategic, but it is becoming a reality. Talk to us about what Dell EMC is seeing. What your customer base with respect. Sorry, that's for Nick multi-cloud. Why, what are you seeing? How are you helping customers navigate it? >>Yeah, I think that, uh, there's a lot of diversity in needs for their customer base and it's really challenging for any one vendor to provide all of the solutions that they need. And so that's, that's where it's really about being able to offer them choices and giving them support to be in the right cloud for their workload. And so as we talk about this idea of cloud in the state, you said, you know, if, if they're in one or more clouds, it's really important that they have consistency across those clouds because otherwise the crime scene turns into something that's a, a management headache for everyone. >>Yeah. Nick, I wonder if we could tease that out a little bit because consistency's important. You know, when I think about, you know, multi-vendor in the data center for years, you know, VMware did a pretty good job of abstracting a certain layer. I'm a little worried that we're trying to recreate some of the silos of the past, you know, in giant cloud environment. So how do we make sure we learn from the past? And because skill sets are very different, the products underneath are very different. So while there might be certain point applications that I might need, the message here at Amazon is, you know, they've got the broadest and deepest environments they are. If you're doing multi-cloud, they're gum. Do one of them. So, you know, bring us inside your customers and how we make sure that we don't end up with that crime scene that Dave talked about and uh, all the pieces. >>I think first off, you can't look at technology in a vacuum. You really have to be thinking about people and processes. What can a business actually consume? You know, we run into a lot of talking about containers and containers is a great path forward to go cloud native. And that's really easy if you're starting from scratch. If you have a thousand apps though that currently sit in on premises, it's really challenging to make that move. And you know, which ones do I replatform, which ones do I lift and shift. And so I think that's one of the things we're doing with, you know, I work with VMR cloud foundation is we have one platform that can handle both virtualization and containers so you can have a orderly progression towards cloud native. >>What about the people part of it? I think we talked about this a little bit yesterday, Bob, and that's actually something that has come up in a lot of our conversations is it's not just about the technology for many reasons. How do you help the people? Because part of that's cultural and that's a really a challenging change to undergo. >>You know, I think you have to meet them where they are. Right? And that's, I read an article and someone said that the, uh, for, for analytics that most CEOs still are using Excel. There are all these other really advanced analytics things, but that's what they're most comfortable with. So when we look at the, the fact that all these organizations have really standardized on VMware, that's a really easy move for them to make because you can take your existing skill sets, you know, the, the investments you've made in the software defined data center and now you can extend them to the cloud and you can take the existing best practices that you have in your data center and you can move those to the cloud. So you're not surprised when you get there with all of the configurations and all the management, all the security challenges. >>And I want to add to that actually because I think one of the underlooked aspects of this whole thing is the idea that, like you said, if you have silos of operation, then you've got challenges. And so I like to say security for example, begins with who are you, what do you have access to? So if you have different ways of doing that on prem than in cloud, you're by definition at a riskier state. Same thing for compliance. Same thing for automation. If you've got multiple different tools to use, you know, it's just harder to do. So I think, you know, the consistency thing is very, very important. >>Excellent. Bob, you, you're the straight man for my next question here because, uh, if you listen to our hosts here of AWS, they don't use that multi-cloud word yet. The biggest conversation of discussion that I've had across with AWS with customers and uh, you know, with the ecosystem here has been outposts and absolutely Amazon might not even use the hybrid term, but absolutely is that extension between inconsistency between the public cloud and in my data center. So I'd like to hear, you know, Dell Dell's perspective outposts of course, hugely important. Sure. >>You know, I think it'd be really easy or almost trite to say that, Oh, you know, Amazon is justifying the fact that there's on prime infrastructure, right? I mean, Andy comes out and says 97% of it revenue still on prem. I think, you know, everybody understands that. I think it comes down to the following investment protection, trust and choice and investment protection is about organizations today have a huge investment in the way they're doing business now and clearly VM where's the lion's share of on-prem virtualization today? So it makes sense to extend that investment toward hybrid cloud and there's a very natural path to do that from the perspective of trust. When you look at on prem infrastructure, who better to work with in Dell EMC? I mean we're number one in HCI, number one in servers, number one in storage, we know how to do on prem and now with Dell technologies cloud we're extending that to a very consistent hybrid cloud model with AWS. >>Uh, and the third thing is, you know, choice, which is outposts is interesting because it's a completely managed service. Some organizations want that managed service. What we bring to the table with Dell technologies cloud is either Delta technologies, cloud platform, which is you manage it the way you normally manage it or the VMware cloud on Dell EMC, which is a completely managed service. So we have the data center as a service offering. We have the you manage it mr customer, which aligns with the way they're doing business. And I think last but not least is this whole idea of cloud economics and this concept of allowing people to pay for things by the drink, which is something that, you know, we're helping organizations do with their on premise. >>Bob actually just want to make sure I understand what you're talk about that managed service, the outpost solutions with VMware's expected in 2020. Does that then roll under the Dell technology cloud offering on E on VMware? I just want to make sure how I ended, how that is expected to. >>Yeah. So no it doesn't because that's essentially um, the Amazon hardware with the VMware stack on it on premises. And what we're offering for a data center as a service solution is a VMware cloud on Dell EMC, formerly known as project dimension, which is, you know, the trusted Dell EMC hardware with the verified VMware stack very tightly integrated. So it's cloud like operations on premise. >>Yeah. Yeah. So similar consumption models, similar design points, but different hardware stacks, >>consumption models, which is I think, yeah, I was going to say one of the other things you have to look at too when you're thinking about why now, why is this happening? And I think it's because people are starting to realize something that we've been saying for a long time, which is that cloud isn't a place, it's an operating model. And so by being able to bring that into the data center, what you're doing is you're extending it to more workloads. And I think that's great for customers. That's what they want and that's what we're trying to build ourselves. >>Bob, a question for you, some of the aligning with Stewart's question this week since the announcement of outpost, what Amazon is doing announced last year coming to fruition now, what are some of the things that you're hearing around the event from Dell EMC customers? Are they, are they understanding what that opportunity is for them? Yeah, >>we've been doing this for a while, right? So, um, VMware cloud on Dell EMC has been general availability since VM world of 2019 we announced it in 2018 we've got tons of customers that are very interested, thousands of customers running, um, within VMware cloud on AWS and now looking at this data center as a service solution, as an extension to that on prem. The thing that's cool about it is that they don't have to touch the hardware, they don't have to touch the software. It all gets managed remotely, but it's used just like on prem infrastructure. Right. So it's a great solution. >>Yup. Nica what one of the things that always gets talked about here is there's a big shift from apex to AFEX, uh, at this show. Uh, one of the things that surprises me as customers get all excited, Amazon comes out with new feature and they said, Hey, we're going to give you insight and we're going to save you 30% over what you were paying last year. Just because you probably weren't configuring it crate in your world. If you came to a customer and said, Oh, Hey, we oversold you stuff in this there, they'd probably be walking you out the door. But Dell has been doing some interesting things, going more cloud native with the economic model. Maybe speak a little bit to that. >>I have, I mean, I think it's something that's great. You know, cloud economics makes it easy to get going with a, with a small investment and scale out and, and, uh, move more quickly when be more agile. And so what we wanted to do was bring that same agility and ability to kind of innovate, uh, and, and not have the cost be a barrier by then extending that across our portfolio at Dell technologies on demand. So that's really about, you know, whether you want to do metered usage, whether you want a subscription or whether, you know, I want to, uh, you know, purchase hardware upfront, wait till I'm going to hit the switch and turn it on, and then I'll start getting built. But then I have the idea, the same thing as cloud, where it's, it's this idea of unlimited capacity at your fingertips, right? It's, it's not actually unlimited. We sometimes see that some, even some clouds run out of space, but it's, it's, you're able to move quicker. You don't have to wait those three, four, six weeks for the hardware to come in because it's already sitting there. >>Well, in legacy businesses don't have that much time because there are invariably in every industry, there is a born in the cloud company that is moving faster, has a different mindset and it's probably chomping at the bit right behind them. Take over that business. If that legacy enterprise isn't able to work fast enough. >>Absolutely. But what really makes us really interesting is that we're still offering you more choices, right? So the thing is, is there are certain workloads that break cloud economics, whether it's massive storage that, you know, I always tell people, you spin up and spin down VMs, you never delete data because that is super valuable to your business or you know, uh, we find certain workloads that are steady state, right? You know, cloud is really great when you're scaling up. Scaling down, when you're, you know, flipping off the switch of the lights. When you leave the room, if you leave it on all the time it can add up. And so it's really nice not just about bringing the cloud economics into the data center, but by bringing that consistent experience across both the data center and your cloud is now you can let the business requirements and the application requirements determine what the best place to put the workload is. Yeah. >>So, sorry. So Bob won, one of the big themes at this show is transformation. You've got it on your hat. When we talk about the cloud native space, uh, we were said there were the cloud native companies, they were born in the cloud. We said there are many companies that are becoming born again in the cloud. You know, bring us inside a little bit. What you're seeing, just the discussion point is you just can't incrementally get there. It requires, you know, executive management, uh, involvement and you know, it is a radical change in the way you build your application. And that has a ripple effect through everything that you do. >>Yeah, absolutely does. When you think about it, there is an evolution happening in application architectures and that evolution is from physical to virtual to now infrastructure is a service to add the additional efficiency and automation orchestration. Now container as a service, as we see organizations moving toward cloud native and containers to platform as a service and function as a service. And when you think about that, organizations need to bring their existing investments in virtualized applications forward as they're adding on containers as they're looking at this next generation cloud native. So we believe the right solution is to preserve that investment and bring that forward. So we've been adding cloud native, um, you know, standard upstream Kubernetes distribution to, uh, our Dell technologies cloud platform and that allows organizations to extend our investments. So that's one thing is that architectural evolution. The second thing is what I call the operational evolution that's happening as well. And the operational evolution is, you know, cloud has revolutionized the way people look at it because it's so easy to use. So what we're doing is bringing that operational evolution to the data center as well, where we're completely integrating the on prem infrastructure so that you can life cycle management in an automated fashion. And we're doing that both for infrastructure as a service and now for container as a service for Cooper daddy's. So we're excited about both the architectural and operational evolution. >>Well, and Nick, I'd be curious your viewpoint of this show, it's really a interesting mix of you've got enterprise, you've got developers, you've got everything in between and personas. So brick is inside something for the conversations you're having, how you worked with some of those different personas. >>I think it's really interesting because the shift towards containers means a shift dev ops. And when you're looking at that, uh, I think what's lost in the way is when I went and talked to my friends who spent a lot of time as it ops folks, they think very differently than developers. When something goes wrong, their immediate reaction is, please roll it back. Whereas a developer, thanks, hold on, let me add some more code to this and we'll fix it that way. And so I think the challenge right now is, is the burden is shifting and it's shifting towards developers. And one of the things I think with our solution and you know, hopefully, you know, project Pacific with VMware, what's coming down the path where they're, they're injecting, you know, containers into vSphere, all of that. Hopefully what's going to come out of that is, is you're going to make the job a little bit easier for developers because when you start doing dev ops or God forbid dev sec ops, and you're burdening these people with all these responsibilities, how are they still gonna innovate? That's really a big challenge. And I think when I'm at a show like this, I hear it from both sides. So it's really fascinating to hear the different perspectives and they're not necessarily aligned. >>Yeah, it's just that the, the quick note on that, in order's keynote, he puts out the giant thing on the board. You know, everything fails all the time. That's not what the enterprise was used to in the old world. And that's what that transformation is a little bit uncomfortable for many of them. >>And speaking of being uncomfortable, you know, Bobby talked about cloud, especially next gen cloud brings up opportunities, a lot of opportunity, but with it comes architectural change as you mentioned, uh, operational change but cultural change. Final questions and thoughts, Nick, from you, what are in the respect of the opportunity, but those changes, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you're seeing enterprises make and how can they avoid those? >>Yeah, so I mean, the first thing is I think that people have been sweeping mandates. When people say cloud first as a mandate, I think what they're, what they're missing in that is there's so much exuberance. They're not thinking through what is the workload need, what does the business need? And cloud should absolutely be a big part of anyone's strategy moving forward. But you need to be thoughtful about what you do. And, and uh, Pat Pat Gelsinger talks about there's three laws, the laws of physics, the laws of economics and then the laws of the land. You know, I always joke around, we still haven't managed to find a way to travel faster than the speed of light. So latency is always an issue. And then the second thing is, uh, around the shared responsibility model. You know, when you move to infrastructure as a service, people think, wow, I, I, they're taking care of everything. This is super easy. And what they haven't always figured out is that they're still on the hook for a lot of things from a security perspective, from a manageability perspective, from a data protection perspective. And if you fail to actually address those, then you might run into some problems down the line. >>Guys, good stuff. Always so much to talk about. Thank you both for joining Stu and me on the program today. Bob, I probably see again at the airport tonight. We appreciate you joining soon and stick around on the QTC is later today. Andy Jassy AWS CEO is going to be on, but for now, I'm Lisa Martin for. Thanks for watching the cube.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019, brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with it's Ecosystem partners. >> Good morning, welcome back to theCUBE, Lisa Martin live at AWS re:Invent. Day two of theCUBEs coverage. I am with Stu Miniman, and Stu and I are pleased to welcome a couple of guests of our own from Dell EMC. To my left is Joe CaraDonna, the VP of engineering technology. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> And then one of our alumni, we've got Bob Ganley, senior consultant Cloud product marketing. Welcome back. >> Thank you. Glad to be here. >> So guys, here we are at AWS re:Invent, with 60 plus thousand people all over the strip here. We know Dell technologies, Dell EMC well, big friends of theCUBE. Joe, Dell, AWS, what's going on? You guys are here. >> Apparently Cloud is a thing. >> Lisa: I heard that. I think I've seen the sticker. >> Yeah, you've seen the sticker. Over the last year, we've been busy rolling out new Cloud services. I mean, look around right. It's important to our customers that we can deliver hybrid Cloud solutions to them, that are meaningful to them and to help them get their workloads to the Cloud. and to be able to migrate, move between Clouds and data center. >> Yeah, Joe, maybe expand a little on this. So we watched when VMware made the partnership announcement with AWS a couple of years ago, which sent ripples through the industry. And VMware has had a large presence at this show, we've seen a lot of announcements and movements with Dell, Dell technologies, Dell EMC over the last year or more, but this is the first year that Dell's actually exhibiting here so help explain for our audience a little bit that dynamic with leveraging VMware and also what Dell is bringing to this ecosystem. >> Yeah, sure. I mean, the way we think about it is, it's really a multi-level stack, you have the application layer and you've got the data layer. So applications with VMware, we're focusing on enabling applications, whether they're VMs or containerized now, being able to move those to the Cloud, move them on-prem. Same is true for data. And data is actually the harder part of the problem, in my opinion, all right, because data has gravity. It's just big, it's hard to move, the principles of data in the Cloud are the same as they are on-prem where you still have to provide the high availability and the accessibility and the security and the capacity and scale in the Cloud as you would in the data center. And what we've been doing here, with our Cloud storage services is bringing essentially our range as a service, to the Cloud. >> You talked about some of those changes and absolutely, data's at the center of everything. We've been saying for a long time, you talk about digital transformation, the outcome of that is if you're not letting data drive your decisions, you really haven't been successful there. One of the biggest challenges beyond data, is the applications. Customers have hundreds, if not thousands of applications, they're building new ones, they're migrating, they're breaking them apart in to micro services, Bob, help us understand where that intersects with what you're talking with customers about. >> Yeah, absolutely. So one of the reasons we're here is most organizations today are leveraging some public Cloud services and at the same time, most organizations have investment on-prem infrastructure. I think we heard Andy say in the keynote yesterday, 97% of all enterprise IT spend is on-prem right now. So organizations are trying to figure out how to make those work together. And that's really what we're here to do, is help organizations figure out how to make their big on-prem investment work well with their public Cloud investment and AWS is clearly the leader there in that space and so we're here to work with our customers in order to help them really bridge that gap between public Cloud and private Cloud and make them work together well. >> And Bob, where does that conversation start? Because one of the other things that Andy talked about is that, his four essentials for transformation is it's got to start at the senior executive level, strategic vision that's aggressively pushed down throughout the organization. Are you now having conversations at that CEO level for them to really include this value of data and apps as part of an overall business transformation? >> Yeah, definitely. If you think about it, it's all about people, process and technology. And technology is only a small part of it. And I think that's the important thing about what Andy was saying in the keynote yesterday, is that it's about making sure that Cloud as an operating model, not as a place, but as an operating model, gets adopted across your organization. And that has to have senior leadership investment. Yeah, they have to be invested in this move, but both from an applications and a data perspective. >> Yeah and on the technology side of things, you want to be able to give the developers the tools they need so they can develop those Cloud native applications. So in the on-prem sphere, we have ECS or objects stored kind of technology for bringing an object to data center. We're plugging into kubernetes every which way. With VMware, we're developing CSI drivers across our storage portfolio to be able to plug in to these kubernetes environments. And we're enabling for data and application migration across environments, as well. >> In many ways, Joe, we've seen, there's a really disaggregation of how people build things. When I talk to the developer community, hybrid is the model that many of them are using, but it used to be nice in the old days as, I bought a box and it had all the feature checklist that I wanted. Now, I need to put together all these micro services. So help us understand some of those services that you provide everywhere. >> It's a horror, right? What did Andy Jassy say yesterday, these are your father's data requirements, right? And he's right about that because what's happening with data is it's sprawling. You have them in data centers, you have them in Cloud, you have them in multiple Clouds, you have them in SaaS portals, you have it on file services and blog services, and how do you wrap your arms around that? And especially when you start looking at use cases like data analytics and you start thinking about data sets, how do you manage data sets? Maybe I had my data born on-prem and I want to do my analytics in the Cloud, how do I even wrap my hands around data sets? So we have a product called ClarityNow, that in fact does that. It indexes billions of files and objects across our storage, across our Cloud services, across Amazon S3, across third party NAS systems as well, and you can get a single pane of glass to see where your files and your objects reside. You can tag it, you can search upon it, you can create data sets based on search, on your tags and your meta data, to then operate on those data sets. So the rules, data's being used in new and different ways, they need new ways to manage it and these are some of the solutions that we're bringing to market. >> You mentioned Multicloud, I wanted to chat about that. We know it's not a word that AWS likes. >> Joe: Can we say that here? >> Yeah. >> On theCUBE, absolutely. >> This is theCUBE, exactly. But the reality is, as we talked to, and Stu knows as well, most CIO's say, we've inherited this mess, of Multicloud, often symptomatically, not as a strategic direction, give us an overview of what Dell EMC, I'll ask you both the same question, and Joe we'll start with you, how are you helping customers address, whether they've inherited Multicloud through M&A acquisition, or developer choice, how do they really extract value from that data, that they know, there's business insights in here that can allow us to differentiate our business, but we have all of this sprawl. What's the answer for that? >> Well some of that is ClarityNow, that I was talking about, the ability to see your data, because half the battle is seeing your data, being able to see it. Also, with Multicloud, whether you inherit it, or whether it was intentional or not, we're setting out our solutions are Multicloud, you can run them anywhere. But not only that, the twist to Multicloud is, well what if you made your data available to multiple clouds simultaneously. And why would you want to do that? One reason we want to go that path is maybe you want to use the best services from each Cloud. But you don't want to move your data around because again it has gravity and it takes time and money and resources to do that. Through our Cloud Storage Services, it's centralized, and you can attach to whatever Cloud you want. So some of that is around taking advantage of that, some of that's around data brokering, we heard Andy talk a little bit about that this morning, where you may have data sets that you want to sell to your customers and they may be running in other Clouds. And some of that is, you may want to switch Clouds due to the services they have, the economics or perhaps even the requirements of your applications. >> Yeah, from an application perspective, for us it's really about consistency, right. So we say it's consistency in two ways, consistent infrastructure and consistent operations. And so we talk about consistent infrastructure, we want to help organizations be able to take that virtual machine and move it. Where is the best place for it, right? So it's about right workload, right Cloud. And we talk about application portfolio analysis and helping organizations figure out, what is that set of applications that they have? What should they do with those applications? Which ones are right to move to Cloud? Which ones should they not invest in and kind of let retire? And so that's another aspect of that people and process thing that we talked about earlier. Helping organizations look at that application portfolio and then take that consistent infrastructure, use that multiple Clouds with that, and then consistent operations which is a single management control plane that can help you have consistency between the way you run your on-prem and the way you run your public Cloud. >> Yeah and give them the freedom to choose the Cloud they want for the workload they want. >> And is that the data level where the differences between, we'll say the public Cloud files, is most exposed? Is it at the data layer where the differences in, we'll say AWS versus it's competitors, is that where the differences between the features and the functionalities is most exposed? >> I think so. I think that one place that we think public Cloud is weak, is file. File workloads. And one of the things we're trying to do is bring consistent file, whether it's on-prem or across the Clouds, through with our Cloud Storage Services at Isilon and the scale and the throughput that those systems can provide, bringing consistent file services, whether it's NFS, SNB or even HDFS or the snapshotting capabilities. And as equally as important, that native replication capabilities across these environments. >> I wonder if we could talk a little bit about some of the organizational changes, the transformation was one of the key takeaways that Andy Jassy was talking about in his three hour keynote yesterday. We've watched for more than a decade now, the role of IT compared to the business, and we know that it's not only does IT need to respond to the business but that data discussion we have better be driving the business, because if you're not leveraging your data, your competition definitely will. I want to get your opinion as to just the positions of power and who you're talking to and what are some of the successful companies doing to help lead this type of change. >> I'll go. I think IT and business are coming together more, the lines are blurring there. And IT's being stretched in to new directions now, they have to serve customers with new demands. So whether it's managing storage or AIs or servers, or VMware environments now being pushed in to things like now managing analytics, kind of environment, right? And all the tools associated with that. Whether it's Cassandra or TetraFlow, being able to stretch, and being able to provide the kind of services that the business requires. >> And up the stack too. >> Yeah. When you talk about the fact that business and IT need to work together, it's kind of like an obvious statement, right? What that really means is, that there needs to be a way to help organizations get to responding more quickly to what the needs of the business are. It's about agility. It's about the ability to respond quickly. So you see organizations moving from waterfall process for development to Agile and you see that being supported by Cloud native architectures, and organizations need to take and be able to do that in a way that preserves the investments that they have today. So most organizations are on this journey from physical to virtual to infrastructure as a service, to container as a service and beyond and they don't want to throw away those investments that they have in existing virtualization, in existing skill sets, and so what we're really doing is helping organizations move to that place where they can adopt Cloud Native while bringing forward those investments they have in traditional infrastructure. So we think that's helping organizations work better together, both from a technology and a business perspective. >> And as far as the kind of people we talk to, I mean data science is growing and growing, data science is becoming more part of the conversation. CIO's as well, right? I mean behind all this, again, is that data that we keep coming back to. You have to ensure the governance of that data, right? That it's being controlled and it's within compliance. >> So we started off the conversation talking about that this was Dell's first year. So 60, 65,000 here. There's a sprawling ecosystem. One of the largest ones here. What do you want to really emphasize? Give us the final takeaway as to how people should think about Dell Technologies in the Cloud ecosystem. >> Yeah, I think, we know our customers want to be able to leverage the Cloud, the kind of conversation we're having with customers is more around, how can I use the Cloud to optimize my business? And that's going to vary on a workload by workload basis. We feel it's our job to arm the customer with the tools they need, right? To be able to have hybrid Cloud architectures, to be able to have the freedom to run the applications wherever they want, consume infrastructure in a way they want it to be consumed, and we're there for them. >> Yeah, I think it's really about a couple of things. One is trust, and the other one is choice. So if you think about it, organizations need to move in to this Cloud world in a way that brings forward those investments that they've made. Dell EMC is the number one provider of hyper-converged infrastructure, of servers, and we can help organizations understand that Cloud operating model, and how to bring the private Cloud investments that they have today forward to work well with the public Cloud investments that they're making, clearly. So it's really about trust and choice of how they implement. >> Trust is a big deal. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, we're the number one storage vendor for a reason. Our customers trust us with their data. >> Well Joe, Bob, thank you so much for joining me and Stu on theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And sharing with us what you guys are doing at Dell, AWS. The trust and the choice that you're delivering to your customers, we'll see you at Dell Technologies World. >> We'll see you here next year. >> All right. You got it. All right. For our guests and for Stu Miniman, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching theCUBE, day two of our coverage of AWS re:Invent '19. Thanks for watching. (upbeat, title music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage, it's theCUBE, covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware and it's Ecosystem partners. >> Hey welcome back, everyone. Live CUBE coverage here at VMworld 2019. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, hosts of theCUBE here in two sets. We're on the main set. The set over there, Dave Vellante's hosting. This morning, we have two great guests here. Bob Ganley, who's Cloud Marketing at Dell EMC. John Allwright, Director of Product Marketing at Pivotal. We got operators, we got development experts here. Guys, thanks for joining us. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, excited to be here. >> John: Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, it's great to be here. >> So the show, VMworld, we're obviously an operators' show, one of the things that's really interesting is the Dell EMC equation of VMware on Dell EMC. You're seeing the piece parts coming together. The Pivotal acquisition, you're in Product Marketing over there, so I'm sure you got to perspective on the dots that connect there, even though the acquisition's a couple days old. Let's start with Dell EMC. Michael was on yesterday. I said, "You guys were number one in all the metric quadrants." You know, this, that, servers. As you've got to pull that together on-premises, where the Data Center is nearly going away and the Edge has emerged, you got to have an operating model that's got to be cloud. And that's really seems to be the focus, clearly. >> Yeah, absolutely. What we see is that customers today are trying to deliver value through applications. And it's all about apps, because apps is where that value gets delivered to the customer. So, as organizations are trying to deliver those applications, the question becomes what's the best place to put the app. So right workload, right cloud is a big thing for us. Clearly, organizations have been adopting public cloud in droves. What we see is that they're trying to figure out how do they get that public cloud infrastructure to work with what they're doing on-prem. What we're bringing to the table, is a solution called Dell Technologies Cloud. We're super-excited about bringing together private and public in a hybrid cloud solution in a way that provides consistent infrastructure and consistent operations. As you guys have seen, everybody's excited about next-generation apps, right? So now, where are we going with next generation apps? That's really what this show is all about. >> Bob, I'm so glad you brought up the apps. Because we often, my background's infrastructure, and we get down in the weeds as to what's doing, and, like, oh we architected this better and chipsets and all these things there. But it's that modernization that customers are going through. Can you pick us through, what are the patterns you're seeing? One term I'd used for a while is, modernize the platform and then modernize the apps. Is that it? Containerization, where do all these pieces fit, again, when they're talking about their application development? >> It's interesting because every customer's on an application journey. We all started in physical, right? I was a software developer right out of college. Working with physical infrastructure is where it's at. Organizations have clearly adopted virtualization. And most organizations are now trying to pivot toward how do I get more efficiency, more agility, for my virtualized applications. That's really where infrastructure as a service, and IT as a service is adding a lot of value today. So, the question becomes, as I'm working with my existing virtualized applications, and now looking at next generation apps and developing those, how am I going to bring that along? We see this physical to virtual to infrastructure as a service, to container as a service, as being a very logical progression for customers. >> Well, certainly it's absolutely standardized now. Containers, since Docker hit the scene. Containers had been around for a while. You talk to anyone with development, oh, containers, put a wrapper around things, it's kind of a known concept. John, I want to get your thoughts, because one of the things about Dev Ops in the Cloud 1.0 was, clearly the cloud native world was obvious. If you were a startup, you were born in the cloud, it was all goodness. You didn't have on-premise to deal with. You just did everything. The operator was the developer, right? So, Cloud 2.0 is a little bit more complicated. And we're seeing that the trend where the infrastructure has to be enabling for the developer, and that has been a key thing. But what's interesting is, in Cloud 2.0, as we're calling it, the world is flipped upside down. It used to be the infrastructure would dictate what the application developers could do, based upon what the capabilities were, to now the application developers dictating resources below them to be on demand, or elastic, or one cloud, two clouds. So the application's dictating configuration and architecture, either dynamically or specifically. Not limited to what is rolled out. So this relationship between infrastructure and developers is evolving very quickly. I would love to get your thoughts on how you see it. You've been around the block on this point. >> I mean, Pat had a great slide in the Keynote, which kind of put Kubernetes as in between developers and operators. I think the way that is evidenced itself is that Kubernetes has been something that's been driven down from developers. They're saying, this is the infrastructure that we want to run our applications. Working at the levels that typically infrastructure is provided. There's too much work for them to do. So in some cases, they were packaging up Kubernetes with their applications and saying to the infrastructure folks, hey, deploy this. I think we've now kind of crossed the point where Infrastructure go, well this is a thing and I need to provide that. So things like Project Pacific, or a recognition that, yeah, why not bake that into the infrastructure? So Kubernetes is kind of Dev Ops, materialized in a product. >> Yeah, it was interesting. I had an interview yesterday. We've been watching Kubernetes since the beginning. But the way they described it is, Kubernetes is really the new server. It's like I can spin up that environment in a much shorter period of time. Which, of course, was part of the value proposition of going to containerization. Project Pacific is, you're going to take your install base of VMs and give them that bridge to the future. Pivotal also, if I wanted to just do it in the public cloud, you've got the options there. Correct? What I'd love, John, if you can help tease us out the Kubernetes message. If I take VMware plus Pivotal and Heptio and all the pieces, help us sort through the fog a little bit. >> The thing that's become very clear to us at Pivotal and, I think, in the industry is that Kubernetes is now becoming an expected default. Whereas maybe before it was VMs, that's the basic foundation that I'm going to build my workers, my applications on. Now it's Kubernetes. And whether I'm building custom applications or a vendor is supplying me with something as a container images in a pod, that's kind of the default. So the big thing about the announcers from the Keynote was that's really what we're working to. In something like Tanzu Mission Control, now distracts you away from necessarily where those Kubernetes are appearing, whether that is on-prem or in the public cloud. Let's you work across a foundation that actually appears in a lot of different places. >> The impact of Mission Control. Just drill down on that for a second, because that demo was pretty sweet. Just take a minute to explain the relevance of having the view of all those Kubernetes clusters across the cloud and what it means to the operator. Because that was an interesting demo. >> Yeah, so the analogy I use, and it doesn't fit exactly, but it's kind of like power stations in a grid. With a lot of products, things like SoS with PKS, have been creating the power stations that let you run Kubernetes, but the power is really in having the grid. So Mission Control gives you the grid. It lets you do operations across Kubernetes wherever they are. But also do things like migrations. We talk about Enterprise PKS being a really good start point of getting into this new world of Pacific and everything. And it's actually Tanzu Mission Control that enables that. It's like VMotion for containers, almost. >> It is such an important piece, because every platform is going to have Kubernetes, and while VMware is going to have some Kubernetes, it's not going to have all Kubernetes. So if I've got some in Amazon, and I'm using Anthos over here, we'd love to have that management platform that gives me visibility. Bob, I just want to bring it back to you here. In the industry, we've had time and time again where we want to manage a heterogeneous environment. It's been Don Quixote chasing after that dream. Tell us how do we pull that together and where do we live? >> I think you guys were talking about the fact that developers expect this Kubernetes dial tone today, and that's driving infrastructure choices. One of the things that we need to do as infrastructure people is make that real. In other words, it's all well and good to develop an application on a Kubernetes infrastructure, but now how do I turn that into a production service that is helping me drive revenue, for example. What we need to do is operationalize that, in a way that can bring that to life, and bring that to life in a production way. That's really where we're going with PKS, on VCF, on VxRail. So PKS on VCF allows organizations to actually automated fashion deploy a Kubernetes cluster. So what that does is allow organizations to now suddenly bring their investment in what they've been doing in virtualization today, and bring that toward this next generation containerized-based applications. This is key because in order to, for example, stand up a Kubternetes cluster, and then make that into a production service, there's just tons of moving parts. So why not automate that in a fashion that essentially takes all of the stress out of that Day Zero. And then, furthermore, when it comes to Day Two, and making sure that's up to date, making sure that you can patch that. For example, if there's a critical bug, you want to be able to do that in an automated fashion as well, because there's just so many moving parts that it's impossible to keep track of all this stuff manually. >> Bob, there's so many changes that go through when we're moving to that environment where it's going to change a lot more. We think about management. It used to be, oh, okay, I know where the server lives. Wait, VMs fly all over the place with VMotion of containers, by the time you go looking for it, it feels like it's trying to measure the speed and direction of an atom. You can't pin it down. But the one I want to get you, from a customer along that journey, the consumption model has to be something that is changing along the lines. How does the infrastructure, how do we make sure it can scale like the cloud, and how can I pay for it like that, that flexible model? >> That's pretty interesting, because we see a couple of things. Organizations come to us and say, I'm all in uncloud. Okay, what do you mean you're all in uncloud? Well, there's two things that come out, right? One is elastic capacity, the ability to expand as needed. The other one is metered use. In other words, I only want to pay for this stuff when I'm actually using it. We're providing a couple of ways to get there today with Dell Technologies Cloud. One is this Data Center as a Service offering that we've been discussing, which is VMware Cloud on Dell EMC. The other one is flex on demand, and flex on demand is an offer that we'll bringing to the table for traditional customer-managed infrastructure that allows organizations to essentially only pay for the nodes that they're using in their on-premises cluster. We believe that being able to deliver that, whether it's on-prem with traditional infrastructure, or in a public cloud environment, which organizations clearly have voted with their dollars on, is key. So that's what we're bringing to the table with Dell Tech Cloud. >> It's clear you guys are building that out and running as fast as you can (laughing) to get it done. The final thought I want to get your guys to weight in on, the show this week. What's the big takeaway from your perspective? Obviously Pivotal is big news into the fold with VMware is going to be a really strategic opportunity for VMware to go that next level with developers and then figuring out, connecting the dots there. What's the top stories that you're seeing, that people, that you're walking away with from the show this week? >> For me, it's really you don't have to choose. In other words, organizations are looking at containerization and saying, wow, next generation applications are going there. Maybe I should be shifting everything over there. And yet they're saying, gosh, I've got all this existing infrastructure, what am I going to do? So really, PKS on VCF is allowing organizations to say, I can have existing virtualized apps living right next to my emerging containerized applications, and use existing infrastructure, existing skills in order to get there. And I think really you don't have to choose. You've got a path forward from where you are today, into this next generation of cloud-native applications is really exciting, and that's what we're >> John, your thoughts. >> bringing to the table. >> I think organizations, customer organizations, need to re-evaluate who VMware is, and what they can do for them. Pivotal's always been about business outcomes for our customers, and those outcomes come through developing software to drive the business. VMware has reached out to developers in the past, but that's really on steroids now. >> They've really had a ton of success there because they're operators. But they've always been a software company. VMware is, at heart, a software company. >> Right, but I always think of marketing as save money, make money (laughing) but go faster. VMware's been amazing at helping folks to save money, go faster. >> I think the Pivotal relationship's going to be really important for VMware. I think it's going to completely change the game. We'll be tracking the progress. Thanks for sharing, thanks for coming on. Thanks for the insight, here on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, and more of the live coverage from Vmworld 2019 after this short break. (techno music)