>> Voiceover: From New York, it's the Cube! Covering Blockchain week. Now here's John Furrier. (music) >> Hello, everyone, I'm John Furrier. We're here on the ground, exclusive coverage for Consensus 2018, part of Blockchain Week New York Hashtag us BlockchainweekNY for New York. I'm here with Jimmy Song, who's a partner at Blockchain Capital. A celebrity in the industry, original core bitcoiner, does a lot of work teaching programming- programmable programming bitcoin dot com, also- >> Programmingblockchain.com >> I mean, sorry- programmingblockchain.com On the panel, yesterday, really kind of calling out in really a provocative, in discourse way- Civil discourse, state of the blockchain. Welcome to the Cube conversation. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me, it's a pleasure. >> So, great to have you on! One, you do a lot of due diligence for Blockchain Capital out in San Francisco, you seal a lot of deals. You're in the space, been there early- on a panel, yesterday, here at the event quite a lot of fireworks going on. You were kind of throwing some haymakers out there, some Molotov cocktails, creating a provocative civil conversation around the state of blockchain- we call it blockchain-washing, where people kind of throw blockchain at something and then say, "We're good, but not good." Your thoughts on that? What was the reaction? >> Yeah, so, I mean Amber Baldet went up and she talked about her product and I just saw lots and lots of buzzwords. And I didn't know what the heck it was, and I thought the rest of the audience doesn't know what it is, either, if I can't get it. I'm a technical guy, I've been around for a while, and I don't understand what the hell this is. And really, a lot of these decks, they just show different pictures of companies and say, all these other people- it's all social signaling, right? It's not about the tech at all, or what it's all about. So I just sort of gave voice to all those people in the audience that were thinking, "What the hell is this? This doesn't make any sense." So I said, "I just see a lot of buzzwords and I don't know what this is and I'm kind of cynical about all this stuff 'cause I've seen so many decks that are like this." And I said, "I don't know if there's anything here." I think a lot of the stuff that's being sold in this industry is just snake-oil. >> Snake-oil is something that people are worried about, but also there's obviously two perspectives: One is, I'm long on the sector, I love the action, I compare to the big waves we've seen. Lot of growth coming. You can kind of easily connect those dots, but the reality is it's still maturing, still embryonic, still more work to do. There's companies out there that are trying to get on the wave. But the model of their business and/or their tech is centralized. So you can't just flip the switch and that was one of your key points. I really want to unpack that. This is a fundamental ethos and also architectural challenge You got to be compatible with the infrastructure the way it's rolling out. Describe what more in detail what you mean by your thoughts on having a decentralized either, company, or architecture. >> Yeah, so a lot of these companies are taking a centralized system and trying to add a decentralized tech into it, like a blockchain. And it doesn't work because the fundamental proposition of a blockchain is that no single person controls it. But these are companies that are trying to control it. I wrote an article yesterday, I released an article yesterday morning, in preparation for what I was going to say on the panel, in part because-- and it's called, "Why Blockchain is Hard" Large part of blockchain is it's extremely expensive in so many ways. And it doesn't really make sense to do it unless you get decentralization. But if you have a centralized point, you're having to trust that centralized entity, anyway. So, putting that thing into it doesn't really make any sense and the tech is just not a good fit. >> You and I were talking before we came on camera about our computer science backgrounds and high-fiving each other, but the bottom line is we've seen paradigms in computer science that have done a lot of these things before: Gamification, token economics, rewards programs. All kinds of things that have been done with traditional databases and distributed computing. So, the question that I hear a lot is, from people that like the wave, the sea of possibilites, they ask the question: Why blockchain? So that's the question I want to ask you. If someone's out there, looking at their business and Okay, what is this? Why blockchain? What's in it for me? How do you react to that? How do you answer that question? 'Cause it's an important one. You're either "yes" or "no"-- It's kind of, almost binary. "Yes, I'm in, it's good for me" or "not compatible." What's your response to the question? >> Yeah, so first of all, that is exactly the question you should be asking as a business person. If you're not getting any ROI out of it, then why the hell are you using it? Vast majority of the time, you're not going to get anything out of the blockchain unless you're using bitcoin or something like that which actually is sort of sound money that's not inflated away by the government and things like that. But there are aspects of the blockchain that I think are very useful. I think 99% of the products that are out there that are touting blockchain-- most of them are really looking at a technology from 1991. Public key cryptography. They just want proof that certain things happened and they want transparency around that. And if you have that, you don't really need the entire apparatus of a blockchain, you just need the public key cryptography. Why do you need the whole blockchain? It's so confusing to me why they conflate the two because it's-- public key cryptography is so much easier to understand. >> And there's some overhead involved in blockchains, it's early on. What are some of those areas that are obvious, that you can just share for the folks that aren't inside the ropes on the industry? What are the obvious areas of concern in blockchain? Latency, gas, turnaround. What are some of the things? >> From a blockchain's perspective, first of all it's extremely hard to develop. As a programmer, agile methodology, obviously, has been very popular. You iterate over and over again. Facebook's motto is "Move fast and break things." You can't do that on a blockchain. You can't move fast, you can't break anything. 'Cause if you break anything, the entire data block structure is completely corrupt and then it's no longer useful. So you have to get everything right at the first time. You have to also-- like you said about gamification-- you have to be very careful about incentives 'cause if you get the incentives wrong and someone has an economic incentive to abuse your blockchain, they're going to do it. There's also all sorts of costs from a maintenance perspective 'cause you have to not only store the data, you have thousands of nodes, everyone has to store the data, everyone has to verify the data, everyone has to transmit the data. This is 1000X the cost of a centralized database. That's a tremendous cost to pay and you could do a lot of the same things that you're looking for if you're a centralized entity already, with back-ups, receipts, audits, public key cryptography. There are ways to get a lot of the things people are touting without necessarily using this heavy, heavy, expensive slow apparatus. >> It's like building the Linux kernel when all you need is an application. >> Yeah. >> And the developer requirements are high. >> Yeah, yeah. >> As well as the overhead involved, and cost. >> Yeah. You're trying to use a construction vehicle to run your groceries, or something. >> It's crazy. >> Just find the right tool. >> What are some of the things that you could share for folks watching, either entrepreneur, developer, or business executive, that says "Hey, you know what? I want to learn more." Obviously, there's some good trends going on. The trend is your friend. You see cloud computing horizontally scalable, fully synchronous platforms. You got open source rising at a whole 'nother level, really good things going on there. Now you enter blockchain decentralized applications. What's the areas that people should focus on to go to that next level? Whether it's a toe in the water or just to jump in and get going. >> There's several things to unpack in that question. First, I think if you are interested in what blockchain technology actually is you should really study bitcoin 'cause that's really the first place it came and I would argue the only place that it actually is decentralized. Everything else has some single point of failure and most of it is not really decentralized. The other thing is, there are aspects of blockchain technology that are very interesting that you could totally utilize for your own thing. Like public key cryptography. I was talking to a startup, yesterday. They were saying, "We're going to use the blockchain to do something to optimize this part." I was like, "Why don't you just use receipts that are signed? 'Cause I think that's all you need." And they were like, "We never thought about that. We've never heard of these receipts! What the hell are receipts?" Well, they've been around for thousands of years, You could have them signed with a public key-- a private key-- and you can verify with a public key. There are all sorts of things that have been around for thirty years that you could utilize but they just don't realize that it's there. And blockchain is sort of a way to bring in into the conversation. >> Jimmy, talk about the ICO craze. Obviously, one of the things that I think is important is that when you look at these new waves of change, efficiencies are key, right? Inefficiencies get abstracted away with abstraction layers and what we see with blockchain is early indicators of where we think it might go. It takes an inefficiency and makes it efficient. No one control, maybe some democratization thrown in there. I don't see venture capital private financing-- >> Mmhmm (affirmative) >> seems to be inefficient with all the ICOs, it's like, a lot fundraising going on with ICOs. What's your take on ICOs? Good, bad, ugly, at the moment? Legit? >> I think ICOs are a broken business model. Completely broken business model. You're funding something-- you're funding a restaurant, you're selling seats to a restaurant before the building's built. Right? Or you have a menu, or anything. And the whole thing about an ICO is you have to design the incentives, there's a blockchain, most of them, right? And you have to design the incentives at the beginning and it can't ever be wrong. If it's broken in any sense, then you can't pivot! Most startups, you fund them, you believe in the people, and you go, okay, well, if it doesn't work, at least we invested in smart people that could pivot they could do something else. You can't do that with an ICO. And right now, my take on it is, the reason that they're getting funded is there's a big public demand for asymmetric payoffs. That's why lotteries are popular. But the government no longer has more or less a monopoly on lotteries. You have ICOs and things of that nature so, I don't know. I just don't see them as being a legit business model or that many good things coming out of it because they are, more or less, kickstarters where the people that are delivering don't have to deliver anything to take the money. >> It sounds like a great thing if you want free cash. It's not a business model, I agree. Is it a mechanism? Do they hang around? Does it morph? Or does it just completely go away in your mind? >> I was talking more about utility tokens. I think security tokens might have a place, so if you already have a business and you want to securitize it, sort of outside that investment banking infrastructure, that might make sense. You have efficient distribution mechanism for dividends or something like that and preferred shares, whatever. That could be useful and it does sort of take out some middle-men. But as far as ICOs as they're currently construed as a way to raise money, not really. >> Jimmy, I want to ask you: we've seen three kinds of companies in the ICO space. Startups selling seats to a restaurant that doesn't exist, yet. Not going to last long. Okay, put that aside. And then, the Hail Mary play. "Shit, we're going out business!" It used to be open source, now let's do an ICO. So, we got to guess and throw money at the wall-- we do a Hail Mary. >> Uh huh (affirmative) And then the middle one is growth opportunities. Some companies that say "Hey, you know what? We have a decentralized-- we might have token economics built into our model. We could actually turn this into a growth strategy for our business-- both business model and technology platform. For those companies, what does that picture look like and what is your recommendation for someone, entrepreneurial or techie, to take their business and create a growth strategy, both CTO, CEO-level approach? What's your view? >> I've actually heard a term of exactly what you're describing and it's called the reverse ICO. And it's these companies that exist that can't raise any funding so they use an ICO to raise money. I actually don't know how that's going to shake out or whether or not it's recommended 'cause we really haven't seen much of it, yet. >> It's a pivot. >> It's a pivot and a way to get money that's in a cheap way. I don't know how long it lasts. >> Well, legit growth company-- say, self-funding or done some V.C. Say some guy's going, "Hey, we want to grow. We have traction. We're an existing business. And I have some databases. I might want to open it up and do token economics or apply blockchain if available." What should they do? What's the vision of how a growth strategy-- a real growth strategy can be built? >> Man, I wish I could answer that question, 'cause I might try it! >> I know, that's why I'm asking. It's the million-zillion-dollar-question. >> It's really difficult to know and I encourage entrepreneurs to experiment in this area and obviously if you were doing unethical I wouldn't recommend it at all but if there's a real way that you can do it without screwing up, screwing your investors or your users or your employees, then by all means, try it! But I'm not going to tell you that something's going to be successful. I really don't know. >> Jimmy, thanks for spending the time, I know you're super busy. I know your voice is going-- you've been on panels. You've been doing a lot of networking, meeting a lot of folks. Thanks for spending time here on the Cube. I really appreciate it. >> Thank you so much, it was a lot of fun. >> We're here on the ground in New York City for Blockchain Week. This is Consensus 2018, Silicon Angle the Cube Coverage. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching more coverage here at thecube.net (music)

>> Announcer: From New York, it's theCUBE. Covering Blockchain Week. Now, here's John Furrier. >> Hello, everyone, I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. We are here on the ground in New York City for Consensus 2018, part of Blockchain Week New York. #BlockchainweekNY. We're here, with Judy Gordon with OmniSparx. It' a startup, they just looking for an ICO, getting it going, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> We're in media row here, all the action going on at the Hilton, there's a packed event. What's it like? You're navigating this sea of growth. You guys are a startup, it must be amazing. >> It is amazing. And what's been the best part for us is meeting all these amazing projects that our company is hoping to support. >> Take a minute to explain what you guys do, stage of the company, how many employees, what you guys are doing, looking for some funding partners. Take a minute to explain what's going on. >> Yeah, so we are a community management platform. We are a product for community managers of all kinds of projects to help manage this very difficult problem that they have. With so many community members, so many are anonymous, so many are causing problems, but yet they need community members to really build their projects. We are just finishing up our angels, our friends and family round, and we're starting our seed round. >> Where are you guys located? >> We're located in Chicago. >> Okay, cool, Chi-town. >> Yes, we have about, we have five members of the team in Chicago and we have a development team in Serbia. >> What's your background? How did you get into this role? What's your role in the industry? How did you get here? >> So, I've been in marketing for large corporations and small startups. And one of my old bosses from Motorola started the company and invited me to come on in and do marketing. And it's been, it's an amazing space right now. >> Interesting opportunity for startups here with Blockchain and decentralized applications. But you mentioned community software. When was the last time the technology stack in community software's been modernized. I mean Slack is like a poster child. It's essentially an IRC message group with a user interface with great APIs. I love Slack. We use it, but that's not really modern software. >> Right. >> So how are you applying Blockchain and decentralized applications for a new modern community approach? >> So first of all, we're letting community members and media managers use whichever tool they want. So from our perspective, you can use Telegram, Slack, Twitter, Facebook, all the tools that you use today. But right now they have to go from channel to channel and manage all these different channels. So now they'll be able to do it from one space. But the way we're revolutionizing it is, and the challenge with crypto is that there are all these anonymous participants. So there's all these token holders out there, but you don't know who they are. Well, we have an app where people can go in, they sign in for the app, they tell you if they want to that they're your token holder, what their social handles are, and so that you can do direct outrates. >> So you guys actually going to have a token? Is it going to be an ICO, public, private, security token, utility token, can you just share some insight into what the strategy is. >> Yeah, so our plan is to do an ICO. We're following all the US regulations. And we'll have a token. Our token is going to be, it's a security token, and crypto projects will be able to use it as a way to do community outreach and do campaigns. Community campaigns. >> Any good leads here at the show? >> Oh, yeah, every single community manager we talked to has been interested. There's so many great projects out there. They all want to build a community, they all need community to thrive, and they all need a tool like ours. >> Well, since you said as an industry veteran, I want to get your take while you're here on the event. What's your experience here? What's the main content? The people who couldn't make it here, obviously they sold out, what's the show about? What's the core themes? What's resonating from a content thematic standpoint that you've observed? >> Well, I think a couple of things. First of all, there's so much excitement, so much growth, so much opportunity. I think what struck me, as I was waiting to be interviewed here, so many languages. People from all over the world are here to learn, to network. And what I've always found is so wonderful about the crypto community is it's really a community. People want each other to thrive. >> It's a tight-knit community. I got to say, it's very strong. They're very opinionated. They're not afraid to share opinions. We just had Jimmy Song on from Blockchain Capital, and he's really vocal, but it's cordial, it's civil, and there's some civil discourse which moves the needle. >> Yeah, and everyone wants everyone to succeed. >> Right, awesome. One of the things I noticed was a lot of the women in tech panels going on, still it's a sea of men here. You're a woman here. What's it like, we need more women in tech. >> Yes. >> What's your, what are you doing to change that? Obviously you're here. Is there more women coming on board? Is there groups out there within this community? What's the women in tech angle? >> Yeah so, I was surprised and I knew there were very few women in Bitcoin, but looking around at Blockchain, there really aren't that many women here. And so, but I think it's a great space for women. I think there's a lot of opportunity for women. And there are several organizations working to promote women in this space. >> It's really rockin'. >> Hopefully next year it'll be different. >> We need more women. So more women out there. Judy Gordon is here, she's with OmniSparx startup. Changing the game with new infrastructure for communities. I'm John Furrier here on the ground here at Blockchain Week Consensus 2018. Thanks for watching. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Nassau, in the Bahamas, it's The Cube. Covering Polycon '18. Brought to you by PolyMath. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is The Cube's live coverage in the Bahamas of Polycon '18, put on by PolyMath and Grit Capital. And a special guest who just did a walk-by, fly-by, The Cube wanted to bring him in, Jeremy Gardner. We've chatted with him all week, influencer, entrepreneur, venture capitalist now, been involved in crypto, dropped out of college, luminary in the industry, young gun, great to have you on The Cube. Thanks for coming on. >> That is the most honorific title I've ever received. >> We like to shoot the shit around here on The Cube. Seriously, though, you have a big following in the community, well respected, I mean, a lot of cool things going on. A lot of young people working on projects, you're one of them. A lot of old people coming in, that have skills, whether it's cryptography or the other ecosystems, interesting blend. You've also worked on the Augur project, which has been highly successful. It's been a great case, and I hear people point to it all the time, say, "Love that concept", but a lot of cool tech. And you're at Ausum Ventures right now, that you're running. What's your take right now? I want to get into some specifics on some tech questions, but, you know, you're out there, you've done some things, you're in the middle of it, you get a fresh perspective. What's going on? What's your view and how do you see it playing out in this business? >> What we see occurring in 2018 is an incredible maturation of the industry. We've gone from Bitcoin to cryptocurrencies to blockchain technology, to this concept of smart contracts and de-centralized applications, to this ICO fad, to now what we're seeing here at this conference, which is the emergence of security tokens. And this evolution represents the broadening of the blockchain economy as a whole. From something that once was this niche little kind of ideological technology to something that is totally global, and perhaps as big as the internet, if not bigger. And that maturation is really important, because as the market matures, a lot of the scams that we've seen in years past will begin to fade away. That being said, I think we're going to need to see a real shake-out in the industry, a bloodbath in the markets where a lot of these poorly formulated tokens, crypto assets, disappear before we see a really blossoming crypto economy. >> It's like you got to clear the digestive tract of all the bad food you ate. I mean, you got to kind of get it out. >> Exactly, it's a purge. There's so much toxic crap in this industry today, it has to disappear before we can really evolve into something that rivals Wall Street. >> Yeah, and it's early on, too. I got to say, we've seen many waves in our day, Cube, we cover it. What I like about what's happening now is you've got an ecosystem forming, you've got people like yourself who are putting out statements like that, which is, quite frankly, a signal. And people need to speak up right now, because we've got to identify the bad stuff. So the ecosystem's forming. >> Well, it can be hard to do that when you're making a lot of money on crap. I mean, I've missed out on a lot of money-making opportunities 'cause I've been ideologically pure. I've only invested in projects that I truly believe will change the world. That can be limiting. And I don't blame people that kind of set aside ethics or quality projects for a greater profit mode, I'm a big believer in capitalism, but fundamentally, that mentality has to go in order for us to take this technology to the next stage. >> Okay, money making's going to happen, there's going to be some high flyers, and some are going to be legitimately good intentions that may turn out to be crap, and then there's going to be total crap, which starts out to be a scam, anyway. >> Right. >> How do you look at those signals? I mean, obviously you want to look for trajectory and community and tokens. How do you look at it? Is it underpinnings of the tech? Is there a business model? What's your view on how to look for those potential trajectories? >> In my view, it's just like venture capital. It starts with the team every single time. Team, team, team, then concept, then market, then tech. I mean, the tech changes, the code's constantly being updated. I'm not a coder; it's something that can evolve, it's something that, once you raise capital, you can have better technologists building out your tech stack. That doesn't really concern me. It's, is this team going to execute, are they going to be able to iterate in a fast-moving business environment in which the tides are always turning, regulators are always doing different things? Are you going to be able to adapt and evolve, and are you going to work together as a team? I take teams out to dinner, I see how they interact with one another. Do they have symbiosis, or are they kind of antagonistic? If they have an antagonistic relationship, it doesn't matter how good the concept is, how great the tech is, because the team won't stay together. And I don't want to have to make those sorts of bets on who's going to be the winning player. I'll stay in touch with the team, but I'll rarely make that investment. >> Yeah, they got to be ready for battle together. They've got to get down and dirty. >> So I hold teams paramount in early-stage investing, which is all I do. >> Awesome. So what are you excited about today, right now? What are you looking at, what's floating your boat, what's getting you excited, what's the specific-- >> So, Augur's about to go on the mainnet, so it's going to be the first truly de-centralized, consumer facing, de-centralized application. Very exciting. I think it could change the world of finance forever, and the way we predict the future. So it's mainnet going live, and then three months after that, hopefully the actual platform going fully live. It's still the most exciting project in the crypto-space, in my view. Even though I've been involved for a couple of years. I am an advisor to Basecoin, which is wrapping up its presale right now. Basecoin is an algorithmic stable coin that today maintains parity with the dollar, and it, I think, is going to be one of the most necessary components. It, or another stable coin, will be one of the most necessary components of creating a true crypto-economy. 'Cause if you look at most of the blockchain applications today, most of them are using these volatile crypto-assets as forms of payments and transactions, and that doesn't work for your average consumer, or even for large enterprises. People do not like volatility. It's a compounding risk factor for almost any sort of transaction. And so for us to have a real robust crypto-economy, we need a stable coin. My bets are on Basecoin, but I'm rooting for all the teams. Because whoever does this, and it may be multiple teams, will have unlocked one of the biggest problems that effects crypto-assets today, which is volatility. >> And liquidity is also a concern, people want to get liquid. That's also a dynamic of why token economics works, is you don't have the process of going public. You can do a little bit of funding and liquidity. Talk about the liquidity impact. >> Yeah, I mean, look. ICOs and token sales are this fabulous way to democratize finance and raise capital, especially for de-centralized applications and new protocols. They really can't take a traditional fundraising mechanism. That being said, if you are trying to create any sort of payment token, which I would never encourage anyone to do, but if you are, like a lot of these utility tokens, their point is for the purpose of payments. And that's idiotic to me, 'cause you're going to do what? Raise $30 million, maybe $100 million? Let's say $200 million. What's the volatility on that going to be daily, or annualized? It's insane, it will never be adopted by consumers. And furthermore, anyone that tries to create a payment token for their specific application, what they're not recognizing is someone's going to have to go to Coinbase, buy Bitcoin, send it to Poloniex, buy their token, send it to the application, just to make a payment? No way! >> Yeah, too complex. Credit cards are always going to beat that out, or Bitcoin and ether. >> Alright, so I've heard on The Cube here, and I've also heard in the hallway, a consistent theme I want to get your reaction to. This marketplace of having de-centralized apps, and blockchain, and cryptocurrency kind of dynamic really disrupts areas that have a lot of slack, or lag, or unused resource. It could be a physical asset, could be computers in the data center doing P2P stuff, and that this market busts down those inefficiencies, creates efficiency, that's the arbitrage. >> It can. >> Your reaction to that. >> It can, but like I say, how do you get access to those tokens? So the rise in security exchanges, security token exchanges, and more robust crypto-asset exchanges, will potentially enable that right now. But unless you have an easy way to buy and store those tokens that are freeing up illiquid assets in a dynamic manner, tokenizing assets isn't very useful. You know, with Blockchain Capital, my last venture fund, we created the first liquid venture fund. It was actually the first security token ever. And the problem that we ran into was everyone was excited, we created this liquid, limited-partner interest in a venture fund, but the problem was there was no place to trade it or sell it. And so, despite the nav of the fund going up, the price of the token remained the same, 'cause there was no liquid exchange. So you need a liquid place for the exchange of value in order for the liquidization of these assets to occur. Furthermore, I think more important than that point is that blockchains are fundamentally the largest technological disintermediator that has ever existed in human history. Even, since the beginning of time, pretty much, we have always relied on middlemen, whether they're banks or governments or tribal councilmen, to mitigate any sort of transaction. With blockchains, we can now have truly trustless transactions, and disintermediate trillions of dollars' worth of middlemen and trolls under the bridge. And that's the most revolutionary component of this technology. >> That's awesome. I want to get one quick question in, we're tagged for time. This rise of the security token has been a great innovation. We've seen great traction because of the security token, we're seeing PolyMath doing a lot of people looking at this as a stabilization. What does it do to the utility token? Does it change the nature of the utility token? Will utility token have a life that's not a monetizable thing? Will it still trade? What's your view and vision on the role of the utility token now that the security token has been established as a viable mechanism? >> So look, when we were building Augur, we did not want to issue a token. ICOs were really scary back then, but we realized, in order to have a truly de-centralized prediction market platform, we had to have a second token. One that wasn't used for payments, but that created a de-centralized consensus in our network. And so we created the first utility token ever. And back then, I was like, oh, this is novel, this is cool. We tried selling it to people; No one really got it. But then, it seems like we went and opened up Pandora's Box. All of a sudden, utility tokens flourished in the past two years, as this means to raise capital. The problem was, nobody was thinking beyond that capital raise. And so most of those utility tokens would have been much better as security tokens. They didn't actually provide much utility. And so I think those tokens, that 99%, 98% of utility tokens that have come out in the past two years, that didn't actually have true utility, those will go, you know. >> Yeah, I think it's some interesting conversation. I want to follow that up when we get back to the Bay Area. This is super important, I really love the idea that you're kind of teasing out. I see utility tokens having an instrumental role in governance consensus, other community dynamics, which might have its own value. I don't know yet what it looks like, but we'll certainly follow up. >> Absolutely, and security tokens will be the largest crypto-asset in the next two to three years. >> Jeremy Gardner, great conversation. Love the young guns, man. They're so smart, great to have you on, us old guys, we're just trying to keep up with these young guns. Back with more live coverage after this short break. Good job, man. >> My pleasure, man. >> You're awesome, dude. Alright. Hey, when we get back, I really want to get, I think the utility, I think the dual-token model is the way to go. Security, and >> I didn't think it would, but right now, the problem is most utility tokens-- (electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Nassau, in the Bahamas it's theCUBE. Covering POLYCON18. >> Hello welcome back everyone this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage from the Bahamas, we are here at POLYCON18 Put on by Polymath and Grit Capital This is an amazing event, it's really the cryptocurrency, blockchain, token economics, the decentralized future-internet is happening now. The industry if forming, CUBE is starting its 2018 run. We'll cover all the top events this year, in the cryptos. As you know, we know cloud, big data, we do all those other events, we'll start covering in a big way because the ecosystem is formed, you're seeing people making money. The early whales, the big guys, now you've got institutional investors coming in, a real ecosystem dynamic. This is what industries look like when they're formed. Our next guest is Carlos Domingo, founder of and managing partner at SPiCE VC, and the founder and chairman at Securitize. One of the tell-signs of a maturing ecosystem that's growing very fast is companies that are adding value. You're one of them, Carlos. >> Thank you. >> Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, thank you guys for having me here. >> So, you know Dave Vellante who just had to jump on a plane 'cause the snowstorm in Boston would comment, he would say, 'cause we talk about this all the time, "You know you look "for the big waves, and you see what's happening. "But How do you know when there's a tipping point "in a new industry?" And that when there's stuff being created, value being captured, industry being formed with an ecosystem, and a community, this is absolutely happening. >> Correct. >> You're bringing a very valuable service to market. You guys self-funded this operation, Securitize. You're automating other value chains that were old guard businesses in a new way. >> Correct. >> Take a minute to explain Securitize, why the idea, what you guys have built, what you've got going on, and, What's the disruption of that product? >> Good, so the idea came originally 'cause last year me and my partners, we wanted to tokenize a VC fund. And basically show a security token that contains the economic rights of the fund as a way to provide liquidity to the investors because liquidity on the VC space is one of the biggest problems, right, you invest money and it takes like seven to 10 years and then you can actually get your money back. So we had that idea, at that time Blockchain Capital had done one security token, was the first security token, for a 10 million dollar offering, and we wanted to kind of build on that, so we went out and looked for people that could actually do the issuance of the security token in a regulated way, so the KYC, the AML, the accreditation process per country, not just for the US. And basically ran the ICO in a secure way with secure wallets for different cryptocurrencies, and then also have the smart contract issuing the token, but also smart contract managing what happens with the token on the secondary market, which is very important, right? 'Cause see, in the secondary market the tokens can actually move from a wallet to a wallet, and suddenly you're outside the regulatory framework that you protected at the beginning Right, so we went out and talked to Polymath and many, the few companies that were doing that and no one was actually ready with a platform last year, so, we are all tech entrepreneurs and product people, so we did what we know how to do, we hire a CTO, hire engineers and went and built our own platform for SPiCE VC, for tokenizing the fund. And then when we announced the project around September, October last year, I posted a Medium about the investment process, and the screenshots of the path and how it works, all the features that it has, we also integrated Bancorp as the central exchange to provide liquidity. And then started of getting flooded with people saying, wow, this is very cool yeah, we wanted to do security tokens, think this is the future, and no one actually is ready with the platform and you guys seem to have one, so who has built it? And I told people, we built it, this is our platform. And then we took the decision last year to basically separate the platform from the fund. And the fund becoming the first customer, and we created Securitize. Which is basically an end-to-end issuance platform for security tokens. >> And so this is really filling a void for people who want to either raise money for a startup-like venture, And then also maybe want to raise cryptocurrency in capital for growing a business that they're tokenizing. That's a big trend, so you've got the startup, hey I've got a great idea with a whitepaper, we're going to revolutionize the world, People are interested, some people call it the dumbest idea they've ever seen, which turns into a billion-dollar idea, because that's the way it works. (laughs) So got to raise some cash. And then there's the businesses that are growing saying, you know, I can grow with working capital in a tokenized environment, 'cause the business model shifts for that. >> Correct, I think that what people don't realize is that you know, getting actual liquidity in a market, like doing an IPO is either very difficult, or very expensive, or both things. >> John: Yeah, and the hurdle's very high. >> Yeah, the hurdle is very high, the cost could be like 10 to 12% of the money you raise you know paying the underwriters and paying everyone to get it done, so I think that what tokenizing real assets, like asset-backed tokens or security tokens, this basically allows for two things. One is the network of investors you can actually reach is anyone with an internet connection that within the regulation in their country are allowed to invest. So suddenly you've multiplied by 100 the reach you have of potentially finding investors. And second, is it's cheaper to do it. There's less friction. Third, is managing all of these thousands of investors would not be possible in the traditional financial system, right? Because you have investors from many countries, with different currencies, different bank accounts, different banks, and with the smart contract and tokens you can automate the entire process, >> And from your accent you're obviously not in the US, not an american but you're from? >> I'm from Barcelona. >> Barcelona, so you're really laid back, you're chill about this, but you're hardcore techie, right? >> (laughs) Yes. >> Okay, so let me just go through the process here, so what's interesting to me is, first of all, I love cloud computing and I think what DevOps has done in software with open-source that's clearly, in line with crypto market scene, mission. Automation is a really big deal, when you can automate something down to efficient process, you're doing it, you guys are doing this different, it's well not different it's automated, great, but the investment piece is accredited investors, right? Am I getting it right? >> It depends on the jurisdiction. So, most countries have security laws, so what our platform does, is we'll actually identify through the KYC on the name of the investor, and depending on the jurisdiction where you're from, we will apply a different rule, because in the US it is accredited investors only but in other countries you can take the small portion of retail. Also the meaning of accredited investor is different, how you actually comply with that, the documentation you need to collect or not collect for validating that someone's an accredited investor is not the same in the US and in other jurisdictions. >> Alright so, here's the problem that I see you solving, correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm a company XYZ Corporation, we're growing like crazy and we can tokenize our business, and we say hey, we could raise a token, 'cause we actually have a product and security token is a great vehicle, and so they go their lawyer well you're in the US, you can only use accredited investors, if you want to go outside the US you got to go to the Cayman Islands or somewhere else, set up a new company and do all that stuff, 'cause they have to manage the process, and they got to go find investors, that's hard! >> That's hard. >> Okay, do you solve that problem for them? >> We streamline the problem, so basically, first the fact that you setup a company in Cayman doesn't actually prevent you from, you know, the regulations in each country because the regulators care about where the investor sits, not where the company is. So what we solve the problem, is basically allow them to provide a liquidity event through fundraising and provide liquidity for the investors on the secondary market, so we basically will save them the trouble of having to figure out how to do all these processes country-by-country. >> So it's a liquidity value, too, so it's also getting the process done, streamlined, and then managing some liquidity challenges that the company would have to put cycles into managing it. >> Exactly. >> Okay so here's a question, so this is like a consulting hour for the people watching. I'm a company, XYZ Corporation I want to tokenize my business, now, we've been up and running for a few years and say hey, Securitize is really interesting, these guys are amazing, the same ethos as us, they're cloud guys, they're automating. Let's just go through them. We sign up, we apply to yo. What we do, do we have to set up a new company, is there risk issues, what's your advice on the playbook? >> So the fact, because you're using a security you don't actually have to go through all the jurisdictions, right? You can just do it from wherever you are, because you're issuing a security that assigns some economic interest on you your business, right? Now in terms of us, we're trying to become kind of like a quality security token ICO place, so we create a lot and decide which ones we bring on board or not, first, because we have so many, we have hundreds of leads coming to us all the time. And secondly, because we want to make sure that people who we're securitizing, that those are quality companies that we've vetted, and our lawyers have checked that the company's interesting, that the company is going to do well not only and the fundraising, but later down the road, so, >> What about the legal and regulatory challenges? So again, most people do a new code because they want to protect their corporate shield, there's a corporate shield to protect themselves, you know investors are always are gun-shy or trigger-happy when it comes to suing people. Especially in this economy. How does an entrepreneur or business manager protect against that, do you guys handle some of that, or is it just a buyer beware kind of thing? >> No, so we work with our attorneys, Colten in New York they specialize in securities, and we basically will advise the customer that actually uses our attorneys because they are very experienced in doing this, and in terms of protection, in a security token you're not just getting the token, you're actually signing a subscription agreement which is a legal binding document that explains exactly what the token is going to do, and there's and information memorandum which is basically describing what the business is going to do. So there's a legal framework, off-chain if you want alongside the on-chain token and the smart contract side. >> So all that stuff's happened, so awesome. Alright so we're going to change gears here, Carlos. Talk about, talk about you, why, why do this? What drove you here, are you scratching an itch or are you serial entrepreneur, how did you get here, what's the story? >> So the story is I've been, this is like the third phase of my career. My first 10 years of career, I was at the middle of the dot-com boom, I took company public in Inashik, Japan. And then went through years of corporate companies and then everything crashed so I lived both the up and the down. The second part of my career started in 2006 and then lasted another 10 years, which is during Telefonica, one of the largest telcos in the world, and I lived through all the mobile boom with the iPhone coming out in 2007 and 2008 and all the excitement happening in the industry but to me it was the opposite, I was looking for what is the next thing I do, because all these industries are now not as exciting anymore. So I came across blockchain and crypto, two things. One is I was doing a project in small cities and Dubai, where I live, where we started looking at blockchain and ran some pilots and then one of my colleagues, and friend, Brendan Eich who is the founder of Mozilla and he actually did an ICO for a company called Brave in March last year, when I saw that-- >> Brave browser? >> Yeah, yeah. >> Very familiar, great, great offering. >> He's a great entrepreneur, the guy's invented JavaScript and when I saw he did that, I met him actually a year ago and I met him this week as well in Barcelona at Mobile World Congress and when I say what he did I was like wow this is very revolutionary, right, so this is a completely different way of raising money and it's also a great way for investors because you get liquidity so why not get there and find a project. So, I started with one and then-- >> Serial entrepreneur, great story, lot of experience coming into cryptos, you got some young guns who are inventing, and making some cash, and doing well, also starting funds. You've got developers and business entrepreneurs who are successful and they're becoming investors and then you got the pros coming in, alpha geeks, serial entrepreneurs, pros on the banking side, all think differently, and they see the vision, so I got to ask you, what is your vision of the decentralized internet? You've seen how telcos work and you know their challenge is over the top content, centralized organization, you see what Brave's doing, you've lived the dot-com up and down, what's your vision of decentralized internet, how would you describe how big the wave is, and what's the opportunity? >> So I think that if you think of why people were excited in 1994 1995 over the internet, it was precisely because the internet promised decentralization back then, right? So there were all these protocols that allow you to move voice, move data, move webpages that we're going to disintermediate people. And what happened is that a lot of traditional players got disintermediated but then the weight shifted into players which are now high concentrated and centralized, right, everything on Facebook or Google. So I think that the excitement around crypto's about making a reality, the decentralized internet that didn't happen the first time. And I think that because the protocols have a way to monetize, and there's an economic incentive to be part of the network, this time will be different. >> Cloud computing has also helped a little bit, too. Because with open source and cloud computing you have a great creative environment on technology's side. >> Correct, this is like open-source money if you want to think about like crypto. So I think yes, the fact that the maturity of some adjacent technologies is helping this move faster. >> And open-source has been a proven formula, one, second tier citizen when I was growing up in the open-source community, I remember people were poo-pooing Linux back in the day, and all of the sudden now it's tier one powering the world, and now you have community modeling around how that worked, how would you compare and contrast? And you have other things coming into this, too. You've got cryptography systems you've got gamers and cryptocurrency and you got cloud, how would you tease out the industry and describe the cryptocurrency and the blockchain communities, I mean it's kind of a confluence of a lot of-- >> I think it's a very interesting industry and it has forced myself also to have to learn about adjacent topics, right, because you've got to understand about technology, but you've got to understand about software, cryptography, you've got to understand about finance and economy to understand what a monetary policy is and how you're going to define that into your token. You've got to understand about finance if you do security tokens, you know securities laws, so it is fascinating because of this confluence of different things. >> We were having a joke on one of our broadcasts, I said to my co-host, these startups will soon have a CTO, a CEO, and a Chief Economic Officer, I mean this is kind of token economics! >> Makes all the sense. >> I mean you're going to have to say, hey do we increase the coin rate, do we drop this down? >> A legal counselor. >> I mean it's a big human dynamic there. >> I think this is for me why I am so excited about it. 'cause I was kind of bored of being in an industry for 10 years, you feel that you already know more or less everything, and yet there's new things coming, but are kind of like incremental improvements. This feels like an exponential improvement, something is going to really change things, and as you said it forces you to understand more disciplines than just software technology. >> I mean to use a California example, to end the segment, you know you see the waves coming and the surfers grabbing their boards, and they're on the wave hangin' 10. And that's what's going on, you see the best people attracted to this space because there's problems or opportunities, there's challenges and there's a social impact, mission-driven impact. And I think people are seeing that, and it's attracting new entrants into the space, from banking, all sectors now coming in, they're seeing the ecosystem develop, how would you see that going, because, you do agree that the ecosystem is forming pretty quickly. >> It is forming very, very quickly, surprisingly quickly. And I think that one of the things you mentioned is the fact that, people like me or other people that come from you know long-standing backgrounds in tech are moving into this industry who are also making the industry kind of grow faster, because the industry is a bit immature if you want, in terms of everything technology. This is why there's so many hacks, the usability of the products is still not there, so as more people from a traditional tech industry move here, and start building good products, this will actually change very quickly. >> Great leadership, Carlos, on your end, congratulations. You're seeing an opportunity and you're making a difference. You're putting out a great product service I think people are going to use a lot of, and looking forward to chatting more about it and of course you got to VC fund, and you're doing some investments, you put some skin in the game as well, with your companies, congratulations. This is theCUBE live coverage we'll be back with more, here in the Bahamas, and our friend from Barcelona here. Great entrepreneur, looking forward to chatting more about the decentralized economics, the technology, how the value will be captured, the technology that's going to enable that and the impact to society. It's theCUBE, more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From San Francisco, it's The Cube, covering Samsung Developer Conference 2017 brought to you by Samsung. >> Okay, welcome back and we're live here in San Francisco for the Samsung Developer Conference, SDC2017. I'm John Furrier. This is The Cube's exclusive coverage, and I'm excited to have an amazing guest, Amanda Cooloong who's a chief storyteller, Women in Tech International, Tech TV, TechZula. She's been really a storyteller in digital for a long time. Great to have you on. Been following all your Twittersphere and your content. >> Thank you. >> You did some work with Leo Laporte, Jason Calcanis, both this week in tech's kind of version of the scene. >> Mm hm. >> What are you up to now? >> Well I am working very closely with Women in Technology International, WITI. It is the largest, oldest organization for women in tech. They have a huge summit that they put on in San Jose every year, and I'm sort of the class clown for that and emcee the conference and lead the charge there. >> Well certainly you know what's interesting you have kind of a cool vibe, you're a cool person, you know tech, you know cloud computing. >> Mm hm. >> You've been in inside baseball for the tech scene. >> Mm hm. >> But now the consumer market with digital. >> Yeah. >> Pretty powerful, I mean like finally us geeks now have a national and global stage to flex our geekness, so you see nerds- >> We're suddenly cool? >> Cool to be a geek and now you see well the programmer calls us over thank god. >> (laughs) Well is it? >> Well the bad side of it. The good side of the democratization is happening. >> Right. >> So now you have an augmented reality. So it's just some cool stuff happening. What are you most impressed with? >> What am I most impressed with? Well I love Blockchain. I've been involved with some of that for three or four years now. I actually had a podcast about Blockchain and Bitcoin. And I'm really excited about what that means for investment specifically and ICOs, Initial Coin Offerings. My friend Brock Pierce is a big, big figurehead with all of that, with Blockchain Capital. And I believe that, especially for women that are looking to get into investment and get back in the earlier stage of things, I think ICOs, Initial Coin Offerings, are a huge opportunity for them to really change up the venture world. >> So when you say ICOs, which we know a lot about 'cause we're doing one at SiliconANGLE the next couple quarters. >> Yeah. >> No rush to do it but we're going to use our own cryptocurrency. But those nuances, when you say investment do you mean as an alternative to venture capital investment or actually investing in, say, the currency itself? >> Both. But I think of it as a completely new way to invest in companies. And there are so many barriers especially for women in technology... Again, that's a big platform for me. To getting into that world that ICOs just are completely changing up the entire ecosystem there. >> Well we're seen a ton of stuff. You saw Lisa Fetterman was on earlier. >> Mm hm. >> She had a huge success with her Kickstarter. Now she's got some pretty glamorous products. The cooking thing is pretty sexy, right? >> Mm hm. >> That thing could go- >> Sous vide, even the term sous vide. I mean, it's so fresh (laughs) >> I would put money to that. I mean it's just so... But that's a good example of Kickstarter. When we look at some of the ICOs, a lot of people are raising some serious capital in utility and stock or securities. >> Mm hm. >> Although the regulations are a moving train. But on the utility side it's a no-brainer. There's some significant cash being raised. In some cases, five to 50 million plus in token sales. >> Mm hm. >> That's like Kickstarter on steroids. >> It really is, and some people are afraid of it. You know, some people are saying that's completely absurd. Why would you ever do that? I personally would say don't put all of your eggs in one basket either. We know that. There's volatility anywhere. But, again, I think it's opening a lot of doors and giving certain people opportunities that they didn't have before. >> So how is your Bitcoin position these days? >> I may have been an early investor in some Bitcoin. I may obsessively look at the value every 15 minutes or so. No, I am fortunate. I listened to my mentors, and luckily I love emerging tech, so I'm doing well in that regard. >> I saw a post on Facebook: If you just bought 10 in bitcoin and smoked weed and sat on the beach and clipped coupons all day and did nothing else, you'd be worth 20 million dollars. >> Let's just say I know people that have actually bought castles with it. I'm not joking. >> What I like about the crypto Boxchain side is that there's an early community growing. So what's your analysis, because a lot of people want to know, is it Silk Road guys? Are they bad actors? Bitcoin's the underbelly of the internet. Early adopter. >> Those stories were so funny at the beginning. I mean, I live in LA. Everyone loves the sensationalized story. And of course that existed with Bitcoin too, and yes, there was some truth to it. >> Oh of course there was. >> Yes, absolutely the Silk Road story was real. >> Anonymous and encrypted transactions. >> Oh yes. >> That's going to attract some honey to the bees. >> There's a reason why certain people can't come back into the country. Let's just leave it at that. However, we've also seen major financial institutions get onboard. You know, Fintech has exploded. There's a lot of legitimacy to Blockchain and the distributed ledger technology. >> It's one of the fastest growing products in the Linux Foundation, Hyperledger project- >> Yes. >> Which is just going gangbusters. IBM's behind it. >> Yep. >> So it's got that opensource vibe, I get that. But the community, talk about the community because there are people who are leading the community. You said you know a few of them. >> What's your take on the community? How big is it? It's emerging, obviously, it's growing. What's the protocol for new entrants coming in? What's the behavior norms? >> Sure. It's grown in leaps and bounds, I can say that. I mean, from the time I did my Bitcoin podcast a few years ago to now, back then it was very much the bro culture to a degree, a lot of libertarians (laughs), a lot of folks that couldn't come back in the country, to be quite honest. But there were certain people that came out of that movement though like Brock Pierce that really thought ahead to how do we legitimize this, how do we make sure that this is white knighted, so to speak. >> Yeah, well it's a revolutionary... It's fundamental. I had the founder of Alibaba Cloud on the record. Haven't published a video yet so this is exclusive material. He said, I asked him about Blockchain. He says it's fundamental to the internet. It is the internet. >> It is, mm hm. >> Just like TCP/IP was in the stack. >> Absolutely. >> He was adamant that this is not on top of the internet. It's fundamental to... He's talking about Blockchain. >> Yep. >> Absolutely 'cause it's supply chain, it's currency, it's a zillion things. >> It's not just coins. Everyone focused in on Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin. It's a distributed ledger technology. So it goes hand in hand with the internet of things. So the two have become very much married in that regard. >> You know, all these guys I interview on The Cube over the years, and certainly I lived through it, talk about the waves, the PC wave. >> Mm hm. They talk about the client server wave. Client server essentially, it's not so much about the mini computers 'cause the mini computers were not the client server wave 'cause that was proprietary operating systems and proprietary hardware. >> Mm hm. >> HP. >> Right. >> What made client server was TCP/IP. That created Threecom, Cisco, interoperability. So that really was that second wave. People are comparing Blockchain to TCP/IP. >> I can see that. >> Dr. Wang from Alibaba Cloud. Other people are saying like the dot com bubble, euphoric excitement. >> Yeah. >> So that begs the question. Who can bring functionality... This is my thesis. I want to test it with you. >> Mm hm. >> Who can bring functionality and simplicity? Because all the successes in Web 1.0, was Yahoo a directory of links, simple, easy to use. Cisco Routers, connect your networks, it works. So simplicity and functionality seems to be the norm in the Blockchain world. >> Mm hm. >> What's your thoughts on that? Can you share your reaction to that? >> Simplicity and functionality, I mean, for me it's- >> In terms of the winners versus the losers 'cause that's what people want to know with Blockchain. Where's the scams and where the legit? >> Mm hm, well the scams are the people that came from the gaming side that had no real business expanding out the way that they did and everybody loses their coin. But we won't name names there. I think more- >> It's okay to name names. >> (laughs) But with functionality, I mean again, I keep going back to its marriage with IOT, you know, the ledger based technology and just being able to do anything transactional. That's the simplicity of it for me, the fact that it's opensource, the fact that, yeah, I think that's the core of it. >> So let's talk about Samsung. We're here's at the Samsung event. >> Sure. >> How do you see these guys? We were talking about Blockchain. It's kind of the next big wave coming. Obviously a lot of things underneath that, but above that you've got software machine learning, all the goodness of open source is growing exponentially. That wave is coming to exponential growth in opensource, code shipments, meaning more people using opensource, and things like Blockchain. How does that impact a Samsung, an Apple, an Amazon? >> Well I think opensource is necessary for IOT specifically. Obviously that would be shut down without that. I've been talking with a lot of the developers here, the Samsung-specific people saying what is it that's exciting you about this forward movement, like with the keynote this morning. What do we need? How do we move this entire industry forward with IOT? And they're excited about the platform that Samsung has announced this morning in terms of just the ubiquity of everything working together in comparison to, well, a lot of other... Sorry. >> So the crypto thing is also tying into that too. >> Yes. >> I was tying that with IOT because IOT has some security issues. >> Right. >> So we can argue maybe- >> Some security issues? (laughs) >> Well the surface area. So you know, the theme in the enterprise is, you know, cloud computing. There's no moat anymore, there's no firewall. >> Yeah. >> Perimiterless security. Perimiterless problems. It means the edge is a surface area, and we've seen these attacks coming. >> Right. >> That's a problem. >> Mm hm. >> So there's no silver bullet right now. >> Yeah. >> So Samsung probably is cagey right now on the data. >> Exactly. >> They've got some security products, but smarter things is their kind of pitch. >> And then everybody keeps saying well who owns the security piece, who's responsible for the security piece. I think that's a big question we're going to see popping up a lot because the security piece is going to be a very valuable piece to all of this, especially when you're looking at edge computing too and data being passed back and forth between the edge. I would rather see everything stay with just the edge devices, personally. >> Yeah, well it's easier to manage, why do you want to move data across the network? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Move compute it's more efficient. >> Yeah. >> So final take on augmented reality VR. >> Oh, okay. >> What's imploding? What's imploded? What's growing? What's rising? What's falling? >> Sure. >> We had a comment earlier, said VR 1.0 is over. >> It really is. I personally think AR is where it's at. I've watched a lot of things on the VR front and a lot of it was marketing speak. I think we need a bigger push on the hardware side for VR to work effectively too. We also need to look at the audience there. And a lot of people are complaining, well I don't just want to go disappear into a separate world. A lot of women, actually, are complaining about that side of it. But the AR side I think has way more application. >> Yeah, crawl, walk, run in virtual space, basically. >> Yeah, yeah. VR I think will still be a place, but I think AR is going to be a bigger explosion. >> One of the things we were talking about earlier was as folks have been through many waves you and I've seen, waves of innovation, Web 1.0, the early adopters were the adult industry with banners 'cause they were about making money. We saw this wave. We're seeing the Silk Roads and Blockchain. Arbitrage comes from usually bad actors and not usually desirable actors. >> Right. >> But one big indicator of the current user experience we're seeing is the gaming culture, right. >> Mm hm. >> Gaming right now seems to be the early adopter indicator of the major trend lines 'cause it's gamification, it's a little bit analog, multiplayer. >> Look at Unity. Unity has a huge presence here at SDC and especially on the VR front if you want to look at that. Unity's a huge player there. >> What are some of the things you see coming out of the gaming world? 'Cause we've seen virtual currencies, ICO, lot of storage, lot of dynamic, realtime. >> Yeah. Gaming mechanism too across the board always play into this too, but I think the big one is ICOs for me. That's the one I've been focusing on a lot, yeah. >> I'd like to follow up more with you on the ICO thing. We're doing a whole programming on that on November second, love to have you. >> Mm hm. Look at what Crystal Rose with Sensay's been doing. >> Who? >> Crystal Rose, Sensay, she's launched her own ICO called SENSE. >> SENSE. Great, looking forward to chatting more. >> Mm hm, out of LA. >> Final question for you for the folks not here. What's the vibe here? How would you describe SDC2017? >> I love that there's a great vibe of innovation. Honestly, I've been to some other stodgier conferences lately, and this one definitely has a nice playful, creative vibe. >> B2B is boring to boring. This is not- >> I know, you were talking about E2E, everything to everything. See, I was listening. >> You were. >> Everything to everything. Exciting to exciting. >> Exciting. >> See, I listened to that too. Yeah, I would say there's a lot of creativity here. There's a lot of side conversations happening. That's important. And I see a good balance of men and women, so that makes me happy. >> Well I'm excited from Vanessa for bringing on a great lineup, you included. >> Thank you. >> Great to meet you in person. Had a great conversation here inside The Cube. I'm John Furrier here, exclusive coverage of the SDC2017. We'll be back after this short break.