>> Live, from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. Joined, of course, by my esteemed co-host, Stu Miniman. We have one guest for this segment, Bernard Golden. He is the vice president of Cloud Strategy at Capital One. Thank you so much for coming on the show Bernard. >> Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be on. >> You are famous in the world of cloud. You're named by wired.com as one of the most ten influential people in cloud computing. I'd love to just ask you a very broad question to start, and that is where are we right now with the cloud? Where do you see, what are sort of the biggest issue, the biggest challenges that you see with companies adopting and embracing the cloud right now? >> Well, unlike a lot of people, I think we're still a lot earlier in cloud adoption than other people do, maybe. If it were a baseball game, I'd say, maybe, the pitcher's coming out for the top of the second inning. And I think the barriers tend to be two-fold. One is, for traditional enterprises, there's still a lot of, we have a lot of embedded, a lot of legacy, a lot of investment, sunk costs, how can we step away from that, should we step away from that? So you hear a lot of discussion around what's the right role, hybrid clouds, so forth, and so on. For companies like Capital One that have said, "we're going all in on cloud," and Capital One has announced it's going all in on public cloud. Then the challenge becomes how do I adopt the practices of the organizations around the frontier of cloud? Because you have to really adapt a whole range of things. It's not just ... a lot of people treat cloud computing as kind of like it's a data center at the end of a wire. I have my traditional practices, my traditional models, my traditional tools, my traditional cost models. All of those things have to change. And so, I think for companies like Capital One, and we certainly have faced those things I would say, but for those companies that make the break to say "yeah, we're going to go all out on cloud," then it's how do I restructure the entire way I do information technology? >> Yeah, and Bernard, I agree with a lot of what you were saying. You and I have had conversations about cloud over the years. I've read lots of what you've written. Amazon would agree it's still day one, right? >> It's their phrase. >> Microsoft, I want to get you, not as Capital One, but just as a watcher of the industry, I remember a few years back, Microsoft put out TV ads like "to the cloud." At least made me cringe when I saw some of it. When I look at Microsoft today, they play strongly in SAS, they've got public cloud, they've got all the virtualization in various business products for private cloud. So they play a lot of places, they have a lot of strengths, they understand application, they understand data, they're well positioned. They might not be number one in many of these areas, but a strong customer base. And they're doing good, but I'd like to see them do even more. I'm curious of your viewpoint. >> Well I guess what I'd say is, if you look at the universe or the aggregate of cloud providers, Gartner says there's three that really matter, up in the upper right-hand quadrant of the Magic Quadrant. And that's what I call AMG, Amazon, Microsoft, Google. If you look at Gartner, they've said these are the three that really have both a vision and the ability to execute. >> We believe Alibaba might be making its way in there at this point. >> You know, Alibaba's quite interesting. I've had some interactions with Alibaba, before I joined Capital One, and they're tremendously capable technically, they have huge ambition, so I wouldn't dismiss them or write them off. They don't have much presence in the U.S., at least Capital One is primarily a U.S.-based company. But also, because of the fact that Alibaba doesn't have much presence in U.S., and not that much in Europe, they tend to not be so present, but I would definitely follow them going forward, for sure. >> Sorry, I took you off track, talking about Microsoft's positioning in the marketplace. >> Well, so they're clearly one of the three players. I would say they've had a pretty dramatic turnaround from where they were, say, four or five years ago. You can track that, maybe, to their CEO. I think they're making a strong play in this space, and obviously are committed to it. >> I think Capital One is an adopter and pushing on many of the disruptive technologies. I remember the first Echo Dot that I got, it was actually a Capital One giveaway at a conference, I bumped into you at the Serverless conference. A lot of this show is talking about the business productivity, the applications. There's lots of Azure, but I haven't heard as much about Azure, there's some announcements around Kubernetes. I had a great conversation at the Serverless booth, but if you look at the cloud piece, I want to get your viewpoint as to how Microsoft's doing, where customers are. I know we're in, especially, Serverless' very early days. But get your viewpoints on how those fit into the overall position, and anything you could say about Capital One there would be great, too. Capital One, as I said, is all-in on public cloud computing. It's announced it's going to close all of its data centers. And, as I said, the second challenge that organizations face is really when they go all-in, they go "now I have to really adapt all my practices." So, Capital One is looking at things like containers, serverless, it sponsors the serverless conference, so it's very much engaged with those kinds of things. This conference, I mean, unlike AWS that basically says "all we do is AWS," Microsoft has a very broad range of products, and they have to represent all of them at their conference. So, it's certainly not an only-Azure conference, and that's to be expected. I've said in a number of the sessions, and it's part of my job, I have to track what's going on with all these providers. And so I've tracked what's gone on in the sessions. I've been pretty impressed with some of the stuff that Azure has put forward. But there's other sessions as well. And they have to cover all the rest of their stuff. >> As you said, Capital One is all-in on the public cloud, but it is a multi-cloud world. And a lot of companies are still sort of struggling to figure out "how do I make this work, where do I go?" Can you walk us through your decision process at Capital One, and then also maybe tease out some best practices about how other organizations should make decisions? >> Well, I can't say a ton about Capital One, and about how we've looked at it, other than what we publicly announced, which is "we're all in on public cloud." Our CIO has been up on stage at AWS, very strong adapter of AWS. What I would say, is that, for most organizations, there's sort of two factors you might think about in terms of looking at using multiple clouds. One is from a risk communication strategy. Do you want to have all your eggs in one basket? And that's probably for most enterprises it's not that much of a problem in the sense that they own something of everything, no matter what. You'll never find any enterprise that only uses one thing. In any technology place, and even if they do, then they buy another company that's on a different one. But, from a risk communication strategy you might want that, and then, you might also be looking at opportunistic deployment of workloads if you want to take advantage of superior functionality available from one cloud provider or another. So, do you really like the machine learning that comes out of Azure, well you might decide to put workloads based on that. Or if you like something about certain kinds of database offerings, you might look at that. If you want a certain breadth of services, you might look at AWS, so there's a criteria you have to establish about what you want to accomplish with your applications, or what you want to do around risk management. >> Great, Bernard, what other things have you been seeing at the conferences, what's exciting you? Any takeaways for people that haven't been at the show? Or any things you'd recommend people go poke at? >> As I said, I attended a number of sessions yesterday. I was pretty impressed with the Cosmos DB multi-master. I used to run engineering groups at a database company, and I'll tell you, there's a huge revolution going on in databases, from all the providers, and having some domain experience, there's stuff that gets announced and I go, "how do they that?" I mean, that's amazing. So that was pretty impressive. There were a couple of announcements around Express Route. One, they've announced the 100 Gig Connectivity, which is pretty amazing, I think. And the second thing, this didn't get a lot of coverage and all that, is they announced that basically, let's say you're a corporation with stuff in Argentina and Switzerland. You can basically put Express Route connections into the Microsoft fiber backbone and then just transit your data across their private fiber backbone, which is pretty, pretty interesting. So, I thought that was pretty interesting. I think the rest of it is slipping my mind at the moment. >> I tell you, that is fascinating, because I remember, I've been watching since when AWS came out it had Direct Connect. It was, well, this is really interesting, there's some use cases, but Amazon, Azure, and Google, all of those versions, just hearing massive adoption as people go to a hosting colo service provider, and that can get them, I have the stuff that I'm going to own, and then I'm going to have the stuff, the public cloud in it, physics still exist, but I'm going to get them closer with high band with low-latency connections, so it's a real game-changer as to how I build my applications, and build that ... The hybrid cloud, or multi-cloud, which is something we've been kind of looking at as it's a challenging thing to do, over time. >> Yeah, it's interesting, because there was a time when the huge challenge was the skinny straw. If you had 100 megs, that was a pretty skinny straw. And now, that's really opened up a lot. And these direct connects are pretty good cross-connect performance. That was the pretty interesting era, I thought. >> Great, Bernard, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. It was a pleasure having you. >> Thank you so much for inviting me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft's Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (techno music)

>>from the Silicon Angle Media office in Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube now here's your host, Dave Vellante. >>Hello, everyone. And welcome to this breaking analysis. We're here to assess the VM Ware v Sphere seven announcement, which is the general availability of so called Project Pacific. VM Ware has called this the biggest change to V sphere in the last 10 years. Now Project Specific Pacific supports kubernetes and natively in VM Ware environments. Why is this important? This is critical for multi and hybrid cloud because Kubernetes and its surrounding orchestration enable application portability and management. Yeah, as we've been reporting, VM Ware is one of the big players eyeing multi cloud, along with a crowded field of aspirants that include IBM with Red hat, Microsoft, Cisco, Google and a host of specialists in the ecosystem. Like how she and rancher as well play. Some players have focused in their respective stack swim lanes like security and data protection, storage, networking, etcetera. And with me to dig into this announcement is stew. Minutemen's Do is a senior analyst at Wiki Bond and co host of The Cube is too good to see you and let's get into it great to talk about this state. Okay, so the Sphere seven, what is being announced? And why is it relevant? >>Yes. So, David, as you said in the open, this is the general availability of what they talked about at VM World 2019 as Project Pacific. So it really is integrating kubernetes into V sphere. The VM ware, of course, will position this is that they're now enabling, you know, the 90% of the data centers around the world that have VM ware. Hey, your kubernetes enabled. Congratulations. You're cloud native. Everything like that. Only being a little facetious here. But this is very important. How do we get from where we were to live in this more cloud? Native environments. So containers in general and kubernetes specifically are being a first class citizen. There's a lot of work, Dave, and my understanding this has been going on for a number of years. You know, it's not like they just started working at this six months ago. A overhaul to how this works. Because it's not just we're going to stick a couple of containers on top of, you know, the guest operating system in the virtual machine. But there is a supervisor cluster for kubernetes at the hyper visor level. And there's a lot of, you know, in the weeds things that we're all trying to understand and figure out because you've got you know, we've got a hyper visor and you've got VM. And now you've got the containers and kubernetes on. Some of them are living in my data center. Some VM ware, of course, lives on multiple clouds like the VM ware on AWS. Solutions of this will go there on and, you know, how do I manage that? How does this impact my operations? You know, how did this change my application portfolio? Because, you know, the early value proposition for VM Ware always was. Hey, you're gonna put VM ware on there. You don't need to touch your applications. Everything runs like it did before you were running windows APS on a physical server. You move into virtual. It's all great. There's a lot of nuance and complexity. So when VM Ware says this is the biggest change in a decade probably is, I think back to you know, I remember when the fx 2.0, rolled out in V motion really changed the landscape. That was big V balls. Move to really ah storage. To really understand that architecture and really fix storage was was a huge undertaking that took many years. This this definitely stacks up with some of those previous changes to really change the way that we think about VM Ware. I think the advertising you have even seen from being where some places is don't think of them as VM ware their cloud where our container ware with like because vm zehr still there. But VM Ware is much more than VMS today, >>so this feels like it's bm were trying to maintain its relevance in a cloud native world and really solidify its because, let's face it, VM Ware is a platform that Pat Gelsinger's has ride. The Waves tried many times in many angles to try to ride the cloud wave, and it's finally settled on the partnerships with AWS specifically. But others on DSO really Is this their attempt to become cloud native, not get left behind and be cloud naive? His many say >>Yeah, great question, David. Absolutely. There's the question as to you know what's happening with my applications, you know lots of customers. They say, Well, I'm just going to satisfy the environments. Watched the huge growth of companies like service now workday. Those applications, well, customers don't even know what they live on. Do they live on virtualization? Environment is a containers I don't need to worry about because SAS takes care of that. If I'm building modern applications, well, I'm probably not starting with VMS. Containers are the way that most people are doing that. Or they might even be going serverless now if we take these environments. So how does VM ware make sure that they have the broadest application support? Kubernetes really won the container orchestration wars on. And this is a way that VM ware now can enable customers to move down that path to modernize their environments on. And what they wanna have is really some consistency between what's happening in the cloud and happening in the environments that they control >>themselves. Vm ware saying that containers in our first class citizen within v sphere what does that mean? Why is that important? First of all, are they really And what does that mean? And why is that important? >>Yes. So, Dave, my understanding is, you know, absolutely. It's their, You know, the nuances that you will put there is. You know, we're not just running bare metal servers with Lennox and running containers on top of it. It is. You're still sitting on top of the hyper visors. One of the things I'm trying to understand when you dig down is you know what? The device driver level VM ware always looked a little bit like Linux. But the people that use it and operate it, they're not letting people Dave, these, you know, the OS. The number one os that always ran on VM ware was Windows and the traditional applications that ran there. So when we talk about containers and we're enabling that in a kubernetes environment, there are some questions about how do we make sure that my applications get certified? Dave, you got a lot of history knowing things like s ap and Oracle. I need to make sure that we've tested everything in this works. This is not what we were running traditionally in VM ware and VM ware. Just thanks. Hey, v Sphere seven, turn the crank. Everything certified Well, I would tell customers make sure you understand that your application has been tested, that your Eyes V has certified this environment because this is definitely, as VM Ware says, a huge architectural change. So therefore, there's some ripple effects to make sure that what I'm doing in this environment stays fully supported. Of course, I'm sure VM Ware is working with their huge ecosystem to make sure that all the pieces or environment you mentioned things like data protection. We absolutely know that VM Ware is making sure the day one the data protection plugs in and supported in these environments when you're using the kind of kubernetes persona or containers solutions in V sphere. >>Well, this brings me to my next question. I mean, we were talking to Bernard Golden the other day and he was saying, You know, Kubernetes is necessary for multi cloud, but it's insufficient. And so this seems to me to be a first step and, as I say, VM ware maintaining and growing its relevance. But there's gonna be a roadmap here that goes beyond just containers and portability. There's other management factors you mentioned security of enabling the ecosystem to plug in. So maybe talk about that a little bit in terms of what's necessary to really build this out over the next >>decade. And actually, it's a great point. So, first of all, you know, V. Sphere, of course, is the core of VM Ware's business. But there's only a piece of the overall portfolio said this lives in. I believe they would consider this part of what they call their Tansu family. Tando is their cloud native overarching piece of it, and one of the updates is their product hands admission control. Which of the existing product really came out of the Hep D Oh acquisition is how we can really manage any kubernetes anywhere, and this is pure software. Dave. I'm sure you saw the most recent earnings announcement from VM Ware, and you know what's going sass. What's going subscription? VM Ware is trying to build out some of their software portfolio that that isn't kind of the more traditional shrink wrap software, so Tan Xue can manage any kubernetes environment. So, of course, day one Hey, obviously or seven, it's a kubernetes distribution. Absolutely. It's going to manage this environment and but also if I've got Cooper days from azure kubernetes from Amazon communities from other environment. Tanja can manage across all of those environments. So when when you're what VM Ware has always done. If you think back in the early days of virtualization, I had a lot of different servers. How do I manage across those environments? Well, VM ware was a layer that lived across them. VM Ware is trying to do the same thing in the cloud. Talk about multi cloud. And how do I manage that? How do we get value across them? Well, there's certain pieces that you know VM Ware is looking to enable with their management software to go across them. But there are a lot of other companies, you know, Amazon Google actually not Amazon yet for multi cloud. But Microsoft and Google absolutely spent a lot of time talking about that in the last year. A swell as you mentioned. Companies like Rancher and Hashi Corp absolutely play across What Lots of these multi cloud. Well, >>let's talk about the competition. Who do you see is the number one competitors >>Well, so the number one competitor absolutely has to be red hat, Dave. So you know, when I've been in the kubernetes ecosystem for a number of years for many years. When I talk to practitioners, the number one, you know what kubernetes you're using? Well, the answer for many years was, Well, I'm grabbing it, you know, the open source and I'm building my own stack. And the reason customers did that was because there wasn't necessarily maturity, and this was kind of leading edge, bleeding edge customers in this space. The number two besides build my own was Red Hat was because I'm a red hat customer, a lot of Lennox tooling the way of building things the way my application developers do. Things fit in that environment. And therefore, that's why Red Hat has over 2000 open shift customers leading distribution for Kubernetes. And you know, this seems purely directly targeted at that market. That red hat did you know it was a big reason why IBM spent $34 billion on the Red Hat acquisition is to go after this multi cloud opportunity. So you know, absolutely this shot across the bow because Red Hat is a partner of VM Ware's, but absolutely is also a competitive >>Well, Maritz told me years ago that's true. We're with everybody and you could see that playing out. What if you look at what VM Ware could do and some of their options if they gave it away, that would really be a shot across the bow at open shift, wouldn't it? >>Yeah, absolutely, Dave, because kubernetes is not free if you're enabling kubernetes on my Google environment, I, you know, just within the last week's awesome things that were like, Okay, wait. If you're testing an environment, yes, it is free. But, you know, started talking about the hourly charges for the management layer of kubernetes. So you know kubernetes again. A color friend, Cory Quinn. Communities absolutely is not free, and he will give you an earful and his thoughts on it s o in Amazon or Google. And absolutely, Dave, it's an important revenue stream for red hat. So if I'm vm ware and you know, maybe for some period of time, you make it a line item, it's part of my l. A. You know, a good thing for customers to look out for is when you're renegotiating your l a toe, understand? If you're going to use this, what is the impact? Because absolutely, you know, from a financial standpoint, you know, Pat Gelsinger on the VM Ware team has been doing a lot of acquisitions. Many of those Dave have been targeted at this space. You know, not to step Geo, but a bit NAMI. And even the pivotal acquisition all fit in this environment. So they've spent billions of dollars. It shouldn't be a net zero revenue to the top line of what VM Ware is doing in the space. >>So that would be an issue from Wall Street's perspective. But at the same time, it's again, they're playing the long game here. Do we have any pricing data at this point? >>So I still have not gotten clear data as to how they're doing pricing now. >>Okay, Um, and others that are in there and in the mix. We talked about Red Hat. Certainly Microsoft is in there with Arc. I've mentioned many times Cisco coming at this from a networking perspective. But who else do you see and then Antos with Google? >>Yeah. And you know, Dave, all the companies we're talking about here, you know, Pat Gelsinger has had to leverage his intel experience to how to balance that line between a partner with everybody but slowly competing against everybody. So, you know, we've spent many hours talking about the VM Ware Amazon relationship. Amazon does not admit the multi cloud a solution yet and does not have a management tool for supporting all of the kubernetes environment. But absolutely Microsoft and Google do. Cisco has strong partnerships with all the cloud environment and is doing that hybrid solution and Dave Justice nothingto expand on a little bit there. If you talk about V sphere, you say, Okay, Visa or seven trolling out Well, how long will it take most of the customer base to roll to this environment? There will be some that absolutely want to take advantage of kubernetes and will go there. But we know that is typically a multi year process to get most of the install base over onto this. And if you extend that out to where VM Ware is putting their solution into cloud environments, there's that tension between, you know, Is there a match actually, between what I have in my data center and what is in the managed environment managed by VM Ware and Amazon, or manage for to support some of the other cloud environment. So the positioning always is that you're going to do VM Ware everywhere, and therefore it's going to be consistent everywhere. Well, the devil's in the details because I have control on what's in my data center, and I might have a little bit less control to some of those managed services that I'm consuming. So absolutely something to keep a close eye on. And not just for VM, where everybody is having these concerns. Even if you talk about the native kubernetes distributions, most of the kubernetes services from the cloud providers are not, you know, immediately on the latest revision of kubernetes, >>right, So Okay, well, let's let's talk about that. Remember when open Stack first came out? It was a Hail Mary against Amazon. Yeah, well, the new Hail Mary and looks like it has more teeth is kubernetes right, because it allows portability and and and of course, you know Amazon doesn't publicly say this, but it's not. That's not good for Amazon. If you're reporting things, applications, moving things around, moving them out of the Amazon cloud, and that makes it easier. Of course, Amazon does support kubernetes right, But you've got >>alternatives. So, David, it's fascinating. So I've talked to many practitioners that have deployed kubernetes and one of the top reasons that they say that why they're using Kubernetes is so they have options with the cloud. When you also ask them what cloud they're running, they're running Amazon. Did they have planned to move off of it? Well, probably not. I had a great customer that I didn't interview with that one of the Cube con shows, and they actually started out with Azure just because it was a little further head with kubernetes and then for the services they wanted. They ended up moving to AWS and Dave. It's not a click a button and you move from one kubernetes to another. You need toe match up and say, Okay, here's the five or six services I'm using. What are the equivalent? What changes do I need to make? Multi cloud is not simple. Today, I mentioned Hashi Corp is one of those companies that help people across these environments. If you have haji solution and you're managing across multiple clouds, you look in the code and you understand that there's a lot of difference between those different clouds, and they simplify that. But don't eliminate it. Just it is not. There is not a way today. This is not a utility when you talk about the public cloud. So you know Kubernetes absolutely is existentially a little bit of a threat to Amazon but Amazon still going strong in that space. And you know that the majority of customers that have deployed kubernetes in the public cloud are doing it on Amazon just because of their position in the marketplace and what they're. >>So let's double click on that. So Jassy, an exclusive interview with John Furrier before last year's re invent, said, Look, we understand there's a lot of reasons why people might choose multiple clouds, you know, go through them in a developer preference. And I think I think, you know, people want o optionality and reduce lock in potentially. But I've always said, by the way, just as an aside, that that the risk of lock in it is far down on the list relative to business value, people will choose business value over over, you know, no lock in every time. About 15% of the customers you might not agree. Nonetheless, Jassy claimed that typically when you get into a multiple cloud environment, he didn't use the term multi cloud that it's it's not a 50 50. It's a premier primary cloud supplier. So might be 70 30 or 80 20 or even 90 10. But it's really that kind of, you know, imbalance. First of all, do you see that? And then what does that mean for how they approach of this space? Multi cloud and in particular. >>So I'm sorry. You're asking how Amazon should approach the space. And you've said that I don't think they'll >>eventually enter this market place. >>Yeah, you know, absolutely, Dave. You know, first of all, in general, yes, I do agree. It is not. There are certain financial companies that, you know, have always chosen two of everything. Because for regulation and you know certain we need to protect ourselves. We're gonna have to suppliers. We're going to keep them as even as possible. But that is a corner case. Most customers I have a primary cloud. That's what I'm doing. That what I t tries to get everybody on and you need to have Is there a reason why you want to use a secondary or tertiary cloud because there's a service that they need. Of course, Google. You often run it. It's like, Oh, well, there's certain data services that they're doing well And, of course, the business productivity solutions that Microsoft's doing where the relationship with Oracle that are driving people towards Microsoft. But just as we saw Amazon soften on their hybrid solutions, we spent a lot of time at re invent talking about all the various hybrid solutions. Um, since their customers are going to have multiple clouds on and even you take most of their customers that have M and a involved you buy another company, they might be using another cloud. As Microsoft's position in the marketplace has grown, you would expect that Amazon would have not just migration services but management services to match what customers need, especially in this kubernetes environment, seems that it seems a natural fit for them. It's possible they might just leverage, you know, partnerships with red hat VM ware, you know, in some of the other players for the time being. But if the market gets big enough and customers are asking for it, that's usually when Amazon response >>So let's let's wrap with what this means to the customer. And I've said that last decade really multi cloud was a symptom of multi vendor and not so much of the strategy that's changing. You know, clearly, jokes CIOs are being called in to clean up the crime scene on do you know, put in edicts corporate edicts around security and governance and compliance and so forth. So it started to become a complicated situation for a lot of companies. We've said that multi cloud is gonna it's gonna be they're going. People are going to put the right war load and the right cloud, etcetera, and this advantages to certain clouds. But what should customers be thinking specifically as it relates to v. Sphere seven? >>Yes. So, Dave, the biggest thing I would say that people need to look at it is that understanding in your organization that that boundary and line between infrastructure and application people have often looked at you looked at the ascendancy of VM Ware, Andi V. M's and then what's happening with cloud and containers. And we think of it from an infrastructure standpoint that I'm just changing the underlying pieces. This is where it lives and where I put things. But the really important thing is it's about my data and my applications, Dave. So if I'm moving an application to a new environment, how do I take advantage of it? You know, we don't just move it to a new environment and run it the same way we were doing it. I need to take advantage of those new environments. Kubernetes is involved in infrastructure, but the real piece is how I have my application, my developers, my app. Dev's working on this environment and therefore it might be that if VM Ware's the right environment, I'm doing a lot of it that the development team says, Hey, I need you to give me a pool and provisioned this for me and I can have my sandbox where I can move really fast. But VM Ware helped initially customers when they went from physical to virtual, move faster. From an infrastructure standpoint, what it needs to do to really enable this environment is help me move faster on the application side. And that's a big gap from VM. Ware's history is where the pivotal people and hefty O people and bit NAMI and all the new people are helping along to help that whole cloud native team. But that is a big shift from customers. So for this to be successful, it's not just, oh, the virtualization admin. He upgraded to the new thing. He made some changes and said, Okay, hey, I can give you a kubernetes cluster when you need it. It's really understanding what's going to happen on the application side in a lot of that is going to be very similar to what you're doing in cloud environments. And I think this is Dave often where your customers, they say, Oh, well, I did that cloud and it was too expensive and it was too hard, and I repatriated. Everything else is, well, you probably didn't plan properly and you didn't understand what you're getting yourself into. And you jumped into the deep end of the pool and oh, wait, I forgot how to learn how to swim. So you know, that is where we are. You know, Dave, you know the technology parts. Always the easiest piece. It's getting all of the organizational and political things sorted out. And you know the developer we know how important that is, we're seeing. It's great to see VM Ware pushing faster in this environment. Kudos to them for how fast they moved. Project Pacific to G. A. That is really impressive to see and can't wait to hear the customers roll out because if this is successful, we should be hearing great transformation stories from customers as to how this is enabling their business, enabling them to move faster on. You know, that has been what, one of the favorite stories that I've been telling with customers on the Cube last couple of years. >>The vast majority of VM Ware's business, of course, is on print, and essentially they're doing here is enabling developers in their customer base and the half a 1,000,000 customers to really develop in a cloud native manner. The question is, you know, from a ah, from a cultural standpoint, is that actually gonna happen? Or the developers gonna reject the organ and say, No, I want to develop in AWS or Microsoft in the cloud. I think VM Ware would say, We're trying to embrace no matter where they want to develop, but they're still going to be. That's interesting organizational tension or developer attention in terms of what their primary choices is. They're not. >>Yeah, Dave, Absolutely. We've been saying for years. That cloud is not a location. It is an operating model. So this is helping to enable that operating model more in the data center. There's still questions and concerns, of course around, you know, consumption on demand versus you know, whether whether you've bought the entire thing as more and more services become available in the public cloud, are those actually enabled to be able to be used, you know, in my data center hosted environment. So you know, this story is not completed, but we're definitely ready. I believe we're saying it's the multi clouds Chapter three of what? We've been watching >>you and you're seeing a major tam expansion yet again from VM Ware that started with the NSX. And then, of course, went in tow networking and storage. And now they've got a cloud security division. We're talking about the the cloud native capabilities here and and on and on, it goes to thanks for helping us break this VC seven announcement down and good job fixed. All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for stew Minimum. We'll see you next time on the Cube. >>Yeah,

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hello everyone and welcome to this week's wiki bond cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we want to dig into the so called multi-cloud arena some of the questions we're getting from our community are what is a multi cloud did we really need it what problems does multi-cloud solve and importantly what problems does it create how is this thing called multi cloud likely to evolve and who are some of the key players to watch how do they stack up relative to each other you know recently I got a couple of interesting questions from a customer that says I have all this AI action going on and doing sophisticated modeling and this data lives and oh clouds all over the place how do I cross connect to the data and the workloads that are running on these clouds with the consistence this consistent experience of what our other customers doing another question came up in the community today is there a financial advantage to multi cloud or is it just about avoiding lock-in so I'm gonna take a stab at addressing these questions so first of all let's look at some of the noise that's going on in the marketplace and try to extract a little signal every vendor especially the ones who don't own a cloud are touting this thing called multi cloud and they tell us that customers want to avoid lock-in and organizations want seamless integration across clouds and they say we the vendor are uniquely qualified to deliver that capability although as you can see here in for a not everybody agrees because some feel that multi cloud is less secure more complicated in higher cost now the reality is that one two and three are true as is for a to a certain degree but generally I would say that multi cloud to date is more of a symptom of multi vendor then a clear strategy but that's beginning to change and there's a substantial opportunity out there for anyone to win so let's explore this a little bit and an exclusive sit-down with aunty Jessie prior to reinvent 2019 John Fourier got Jessie to talk about this trend here's what he said we have a large number of companies who have gone all-in on AWS and that's growing but there's gonna be other companies who decide that they're going to use multiple clouds for different reasons you wouldn't have to say that the vast majority of organizations pursuing cloud tend to pick a predominant provider that it's not a 50/50 scenario it's rather it's more like a 70/30 or 8020 or even a 90/10 faria went on to write somewhat paraphrasing I think Jesse in my view it's not hard to find the reasons for using multiple clouds right is M&A there's shadow IT there's developer preference but it's really not multi cloud by design it's just more of the same Enterprise IT mishmash that we've seen for decades so I generally have to say I agree with that but it is changing and I want to dig into that a bit so first let me recap the basic premise that we work off of first cloud is winning in the marketplace we know this building data centers is not the best use of capital unless you're a data center operator or a hyper scaler or you know maybe a SAS provider maybe so more and more work is going to continue to move to the cloud this was pretty much the first wave of cloud if you will a cloud of remote infrastructure services for very obvious workloads like web test dev analytics and certain SAS offerings the second wave of cloud which we've been talking about for 15 years was or should I say is a hybrid connecting remote cloud services to on-prem workloads and the third wave which is really hitting somewhat in parallel is this thing that we call multi cloud now it's not a perfect analogy but these multi generational waves remind us of the early days of networking now some of you may remember that years ago the industry was comprised of multiple dominant vendors that control their own proprietary network stacks for example IBM had SN a digital or deck had decnet all the many computer vendors had their own proprietary nets now in the early to mid-1980s the OSI model emerged with the objective of creating interoperability amongst all these different communication systems and the idea was we're going to standardize on protocols and the model had seven layers all the way from the physical layer through the application but really in reality was a pipe dream because we were way too complicated and and it sort of assumed that customers are gonna rip and replace their existing networks and then standardize on the OSI model now in reality that was never gonna happen however what it did is it open the door for new companies and you saw firms like Cisco and 3com emerged with tcp/ip and Ethernet becoming standardized and enabling connections between these systems and it totally changed the industry as we now know it so what does this have to do with multi-cloud well today you kind of have a similar situation with dominant public cloud leaders like AWS and azure and in this analogy they are the proprietary siloed networks of the past like IBM and digital they're more open obviously but still ultimately customers are going to put workloads on the right cloud for the right job and that includes putting work on Prem and connecting it to the public cloud with call it a substantially similar and ideally identical experience that's what we call hybrid now that's today's big wave and you're seeing it with Amazon's outposts and VMware and Amazon and Azure stack etc so while all this hybrid action is getting wired up customers are putting work into AWS and Azure and certainly Google and IBM cloud and the Oracle cloud and so forth now customers are wanting to connect across clouds with a substantially similar experience because that reduces cost and of course it speeds business outcomes that's what we call multi cloud now I'm not by any means suggesting that Amazon and Microsoft are gonna go the way of the mini computer vendors I don't believe that I think leaders today are much more savvy and tuned into how to surf the waves they're more paranoid and they're frankly just smarter than back in the 70s and 80s but it's not a rite of passage if they ignore the trends they will face challenges that could become driftwood so you're seeing the emergence of some of the moves from the vendor crowd the big whales connecting their infrastructure like AWS and VMware and Microsoft and Oracle quite interesting and IBM Red Hat with everybody cisco Dell HPE with everyone Google with anthos and a lot of other players all are trying to stake a claim in this hybrid and multi cloud world but you also have these emerging players that are innovators companies like CrowdStrike in security cumulant in the backup space and many dozens of well-funded players looking to grab a share of this multi cloud pie and it's worth pointing out that they're all kind of going gaga over kubernetes now of course this makes sense because kubernetes has emerged as a standard it's certainly very popular with developers why because it enables portability and allows them to package applications and of course all they're related to tendencies around those applications and then hand that app off for testing or deployment and it's gonna behave in the exact same way as when they ran it locally this we've seen and we know this but I want to share something I had a great conversation with Bernard golden yesterday and he made an excellent point about well you know kubernetes and containers he said this portability is a necessary but insufficient condition for multi cloud to succeed you still have to have an integrated management approach to security ID management monitoring performance reporting and end get into cross-training of people and skills etc ok I want to shift gears and as always I want to dig into these segments and bring in the et our perspective now pretty sure ETR is a lot of data on multi cloud from their ven meetings and other surveys but what I've done today is pulled some data that I'm using is indicators or proxies for multi cloud so I can't go out and buy me some multi cloud today it doesn't really exist in that form so what we have to do is highlight some of the trends in the data and draw some inferences from that so let's take a look at this chart what it shows is the relative position of a number of companies that my view are participating in the multi cloud arena the chart plots these companies showing net score or remember spending momentum on the y-axis and we've just opposed that to what's called market share on the x-axis market share is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set and what we've done is we've filtered on three sectors cloud container orchestration and container platforms using that as a proxy for multi cloud so these are buyers 791 of them as you can see by the end who are spenders in these three areas and we're isolating on select group of names and as a last filter we selected only companies with 50 or more results in the data set from this survey and we're using this as a multi cloud sector proxy so let me make a couple of comments here first I know kubernetes is not a company but ETR captures spending on kubernetes it's one of the hottest areas in the data set with a nearly 82% net score so we're capturing that as a reference point the next thing I want to say is you can see the big cloud players Azure and AWS and once again as in previous breaking analysis segments we see those two look they're leaders they're out the lead both companies showing very very strong momentum from a net score standpoint now AWS you might say why are you including a diversity if they don't explicitly have a multi cloud offering but in my view you cannot talk about multi cloud without including the leading cloud supplier you also see Google not so much in the market share of the big two but Google's showing strong net score we've talked about that before and they're very well positioned in multi cloud with anthos there behind their playing cloud agnostic to try to catch up again remember this is a proxy that we are running it's not necessarily a reflection of firms specific multi cloud offerings it's an indicator based on the filters that we've run now let's take a look at some of the others rubric the data protection specialists and CrowdStrike was a security darling they show some real strengths both have multi cloud offerings and they have strategies around their look at how she Corp they stand out as an important player in our view as they provide developer tooling to run secure and and deploy applications across clouds VMware cloud is I believe it's a vfc VMware cloud foundation and it's right there in the mix and you can also see fortunate in there as well executing from a security position I talked about them last week in my braking analysis they have a nice cloud portfolio and they're benefiting from execution strong execution let me call your attention to IBM in Red Hat Red Hat OpenShift look at their respective positions on this chart IBM spending velocity or net score is low but Red Hat has quite strong spending velocity and this is CEO Arvind Krishna's opportunity leverage IBM's large install based presence shown here as market share or pervasiveness and bring red hat to the right and leverage open shifts coolness to increase IBM's relevance and elevate it elevated spending velocity if arvind can make the kind of progress that i'm showing here in this picture he'll end up being CEO of the decade but that really is IBM's opportunity you can also see I put Oracle in the chart as well because of their multi cloud relationship with Microsoft which which I actually think has great potential for running mission-critical Oracle databases as I've noted many times I've you know IBM and Oracle both have clouds they're in the cloud game there are hyper scalar clouds but they have very large installed software franchises why is that important because it insulates them from the I ass ix knife fight and the pricing pressures that are putting forth by the hyper scalars the finally I have to mention Cisco I've said many times comes at multi cloud from a position of strength and networking and of course security they've got a huge market presence and not without challenges but they clearly are a player here ok now let's go on and look at some similar proxy data basically the same cut isolated on a few big players participating in multi cloud so again same cut as before but this is this shows a time series isolating on some of those Biggie's showing their net score or spending momentum in cloud and container related sectors that I talked about you got Azure leading GCP showing momentum IBM Red Hat with open shift and VMware all with solid net scores that are in the green cisco not as strong from a net score or spending velocity standpoint but it's shared in or presence in the data set is significant in this cut so two takeaways here really are one this is a wide-open race it's jump ball you really can't pick a winner yet and to each is gonna come at this from their own unique position of strength which brings me to how we see this space evolving this simple chart here really shows how we see the multi cloud infrastructure stack emerging starting at the bottom we show in the stack networking you gotta have networking to cross connect clouds and this is where cisco you has to win the day not optional for them some big players are going after the control plane including Microsoft arc Google with anthos VMware with tans ooh IBM Red Hat and we think eventually AWS is a possibility to enter that game on the data plane you got some big whales like Dell EMC you got NetApp you've got HPE at IBM the big storage players as well you have specialists like pure who's doing some interesting things in block in the cloud and cumulonimbus mention you have a bunch of companies like Veritas cohesive the rubric vMac TIFIA is gonna be in there CommVault I mentioned Klum EO before IBM is another one you got a whole bunch of folks in networking big portfolio plays from the likes of Cisco I said to network I met security from Cisco Palo Alto fortunate along with many of the security specialists we've highlighted in the past like CrowdStrike and there are many many others now on the leftmost side of this chart is really interesting we showed the full stack interconnects here we're referring to the direct cloud to cloud connections in functions up and down the entire stack examples here are AWS VMware yes that hybrid but also emerging at the edge and Microsoft and Oracle so the bottom line is we're seeing a battle brewing between the big companies with larger appetites gobbling up major portions of the market with integrated suites that are playing out within each layer of the stack competing with smaller and nimble players that are delivering best to breed function along those stack layers all right let me summarize so here are the questions that I said I would answer let's see how I did what the heck is multi cloud well let me first say it feels like everything in IT is additive what do I mean by that well we never get rid of stuff you keep things forever think about it the typical enterprise has multiple data centers they get many SAS providers more likely they have you know more than one Iast provider and they're starting to think about what should I do with the edge there is no standard for hybrid or multi cloud deployments you talk to 100 customers and you're gonna hear 120 or 150 or 300 different environments and several orders of magnitude of challenges that they face do we really need multi-cloud not an ideal world no we wouldn't need multi cloud but we talked about how we got here earlier how real is it how real is multi cloud now look companies use multiple clouds it's is it easy to do things across scope these clouds no so it's one of these problems that the industry is created that it can now make money fixing it's a vicious cycle I know but so goes the enterprise IT business what problems does it does multi-cloud solve and create look the goal of multi cloud should be that it creates more value than just the sum of the individual parts and that is clearly not happening yet in my opinion moving data around is a problem so ultimately the value comes from being able to bring cloud services to data that resides all over the place and as Bernard golden implied even with kubernetes the experience is far from seamless so we understand that technology created this problem and IT people processes and technology will be asked to clean up the crime scene as I often say it's a common story in enterprise tech we talked about how multi-cloud will evolve along a stack that it comprises specialists and big companies with very big appetites my opinion is that multi-cloud will evolve as a mishmash and vendor relationships the right tools for the right job the edge IT and OT tensions mergers and acquisitions these are gonna create even a bigger mess down the road we have well-funded companies that are exceedingly capable in this business and the leaders are gonna get their fair share cloud is a trillion-dollar market opportunity and there will not be in my opinion a winner-take-all and multi cloud so who wins like I've tried to lay out some of the leaders within different parts of the stack but there's way more to this story I do believe that the cloud players are well positioned why cuz they're they invented cloud EWS and others who followed right now Microsoft and Google are playing actively in that market but I definitely think AWS will I that space but I think VMware Red Hat IBM Cisco etc some of this from the respective positions of strength and I've sort of they have the added benefit of being cloud semi agnostic because generally they're not wed to a hyper scale cloud you know IBM as a cloud oracle as a cloud but it's on a hyper scale cloud and as always there's specialists that are gonna solve problems that are too small initially for the big whales to see so they get a leader lead bleed to market advantage but those opportunities can grow over time and allow these guys to reach escape velocity now so I'll say multi-cloud in and of itself is I believe an opportunity one that will be attacked from a position of strength within the stack and there are opportunities to be specialists up and down that stack the Akashi Corp alright this is Dave Volante for wiki bonds cube insights powered by ETR thanks for watching this breaking analysis and remember these episodes are available as podcasts you can check it out as you're driving your car wherever you listen to two podcasts you can connect with me at David Villante at Silicon angle calm or at D Volante on Twitter or please comment on my LinkedIn posts thanks for watching everyone we'll see you next time [Music]

>> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, we are wrapping up day three of Microsoft Ignite here in Orlando, Florida. CUBE's live coverage, I'm your host Rebecca Knight, along with Stu Miniman, my esteemed cohost for these past three days, it's been fun working with you, Stu. >> Rebecca, it's been a great show, real excited. Our first time at a Microsoft show and it's a big one. I mean, the crowds are phenomenal. Great energy at the show and yeah, it's been great breaking down this ecosystem with you. >> So, three days, what do we know, what did you learn, what is your big takeaway, what are you going to to go back to Boston with? >> You know, it's interesting, we've been all talking and people that I know that have been here a couple of years, I've talked to people that have been at this show for decades, this is a different show. There's actually a friend of mine said, he's like, "Well look, Windows pays the bills for a lot of companies." There's a lot of people that all the Windows components, that's their job. I mean, I think back through my career when I was on the vendor side, how many rollouts of Exchange and SharePoint and all these things we've done over the years. Office 365 been a massive wave that we watched. So Microsoft has a broad portfolio and they've got three anchor shows. I was talking with one of the partners here and he's like, "You know, there's not a lot of channel people "at this event, at VMworld there's a lot of channel people." I'm like, "Well yeah because there's a separate show "that Microsoft has for them." You and I were talking at an earlier analytics session with Patrick Moorhead and he said, "You know when I look at the buy versus build, "a lot of these people are buying and I don't "feel I have as many builders." Oh wait, what's that other show that they have in the Spring, it's called Microsoft Build. A lot of the developers have moved there so it's a big ecosystem, Microsoft has a lot of products. Everything from, my son's excited about a lot of the Xbox stuff that they have here. Heck, a bunch of our crew was pickin' up Xbox sweatshirts while they're here. But a lot has changed, as Tim Crawford said, this is a very, it feels like a different Microsoft, than it even was 12 or 24 months ago. They're innovating, so look at how fast Microsoft moves and some of these things. There's good energy, people are happy and it's still trying to, you know. It's interesting, I definitely learned a lot at this show even though it wasn't the most sparkly or shiny but that's not necessarily a bad thing. >> Right, I mean, I think as you made a great point about just how integral Microsoft is to all of our lives as consumers, as enterprise, the Xbox, the Windows, the data storage, there's just so much that Microsoft does that if we were to take away Microsoft, I can't even imagine what life would be like. What have been your favorite guests? I mean, we've had so many really, really interesting people. Customers, we've had partners, we're going to have a VC. What are some of the most exciting things you've heard? >> Yeah, it's interesting, we've had Jeffrey Snover on the program a couple of years ago and obviously a very smart person here. But at this show, in his ecosystem, I mean, he created PowerShell. And so many people is like, I built my career off of what he did and this product that he launched back in 2001. But we talked a little bit about PowerShell with him but then we were talking about Edge and the Edge Boxes and AI and all those things, it's like this is really awesome stuff. And help connecting the dots to where we hid. So obviously, big name guest star, always, and I always love talking to the customers. The thing I've been looking at the last couple of years is how all of these players fit into a multicloud world. And Microsoft, if you talk about digital transformation, and you talk about who will customers turn to to help them in this multicloud world. Well, I don't think there's any company that is closer to companies applications across the spectrum of options. Office 365 and other options in SaaS, all the private cloud things, you start with Windows Server, you've got Windows on the desktop, Windows on the server. Virtualization, they're starting to do hyperconversion everything, even deeper. As well as all the public cloud with Azure and developers. I talked to the Azure functions team while I was here. Such breadth and depth of offering that Microsoft is uniquely positioned to play in a lot of those areas even if, as I said, certain areas if the latest in data there might be some other company, Google, Amazon, well positioned there. We had a good discussion Bernard Golden, who's with Capital One, gave us some good commentary on where Alibaba fits in the global scheme. So, nice broad ecosystem, and I learned a lot and I know resonated with both of us, the "you want to be a learn it all, not a know it all." And I think people that are in that mindset, this was a great show for them. >> Well, you bring up the mindset, and that is something that Satya Nadella is really such a proponent of. He says that we need to have a growth mindset. This is off of the Carol Dweck and Angela Duckworth research that talks about how important that is, how important continual learning is for success. And that is success in life and success on the job and organization success and I think that that is something that we are also really picked up on. This is the vibe of Microsoft, this is a company, Satya Nadella's leadership, talking to so many of the employees, and these are employees who've been there for decades, these are people who are really making their career, and they said, "Yeah, I been here 20 years, if I had my way, "I'll be here another 30." But the point is that people have really recommitted to Microsoft, I feel. And that's really something interesting to see, especially in the tech industry where people, millennials especially, stay a couple years and then move on to the next shiny, new thing. >> Yeah, there was one of our first guests on for Microsoft said that, "Been there 20 years and what is different about "the Satya Nadella Microsoft to the others is "we're closer and listening even more to our customers." We talk about co-creation, talk about how do we engage. Microsoft is focusing even deeper on industries. So that's really interesting. An area that I wanted to learn a little bit more about is we've been talking about Azure Stack for a number of years, we've been talking about how people are modernizing their data center. I actually had something click with me this week because when I look at Azure Stack, it reminds me of solutions I helped build with converged infrastructure and I was a big proponent of the hyper-converged infrastructure wave. And what you heard over and over again, especially from Microsoft people, is I shouldn't think of Azure Stack in that continuum. Really, Azure Stack is not from the modernization out but really from the cloud in. This is the operating model of Azure. And of course it's in the name, it's Azure, but when I looked at it and said, "Oh, well I've got partners like "Lenovo and Dell and HPE and Sysco." Building this isn't this just the next generation of platform there? But really, it's the Azure model, it's the Azure operating stack, and that is what it has. And it's more, WSSD is their solution for the converged and then what they're doing with Windows Server 2019 is the hyper-converged. Those the models that we just simplify what was happening in the data center and it's similar but a little bit different when we go to things like Azure and Azure Stack and leads to something that I wanted to get your feedback on. You talk business productivity because when we talk to companies like Nutanix, we talk to companies like Cohesity who we really appreciate their support bringing us here, giving us this great thing right in the center of it, they talk about giving people back their nights and weekends, giving them back time, because they're an easy button for a lot of things, they help make the infrastructure invisible and allow that. Microsoft says we're going to try to give you five to ten percent back of your business productivity, going to allow you to focus on things like AI and your data rather than all the kind of underlying spaghetti underneath. What's your take on the business productivity piece of things? >> I mean, I'm in favor of it; it is a laudable goal. If I can have five to ten percent of my day back of just sort of not doing the boring admin stuff, I would love that. Is it going to work, I don't know. I mean, the fact of the matter is I really applaud what Cohesity said and the customers and the fact that people are getting, yes, time back in their day to focus on the more creative projects, the more stimulating challenges that they face, but also just time back in their lives to spend with their children and their spouse and doing whatever they want to do. So those are really critical things, and those are critical things to employee satisfaction. We know, a vast body of research shows, how much work life balance is important to employees coming to their office or working remotely and doing their best work. They need time to recharge and rest and so if Microsoft can pull that off, wow, more power to them. >> And the other thing I'll add to that is if you, say, if you want that work life balance and you want to be fulfilled in your job, a lot of times what we're getting rid of is some of those underlying, those menial tasks the stuff that you didn't love doing in the first place. And what you're going to have more time to do, and every end user that we talked to says, "By the way, I'm not getting put out of a job, "I've got plenty of other tasks I could do." And those new tasks are really tying back to what the business needs. Because business and IT, they need to tie together, they need to work together, it is a partnership there. Because if IT can't deliver what the business needs, there's other alternatives, that's what Stealth IT was and the public cloud could be. And Microsoft really positions things as we're going to help you work through that transition and get there to work on these environments. >> I want to bring up another priority of Microsoft's and that is diversity. So that is another track here, there's a lot of participants who are learning about diversity in tech. It's not a good place right now, we know that. The tech industry is way too male, way too white. And Satya Nadella, along with a lot of other tech industry leaders, has said we need more underrepresented minorities, we need more women, not only as employees but also in leadership positions. Bev Crair, who was on here yesterday, she's from Lenovo. She said that things are starting to change because women are buying a lot of the tech and so that is going to force changes. What do you think, do you buy it? >> And I do, and here's where I'd say companies like Lenovo and Microsoft, when you talk about who makes decisions and how are decisions made, these are global companies. Big difference between a multi-national company or a company that's headquartered in Silicon Valley or Seattle or anything versus a global company. You look at both of those companies, they have, they are working not just to localize but have development around the world, have their teams that are listening to requirements, understand what is needed in those environments. Going back to what we talked about before, different industries, different geographies, and different cultures, we need to be able to fit and work and have products that work in those environments, everything. I think it was Bev that talked about, even when we think about what color lights. Well, you know, oh well default will use green and red. Well, in different cultures, those have different meanings. So yeah, it is, it's something that definitely I've heard the last five to ten years of my career that people understand that, it's not just, in the United States, it can't just be the US or Silicon Valley creating great technology and delivering that device all the way around the world. It needs to be something that is globally developed, that co-creation, and more, and hopefully we're making progress on the diversity front. We definitely try to do all we can to bring in diverse voices. I was glad we had a gentleman from Italy shouting back to his daughters that were watching it. We had a number of diverse guests from a geography, from a gender, from ethnicity, on the program and always trying to give those various viewpoints on theCUBE. >> I want to ask you about the show itself: the 30,000 people from 5,000 different organizations around the globe have convened here at the Orange County Convention Center, what do you think? >> Yeah, so it was impressive. We go to a lot of shows, I've been to bigger shows. Amazon Reinvent was almost 50,000 last year. I've been to Oracle OpenWorld, it's like takes over San Francisco, 60 or 70,000. This convention center is so sprawling, it's not my favorite convention center, but at least the humidity is to make sure I don't get dried out like Las Vegas. But logistics have run really well, the food has not been a complaint, it's been good, the show floor has been bustling and sessions are going well. I was talking to a guy at breakfast this morning that was like, "Oh yeah, I'm a speaker, "I'm doing a session 12 times." I'm like, "You're not speaking on the same thing 12 times?" He's like, "No, no it's a demo and hands on lab." I'm like, "Oh, of course." So they make sure that you have lots of different times to be able to do what you want. There is so much that people want to see. The good news is that they can go watch the replays of almost all of them online. Even the demos are usually something that they're cloud enabled and they get on live. And of course we help to bring a lot of this back to them to give them a taste of what's there. All of our stuff's always available on the website of thecube.net. This one, actually, this interview goes up on a podcast we call theCUBE Insights. So please, our audience, we ask you, whether it's iTunes or your favorite podcast reader, go to Spotify, theCUBE Insights. You can get a key analysis from every show that we do, we put that up there and that's kind of a tease to let you go to thecube.net and see the hundreds and thousands of interviews that we do across all of our shows. >> Great, and I want to give a final, second shout out to Cohesity, it's been so fun having them, being in the Cohesity booth, and having a lot of great Cohesity people around. >> Yeah, absolutely, I mean, so much I wish we could spend a little more time even. AI, if we go back to the keynote analysis then, but you can watch that, I can talk about the research we've done, and said how the end user information that Microsoft can get access to to help people when you talk about what they have, the TouchPoint to Microsoft Office. And even things like Xbox, down to the consumer side, to understand, have a position in the marketplace that really is unparalleled if you look at kind of the breadth and depth that Microsoft has. So yeah, big thanks to Cohesity, our other sponsors of the program that help allow us to bring this great content out to our community, and big shout out I have to give out to the community too. First time we've done this show, I reached out to all my connections and the community reached back, helped bring us a lot of great guests. I learned a lot: Cosmos DB, all the SQL stuff, all the Office and Microsoft 365, so much. My brain's full leaving this show and it's been a real pleasure. >> Great, I agree, Stu, and thank you so much to Microsoft, thank you to the crew, this has been a really fun time. We will have more coming up from the Orange County Civic Center, Microsoft Ignite. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman, we will see you in just a little bit. (digital music)

this is the cute live from the Moscone Center in San Francisco this is silicon angles continuous coverage a vm world 2010 now inside the cube we're back to continuous coverage of vm world 2010 live I'm John Ferrier from SiliconANGLE we are in the cube the cube is a broad social media broadcast that acquires knowledge and this segment is going to be very fun we have a group of entrepreneurs part of the cloud computing club that I'm proud to say that I was one of the cofounders of with Nate DeMarco and James waters and these guys have been in the trenches from cloud from the beginning and like to introduce to my left is rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias so these guys are entrepreneurs they've been out in the field ton of experience in the business cloud has arrived they were there at the beginning so we're going to share our experiences about why the cloud is so big and relevant and entrepreneurship what are the opportunities for startups because there is a lot of opportunity vmware is putting forth the framework that is going to enable a lot of growth and we heard from todd nielsen that for every dollar of vmware licenses may be about fifteen dollars of ecosystem money so that that's money and the VC panel we had here on Wednesday was talking about huge dollars going into cloud so we're gonna get the reality of kind of what's real some proof points and so the first question will go right down the line will start with rich what is the reality of cloud and just at a high level the entrepreneurial opportunities it's a shift it's big it's relevant is happening right now and we're on the scene here at Moscone well there are two there are two baskets as i see it entrepreneurially you're looking at cloud backward taking what's existing a lot of legacy stuff making it work appropriately making it work the way you'd like it to work in a cloud getting all the benefits then huge entrepreneurial opportunities cloud forward building new apps green field all things web web app looking at this as a you know doing new things not trying to repeat the old and if you drop them into those two categories Enterprise is paying first for the legacy but where the the real fun is and where the entrepreneurs really start to kind of converge is on the cloud forward stuff cloud for a great message good angle there Bernard what's your angle on this well we we see a lot going on in apps I was in a breakfast this morning basically the whole message the whole theme was apps kind of driving everything which is interesting because kind of change from a lot of IT organizations traditionally been very infrastructure focused so a lot of stuff around apps and stuff that helps apps the other thing that came out of that breakfast was a lot about cloud management how do you manage these environments how do you manage a lot of discussion about end-to-end management instead of siloed management for sure there's great opportunity there I don't know how to solve the problem with this great opportunity around that Randy you're Randy you got a growing business right now you started as an entrepreneur and you grew a business you're growing like crazy you're at you're on the doorstep of all the cloud scaling cloud scaling calm is your organization talk about your experience and what you see going forward vast majority the wisdom transition look at our engagements were basically they're really looking at ways to generate I think sort of continued consolidation business so the ecosystem is growing there's a lot of people out there in the trenches deploying as vmware change with this vm world this week I mean what's different and what are you guys seeing from your customers and prospective customers in the environment out there and what are the key issues holding things back or what are the key issues that are going to accelerate real cloud deployments and and and cloud service providers are part of this show too and that's a new dynamic we're seeing well one of the things that's pretty obvious about this show and kind of you could almost draw a bright line over the course of the last year or 18 months is that now we're no longer talking as much about infrastructure getting that right whether it's in the public cloud or in the enterprise today we're talking about platform and not so much platform as a service but here what you're looking at is the constructor construction kits the piece parts by which you start putting together platforms and then specific software applications that are cloud oriented this show and both the influence of spring vfabric all of that the cloud the director all of that starting to look at moving up the food chain much more about platform much more about the construction of applications on a scale of one to ten rich real deal ten being real deal with the spring source framework or zero non-starter spring oh that it's already in the bag it's it is done deal this is a real deal what we have here is the beginnings of truly platforms whether they're built inside the the enterprise or platforms as a service the construction kits for real applications absolutely Bernard hyper Stratus you're out talking to customers all the time and they got challenges said walk through some of your experiences with your clients and the marketplace well what I'll say is that what we hear about a lot what we work on a lot is security a lot of companies saying how do I secure my app particularly in a public cloud environment what do we do around that something that's a kind of a second order is we get called in a lot with companies say I put my app application up in a public cloud and the magic supposed to be that's scalable how come my apps not scaling and then we end up doing a lot of architecture re working so I think architecture is a big deal this is a if you want to take advantage of cloud computing characteristics your application must be ready to do that so I think that's that's the true drill down on the architecture thing that's not scaling thing just expand on that a little bit well what are the issues there well you know the vision is somehow automatically load goes up and the application star spawns at extra resources extra instances in the past the way that happened was you maybe had to provision hardware and then admin had to sort of go in and reconfigure everything the application that we brought down brought back up if you want to move that from a hands-on thing to an auto magically kind of thing your application has to be written such that it can gracefully add and subtract resources you have to have a management framework that supports that and you know those are new kinds of things basically because the old model was very static very hands-on so those kinds of challenges or concerns that we run into a lot Randy you're getting your hands dirty out there are you stitching all these things together and and you got a lot of successes talk about your experiences and you know things you've learned that were surprises and things that were not surprises and and challenge is going to going forward optimization the true pioneers in cloud computing their folks like Amazon and Google and what they have really pioneered is operating in massive scale I mean movie from enterprise computing cloud computing is like moving from the assembly line mechanism for manufacturing cars to the robotics factory mechanism for manufacturing cars it's very very different if you actually look in Amazon at Amazon's operations team there's two core components infrastructure engineering which writes software that automates hardware and data center operations which changes out the hardware and there's nobody in between just like in a robotics factory for cars you have people who design the robotics in the factory and you have the people who do QA on the line and meet and do maintenance on the robots and there's really nobody in between and so that when you go and you look at these guys and what that means and you talk about scalability like Bernards talking about you'll notice that somebody like Google has a huge number of sort of horizontal services something like Google FS or big table and MapReduce which are sort of these horizontal services across the entire data center that every single application leverages and that's how a single application for google is able to get skill but when you look into an enterprise data center every single application is its own silo sometimes all the way through it down through the network in the storage and that's why that's part of the reason why it's difficult to scale there are also application architectural constraints of course which and you know somebody like Bernard can help you out with but you know the fundamental way that you're actually designing the data center and how you provide horizontal services it was also what's going to enable true platform as a service to work on top of any infrastructure as a service so if you if you kind of ignore one to the detriment together if you don't build the infrastructure as a service right with those horizontal service layers then you can't really do the rest of the job we had we had the cube down in orlando for SI p event we had the cio of levi strauss tom peck on and one of the things that came out of that conversation randy was busting down the silos and he absolutely saying you know from his organization sample he wants to bus down those silos what can you share I mean you're in there you're busting down silos with your team what's what's the team configuration like what's the dynamic and just what are some of the conversations that you have I mean people like hey we love you and all sudden we can't do that I mean we've talked at the cloud clubs about yeah some of the politics and is it just riff on that a little bit it's gonna be scary you sure you want me to go there yeah go ahead we bring it out on the cube in our most successful engagements we basically sidelined the CIO and his entire stack because they wanted to do Enterprise competing with a cloud label on top of it instead of real cloud computing and they were obstructionist and they did not know how to decide eyes themselves I mean if you think about it Enterprise IT has a centralized department has has effectively been a monopoly inside of that each of those enterprises for 30 years and they do not understand how to fix their own Monopoly and the only way that you break down a monopoly is through competition and through funding those successful competitors that's part of why you see salesforce com being so successful marketplace their core competition for the longest time was internal implementations a CRM and so if you really want to build the real deal cloud today you've either got to have a CIO who's a visionary and is willing to make significant dramatic changes to the organization or you have to sideline the CIO and a stack and you actually have to go rogue and you have to build out a whole separate cloud division build out true cloud computing there and then somehow roll that back in or roll IT under it at a later date how do entrepreneurs out there learn from that so what would you share aussie sideline the CIO is always kind of a robe it's not a real long term strategy but you know you want to get the CIO there but what you're basically saying is is that CIOs are doing it because they're bunder pressure CFO cio is under pressure and the saying you just do cloud and they want to go cloud but the monopoly if you will kind of like an old mainframe mindset is pushing back and what they'll do is they'll throw some cloud out there and call it cloud right is that what you saying and they're not really doing real clout is that what you're saying I'm saying that just running just providing virtual servers on demand is not a cloud and if you look at the bar that in Amazon or Google or the pioneers in cloud or set it's about very low friction self-service IT capabilities which can only be delivered through automation and you know i'll tell you a brief story about a colleague of mine who's now at VMware and I want to mention name he was at credit suisse they built one of the first real deal clouds there five years ago and as soon as they had it up as saucers portal in UI and API and everything soon as they brought it up they put in a ticket wall because the IT support staff felt threatened that people could turn on their own servers and they didn't want them to so they said fill out a ticket and then we'll use your password and you hurt me and your credentials to turn on a server for you so that that's the sort of mindset facade was needed to keep the heat shield almost from the attacks right from the sabotage that was yet it's not so much sabotage it's you know any organization that builds up is going to send out the antibodies when ever you put something really distinctive and new in it and to Randy's point and actually to Barnard's about architecture if you try to take the way things have been built up until now and just drop them into a set of virtualized servers and say that's cloud it isn't it's basically taking a and creating a virtual version of your old data center that's not going to get you where you want to go okay so so play out how you think it's going to go down you guys think it's gonna be organically bottom-up or top down or both I mean how is this goes like client-server kind of evolved that way you know some pcs were hanging around lands came around so is it going to be a slow roll can or Big Bang I was a very interesting I heard a guy from Forrester this morning talked and he said and if you might know Forrester came out with a report not too long ago that was something like building your own private cloud it's a pipe dream or is it like it's much harder than you might expect and the interesting stat that he came out with was if you ask enterprise developers something like twenty five percent of them are doing cloud-based stuff typically an Amazon if you go to the infrastructure group something like six percent of them say oh yeah we're doing something around cloud and that told me two things one there's a lot of stuff going on that is stealthy or semi stealthy and the second is there's a big bow wave of stuff that's being done up in some public provider that's going to somehow go into production and I don't that going to go in production that public provider or if eventually the development team is going to come back to the ops team and say I've got a gift for you I'd like you to start running it and by the way it's designed as a cloud its architects as a cloud and you need to have the infrastructure to support them so it's ready you open the open the president I happen to have a cloud right here is that way well so it's a very part of me that was a very interesting set of stats because that implies there's a lot of impending change kept going coming down the road toward internal IT groups well we've talked about bursting out you know taking the enterprise and bursting out to the cloud a lot of the app development a lot of the the pre-production versions of these apps exist in the cloud and what's going to happen is as soon as you open the door and people are feeling safe enough it's going to be inbound not bursting out it's going to be bursting in Randy one of the one of the things I'm hearing is that data security is the number one issue around cloud can you talk a little bit about that from your experience so I is that true or is it not true I think it's a little overblown I mean security is definitely a concern I mean it would be you would be foolish not to be concerned about it but I think you are going to take the same steps you would if you are going to use now its source data center facility managed hosting I mean it's not there I think one of the things that's really humorous about this is people get really worried about the hypervisor when the hypervisors are relatively proven relatively secure technology but then they ignore things like vlans which are completely unauthenticated and everybody assumes are secure but in actually a cloud environment they're far less secure so there's there's a weird disconnect between what is a real security issue in the cloud and what people's concerns are because they don't understand the underlying technologies or structure so much and then when you look at some of the folks who are building certain offerings there are kind of on demand private cloud offerings that people are working on we're not going to share your server and pretty much all those issues go away and so it's just it's really it it's not some things have changed most of remain the same if you if you take your scent your same kinds of what that you go about enforcing security today behind the firewall and bring them out to the cloud they mostly translate actually and not to confuse the issue you've got security and then you've got the pragmatic issues of compliance most of these people most of these organizations live under a cloud you'll pardon the expression which is their requirement to be compliant with various kinds of regulation whether it's defined by the industry by the enterprise regulatory and being compliant means hitting the checklist those checklists have been built on the back of last generations architectures last generations technologies how do you determine whether a cloud implementation of a production app is compliant these guys are very conservative if there's any risk of not meeting compliance well that's a big message out your way that was a big message here for VMware in this hybrid cloud was that compliance is was one of the things that they were wrapping around that I mean is that a real deal is that going to be good is that going to be no thank you i think compliance has to change not so much the technology i mean really what do we think is is valid and all of these aspects of compliance have got to be revisited so I was doing security before a lot of the regulations went in for compliance and in the early days kind of mid 90s and the focus was around actually building secure systems and there's a certain amount of best practices that came out of that and then those were codified into a lot of the regulations and those those codifications of those best practices are about 10 or 15 years old a lot of the time and so the way that they don't translate to the cloud is if you just take them you know peace if you just say look we have to have a perimeter firewall you're on a cloud where are you going to put your perimeter firewall right no parameter right but you know should you have host-based firewall should you have an intrusion detection yet all of that trans the problem is is that you have to you know we've been moving away from a perimeter eyes dworld for 15-plus years but you still see a lot of organization security organizations that don't know how to provide real deal security you know clinging to what's easiest as opposed to trying to figure out what is real security how does that mesh with the compliance requirements they have and coming up with a strategy then that melds those two and most of those strategies will actually translate directly to the cloud because it's about bringing the security closer to the data absolutely one of the things that's happening here guys is cloud service providers are very visible in the announcements and it's-- changing and that IT can provide the kinds of services that cloud service providers can provide and dave vellante Wikibon and i were talking about well that might not be true that cloud surprise will always stay at a bit of head we had verizon on yesterday talking about some of their things is the cloud service provider model going to be a head of IT and will that be the security compliance component of IT how do you guys see the whole cloud service provider evolving all the above observations predictions it to believe that somebody like Verizon is at the leading edge of winning God services is but I don't want to dig on them too much but it is it makes sense if you if you actually look at the leader that's amazon and in 2009 amazon had 43 major releases for per month who can keep up with that pace right Google Yahoo maybe Microsoft but certainly not any of the major telcos service riders are not geared up to be software development or featured delivery shops and the same can be said of most IT department so you look at any of these projects as being you know two to three-year kinds of engagements that you know they're going to do six to nine months of due diligence on in our engagement and with the largest telco in Korea one of the largest in asia pac we stood up their private cloud in eight weeks eight weeks soup to nuts so so what's the prediction on the viability and position of the product the answers providers they you guys have to get in the game they've got they've got to build out more capabilities and they've got to stop worrying about the virtualization piece which is trivial and start thinking about the portfolio services that run on top of that platform is a surface ice cream mobile device offerings integration to 3g and wireless systems enabling new mobile apps social media apps they've really got to think about how what's the new set of cloud applications that's driving Amazon to 80,000 servers and more than half a million VMs in four years time what is that I mean the enterprise is not adopting right now these guys are going to get in the game by actually going to where the fire is not where the smoke is and then they better actually build you know cloud class systems in the same way that Amazon or Google does and they've got have ecosystem of services that actually allows them to be competitive on a portfolio basis not on a virtual machine-based right and they'll probably really about that do you rain I don't feel strongly about it they'll they'll distinguish themselves on the basis of either markets they serve geographic markets industries or the collections of added value features that they lend us realized it okay final question to wrap up guys because I look at the clock a little bit long what is the outlook of cloud and just give your perspective you know just from your entrepreneurial position and also as a practitioner as a guru all of you guys are there in the trenches you're building businesses you're getting stuff done just share in your mind what this future will unroll to look like I mean will it really be game-changing what are some of the things that you may see which is a vision well if it already is a game change what the focus is right now for the next few years it's going to be all mm ops and apps I mean its operations making the management of the infrastructure work correctly and building the next generation but the cloud forward apps full stop Bernard where do you go from that I'm well or your perspective I mean you're there you're the thing that I that you know is there's no question my mind in five years or ten years we will look back on the way I T has been done with this kind of very manual very long time the way we look back on you know when you see a movie you see somebody hand crank in a car let's go absolutely no yeah that was quaint and that was good but there's a reason why we don't do it anyway dialing a phone and we're dialing a phone and so I for sure there's no question there's gonna be a lot of pain between now and your ex and that pain is going to be localized in two different groups but for sure this is this is the way I t's gonna be done in the future no question about that that this is the biggest disruption that there's been to the IT industry in 30 years and it will be a 20 year transition and if you look at how many mainframe companies are still standing in the same way that they were standing before you that just tells you the amount of opportunity there it is huge there are all kinds of ways for you to figure out parts of this this equation solutions for different parts of the problems here which are enormous is Bernard and rich can tell you I mean there's just a huge number of problems to solve here there's all kinds of clever ways that you can get in the game and you can be involved you could be part of the disruption rather than be part of the disrupted and that would be my key message disrupt don't be disrupted 30 years for disruption 20 years of growth will be covering it on cloud angle calm and SiliconANGLE com thanks guys so much rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias in the trenches true entrepreneurs been there done that from the beginning and now going to ride the wave so good luck with everything and we'll check back in with you thank you so much thanks John