>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, this is Dave Vellante with theCUBE and welcome to this conversation. With me is Anil Singhal, who is the CEO of NETSCOUT. Anil, it's a pleasure to speak with you today. Thanks so much for coming on the program. >> Thank you. >> So I want to talk a little bit about NETSCOUT. We're kind of at theCUBE, we're sort of enamored by founder-led companies. I mean, you started NETSCOUT right around the same time that I entered the tech business, and you remember back then it was an industry dominated by IBM, monolithic systems were the norm, in the form of mainframes, you had mini computers, PCs, and things like PC local area networks, they were in their infancy. In fact, most of the PCs, as you remember, they didn't even have hard disks in them. So I want to start with, what was it that you saw 35 years ago that led you to start NETSCOUT and at the time, did you even imagine that you'd be creating a company with a billion dollars worth of revenue and a much larger market cap? >> Well, certainly I had not imagined where we'll be right now, and we didn't know that this'll be the outcome. I mean, we just happened to be at the right place at the right time, but we did have a vision. Some of you had the feeling, we are enamored by networking, and we thought that network will be the business. In fact, our business card in 91 said, "Network is the business." And so somehow we got that right, and we said, these things will be connected. And overall, we found then that the IP convergence first in the enterprise in 90s, and then internet, and carriers moving from analog to digital, (indistinct) talk about digital transformation in last few years, but this has been going on for the last 30 years. And as we add what we were doing, become relevant to more and more people over time. For example, now even power companies use our product. And we have IoT devices coming in. So basically what we do is we said we are going to provide visibility through looking at the traffic, through the lens and the vantage point of the network. A lot of people think we are just doing network monitoring or had been doing that. But actually we use the network as a vantage point, which other people are not doing, most of the people have accidental data from devices as the basis of visibility. And that turned out to be very successful, but at some point, different points in our life, we became responsible for the market, not just for NETSCOUT. And that changed the shape of the company, and what we did and how we drove the innovation. >> I want to get into some of that, but I'm still really enamored of and fascinated by the beginnings. I mean, I worked for a founder-led, a chairman, a guy named Pat McGovern who built a media empire. He had these 10 sort of core principles, he used to test us on 'em, we'd carry around little note cards, things that today still serve us. You know, stay close to the customer, you know, keep the corporate staff lean, promote from within, respect for individuals, things that are drilled into your head. I wonder, you know, what are the principles that, you know, sometimes they become dogma, but they're good dogma. I don't mean that as a pejorative. What are the things that you built your business on, the principles that you're sort of most proud of? >> Well, I think there is, so there are five, in fact, we call some of these tenets our five tenets. We call this high ambition leadership, which is more than just about making money. And just like the US is the leader of the free world, we have a responsibility beyond US. Same way, NETSCOUT has a responsibility beyond our own company and revenue and our stakeholders. So with that in mind, we have these five things, which I think I wouldn't have been able to articulate that 20 years ago, like this. But they were always there. So firstly, there's guardians of the connected world, which you see it on our website, guardians care about their asset, it's not just about money. We are going to solve problems in the connected world, which nobody else is able to solve, or have the passion or have the resources and willpower to do it. So that's the overall theme of the company. Guardians of the connected world, connected world is changing, new problems are coming. Our goal is there are pros and cons of every new thing. Our goal is to remove all the cons so you can enjoy the pros. So that's guardian of the connected world. Then our mission is accelerate digital transformation, meaning remove the roadblocks. People are looking at enablers, but there are barriers also. How do you remove the barriers for our customers, so they can improve the fruits of digital transformation? For example, going to the cloud allows you to outsource some of us, especially in these times of agility and dependency, you can cut your costs, but that comes with a price that you lose control. So our product brings the control back. So now you can enjoy the pros and the cons and I call it sometimes how do you change the wheels of your car while driving? If you change four wheels, then car is going to fall down, but how do you put one wheel in the cloud? Well, that's what our vision is. Visibility without borders. We'll give you the same information, which is the third part. That's why we have this tagline and therefore the company. And then we have the mission, accelerating digital transformation, but our vision is visibility without borders. When you run your application, no matter where you run, we'll give you the same piece of information. That allows the people to make this migration transparent from a monitoring and visibility point of view. And then the fourth area is about our technology. We call it smart data technology, and the whole world is talking about artificial intelligence, machine learning. But what are you going to learn, is your AI really authentic or is it truly artificial? And that comes from smart data. Data is the oil of the new industry. That's the oil, and people are not focusing on that. They're saying, "I have lots of data," but you don't have the data which we have. In the past, we said, we are not going to share the data with third parties. And recently we have changed that, and say, "Yeah, there is a price for that. We'll do that." So we are branding ourselves as a smart data company, where the whole industry is talking about smart analytics. And I said, "We make smart people smarter." And lastly, the value system of NETSCOUT is called lean, but not mean, okay? Anybody can get lean. If you get fat, you can get the operation. But how do you do lean decision making so you never have to be in mean? Like NETSCOUT never had to lay off in the last 35 years, we have ups and down, our stock has gone to $3 and has gone to $40, but companies continued to invest, and that's why we have this reputation we have, whether it's (indistinct). The tenure at NETSCOUT is 10, 15 years minimum, even in sales, and people don't realize the power of that because some of our customers tell us, "Hey, your salespeople are around longer than our employees." And that (indistinct) builds a franchise of loyalty in the customer base. We underestimate that, this continuity part. So that in many aspect of not, what is the definition of not being mean, that lean and mean is sort of people are very proud of that. And I think you can be lean without being mean. And then how do you become lean, is don't hire when in good times, unless you need them. The reason people are able to do it, is because they think "I can fire anytime, so let's build up the fat." So there a lot of decision-making we do around this, and that's what I talk about in the book, it's not about technology, and this is, I would say is just one of the five tenets, but it's probably one of the most important ones. And it's one of the biggest differentiators of NETSCOUT. >> Well, it's obviously served you well, I mean, no layoffs in 35 years, the retention metric is very impressive. I mean, again, I go back to my experience. I was at IDG for 15 years. My passion was always to start my own company, but I didn't want to leave 'cause it was such a great culture, and it seems like you've created something similar. You know, I talk to CIOs and CTOs a lot too about, it's always people, process, technology. And of course we want to talk about tech 'cause we love talking about tech, but they always tell me, "Look, tech comes and goes," it's the processes that you put in place, the culture that you have in place, we could deal with the tech, and it sounds like you've created a similar dynamic. And I think back again, when you started, there were proprietary networks, it was IBM SNA, DEC network, every mini computer had its own network. Then, you know, TCP/IP came in and the whole world changed and exploded. But yet you said guardians of the connected world, and that's kind of been your focus from really day one. You know, I loved what you said about the business. The network is the business. Remember the network is the computer that Scott McNealy popularized. So really kind of a similar dynamic there. So it seems, Anil, that that framework that you just laid out, those core principles, have actually allowed you to ebb, to flow, to deal with stock prices and still retain people for very long periods of time. >> Maybe one more thing to add there is that on the lean but not, many talk about generalities. We don't look any different. Like everyone cares about happy customers. They care about happy employees and they care about happy stakeholders, shareholders. Everyone, including us. But what's the order? Where do you start? So we start with employees. We say happy employees, then we get happy customers. And then because of that, they buy more stuff and we create happy shareholders. Whereas if you start with happy shareholders, you may not get happy employees. And so all I'm saying is that everyone probably believes in what we are saying or what I'm saying, but how they implement it, and then like really walking the talk is the most important part. >> Well, I think you're right. I mean, I think the financials is a by-product of happy employees, which drive happy customers. If you take care of employees and customers, then good things will happen. If you start with trying to micromanage the finances. Of course, we all attempted to do that. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about, so just to bring it forward a little bit, we're talking about how NETSCOUT has essentially from a cultural standpoint, been able to withstand the ups, the downs, I mean, you've seen since, you know, it's over 35 years, a lot of the downturns and the tech softness, the tech bubbles, the great recession. Obviously now we're in the middle of a pandemic. And I wonder if you could talk to that specifically. So the data that we have from our survey partner, ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, shows that before the pandemic around 16% of employees worked from home, we're talking about truly remote workers, not, you know, a couple of days a week. And when we talk to CIOs today, they tell us it's well over 70% now, but they fully expect that when, you know, the world comes back to the new abnormal, I call it, that number's going to, that 16% is going to double to, more than double to 34%. So it puts stress on the network. It changes the direction of the traffic. It changes the security emphasis. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that just in terms of how you are helping your customers respond, specifically. >> So I always talk about like, is this a new problem or is the bad problem getting worse? So I contend that bad problem getting worse. So if you make the bad to zero, then you can't multiply. So I think it's highlighting some of the problems which are already there, are being highlighted by, a lot of people are telling, "Are you seeing more attacks?" No, we are becoming more conscious of the attacks we always had. We have more time, by the way, hackers have more time too, because they're also sitting at home doing things. So what I feel is that, two parts. One is that I think people should not, when the new normal comes, or new abnormal, then I think people should not make people work from home for the wrong reason. Certain people are saying, "Oh, I can save money." That's the wrong reason. But if it's efficient, we should do that. So we are doing some interesting things for home users to feel how they can feel that they're really working from the office. And so, yeah, there are some new challenges on how we monitor, because when the user complains now about the performance to IT, because they can't get their work, they don't know whether it's our network or is the ISP, or is their wifi network. So we try to provide the root cause analysis as quickly as possible, which we call mean time to know. And one of the things I didn't mention earlier, about what is the uniqueness of our technology when we use the network vantage point to drive visibility, it's almost like the blood test. When you have a problem, if you tell the doctor, I say "Hey, what is my problem?" And they start looking at all kinds of things. It's going to take forever. But if I take the blood test, I will know what the next thing to do. So in a way, we are doing the blood test of the user experience, security problems. And when we do that, we can come up with some very unique things. So we think that we'll be moving on into other areas, or the visibility is the means to an end, the end could be performance management, could be visibility, troubleshooting, and could be security forensics. Like blood tests can be used for DNA evidence also. And so we have all the technology, so we are moving on, as we move to the home user, we are applying that our techniques, not just for service assurance or end user experience monitoring, but also for security forensics. And one example I give you the, I always talk more than you'll see that in my book, being different before being better. First be different, get the ear flecks out of the ideas before you tell the story. And you don't do that, even though we are very big, we are very small compared to a lot of companies in the industry, compared to big players like Cisco, IBM, and all those. So the new thing which we are looking at in security is, the security industry is catching the act. We are going to catch the actors. If I can get into the, what they were doing before the act, before they did the ransomware, what were they doing? Well, that requires continuous monitoring of the traffic. And that's what we do. So when we do catch the actor, catching the thief, not what they're stealing, then you're preventing tomorrow's attack. And that's basically the innovation part of NETSCOUT, which we have been pushing for. But we somehow decided not to apply that to security because we had other problems to be solved as guardians of the connected world from a monitoring point of view. And so those are some of the things we'll be applying as we move forward. And I feel that those are equally applicable before the pandemic and after the pandemic. And it's just polarized more, because more people are working from home. >> It's interesting what you're saying about the blood test. That's a great analogy because it kind of eliminates the guesswork, and removes the opaqueness. It goes right to sort of the heart of the matter, you called it mean time to know. And it's interesting too, to look at productivity. I mentioned some of the survey work, when we talk to organizations, they say to us that actually productivity has gone up since the pandemic. And my response to that is, "Yeah, no kidding. 'Cause people are working 15 hour days." You can't keep that up. And the silent killer of productivity is the not, having an elongated mean time to know, and having to guess. And so my premise is that this productivity gain, if in fact it exists, is not sustainable because we're doing it on the backs of our employees and it's going to burn 'em out. >> I'm not sure whether it's real also, see, there are both sides. It's not possible, practical, as you are saying, because for example, you are a salesperson and you are working six, seven hours and you're traveling six hours. You can't be on the phone for 12 hours with a customer right now. So I don't talk and then be productive, there are both sides going, some people are overworked. And so definition of productivity itself is in question. And how do you measure that? And so that's what we'll have to look, I think basically all I'm saying is we should do it, whatever we do after the pandemic is over, about how many people work from home, should be based on your business model, your expectation, not just based on cost. And a lot of people are looking at once again, "Oh, this is another cost saving exercise." And that should not be the reason, that's the wrong reason, because then they're measuring the productivity in terms of reduced cost, not everything else. Plus at least in NETSCOUT, is a company which, I mean, every meeting I go to, I use chalkboard, and it's very very hard for other companies, somebody like IBM, where most of the people work, there are 50 offices. What is the easy transition? It's not easy for NETSCOUT. And so right now we focus on safety, but we need to come up with a good hybrid model later on, and different people will set up differently. But what we do will be relevant in all cases. >> Yeah, but I think you're making a good point that it's not some kind of mandate to drive costs down. Or we saw last decade, there were a couple of prominent companies that were mandating actually working in the office, eliminating work from home. So obviously the wrong side of history, you know, they didn't know a pandemic was coming, but so how will you make that decision? Will you, is it really a discussion case by case with the employees or what's the framework for you guys to decide that? >> Well, I think so right now, our focus is on safety. So it's completely optional. In fact, we don't even allow more than 20%, and that's only in the headquarters, other places, we have less than 5% people coming, and only essential workers, manufacturing and all those. So right now it's completely optional. But my personal preference when there is no risk is people should come to work like they were coming before. We like to make it as close as possible to the old normal, but that's not going to be the case for other companies because they're bigger in size, they have other things at play, but certainly we are not going to do it, "Oh, because it's cheaper for NETSCOUT, when people work from home." And so we we'll see how it goes. I think it will be a transition, but I can see going back to new normal in a year from now, if things start winding down in six months, within a year or so, we should be getting back to some normalcy. But that doesn't mean going to be true for our customers. So from a product point of view, we are doing several things so we can help the customer through this transition. And by the way, one other thing I wanted to mention earlier, when we talk about the blood test, how does it relate to guardians of the connected world? If you believe in that, what did the industry do? They made sure needles were not painful. That blood test was reliable. There is no hygiene issues or no issues like that. The cost has come down. As the guardian of the connected world, because we do that, that's what we have been doing. We are removing the barriers to a great idea, but not all other companies give up. And then they have different strategies and some of them are successful, some are not. So as the guardian of the connected world, our goal is to continue to make this practical use. Imagine if blood test industry had not done that, where we'll be right now. And that's what I meant by guardian of the connected world. This is not easy to do and sustain that for a period of 20, 30 years. But we have been able to do that, and we get a lot of challenges from naysayers, "Oh, this will not work at high speed." When I started NETSCOUT, it was 10 megabit internet. Now we have 100 gig internet, and we are still able to handle it. And nobody had thought in those days that you can even get to 100 megs. People were questioning us. But what happens is other things keep working in the market. Intel is making improvements, lot of people are doing work to solve the problem, and we leverage that. And that's how we are able to sort of sustain this guardian of the connected world team. >> The other key aspect of the guardian of the connected world, and again, not to overdo the blood test analogy, but the time to results is very important. If you have an issue and you have to wait weeks for the results and your doctor, you can't get ahold of her. And so you're successfully dealing with that in real time or near real time, and that to me is critical. >> Very important point, thanks for reminding because I forgot today, that's one of the things I say all the time, "Hey, this one of the big thing we have done, and blood test industry has done it. How long take to get results?" Nowadays you can get results done in like two hours, and doctors can get a report in couple of hours. That's what we had done. That's like mean time to know, which we talked about. With our technology, I think we had basically all the issues, you can't even breathe without doing something on the network. So if you're listening to the traffic or hearing what the conversation, you can form an independent view of what is happening. And that's the smart data, which then becomes the basis of analytics, whether analytics in the security space or not. And so that one thing we have not changed, this technique. Now, the outcomes are different. What are we doing with our visibility is different. Is keep changing the number of customers and the type of customers are different. But ultimately that part interestingly has not changed. >> I wonder if I could ask you, I'd like to ask CEOs, especially those that are technologists and business leaders, their thoughts on the cloud. I mean, our data shows that the public cloud is growing in the 30% plus range annually, the big three public cloud players now account this year, probably for close to $75 billion in revenue, maybe even a little bit more, what do you see driving this growth? What does it mean for your customers? >> I think first of all, we have a big announcement coming out called smart cloud monitoring to address this. But what's the meaning of that? I think what our customers are looking for is that it's not all or nothing. It's not that everything is in the cloud or everything is in the on-prem, it could be private cloud, public cloud, (indistinct), the way VPNs are laid out. So they want to make sure that they can use our technology to do this (indistinct) and analytics, regardless of what decision they make. And even five years from now, there'll be enough non-cloud stuff, okay? So that's what we are striving to do. That's what is visibility without borders, and when they do that, they're saying that helps them decide what's the best mode of operation for them, for what application. Moving blindly to the cloud is a problem. Not going into that area is also a problem. But I think this, the two new things that have happened recently, I will say one is sort of, because of this crisis, people don't want to own, like the hospitality industry. This would, I mean, they're obviously having big issues with them, but if they own a lot of the infrastructure, they could have turned off some of that. And so that's driving more movement to the cloud, but I think there is now other choices available, about a year or two ago, I think affordable pricing model, multiple choices, not just AWS, and technology maturing where you can really implement and have a good experience. I think those have become big enablers. And so I think now it is possible to get to massive movement to the cloud, but then they want to make sure that I'm outsourcing my problem, but I'm not outsourcing my vision to the cloud vendors, because previously the way in the IT industry, a lot of problems were solved is, it was called the war room. Let's get everyone who reports to me and everyone who reported to you, but now everyone doesn't report to you. So how do you maintain the control? Man, I complain to my CIO, "Hey, my WebEx is slow," or "Office (indistinct)," and how do they resolve that problem? Because they cannot tell me, "Oh, we outsourced them, so I can't tell you that," well, we should not have outsourced them to the cloud. So how do you drive this collaboration between the providers and the consumers? Is going to be key to accelerating this transformation. Because otherwise the cost of CapEx cost of a deduction of moving to the cloud will be offset by the increase in OpEx and customer satisfaction for the customer. And so if we can help deal with one of the parts, industry is already doing the other big part of making cloud work, I think then we'll have the best chance of success. >> Yeah. And of course the security has implications on the security model. You were talking earlier about that, as an opportunity, people sometimes think, "Oh yeah, I put my data in the cloud. I'm good on security." But there's a shared responsibility. Again, we talked about different traffic patterns. You've got work from home going on. And it's interesting when you juxtapose the sort of industry narrative on security, which is it gets harder and harder and harder, and you hear some of the cloud players say, "Hey, the state of security is really good," but when you talk to CISOs, they'll talk about the lack of talent, the challenges they have, the tools creep, the fact that they spend more, but the adversaries just keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger. It's a really serious problem. I mean, maybe we close there. I mean kind of, how do you see it from your vantage point? >> Let's look at the blood test. So I look at, if you do the technique which we are talking about, at least in the dimension of security monitoring, then you are going to do a lot of little things, because you're doing little things, you're going to be (indistinct) tool creep, and because of that, you have a talent issue. And I think if we can make the right stuff work, then you will not have this talent issue, and I feel that we are always looking at solving yesterday's problem, okay? Because we are not watching what led to the attack. We are just dealing with the attack as an incident, a security issue. So I think continuous monitoring of traffic allows you to look at the deviation of the normal. So signature-based security is a big portion, but how do you know the signature of tomorrow? And while you know that because you know the normal, but the only way you know normal is if you have been monitoring what was going on, not for a specific event, but deviation from normal. That's what our approach is going to be, anomalous behavior detection through our smart data. And then you apply machine learning and AI algorithms to that. I think that would be Nirvana. But we don't have all the smart people for analytics, but we can feed our data to those smart people. And that's something we are going to bring up, and the reason I feel it will be successful because this idea has been wildly successful for NETSCOUT in the non-security space. >> Yeah. I think you're bringing up another point that I've talked about a lot, which is the industry has gone from sort of an industry of products to platforms, and now ecosystems is really driving a lot of the innovation. That's exactly what you're talking about. Feeding data to other partners, data partners. Now you start thinking about IoT and the edge, and machines talking to machines. I mean, I put video cameras up in my house to make my environment more secure, but of course I'm scared to death that those things could get hacked. It's a very complicated situation, and the power of many is going to trump the resources of one. And so I'm glad you brought that out. Maybe give us your final thoughts, Anil. It really has been a pleasure talking to you. >> Well, I think one of the things people ask me is, "Why didn't you start another company?" Especially in Silicon Valley, I say, "We did start many companies, but they all happen to be called NETSCOUT." NETSCOUT 1.0 or 2.0 or 3.0, actually, we are into the 4.0. I sometimes say, "You know George Foreman's four sons, they're all called George Foreman." So every time we do something different, and now we are in the process of launching NETSCOUT 5.0, it was partly because, maybe accelerated because of what's going on with the pandemic, because there are some new challenges which (indistinct), and we are entering the security space. So I'm very excited about repeating what we did in the traditional monitoring space, service insurance space, both for enterprise and carriers, to the security space. And people will question us how come it took so long. Well, we were solving other problems, which are more interesting than this for NETSCOUT. And now we want to bring that technology and all of our tenets, guardian of the connected world, smart data, to the security space. And also, I mean, people are around for long term, we are also building the next generation of leaders at NETSCOUT. And so we have our hands full over the next two, three years, in building the next generation of NETSCOUT, solving some of the problems the industry is facing, without abandoning our tenets and the culture. And if we can do that, I think there'll be, we'll be going to the next level, in terms of NETSCOUT branding and leadership. >> Well, given the guiding principles that you shared with us earlier, the fundamental technology that you have around visibility, I think that's served you very well. And I think there's no shortage of opportunity for NETSCOUT. So, Anil, thanks so much for sharing your story and coming on theCUBE. >> Good. Thank you. >> And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. 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from the cube studios in palo alto in boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation [Music] hello everyone this is dave vellante with the cube and welcome to this conversation with me is anil singal who is the ceo of netscout anil it's a pleasure to speak with you today thanks so much for coming on the program thank you so i want to talk a little bit about uh netscout we're kind of at the cube we're sort of enamored by founder-led companies i mean you started net scout right around the same time that i entered the tech business and you remember back then it was an industry dominated by ibm monolithic systems were then with a norm in the form of mainframes you had mini computers pcs and things like pc local area networks they were in their infancy in fact most of the pcs as you remember they didn't have hard disks in them so i want to start with what was it that you saw 35 years ago to let you let that led you to start net scout and at the time did you even imagine that you'd be creating a company with a billion dollars worth of revenue and a much larger market cap well certainly i'd not imagine where we'll be right now and uh we didn't need we didn't know that this will be the outcome where i mean we just happened to be at the right place at the right time but we did have a vision some of you had the feeling we are enamored by networking and we thought that network will be the business in fact our business card in 91 said network is the business and so somehow we got that right and and we said these things will be connected and overall we found then that with the ip convergence first in the enterprise in 90s and then internet and then carriers moving from analog to digital we call talk about digital transformation in last few years but this has been going on for the last 30 years and as we add what we were doing become relevant to more and more people over time for example right now even power companies use our product okay and we have iot devices coming in so so basically what we do is we we said we're going to provide visibility through looking at the traffic through the lens and the vantage point of the network a lot of people think we're just doing network monitoring or have been doing that but actually we use the network as the vantage point which is other people are not doing most of the people have accidental data from devices at the basis of visibility and that turned out to be a very successful and but at some point different points in our life we became responsible for the market not just for netscope and that changed the shape of the company and what we did and how we drove the innovation yeah now i want to get into some of that but i i i'm still really enamored of and and fascinated by by the beginnings i worked for a founder led a chairman a guy named pat mcgovern who built the media empire he had these 10 sort of core principles we he used to test us on him we'd carry him around a little little note card things that today still serve us you know stay close to the customer uh you know keep the corporate staff lean promote from within respect for individuals the things that are drilled into your head i wonder you know what are the principles that you know sometimes they come become dogma but they're good dogma i don't mean that as a pejorative what are the things that that you built your business on the principles that you're sort of most proud of well i think there is so there are five in fact we call um uh some of the standards so five tenants we have we call we call this high ambition leadership which is more than just about making money and as just like the us is the leader of the free world we have a responsibility beyond u.s same way netscout has a responsibility beyond our own company and and revenue and our stakeholders so with that in mind we have these five things which i think i wouldn't have been able to articulate that 20 years ago like this and but they were always there so first is this guardians of the connected world which you see it on our website guardians care about their asset it's not just about money we are going to solve problems in the connected world which nobody else is able to solve or have the passion or have the resources and willpower to do it so that's that's the overall theme of the company guardians of the connected world connected world is changing broad new problems are coming our goal is there are pros and cons of every new thing our goal is to remove all the cons so you can enjoy the pros so that's guardian of the connected world then our mission is accelerate digital transformation meaning remove the road blocks people are looking at enablers but there are barriers also how do you remove the barriers for our customers so they can improve the fruits of digital transformation for example going to the cloud allows you to outsource some of the stuff especially in this time of agility and and dependency you can cut your cost but that comes with the price that you lose control so our product big bring the control back so now you can enjoy the pros and the cons and i call it sometime how do you change the wheels of your car while driving well if you change the four wheels then carve is going to fall down but how do you put one wheel in the cloud well that's what the our vision is visibility without water we'll give you the same information which is the third part so we have this uh tagline and for the company and then we have the mission accelerating digital transformation our vision is visibility without border when you run your application no matter where you run we'll give you the same piece of information that allows the people to make this transparent transparent migra that's migration transparent from a monitoring and visibility point of view then the fourth area is about a technology we call it smart data technology the whole world is talking about artificial intelligence machine learning but who are you going to learn for is your ai really authentic or is it truly artificial and that comes from smart data data is the oil of the new industry that's the oil and and people are not focusing on that they're saying i have lots of data but you don't have the data which we have in the past we said we are not going to share the data with third parties so in recently we have changed that you say yeah we'll there is the price for that we'll do that so we are branding ourselves as a smart data company where the whole industry is talking about smart analytics and i said we make smart people smarter and lastly uh the the value system of netscout is called lean but not mean okay and uh anybody can get lean if you get fat you can get your operation but how do you do lean decision making so you never have to be in me like net score never had delay in the last 35 years we have ups and down our stock has gone to three dollars and has gone to forty dollars but company continued to invest and uh and that's why we have this reputation we have with this tom here or steve here the tenure at netscout is 10 15 years minimum even in sales and people don't realize the power of that because some of our customers tell us hey your sales people are around longer than our employees and that how it builds a franchise of loyalty in the customer base we underestimate that this continuity part so there are many aspects of not what is the definition of not being mean the lean and mean is is sort of people are very proud of that and i think you can be lean without being mean and how do you become lean is don't hire when in good times unless you need them the reason people are able to do it is because they think i can fire any time so let's build up the fact so there are a lot of decision making we do around this and that's what i talk about in the book it's not about technology and this is i would say it's just one of the five diamonds but it's probably one of the most important ones and is one of the biggest differentiator of netscope well it's obviously served you well i mean no layoffs in 35 years the the retention metric is is very impressive i mean again i go back to my experience i was at idg for 15 years my passion was always to start my own company but i didn't want to leave because it was such a great culture and it seems like you've created something similar you know i talk to cios and ctos a lot too about about you know it's always people process technology and of course we want to talk about tech because we love talking about tech but they always tell me look tech comes and goes it's the processes that you put in place the culture that you have in place we could deal with the tech and it and it sounds like you've created a similar dynamic and i think back again when you started there were proprietary networks it was ibm sna dec network every mini computer had its own network then you know tcpip came in the whole world it changed and exploded but yet you said guardians of the connected world and that's kind of been your your focus from really day one you know i i loved what you said about the business the the network is the business remember the network is the computer that scott mcneely popularized so really kind of a similar dynamic there so it seems anneal that that framework that you just laid out those core principles have actually allowed you to ebb to flow to deal with stock prices and still retain people for very long periods of time maybe one more thing to add there is that on the lean but not when you talk about generalities we don't look any different like everyone cares about happy customers they care about happy employees and they care about happy stakeholders shareholders everyone including us but what's the order what's uh what's where do you start so we start with employees we say if they're happy employees they create success happy customers and then because of that they drive they buy more stuff and we create happy shareholders whereas if you start with happy shareholders you may not get happy employees and so and so all i'm saying is that everyone probably believes in what what we are saying or what i'm saying but how they implement it and then like really walking the talk is the most important part well i think you're right i mean i think you know the financials is a byproduct of happy employees which drive happy customers if you take care of employees and customers then good good things will happen uh if you start with trying to micromanage the finances of course we all attempted to to do that um i i wonder if we could talk a little bit about so just to bring it forward a little bit we're talking about how netscout has essentially from a cultural standpoint been able to withstand the ups the downs i mean you've seen since since you know over 35 years a lot of the the the downturns and the the tech softness the tech bubbles the great you know recession obviously now we're in the middle of the pandemic um i and i wonder if you could talk to that specifically so the data that we have from our survey partner etr enterprise technology research shows that before the pandemic around 16 of employees worked from home we're talking about truly remote workers not you know a couple days a week and when we talked to cios today they tell us it's you know well over 70 percent now but they fully expect that when you know the world comes back to the new abnormal i call it that it's it's that number is going to that 16 is going to double to more than double the 34 so it's it puts stress on on the the network it changes the the direction of the traffic it changes the security uh emphasis maybe you could talk a little bit about that just in terms of how you you are helping your customers respond specifically so i always talk about like is this a new problem or is the bad problem getting worse and so i put it in that bad problem getting worse so if you make the bad to zero then you can't multiply it so i think it's highlighting some of the problems which are already there are being highlighted by a lot of people are telling are you seeing more attacks no we are becoming more conscious of the attacks we always had we have more time by the way hackers have more time too because they are also sitting at home doing things so what i'm saying what i feel is that two parts one is that i think people should not in the when the new normal comes or new abnormal then i think people should not make people work from her for the wrong reason certain people are saying oh i can save money that's the wrong reason but if it's efficient we should do this so we are doing some interesting things for home users to feel how they can feel that they're really working from the office and so yeah there are some new challenges on how we monitor because when a user complains now about a performance to it because they can't get their work they don't know whether it's our network or is the isp or is their wi-fi network so we try to provide the root cause analysis as quickly as possible which we call mean time to know and one of the things i didn't mention earlier about the what is the uniqueness of our technology when we use the network vantage point to drive visibility it's almost like the blood test when you have a problem if you tell the doctor i said hey what is my problem and they start looking at all kinds of things it's going to take forever but if i take the blood test i'll be able to do the i will know what the next thing to do so in a way we are doing the blood test of the user experience security problems and when we do that we can come up with some very unique things so in the we think that we'll be moving on into other areas so the visibility is the means to an end the end could be performance management could be visibility troubleshooting uh and could be security forensics like blood tests can be used for dna evidence also and so we have all the technology so we are moving on as we move to the home user we are applying that our techniques not just for service assurance or end user experience monitoring but also for security financing and one example i give you the i always talk about and you'll see that in my book being different before being be better first be different get the earplugs out of the audience before you tell the story and you don't do that even though we are very big we are very small compared to a lot of companies in the industry compared to big players like cisco ibm and all those so the new thing which we are looking at in security is the security industry is catching the act we are going to catch the actor if i can get into the what they were doing before the act before they did the ransomware what were they doing well that required continuous monitoring of the traffic and that's what we do so when we do catch the actor catching the thief not what they're stealing then you're preventing tomorrow's attack and that's basically the innovation part of netscout which we have been pushing for but we somehow decided not to apply that to security because we had enough problems to be sold as guardians of the connected world from a monitoring point of view and so those are those are some of the things we'll be applying as as we move forward and i feel that those are equally applicable before the pandemic and after the pandemic and it's just polarized more because more people are working from home it's interesting what you're saying about the blood test uh that's a great analogy because it kind of eliminates the guesswork uh and and removes the opaqueness uh goes right to sort of the hard heart of the matter you call it mean time to know um and and it's interesting too to look at productivity i i mentioned some of the survey work when we talked to organizations they say to us that actually productivity has gone up since the the pandemic and my response to that is yeah no kidding because people are working 15-hour days you can't keep that up and and the silent killer of productivity is is the the not has having an elongated mean time to know um and having to to guess and so my premise is that this productivity gain if in fact it exists is not sustainable because we're doing it on the backs of our employees and it's going to it's going to burn them out i'm not sure whether it's real also see there are both sides it's not possible practical as you are saying because for example you're a sales person and you're working six seven hours and you're traveling six hours you can't be on the phone for 12 hours with the customer right now right how can they be productive is there both sides going some people are overworked and so definition of productivity itself is in question and how do you measure that and so that's what we'll have to look i think basically what i'm saying is we should do it whatever we do after the pandemic is over about how many people work from home should be based on your business model your expectation not just based on cost and a lot of people are looking at once again oh this is another cost saving exercise and that should not be the reason that's the wrong reason because then they're measuring the productivity in terms of reduced cost not everything else plus at least in net stock is a company which i mean every meeting i go to i use chalkboard and it's very very hard as a for our company like somebody like ibm where most of the people were there 50 offices they were remote is the easy transition it's not easy for netscout and so right now we focus on safety but we need to come up with a good hybrid model later on and different people will set up differently but what we do will be relevant in all cases yeah but i think you're making a good point that it's not some kind of mandate to drive your costs down or we saw last decade there were a couple of prominent companies that were mandating actually working in the office eliminating work from home so obviously the wrong side of history you know who they didn't know a pandemic was coming but so so how how will you make that decision uh will you is it really a discussion case by case with the employees or how what's the framework for you guys to decide that well i think so right now our focus is on safety so it's completely optional in fact we don't even allow more than 20 percent and that's only in the headquarters other places we have less than five percent people coming right and only essential workers manufacturing and all those so right now is completely optional but my personal preference when there is no risk these people should come to work like they were coming before we like to make it as close as possible to the old normal but that's not going to be the case for other companies because they're bigger in size they have other things at play but certainly we are not going to do it or because it's cheaper for net scores because we when people work from home and so we will see how it goes i think it will be a transition but i can see we going back to new normal in a year from now if the things start winding down in six months within a year or so we should be getting back to uh some normalcy and but that doesn't mean it's going to be true for our customers so from a product point of view we are doing several things so we can help the customer through this transition and by the way one other thing i wanted to mention earlier when we talk about the blood test how does it relate to guardians of the connective connected world if you believe in that what did the industry do they made sure needles were not painful that blood test was reliable you could there is no hygiene issues or no issues like that the cost has come down as a guardian of the connected world because we do that that's what we have been doing we are removing the banners to a great idea but lot of other companies gave up and then they have different strategy and some are successful some are not so as a guardian of the connected wall our goal is to continue to make this practical use imagine if blood test industry has not done that where we'll be right now and that's what what i meant by guardian of the connected world this is not easy to do and sustain that in for a period of 20 30 years but we have been able to do that and we get a lot of challenges from naysayers or this will not work at high speed when i started mad scout it was 10 megabit ethernet now we have 100 gigs 100 gig ethernet and we are still able to handle it and nobody thought in those days that you can even get 200 likes people were questioning us but what happens is other things keep working in the market intel is making improvements a lot of people are doing work to solve the problem and we leverage that and and that's how we are able to uh sort of sustain this guardian of the connected world team yeah you know the other key aspect of the guardian of the connected world again not to overdo the blood test analogy but the time to results is very important if you if you have an issue and you have to wait wait weeks for the results and your doctor you can't get a hold of her and so you're you're successfully dealing with that in real time or near real time and that that to me is is critical a very important point thanks for reminding me because i forgot today that's one of the things i say all the time hey this one of the big things we have done if blood test industry has done it how long take to get results nowadays you can get results done in in like two hours and doctors can get a report in couple of hours that's what we have done that's like mean time to know which we talked about with our technology i think we're basically the all the issues that you can't even breathe without doing something on the network so if you're listening to the traffic or hearing that uh what the conversation you can form an independent view of what is happening and that could be the that's the smart data which then becomes the basis of analytics whether analytics in the security space or not and so that's uh and that one thing we have not changed this technique now the outcomes are different what are we doing with the visibility is different is keep changing the number of customers and the type of customers are different but ultimately that part has interestingly has not changed i wonder if i could ask you i'd like to ask ceos especially those that are technologists and business leaders you know their thoughts on on the cloud i mean our data shows that the public cloud is growing in the 30 plus range annually the big three cloud public cloud players now account this year probably for close to 75 billion dollars in revenue maybe even a little bit more you know what what do you see driving this growth what does it mean for your customers well i think so forth we have a big announcement coming out called smart cloud monitoring to address this but what's the meaning of that i think what our customers are looking for is that it's it's not all or nothing it's not that everything is in the cloud or everything is in the program it could be private cloud public cloud colos the way vpns are laid out so they want to make sure that they can use our technology to do this react and analytics regardless of what decision they make and even five years from now there'll be enough non-cloud stuff okay so that's what we are trying to do we want to that's what is visibility without water and when they do that they say that helps them decide what's the best mode of operation for them for what application moving blindly to the cloud is a problem not going into that area is is also a problem but i think this the two new things have happened recently i would say one is sort of because of this crisis people don't want to own uh like hospitality industry okay this would i mean they're obviously having a big big issues with them but if they want a lot of the infrastructure they could have turned off some of that and so that's driving more movement to the cloud but i think there is a lot of choices available about a year or two ago i think affordable pricing model multiple choices not just aws and technology maturing where you can you can really implement and have a good experience i think those have become big enablers and so i think now it is possible to get to massive movement to the cloud but then they want to make sure that i'm now i'm outsourcing my problems but i'm not also outsourcing my vision to the cloud vendors because previously the way in the iit industry a lot of problems were solved is it was called the war rule let's get everyone who reports to me and everyone who reported to you but now that everyone doesn't report to you so how do you maintain the control when i complain to my ci hey my webex is slow or office three seriously and how does it resolve that problem because they cannot tell me oh we outsource them so i can't tell you that well we should not have outsourced them to the cloud so how do you drive this collaboration between the providers and the consumers is going to be key to accelerating this transformation because otherwise the cost of capex cost of reduction of moving to the cloud will be offseted by the increase in operax and customer satisfaction for the customer and so if we can help deal with one of the parts industry is already doing the other big part of making cloud work i think then we'll have the best chance of success yeah and of course the security has implications on the security model you were talking earlier about that as an opportunity people sometimes think oh yeah i put put my data in the cloud i'm good on security but there's there's a shared responsibility uh again we talked about different traffic patterns uh you've got work from home going on uh so and it's interesting when you juxtapose a sort of industry narrative on security which is it's it gets harder and harder and harder and you hear some of the cloud players say hey the state of security is really good uh but when you talk to csos you know they'll talk about the lack of talent uh the challenges they have the tools tools creep the fact that they spend more but the adversaries just keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger it's a really serious problem i mean maybe we close there i mean kind of how do you see it from your your vantage point let's look at the blood test so i look at if you don't the technique which we are talking about at least in the dimension of security monitoring then you are going to a lot of little things because you are doing little things you are going to be do a tool creep and because of that you have a like a talent issue and i think if you can make the right stuff work then you will not have this this talent issue and i feel that we are always looking solving yesterday's problem okay because we are not watching what led to the attack we are just dealing with the attack as an incident a security issue so i think continuous monitoring of deviation traffic allows you look at the deviation of the north so signature based security is a big portion but how do you know the signature of tomorrow and well you know that because you know the normal but only way you know normal is if you have been monitoring what was going on not for a specific event but deviation from normal that's what our approach is going to be anomalous behavior detection through our smart data and then you apply machine learning and ai algorithms to that i think that could be nirvana and but we don't have all the smart people for analytics but we can feed our data to those smart people and that's something we are going to bring up and the reason i feel it will be successful because this idea has been widely successful for netscout in the non-security space yeah i think you're bringing up another point that i've talked about a lot which is we've the industry has gone from sort of an industry of products to platforms and now ecosystems is really driving a lot of the innovation it's exactly what you're talking about feeding data to other partners data partners and now you start thinking about iot and the edge and machines talking to machines i mean i put you know video cameras up in my house to to make my environment more secure but of course i'm scared to death that those things can get hacked um it's a very complicated situation and the the power of many is going to trump the the the resources of one and so i'm glad you you brought that out um maybe give us your final thoughts anil it really has been a pleasure talking to you well i think the vr one of the things people have asked me is uh is why did you start another company especially in silicon valley i said with this spot many companies but they all happened to be called netstar netscout 1.0 2.0 3.0 actually we we are into the 4.0 i sometimes say you know george foreman's four sons they're all called george foreman so it's like one and so every time we do something different and now we are in the process of launching netscore 5.0 it was partly because maybe accelerated because of what's what's going on with the pandemic because there are some new challenges which we then here for and we are entering the security space so i'm very excited about repeating what we did in the traditional monitoring space service assurance space both for enterprise and carriers to the security space and people will question us how come it took so long while we were solving other problems which were more interesting than this for netscout and now we're going to bring that technology and all the tenants guardian of the connected world smart data to the security space and also i mean people are around for a long time we are also building the next generation of leaders at netstar and and so we have our hands full over the next two three years in uh building the next generation of net scout solving some of the problems which industry is facing without abandoning our tenants and the culture and if we can do that i think uh there'll be uh we'll be going to uh to the next level in terms of netscore branding and leadership well given given the guiding principles that you shared with us earlier the the the fundamental technology that you have around visibility uh i think that's served you very well and i think there's no shortage of of opportunity uh for netscout so neil thanks so much for sharing your story and coming on thecube good thank you all right and thank you for watching everybody this is dave vellante for the cube we'll see you next time [Music] you

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBEconversation. >> Hi brother, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this CUBEconversation. We're going to talk about a topic that is obviously top of mind in a lot of people situations right now, which is ensuring business continuity, business resiliency. Given this work from home pivot is something that a lot of people are focused on. Many CIOs have told us that business resiliency was way too focused on disaster recovery. And we're going to talk about this in the context of VPNs. Now I've got a love-hate with VPNs. I mean, on the one hand they provide safeguards. They give us privacy, they give us protection, everything's encrypted, but they can bring forth performance problems. There could be service quality issues, video or audio. And so the problem with VPNs is a lot of times they're a black box. You don't know what's going on inside. There are different types of VPNs, and it's actually a pretty complicated situation and with me to talk about that is Paul Barrett, the CTO of Enterprise at Netscout, Paul, good to see you. >> Great to be here. >> Yeah, so what did you see with regard to the trends that hit with COVID? Obviously there was this very rapid work from home pivot, VPNs had to be deployed for remote workers who typically would come into the office, what did you see? >> So with Netscout, we service the largest, most complex organizations, both in the US and globally. But for many of these organizations, the VPN services they provided really was for quite a small subset of their workforce. People working on the road, maybe they had a small subset of their employees working from home. And as you say, obviously, as we all understand, almost overnight, everyone's found themselves struggling to work from home. And quite frankly, most organizations VPN configurations were just never architected to deal with this kind of situation. One of the perhaps most important distinctions between the different types of VPN is whether you have a so called full VPN service or a split VPN service, because that really impacted the ability of organizations to deliver VPN. >> So what does that mean full versus split? I know there's sometimes free VPNs. You kind of get what you pay for, what does that mean, split versus full? >> So with a full VPN connection, every thing that you connect to on the internet or any business service has to go over your VPN connection. You can't make any direct connections from your PC to the internet, has to go through your enterprise network. So if you think about it, if you suddenly moved tens of thousands of employees to working from home, every single communication activity performed by those employees goes through your VPN concentrators. With a split VPN, and for example, I use a split VPN, only when I need to connect to business services that are provided over my enterprise network do I actually go directly to my enterprise network over the VPN. If I'm just going to Google or any other regular internet resource, then I get a direct connection to that internet resource. And that really takes the pressure off the VPN concentrators. >> The split VPN gives you more flexibility. I can't tell you how many times I've sent a link to somebody and say, oh, I can't open it, it's got to be my VPN blocking it. You're saying it gives you this sort of you have your cake and eat it too, the split VPN. >> Well, right, yes. It just means that to say it's only the traffic that has to go into the corporate network, goes through the corporate VPNs. What we observe is, as I say, 'cause we deal with very large organizations, particularly regulated industries, such as financial services and healthcare. There was a as just a requirement that hey, everything's got to come over the VPN. We don't want any traffic kind of leaking directly onto the internet. We want to have full control, so everything goes through our security stack. So one of the things we're sort of seeing now with three months into the COVID situation, I would say most of our customers have got through the worst of it. But a lot of them would say they're still running very hot. And those of who were previously offering full VPN, are saying, "Well, can I transition "to offering a split VPN service." But it's not a trivial thing to do because especially if you're highly regulated, you've got the compliance requirements, you've got to make sure that the traffic that has to go through your security stack does so, and that you're comfortable with any traffic that's going direct, SaaS services like Office 365, you have to make sure that you're comfortable with that traffic is going direct over the internet. So let's say it's the transition from full VPN to split it's quite a challenge and it's not trivial. >> Well, and I would imagine, I mean, if I'm the compliance officer I'm saying, "Go full VPN and I don't care if there's a restriction "and some handcuffs placed on the users." If you're a line of business head, you're saying, "Hey, I want more flexibility." So the brute force approach, it's a two edged sword. So how do you help solve that problem? I know you're focused on providing visibility, but explain where Netscout fits in the value chain. >> So yeah, everything Netscout does is about analyzing the traffic flag on networks. And we do it for helping customers ensure that the applications and services are healthy, that they're available, we have products that allow people to protect their applications against DDoS attacks, but in the case of VPN, it's really about understanding how the service is being used. If you actually look at the traffic coming on the enterprise side of your VPN concentrator, so often it's been decrypted, I can see who's accessing which business services, I can see, if for example, it's a full VPN connection, how I got users going to unimportant services like YouTube, which really isn't helping the situation. I can see whether, I might actually, 'cause typically large organizations have multiple VPN concentrators around the country and even around the globe. And you get situations where one set of the VPN concentrators are sitting there under utilized, whereas I've got another set of VPN concentrators that are sort of overwhelmed. And by getting this visibility of that kind of usage, I can actually think about getting some of my user groups to maybe use a different VPN concentrator. And as I was talking about the migration to a split VPN, having visibility of what applications are being used. Hey, I have this particular sensitive application and I need all that traffic to come through my security stack, but actually it turns out I didn't configure my split VPN correctly and it's all leaking directly over the public internet. Then I have the visibility I need to detect that kind of situation and to remedy it. >> So is the primary reason why people use Netscout in this use case really to, obviously to provide that visibility, but to make them more secure, is there a performance aspect as well in terms of what you guys are doing? >> Yeah, one of the, I would say the facets of the move to working from home is increased emphasis on services, such as unified communications, voice and video, the use of collaboration services, has greatly increased. Those types of service, particularly voice and video, they're real time services, they're very susceptible to poor network transmission. Things like latency and packets being dropped. And as I say, people working from home are becoming much more reliant on these types of service than they are when they're in an office. And so it's critical to understand whether problems with, for example, voice and video quality are arising in your own network, because for example, you've saturated your VPN concentrator or whether they're coming from your SaaS provider. So, to give an example, I find using, one of the well known collaboration services, if I've got problems in my own network and I'm introducing packet loss into my voice feeds, if I send all of this, because of already corrupted traffic to the collaboration service, and then that gets reflected to all of my other users, everyone will go, "Oh, hey, there's a problem "with the collaboration service." And you're going to waste time pointing your thing at the collaboration service provider, who let's be honest at the moment has got much better things to do than to go chasing phantom problems. When if you have visibility inside your own network, you can actually understand that, oh, hey, no, this is a problem of my own making. So I'm not going to waste cycles, pointing the finger at the other guy, I can actually get on with isolating the problem in my own network, figure out what I need to do and then remediate it. >> So Netscout, you guys are doing some dirty work. You like Navy Seals going in, and going deep into the network. So talk a little bit about the intellectual property behind this. How does it work? What's the secret sauce that Netscout brings to the table? >> So, our CEO and co-founder Anil Singhal, over 30 years ago, the company is 35 years old, he recognized the growing importance of the computer network and he recognized the need to understand what's happening on these networks. And of course now it's almost impossible to do anything without it involving a network of some kind. So, he persevered and continue to refine and refine the technology of analyzing what happens on a network, but converting that raw traffic into actionable data, we call that the data we produce, the metadata, Adaptive Service Intelligence, and we sometimes refer to it as smart data. And of course there's an emerging trend in the industry, of AIOps saying, what can I do if I start to apply machine learning algorithms to all the data that's coming out of my environment. It's like the old garbage in, garbage out, you could only perform high quality analytics if you have a high quality data source to work with. So that's really, that's always been our focus. How can we take all of that complex traffic on a network and map it to a very simple but actionable set of high quality data? >> So it always comes back to the data, doesn't it? In these types of things, but I wonder what is the diversity and variety of the data set? Is it a fairly narrow and well understood data set or are there sort of conflicting data that you also have to rationalize? >> Well, data model has multiple levels. Everything from reduce all the raw packets, and we're intelligent how we do that. We have all the parts that you really need, and we store rich data relating to individual transactions. That's very useful for troubleshooting, but what we were also able to do, is to actually for most network protocols, we actually can map it to a common data model. And that's extremely powerful because it means that in a single pane of glass, I can get insight into all of the different applications and protocols running on my network. >> So you've sort of addressed the data quality problem in that way, I wonder, I mean, as a CTO, I would imagine you spend a fair amount of time with customers, are there any sort of examples that you can give? Either, name names or anonymous, just in terms of the 100 days, how you've helped customers, some of your favorite examples, perhaps? >> Well, as I say, I mean, a lot of energy has been put into providing that visibility around VPN services because quite honestly it was never seen as a particularly critical component of the overall enterprise. It was that, as I said earlier, it was that kind of, oh, that's just something to help the guys on the road. And all of a sudden it became the most important piece. And as I said, it's also not just been about, okay, let's give sufficient visibility for you to kind of keep the wheels on the truck, it's also helping the customers about thinking forward, about planning. We talked about planning a migration, split VPN, but also thinking about their future needs. I think a lot of customers are looking to over-provision and the ones that have already transitioned to virtualized infrastructure are actually in a stronger position because they've got a lot more flexibility and ability, for example, to split up more VPN resources, or more virtual desktop resources, for example. >> And of course you mentioned that you guys deal with many types of industries, but specifically a lot of regulated industries, financial services, healthcare, government, et cetera. And so I would imagine that, that those guys really had to tap your services over the past 100 days. >> Exactly, and as we mentioned earlier, those are the organizations that are much more likely to be using full VPN and have a lot more constraints on their ability. So even if they do move to split VPN, then there's going to be limits on how much of the traffic that they can truly allow direct over the internet. >> I wonder if we could end just sort of riffing on the whole notion of digital transformation and automation. I mean, prior to COVID, we talk a lot about automation, talk about digital transformation, but the reality is a lot of it was lip service. A lot of customers or companies would really kind of prioritize other initiatives, but overnight, if you weren't digital, you couldn't transact business and automation has really become imperative. People don't seem to be afraid of it anymore, they seem to be sort of glomming onto it. And really as a productivity driver, how do you see the nation in this post-isolation economy and what are the impacts to some of your customers? >> Well, as we all understand, digital transformation is all about trying to be agile, to be able to move as fast as possible, to be able to deploy new services quickly, to respond to disruption in the marketplace and new opportunities. The only way you can really achieve that as you mentioned, is through large scale automation. But I like to make two observations about automation. Automation is very good at taking a small building block and then replicating it and deploying it, many hundreds or thousands of times over. But if you've got a bug or a defect in that building block, when you go and replicate it, you go and replicate whatever that failure moment was or that bug. So if you don't have visibility, very quickly, you can find that a very small little area that was overlooked by the quality guys has got the huge implications. The other thing about wholesale automation, and as we build these increasingly complex systems where we have machines talking to machines, largely unobserved, I'm always reminded of the stock market crash of 1987, so called Black Monday on October the 19th. And this was one of the biggest crashes ever, something like a trillion dollars was wiped off the US markets alone. And although, a lot of people said a correction was due, when we look back, we see that the thing that was different about that crash is that it was the first time we really had automated trading algorithms in play. Now, I don't believe anybody who wrote one of those algorithms was deliberately trying to crash the markets, they were trying to make money. But what no one had thought about is how all of these different algorithms by different people would interact with each other when they were pushed sort of out of their comfort zone, if you like. And I think we have a very strong analogy with digital transformation. As I say, we continue to build increasingly complex systems with machines talking to machines. So for me to operate these kinds of environments without maximum visibility, it's almost terrifying. It's like driving a racing car without a safety harness. So, visibility is absolutely key as we move towards further automation. >> That's interesting, I mean, I wasn't around in the 1920s, but my understanding was that when stock market crash hit then, depression then it took hours and hours and hours to determine, what the market actually closed at. You actually saw that in the 60s as well. And then I remember, well, 1987, there were no, for you younger people in United States, there were no real time quotes then, unless you had like a Bloomberg Terminal, which we had one, actually, I was at IDC at the time. And it took like many, many minutes to actually get a quote back. I mean, the volume was so high and the infrastructure just really wasn't there. But now to your point, you see things happening today in the stock market, Paul and they chalk it up to a computer glitch, which essentially means they have no idea what happened. And to your point about the complexity and machines to machines, if you think about AI, a lot of AI is again, back to this black box. So are you suggesting that you guys can actually provide visibility? It's solves some of that black box problem? >> Well, absolutely, what we can do is we can provide a visibility into the interactions between all of these different systems. It's amazing how often in these large complex environments, there may be dependencies that people didn't even know existed. That can be that complex. So by looking at all of the traffic flowing between all of these different systems, we can help people understand what the dependencies are. Is a particular sub-component starting to fail? Is it becoming slow? Is it generating errors? And if things do go wrong, it's about troubleshooting as fast as possible. We need to get these systems back up and running. So the ability to rapidly isolate problems and to get away from the situation where different organizations in IT are pointing the finger at each other, 'cause nobody really knows where to start. And that's kind of human nature. It's like, well, it could be my responsibility, but it could be the other guy, so I'm pointing the finger at the other guy. What we do is we provide that information that first of all, isolates the location of the problem. So we can put the correct team working on it and the other guys can get back to their day jobs. And by providing evidence of a problem, you can actually allow someone to get to the bottom of a problem much faster. >> You got to have tooling, with all this public internet, the public cloud, now with IOT, it's just going to get more and more complicated. We'll probably look back on the 2010s and say that was nothing compared to what we're entering here. But Paul, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE it was a great conversation. Really appreciate your insights. >> Thank you, I enjoyed it's my pleasure. >> All right and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)