from the cube studios in palo alto in boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation [Music] hello everyone this is dave vellante with the cube and welcome to this conversation with me is anil singal who is the ceo of netscout anil it's a pleasure to speak with you today thanks so much for coming on the program thank you so i want to talk a little bit about uh netscout we're kind of at the cube we're sort of enamored by founder-led companies i mean you started net scout right around the same time that i entered the tech business and you remember back then it was an industry dominated by ibm monolithic systems were then with a norm in the form of mainframes you had mini computers pcs and things like pc local area networks they were in their infancy in fact most of the pcs as you remember they didn't have hard disks in them so i want to start with what was it that you saw 35 years ago to let you let that led you to start net scout and at the time did you even imagine that you'd be creating a company with a billion dollars worth of revenue and a much larger market cap well certainly i'd not imagine where we'll be right now and uh we didn't need we didn't know that this will be the outcome where i mean we just happened to be at the right place at the right time but we did have a vision some of you had the feeling we are enamored by networking and we thought that network will be the business in fact our business card in 91 said network is the business and so somehow we got that right and and we said these things will be connected and overall we found then that with the ip convergence first in the enterprise in 90s and then internet and then carriers moving from analog to digital we call talk about digital transformation in last few years but this has been going on for the last 30 years and as we add what we were doing become relevant to more and more people over time for example right now even power companies use our product okay and we have iot devices coming in so so basically what we do is we we said we're going to provide visibility through looking at the traffic through the lens and the vantage point of the network a lot of people think we're just doing network monitoring or have been doing that but actually we use the network as the vantage point which is other people are not doing most of the people have accidental data from devices at the basis of visibility and that turned out to be a very successful and but at some point different points in our life we became responsible for the market not just for netscope and that changed the shape of the company and what we did and how we drove the innovation yeah now i want to get into some of that but i i i'm still really enamored of and and fascinated by by the beginnings i worked for a founder led a chairman a guy named pat mcgovern who built the media empire he had these 10 sort of core principles we he used to test us on him we'd carry him around a little little note card things that today still serve us you know stay close to the customer uh you know keep the corporate staff lean promote from within respect for individuals the things that are drilled into your head i wonder you know what are the principles that you know sometimes they come become dogma but they're good dogma i don't mean that as a pejorative what are the things that that you built your business on the principles that you're sort of most proud of well i think there is so there are five in fact we call um uh some of the standards so five tenants we have we call we call this high ambition leadership which is more than just about making money and as just like the us is the leader of the free world we have a responsibility beyond u.s same way netscout has a responsibility beyond our own company and and revenue and our stakeholders so with that in mind we have these five things which i think i wouldn't have been able to articulate that 20 years ago like this and but they were always there so first is this guardians of the connected world which you see it on our website guardians care about their asset it's not just about money we are going to solve problems in the connected world which nobody else is able to solve or have the passion or have the resources and willpower to do it so that's that's the overall theme of the company guardians of the connected world connected world is changing broad new problems are coming our goal is there are pros and cons of every new thing our goal is to remove all the cons so you can enjoy the pros so that's guardian of the connected world then our mission is accelerate digital transformation meaning remove the road blocks people are looking at enablers but there are barriers also how do you remove the barriers for our customers so they can improve the fruits of digital transformation for example going to the cloud allows you to outsource some of the stuff especially in this time of agility and and dependency you can cut your cost but that comes with the price that you lose control so our product big bring the control back so now you can enjoy the pros and the cons and i call it sometime how do you change the wheels of your car while driving well if you change the four wheels then carve is going to fall down but how do you put one wheel in the cloud well that's what the our vision is visibility without water we'll give you the same information which is the third part so we have this uh tagline and for the company and then we have the mission accelerating digital transformation our vision is visibility without border when you run your application no matter where you run we'll give you the same piece of information that allows the people to make this transparent transparent migra that's migration transparent from a monitoring and visibility point of view then the fourth area is about a technology we call it smart data technology the whole world is talking about artificial intelligence machine learning but who are you going to learn for is your ai really authentic or is it truly artificial and that comes from smart data data is the oil of the new industry that's the oil and and people are not focusing on that they're saying i have lots of data but you don't have the data which we have in the past we said we are not going to share the data with third parties so in recently we have changed that you say yeah we'll there is the price for that we'll do that so we are branding ourselves as a smart data company where the whole industry is talking about smart analytics and i said we make smart people smarter and lastly uh the the value system of netscout is called lean but not mean okay and uh anybody can get lean if you get fat you can get your operation but how do you do lean decision making so you never have to be in me like net score never had delay in the last 35 years we have ups and down our stock has gone to three dollars and has gone to forty dollars but company continued to invest and uh and that's why we have this reputation we have with this tom here or steve here the tenure at netscout is 10 15 years minimum even in sales and people don't realize the power of that because some of our customers tell us hey your sales people are around longer than our employees and that how it builds a franchise of loyalty in the customer base we underestimate that this continuity part so there are many aspects of not what is the definition of not being mean the lean and mean is is sort of people are very proud of that and i think you can be lean without being mean and how do you become lean is don't hire when in good times unless you need them the reason people are able to do it is because they think i can fire any time so let's build up the fact so there are a lot of decision making we do around this and that's what i talk about in the book it's not about technology and this is i would say it's just one of the five diamonds but it's probably one of the most important ones and is one of the biggest differentiator of netscope well it's obviously served you well i mean no layoffs in 35 years the the retention metric is is very impressive i mean again i go back to my experience i was at idg for 15 years my passion was always to start my own company but i didn't want to leave because it was such a great culture and it seems like you've created something similar you know i talk to cios and ctos a lot too about about you know it's always people process technology and of course we want to talk about tech because we love talking about tech but they always tell me look tech comes and goes it's the processes that you put in place the culture that you have in place we could deal with the tech and it and it sounds like you've created a similar dynamic and i think back again when you started there were proprietary networks it was ibm sna dec network every mini computer had its own network then you know tcpip came in the whole world it changed and exploded but yet you said guardians of the connected world and that's kind of been your your focus from really day one you know i i loved what you said about the business the the network is the business remember the network is the computer that scott mcneely popularized so really kind of a similar dynamic there so it seems anneal that that framework that you just laid out those core principles have actually allowed you to ebb to flow to deal with stock prices and still retain people for very long periods of time maybe one more thing to add there is that on the lean but not when you talk about generalities we don't look any different like everyone cares about happy customers they care about happy employees and they care about happy stakeholders shareholders everyone including us but what's the order what's uh what's where do you start so we start with employees we say if they're happy employees they create success happy customers and then because of that they drive they buy more stuff and we create happy shareholders whereas if you start with happy shareholders you may not get happy employees and so and so all i'm saying is that everyone probably believes in what what we are saying or what i'm saying but how they implement it and then like really walking the talk is the most important part well i think you're right i mean i think you know the financials is a byproduct of happy employees which drive happy customers if you take care of employees and customers then good good things will happen uh if you start with trying to micromanage the finances of course we all attempted to to do that um i i wonder if we could talk a little bit about so just to bring it forward a little bit we're talking about how netscout has essentially from a cultural standpoint been able to withstand the ups the downs i mean you've seen since since you know over 35 years a lot of the the the downturns and the the tech softness the tech bubbles the great you know recession obviously now we're in the middle of the pandemic um i and i wonder if you could talk to that specifically so the data that we have from our survey partner etr enterprise technology research shows that before the pandemic around 16 of employees worked from home we're talking about truly remote workers not you know a couple days a week and when we talked to cios today they tell us it's you know well over 70 percent now but they fully expect that when you know the world comes back to the new abnormal i call it that it's it's that number is going to that 16 is going to double to more than double the 34 so it's it puts stress on on the the network it changes the the direction of the traffic it changes the security uh emphasis maybe you could talk a little bit about that just in terms of how you you are helping your customers respond specifically so i always talk about like is this a new problem or is the bad problem getting worse and so i put it in that bad problem getting worse so if you make the bad to zero then you can't multiply it so i think it's highlighting some of the problems which are already there are being highlighted by a lot of people are telling are you seeing more attacks no we are becoming more conscious of the attacks we always had we have more time by the way hackers have more time too because they are also sitting at home doing things so what i'm saying what i feel is that two parts one is that i think people should not in the when the new normal comes or new abnormal then i think people should not make people work from her for the wrong reason certain people are saying oh i can save money that's the wrong reason but if it's efficient we should do this so we are doing some interesting things for home users to feel how they can feel that they're really working from the office and so yeah there are some new challenges on how we monitor because when a user complains now about a performance to it because they can't get their work they don't know whether it's our network or is the isp or is their wi-fi network so we try to provide the root cause analysis as quickly as possible which we call mean time to know and one of the things i didn't mention earlier about the what is the uniqueness of our technology when we use the network vantage point to drive visibility it's almost like the blood test when you have a problem if you tell the doctor i said hey what is my problem and they start looking at all kinds of things it's going to take forever but if i take the blood test i'll be able to do the i will know what the next thing to do so in a way we are doing the blood test of the user experience security problems and when we do that we can come up with some very unique things so in the we think that we'll be moving on into other areas so the visibility is the means to an end the end could be performance management could be visibility troubleshooting uh and could be security forensics like blood tests can be used for dna evidence also and so we have all the technology so we are moving on as we move to the home user we are applying that our techniques not just for service assurance or end user experience monitoring but also for security financing and one example i give you the i always talk about and you'll see that in my book being different before being be better first be different get the earplugs out of the audience before you tell the story and you don't do that even though we are very big we are very small compared to a lot of companies in the industry compared to big players like cisco ibm and all those so the new thing which we are looking at in security is the security industry is catching the act we are going to catch the actor if i can get into the what they were doing before the act before they did the ransomware what were they doing well that required continuous monitoring of the traffic and that's what we do so when we do catch the actor catching the thief not what they're stealing then you're preventing tomorrow's attack and that's basically the innovation part of netscout which we have been pushing for but we somehow decided not to apply that to security because we had enough problems to be sold as guardians of the connected world from a monitoring point of view and so those are those are some of the things we'll be applying as as we move forward and i feel that those are equally applicable before the pandemic and after the pandemic and it's just polarized more because more people are working from home it's interesting what you're saying about the blood test uh that's a great analogy because it kind of eliminates the guesswork uh and and removes the opaqueness uh goes right to sort of the hard heart of the matter you call it mean time to know um and and it's interesting too to look at productivity i i mentioned some of the survey work when we talked to organizations they say to us that actually productivity has gone up since the the pandemic and my response to that is yeah no kidding because people are working 15-hour days you can't keep that up and and the silent killer of productivity is is the the not has having an elongated mean time to know um and having to to guess and so my premise is that this productivity gain if in fact it exists is not sustainable because we're doing it on the backs of our employees and it's going to it's going to burn them out i'm not sure whether it's real also see there are both sides it's not possible practical as you are saying because for example you're a sales person and you're working six seven hours and you're traveling six hours you can't be on the phone for 12 hours with the customer right now right how can they be productive is there both sides going some people are overworked and so definition of productivity itself is in question and how do you measure that and so that's what we'll have to look i think basically what i'm saying is we should do it whatever we do after the pandemic is over about how many people work from home should be based on your business model your expectation not just based on cost and a lot of people are looking at once again oh this is another cost saving exercise and that should not be the reason that's the wrong reason because then they're measuring the productivity in terms of reduced cost not everything else plus at least in net stock is a company which i mean every meeting i go to i use chalkboard and it's very very hard as a for our company like somebody like ibm where most of the people were there 50 offices they were remote is the easy transition it's not easy for netscout and so right now we focus on safety but we need to come up with a good hybrid model later on and different people will set up differently but what we do will be relevant in all cases yeah but i think you're making a good point that it's not some kind of mandate to drive your costs down or we saw last decade there were a couple of prominent companies that were mandating actually working in the office eliminating work from home so obviously the wrong side of history you know who they didn't know a pandemic was coming but so so how how will you make that decision uh will you is it really a discussion case by case with the employees or how what's the framework for you guys to decide that well i think so right now our focus is on safety so it's completely optional in fact we don't even allow more than 20 percent and that's only in the headquarters other places we have less than five percent people coming right and only essential workers manufacturing and all those so right now is completely optional but my personal preference when there is no risk these people should come to work like they were coming before we like to make it as close as possible to the old normal but that's not going to be the case for other companies because they're bigger in size they have other things at play but certainly we are not going to do it or because it's cheaper for net scores because we when people work from home and so we will see how it goes i think it will be a transition but i can see we going back to new normal in a year from now if the things start winding down in six months within a year or so we should be getting back to uh some normalcy and but that doesn't mean it's going to be true for our customers so from a product point of view we are doing several things so we can help the customer through this transition and by the way one other thing i wanted to mention earlier when we talk about the blood test how does it relate to guardians of the connective connected world if you believe in that what did the industry do they made sure needles were not painful that blood test was reliable you could there is no hygiene issues or no issues like that the cost has come down as a guardian of the connected world because we do that that's what we have been doing we are removing the banners to a great idea but lot of other companies gave up and then they have different strategy and some are successful some are not so as a guardian of the connected wall our goal is to continue to make this practical use imagine if blood test industry has not done that where we'll be right now and that's what what i meant by guardian of the connected world this is not easy to do and sustain that in for a period of 20 30 years but we have been able to do that and we get a lot of challenges from naysayers or this will not work at high speed when i started mad scout it was 10 megabit ethernet now we have 100 gigs 100 gig ethernet and we are still able to handle it and nobody thought in those days that you can even get 200 likes people were questioning us but what happens is other things keep working in the market intel is making improvements a lot of people are doing work to solve the problem and we leverage that and and that's how we are able to uh sort of sustain this guardian of the connected world team yeah you know the other key aspect of the guardian of the connected world again not to overdo the blood test analogy but the time to results is very important if you if you have an issue and you have to wait wait weeks for the results and your doctor you can't get a hold of her and so you're you're successfully dealing with that in real time or near real time and that that to me is is critical a very important point thanks for reminding me because i forgot today that's one of the things i say all the time hey this one of the big things we have done if blood test industry has done it how long take to get results nowadays you can get results done in in like two hours and doctors can get a report in couple of hours that's what we have done that's like mean time to know which we talked about with our technology i think we're basically the all the issues that you can't even breathe without doing something on the network so if you're listening to the traffic or hearing that uh what the conversation you can form an independent view of what is happening and that could be the that's the smart data which then becomes the basis of analytics whether analytics in the security space or not and so that's uh and that one thing we have not changed this technique now the outcomes are different what are we doing with the visibility is different is keep changing the number of customers and the type of customers are different but ultimately that part has interestingly has not changed i wonder if i could ask you i'd like to ask ceos especially those that are technologists and business leaders you know their thoughts on on the cloud i mean our data shows that the public cloud is growing in the 30 plus range annually the big three cloud public cloud players now account this year probably for close to 75 billion dollars in revenue maybe even a little bit more you know what what do you see driving this growth what does it mean for your customers well i think so forth we have a big announcement coming out called smart cloud monitoring to address this but what's the meaning of that i think what our customers are looking for is that it's it's not all or nothing it's not that everything is in the cloud or everything is in the program it could be private cloud public cloud colos the way vpns are laid out so they want to make sure that they can use our technology to do this react and analytics regardless of what decision they make and even five years from now there'll be enough non-cloud stuff okay so that's what we are trying to do we want to that's what is visibility without water and when they do that they say that helps them decide what's the best mode of operation for them for what application moving blindly to the cloud is a problem not going into that area is is also a problem but i think this the two new things have happened recently i would say one is sort of because of this crisis people don't want to own uh like hospitality industry okay this would i mean they're obviously having a big big issues with them but if they want a lot of the infrastructure they could have turned off some of that and so that's driving more movement to the cloud but i think there is a lot of choices available about a year or two ago i think affordable pricing model multiple choices not just aws and technology maturing where you can you can really implement and have a good experience i think those have become big enablers and so i think now it is possible to get to massive movement to the cloud but then they want to make sure that i'm now i'm outsourcing my problems but i'm not also outsourcing my vision to the cloud vendors because previously the way in the iit industry a lot of problems were solved is it was called the war rule let's get everyone who reports to me and everyone who reported to you but now that everyone doesn't report to you so how do you maintain the control when i complain to my ci hey my webex is slow or office three seriously and how does it resolve that problem because they cannot tell me oh we outsource them so i can't tell you that well we should not have outsourced them to the cloud so how do you drive this collaboration between the providers and the consumers is going to be key to accelerating this transformation because otherwise the cost of capex cost of reduction of moving to the cloud will be offseted by the increase in operax and customer satisfaction for the customer and so if we can help deal with one of the parts industry is already doing the other big part of making cloud work i think then we'll have the best chance of success yeah and of course the security has implications on the security model you were talking earlier about that as an opportunity people sometimes think oh yeah i put put my data in the cloud i'm good on security but there's there's a shared responsibility uh again we talked about different traffic patterns uh you've got work from home going on uh so and it's interesting when you juxtapose a sort of industry narrative on security which is it's it gets harder and harder and harder and you hear some of the cloud players say hey the state of security is really good uh but when you talk to csos you know they'll talk about the lack of talent uh the challenges they have the tools tools creep the fact that they spend more but the adversaries just keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger it's a really serious problem i mean maybe we close there i mean kind of how do you see it from your your vantage point let's look at the blood test so i look at if you don't the technique which we are talking about at least in the dimension of security monitoring then you are going to a lot of little things because you are doing little things you are going to be do a tool creep and because of that you have a like a talent issue and i think if you can make the right stuff work then you will not have this this talent issue and i feel that we are always looking solving yesterday's problem okay because we are not watching what led to the attack we are just dealing with the attack as an incident a security issue so i think continuous monitoring of deviation traffic allows you look at the deviation of the north so signature based security is a big portion but how do you know the signature of tomorrow and well you know that because you know the normal but only way you know normal is if you have been monitoring what was going on not for a specific event but deviation from normal that's what our approach is going to be anomalous behavior detection through our smart data and then you apply machine learning and ai algorithms to that i think that could be nirvana and but we don't have all the smart people for analytics but we can feed our data to those smart people and that's something we are going to bring up and the reason i feel it will be successful because this idea has been widely successful for netscout in the non-security space yeah i think you're bringing up another point that i've talked about a lot which is we've the industry has gone from sort of an industry of products to platforms and now ecosystems is really driving a lot of the innovation it's exactly what you're talking about feeding data to other partners data partners and now you start thinking about iot and the edge and machines talking to machines i mean i put you know video cameras up in my house to to make my environment more secure but of course i'm scared to death that those things can get hacked um it's a very complicated situation and the the power of many is going to trump the the the resources of one and so i'm glad you you brought that out um maybe give us your final thoughts anil it really has been a pleasure talking to you well i think the vr one of the things people have asked me is uh is why did you start another company especially in silicon valley i said with this spot many companies but they all happened to be called netstar netscout 1.0 2.0 3.0 actually we we are into the 4.0 i sometimes say you know george foreman's four sons they're all called george foreman so it's like one and so every time we do something different and now we are in the process of launching netscore 5.0 it was partly because maybe accelerated because of what's what's going on with the pandemic because there are some new challenges which we then here for and we are entering the security space so i'm very excited about repeating what we did in the traditional monitoring space service assurance space both for enterprise and carriers to the security space and people will question us how come it took so long while we were solving other problems which were more interesting than this for netscout and now we're going to bring that technology and all the tenants guardian of the connected world smart data to the security space and also i mean people are around for a long time we are also building the next generation of leaders at netstar and and so we have our hands full over the next two three years in uh building the next generation of net scout solving some of the problems which industry is facing without abandoning our tenants and the culture and if we can do that i think uh there'll be uh we'll be going to uh to the next level in terms of netscore branding and leadership well given given the guiding principles that you shared with us earlier the the the fundamental technology that you have around visibility uh i think that's served you very well and i think there's no shortage of of opportunity uh for netscout so neil thanks so much for sharing your story and coming on thecube good thank you all right and thank you for watching everybody this is dave vellante for the cube we'll see you next time [Music] you