>>Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Cube Live, AWS Reinvent 2022. This is our first day of three and a half days of wall to wall coverage on the cube. Lisa Martin here with Dave Valante. Dave, it's getting louder and louder behind us. People are back. They're excited. >>You know what somebody told me today? Hm? They said that less than 15% of the audience is developers. I'm like, no way. I don't believe it. But now maybe there's a redefinition of developers because it's all about the data and it's all about the developers in my mind. And that'll never change. >>It is. And one of the things we're gonna be talking about is app modernization. As customers really navigate the journey to do that so that they can be competitive and, and meet the demands of customers. We've got an alumni back with us to talk about that. AJ Patel joins us, the SVP and GM Modern Apps and Management business group at VMware. Aj, welcome back. Thank >>You. It's always great to be here, so thank you David. Good to see >>You. Isn't great. It's great to be back in person. So the VMware Tansu team here back at Reinvent on the Flow Shore Flow show floor. There we go. Talk about some of the things that you guys are doing together, innovating with aws. >>Yeah, so it's, it's great to be back after in person after multiple years and the energy level continues to amaze me. The partnership with AWS started on the infrastructure side with VMware cloud on aws. And when with tanza, we're extending it to the application space. And the work here is really about how do you make developers productive To your earlier point, it's all about developers. It's all about getting applications in production securely, safely, continuously. And tanza is all about making that bridge between great applications being built, getting them deployed and running, running and operating at scale. And EKS is a dominant Kubernetes platform. And so the better together story of tanu and EKS is a great one for us, and we're excited to announce some sort of innovations in that area. >>Well, Tanu was so front and center at VMware Explorer. I wasn't at in, in VMware Explorer, Europe. Right. But I'm sure it was a similar kind of focus. When are customers choosing Tanu? Why are they choosing Tanu? What's, what's, what's the update since last August when >>We, you know, the market settled into three main use cases. One is all about developer productivity. You know, consistently we're all dealing with skill set gap issues. How do we make every developer productive, modern developer? And so 10 is all about enabling that develop productivity. And we can talk quite a bit about it. Second one is security's front and center and security's being shifted left right into how you build great software. How do you secure that through the entire supply chain process? And how do you run and operationalize secure at runtime? So we're hearing consistently about making secure software supply chain heart of what our solution is. And third one is, how do I run and operate the modern application at scale across any Kubernetes, across any cloud? These are the three teams that are continuing to get resonance and empowering. All of this is exciting. David is this formation of platform teams. I just finished a study with Bain Consulting doing some research for me. 40% of our organization now have some form of a central team that's responsive for, for we call platform engineering and building platforms to make developers productive. That is a big change since about two years ago even. So this is becoming mainstream and customers are really focusing on delivering in value to making developers productive. >>Now. And, and, and the other nuance that I see, and you kinda see it here in the ecosystem, but when you talk about your customers with platform engineering, they're actually building their, they're pointing their business. They gonna page outta aws, pointing their businesses to their customers, right? Becoming software companies, becoming cloud companies and really generating new forms of revenue. >>You know, the interesting thing is, some of my customers I would never have thought as leading edge are retailers. Yeah. And not your typical Starbucks that you get a great example. I have an auto parts company that's completely modernizing how they deliver point of sale all the way to the supply chain. All built on ES at scale. You're typically think of that a financial services or a telco leading the pack. But I'm seeing innovation in India. I'm seeing the innovation in AMEA coming out of there, across the board. Every industry is becoming a product company. A digital twin as we would call it. Yeah. And means they become software houses. Yeah. They behave more like you and I in this event versus a, a traditional enterprise. >>And they're building their own ecosystems and that ecosystem's generating data that's generating more value. And it's just this cycle. It's, >>It's a amazing, it's a flywheel. So innovation continues to grow. Talk about really unlocking the developer experience and delivering to them what they need to modernize apps to move as fast and quickly as they want to. >>So, you know, I think AWS coin this word undifferentiated heavy lifting. If you think of a typical developer today, how much effort does he have to put in before he can get a single line of code out in production? If you can take away all the complexity, typically security compliance is a big headache for them, right? Developer doesn't wanna worry about that. Infrastructure provisioning, getting all the configurations right, is a headache for them. Being able to understand what size of infrastructure or resource to use cost effectively. How do you run it operationally? Cuz the application team is responsible for the operational cost of the product or service. So these are the un you know, heavy lifting that developers want to get away from. So they wanna write great code, build great experiences. And we've always talked about frameworks a way to abstract with the complexity. And so for us, there's a massive opportunity to say, how do I simplify and take away all the heavy lifting to get an idea into production seamlessly, continuously, securely. >>Is that part of your partnership? Because you think about a aws, they're really not about frameworks, they're about primitives. I mean, Warner Vos even talks about that in his, in his speech, you know, but, but that makes it more challenging for developers. >>No, actually, if you look at some of their initial investments around proton and et cetera work, they're starting to do, they're recognized, you know, PS is a bad, bad word, but the outcomes a platform as a service offers is what everybody wants. Just talking to the AWS leaders, responsible area, he actually has a separate build team. He didn't know what to call the third team. He has a Kubernetes team, he has a serverless team and has a build team. And that build team is everything above Kubernetes to make the developer productive. Right. And the ecosystem to bring together to make that happen. So I think AWS is recognizing that primitives are great for the elite developers, but if they want to get the mass scale and adoption in the business, it, if you will, they're gonna have to provide richer set of building blocks and reduce the complex and partnership like ours. Make that a reality. And what I'm excited about is there's a clear gap here, and t's the best platform to kind of fill that gap. Well, >>And I, I think that, you know, they're gonna double down triple, I just wrote about this double down, triple down on the primitives. Yes. They have to have the best, you know, servers and storage and database. And I think the way they, they, I call it taping the seams is with the ecosystem. Correct. You know, and they, nobody has a, a better ecosystem. I mean, you guys are, you know, the, the postage child for the ecosystem and now this even exceeds that. But partnering up, that's how they >>Continue to, and they're looking for someone who's open, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the first question is, you know, are you proprie or open? Because one of the things they're fighting against is the lock in. So they can find a friendly partner who is open source, led, you know, upstream committing to the code, delivering that innovation, and bring the ecosystem into orchestrated choreography. It's like singing a music, right? They're running a, running an application delivery team is like running a, a musical orchestra. There's so many moving parts here, right? How do you make them sing together? And so if Tan Zoo and our platform can help them sing and drive more of their services, it's only more valuable for them. And >>I think the partners would generally say, you know, AWS always talking about customer obsession. It's like becomes this bromine, you go, yeah, yeah. But I actually think in the field, the the sellers would say, yeah, we're gonna do what the customer, if that means we're gonna partner up. Yeah. And I think AWS's comp structure makes it sort >>Of, I learned today how, how incentives with marketplaces work. Yeah. And it is powerful. It's very powerful. Yeah. Right. So you line up the sales incentive, you line up the customer and the benefits, you line up bringing the ecosystem to drive business results and everybody, and so everybody wins. And which is what you're seeing here, the excitement and the crowd is really the whole, all boats are rising. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. And it's driven by the fact that customers are getting true value out of it. >>Oh, absolutely. Tremendous value. Speaking of customers, give us an example of a customer story that you think really articulates the value of what Tanzi was delivering, especially making that developer experience far simpler. What are some of those big business outcomes that that delivers? >>You know, at Explorer we had the CIO of cvs and with their acquisition of Aetna and CVS Health, they're transforming the, the health industry. And they talked about the whole covid and then how they had to deliver the number of, you know, vaccines to u i and how quickly they had to deliver on that. It talked about Tanu and how they leverage, leverage a Tanza platform to get those new applications out and start to build that. And Ro was basically talking about his number one prior is how does he get his developers more productive? Number to priority? How does he make sure the apps are secure? Number three, priority, how does he do it cost effectively in the world? Particularly where we're heading towards where, you know, the budgets are gonna get tighter. So how do I move more dollars to innovation while I continue to drive more efficiency in my platform? And so cloud is the future. How does he make the best use of the cloud both for his developers and his operations team? Right? >>What's happening in serverless, I, in 2017, Andy Chassy was in the cube. He said if AWS or if Amazon had to build all over again, they would build in, in was using serverless. And that was a big quote. We've mined that for years. And as you were talking about developer productivity, I started writing down all the things developers have to do. Yep. With it, they gotta, they gotta build a container image. They said they gotta deploy an EC two instance. They gotta allocate memory, they gotta fence off the apps in a virtual machine. They gotta run the, you know, compute against the app goes, they gotta pay for all that. So, okay, what's your story on, what's the market asking for in terms of serverless? Because there's still some people who want control over the run time. Help us sift through that. >>And it really comes back to the application pattern or the type you're running. If it's a stateless application that you need to spin up and spin down. Serverless is awesome. Why would I wanna worry about scaling it up in, I wanna set up some SLAs, SLIs service level objectives or, or, or indicators and then let the systems bring the resources I need as I need them. That's a perfect example for serverless, right? On the other hand, if you have a, a more of a workflow type application, there's a sequence, there's state, try building an application using serverless where you had to maintain state between two, two steps in the process. Not so much fun, right? So I don't think serverless is the answer for everything, but many use cases, the scale to zero is a tremendous benefit. Events happen. You wanna process something, work is done, you quietly go away. I don't wanna shut down the server started up, I want that to happen magically. So I think there's a role of serverless. So I believe Kubernetes and servers are the new runtime platform. It's not one or the other. It's about marrying that around the application patterns. I DevOps shouldn't care about it. That's an infrastructure concern. Let me just run application, let the infrastructure manage the operations of it, whether it's serverless, whether it's Kubernetes clusters, whether it's orchestration, that's details right. I I I shouldn't worry about it. Right. >>So we shouldn't think of those as separate architectures. We should think of it as an architecture, >>The continuum in some ways Yeah. Of different application workload types. And, and that's a toolkit that the operator has at his disposal to configure and saying, where does, should that application run? Should I want control? You can run it on a, a conveyance cluster. Can I just run it on a serverless infrastructure and and leave it to the cloud provider? Do it all for me. Sure. What, what was PAs? PAs was exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. Write the code once you do the rest. Yeah. Okay. Those are just elements of that. >>And then K native is kinda in the middle, >>Right? K native is just a technology that's starting to build that capability out in a standards way to make serverless available consistently across all clouds. So I'm not building to a, a lambda or a particular, you know, technology type. I'm building it in a standard way, in a standard programming model. And infrastructure just >>Works for me on any cloud. >>The whole idea portability. Consistency. >>Right. Powerful. Yep. >>What are some of the things that, that folks can expect to learn from VMware Tan to AWS this week at the >>Show? Yeah, so there's some really great announcements. First of all, we're excited to extend our, our partnership with AWS in the area of eks. What I mean by that is we traditionally, we would manage an EKS cluster, you visibility of what's running in there, but we weren't able to manage the lifecycle With this announcement. We can give you a full management of lifecycle of S workloads. Our customers have 400 plus EKS clusters, multiple teams sharing those in a multi-tenanted way with common policy. And they wanna manage a full life cycle, including all the upstream open source component that make up Kubernetes people. That ES is the one thing, it's a collection of a lot of open, open source packages. We're making it simple to manage it consistently from a single place on the security front. We're now making tons of service mesh available in the marketplace. >>And if you look at what service MeSHs, it's an overlay. It's an abstraction. I can create an idea of a global name space that cuts across multiple VPCs. I'm, I'm hearing at Amazon's gonna make some announcements around VPC and how they stitch VPCs together. It's all moving towards this idea of abstractions. I can set policy at logical level. I don't have to worry about data security and the communication between services. These are the things we're now enabling, which are really an, and to make EKS even more productive, making enterprise grade enterprise ready. And so a lot of excitement from the EKS development teams as well to partner closely with us to make this an end to end solution for our >>Customers. Yeah. So I mean it's under chasy, it was really driving those primitives and helping developers under continuing that path, but also recognizing the need for solutions. And that's where the ecosystem comes in, >>Right? And the question is, what is that box? As you said last time, right? For the super cloud, there is a cloud infrastructure, which is becoming the new palette, but how do you make sense of the 300 plus primitives? How do you bring them together? What are the best practices, patterns? How do I manage that when something goes wrong? These are real problems that we're looking to solve. >>And if you're gonna have deeper business integration with the cloud and technology in general, you have to have that >>Abstraction. You know, one of the simple question I ask is, how do you know you're getting value from your cloud investment? That's a very hard question. What's your trade off between performance and cost? Do you know where your security, when a lock 4G happens, do you know all the open source packages you need to patch? These are very simple questions, but imagine today having to do that when everybody's doing in a bespoke manner using the set of primitives. You need a platform. The industry is shown at scale. You have to start standardizing and building a consistent way of delivering and abstracting stuff. And that's where the next stage of the cloud journey >>And, and with the economic environment, I think people are also saying, okay, how do we get more? Exactly. We're in the cloud now. How do we get more? How do we >>Value out of the cloud? >>Exactly. Totally. >>How do we transform the business? Last question, AJ for you, is, if you had a bumper sticker and you're gonna put it on your fancy car, what would it say about VMware tan zone aws? >>I would say tan accelerates apps. >>Love >>It. Thank you so much. >>Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Appreciate it. Always great to be here. >>Pleasure. Likewise. For our guest, I'm Dave Ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube, the leader in emerging and enterprise tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to "theCUBE." Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is day three of our wall-to-wall coverage of VMware Explore. John and I are pleased to welcome back one of our alumni, Muddu Sudhakar, the CEO of AISERA. Welcome to the program, Muddu. It's great to meet you. >> Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for having me. Thank you, John. >> Great to see you again. You're like an industry analyst coming on "theCUBE". You should be like a guest analyst, breaking down. I know you got your own company to run, and by the way, the recent funding you had, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> In a market that's not getting a lot of funding. You get an up around. Congratulations on that. >> Thank you. >> Business is good? >> Very good, thank you. Look, Goldman Sachs Investing, along with Zoom and Thoma Bravo, it was great for us. >> Great stuff. Well, I'm glad we could get you in. This day three, Lisa and I and Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson have all been talking to everyone for two days here at VMware Explore, formerly VMworld, our 12th year covering their annual conference, as you know, and we've been telling the executives, but day three is more of, we're going to mix it up. We're going to bring people in and get their opinions about Supercloud, does VMware go post-Broadcom? Obviously, that's going to happen. Looks like nothing's going to stop that from happening. What's next? What's the impact? Who wins? Who loses? VMware certainly not acting like they're going to get gutted. They're all full throttle ahead. They're laying down some announcements, vSphere 8, you got vSAN 8, they got cloud-native, they're talking multi-cloud. VMware's not looking like they're flinching. What's going on, in your view, outside of the bubble that we're here in San Francisco, out in the real world, in the trenches. What are people talking about? What do you see? >> Lot to unpack. (all laugh) >> Start at wherever you want. >> Yes. You know, I was a VMware alumni too. >> Yes >> You sold the company to VMware. You know the inside. Okay, So then, even then- >> I worked with Paul and Pat and Raghu. It's great to be back at VMware now. I think there's a lot going on in VMware. VMware is here to stay. The brand will stay. The VMware customers will stay for years to come. I think Broadcom and VMware, I think it's a great industry consolidation, the way in which I see it. And it is going to help all the customers too, right? Broadcom, having such a large foot play into both CA, the software business, the hardware business. I think what will happen is that Broadcom will try to create a hybrid cloud of their own with VMware. So there'll be a fourth player in the cloud industry. And then back to John, your Supercloud. The Supercloud by definition, there'll be private clouds, public clouds, hybrid clouds. I think Broadcom with VMware will help your vision of the Supercloud and what your customers are asking. >> Yeah, one of the things I want to get your thoughts on, Lisa and I were talking yesterday with the executives, AJ Patel in particular, he's a middleware guy. >> Right. >> So what he did was Oracle. He did a lot of the fusion stuff at Oracle. He now runs Modern Apps. And you came in at the time, I think, when they were just getting that app vision going, and Paul Moritz actually had it early with his 2010 vision, but too early on the app side. But that ended up happening too. So the question is, is Broadcom going to be this middleware layer, and treat the cloud like hardware. And then, apps or apps. Companies are apps. In a digital transformation, technology is the company. >> Right >> So the company is the app. >> That's right, >> Is an application. So apps and hardware, middle, a middleware model emerging. Do you think they're going for that? Or am I just making this up in my head? >> No, I think to me, I see Broadcom as much more, they're like a peer company at the high level. So they're funded by- >> Like a private equity company. >> Private equity company. >> You mean from a dollar standpoint. >> From a dollar standpoint. So Broadcom is going to fund companies. They're going to buy companies. They bought CA, they bought all the other assets. So Broadcom will have always hardware. The middle level could be VMware, but they also have CA, right? They have a bunch of apps here. So I see the Broadcom is also using VMware to run applications. So the consolidation will be they'll create a Supercloud using VMware. They're going to own their own apps. I don't think Broadcom's story is stopped. Its journey to come. They're going to buy more acquisitions, more apps companies. I won't be surprised, in the future, they buy Zendesk. I won't be surprised, in the future, they buy other apps companies, SaaS companies and cloud enterprise companies. Right? So that's where the P is coming. So the broad conversion is, I need a base middleware, like you're saying. There's no other middleware on top of hardware better than VMware. >> So do you think that they'll keep the stuff that's coming out of the other? 'Cause we've been speculating on "theCUBE" this week. They have the core business, but there's all this stuff that's kind of coming out of the oven that's not EBITDA-oriented yet. Do you think they keep that or they let it go? >> I think that's a great question to hang their CEO of Broadcom. But to me, I think, knowing them, they're going to keep, and if you look at Symantec, they kept parts of Symantec, this whole parts of it. So I think all options are on the table for them, right? They'll do whatever it is. But I think it has to be the ones that high growth companies they may give it. It all goes back to is it a profitability to it or not? But his vision is very good. I want to own the middleware, right? He will own the middleware using VMware to your vision, create a Supercloud and own the apps. So I think you'll see Broadcom is the fourth vendor in the cloud race. You have Microsoft, AWS, Google, and Broadcom is actually going to compete with this four. >> So you think there'll be a hyper scale? They'll be in the top three or four. >> There'll be top four. >> Okay. >> Along with Oracle. So now, we are talking about the five vendors will be Amazon, Azure, Google, Oracle, and Broadcom. >> We had Amazon guy on, Steve Jones. I should have asked him that question. I just don't see that happening yet. They have to have the full hardware side. How do you see that coming in? 'Cause Amazon's innovating at the atom level and they're working on stuff that's physical, transit, physics stuff, like down to the root level. >> I think Broadcom figure, look, they own the chips out right, at the end of the day. They also have a lot of chips such to supply to both mobile and this. So if there's anybody who can figure out the hardware, it will be Broadcom. That is their core of area. They didn't have the core in the software and the middleware. VMware is going to give them the OS, the Kubernetes, the VMs. Once you have that layer, I think you can innovate both up and below, right? So I think, John, I think Broadcom VMware will be a force to reckon with and I think these guys are going to get into healthcare space though. So if you see the way they battle, you and me are talking Lisa, like Microsoft bought new ones, Oracle bought Cerner. So they all paid 30 billion each. So the next battle ground will be, they'll start in the healthcare industry. Somebody's going to go look at the healthcare apps like Epic, right? They're going to look at how we can do the hospitals. They're going to look at hospital healthcare professionals. That area will be disrupted a lot in the same. >> What other industries do you think, besides healthcare, are ripe for disruption with Broadcom VMware? >> I think endpoint management, like remember VMware bought AirWatch when I was there back then, right? That whole area is called digital experience management. So that endpoint mainly will be disrupted. So Broadcom with VMware will go again into endpoint. I'm talking endpoint could be the servers, desktops, VMware Max, right? Virtual Desktop VDI. So that whole management of mobile devices to desktop, that whole industry will be disrupted. A lot of players are there trying to do more consulting services. I think VMware is a great assets and tools. If I'm Broadcom, my chip sets are going into the endpoint. So that area will be disrupted a lot with Broadcom in VMware. >> Yeah, one of the things that VMware, people have been talking about, is that the CA acquisition that Broadcom did was the playbooks public. Everyone saw what they did. They killed sales and market and they killed all the execs, metaphorically speaking. They fired them. VMware's got a different vibe here. I'm feeling like it could go one way or the other. I think they should keep them, personally. But you don't know. If they're a PE company, they EBIDA driven, maybe it's just simply numbers. >> Right. >> If that's the case, then I'm worried. But VMware's got pride, they got mojo, and they've got expertise in software. Maybe a little bit different circumstance? What's take on this? Or do you think it's going to be black and white to the numbers? >> I think, knowing Hank's playbook, if he knows what he's going to do, right? His playbook will be consistent with Symantec. >> You think he already knows what he wants to do? >> I think so. I think at that level, both with Simulink and Broadcom, they already know the playbook. At this stage the games, people already know their game. It's like a chess move. They already know. They'll look at VMware and see which assets to keep, which one not to keep, which organization, but I think Hank is a master at this one. To me, I'm personally excited with the VMware Broadcom combination. It's a great thing for the industry. It's great for VMware and VMware customers and partners. >> Well, John, you and Dave had a chance to sit down with Raghu. What were some of the things that he unpacked about the Broadcom acquisition? >> He was on talking points. He was on message. He was saying the things that any CEO was going to make a lot of cash on this deal. And he's proud. I think it wasn't about the money for him. I sensed that he's certainly going to make a lot of cash on this deal as an executive, but he's a long time VMware employee and a well loved and revered person. He's done a lot of great work, technically set the agenda. So I think their mindset is we're going to just continue to do an amazing job as VMware as we are and then let Broadcom, let the chips fall where they may, and hopefully, if they do a good job, maybe they'll either refactor some of their base plans or they laid it all out in the field, so to speak. So that's my vibe. Now specifically, he made some comments, like, "Yeah, we're really proud." And he staying technical. He's still like, "This is really happening." So I think he's going to, essentially, to the very end, be like, "Cross cloud and hybrid cloud. This is our third generation." So there he's hanging onto the VMware third act that they're saying, and he hopes that it comes home. And I think he's going to just deal with it. He didn't seem flustered and he didn't seem overly confident. >> Okay. >> I guess that's my opinion. What do you think? >> Personally worked with Raghu, worked for Raghu, so I think of him as the greatest CEO for VMware ever could have, right? It's a journey. It was Paul Maritz, then Pat Gelsinger, now Raghu. I think he's in the right place, right time to lead VMware, and Raghu's doing a fantastic job. And personally, getting these two companies married, I think Raghu did the right partnership with Broadcom. >> Well, I think if this event's any indication if they're just sitting back and waiting, they're not, and this event was well done, it was pulled off. The branding's amazing. I thought they did a good job with the name change. And then in light of all the Broadcom issues, the execution was great. It was not a bad show here. It was a good show. It wasn't terrible at all. People were excited. I think the ecosystem also felt that Broadcom, like an electronic shock to the system, like something's going to happen. Let's wait and see. I'm going to go to the event to see if it's going to be around and kind of getting a feel first party, in person, what's happening. Again, remember VMware didn't have an event since 2019. This is a community that thrives on physical, face to face camaraderie, community. And so, I think the show was a success. And I think that's a result of Raghu and his team. >> Because we have a booth there for AISERA, my company, we have a booth. We are offering coffee and donuts. You guys should come by and tell people. You'll get a free coffee and a donut, but it's one of the best shows I've seen. Well, I think people after pandemic are back, people are interacting. We have 500 people in one day at our booth. So for a startup company like us, getting that much crowd is unheard of. So it's great. We're very excited. >> The vibe from the partner community, I had a chance to talk with a lot of partners, AWS, NetApp, Rackspace, really seems like the partnerships side of VMware is very, very strong and the partners are excited about what's next for VMware. Did you have a chance to talk with any of the partners? >> Actually, look. I'm actually meeting with Karen. So Karen Egan is my contact at VMware too, and Sumit, (indistinct) a bunch of the customer success organization. We talk to people in their digital experience management team. We are very excited to be partner with both VMware's customer, partner, and all experts, right? I'll need the VMware ecosystem for my company to thrive. So for us, VMware customers are my customers and leveraging VMware APIs into VMware, that's that's important for us. >> Lisa, that's a great question because that brings us to the question of, okay, clearly this show also proves to us from our conversations and exploring the floor, the wave is coming. This next cloud wave is here. We're calling it Supercloud, whatever you want to call it, it's coming and it's real, and people know it. And also the lines of sight into economics around where people can fit in this next level ecosystem is becoming clear. So I think people kind of know what's the right side of the street to be on in this next shift. So that's coming. That's independent of Broadcom. So the floor represents to me the excitement for not only the VMware workload powering software, with or without Broadcom, but the next wave. So the question is if Broadcom goes down their path and Hank does what he does, who wins and who loses on where things flow? Because this energy is going to flow somewhere. Is it going to flow to AWS? Is it going to flow to Microsoft? Is it going to flow to HPE with Green Lake getting some great traction? NetApp's doing great. We just heard from them. So the partners aren't hurting. It's only going to get better. re:Invent's right around the corner. That's a packed house. Their ecosystem's growing like a weed. Who wins? 'Cause the customers at VMware are enterprise customers. They're used to being serviced. They have sales reps from Microsoft, they got sales reps from Hewlett Packard Enterprise, real senior enterprise stakeholders there. So someone's going to end up filling in as VMware settles into their broad composition. Who wins and who loses, in your mind? >> A Very good question. So my thing is, I think it's... Well, I put Microsoft and Amazon the winners. In that way, actually mean Microsoft will win because in a true Supercloud, your vision, back to hybrid cloud on-prem and public cloud, VMware disruption with Broadcom, as if there's any bridge in the market, Microsoft will take advantage of it. Azure, right? Amazon VMware is there. Then, you have Google and VMware. So I think Azure will probably try to take advantage of this, but very next will be Amazon, right away there. That leaves you with Google Cloud, right? Google Cloud is the one. So they're the people that are able to figure out what to do in this equation. And then, obviously, the other one is Oracle. Oracle has no hearts in this game. So to me, the people who are going to probably lose impact model will be Oracle if the Broadcom and VMware will happen. So it's Azure, Amazon winning the race, probably Google is right behind them. Oracle will be distinct. Other side is Dell. Actually, Dell has no game in this. Our Broadcom and VMware, Dell should be the one. >> Dell might have a little secret sauce on the table with Michael Dell. >> That's true. >> If he convert his shares, he might be the largest shareholder at Broadcom. >> That's true. >> He could end up owning all the back. >> So he may be the winner all the time. (all laugh) >> Don't count him out. Well, this is a good question. I want to just double click on this. So you get customer dynamic. Where do they go? You get the community, which is a big force multiplier in this world, and if you had to bet on community between Microsoft and Amazon Web Services, Amazon trumps Microsoft on force multiplier community. Ecosystem, AWS beats Microsoft on that one. So it's interesting because it's now multiple dimensions we're talking about here. It's customers. That's the top order, right? The customers. But also, you got community, the people who put on sessions, the people in the community that are the influencers that are leading the trends, and developers are very trending, relative to what kind of code they use, what's their environments? So the developers is changing that landscape and, ultimately, the ecosystem of partners, right? 'Cause there's a lot more overlap between AWS and VMware's ecosystem than there is between Microsoft and that. And HPE is just starting an ecosystem. So it's going to be very interesting. >> It is. It is. I think Broadcom and VMware cannot be any best time for the industry, right? As you said. HP is coming in. Oracle is coming in. And to your point, VMware and AWS are another best partners. Now, this going to create any gap for Microsoft to enter for Azure? I think that's where the market is saying that it's going to open up a hybrid cloud player for Microsoft to enter what is to be a tight relationship with VMware and Amazon. Right? So people will rethink through their apps. And more importantly, the end point to me. See, the key is, like you talk about with Supercloud, nobody's talking about Supercloud for the endpoint. >> You mean Edge or security? >> Not an Edge endpoint. Endpoint could be your devices, laptop, desktop. >> Or a building or a light bulb or whatever. >> Desktop or VDI desktop services servers, right? So we call it endpoint cloud. There's no endpoint Supercloud. John, that's an area that you should double click on. Super cloud for the servers is different from Supercloud for endpoint. >> Well, SuperCloud.World is the URL out there. If you're interested in Supercloud, we are adding tracks to that body of work. So we had our event on August 9th. It was virtual event, where Dave and I are going to add a data track, we're going to add a security track, and we should add, maybe, an endpoint workspace, work. >> That's a VMware brand, Workspace and Horizon. So that whole workspace endpoint for Supercloud is going to happen. >> Yes. >> Right. That kind of deviates from- >> Do you like Supercloud? Are you bullish on Supercloud? >> I'm very bullish on Supercloud because I, myself, is running on-prem in VPCs, public clouds, private clouds. Supercloud kind of composites it so app should be designed. 'Cause I don't want to design an app for one cloud. It's not going to work. So it's like how Java came and I can run it on any platform. The ideas you build it on Supercloud, run it, whatever you want. Right? >> That's exactly it. So what would you want to see in Supercloud as it evolves? And we were part of this open conversation. This is our point for today. We're going to have a great panel come up later today. We're going to have the influencers come on to debate what Supercloud should or shouldn't be. If you want to add to the contribution, we'll add this into the work, what should what's needed in Supercloud? What's table stakes. >> I think we need a Java compiler that will happen for Supercloud. I build it once, execute in any place I want, right? Using the Terraform, HashiCorp (indistinct) So what I don't want is keep building this thing for every cloud. I want to abstract that out. The whole idea of Supercloud is how Java gave me the abstraction for hardware 20 years back or 30 years back, we need the same abstraction for the cloud today. Otherwise, I'm customizing for VM Cloud, I'm customizing for AWS, Azure, Google Cloud. We, as an application vendor, it's too hard to keep doing it. I have now thousand tuners. I don't need thousand DevOps people. I need maybe 10 DevOps people. So there's a clear abstraction complexity that industry should develop, and your concept Supercloud with everybody thinking that, and it has to start from the grassroots with ecosystem. >> What do you think about the participants in this abstraction layer? Because someone said on "theCUBE" here this week, the people in the abstraction layer shouldn't be participants in the below or above the abstraction. >> I think it should be everybody, right? It's all inclusive. You need the apps guys to come in. You need the OS players to come in. You need the cloud vendors to come in, infrastructure. So you need everybody. >> Okay, let's just say that you were the spokesperson for the Supercloud organization, Supercloud.World. How would you sell AWS on why it's important for them? >> It's because they can build it and sell it in AWS and multiple AWS Gov Cloud, AWS On-prem, VPCs. It's even important for them, their expansion, their market time upfront. If I'm (indistinct), if I'm built on Supercloud, I can increase my time share. Otherwise I'm bringing only to public cloud. >> Okay, so I'll say, I'm Amazon and we have a concept called "One Way Doors." We don't want to go through a one way door. Is Supercloud a one way door for them? What's in it for them? Do they make more? Does it help their ecosystem? And the same question from Microsoft Azure and Google cloud. >> They're make more money. They're making their apps run in multiple places. It's a natural expansion. You are solving your customer problems for Amazon and DGC, right? My job is give people choices. I give choice to Lisa. Lisa can run it on public cloud. John, you can run it on VPC, AWS. >> So you're saying, so you think customers are asking for this right now? >> Everybody's asking. >> But don't really know how to say it? >> Customers are asking. Partners are asking. All of us are asking. >> Okay, what's the ask? >> Ask is give me a one place to build applications and run it anywhere without adding the complexity. >> Okay. Done. That's Supercloud. It'll ship tomorrow. (Lisa laughs) Well done. (John laughs) All right, well done. Final question for you. Lisa and I have been talking with folks here. What advice would you give the folks that are in here? 'Cause we have a lot of activity, people with marketing their solutions and products. They're trying to put a voice out there around thought leadership and trying to figure out what side of the street they should be on relative to the next 10 years as they're here at VMware Explore, as the next gen cloud comes around. What's the right narrative? What's the right positioning for companies to be on right now to be the most relevant and in the flow? >> I don't know about 10 years, but right now we are in difficult economic times, right? Markets are down. Inflation is up. So I think the fastest cost, people should focus on cost. How can it take cost? Automation is the key, right? Whether you use AI or automation , like you and me talking, John, last week, right? That's important. Every CEO I talk to is focused on cost. How do I cut my cost? How can I do with fewer resources? How can I do with fewer people, right? So the new budget right now is cut your budget in half. So every company, every exec should think about how can you be a good citizen? How can I get growth and scale? How can I do more with less? And that should be the next 12 months. >> That was a lot of the theme of conversations that I had with the VMware ecosystem, doing more with less. So that's definitely on everyone's minds. >> Right, and that's what my company is fully focused on. AISERA is all about AI automation. How can we solve your thing? We want to be solving customer problem. We are like your automation engine for your enterprise, right? We are a platform of platform. That's why I like the Supercloud. I can run AISERA as a platform on top of Supercloud. >> Excellent. >> Wow! If only we had more time! I know that you guys could really dig into Supercloud and take it even further. So you have to come back, Muddu. >> I will. >> He always wants to come back. >> I will be back. >> He's on the team. He's has contributed to the open source effort of Supercloud. Thank you. >> Yes. >> All right, thank you so much for joining John and me and kind of breaking down your vision on VMware Broadcom and the future. Next step, we've got to get some customers on here. I really want to understand what the customer experience is going to be like, but we'll have to another segment on that one. >> We will do that. Thank you, Lisa, for having me. >> My pleasure. >> John. >> Thank you very much. Thank you. >> For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCUBE" live on day three of our coverage of VMware Explore. We'll be back after a short break. (upbeat corporate music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone to the Cube's live coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022. I'm John Forer host of the cube with Dave Lisa Martin, Dave Nicholson, two sets for three days. We're on three days, we're here breaking down all the action of what's going on around VMware is our 12th year covering VMware's user conference. Formerly known as world. Now explore as it explores new territory, its future multi-cloud vSphere eight and a variety of new next generation cloud. We're here on day three, breaking out. This is day three more, more intimate, much more deeper conversations. And we have coming back on the Q Keith Norby with NetApp, the worldwide product partner solutions executive at NetApp Keith. Great to see you industry to veteran cube alumni. Thanks for coming back. It's >>Good to see you >>Again. Yeah. I wanted to bring you back for a couple reasons. One is I want to talk about the NetApp story and also where that's going with DM VMware as that's evolving and, and is changing and, and with Broadcom and, and the new next generation, but also analyzing kind of the customer impact piece of it. You're like an analyst who've been in the industry for a long time. Been commentating on the cube. VMware's in an interesting spot right now because I, I mean, I love the story. I mean, we can debate the messaging. Some people are very critical of it a little bit too multicloud, not enough cloud native, but I see the waves, right? I get it. Virtualization kicked ass tech names. Now it moves to hybrid cloud. And now this next gen is a, you know, clear cloud native multi-cloud environment. I, I get that. I can see, I can, I can get there, but is it ready? And the timing. Right. And do they have all the peace parts? What's the role of the ecosystem? These are all open questions. >>Yeah. And, and the reality is no one has a single answer. And that's part of the fun of this, is that not just a NetApp, but the rest of the ecosystem and videos here, as an example, who, who is thinking, you know, the Kings of AI are gonna be sitting at a V VMware show and yet it's absolutely relevant. So you have a very complex set of things that emerge, but yet also it's, it's, that's not overcomplicated. There is a set of primary principles that, you know, organizations I think are all looking to get to. And I think the reality is that this is maturing in different spurts. So whether it's ecosystem or it's, you know, operations modes and several other factors that kind of come into it, you know, that's part of the landscape, >>You know, I gotta ask you, you know, you and I are both kind of historians. We always talk about what's happened and happening and gonna happen. You know, it's interesting 12 years covering world and now explore NetApp has always been such a great company. We've been, I've been following that company, you know, since, you know, 1997, you know, days. And, and certainly with the past decade of the cloud or so the moves you guys may have been really good, but NetApp's never really had the kind of positioning in the VMware story going back in the past 12 years. And this keynote, you guys were mentioned in the keynote. Yeah. Has there ever been a time where NetApp was actually mentioned in a keynote at world or now explore? >>Well, you know, when we started this relationship back when I was a partner, I really monetized and took advantage of some of the advantages that NetApp had with VMware back in the early days, we're talking to ESX three days and they were dominant to the point where the rest of, you know, the ecosystem was trying to catch up. And of course, you know, a lot of competition from there, but yeah, it, it, it was great seeing a day, one VMware keynote with NetApp mentioned in the same relevance as AWS and VMware, which is exactly where we've been. You know, one thing that NetApp has done really well is not just being AWS, but be in all the hyperscalers as first party services and having a, a portfolio of other ways that we deal with things like, you know, data governance and cloud data management and cloud cloud backup, and overall dealing with cyber resiliency and, and ransomware protection and list goes on and on. So we've done our job to really make ourself both relevant and easy for people to consume. And it was great to see VMware and AWS come together. And the funny part was that, you know, we had on, on the previous cube session, you have VMware and AWS in between NetApp, all talking about, we have this whole thing running at all three of our booths. And that's fantastic. You >>Know, I, I can say because I actually was there and documented it and actually wrote about it in the early 20 11, 20 12, the then CEO Georgian's and I had an interview. He actually was the first storage company to actually engage with AWS back then. Yeah. I mean, that's a long time ago. That's that's 10 years ago. And then everyone else kind of followed EMC kind of was deer in the headlights at that point. They were poo pooing, AWS. Oh yeah, no, it'll never work either of which will never work. It's just a, a fluke. Yeah. For developers. NetApp was on the Amazon web services partnership train for a long time. >>Yeah. It, it, it's really amazing how early we got on this thing, which you can see the reason why that matters now is because it's not only in first party service, but that's also very robust and scalable. And this is one of the reasons why we think this opens it up. And, you know, as much as you wanna talk about the technology capabilities in, in this offering, the funny part is, is the intro conversation is how much money you save. So it unlocks all the, the use cases that you weren't able to do before. And when you, when you look at use case after use case on these workloads, they were hell held back. The number one conversation we had at this show was partner after partner, organization, after organization that came into our booth and talked to us about, yeah, I've got a bunch of these scenarios that I've been holding back on because I heard whispers about this. Now we're gonna go in >>Unleash those. All right. So what are, what's the top stories for you guys now at NetApp? What's the update it's been a while, since we had a cube update with you guys, what are you guys showing of the show? What's your agenda? What are your talking points? What's the main story? >>Well, for us, it's, it's, it's, it's always, you know, a cloud and on-prem combination of priorities within our partner ecosystem. The way we kind of communicate that out is really through three lenses. You know, one is on the hybrid cloud opportunity, people taking data center and modernizing the data center with the apps and getting the cloud, just like we're delivering here at this VMware world show. Also the AI and modern data analytics opportunity, and then public cloud, because really in a lot of these situations at apps, you know, the, the buyer, the consumer, the people that are interested in transforming are looking at it from different lenses. And these all start with really the customer journeys, the data ops buyer is different than the data center ops buyer. And, and that's exactly who we target this in is, is NetApp. I think, focuses relentlessly on how we reach them. And by the way, not just on storage products, if you look at like our instant cluster acquisition and all these other things, we're trying to be as relevant, we, as we can in data management and you know, whether that's pipelining data management or storing data management, that's >>Where we're there. You know, I, I was talking with David Nicholson, cuz we have, you know, we joked together. I say the holy Trinity, he goes with the devil's triangle. I'm Catholic, gotta know what his, his denomination is, but storage, networking, and compute. Obviously the, the three majors, it never changes. And I think it was interesting now, and I wanna get your reaction to this and what NetApp's doing around it is that if look at the DevOps movement, it's clearly cloud native, but the it ops is not it anymore. It's basically security and data I'm I'm oversimplifying, but DevOps, the developers now do a lot of that. I call it work in, in the CSD pipeline, but the real challenge is data and ops. That's a storage conversation. Compute is beautiful. You got containers, Kubernetes, all kinds of stuff going on with compute, move, compute around, move the data to compute. But storage is where the action is for cyber and data ops. Yeah. And AI. So like storage is back. They never left, but it's, it's transformed to even be more important because the role of hyper-convergence shows that compute and storage go well together. What's your take on this and how is NetApp modernized to, to solve the data ops and take that to the next level and of obviously enable and, and enable in great security and or defense ability. >>Yeah. And that's why no one architecture is gonna solve every problem. That's why, when we look at the data ops buyer, there's adjacencies to the apps buyer, to the other cloud ops buyer. And there's also the fin ops buyer because all of 'em have to work together. What we're, what we're focusing on. Isn't just storing data. But it's also things around how you discover govern data. You know, how you protect data, even things like in the ed workspace, the chip manufacturers, how we use cloud bursting to be able to accelerate performance on chip design. So whether you're translating this for the industry vernacular about how we help say in the financial sector for AI and what we do within Invidia, or it's something translated to this VMware opportunity on AWS, you know, what we've put together is, is something that has as much meaningful relevance for storing data, but also for all the other adjacencies that kind of extend off there. >>Talk about what you're doing with your partner. I saw last night I did, I did a fly by a NetApp event. It was Nvidia insight, which is a partner, an integrator partner. So you got a lot of the frontline on the front lines, you got partners and you got, you know, big solutions with NetApp and now vendors like Nvidia, what are you actually selling? What's what's getting, I guess what's being put together, not selling, I'm obviously selling gear and what, but like solutions, but what's being packaged to the customer. Where does, what does and video fit in? What are you guys? And what's the winning formula. Take us through the highlights. >>Yeah. And so the VMware highlights here are obviously that we're trying to get infrastructure foundations to just not have, be, be trapped in one cloud or anyone OnPrem. So having a little more E elasticity, but if you extend that out, like you, like you mentioned with a partner that's trying to, to go drive AI within Nvidia, you know, NetApp doesn't create any AI deals cuz no one starts an AI journey with storage. They always start it with the, a with the data model. So the data scientists will actually start these things in cloud and they'll bring 'em on prem. Once the data sets get to a, a big enough scenario and then they wanna build it into a multi-cloud over time. And that's where Nvidia has really led the charge. So someone like an insight or other partners could be Kindra or, or Accenture, or even small boutique partners that are in the data analytics space. They'll go drive that. And we provide not just data storage, but are really complimentary infrastructure. In fact, I always say it like on the AI story alone, we have an integration for the data scientists. So when they go pull the data sets in, you can either do that as a manual copy that takes hours sometimes days, or you can do it instantaneously with our integration to their Jupyter notebook. So I say for AI, as an example, NetApp creates time for data scientists. Got >>It. And where's the, the cloud transformation with you guys right now? How is the hybrid working? Obviously you got the public and hybrids, a steady state right now multi-cloud is still a little fantasy in terms of actual multi-cloud that's coming next, but hybrid and cloud, what's the key key configuration for NetApp what's the hot products? >>Well, I think the key is that you can't just be trapped in one location. So we started this whole thing back with data fabric, as you know, and it's built from there up into, into more of the ops layer and some of the technology layers that have to compliment to come with it. In fact, one of the things that we do that isn't always seen as adjacency to us is our spot product on cloud, which allows you to play in the finops space to be able to look at the analyzed spend and sort of optimized environments for a DevOps environment cloud, to be able to give back a big percentage of what you probably misallocate in those operating models. Once you're working with NetApp and allow it to re re redeploy it in the place that you wanna spend it, you know, so it's, it's both the upper and lower stories coming together. >>Yeah. I was on the walking around the hallway yesterday and I was kind of going through the main event last night, overheard people talking about ransomware. I mean, still ransomware is such a big problem. Security's huge. How are you guys doing there? What's the story with security? Obviously ransomware is a big storage aspect and, and backup recovery and whatnot. All that's kind of tied together. How does NetApp enable better security? What's the story >>There? Yeah, it's funny because that's, that's where a lot of the headlines are at this show at every other show is security for us. It's really about cyber resilience. It is one of the key foundational parts of our hybrid cloud offerings. So as we go out to the partners, you mentioned, you know, insight and there's others, you know, CDW ahead here, and the GSI hosting providers, they're all trying to figure out the security opportunity because that is live. So we have a cyber resiliency solution that isn't just our snapshot technologies, but it's also some of the discovery data governance. But also, you know, you gotta work this with ecosystem, as we said, you know, you have all the other ISVs out there that have several solutions, not just the traditional data protection ones, but also the security players. Because if you look at the full perimeter and you look at how you have to secure that and be able to both block remediate and bring back a site, you know, those are complex sets of things that no one person owns. But what we've tried to do is really be as, as meaningful and pervasive and integrated to that package as possible. That's why it's a lead story in the hybrid clouds. >>Can you share for a minute, just give the NetApp commercial plug cuz you guys have continued to stay relevant. What's the story this year for the folks watching that our customers or potential customers, what's the NetApp story for this year? >>Well, the net, the nets right for this year is kind of what I mentioned, which is, you know, we're in this multi-cloud world. So whether you're coming at this from any perspective, we have relevancy for, for the, the on-prem place that you've always enjoyed us, but at the opposite of the spectrum, if you're coming at us from an AWS show or the cloud op the cloud ops buyer, we have a complete portfolio that if you never knew net from the on-prem, you're gonna see us massively relevant in that, in that environment. And you just go to an AWS show or a Microsoft Azure, so, or a Google show, you'll see us there. You'll see exactly why we were relevant there. You'll see them mention why we're relevant there. So our message is really that we have a full portfolio across the hybrid multi-cloud from anyone buyer perspective, to be able to solve those problems, but by the way, do it with partners cuz the partners are the ones that complete all this. None of us on our own, AWS, Microsoft, VMware, NetApp, none of us have the singular solution ourselves. And we can't deliver ourselves. You have to have those partners that have those skills, those competencies. And that's why we, we leverage it that way. >>Great, great stuff. Now I gotta ask you what what's going on in your world with partners. How's it going? What's the vibe what's that just share some insight into what's happening inside the partners? Are they happy with the margins? Are they shifting behavior? What are some of the, the high order bit news items or, or trends going on at the, on the front lines with your partners? >>Well, I think listen, the, the, the challenges pitfalls, the, the objections, the, all the problems that have been there in the past are even more multiplied with today's economy and all the situations we've gone through with COVID. But the reality is what's emerged is an interesting kind of tapestry of a lot of different partner types. So for us, we recognize that across the traditional GSIs, you see these cloud native partners emerging, which is an exciting realm, you know, to look at folks that really built their business in the cloud with no on-prem and being relevant with them, just consulting partners alone. Like the SAP ecosystem has a very condensed set of partners that really drive a lot of the transformation of SAP. And a lot of them don't, you know, don't do product business. So how does someone like NetApp be relevant with them? You gotta put together an offering that says we do X, Y, and Z for SAP. And so it's, it's a combination of these partners across the, the different >>Ecosystems. Yeah. And I, and I, I'm gonna, I wanna get your reaction to something and you probably don't, you don't have to go out, out in the limb and, and put NetApp in a, in a position on official position. But I've been saying on the cube that no matter what happens with VMware's situation with Broadcom, this is not a dying market, right? I mean like you you'd think when someone gets bought out or, or intention bought out, that'd be like this, this dark cloud that would hang over the, the company and this condition is their user conference. So this is a good barometer to get a feel for it. And I gotta tell you, Sunday night here at VMware Explorer, the expo floor was not dead. It was buzzing. It was packed the ecosystem and even the conversations and the positionings, it's all, all growth. So, so I think VMware's in a really interesting spot here with the Broadcom, because no matter what happens that ecosystem's going to settle somewhere. Yeah. It's not going away cuz they have such great customer base. So, you know, assume that broad Tom is gonna do the right thing and they keep most of the jewels they'll keep all the customers. So, but still that wave is coming. Yeah. It's independent of VMware. Yeah. That's the whole point. So what happens next? >>Well, I think, you know, we, >>We, you guys are gonna get mop up in business. Amazon's gonna get some business, Microsoft, HPE, you name it all gonna, >>Yeah. I think, you know, we've, we've been in business with Broadcom for a long time, whether it be the switch business, the chip business, everything in between. And so we've got a very mature relationship with them and we have a great relationship with VMware. It's it's best. It's almost ever been now and together. I think that will all just rationalize and, and settle over time as this kind of goes through both the next Barcelona show and when it comes back here next year, and I think, you know, what you'll see is probably, you know, some of the stuff settle into the new things they announced here at the show and the things that maybe you haven't heard from, but ultimately the, these, these, these solutions that they have to come forward with, you know, have to land on things that go forward. And so today you just saw that with VMware trying to do VMware cloud and AWS, they realized that there was a gap in terms of people adopting and wanting to do a storage expansion without adding compute. So they made a move with us that made total sense. I think you're gonna see more of those things that are very common sense, ways to solve the, the barriers to, you know, modernization, adoption and maturity. That's just gonna be a natural part of the vetting. And I think they'll probably come a lot more. >>It's gonna be very interesting. We interviewed AJ Patel yesterday. He heads up he's SVP G of the modern app side. He's a middleware guy. So you can almost connect the dots kind of where we're going with this. Yeah. So I assume there's a nice middleware layer of developing everybody wins yeah. In this, if done properly. So it's clearly that VMware, no matter what happens at Broadcom from this show, my assessment's all steam all steam ahead. No, one's holding back at this point. >>Yeah. It's funny. The, the most mature partners we talk to have this interesting sort of upper and lower story and the upper story is all about that, that application data and middleware kind of layer. What are you doing there to be relevant about the different issues they run into versus some of the stuff that we've grown up with on the infrastructure side, they wanna make that as, as nascent as possible, like infrastructure's code and all this stuff that the automation platforms do. But you're right. If you don't get up into that application, middleware space, you know, and work on that, on that side of the house, you know, you're not gonna be >>Relevant. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, you know, most people, people take it literally. It doesn't mean middleware. We don't mean middleware. We mean that what middleware was yeah. In the old metaphor just still has to happen. That's where complexity solved. You got hardware, essentially cloud and you got applications, right. So it's all, all kind of the same, but not >>Yeah. In a lot of cases, it could be conceived as even like pipelining, you know, it's it's, you have data and apps going through a transformation from the old style and the old application structures to cloud native apps and a, a much different architecture. The, the whole deal is how you're relevant there. How you solving real problems about simplifying, improving performance, improving securities, you mentioned all those things are relevant and that's where, that's where you have to place >>Your bets. I love that storage is continuing to be at the center of the value proposition. Again, storage compute, networking never goes away. It's just being kind of flexed in new ways just to continue to say, deliver better value. Keith, thanks for coming on the queue. Great to see you for the, see you again, man, day three for coming back on and give us some commentary. Really appreciate it. And congratulations on all the success with the partners and having the cloud story. Right. Thanks. Cheers. Okay. More cube coverage. After this short break day three, Walter Wall coverage. I'm John furier host Dave ante, Lisa Martin, Dave Nicholson, all here covering VMware. We'll be back with more after this short break.

>>Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage of VM wear Explorer, 2022 formerly VM world. The Cube's 12th year covering the annual conference. I'm Jennifer Daveon. We got Jason Bloomberg here. Who's a Silicon angle contributor guest author, president of inte analyst firm. Great to see you, Jason. Thanks for coming on the queue. >>Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks a lot. >>And thanks for contributing to Silicon angle. We really appreciate your articles and, and so does the audience, so thanks for that. >>Very good. We're happy >>To help. All right. So I gotta ask you, okay. We've been here on the desk. We haven't had a chance to really scour the landscape here at Moscone. What's going, what's your take on what's going on with VMware Explorer, not world. Yeah. Gotta see the name change. You got the overhang of the, the cloud Broadcom, which from us, it seems like it's energized people like, like shocked to the system something's gonna happen. What's your take. >>Yeah, something's definitely going to happen. Well, I've been struggling with VMware's messaging, you know, how they're messaging to the market. They seem to be downplaying cloud native computing in favor of multi-cloud, which is really quite different from the Tansu centric messaging from a year or two ago. So Tansu is still obviously part of the story, but it's really, they're relegating the cloud native story to an architectural pattern, which it is, but I believe it's much more than that. It's really more of a paradigm shift in how organizations implement it. Broadly speaking, where virtualization is part of the cloud native story, but VMware is making cloud native part of the virtualization story. Do so >>Do you think that's the, the mischaracterization of cloud native or a bad strategy or both? >>Well, I think they're missing an opportunity, right? I think they're missing an opportunity to be a cloud native leader. They're well positioned to do that with Tansu and where the technology was going and the technology is still there. Right? It's not that that >>They're just downplaying it. >>They're just downplaying it. Right. So >>As, as they were security too, they didn't really pump up security at >>All. Yeah. And you know, vSphere is still gonna be based on Kubernetes. So it's, they're going to be cloud native in terms of Kubernetes support across their product line. Anyway. So, but they're, they're really focusing on multi-cloud and betting the farm on multi-cloud and that ties to the change of the name of the conference. Although it's hard to see really how they're connecting the dots. Right. >>It's a bridge you can't cross, you can't see that bridge crossing what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, I thought that was a clever way of saying, oh, we're exploring new frontiers, which is kinda like, we don't really know what it is >>Yet. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the term Explorer was probably concocted by a committee where, you know, they eliminated all the more interesting names and that was the one that was left. But, you know, Raghu explained that that Explorer is supposed to expand the audience for the conference beyond the VMware customer to this broader multi-cloud audience. But it's hard to say whether you >>Think it worked. Was there people that you recognize here or identified as a new audience? >>I don't think so. Not, not at this show, but over time, they're hoping to have this broader audience now where it's a multi-cloud audience where it's more than just VMware. It's more than just individual clouds, you know, we'll see if that works. >>You heard the cl the cloud chaos. Right. Do you, do you think they're, multi-cloud cross cloud services is a solution looking for a problem or is the problem real? Is there a market there? >>Oh, oh, the cloud chaos. That's a real problem. Right? Multi-cloud is, is a reality. Many organizations are leveraging different clouds for different reasons. And as a result, you have management security, other issues, which lead to this chaos challenge. So the, the problem is real aria. If they can get it up and running and, you know, straightened out, it's gonna be a great solution, but there are other products on the market that are more mature and more well integrated than aria. So they're going to, you know, have to compete, but VMware is very good at that. So, you know, I don't, I don't count the outing. Who >>Do you see as the competition lay out the horses on the track from your perspective? >>Well, you know, there's, there's a lot of different companies. I, I don't wanna mention any particular ones cuz, cuz I don't want to, you know, favor certain ones over others cuz then I get into trouble. But there's a, a lot of companies that >>Okay, I will. So you got a red hat with, you got obvious ones, Cisco, Cisco, I guess is Ashi Corp plays a role? Well, >>Cisco's been talking about this, >>Anybody we missed. >>Well, there's a number of smaller players, including some of the exhibitors at the, at the show that are putting together this, you know, I guess cloud native control plane that covers more than just a single cloud or cover on premises of virtualization as well as multiple clouds. And that's sort of the big challenge, right? This control plane. How do we come up with a way of managing all of this, heterogeneous it in a unified way that meets the business need and allows the technology organization, both it and the application development folks to move quickly and to do what they need to do to meet business needs. Right? So difficult for large organizations to get out of their own way and achieve that, you know, level of speed and scalability that, that, that technology promises. But they're organizationally challenged to, >>To accomplish. I think I've always looked at multi-cloud as a reality. I do see that as a situational analysis on the landscape. Yeah, I got Azure because I got Microsoft in my enterprise and they converted everything to the cloud. And so I didn't really change that. I got Amazon cause that's from almost my action is, and I gotta use Google cloud for some AI stuff. Right. All good. Right. I mean that's not really spanning anything. There's no ring. It's not really, it's like point solutions within the ecosystem, but it's interesting to see how people are globbing onto multi-cloud because to me it feels like a broken strategy trying to get straightened out. Right. Like, you know, multi-cloud groping from multi-cloud it feels that way. And, and that makes a lot of sense cuz if you're not on the right side of this historic shift right now, you're gonna be dead. >>So which side of the street do you wanna be on? I think it's becoming clear. I think the good news is this year. It's like, if you're on this side of the street, you're gonna be, be alive. Yeah. And this side of the street, not so much. So, you know, that's cloud native obviously hybrid steady state mul how multi-cloud shakes out. I don't think the market's ready personally in terms of true multi-cloud I think it's, it's an opportunity to have the conversation. That's why we're having the super cloud narrative. Cause it's a lit more attention getting, but it focuses on, it has to do something specific. Right? It can't be vaporware. The market won't tolerate vaporware and the new cloud architecture, at least that's my opinion. What's your reaction? Yeah. >>Well the, well you're quite right that a lot of the multiple cloud scenarios involve, you know, picking and choosing the various capabilities each of the cloud provider pro offers. Right? So you want TensorFlow, you have a little bit of Google and you want Amazon for something, but then Amazon's too expensive for something else. So you go with a Azure for that or you have Microsoft 365 as well as Amazon. Right? So you're, that's sort of a multi-cloud right there. But I think the more strategic question is organizations who are combining clouds for more architectural reasons. So for example, you know, back backup or failover or data sovereignty issues, right, where you, you can go into a single cloud and say, well, I want, you know, different data and different regions, but they may a, a particular cloud might not have all the answers for you. So you may say, okay, well I want, I may one of the big clouds or there's specialty cloud providers that focus on data sovereignty solutions for particular markets. And, and that might be part of the mix, right? Isn't necessarily all the big clouds. >>I think that's an interesting observation. Cause when you look at, you know, hybrid, right. When you really dig into a lot of the hybrid was Dr. Right? Yeah. Well, we got, we're gonna use the cloud for backup. And that, and that, what you're saying is multi-cloud could be sort of a similar dynamic, >>The low-head fruit, >>Which is fine, which is not that interesting. >>It's the low hanging fruit though. It's the easy, it's that risk free? I won't say risk free, but it's the easiest way not to get killed, >>But there's a translate into just sort of more interesting and lucrative and monetizable opportunities. You know, it's kind of a big leap to go from Dr. To actually building new applications that cross clouds and delivering new monetization value on top of data and you know, this nerve. >>Yeah. Whether that would be the best way to build such applications, the jury's still out. Why would you actually want to do well? >>I was gonna ask you, is there an advantage? We talked to Mariana, Tess, who's, you know, she's CTO of into it now of course, into it's a, you know, different kind of application, but she's like, yeah, we kinda looked hard at that multiple cloud thing. We found it too complex. And so we just picked one cloud, you know, in, for kind of the same thing. So, you know, is there an advantage now, the one advantage John, you pointed this out is if I run on Microsoft, I'll make more money. If I run on Amazon and you know, they'll, they'll help me sell. So, so that's a business justification, but is there a technical reason to do it? You know, global presence, there >>Could be technical reason not to do it either too. So >>There's more because of complexity. >>You mean? Well, and or technical debt on some services might not be there at this point. I mean the puzzle pieces gotta be there, assume that all clouds have have the pieces. Right. Then it's a matter of composability. I think E AJ who came on AJ Patel who runs modern applications development would agree with your assessment of cloud native being probably the driving front car on this messaging, because that's the issue like once you have the, everything there, then you're composing, it's the orchestra model, Dave. It's like, okay, we got everything here. How do I stitch it together? Not so much coding, writing code, cuz you got everything in building blocks and patterns and, and recipes. >>Yeah. And that's really what VMware has in mind when they talk about multi-cloud right? From VMware's perspective, you can put their virtual machine technology in any cloud. So if you, if you do that and you put it in multiple clouds, then you have, you know, this common, familiar environment, right. It's VMware everywhere. Doesn't really matter which cloud it's in because you get all the goodness that VMware has and you have the expertise on staff. And so now you have, you know, the workload portability across clouds, which can give you added benefits. But one of the straw men of this argument is that price arbitrage, right. I'm gonna, you know, put workloads in Amazon if it's cheaper. But if then if Amazon, you know, Azure has a different pricing structure for something I'm doing, then maybe I'll, I'll move a workload over there to get better pricing. That's difficult to implement in practice. Right. That's so that's that while people like to talk about that, yeah. I'm gonna optimize my cost by moving workloads across clouds, the practicalities at this point, make it difficult. Yeah. But with, if you have VMware, any your clouds, it may be more straightforward, but you still might not do it in order to save money on a particular cloud bill. >>It still, people don't want data. They really, really don't want to move >>Data. This audience does not want do it. I mean, if you look at the evolution, this customer base, even their, their affinity towards cloud native that's years in the making just to good put it perspective. Yeah. So I like how VMware's reality is on crawl, walk, run their clients, no matter what they want 'em to do, you can't make 'em run. And when they're still in diapers right. Or instill in the crib. Right. So you gotta get the customers in a mode of saying, I can see how VMware could operate that. I know and know how to run in an environment because the people who come through this show, they're like teams, it's like an offsite meeting, meets a conference and it's institutionalized for 15 plus years of main enterprise workload management. So I like, that's just not going away. So okay. Given that, how do you connect to the next thing? >>Well, I think the, the missing piece of the puzzle is, is the edge, right? Because it's not just about connecting one hyperscaler to another hyperscaler or even to on-premises or a private cloud, it's also the edge, the edge computing and the edge computing data center requirements. Right. Because you have, you could have an edge data center in a, a phone tower or a point of presence, a telco point of presence, which are those nondescript buildings, every town has. Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, we have that >>Little colo that no one knows about, >>Right, exactly. That, you know, used to be your DSL end point. And now it's just a mini data center for the cloud, or it could be the, you know, the factory computer room or computer room in a retailer. You know, every retailer has that computer room in the modern retails target home Depot. They will have thousands of these little mini cloud data centers they're handling their, their point of sale systems, their, you know, local wifi and all these other local systems. That's, that's where the interesting part of this cloud story is going because that is inherently heterogeneous inherently mixed in terms of the hardware requirements, the software requirements and how you're going to build applications to support that, including AI based applications, which are sort of the, one of the areas of major innovation today is how are we going to do AI on the edge and why would we do it? And there's huge, huge opportunity to >>Well, real time referencing at the edge. Exactly. Absolutely. With all the data. My, my question is, is, is, is the cloud gonna be part of that? Or is the edge gonna actually bring new architectures and new economics that completely disrupt the, the economics that we've known in the cloud and in the data center? >>Well, this for hardware matters. If form factor matters, you can put a data center, the size of four, you know, four U boxes and then you're done >>Nice. I, >>I think it's a semantic question. It's something for the marketers to come up with the right jargon for is yeah. Is the edge part of the cloud, is the cloud part of the edge? Are we gonna come up with a new term, super cloud HyperCloud? >>Yeah. >>Wonder woman cloud, who knows? Yeah. But what, what >>Covers everything, but what might not be semantic is the, I, I come back to the Silicon that inside the, you know, apple max, the M one M two M two ultras, the, what Tesla's doing with NPUs, what you're seeing, you know, in, in, in arm based innovations could completely change the economics of computing, the security model. >>As we say, with the AJ >>Power consumption, >>Cloud's the hardware middleware. And then you got the application is the business everything's completely technology. The business is the app. I >>Mean we're 15 years into the cloud. You know, it's like every 15 years something gets blown up. >>We have two minutes left Jason. So I want to get into what you're working on for when your firm, you had a great, great traction, great practice over there. But before that, what's the, what's your scorecard on the event? How would you, what, what would be your constructive analysis? Positive, good, bad, ugly for VMwares team around this event. What'd they get right? What'd they need to work on >>Well as a smaller event, right? So about one third, the size of previous worlds. I mean, it's, it's, it's been a reasonably well run event for a smaller event. I, you know, in terms of the logistics and everything everything's handled well, I think their market messaging, they need to sort of revisit, but in terms of the ecosystem, you know, I think the ecosystem is, is, is, is doing well. You know, met with a number of the exhibitors over the last few days. And I think there's a lot of, a lot of positive things going on there. >>They see a wave coming and that's cloud native in your mind. >>Well, some of them are talking about cloud native. Some of them aren't, it's a variety of different >>Potentially you're talking where they are in this dag are on the hardware. Okay, cool. What's going on with your research? Tell us what you're focused on right now. What are you digging into? What's going on? Well, >>Cloud native, obviously a big part of what we do, but cybersecurity as well, mainframe modernization, believe it or not. It's a hot topic. DevOps continues to be a hot topic. So a variety of different things. And I'll be writing an article for Silicon angle on this conference. So highlights from the show. Great. Focusing on not just the VMware story, but some of the hot spots among the exhibitors. >>And what's your take on the whole crypto defi world. That's emerging. >>It's all a scam hundred >>Percent. All right. We're now back to enterprise. >>Wait a minute. Hold on. >>We're out of time. >>Gotta go. >>We'll make that a virtual, there are >>A lot of scams. >>I'll admit that you gotta, it's a lot of cool stuff. You gotta get through the underbelly that grows the old bolt. >>You hear kit earlier. He's like, yeah. Well, forget about crypto. Let's talk blockchain, but I'm like, no, let's talk crypto. >>Yeah. All good stuff, Jason. Thanks for coming on the cube. Thanks for spending time. I know you've been busy in meetings and thanks for coming back. Yeah. Happy to help. All right. We're wrapping up day two. I'm Jeff David ante cube coverage. Two sets three days live coverage, 12th year covering VMware's user conference called explore now was formerly VM world onto the next level. That's what it's all about. Just the cube signing off for day two. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back everyone to Cube's live coverage, VMware Explorer, 2022 formerly world. I've been saying now I gotta get that out. Dave, I've been sayingm world. It just kind of comes off the tongue when I'm tired, but you know, wall to wall coverage, again, back to back interviews all day two sets. This is a wrap up here with the analyst discussion. Got one more interview after this really getting the analyst's perspective around what we've been hearing and seeing, observing, and reporting on the cube. Again, two sets blue and green. We call them here on the show floor on Moscone west with the sessions upstairs, two floors of, of amazing content sessions, keynote across ed Moscone, north and south SBI here, cloud strategists with the cube. And of course, what event wouldn't be complete without SBE weighing in on the analysis. And, and, and I'm, you know, all kidding aside. I mean that because we've had great interactions around, you know, digging in you, you're like a roving analyst out there. And what's great about what you do is you're social. You're communicating, you're touching everybody out there, but you're also picking up the puzzle pieces. And we, you know, of course we recognize that cuz that's what we do, but you're out, we're on the set you're out on the floor and you know your stuff and, and you know, clouds. So how you, this is your wheelhouse. Great to see you. Good to >>See you. I'm good guys. Thank you. Thank you for having >>Me. So I mean, Dave and I were riffing going back earlier in this event and even before, during our super cloud event, we're reminded of the old OpenStack days. If you remember, Dave OpenStack was supposed to be the open source version of cloud. And that was a great ambition. And the cloud AATI at that time was very into it because it made a lot of sense. And the vision, all the infrastructure was code. Everything was lined up. Everything was religiously was on the table. Beautiful cloud future. Okay. 20 2009, 2010, where was Amazon? Then they just went off like a rocket ship. So cloud ended up becoming AWS in my opinion. Yeah. OpenStax then settled in, did some great things, but also spawns Kubernetes. Okay. So, you know, we've lived through thiss we've seen this movie. We were actually in the trenches on the front lines present at creation for cloud computing. >>Yeah. I was at Rackspace when the open stack was open sourced. I was there in, in the rooms and discussions and all that. I think OpenStack was given to the open source like prematurely. I usually like we left a toddler on the freeway. No, the toddler >>Got behind the wheel. Can't see over the dashboard. >>So we have learned over the years in last two decades, like we have seen the open source rise of open source and we have learned quite a few lessons. And one lesson we learned from there was like, don't let a project go out in the open, tell it mature enough with one vendor. So we did that prematurely with NASA, NASA and Rackspace gave the, the code from two companies to the open source community and then likes of IBM and HPE. No. Now HPE, they kind of hijacked the whole thing and then put a lot of developers on that. And then lot of us sort of second tier startup. >>But, but, but I remember not to interject, but at that time there wasn't a lot of pushback for letting them it wasn't like they infiltrated like a, the vendors always tried to worry about vendors coming in open source, but at that time was pretty people accepted them. And then it got off the rails. Then you remember the great API debate. You >>Called it a hail Mary to against AWS, which is, is what it was, what it was. >>It's true. Yeah. Ended up being right. But the, the battle started happening when you started seeing the network perimeters being discussed, you starting to see some of the, in the trenches really important conversations around how to make essentially cross cloud or super cloud work. And, and again, totally premature it continue. And, and what does that mean today? So, okay. Is VMware too early on their cross cloud? Are they, is multi-cloud ready? >>No >>For, and is it just vaporware? >>No, they're not too early, actually on, on, on, on that side they were premature to put that out there, but this is like very mature company, like in the ops area, you know, we have been using, we VMware stuff since 2000 early 2000. I, I was at commerce one when we started using it and yeah, it was for lab manager, you know, like, you know, put the labs >>Out desktop competition. >>Yeah, yeah. Kind of thing. So it, it matured pretty fast, but now it it's like for all these years they focused on the op site more. Right. And then the challenge now in the DevOps sort of driven culture, which is very hyped, to be honest with you, they have try and find a place for developers to plug in on the left side of the sort of whole systems, life cycle management sort of line, if you will. So I think that's a, that's a struggle for, for VMware. They have to figure that out. And they are like a tap Tansu application platform services. They, they have released a new version of that now. So they're trying to do that, but still they are from the sort of get ups to the, to the right, from that point to the right on the left side. They're lot more tooling to helpers use as we know, but they are very scattered kind of spend and scattered technology on the left side. VMware doesn't know how to tackle that. But I think, I think VMware should focus on the right side from the get ups to the right and then focus there. And then how in the multi-cloud cross cloud. >>Cause my sense is, they're saying, Hey, look, we're not gonna own the developers. I think they know that. And they think they're saying do develop in whatever world you want to develop in will embrace it. And then the ops guys, we, we got you covered, we got the standards, we have the consistency and you're our peeps. You tend then take it, you know, to, to the market. Is that not? I mean, it seems like a viable strategy. I >>Mean, look at if you're VMware Dave and start, you know, this where they are right now, the way they missed the cloud. And they had to reboot that with jazzy and, and, and Raghu to do the databases deal. It's essentially VMware hosted on AWS and clients love it cuz it's clarity. Okay. It's not vCloud air. So, so if you're them right now, you seeing yourself, wow. We could be the connective tissue between all clouds. We said this from day one, when Kubernetes was hitting in the scene, whoever can make this, the interoperability concept of inter clouding and connect clouds so that there could be spanning of applications and data. We didn't say data, but we said, you know, creating that nice environment of multiple clouds. Okay. And again, in concept, that sounds simple, but if you're VMware, you could own that abstraction layer. So do you own it or do you seed the base and let it become a defacto organization? Like a super layer, super pass layer and then participate in it? Or are you the middleware yourself? We heard AJ Patel say that. So, so they could be the middleware for at all. >>Aren't they? The infrastructure super cloud. I mean, that's what they're trying to be. >>Yeah. I think they're trying, trying to do that. It's it's I, I, I have said that many times VMware is bridged to the cloud, right? >>The sorry. Say bridge to >>The cloud. Yeah. Right. For, for enterprises, they have virtualized environments, mostly on VMware stacks. And another thing is I wanna mention touch on that is the number of certified professionals on VMware stack. There it's a huge number it's in tens of thousands. Right? So people who have got these certifications, they want to continue that sort of journey. They wanna leverage that. It's like, it's a Sunco if they don't use that going forward. And that was my question to, to during the press release yesterday, like are there new certifications coming into the, into the limelight? I, I think the VMware, if they're listening to me here somewhere, they will listen. I guess they should introduce a, a cross cloud certification for their stack because they want to be cross cloud or multi-cloud sort of vendor with one sort of single pane. So does actually Cisco and so do many others. But I think VMware is in a good spot. It's their market to lose. I, I, I call it when it comes to the multi-cloud for enterprise, especially for the legacy applications. >>Well, they're not, they have the enterprise they're super cloud enabler, Dave for the, for the enterprise, cuz they're not hyperscaler. Okay. They have all the enterprise customers who come here, we see them, we speak to them. We know them will mingle, but >>They have really good relationships with all the >>Hyperscale. And so those, those guys need a way to the cloud in a way that's cloud operation though. So, so if you say enterprises need their own super cloud, I would say VMware might wanna raise their hands saying we're the vendor to provide that. Yes, totally. And then that's the middleware role. So middleware isn't your classic stack middleware it's middle tissue. So you got, it's not a stack model anymore. It's completely different. >>Maybe, maybe my, my it's >>Not a stack >>Industry. Maybe my industry super cloud is too aspirational, but so let's assume for a second. You're not gonna have everybody doing their own clouds, like Goldman Sachs and, and capital one, even though we're seeing some evidence of that, even in that case, connecting my on-prem to the cloud and modernizing my application stack and, and having some kind of consistency between your on-prem and it's just call it hybrid, like real hybrid, true hybrid. They should dominate that. I mean, who is who, if it's not it's VMware and it's what red hat who else? >>I think red hat wants it too. >>Yeah. Well, red hat and red, hat's doing it with IBM consulting and they gotta be, they have great advantage there for all the banks. Awesome. But what, what about the other 500,000 customers that are >>Out there? If VMware could do what they did with the hypervisor, with virtualization and create the new thing for super cloud, AKA connecting clouds together. That's a, that's a holy grail move right >>There. But what about this PA layer? This Tansu and area which somebody on Twitter, there was a little SNAR come that's V realized just renamed, which is not. I mean, it's, it's from talking to Raghu unless he's just totally BSing us, which I don't think he is. That's not who he is. It's this new federated architecture and it's this, their super PAs layer and, and, and it's purpose built for what they're trying to do across clouds. This is your wheelhouse. What, what do you make of that? >>I think Tansu is a great effort. They have put in lot of other older products under that one umbrella Tansu is not a product actually confuses the heck out of the market. That it's not a product. It's a set of other products put under one umbrella. Now they have created another umbrella term with the newer sort of, >>So really is some yeah. >>Two >>Umbrella on there. So it's what it's pivotal. It's vRealize it's >>Yeah. We realize pivotal and, and, and older stack, actually they have some open source components in there. So, >>So they claim that this ragus claim, it's this new architecture, this new federated architecture graph database, low latency, real time ingestion. Well, >>AJ, AJ that's AJ's department, >>It sounded good. I mean, this is that >>Actually I think the newer, newer stuff, what they announced, that's very promising because it seems like they're building something from scratch. So, >>And it won't be, it won't be hardened for, but, but >>It won't be hardened for, but, >>But those, but they have a track record delivering. I mean, they gotta say that about yeah. >>They're engineering focus company. They have engineering culture. They're their software engineers are top. Not top not, >>Yes. >>What? >>Yeah. It's all relatives. If they, if the VMware stays the way they are. Well, >>Yeah, >>We'll get to that a second. What >>Do you mean? What are you talking >>About? They don't get gutted >>The elephant in the room if they don't get gutted and then, then we'll see it happens there. But right now I love, we love VMware. We've been covering them for 12 years and we've seen the trials, not without their own issues to work on. I mean, everyone needs to work on stuff, but you know, world class, they're very proud of their innovation, but I wanna ask you, what was your observations walking around the floor, talking to people? What was the sense of the messaging? Is it real in their minds? Are they leaning in, are they like enthused? Are they nervous, apprehensive? How would you categorize the attitude of the folks here that you've talked to or observed? >>Yeah. It at the individual product level, like the people are very confident what they're building, what they're delivering, but when it comes to the telling a cohesive story, if you go to all the VMware booth there, like it's hard to find anybody who can tell what, what are all the services under tens and how they are interconnected and what facilities they provide or they can't. They, I mean, most of the people who are there, they can are walking through the economic side of things, like how it will help you save money or, or how the TCR ROI will improve. They are very focused on because of the nature of the company, right. They're very focused on the technology only. So I think that that's the, that's what I learned. And another sort of gripe or negative I have about VMware is that they have their product portfolio is so vast and they are even spreading more thinly. And they're forced to go to the left towards developers because of the sheer force of hyperscalers. On one side on the, on the right side, they are forced to work with hyperscalers to do more like ops related improvements. They didn't mention AI or, or data. >>Yeah. Data storage management. >>That that was weak. That's true. During the, the keynote as well. >>And they didn't mention security and their security story, strong >>Security. I think they mentioned it briefly very briefly, very briefly. But I think their SCO story is good actually, but no is they didn't mention it properly, I guess. >>Yeah. There wasn't prominent in the keynote. It was, you know, and again, I understand why data wasn't P I, they wanted to say about data, >>Didn't make room for the developer story. I think this was very much a theatrical maneuver for Hawk and the employee morale and the ecosystem morale, Dave, then it had to do with the nuts bolt of security. They can come back to get that security. In my opinion, you know, I, I don't think that was as bad of a call as bearing the vSphere, giving more demos, which they did do later. But the keynote I thought was, was well done as targeted for all the negative sentiment around Broadcom and Broadcom had this, the acquisition agreement that they're, they are doing, they agree >>Was well done. I mean, >>You know, if I VMware, I would've done the same thing, look at this is a bright future. We're given that we're look at what we got. If you got this, it's on you. >>And I agree with you, but the, the, again, I don't, I don't see how you can't make security front and center. When it is the number one issue for CIOs, CSOs, CSOs boards or directors, they just, it was a miss. They missed it. Yeah. Okay. And they said, oh, well, there's only so much time, but, and they had to put the application development focus on there. I get that. But >>Another thing is, I think just keynote is just one sort of thing. One moment in this whole sort of continuous period, right. They, I think they need to have that narrative, like messaging done periodically, just like Amazon does, you know, like frequent events tapping into the practitioners on regional basis. They have to do that. Maybe it's a funding issue. Maybe it is some weakness on the, no, >>I think they planning, I talked to, we talked to the CMO and she said, Explorer is gonna be a road show. They're gonna go international with, it's gonna take a global, they're gonna have a lot of wood behind the arrow. They're gonna spend a lot of money on Explorer is what, they're, what we're seeing. And that's a good thing. You got a new brand, you gotta build it. >>You know, I would've done, I would've had, I would've had a shorter keynote on day one and doing, and then I would've done like a security day, day two. I would've dedicated the whole morning, day two keynote to security cuz their stories I think is that strong? >>Yeah. >>Yeah. And I don't know the developers side of things. I think it's hard for VMware to go too much to the left. The spend on the left is very scattered. You know, if you notice the tools, developers change their tools on freaking monthly basis, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's hard to sustain that they on the very left side and the, the, the >>It's hard for companies like VMware to your point. And then this came up in super cloud and ins Rayme mentioned that developers drive everything, the patterns, what they like and you know, the old cliche meet them where they are. You know, honestly, this is kind of what AJ says is the right they're doing. And it's the right strategy meeting that develops where they are means give them something that they like. They like self-service they like to try stuff. They like to, they don't like it. They'll throw it away. Look at the success that comes like data, dog companies like that have that kind of offering with freemium and self-service to, to continue the wins versus jamming the tooling down their throat and selling >>Totally self-serve infrastructure for the, in a way, you know, you said they missed cloud, which they did V cloud air. And then they thought of got it. Right. It kind of did the same thing with pivotal. Right. It was almost like they forced to take pivotal, you know, by pivotal, right. For 2 billion or whatever it was. All right. Do something with it. Okay. We're gonna try to do something with it and they try to go out and compete. And now they're saying, Hey, let's just open it up. Whatever they want to use, let 'em use it. So unlike and I said this yesterday, unlike snowflake has to attract developers to build on their unique platform. Okay. I think VMware's taken a different approach saying use whatever you want to use. We're gonna help the ops guys. And that, to me, a new op >>Very sensitive, >>The new ops, the new ops guys. Yes. Yes. >>I think another challenge on the right right. Is on, on the op site is like, if, if you are cloud native, you are a new company. You just, when you're a startup, you are cloud native, right. Then it's hard for VMware to convince them to, Hey, you know, come to us and use this. Right. It's very hard. It is. They're a good play for a while. At least they, they can prolong their life by innovating along the way because of the, the skills gravity, I call it of the developers and operators actually that's their, they, they have a loyal community they have and all that stuff. And by the way, the name change for the show. I think they're trying to get out of that sort of culty kind of nature of the, their communities that they force. The communities actually can force the companies, not to do certain things certain way. And I've seen that happening. And >>Well, I think, I think they're gonna learn and they already walked back their messaging. Not that they said anything overtly, but you know, the Lori, the CMO clarified this significantly, which was, they never said that they wanted to replace VM world. Although the name change implies that. And what they re amplified after the fact is that this is gonna be a continuation of the community. And so, you know, it's nuanced, they're splitting hairs, but that's, to me walking back the, you know, the, the loyalty and, and look at let's face it. Anytime you have a loyal community, you do anything of change. People are gonna be bitching and moaning. Yeah. >>But I mean, knew, worked, explore, >>Work. It wasn't bad at all. It was not a bad look. It wasn't disastrous call. Okay. Not at all. I'm critical of the name change at first, but the graphics are amazing. They did an exceptional job on the branding. They did, did an exceptional job on how they handled the new logo, the new name, the position they, and a lot of people >>Showed >>Up. Yeah. It worked >>A busy busier than all time >>It worked. And I think they, they threaded the needle, given everything they had going on. I thought the event team did an exceptional job here. I mean, just really impressive. So hats up to the event team at, at VMware pulling off now, did they make profit? I don't know. It doesn't matter, you know, again, so much going on with Broadcom, but here being in Moscone west, we see people coming down the stairs here, Dave's sessions, you know, lot of people, a lot of buzz on the content sold out sessions. So again, that's the ecosystem. The people giving the talks, you know, the people in the V brown bag, you know, got the, the V tug. They had their meeting, you know, this week here, >>Actually the, the, the red hat, the, the integration with the red hat is another highlight of, of, they announced that, that you can run that style >>OpenShift >>And red hats, not here, >>Red hat now here, but yeah, but, but, but >>It was more developers, more, you know, >>About time. I would say, why, why did it take so long? That should >>Have happened. All right. Final question. So what's the bottom line. Give us the summary. What's your take, what's your analysis of VMware explore the event, what they did, what it means, what it's gonna mean when the event's over, what's gonna happen. >>I think VMware with the VMware Explorer have bought the time with the messaging. You know, they have promised certain things with newer announcements and now it, it, it is up to them to deliver that in a very sort of fast manner and build more hooks into other sort of platforms. Right? So that is very important. You cannot just be closed system people. Don't like those systems. You have to be part of the ecosystem. And especially when you are sitting on top of the actually four or four or more public clouds, Alibaba cloud was, they were saying that they're the only VMware is only VMware based offering in mainland China on top of the Alibaba. And they, they can go to other ones as well. So I think, especially when they're sitting on top of other cloud providers, they have to build hooks into other platforms. And if they can build a marketplace of their own, that'll be even better. I think they, >>And they've got the ecosystem for it. I mean, you saw it last night. I mean, all the, all the parties were hopping. I mean, there was, there's >>A lot of buzz. I mean, I pressed, I pressed them Dave hard. I had my little, my zingers. I wanted to push the buttons on one question that was targeted towards the answer of, are they gonna try to do much more highly competitive maneuvering, you know, get that position in the middleware. Are they gonna be more aggressive with frontal competitiveness or are they gonna take the, the strategy of open collaborative and every single data point points to collaborative totally hit Culbert. I wanna do out in the open. We're not just not, we're not one company. So I think that's the right play. If they came out and said, we're gonna be this, you know? >>Yeah. The one, the last thing, actually, the, the one last little idea I'm putting out out there since I went to the Dell world, was that there's a economics of creation of software. There's economics of operations of software. And they are very good on the operation economics of operations side of things that when I say economics, it doesn't mean money only. It also means a productivity practitioner, growth. Everything is in there. So I think these vendors who are not hyperscalers, they have to distinguish these two things and realize that they're very good on the right side economics of operations. And, and that will go a long way. Actually. I think they muddy the waters by when DevOps, DevOps, and then it's >>Just, well, I think Dave, we always we've had moments in time over the past 12 years covering VMware's annual conference, formally world now floor, where there were moments of that's pat Gelsinger, spinal speech. Yeah. And I remember he was under a siege of being fired. Yeah. There was a point in time where it was touch and go, and then everything kind of came together. That was a moment. I think we're at a moment in time here with VMware Dave, where we're gonna see what Broadcom does, because I think what hop 10 and Broadcom saw this week was an EBI, a number on the table that they know they can probably get or squeeze. And then they saw a future value and net present value of future state that you could, you gotta roll back and do the analysis saying, okay, how much is it worth all this new stuff worth? Is that gonna contribute to the EBITDA number that they want on the number? So this is gonna be a very interesting test because VMware did it, an exceptional job of laying out that they got some jewels in the oven. You >>Think about how resilient this company has been. I mean, em, you know, EMC picked them up for a song. It was 640 million or whatever it was, you know, about the public. And then you, another epic moment you'll recall. This was when Joe Tuchi was like the mafia Don up on stage. And Michael Dell was there, John Chambers with all the ecosystem CEOs and there was Tucci. And then of course, Michael Dell ends up owning this whole thing, right? I mean, when John Chambers should have owned the whole thing, I mean, it's just, it's been incredible. And then Dell uses VMware as a piggy bank to restructure its balance sheet, to pay off the EMC debt and then sells the thing for $60 billion. And now it's like, okay, we're finally free of all this stuff. Okay. Now Broadcom's gonna buy you. And, >>And if Michael Dell keeps all in stock, he'll be the largest shareholder of Broadcom and own it off. >>Well, and that's probably, you know, that's a good question is, is it's gonna, it probably a very tax efficient transaction. If he takes all stock and then he can, you know, own against it. I mean, that's, that's, >>That's what a history we're gonna leave it there. Start be great to have you Dave great analysis. Okay. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, winding down after the short break.