(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier host here in Palo Alto, California. theCUBE's second year covering International Women's Day. It's been a great celebration of all the smart leaders in the world who are making a difference from all kinds of backgrounds, from technology to business and everything in between. Today we've got a great guest, Dominique Bastos, who's the senior Vice President of Cloud at Persistent Systems, formerly with AWS. That's where we first met at re:Invent. Dominique, great to have you on the program here for International Women's Day. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John, for having me back on theCUBE. This is an honor, especially given the theme. >> Well, I'm excited to have you on, I consider you one of those typecast personas where you've kind of done a lot of things. You're powerful, you've got great business acumen you're technical, and we're in a world where, you know the world's coming completely digital and 50% of the world is women, 51%, some say. So you got mostly male dominated industry and you have a dual engineering background and that's super impressive as well. Again, technical world, male dominated you're in there in the mix. What inspires you to get these engineering degrees? >> I think even it was more so shifted towards males. When I had the inspiration to go to engineering school I was accused as a young girl of being a tomboy and fiddling around with all my brother's toys versus focusing on my dolls and other kind of stereotypical toys that you would give a girl. I really had a curiosity for building, a curiosity for just breaking things apart and putting them back together. I was very lucky in that my I guess you call it primary school, maybe middle school, had a program for, it was like electronics, that was the class electronics. So building circuit boards and things like that. And I really enjoyed that aspect of building. I think it was more actually going into engineering school. Picking that as a discipline was a little bit, my mom's reaction to when I announced that I wanted to do engineering which was, "No, that's for boys." >> Really. >> And that really, you know, I think she, it came from a good place in trying to protect me from what she has experienced herself in terms of how women are received in those spaces. So I kind of shrugged it off and thought "Okay, well I'm definitely now going to do this." >> (laughs) If I was told not to, you're going to do it. >> I was told not to, that's all I needed to hear. And also, I think my passion was to design cars and I figured if I enroll in an industrial engineering program I could focus on ergonomic design and ultimately, you know have a career doing something that I'm passionate about. So yeah, so my inspiration was kind of a little bit of don't do this, a lot of curiosity. I'm also a very analytical person. I've been, and I don't know what the science is around left right brain to be honest, but been told that I'm a very much a logical person versus a feeler. So I don't know if that's good or bad. >> Straight shooter. What were your engineering degrees if you don't mind sharing? >> So I did industrial engineering and so I did a dual degree, industrial engineering and robotics. At the time it was like a manufacturing robotics program. It was very, very cool because we got to, I mean now looking back, the evolution of robotics is just insane. But you, you know, programmed a robotic arm to pick things up. I actually crashed the Civil Engineering School's Concrete Canoe Building Competition where you literally have to design a concrete canoe and do all the load testing and the strength testing of the materials and basically then, you know you go against other universities to race the canoe in a body of water. We did that at, in Alabama and in Georgia. So I was lucky to experience that two times. It was a lot of fun. >> But you knew, so you knew, deep down, you were technical you had a nerd vibe you were geeking out on math, tech, robotics. What happened next? I mean, what were some of the challenges you faced? How did you progress forward? Did you have any blockers and roadblocks in front of you and how did you handle those? >> Yeah, I mean I had, I had a very eye-opening experience with, in my freshman year of engineering school. I kind of went in gung-ho with zero hesitation, all the confidence in the world, 'cause I was always a very big nerd academically, I hate admitting this but myself and somebody else got most intellectual, voted by the students in high school. It's like, you don't want to be voted most intellectual when you're in high school. >> Now it's a big deal. (laughs) >> Yeah, you want to be voted like popular or anything like that? No, I was a nerd, but in engineering school, it's a, it was very humbling. That whole confidence that I had. I experienced prof, ooh, I don't want to name the school. Everybody can google it though, but, so anyway so I had experience with some professors that actually looked at me and said, "You're in the wrong program. This is difficult." I, and I think I've shared this before in other forums where, you know, my thermodynamic teacher basically told me "Cheerleading's down the hall," and it it was a very shocking thing to hear because it really made me wonder like, what am I up against here? Is this what it's going to be like going forward? And I decided not to pay attention to that. I think at the moment when you hear something like that you just, you absorb it and you also don't know how to react. And I decided immediately to just walk right past him and sit down front center in the class. In my head I was cursing him, of course, 'cause I mean, let's be real. And I was like, I'm going to show this bleep bleep. And proceeded to basically set the curve class crushed it and was back to be the teacher's assistant. So I think that was one. >> But you became his teacher assistant after, or another one? >> Yeah, I gave him a mini speech. I said, do not do this. You, you could, you could have broken me and if you would've done this to somebody who wasn't as steadfast in her goals or whatever, I was really focused like I'm doing this, I would've backed out potentially and said, you know this isn't something I want to experience on the daily. So I think that was actually a good experience because it gave me an opportunity to understand what I was up against but also double down in how I was going to deal with it. >> Nice to slay the misogynistic teachers who typecast people. Now you had a very technical career but also you had a great career at AWS on the business side you've handled 'em all of the big accounts, I won't say the names, but like we're talking about monster accounts, sales and now basically it's not really selling, you're managing a big account, it's like a big business. It's a business development thing. Technical to business transition, how do you handle that? Was that something you were natural for? Obviously you, you stared down the naysayers out of the gate in college and then in business, did that continue and how did you drive through that? >> So I think even when I was coming out of university I knew that I wanted to have a balance between the engineering program and business. A lot of my colleagues went on to do their PEs so continue to get their masters basically in engineering or their PhDs in engineering. I didn't really have an interest for that. I did international business and finance as my MBA because I wanted to explore the ability of taking what I had learned in engineering school and applying it to building businesses. I mean, at the time I didn't have it in my head that I would want to do startups but I definitely knew that I wanted to get a feel for what are they learning in business school that I missed out in engineering school. So I think that helped me when I transitioned, well when I applied, I was asked to come apply at AWS and I kind of went, no I'm going to, the DNA is going to be rejected. >> You thought, you thought you'd be rejected from AWS. >> I thought I'd be, yeah, because I have very much a startup founder kind of disruptive personality. And to me, when I first saw AWS at the stage early 2016 I saw it as a corporation. Even though from a techie standpoint, I was like, these people are insane. This is amazing what they're building. But I didn't know what the cultural vibe would feel like. I had been with GE at the beginning of my career for almost three years. So I kind of equated AWS Amazon to GE given the size because in between, I had done startups. So when I went to AWS I think initially, and I do have to kind of shout out, you know Todd Weatherby basically was the worldwide leader for ProServe and it was being built, he built it and I went into ProServe to help from that standpoint. >> John: ProServe, Professional services >> Professional services, right. To help these big enterprise customers. And specifically my first customer was an amazing experience in taking, basically the company revolves around strategic selling, right? It's not like you take a salesperson with a conventional schooling that salespeople would have and plug them into AWS in 2016. It was very much a consultative strategic approach. And for me, having a technical background and loving to solve problems for customers, working with the team, I would say, it was a dream team that I joined. And also the ability to come to the table with a technical background, knowing how to interact with senior executives to help them envision where they want to go, and then to bring a team along with you to make that happen. I mean, that was like magical for me. I loved that experience. >> So you like the culture, I mean, Andy Jassy, I've interviewed many times, always talked about builders and been a builder mentality. You mentioned that earlier at the top of this interview you've always building things, curious and you mentioned potentially your confidence might have been shaken. So you, you had the confidence. So being a builder, you know, being curious and having confidence seems to be what your superpower is. A lot of people talk about the confidence angle. How important is that and how important is that for encouraging more women to get into tech? Because I still hear that all the time. Not that they don't have confidence, but there's so many signals that potentially could shake confidence in industry >> Yeah, that's actually a really good point that you're making. A lot of signals that women get could shake their confidence and that needs to be, I mean, it's easy to say that it should be innate. I mean that's kind of like textbook, "Oh it has to come from within." Of course it does. But also, you know, we need to understand that in a population where 50% of the population is women but only 7% of the positions in tech, and I don't know the most current number in tech leadership, is women, and probably a smaller percentage in the C-suite. When you're looking at a woman who's wanting to go up the trajectory in a tech company and then there's a subconscious understanding that there's a limit to how far you'll go, your confidence, you know, in even subconsciously gets shaken a little bit because despite your best efforts, you're already seeing the cap. I would say that we need to coach girls to speak confidently to navigate conflict versus running away from it, to own your own success and be secure in what you bring to the table. And then I think a very important thing is to celebrate each other and the wins that we see for women in tech, in the industry. >> That's awesome. What's, the, in your opinion, the, you look at that, the challenges for this next generation women, and women in general, what are some of the challenges for them and that they need to overcome today? I mean, obviously the world's changed for the better. Still not there. I mean the numbers one in four women, Rachel Thornton came on, former CMO of AWS, she's at MessageBird now. They had a study where only one in four women go to the executive board level. And so there's still, still numbers are bad and then the numbers still got to get up, up big time. That's, and the industry's working on that, but it's changed. But today, what are some of the challenges for this current generation and the next generation of women and how can we and the industry meet, we being us, women in the industry, be strong role models for them? >> Well, I think the challenge is one of how many women are there in the pipeline and what are we doing to retain them and how are we offering up the opportunities to fill. As you know, as Rachel said and I haven't had an opportunity to see her, in how are we giving them this opportunity to take up those seats in the C-suite right, in these leadership roles. And I think this is a little bit exacerbated with the pandemic in that, you know when everything shut down when people were going back to deal with family and work at the same time, for better or for worse the brunt of it fell on probably, you know the maternal type caregiver within the family unit. You know, I've been, I raised my daughter alone and for me, even without the pandemic it was a struggle constantly to balance the risk that I was willing to take to show up for those positions versus investing even more of that time raising a child, right? Nevermind the unconscious bias or cultural kind of expectations that you get from the male counterparts where there's zero understanding of what a mom might go through at home to then show up to a meeting, you know fully fresh and ready to kind of spit out some wisdom. It's like, you know, your kid just freaking lost their whatever and you know, they, so you have to sort a bunch of things out. I think the challenge that women are still facing and will we have to keep working at it is making sure that there's a good pipeline. A good amount of young ladies of people taking interest in tech. And then as they're, you know, going through the funnel at stages in their career, we're providing the mentoring we're, there's representation, right? To what they're aspiring to. We're celebrating their interest in the field, right? And, and I think also we're doing things to retain them, because again, the pandemic affected everybody. I think women specifically and I don't know the statistics but I was reading something about this were the ones to tend to kind of pull it back and say well now I need to be home with, you know you name how many kids and pets and the aging parents, people that got sick to take on that position. In addition to the career aspirations that they might have. We need to make it easier basically. >> I think that's a great call out and I appreciate you bringing that up about family and being a single mom. And by the way, you're savage warrior to doing that. It's amazing. You got to, I know you have a daughter in computer science at Stanford, I want to get to that in a second. But that empathy and I mentioned Rachel Thornton, who's the CMO MessageBird and former CMO of AWS. Her thing right now to your point is mentoring and sponsorship is very key. And her company and the video that's on the site here people should look at that and reference that. They talk a lot about that empathy of people's situation whether it's a single mom, family life, men and women but mainly women because they're the ones who people aren't having a lot of empathy for in that situation, as you called it out. This is huge. And I think remote work has opened up this whole aperture of everyone has to have a view into how people are coming to the table at work. So, you know, props are bringing that up, and I recommend everyone look at check out Rachel Thornton. So how do you balance that, that home life and talk about your daughter's journey because sounds like she's nerding out at Stanford 'cause you know Stanford's called Nerd Nation, that's their motto, so you must be proud. >> I am so proud, I'm so proud. And I will say, I have to admit, because I did encounter so many obstacles and so many hurdles in my journey, it's almost like I forgot that I should set that aside and not worry about my daughter. My hope for her was for her to kind of be artistic and a painter or go into something more lighthearted and fun because I just wanted to think, I guess my mom had the same idea, right? She, always been very driven. She, I want to say that I got very lucky that she picked me to be her mom. Biologically I'm her mom, but I told her she was like a little star that fell from the sky and I, and ended up with me. I think for me, balancing being a single mom and a career where I'm leading and mentoring and making big decisions that affect people's lives as well. You have to take the best of everything you get from each of those roles. And I think that the best way is play to your strengths, right? So having been kind of a nerd and very organized person and all about, you know, systems for effectiveness, I mean, industrial engineering, parenting for me was, I'm going to make it sound super annoying and horrible, but (laughs) >> It's funny, you know, Dave Vellante and I when we started SiliconANGLE and theCUBE years ago, one of the things we were all like sports lovers. So we liked sports and we are like we looked at the people in tech as tech athletes and except there's no men and women teams, it's one team. It's all one thing. So, you know, I consider you a tech athlete you're hard charging strong and professional and smart and beautiful and brilliant, all those good things. >> Thank you. >> Now this game is changing and okay, and you've done startups, and you've done corporate jobs, now you're in a new role. What's the current tech landscape from a, you know I won't say athletic per standpoint but as people who are smart. You have all kinds of different skill sets. You have the startup warriors, you have the folks who like to be in the middle of the corporate world grow up through corporate, climb the corporate ladder. You have investors, you have, you know, creatives. What have you enjoyed most and where do you see all the action? >> I mean, I think what I've enjoyed the most has been being able to bring all of the things that I feel I'm strong at and bring it together to apply that to whatever the problem is at hand, right? So kind of like, you know if you look at a renaissance man who can kind of pop in anywhere and, oh, he's good at, you know sports and he's good at reading and, or she's good at this or, take all of those strengths and somehow bring them together to deal with the issue at hand, versus breaking up your mindset into this is textbook what I learned and this is how business should be done and I'm going to draw these hard lines between personal life and work life, or between how you do selling and how you do engineering. So I think my, the thing that I loved, really loved about AWS was a lot of leaders saw something in me that I potentially didn't see, which was, yeah you might be great at running that big account but we need help over here doing go to market for a new product launch and boom, there you go. Now I'm in a different org helping solve that problem and getting something launched. And I think if you don't box yourself in to I'm only good at this, or, you know put a label on yourself as being the rockstar in that. It leaves room for opportunities to present themselves but also it leaves room within your own mind to see yourself as somebody capable of doing anything. Right, I don't know if I answered the question accurately. >> No, that's good, no, that's awesome. I love the sharing, Yeah, great, great share there. Question is, what do you see, what do you currently during now you're building a business of Persistent for the cloud, obviously AWS and Persistent's a leader global system integrator around the world, thousands and thousands of customers from what we know and been reporting on theCUBE, what's next for you? Where do you see yourself going? Obviously you're going to knock this out of the park. Where do you see yourself as you kind of look at the continuing journey of your mission, personal, professional what's on your mind? Where do you see yourself going next? >> Well, I think, you know, again, going back to not boxing yourself in. This role is an amazing one where I have an opportunity to take all the pieces of my career in tech and apply them to building a business within a business. And that involves all the goodness of coaching and mentoring and strategizing. And I'm loving it. I'm loving the opportunity to work with such great leaders. Persistent itself is very, very good at providing opportunities, very diverse opportunities. We just had a huge Semicolon; Hackathon. Some of the winners were females. The turnout was amazing in the CTO's office. We have very strong women leading the charge for innovation. I think to answer your question about the future and where I may see myself going next, I think now that my job, well they say the job is never done. But now that Chloe's kind of settled into Stanford and kind of doing her own thing, I have always had a passion to continue leading in a way that brings me to, into the fold a lot more. So maybe, you know, maybe in a VC firm partner mode or another, you know CEO role in a startup, or my own startup. I mean, I never, I don't know right now I'm super happy but you never know, you know where your drive might go. And I also want to be able to very deliberately be in a role where I can continue to mentor and support up and coming women in tech. >> Well, you got the smarts but you got really the building mentality, the curiosity and the confidence really sets you up nicely. Dominique great story, great inspiration. You're a role model for many women, young girls out there and women in tech and in celebration. It's a great day and thank you for sharing that story and all the good nuggets there. Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and it's been my pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thank you so much for having me. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto getting all the content, check out the other interviews some amazing stories, lessons learned, and some, you know some funny stories and some serious stories. So have some fun and enjoy the rest of the videos here for International Women's Days, thanks for watching. (gentle inspirational music)

(bright music) >> Well, hey, everybody. John Walls here with theCUBE continuing coverage at AWS re:Invent '22. It has been three really fantastic days here at the Venetian in Las Vegas. And we still have more to come with us to talk about Persistent Systems, the Senior Vice President of Cloud at Persistent Dominique Bastos. Dominique, good to see you. >> Pleasure to see you. >> Thanks for joining us here on the queue. >> Thank you for having me. >> Oh, you bet. You bet. >> Thank you. All right. Tell us about Persistent Systems. So, first off, core focus, what you're up to and then we'll jump in from there. >> Sure, sure. So Persistent Systems is a digital engineering solutions and services provider. They've been around for 32 years doing software engineering, innovating in several areas within different verticals. There's over 22,500 people at Persistent now as of my last count. We're in 18 countries. >> Mm. >> And in October we hit the $1 billion annualized recurring revenue mark. >> Oh, that's a good number right there. >> It's a good number. It's a great company. It's been such an interesting journey. I was with AWS for almost seven years before recently joining Persistent, and it almost felt like a such a logical transition in terms of bringing what I've seen in my entire career of interacting with customers and businesses to what Persistent can provide as people are looking to make their journey to the cloud whatever stage they might be at so. >> Right. And we should point out is that SVP of Cloud, but your focus is AWS. >> My focus AWS. >> Other options, other opportunities. >> Right. >> But you're AWS all the way. >> Right. It's a multicloud company because, you know, we really don't believe in dictating to a customer what they need. I think the benefit, one of the differentiators for Persistent is the amount of legacy history that they have across these industries and customers. I mean, 32 years is a lot, and in terms of like software engineering. So it's like really doing the hard work, the heavy lifting. And then seeing what can actually be commoditized, repeatable building solutions within these verticals to help customers accelerate their transformations. >> Mm hmm. >> So... >> You know, when we talk about cloud, I mean, this has been something that's been on the forefront feel like a long time. Right? But yet there are still many and maybe you can help me out with that percentage, whatever of companies who are either haven't begun yet, are just beginning, they're really in a nascent stage of this transformation. And yeah, I found it curious this week as we've talked with different people about where are you in your journey and so and so forth. A lot of people are way back just starting pass go, and aren't as mature as I would've thought. I mean, do you find that to be the case? >> Absolutely. And there's many reasons for that. I mean, I think what I've started, I mean I've been seeing it over the years, but we all know IT and business back then was very much kept separate. >> Two separate animals. >> Two separate animals. >> Yeah. >> IT made the decisions, not in a vacuum, but almost in a vacuum, right? Now, obviously companies who know it's necessary and have embraced it, bring together the function of looking at the technological solutions that they're adopting to solve a business problem. Right? But that business problem really is dictated by the customer need. >> Mm hmm. >> So I think I have seen, you know, in terms of like the life cycle of a business adopting technology, post cloud, there's a lot of enterprises that are still, they've made such big investments in their legacy infrastructure. >> Mm hmm. >> And in actually, you know, the developers and the people that are maintaining those systems, and the different connections to put it in layman's terms between their systems and their customers systems, right? So, that entire scenario makes it very difficult for them to move. >> Mm hmm. >> It's like moving a mountain. So, I would say there's like three ways of looking at it. You have those that kind of want to revitalize their technology, right? Their backend systems, they want to optimize costs, they want to, and my background in technology is specifically in data, kind of I came up as a DBA and built data models, and I've always loved data before it was a thing to love data. (John chuckles) So... >> You were so far ahead of the curve. >> I was ahead of the curve. I was a trendsetter. >> What a trendsetter? >> I'm a trendsetter. (Dominique chuckles) So I think from that perspective they're looking at, you know, these enormous of amounts of data that they've been capturing in these legacy systems that they're so heavily invested in, but they're not able to derive the insights to better serve their customers or to even innovate new revenue streams from that data. But, they're taking the first step to say, look, you know, we can actually operate more smoothly at a lower cost by moving to the cloud. >> Mm hmm. >> So there's that. Then there are those that are looking to actually innovate and create new revenue streams, monetize their data, look at opportunities to integrate feedback that they've been getting from their customers to provide new services. So they're using the cloud journey, they've probably already moved into the cloud. They're starting to look at analytics, and potentially using AIML to facilitate creating these solutions and services. And then there's those that, you know, want to pioneer, and break into new inventions and ways of solving the big world problems. >> Mm hmm. >> Right? I mean, I think that's one thing I noticed in this re:Invent that I thought was so special is there's like a really big focus on humanity, on humans, on you know, as we were talking earlier everything and I myself have like holding books and I don't like people being on their phone when we're having a conversation. (John chuckles) >> Right. But I think, you know, we are where we are. The reality is the world has evolved in such a way that community is no longer, it takes a small village, all, you know everybody knows each other. You have face to face interactions. You're not doing that with your customers either. There's digitally native businesses that have for a long time cropped up in the FinTech space in you know, you name the space, there's a startup that was born in the cloud that can reach customers immediately, and can provide a service that an enterprise that's kind of like weighed down with their legacy systems. They can't pivot fast enough. So, I think, you know, the pioneers think beyond that. How do we use quantum computing? You know, how do we use 3D simulation to anticipate solving big world problems? Whether it's, you know, people no longer, I don't know what the statistics are, but it's very sad. That elderly people, you know, the amount of human contact that they have is very little. You know, and if you could provide, I don't know, an experience, an immersive experience where their memories are triggered, you know, to help them with dementia, or Alzheimer's. >> Sure. >> I mean, those types of things, those are the things that I think that's what excites me about the launches that I see at re:Invent. And I think the innovation, you know, you have to take that journey. Unless you're born in the cloud, you do have to kind of take that journey. >> You got to get there. >> You have to get there. >> Right. Sure. >> But it's so worth it. >> So how about, let's just say, if I'm a health sciences company, or I'm a pharmaceutical or whatever, and so I've got this desire to create this new opportunity you know, with a human, I say, but yeah, but if you're also Persistent Systems and you're working with you know, somebody in FinTech, or somebody in EEG or whatever, you can't really understand my challenges or my problems. I mean, how do you wear those different hats so you can identify not only what the focus of that client is, but also their technology and how you're going to get them to marry up so they can achieve their goals? >> Well, the beauty of being, you know, in a company with teams of people that you work with, I cut across industries. Right? So we have vertical leaders that have very deep subject matter expertise in any number of those areas. You know, we're working with genomics for example. So, for example, you know, we engage with a customer that we've been helping over the past 32 years use technology to bring services to their customers. And now we are seeing an opportunity to help them innovate to keep up for their business for obvious reasons, but also to supply their customers with the new innovative solutions within that industry, right? 'Cause you need that vehicle to kind of deploy and deliver what customers need. The way we do it is from end to end, right? So, we have in the partnership with AWS, we're a partner of AWS, and as such we are able to collaborate with AWS and their customers or bring our customers to the cloud for all the way from assessment to planning to execution. And even within Persistent, we have ways to main operationalize the maintenance of these solutions. So it's really very easy managed services type framework that we work under. In terms of like migration planning, we have competencies within AWS. For looking at migrations we have AIML, we have DevOps. So we have the various competencies aligned with AWS to be able to execute at whatever stage the customer is. But also in terms of like the accelerators that we provide or the frameworks to look at total cost, that cuts across, right? And then we don't kind of like, here's what you needed and buy, never speak to us again. (John chuckles) I mean, I think the beauty of this company and what I really loved when I was first speaking to them is the depth of the relationships with their customers and the longevity of them. So they've really seen their customers grow. And you can only do that if you're there for the long run. >> You've got to be present. >> You have to be present. >> Sure. So how do you handle if people are making this transformation and they're moving into the cloud, but the people they have on staff might not be familiar with it, right? They have great expertise in what they've been doing on these legacy systems, but now you're moving, you're migrating to a new world, new culture, new environment, and you got to get 'em up to speed. And that's not easy. >> No. >> Right? So what do you do, or what does Persistent suggest or what are you doing and with regard to closing that gap into making that bridge so that they can maintain a little bit on their own. >> Yeah. >> They can execute and implement on their own. >> Yep. >> A little bit. They don't need somebody there to stand over their shoulder the whole time. >> I won't geek out on having joined AWS in professional services way back when to migrate a major company to the cloud, and having lived through painstakingly all those problems and blockers and adoption roadblocks that you speak of. >> Mm hmm. >> You know, I think the way Persistent handles it is what I would've done myself, right? If I were to start a company and say how do we help customers simplify their cloud journey, and remove the complexity? I think that's what Persistent Systems does. We, there's training programs that we are aligned to with AWS. So there's up-skilling of development teams, application developers. We collaborate from the top down with executives to look at the resources that they have available. Obviously mission critical systems that cannot sacrifice having engineers pulled away for a new project. You know, you take that into account. I think, you know, when I spoke earlier about assessments, you're not just assessing what needs to be lifted and shifted or refactored or rearchitected, you're looking at, you know, all these applications that are going to move to the cloud. Who owns them? >> Mm hmm. >> You know, do you have a CI/CD pipeline, or a data pipeline built? Well, we're going to need that, right? So, the continuous integration, continuous development of applications, that type of DevOps, obviously security also DevSecOps, we look at it from end to end as well. We have a very strong security practice. So, all those advisory pieces we have, but we also have the capability to execute on it. Where we're not just coming in and saying well this is what you should do. We're kind of in there saying, this is what you should do, here's how we can get you started. And then, you know, it's a collaborative effort with our customers to see how much they still want us to stay versus how much they want to take over. >> Right. It's nice to have a friend. >> Yeah. (John laughs) Who doesn't need a friend. (Dominique laughs) And Persistent Systems is your friend. Dominique, thanks for the time. >> Oh, my pleasure. >> I appreciate it. >> Thanks again for having me. >> Thanks for being here on theCUBE. You bet. >> Absolutely. >> You are watching theCUBE as you well know the leader in high tech coverage. (soft music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS reInvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >> Hi, and welcome to theCUBE virtual and our coverage of AWS reInvent 2020. I'm your host Rebecca Knight. Joining me is Sachin Dhoot, he is the vice president for data and platform engineering at Ellie Mae. Thank you so much for coming on theCUBE, Sachin. >> Nice to be here. >> So we are talking today about Ellie Mae's journey towards data monetization. Before we begin though, I want you to give our viewers a little bit, tell our viewers a little bit about yourself and your role at Ellie Mae. >> Sure. So I'm the vice president for data and platform engineering at Ellie Mae. A little bit about Ellie Mae before I talk about myself. So Ellie Mae, which is now part of ICE Mortgage Technology, a division of Intercontinental exchange is the leading cloud based loan origination platform for the mortgage industry. Our technology solutions actually enable lenders to originate more loans, lower origination cost and reduce the time to close. Or when ensuring the highest degree of compliance quality and efficiency. Our mission as we call it here internally is to automate everything 'automatable' for the residential mortgage industry. So that's what we do here. And we take great pride in doing that. >> Everything automatable, I love it. >> Yes. And if you have gone through the mortgage process, you'll see the number of papers you have to sign. And so we are on the journey to automate as much as possible in this. So as part of this, my charter here so I'm the vice president of data and platform engineering. Like I said, I lead and I'm responsible for all AWS based platform and data solutions including our highly secure, scalable data platform and the global, literally. Just to give you a magnitude of how much data we are talking about; so currently Ellie Mae in its platform stores data of nearly 50% of all US for mortgages. So that's the scale which we are talking about and I'm responsible for having the AWS based data platform to support that. >> So in terms of the data monetization journey like most innovations, it starts with a problem. What was the problem that you were trying to solve here? >> Yes, that's a great question. So earlier in our initial design what used to happen is the customers had access to their loan origination system and data in it. And the way they had access to the data was writing some customer SDK applications to actually export our data from their production systems. So this had its own share of challenges. Like for example, if I wrote some inefficient queries to export out the data, since they were acting on the same production database it used to slow down their loan origination system. Plus they did not get access to all of their data. And we had heard it loud and clear from our customers that not only did they need access to the data, but they also wanted us to manage their data. They did not want to get into managing the database or schema changes and all of that. Plus we also had such a rich industry data set. We are talking about 50% of all US home mortgages. So they were also very interested in using that data to get actionable insights about the industry, about their competitive advantages and develop some innovative services on top of it. So those were the challenges which we were trying to solve. >> So what was the original architecture like you're describing what sounds like a very poor experience for Ellie Mae and the lenders themselves. It sounds clunky and cumbersome. And then also leaving a lot on the table because as you said, it was a rich dataset. What was the original architecture? >> So the original architecture was not a cloud-based architecture. We were in our own private data center and every customer had their own database to work with. So, and it wasn't great architecture at that time when the technologies had not evolved. And we had a highly successful product as a result of that but when it came to data it was not a very good experience for them. So why did their loan origination system was working great? The access to the data was not to the extent what we wanted. >> So using best-in-class technologies from AWS tell us a little bit about the new product. >> Yes. So, our journey really started when we heard all of the customer's feedback and the requirements. Then we basically went back to the drawing board. We said, yes, we have a highly successful encompass product in the market, but we also want to solve this problem without affecting their experience with the loan origination system. So that was the challenge which we had taken internally. So what we did was we evaluated quite a bit of cloud providers and technology stacks and the parameters which we had put in that time because of the scale of data was, we needed unlimited scalability and reliability of any provider. We needed a secure data storage including the personally identifiable information protection. So as you can imagine, we deal with loan mortgages, I mean the mortgage and we pretty much have so much of PII data as we call it. Security is on the forefront for us. So we needed a cloud provider which could match up with that expectation. We needed.. >> AWS, was it? >> AWS was definitely it and there were some other parameters which also we were able to check because of that highly scalable and performance data Lake. We needed a big data Lake for this, storage compute separation. We also needed ability to seamlessly import data from any applications internal or external, right? And AWS absolutely gave us all of this. And we did evaluate a lot of cloud vendors and AWS came up on the top. So AWS along with persistent technologies actually helped us with this evaluation and the development of the data platform. >> So tell our viewers a little bit now about data connect and what it is for lenders now. >> Yeah. So what we did was as any cloud technology, we first developed a common platform and then we started building data connect solutions on top of it, right? So we created solutions based on the customer's needs. So one solution which we have is what we call as the data connects future products. In this, they can replicate, customers can replicate their data from the cloud, from their private data Lake into their warehouse, or they can access reports and run analytical queries directly on our warehouse which is again in the cloud. So all the solutions that are available depending on the customer's needs but that is all separate from the loan origination system. So we made sure that we are not impacting that existing business while creating this new solutions in the market. And all of these were built on AWS. >> But you also took things a step further and explored what was possible if you aggregated data from all lenders the resulting being insights. Tell our viewers a little bit about insights and what it allows. >> Absolutely. So that was a very cool product which we came up with. So again, because of the rich data set, which we have, right? We are in the position right now to aggregate the data and come up with actionable insights on top of the data. And so we call this product insights. This is our latest offering from Ellie Mae, again based off AWS and the data platform. So this product gives us information about the industry dreams on how the mortgage industry is going in US. It gives the lenders the ability to compare themselves with their peers and with the industry. So they can actually benchmark themselves and decide whether they are doing great, not great, what do they have to change? And this is all in near real time. So this is not like a month old data and all that. So that's the beauty of this product. >> And what are you hearing from customers? Because as you said, that real-time benchmarking and understanding how they're doing relative to their rivals is a game changer. It is and customers are super excited about it. We just launched this few months back and we are seeing amazing adoption for this product. In fact, just not the adoption side of things, we are also seeing so many new use cases and requirements coming from the customer now that they understand we have such a massive data and this data can scale and it's not impacted their business. They just want to add more and more things to it so that it can solve their problem. So it gives a unique opportunity for us where we can monetize more but we can also help solve lenders problems. >> Right. Helping them solve the challenges that they're facing. Talk a little bit more about the primary benefits of the solution, the unlimited scalability, the fact that it's fully managed, the storage compute separation. Tell our viewers a little bit more about the benefits. So the benefits about the solutions are, the customers or lenders don't have to worry about how it is managed. It is all taken care of. They just how to access it when they need it. It is available on demand. It is available 24/7. In this time, this year has been especially very busy for us where the interest rates have dropped and the loan volume and the loan applications have just gone through the roof. But I'm very proud to say that Ellie Mae stack or, all of the data solutions, and in fact, all of our other products, they are able to scale and they have been able to scale to the record volume this year, all because of how we have designed it using the AWS technology stack. So the customers really benefit. They just need to focus on their business. They don't have to worry about underlying infrastructure or how things are going to scale if their volume is going to go up or not or is there any security issues of that? We take care of all of those things and this is all a self provision just web based access for some of our products. So they don't even have to do a lot of customization to get hold of these products. >> So I want to ask what's next for you. You just referenced the fact that Ellie Mae's incredibly busy with record mortgage applications, of course, companies and people around the globe are still grappling with the COVID-19 pandemic. What are some of the big trends you're seeing and what's next for Ellie Mae in the coming coming year? >> We have a exciting and a very rich roadmap coming up. So as I started this interview, I said, Ellie Mae is now part of ICE mortgage technology, which is a Intercontinental exchange division. So as part of this transition, which happened recently, we also have under our umbrella, two companies called MERS and Simplifile, which actually touch so if you take MERS as an example, it touches close to 80% of US loans for home mortgages. So we have such a unique opportunity now to not only expand our data set, make it more rich, and then come up with more additional use cases which are going to help solve customer's problem and also make them competitive in the market. So we have a lot of good opportunity related to data and I feel a lot confident because of the data platform and the technology stack we to use. We will be able to handle all of those things. >> Sachin, tell our viewers a little bit about the partners that are helping you on this data monetization journey. >> So AWS definitely helped us in the initial parts in evaluating the design and the solution architects came in and worked with us. But along with that, I would definitely want to mention Persistent Technologies. They came up with a lot of good design suggestions on how we should develop the data platform and the solutions on top of it. Those insights product, which I talked about is done along with their help. So I'm very happy with the partnership I have with the Persistent Technologies and AWS. >> Excellent, well, Sachin Dhoot, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. I really appreciate talking to you >> Same here, nice talking to you. >> Stay tuned for more of theCUBE virtual coverage at AWS reInvent. (upbeat music)

>> From the SiliconAngle media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to theCUBE's Boston-area studio. Welcome back to the program, CUBE alum, Ashok Ramu, Vice President and General Manager of Cloud at Actifio, great to see you. >> Happy New Year, Stu, happy to be here. >> 2020, hard to believe it said, it feels like we're in the future here. And talking about future, we've watched Actifio for many years, we remember when copy data management, the category, was created, and really, Actifio, we were talking a lot before Cloud was the topic that we spent so much talking about, but Actifio has been on this journey with its customers in Cloud for many years, and of course, that is your role is working, building the product, the team working all over it, so give us a little bit of a history, if you would, and give us the path that led to 10C announcement. >> Sure thing. We started the Cloud journey early on, in 2014 or 2013-ish, when Amazon was the only Cloud that really worked. We built our architecture, in fact, we took our enterprise architecture and put it on the Cloud and realized, "Oh my god," you know, it's a world of difference. The economics don't work, the security model is different, the scale is different. So, I think with the 8.0 version that came out in 2017, we really kind of figured out the architecture that worked for large enterprises, particularly enterprises that have diverse data sets and have requirements around, you know, marrying different applications to data sets anywhere they want, so we came up with efficient use of object, we came up with the capability of migrating workloads, taking VMware VMs, bringing up on Azure, bringing up on DCP, et cetera. So that was the first foray into Actifio's Cloud, and since then, we've been just building strength after strength, you know. It's been a building block, understanding our customers, and thank you to the customers and the hyperscalers that actually led us to the 10C release. So this, I believe, we've taken it up a notch wherein, we understand the Cloud, we understand the infrastructure, the software auto-tunes itself to know where it's running on, taking the guessing game out of the equation. So 10C really represents what we see as a launchpad for the rest of the Cloud journey that Actifio's going to embark upon. We have enabled a number of new use cases like AI and ML, data transformation is key, we tackled really complicated workloads like HANA and Sybase and MySQL, et cetera, and in addition to that, we also adopt different native Cloud technologies, like Cloud snapshots, like recovery orchestration of the Cloud, et cetera. >> Yeah, I think it's worth reminding our audience there that Actifio's always been software. And when you talk about, you know, I think back to 2013, 2014, it was the public Cloud versus the data center, and we have seen the public Cloud in many ways looks more and more like what the enterprise has been used to. >> Absolutely. >> And the data centers have been trying to Cloud-ify for a number of years, and things like containerization and Kubernetes is blurring the line, and of course, every hyperscaler out there now has something that reaches their public Cloud into the data center and of course, technologies like VMware are also extending into the public Cloud, or, SAP now, of course is all of the Cloud environment. So with hybrid Cloud and multi-Cloud as kind of the waves of driving, help us understand that Actifio lives in all of these environments, and they're all a little bit different, so how does Actifio make sure that it can provide the functionality and experience that users want, regardless of where it is? >> Absolutely, you said it right. Actifio has always been a software company. And it is our customers that showed us, by Cloudifying their data centers, that we had to operate in the Cloud. So we had on premises VMware Clouds, not before we had Amazon and Azure and Google. So that evolution started much early on. And so, from what, you know, Actifio's a very customer-driven company, be it, you know, all segments of the company are driven by the customers, and in 2019, and even before, when you see a strong trend to migrate workloads, to move workloads, we realized, there is a significant opportunity, because the hardest thing to migrate is the volume of data because it's ever-changing, and it is ever-growing. So, the key element of neutrality was the application itself. Microsoft SQL's a SQL no matter how you run it. It could be on a big Windows machine in your data center or a NGCP, it makes no difference. So Actifio's approach to start application down basically gave us the freedom to say, we're going to create SQL to SQL. I don't know if you're running in Azure, Google, DOP data center, or AliCloud, it makes no difference to me. I understand SQL, I understand SQL's availability groups, I understand logs, I can capture it and give it back to you, so when we took that approach, it kind of automatically gave us infrastructure neutrality, really didn't care. So when we have a conversation with a customer, it basically goes around lines of, "Okay, Mr. Customer, how much data do you have? And what are your key applications? Can you categorize them in terms of priority?" It usually comes out to be databases are the crown jewels, so they're the number one priority in terms of data management, migration, test Av, et cetera. And then, we basically drill down into the ecosystem the databases live into. So, because we walk application down, the conversation is the same whether the customer is in the data center, or in the Cloud. So that is how we've evolved, and that's how we're thinking from a product standpoint, from a support standpoint, and then the overall company is built that way. So it makes it easy for us to adapt a new platform that comes in. So, when you talked about, you know, how does, each Cloud is different, you're absolutely right, the security concepts are different, right? Microsoft is built on active directory, Google is built on something very different. So how do you utilize and how do you make this work? We do have an infrastructure layer that basically provides Cloud-specific capabilities for various Cloud platforms. And that has gotten to a point where it understands and tunes itself from a security standpoint and a performance standpoint. Once that's taken care of, the rest of the application stack, which is over 90% of our software, stays the same, there's no change. And so that is how we kind of tackle this. Because the ecosystem we live in, we have to keep up with two people. We have to keep up with the infrastructure people who are making it bigger, faster, and we also have to keep up with the application people who are making it fancier and more complicated. So that's unfortunately the ecosystem we live in, and taking this approach has given us a mechanism to insulate us from a lot of the complexities of these two environments. >> Yeah, that's great, 'cause when you talk to customers and you say, "What's going on in your environment," change is difficult. So, how many different pieces of what I'm doing do I need to move to be able to take advantage of the modern economics. On the one hand, you know, if I have an application and I like it, well, maybe I could just lift and shift it, but if I'm just lifting, shifting, I'm not necessarily taking advantage of the full Cloud native environments, but I need to make sure that my data is protected, backup, you mentioned security, are of course the top concerns, so. It sounds like, in many ways, you're talking, helping customers work through some of those initiatives, being able to take advantage of new environments, but not need to completely change everything. Maybe, I'd love to hear a little bit, when you talk about the developers and DevOps initiatives that are happening inside customers, where does that impact, where does that connect with what Actifio's doing? >> Well, that's a great question. So, let me start with a real customer example. We have this customer, SEI Investments, who basically, their business model is to grow by acquisition, so they're adding on tens, hundreds of developers every quarter. So it's impossible to keep up with infrastructure needs when you grow at that pace. They decided to adopt a Cloud platform. And with each Cloud platform comes some platform-specific piece that all these developers now have to re-tool themselves. So, I'm a developer, I used to come in the morning, open up my machine and start working away on the application, now I have to do something different, and if there is 300 of me, and the cost of moving to the Cloud was a lot less than training the developers. It was much harder to train the developers because it has been ongoing process. So we were presented the challenge of how do you avoid it? So, when we are able to separate the application layer from the data layer, because of the way we operate, what we present as a solution was to say, just move your, what is the heaviest layer you have? That's the database, okay. And what are the copies you're creating? I'm creating hundreds of copies of my Oracle database, okay. Let's just move that to the Cloud. All of the front-end application doesn't see a change, thanks to the great infrastructure work the Cloud providers do, you add 10 Gigabyte to everywhere. So network is not a problem, computer's not a problem, it's just available on an API call, so you provision that. All they did was a data movement, moved it from Point A to Point B, gives you the flexibility to spend up any number of copies you want in the Cloud, now, your developer tool sets haven't changed, so there's no training required for developers, but from an operations standpoint, you've completely eased the burden of creating a hundred more copies every month, because Cloud is built for that. So you take the elasticity of the Cloud, advantage of that, and provide the data in the last mile to the Cloud, thereby, developers, they will access the application with the same level of ease. So, that is the paradigm we're seeing, we're seeing, you know, in some of our customers, there is faster and better storage provision for Actifio because there are 190 developers working off Actifio, where there's only about a handful of people running production. So, it's a paradigm shift is where we see it. And the pace at which we bring up the application wherein we're able to bring up 150 terabyte article database in three hours. Before Actifio, it used to be, maybe, 30 days, if you were lucky. So it's not just an order of magnitude, it's what you can do with that data, is where we're seeing the shift going to. >> Yeah, it's interesting, when you go back and look at some of the changes that have happened in the Cloud, Cloud storage was one of the earliest discussed use cases there, and backup to the Cloud was one of the earlier pieces of the Cloud storage discussion. Yet, we've seen changes and maturation into what can actually be done, explain a little bit how Actifio enables even greater functionality when you're talking about backup to the Cloud. >> Absolutely. You know, the object storage technology, it's probably the most scalable and stable piece of storage known to mankind, because nobody can build that level of scale that Amazon, Azure, and Google have put into it. From a security standpoint, performance standpoint, and scale standpoint. So I'm able to drop my data in Boston and pick it up in Tokyo seamlessly, right? That's unheard of before. And the biggest impediment to that, was a lot of legacy application data didn't know how to consume this object storage. So what Actifio came up with on onboard technology was to light up the object storage for everybody, and basically make it a performance neutral platform, wherein you take the guessing game out of the customer. The customer doesn't need to go research S3 or Google Nearline or Google Persistent Disk and say I want ten copies there versus five copies there, Actifio figures it out for you. You give us your SLA, you give us your RTOs and RPOs, and we tell you, okay, this is the most cost effective way to store your data. You get the multi-year retention for free, you get the GDPR, appchafe and protection for free, you get the geo-redundancy for free. All this is built into the platform. In addition, you also can run DevOps off the object store. You can run DR off the object store. So we enabled a lot of the legacy use cases using this new technology, so that is kind of where we see the cusp, wherein, in the Cloud, there's always a question and a debate, does D-doop make sense? D-doop consumes a lot of compute, takes a lot of memory, you need to have that memory and compute whether you want it or not. We're seeing a lot more adoption of encryption, where the data is encrypted at source. When you encrypt data, D-doop is just a big compute-churning platform, it doesn't do much for you. So we went through this debate actively, I think four or five years ago, and we figured out, object store's the way to go. You cannot get storage, I mean, it's a buck a terabyte in Google, and dropping. How can you get storage that's reliable, scalable, at a lower cost? All we had to do was actuate the use of that storage, which is what we did. >> Yeah. I'm just laughing a little bit because, you know, gosh, I think back a dozen years ago, the industry knew that the future of storage would be object, yet it's taken a long time to really be able to leverage it and use it, and the Cloud, the hyperscalers of course, have been a huge enabler on that, but we don't want customers to have to think about that it's object underneath, and that's the bridging the gap that I think we've been looking for. There, what else. We talk about really being able to extract the value out of Cloud, you know, data protection, disaster recovery, migrations are all things that are top of mind. >> Yeah, absolutely. All those use cases, and we're seeing some of the top rating CIOs talk about AI and ML. We've had a couple of customers who want to basically take their manufacturing data from remote sites and pump it into Google bit query. Now we all know manufacturing happens in Taiwan and Singapore and all those locations, now how do you take data from all those applications, normalize it, and pump it into Google bit query and get your predictable results on a quarterly basis, it's a challenge. Because the data volumes are large. So with our Cloud technology and our onboard capability, we're able to funnel data directly into Google Nearline, and on a quarterly basis, on a scheduled basis, transform it, push it into bit query, and bring out the results for the end user. So that journey is pretty transformated, from a customer standpoint. What they used to have five people do maybe once a year, now with a push of a button happens every quarter. So it's a change in how the AI and ML analytics evolve. The other element is also you know, our partnership with IBM, we're working very closely with their Cloud bag for data. Cloud bag for data is an awesome platform built to analyze any kind of data that you might have. With Actifio's normalization platform, you basically can feed any data into Actifio and it presents a unified interface into the slow pack, so you can build your analytics workloads very quickly and easily. >> So we've talked a lot about Cloud, one of the other C's of course in 10C is containers, if we look at containerization, when it first started, it was stateless applications, most applications that are running in containers are running for very short period of time, so help us understand where Actifio fits there, what's the problem statement that you are solving? >> Oh, absolutely. So containers are coming up, up and coming and out of reality, and as we see more applications flow into containers, you see the data lives outside the container. Because containers are short-lived, they're microservices, they come up and they go down, and the state is maintained in a storage platform outside the container, so Actifio tackles containers by taking the data protection strategy we have for the storage platform already, Bell defined, but enhancing the data presentation into the container as it comes up. So a container can be brought up in seconds, maybe less. But the container is only brought to life when it can lead to data and start working again, so that's the bridge Actifio actuates. So we understand, you know, the architecture of how a container is put together, how the container system is put together, and basically, we marry the storage and the application consistent in the storage into the container so that the container's databases, or applications, come to life. >> And that could be in a customer's data center, in a public Cloud, Kubernetes enabled, all of that? >> Absolutely, it can be anywhere, and with 10C, what we have done is we've also integrated with Cloud Native Snapshot, so if you talk about net neutrality for the container platform, if it's on premises, we have all kinds of access to the storage, the infrastructure, and the platforms so our processing is very different. If you take it to the Cloud, let's say Google, Google Kubernetes platform is fairly, it's a black box. You get some storage, and you get containers. And you have an API access to the storage. So in Google, we automatically autotune and start taking the Google snapshots to take the storage perfection, so that's the other way we've kind of neutralized the platform. >> Yeah, you've got a, thinking about it just from a customer's standpoint, one of the big challenges there is they've got everything from their big monoliths, they're big databases, through these microservice Cloud native architectures there, and it sounds like you know, is that just one of the fundamental architectural designs to make sure that you can span across those environments and give customers a common look and feel between those environments? >> Absolutely. The single pane of glass is a big askt and a big focus for us, not just across infrastructure, it's across geos and across all platforms. So you could have workloads running AIX6, VMware, in the Cloud, all the way through containers, and manage it all to a single console, to know when was the last good backup, how many copies of the database am I running, and each of these databases could have their own security constructs. So we normalize all of those elements and put them in a single console. >> Okay, 10C, shipping today? >> 10C shipping today, we have early access to a few customers, the general availability releases possibly in the February timeframe. >> Okay, and if I'm an existing Actifio customer, what's the path for me to get to 10C? >> Our support will reach out and do a simple software upgrade, it's available on all Cloud platforms, it's available everywhere, so you will see that on all the marketplaces and the regular upgrade process will get you that. >> Okay, and if I'm not an Actifio customer today, how easy is it for me to try this out? >> Oh, it is very easy, with our Actifio go SAS platform, it's a one-click download, you can download and try it out, try all the capabilities of the platform, it's also available on all the Cloud marketplaces for you to go and access that. >> All right, well, Ashok, a whole lot of pieces inside of 10C, congratulations to you and the team for building that, and definitely look forward to hearing more about the customer deployments. >> Thank you, we have exciting times ahead. >> All right. Lots more coverage from theCUBE throughout 2020, be sure to check out theCUBE.net, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by RedHat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone we're here live in Seattle for KubeCon and Cloud Native Con. I'm John Furrier your host, Stu Miniman from Wikibon here. Next guests Anthony Lye, whose the senior vice president general manager of Cloud Data Services at NetApp, and Jonsi Stergesson, CTO and VP of Cloud Services. Great to have you guys on, great to see you again Anthony. >> As always thank you. >> So first I want to get out there we talked lots in the Kube lounge just to reset. The value parsons of NetApp have significantly been enhanced with the cloud. What is that value proposition? What have you guys seen the explosive headroom for value creation that you guys are enabling with NetApp and the cloud? >> You know what I think NetApp has done over now, probably five years, is really pushed itself to embrace the cloud. To recognize that the cloud is a very important part of everybody's IT infrastructure whether it's an extension of the existing IT infrastructure for things like DR or backup or whether it's the primary platform for legacy workloads or, as we're all here to do, to discuss the refactoring and rebuilding of applications around microservices. I think NetApp chose, unlike all of the traditional storage vendors, to see the cloud as an opportunity and I think it's helped the company and it's helped our customers to operate in what is, I think, is by default now, the end state for many companies is hybrid cloud. >> You guys also made some good moves early on with the cloud. We've documented certainly on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE early on. And then as flash comes in for performance, now you've got compute, storage and networking all being optimized in the cloud, creates app developers an environment where it's programmable infrastructure finally. I mean dev ops is happening, this is where services and notion of compute has gone from standing something up in seconds on the cloud to with functions milliseconds. This is changing the dynamic of applications but you've still got to store the data. Talk about, Jonsi, the impact of the services in piece to the developer, storage, services, provisioning, all that and it covers. >> We are taking, I mean all of our services that are running in all the hyperskills in Google and Azure and AWS and more and even on premise. Our view is our role is always to find the best home for any workload at any given time. Even though it's in public cloud or on premise. However storage has always been sort of left aside, it's always been living in this propietary chunk that is hard to move and the weight of the data is actually quite heavy. So we actually want to use Kubernetes and microservices and resistant volume claims by taking that data and making that very easily migratable replicated between locations, between hyperscalers and sort of adopt a true multi cloud strategy. With data with it not only moving those workloads or applications but the data is key, data is key. >> Sometimes, you know, you want to move the data to a compute and sometimes you want to move compute to the data. >> And that's been validated by Amazon's RDS announcement on VMware, Amazon announced outposting on premises, and the number one thing was latency, work was not yet moving. This is exactly to what you guys have been doing and implementing, today, this is like real product. >> I think the reality of the world is, you know, while there is a ton of innovation that exists in public cloud there are well documented use cases that struggle with a cloud only environment. I think NetApp has chosen to make each one of those three potential persistent stores equal to one another. So whether that's in a traditional on premise and upgrading on premise environments to get better price performance characteristics, embracing the public cloud or combining public and private cloud. >> While it's not trivial NetApp, at it's core, always was software so moving it from a hardware appliance, I mean, back in the day Network Appliance was the original name of the company to a software defined solution to being multi-cloud, you can kind of see that genesis where it can go. A lot of times the tougher part is from the customer standpoint. You know, the traditional person that bought and managed this was a storage administrator and getting them to understand cloud native applications and dev ops and all those things, those are pretty challenging moves so how much of it is education? How much of it is new buying centers inside the company or new clients, help us walk through that. >> Yeah I would make two points in maybe answering to you. So I think NetApp's history, actually 25 years ago, NetApp started off as selling into the developers who were running SUN workstations, who wanted shared everything and NetApp actually you know went around IT and put those appliances into the developers. We built a SaaN business, a very successful SaaN business, with the IT people. Now you're absolutely right, the people around here fall into the, sort of, the modern day dev ops characters. What Google calls the SREs the Site Reliability Engineers. And they're a new breed, they're young, they're doing more and more CICD. Storage is an integral part of what they do but maybe not a primary part. They expect storage to work. We are really lucky you know, a little company called Microsoft and another little company called Google sell our stuff so we get introduced into all of those cloud first, cloud only sort of use cases. Not just of refactoring of primary but building. So we're actually, in many cases now, very relevant to those people but we've been fortunate enough to leverage the big public clouds together. >> So you have a relationship with AWS, Google and Microsoft, Microsoft and Google, which you've just mentioned. You mentioned SRE, Site Reliability Engineer, this is a new persona that's clearly emerging and it has a focus around operations, now IT operations has been around for a long time, dev is changing too but this is, if they sell your stuff, their customers need to operate at scale. This is a big point, can you elaborate on the importance of this and what you guys are doing specifically to help that. >> So the Site Reliability Engineer, he is not doing operations. He is actually in charge of running the workload or the development or the application or the product that comes from development. They have to abide by specific rules that are actually set by the SRE. And to your point, because you were talking about different selling motions and not selling into the storage admin or not selling to traditional IT. This is actually what has actually been really surprising and showcases the power of Kubernetes and how widely adopted it has been, both on premise and in the public cloud because customers are actually coming to us and saying, "Hey we had no idea NetApp was actually "doing all of this in the public cloud. "We had no idea that you had your own Kubernetes services "that actually help solve one of the biggest problems "which is persistent volume claims and application of data." So it's actually coming, and you sort of see how important CNCF is, because they're actually educating the market and educating the enterprise space just as well as the new up and coming development team like I've traditionally come from. So I'm actually seeing that it's easier than I would have sort of thought in the beginning. So they're actually becoming more educated about microservices, more educated about how to run their, actually everybody almost in any company that I go into now, they have the SRE playbook somewhere in their meeting room somewhere and everybody sort of getting educated on how they need to, sort of, elevate themselves from being traditional system administrators into that SRE or dev op role. >> And it's also a cultural thing too, they have to develop, not just the playbook, but have some experience in economies of scale, managing it, and certainly it's a tail wind for you guys, storage because, again, it's also a lot of coating involved they need a pool of resources, storage being one of them. But the other thing that's interesting, those are single clouds, Amazon, Google, multi cloud is really where the action is, right? So multi cloud to me is just, to me, a modern version of multi vendor, which basically is about choice. Choice is critical, but having choice around the app, it becomes the value creator. So if you guys can scale with the app development environments that seems to be a sweet spot. How are you guys talking about that particular point because this becomes an under the covers, a new kind of operations, a new kind of scale, pushing code, not just you know stacking interacting boxes but, like, really making things, patching security things or could have been head of security things so doing things in a really really automated way. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing I'm most proud of at my time at NetApp and what the team does and what the team continues to do is we took a very, very, I think, deliberate perspective that we would deliver storage, but we would do it in a very unique way. That my background was from Saas, I spent my entire career building applications, and when you build an application, you run the application, there is nothing you give the customer and say, "Here, administer it." When you look at a lot of the infrastructure services, they make the customer do a lot of work. So what we did at NetApp was we decided that we ourselves would almost create like an always available protocol that people could just ask for it and it would be there. There was no concept of setting it up or patching it or upgrading it. And that's really I think we have set a bar now on the public clouds that, I think, even the public clouds themselves have not done, and giving those developers that I asked for a storage through an API and all I need to do is ask for capacity and throughput. Nothing else, that's something to a developer they're like, "So now I don't even have to ask "anybody with storage skills. "I can tell my application to ask for it's own storage." >> It's interesting you're living in a new world where you need the scale of a system but the functionality of like an app server. I feel like we're living in that app server days where that middle ground and app development was the key focus, you've got to have both now. You need scalable systems but really application performance. >> And then you add an additional layer because now everybody wants to be able to use the same deployment script, the same configuration management system, Terraform, whatever they're actually using to deploy it on premise or in a public cloud but it needs to be done in a unified manner. This is why it's so important to be upstream compatible and there's a lot of companies out there that are actually destroying that model and not following the true cloud concept. >> Yes give them a slap on the wrist, get in line, fix it! >> If you are going to play in this space with the CNCF and with Kubenetes, you better play by the rules and do the open standards. And so you're actually compatible no matter where your workload resides. >> We've been monitoring how storage is maturing in this whole cloud native Kubenetes ecosystem here. A year ago there were a lot of backroom arguments over what were the right architectures, a few sub projects working through here, it actually blew me away in the keynote this morning to hear that 40% of all applications that are deployed in Kubernetes are stateful. So where are we? What's working? What's good for customers? And what do we still need to work on to kind of solidify the storage data piece of this? >> I think it's interesting, 'cause I think we, sort of, ourselves now consider NetApp to be a data company. Storage is an enabler but what's interesting, everyone talks about their Saas strategy, their PaaS strategy their IaaS strategies. I always ask people, "What's your data strategy?" and that's something I think the CNCF Kubernetes, themselves, recognize that they've done a lot of really great things for compute around the microservices themselves but the storage piece has always been something of a challenge. And we said, about solving that problem, we have an open source project called Trident, that essentially enables people to make persistent volume claims and if the container dies, they can essentially start a new container and pick up the storage exactly where they left off. So we really believe that stateful is an ever increasing percentage of the overall application model. Databases are important things, people need them. >> I would agree with that and that's developing too, it's early on. All right so I want to ask you guys a question, kind of outside the box. Multi cloud certainly is part of a hybrid, what they call a hybrid today, it's really a choice, multi cloud will be a future reality, no matter what anyone says, I believe that. How is multi cloud changing IT investments? Business investments, technical investments or both, what's your guys thoughts on how multi cloud is driving and changing IT investments? >> Well I actually think it offers you the opportunity to have like placement policy algorithms that fit your workload at any given time. For example, if this particular application is latency sensitive, and I created an application that all of a sudden became really popular in Mexico, then I should be able to see which one of the hyperscalers actually has a presence in Mexico City, deploy it there. If I'm under utilizing my private cloud and I have a lot of space on it and there is no specific requirements, it gives you that flexibility to, like I said, always find the best home for your workload at any given time. >> Dynamic policy based stuff? >> Yeah, precisely. And it allows you also, I mean, you can choose to do it whether its based on workload requirements or you can start doing it in a least cost effective route, I mean least cost routing. So it actually impacts both from a technical and a business sense in my opinion. >> I think you know you cannot help but get excited every day with what one cloud delivers over another cloud, and we're seeing something not unlike the arms race, you know, Google does this, then Amazon does this, then Microsoft does this. As developers we're very keen to take advantage of all these capabilities and we want to, in many cases, let the application itself make the decision. >> So yeah Amazons got there, everyone's catching up. Competitions good. All right, final question. Predictions for multi cloud in 2019. What's going to happen? Is there going to be a loud bang? Is there going to be a crash? Is it going to be fruit on the trees? What's the state of the multi cloud predictions for 2019? >> Well I actually believe it's going to become a standard. Nobody should be locked into any region or any one provider, I don't even care if it's on premise or NetOps specific, you should be able to... I mean, I think it's just going to become standard. Everybody has to have a multi cloud strategy and you can see that, like the IDC report that 86% of Fortune 500 companies are adopting multi cloud. And I think I'm actually quite fed up of this hyper cloud stuff because, in my opinion, on premise is just the fourth or the fifth hyperscaler and should be treated as such. So if you actually have that true cloud concept, you should be able to deploy that using the same script, the same APIs to deploy it everywhere. >> As I said in theCube the data center and non print, they're just an edge, a big edge. If it's an operating mall? >> My prediction? Your prediction. >> 2019 is the year of Istio. I think we've become enamored with Kubernetes, I think what Istio brings significantly advances Kubernetes, and we barely scratched the surface, I think, with the service mesh and all of the enhancements and all the contributions that will go into that. I think, you know, that 2019 will probably see as many vendors here next year with Istio credentials and STO capabilities as we see today with Kubernetes. >> Anthony, Jonsi, thanks for coming on, great insights, smart commentary, appreciate it. We should get in the studio and dig into this a little bit deeper. Really a great example of an incumbent, large company, NetApp, really getting a tailwind from the cloud, good smart bets you guys made, programmable infrastructure, dynamic policy routing, all kinds of under the covers goodness from smart cloud deployments. This is where software drives the data. >> Yep data is the new oil, that's what they say right? If you don't have a data set you're not very competitive. >> Thanks for coming on I appreciate it. More Kube coverage here, getting all the breakdown here, the impact of cloud computing at scale, the role of data software, all happening here at the CNCF. This is the KubeCon, I'm John Furrier and Stu Miniman, thanks for watching. More live coverage after this short break.

>> Welcome back to the Cuban Peterborough's chief research officer of Silicon Angle and general manager of Wicked Bond. We're as part of our continuing coverage of the arse a show. We have a great guest Z scaler amid sin. Ha! Welcome to the Cube. >> Thank you for having me here. It's a pleasure to be here. >> So, um, it what exactly does Z scaler? D'oh >> Z's killer is in the business of providing the entire security stack as a service for large enterprises. We sit in between enterprise users and the Internet and various destinations they want to goto, and we want to make sure that they have a fast, nimble Internet experience without compromising any security. >> So if I can interpret what that means, that means that as Maur companies are trying to serve their employees that Air Mobile or customers who aren't part of their corporate network they're moving more. That communication in the Cloud Z scale is making it possible for them to get the same quality of security on that communication in the cloud is he would get on premise. >> Absolutely. If you look at some of the big business transformations that are happening, work lords for enterprises are moving to the cloud. For example, enterprises are adopting Office 3 65 instead, off traditional exchange based email and on your desktop applications. They might be adopting sales force for CR M Net suite for finance box for storage. So as these workloads are moving to the cloud and employees are becoming more and more mobile, you know they might be at a coffee shop. They might be on an iPad. Um, and they might be anywhere in the world. That begs the basic security question. Where should that enterprise DMC the security stack be sitting back in the day? Enterprises had a hub and spokes model, right? They might have 50 branch offices across the world. A few mobile workers, all of them, came back over private networks to a central hub, and that hub was where racks and racks of security appliances were deployed. Maybe they started off with a firewall. Later on, they added a proxy. You are l filtering some d e l P er down the road. People realized that you need to inspect us to sell. So they added some SSL offload devices. Someone said, Hey, we need to do some sand boxing for behavioral analysis. People started adding sandboxes. And so, over time the D. M. Z got cluttered and complicated and fast forward to Today. Users have become mobile. Workloads have moved to the cloud. So if I'm sitting in a San Francisco office on my laptop trying to do my regular work, my email is in the cloud. My my court applications are sitting in the cloud. Why should I have to vpn back to my headquarters in Cincinnati over a private network, you know, incurring all the Leighton see and the delays just so that I can get inspected by some legacy appliances that are sitting in that DMC, right? So we looked at that network transformation on We started this journey at Ze scale or eight years ago, and we said, Look, if users are going to be mobile and workloads are going to be in the cloud, the entire security stack should be as close as possible to where the users are. In that example, I described, I'm sitting here. I'm going to Salesforce. We're probably going to the same data center in San Francisco. Shouldn't my entire security stag be available right where I am, um, and my administrators should have full visibility, full control from a single pane of glass. I get a fast, nimble user experience. The enterprise doesn't have to compromise in any security, and that's sort of the vision that we have executing towards. >> But it's not just for some of the newer applications or some of the newer were close. We're also seeing businesses acknowledge that the least secure member of their community has an impact on overall security. So the whole concept of even the legacy has to become increasingly a part of this broad story. So if anybody accesses anything from anywhere through the cloud that those other workloads increasing, they're gonna have to come under the scrutiny of a cloud based security option. >> Absolutely. I mean, that's a brilliant point, Peter. >> I >> think of >> it this way. Despite all those security appliances that have been deployed over time, they're still security breach is happening. And why is that? That is because users are the weakest link, right? If I'm a mobile work user, I'm sitting in a branch office. It's just painful for me to go back to those headquarter facilities just for additional scanning so two things happen either I have a painful user experience. What? I bypassed security, right? Um, and more and more of the attacks that we see leverage the user as the weakest link. I send you a phishing email. It looks like it came from HR. It has a excel sheet attached to it to update some information. But, you know, inside is lurking a macro, right? You open it. It is from a squatter domain that looks very similar to the company you work for. You click on it and your machine is infected. And then that leads to further malware being downloaded, data being expatriated out. So the Z scaler solution is very, very simple. Conceptually, we want to sit between users and the destinations they goto all across the world. And we built this network of 100 data centers. Why? Because you cannot travel faster than the speed of light. So if you're in San Francisco, you better go through our San Francisco facility. All your policies will show up here. All the latest and greatest security protections will be available. We serve 5000 large enterprises. So if we discover a new security threat because of an employee from, let's say, a General Electric. Then someone from United Airlines automatically gets protection simply because the cloud is live all the time. You're not waiting for your security boxes to get, you know, the weekly patch updates for new malware indicators and so on. Right, So, um, you get your stack right where you are. It's always up to date. User experience is not compromised. Your security administrators get a global view off things. And one >> of the >> things that that I that we haven't talked about here it is the dramatic cost savings that this sort of network transformation brings for enterprises. To put that in perspective, let's say you're a Fortune 100 organization with 100,000 employees worldwide in that, huh? Been spoke model. You are forcing all those workloads to come toe a few choke points, right? That is coming over. Very expensive. NPLs circuits private circuits from service providers. You're double trombone in traffic, back and forth. You know, you and I are in a branch. We might be on. Ah, Skype session. Ah, Google Hangout session. All our traffic goes to H Q. Goes to the cloud comeback comes back to h. Q comes back to you, there's this is too much back and forth, and you're paying for those expensive circuits and getting a poor user experience. Wouldn't it be great if you and I could go straight to the Internet? And that can only be enabled if we can provide that pervasive security stack wherever you are? And for that, we built this network of 100 data centers worldwide. Always live, always up to date you. You get routed to the closest the scaler facility. All your policy show up. They're automatically and you get the latest and greatest protection. >> So it seems as though you end up with three basic benefits. One is you get the cost benefit of being able to, uh, have being able to leverage a broader network of talent, skills and resources You reduce. Your risk is not the least of which is that the cost and the challenges configuring a whole bunch of appliances has not gotten any easier over the last. No, it hasn't cheaters. And so not only do you have user error, but you also Administrator Erin, absolutely benign, but nonetheless it's there, and then finally and this is what I want to talk about. Increasingly, the clot is acknowledged as the way that companies are going to improve their portfolio through digital assets. Absolutely. Which means new opportunities, new competition, new ways of improving customer experience. But security has become the function of no within a lot of organizations. Absolutely. So How does how does AE scaler facilitate the introduction of new business capabilities that can attack these opportunities in a much more timely way by reducing doesn't reduce some of those some of those traditional security constraints. >> Absolutely right, and we call it the Department of No right. We've talked to most people in the industry. They view their I t folks there, security forces, the department of Know Why? Because there's this big push from users to adopt newer, nimble, faster cloud based ah solutions that that improved productivity. But often I t comes in the way. No, If you look at what Izzy's killer is doing, it's trying to transform the adoption of these Cloud service. Is that do improve business productivity? In fact, there is no debate now because there are many, many industries that ever doubt adopted a cloud first strategy. Well, that means is, as they think of the network and their security, they want to make sure that cloud is front and center. Words E scaler does is it enables that cloud for a strategy without any security compromise. I'll give you some specific examples. Eight out of 10 c I ose that we talk to our thinking about office 3 65 or they have already deployed it right. One of the first challenge is that happens when you try to adopt office. 3 65 is that your legacy network and security infrastructure starts to come crumble. Very simple things happen. You have your laptop. Suddenly, that laptop has many, many persistent SSL connections to the clothes. Because exchange is moved to the cloudy directory, service is are moving to the cloud. If you have a small branch office with 2000 users, each of them having 30 40 persistent connections to the cloud will your edge firewall chokes. Why? Because it cannot maintain so many active ports at the same time, we talked about the double trombone ing of traffic back and forth. If you try to not go direct to the Internet but force everyone to go through a couple of hubs. So you pay for all the excessive band with your traditional network infrastructure, and your security infrastructure might need a forklift upgrades. So a cloud transformation project quickly becomes a network in a security transformation project. And this is where you nosy scaler helps tremendously because we were born and bred in the cloud. Many of these traditional limitations that you have with appliance based security or networking, you know, in the traditional sense don't exist for the scaler, right? We can enable your branch officers to go directly to the cloud. In fact, we've started doing some very clever things. For example, we peer with Microsoft in about 20 sites worldwide. So what that means is, when you come to the scaler for security, there's a very high likelihood that Microsoft has a presence in the same data center. We might be one or two or three millisecond hops away because we're in the same equinox facility in New York or San Jose. And so not only are you getting your full security stack where you are, you're getting the superfast peered connections to the end Cloud service is that you want to goto. You don't have to work. Worry about you know your edge Firewalls not keeping up. You don't have to worry about a massive 30 40% increase in back hole costs because you were now shipping all this extra traffic to those couple of hubs. And more importantly, you know, you've adopted these transformative technologies on your users don't have to complain about how slow they are because you know, most of the millennials hitting the workforce. I used to a very fast, nimble experience on their mobile phones with consumer APS. And then they come into the enterprise and they quickly realize that, well, this is all cumbersome and old and legacy stuff >> in me s. So let's talk a little bit about Let's talk a bit about this notion of security being everywhere and increasingly is removed to a digital business or digital orientation. With digital assets being the basis for the value proposition, which is certainly happening on a broad scale right now, it means it's security going back to the idea of security being department. No security has to move from an orientation of limiting access to appropriately sharing. Security becomes the basis for defining the digital brand. So talk to us a little bit about how the how you look out, how you see the world, that you think security's gonna be playing in ultimately defining this notion of digital brand digital perimeters from a not a iittie standpoint. But from a business value standpoint, >> absolutely. I would love to talk about that. So Izzy's killer Our cloud today sees about 30,000,000,000 transactions a day from about 5000 enterprises. So we have a very, very good pulse on what is happening in large enterprises, from from a cloud at perspective or just what users are doing on the Internet. So here are some of the things that we see. Number one. We see that about 50 60% of the threats are coming inside SSL, so it's very important to inspect SSL. The second thing that we observe is without visibility. It is very different, very difficult for your security guys to come up with a Chris policy, right? If you cannot see what is happening inside an SSL connection, how are you going to have a date? A leakage policy, right? Maybe your policy is no P I information should leak out. No source code should leak out. How can you make sure that an engineer is not dropping something in this folder, which is sinking to Google Drive or drop box in an in an SSL tano, Right. How do you prioritize mission Critical business applications like office 3 65 over streaming media, Right. So for step two, crafting good policy is 100% real time visibility. And that's what happens when you adopt the Siskel a network. You can see what any user is doing anywhere in the world within seconds. And once you have that kind of visibility, you can start formulating policies, both security and otherwise that strike a good balance between business productivity that you want to achieve without compromising security. >> That's the policy's been 10 more net. You can also end that decisions. >> Yes, right. So, for example, you can you can have a more relaxed social media policy, right? You can say Well, you know, everyone is allowed access, but they can. Maybe streaming media is restricted to one hour a day. You know, after hours, or you can say, I want to adopt um, storage applications in the clothes here are some sanctioned APS These other raps were not going to allow right. You can do policies by users, by locations by departments, right? And once you have the visibility, you can. You can be very, very precise and say, Well, boxes, my sanction story, Jap other APS are not allowed right and hear other things that a particular group of users can do on box. Or they cannot do because we were seeing every transaction between the user on going to the destination and as a result, begin, you know, we can enable the enterprise administrator to come up with very, very specific policies that are tailored for that. >> You said something really interesting. I'm gonna ask you one more question, but I'm gonna make a common here. And that common is that the power of digital technology is that it can be configured and copied and changed, and it's very mutable. It's very plastic, but at the end of the day it has to be precise, and I've never heard anybody talk about the idea of precise and security, and I think it's a very, very powerful concept. But what are what's What's the scale are talking about in our say this year. >> Well, we're going to talk about a bunch of very interesting things. First, we'll talk about the scale of private access. This is a new offering on the scale of platform. We believe that VP ends have become irrelevant because of all the discussions we just had, um, Enterprises are treating their Internet as though it was the Internet, right? You know, sort of a zero trust model. They're moving the crown jewel applications to either private cloud offerings are, you know, sort of restricting that in a very micro segmented way. And the question is, how do you access those applications? Right? And the sea skill immortal is very straightforward. You have a pervasive cloud users authenticate to the cloud and based on policies, we can allow them to go to the Internet to sites that have been sanctioned and allowed. We make sure nothing good is leaking out. Nothing bad is coming in, and that same cloud model can be leveraged for private access to crown jewel applications that traditionally would have required a full blown vpn right. And the difference between a VPN and the skill of private access is VP ends basically give you full network access keys to the kingdom, right? Whether it's a contractor with, it's an employee just so that you could access, you know, Internet application. You allow full network access, and we're just gonna getting rid of that whole notion. That's one thing we're gonna stroke ISS lots of cloud white analytics, As I mentioned, you know, we process 30,000,000,000 transactions a day. To put that in perspective, Salesforce reports about four and 1 30,000,000,000 4 1/2 to 5,000,000,000 transactions. They're about three and 1/2 1,000,000,000 Google searches done daily, right? So it is truly a tin Internet scale. We're blocking over 100,000,000 threats every day for, ah, for all our enterprise user. So we have a very good pulse on you know what's what's an average enterprise user doing? And you're going to see some interesting cloud? Wait, Analytics. Just where we talk about a one of the top prevalent Claude APs, what are the top threats? You know, by vertical buy by geography, ese? And then, you know, we as a platform has emerged. We started off as a as a sort of a proxy in the cloud, and we've added sand boxing capabilities. Firewall capabilities, you know, in our overall vision, as I said, is to be that entire security stack that sits in your inbound and outbound gateway in that DMC as a pure service. So everything from firewall at layer three to a proxy at Layer seven, everything from inline navy scanning right to full sand. Boxing everything from DLP to cloud application control. Right? And all of that is possible because, you know, we have this very scalable architecture that allows you to to do sort of single scan multiple action right in that appliance model that I describe. What ends up happening is that you have many bumps in the wire. One of the examples we use is if you wanted to build a utility company, you don't start off with small portable generators and stack them in a warehouse, right? That's inefficient. It requires individual maintenance. It doesn't scale properly. Imagine if you build a turbine and ah, and then started your utility company. You can scale better. You can do things that traditional appliance vendors cannot think about. So we build this scalable, elastic security platform, and on that platform it's very easy for us to add. You know, here's a firewall. Here's a sandbox. And what does it mean for end users? You know, you don't need to deploy new boxes. You just go and say, I want to add sand boxing capabilities or I want to add private access or I want to add DLP. And it is as simple as enabling askew, which is what a cloud service offering should be. >> Right. So we're >> hardly know software. >> So we're talking about we're talking about lower cost, less likelihood of human error, which improves the quality, security, greater plasticity and ultimately, better experience, especially for your non employees. Absolutely. All right, so we are closing up this particular moment I want Thank you very much for coming down to our Pallotta studio is part of our coverage on Peter Boris. And we've been talking to the scanner amidst, huh? Thank you very much. And back to Dio Cube.