>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Google cloud next 2018 brought to you by Google cloud and its ecosystem partners ok welcome back everyone we're live here in San Francisco this is the cubes exclusive coverage of Google clouds event next 18 Google next 18 s the hashtag we got two great guests talking about services kubernetes sto and the future of cloud aparna scene how's the group product manager of kubernetes and we have hen goldberg director of engineering of google cloud - amazing cube alumni x' really awesome guests here to break down why kubernetes why is Google cloud really doubling down on that is do a variety of other great multi cloud and on-premise activities guys welcome to the queue great to see you guys again thank you always a pleasure and again you know we love kubernetes the CN CF and we've talked many times about you know we were riffing and you know Luke who Chuck it was on Francisco who loves sto we thought service meshes are amazing you guys had a great open source presence with cube flow and a variety of other great things the open source contribution is recognized by Diane green and the whole industry as number one congratulations why is this deal so important we're seeing the big news at least for me this kind of nuances one datos available you get general availability we're supposed to be kind of after kubernetes made it but now sto is now happening faster why so what we've seen in the industry is that it only becomes too easy to create micro services or services overall but we still want to move fast so with the industry today how can you make sure that you have the right security policies how do you manage those services at scale and what if tio does really in one sense is to expand it it's decoupled the service development from the service operations so developers are free they don't need to take care of monitoring audit logging network traffic for example but instead the operation team has really sophisticated tool to manage all of that on behalf of the developers in a consistent way you know Penn and I did a session yesterday a spotlight session and it covered cloud services platform including ISTE oh we had a guest from eBay and eBay has been with Google kubernetes engine for a long time and they're also a contributor to the kubernetes open source project they talked about how they have hundreds of micro services and they're written in different languages so they're using gold Python Ruby everything under the Sun and as an operator how do you figure out how the services are communicating with each other how do you know which ones are healthy so they I asked him you know so how did you solve that complexity problem and he said boom you assist EO and I deployed this deal it deploys as just kind of like a sidecar proxy and it's auto injected so none of your developers have to do anything and then it's available in every service and it gives you so much out of the box it gives you traffic management it gives you security it gives you observability it gives you the ability to set quotas and to have SL o--'s and and that's really you know something that operators haven't had before describe SL lows for a second what is why is that important objectives so you can see an example so you can have an availability objective that this service should always always be available you know 99.9 percent of the time that's an SLO or you know the response rate needs to be have a certain type of latency so you can have a latency SLO but the key here with this deal is that as an operator previously Jeff was working Jeff from eBay he was working at the at the VM or container or network port level now he's working at the service level so he understands intelligence about the parts of the application that weren't there before and that has two things it makes him powerful right and more intelligent and secondly the developer doesn't need to worry about those things and I think one of the things for network guys out there is that it's like policy breeze policy to the equation now I want to ask course on the auto injections what's the role of the how much coding is involved in doing this zero coding how much how much developer times involved in injecting the sidecar proxies zero from a developer perspective that's not something that you need to worry about you you can focus on you know the chatbot your writing or the webpage your writing or whatever logic you're developing that's critical for your business that's gonna make you more competitive that's why you were hired as a developer right so you don't have to worry about the auto injection of sto and what we announced was really managed it's d1 gke so that's something that Google will manage for you in the future oh go ahead I want less thing about sto I think it also represented changing the transformation because before we were all about kubernetes and containers but definitely when we see the adoption the complexity is much broader so in DCP were actually introducing new solutions that are appropriate for that so easier for example works on both container eyes applications and VM based applications cloud build that we announced right it also works across applications of all types doesn't have to be only containers we introduced some tools for multi cluster management because we know all customers have multi cluster the large ones so really thinking about it how is in a holistic way we are solving those problems we've seen Google evolve its position in the enterprise clearly when we John and I first started talking to Google about cloud is like everything's going to cloud now we're seeing a lot of recognition of some of the challenges that enterprises face we heard a lot of announcements today that are resonating or going to resonate with the enterprise can you talk about the cloud services platform is that essentially your hybrid strategy is it encompass that maybe you could talk about that little bit closer services platform is a big part of our hybrid cloud strategy I mean for as a Google platform we also have networking and compute and we bridge private and public and that's a foundation but cloud services platform it comes from our heritage with open source it comes from our engagement with many large enterprises banks healthcare institutions retailers do so many of them here you know we had HSBC speaking we had target speaking we know that there are large portions of enterprise IT that are going to remain on premise that have to remain on premise because you know they're in a branch office or they have some sort of regulatory compliance or you know that's just where their developers are and they want to have a local environment so so we're very very sensitive and and knowledgeable about that and that's why we introduced cloud services platform as Google's technology in your environment on Prem so you can modernize where you are at your own pace so some of the things we heard today in the keynote we heard support for Oracle RAC and Exadata and sa P that's obviously traditional enterprises partnership with NetApp cloud armor shielded VMs these are all you know traditional enterprise things what enterprise grade features should we be looking for from cloud services platform so the first one which I actually love the most is the G key policy management one of the things we've heard from our customers they say okay portability is great consistency great but we want security portability right they now have those all of those environment how can they ensure that they're combined with the gtp are in all of their environments how they manage tenants in all of their environments in the same way and G key policy measurement is exactly that okay we're allowing customers to apply the same policy while not locking them in okay we're fully compatible with the kubernetes approach and the primitives of our bug enrolls but it is also aligned with G CPI M so you can actually manage it once and apply it to all your environment including clusters kubernetes cluster everywhere you have so I expect we'll have more and more effort in this area I'm making sure that everything is secured and consistent auto-scaling is that enterprise greed auto-scaling yes yes I mean auto-scaling is a inherent part of kubernetes so kubernetes scales your pods automatically that's a very mature I mean it's been stable for more than a year or probably two years and it's used everywhere so auto skip on auto scaling is something that's used and everywhere the thing about gke is that we also do cluster auto scaling cluster auto scaling is actually harder and we not only do it for CPU as we do it for GPUs which is innovative you know so we can scale an auto scale and auto implements Auto provision your GPUs if you machine learning we're gonna bring that on-prem - it's not in the first version but that's something that with the approach that we've taken to GK on Prem we're gonna be adding those kinds of capabilities that gonna be the go on parameters it's just an extension just got to get the job done or what time frame we look API that we've built it's a downward API that works with some sort of hardware clustering technology right now it's working with vSphere right and so it basically if you're under an underlying technology has that capability we will auto scale the cluster in the future you know I got to say you guys are like the dynamic duo of kubernetes seen you in the shows you had Linux Foundation events talk about the relationship between you guys you have an engineering your product management how were you guys organizer you're moving fast I mean just the progress since we've been interviewing you to CN CF segoe all just been significant since we started talking on the cube you see in kubernetes obviously you guys have some inside knowledge of that but it's really moving fast how is the team organized what's the magic internal formula that you guys are engineering and you guys are working as a team I've seen you guys opens is it just open stores is the internal talk about some of the dynamics we're working as one team one thing I love mostly about the Google culture is about doing the right thing for the user like the announcements you've seen yesterday on the on the keynote there are many many teams and I've been working together you know to get that done but you cannot see that right you don't see that there are so many different teams and different product managers and different engineering managers all working together but well I I think where we are right now I know is that really Google is backing up kubernetes and you can see it everywhere right you can see with ours our announcement about key native yeah for example so the idea of portability the idea of no lock-in is really important for us the idea of open cloud freedom of choice so because we're all aligned to that direction and we all agree about the principles is actually super easy to the she's very modest you know this type of thing doesn't just happen by itself right I mean of course google has a wonderful culture and we have a great team but I you know I really enjoy working with hen and she is an amazing leader she is the leader of the engineering team she also brings together these other teams you know every large company has many teams and the announcement at the scale that we made it and the vision that you see the cohesiveness of it right it comes from collaboration it comes from thinking as a team and you know the management and leadership depend has brought to the kubernetes project and to kubernetes and gke and cloud services platform is phenomenal it's an inspiration I really enjoy the progress congratulate and it's been great progress so I hear a lot of customers talk about things like hey you know they evaluate vendors you know those guys have done the work and it's kind of a categorical way of saying it's complete they're working hard they're doing the right things as you guys continue this mission what's some of the work that you're continuing to what's the work that you guys are doing the work we see some of that evidence if it does ascribe to someone says hey have you done the work to earn the cred in the crowd cloud what would it be how would you describe the work that you've done and the work that you're doing and continue to do what does that work what would you say that I mean I hope that we have done the work to you know to earn the credit I think we're very very conscientious you know in the kubernetes open source project I can say we have 300 plus contributors we are working not just on the future functionality but we work on the testing and the we work on the QA we work on all the documentation stuff we work on all the nitty-gritty details so I think that's where we earn the credit on the open source side I think in cloud and in Enterprise do well you're seeing a lot of it here today you know the announcements that you mentioned we're very very cognizant and I think the thing I like about one of the things that Diane said I liked very much as I think the industry underestimates us well when you talk about well we look at the kubernetes if I can call it a playbook it took the world by storm obviously solving some of your own problems you open source it develop the community should we think about it Co the same it's still the same way are you going to use that sort of similar approach it seems to be working yes doing open source is not easy okay managing and investing and building something like kubernetes requires a lot of effort by the way not just from Google we have a lot of people that working full time just on kubernetes the way we look at that we we look about the thing that we have valued the most like portability for example if there is anything that you would like to make a standard like with K native those are kind of thing that we really want to bring to the industry as open source technologies because we want to make sure that they will work for customers everywhere right we need we need to be genuine and really stand behind what we were saying to our customers so this is the way we look at things again another example you can see about Q flow right so we actually have a lot of examples or we want to make sure that we give those options so that's one it's one is for the customer the second thing I want actually the emphasize is the ecosystem and partners yeah we know that innovation not a lot of innovation will come from Google and we want to make sure that we empower our powders and the ecosystem to build new solutions and is again another way to do it yes I mean because we're talking before we came on camera about the importance of ecosystems Dave and I have covered many industries within you know enterprise and now cloud and big data and I see blockchain on the horizon another part of our coverage area ecosystems are super important when you have openness and you have inclusion inclusion Airy culture around building together and co-creation this is the ethos of open source but people need to make money right so at the end of the day we're you guys are not you're not a non-profit you know it's gonna make profit so instead of the partners so as the world turns to cloud there's going to be new value opportunities how do you guys view that ecosystem because is it yeah is it more educational is it more just keep up a lot of people want to be on the right side of history with cloud and begin a lot of things are changing how do you guys view that ecosystem in terms of nurturing it identifying it working with it building it sharing what's your thoughts sure you know I I believe that new technology comes with lots of opportunity we've seen this with kubernetes and I think going forward we see it it's not a zero-sum game you know there's a huge ecosystem that's grown up around kubernetes and now we see actually around sto a huge ecosystem as well the types of opportunities in the value chain I think that it changes it's not what it used to be right it's not so much I think taking care of hardware racking and stacking hardware it's higher level when we talked about SEO and how that raises the level of management I think there's a huge role for operators it's a transformative role you know and we've seen it at Google we have this thing called site reliability engineering sre it's a big thing like those people are God you know when it comes to your services I think that's gonna happen in the enterprise that's gonna be a real role that's an Operations role and then of course developers their life changes and I think even like for regular people you know for kids for you and I and normal people they can become developers and start writing applications so I think there's a huge shift that's a huge thing you're touching on a lot of areas of IT transformation you know talking about the operations piece we've touched upon some of the application development how do you guys look at IT transformation and what are some of your customers doing IT transformation is enabled by you know this raising of the level of abstraction by having a multi cluster multi cloud environment what I see in in the customer base is that they don't want to be limited to one type of cloud they don't want to be limited to just what's on Prem or just what's in one you know in any one cloud they want to be able to consume best-of-breed they want to be able to take what they have and modernize it even if it's even if they can't completely rewrite or even if they can't completely transform it they want to be able they wanted to be able to participate so they even they want their mainframes to be able to participate but yeah I had one customers say you know I I don't want to have two platforms a slow platform and a fast platform I want just a fast platform know about the future now as we end the segment here I want to get your thoughts we're gonna see CN CF s coming up to Seattle in a couple months and also his ST O's got great traction with I'll see with the support and and general availability but what's the impact of the customers because gke Google Cabernets engine is evolving to be the single in her face it's almost as ease of use because that's a real part of what you guys are trying to do is make it easy the abstraction layer is gonna create new business models obviously we see that with the transformation fee she were just mentioning the end of the day I got to operate something I'm a network guy I'm now gonna might be a operating the entire environment I'm gonna enable my developers to be modern fast or whatever they want to be in the day you got to run things got to manage it so what does gke turn into what's the vision can you share your thoughts on on how this transforms and what's the trajectory look like so our goal is actually to help automate that for our customers so they can focus elsewhere as we said from the operations perspective making things more reliable defining the SLO understanding what kind of service they want to provide their customers and our hope you know you can again you can see in other things that we are building like Auto ml okay actually giving more tools to provide those capabilities to the application I think that's really see more and more so the operators will manage services and they will do it across clusters and across environments this is this is a new skill set you know it's the sre skill set but but even bigger because it's not just in one cloud it's across clouds yeah it's not easy they're gonna do it with centralized policy centralized control security compliance all of that so you see us re which is site reliability engineers at Google term but you see that being a role in enterprises and it's also knowing what services to use when what's going to be the most cost effective the right service for the right job that's really an important point I agree I think yeah I think security I think cost perspective was something definitely that will see enterprises investing more in and understanding and how they can leverage that right for their own benefit the admin the operator is gonna say okay I've got this on Prem I've got these three different regions I have to be that traffic coordinator to figure out who can talk to who where should this traffic go there's who should have how much quota all of that right that's the operator role that's the new roles so it's a it's an opportunity for operations people who might have spent their lives managing lawns to really transform their careers yes there's no better time to be an operator I mean you can I want to be an operator and I can't tell you how my dear sorry impacts our team like the engineering team how much they bring the focus on customer the service we are giving to our customers thinking about our services in different ways I think that actually is super important for any engineering team to have that balance okay final questions just put you on the spot real quick answer great stuff congratulations on the work you guys are doing great to follow the progress but I'm a customer I'll put my customer hat on par in ahead I can get that on Amazon Microsoft's got kubernetes why Google cloud what makes Google cloud different if kubernetes is open why should I use Google Cloud so you're right and the wonderful thing is that Google is actually all in kubernetes and we are the first public cloud that actually providing a managed kubernetes on-prem well the first cloud provider to have a GCP marketplace with a kubernetes application production-ready with our partners so if you're all in kubernetes I would say that it's obvious yeah III see most of the customers wanting to be multi cloud and to have choice and that is something that you know is very aligned with what we're look at this crowd win open source is winning great to have you on a part of hend thanks for coming on dynamic duo and kubernetes is - a lot of new services are happening we're bringing all those services here in the cube it's our content here from Google cloud Google next I'm Jennifer and David Lonnie we'll be right back stay with us for more day two coverage after this short break thank you