>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering. Next work. 2019 America's Do You buy Juniper Networks? Come back already. Jeffrey here with the Cube were in Las Vegas at Caesar's at the Juniper. Next work event. About 1000 people kind of going over a lot of new cool things. 400 gigs. Who knew that was coming out of new information for me? But that's not what we're here today. We're here for the fourth installment of around the Cube unpacking. I were happy to have all the winners of the three previous rounds here at the same place. We don't have to do it over the phone s so we're happy to have him. Let's jump into it. So winner of Round one was Bob Friday. He is the VP and CTO at Missed the Juniper Company. Bob, Great to see you. Good to be back. Absolutely. All the way from Seattle. Sharna Parky. She's a VP applied scientist at Tech CEO could see Sharna and, uh, from Google. We know a lot of a I happen to Google. Rajan's chef. He is the V p ay ay >>product management on Google. Welcome. Thank you, Christy. Here >>All right, so let's jump into it. So just warm everybody up and we'll start with you. Bob, What are some When you're talking to someone at a cocktail party Friday night talking to your mom And they say, What is a I What >>do you >>give him? A Zen examples of where a eyes of packing our lives today? >>Well, I think we all know the examples of the south driving car, you know? Aye, aye. Starting to help our health care industry being diagnosed cancer for me. Personally, I had kind of a weird experience last week at a retail technology event where basically had these new digital mirrors doing facial recognition. Right? And basically, you start to have little mirrors were gonna be a skeevy start guessing. Hey, you have a beard, you have some glasses, and they start calling >>me old. So this is kind >>of very personal. I have a something for >>you, Camille, but eh? I go walking >>down a mall with a bunch of mirrors, calling me old. >>That's a little Illinois. Did it bring you out like a cane or a walker? You know, you start getting some advertising's >>that were like Okay, you guys, this is a little bit over the top. >>Alright, Charlotte, what about you? What's your favorite example? Share with people? >>Yeah, E think one of my favorite examples of a I is, um, kind of accessible in on your phone where the photos you take on an iPhone. The photos you put in Google photos, they're automatically detecting the faces and their labeling them for you. They're like, Here's selfies. Here's your family. Here's your Children. And you know, that's the most successful one of the ones that I think people don't really think about a lot or things like getting loan applications right. We actually have a I deciding whether or not we get loans. And that one is is probably the most interesting one to be right now. >>Roger. So I think the father's example is probably my favorite as well. And what's interesting to me is that really a I is actually not about the Yeah, it's about the user experience that you can create as a result of a I. What's cool about Google photos is that and my entire family uses Google photos and they don't even know actually that the underlying in some of the most powerful a I in the world. But what they know is they confined every picture of our kids on the beach whenever they whenever they want to. Or, you know, we had a great example where we were with our kids. Every time they like something in the store, we take a picture of it, Um, and we can look up toy and actually find everything that they've taken picture. >>It's interesting because I think most people don't even know the power that they have. Because if you search for beach in your Google photos or you search for, uh, I was looking for an old bug picture from my high school there it came right up until you kind of explore. You know, it's pretty tricky, Raja, you know, I think a lot of conversation about A They always focus the general purpose general purpose, general purpose machines and robots and computers. But people don't really talk about the applied A that's happening all around. Why do you think that? >>So it's a good question. There's there's a lot more talk about kind of general purpose, but the reality of where this has an impact right now is, though, are those specific use cases. And so, for example, things like personalizing customer interaction or, ah, spotting trends that did that you wouldn't have spotted for turning unstructured data like documents into structure data. That's where a eyes actually having an impact right now. And I think it really boils down to getting to the right use cases where a I right? >>Sharon, I want ask you. You know, there's a lot of conversation. Always has A I replace people or is it an augmentation for people? And we had Gary Kasparov on a couple years ago, and he talked about, you know, it was the combination if he plus the computer made the best chess player, but that quickly went away. Now the computer is actually better than Garry Kasparov. Plus the computer. How should people think about a I as an augmentation tool versus a replacement tool? And is it just gonna be specific to the application? And how do you kind of think about those? >>Yeah, I would say >>that any application where you're making life and death decisions where you're making financial decisions that disadvantage people anything where you know you've got u A. V s and you're deciding whether or not to actually dropped the bomb like you need a human in the loop. If you're trying to change the words that you are using to get a different group of people to apply for jobs, you need a human in the loop because it turns out that for the example of beach, you type sheep into your phone and you might get just a field, a green field and a I doesn't know that, uh, you know, if it's always seen sheep in a field that when the sheep aren't there, that that isn't a sheep like it doesn't have that kind of recognition to it. So anything were we making decisions about parole or financial? Anything like that needs to have human in the loop because those types of decisions are changing fundamentally the way we live. >>Great. So shift gears. The team are Jeff Saunders. Okay, team, your mind may have been the liquid on my bell, so I'll be more active on the bell. Sorry about that. Everyone's even. We're starting a zero again, so I want to shift gears and talk about data sets. Um Bob, you're up on stage. Demo ing some some of your technology, the Miss Technology and really, you know, it's interesting combination of data sets A I and its current form needs a lot of data again. Kind of the classic Chihuahua on blue buried and photos. You got to run a lot of them through. How do you think about data sets? In terms of having the right data in a complete data set to drive an algorithm >>E. I think we all know data sets with one The tipping points for a I to become more real right along with cloud computing storage. But data is really one of the key points of making a I really write my example on stage was wine, right? Great wine starts a great grape street. Aye, aye. Starts a great data for us personally. L s t M is an example in our networking space where we have data for the last three months from our customers and rule using the last 30 days really trained these l s t m algorithms to really get that tsunami detection the point where we don't have false positives. >>How much of the training is done. Once you once you've gone through the data a couple times in a just versus when you first started, you're not really sure how it's gonna shake out in the algorithm. >>Yeah. So in our case right now, right, training happens every night. So every night, we're basically retraining those models, basically, to be able to predict if there's gonna be an anomaly or network, you know? And this is really an example. Where you looking all these other cat image thinks this is where these neural networks there really were one of the transformational things that really moved a I into the reality calling. And it's starting to impact all our different energy. Whether it's text imaging in the networking world is an example where even a I and deep learnings ruling starting to impact our networking customers. >>Sure, I want to go to you. What do you do if you don't have a big data set? You don't have a lot of pictures of chihuahuas and blackberries, and I want to apply some machine intelligence to the problem. >>I mean, so you need to have the right data set. You know, Big is a relative term on, and it depends on what you're using it for, right? So you can have a massive amount of data that represents solar flares, and then you're trying to detect some anomaly, right? If you train and I what normal is based upon a massive amount of data and you don't have enough examples of that anomaly you're trying to detect, then it's never going to say there's an anomaly there, so you actually need to over sample. You have to create a population of data that allows you to detect images you can't say, Um oh, >>I'm going to reflect in my data set the percentage of black women >>in Seattle, which is something below 6% and say it's fair. It's not right. You have to be able thio over sample things that you need, and in some ways you can get this through surveys. You can get it through, um, actually going to different sources. But you have to boot, strap it in some way, and then you have to refresh it, because if you leave that data set static like Bob mentioned like you, people are changing the way they do attacks and networks all the time, and so you may have been able to find the one yesterday. But today it's a completely different ball game >>project to you, which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You start with the data, and I say this is a ripe opportunity to apply some. Aye, aye. Or do you have some May I objectives that you want to achieve? And I got to go out and find the >>data. So I actually think what starts where it starts is the business problem you're trying to solve. And then from there, you need to have the right data. What's interesting about this is that you can actually have starting points. And so, for example, there's techniques around transfer, learning where you're able to take an an algorithm that's already been trained on a bunch of data and training a little bit further with with your data on DSO, we've seen that such that people that may have, for example, only 100 images of something, but they could use a model that's trained on millions of images and only use those 100 thio create something that's actually quite accurate. >>So that's a great segue. Wait, give me a ring on now. And it's a great Segway into talking about applying on one algorithm that was built around one data set and then applying it to a different data set. Is that appropriate? Is that correct? Is air you risking all kinds of interesting problems by taking that and applying it here, especially in light of when people are gonna go to outweigh the marketplace, is because I've got a date. A scientist. I couldn't go get one in the marketplace and apply to my data. How should people be careful not to make >>a bad decision based on that? So I think it really depends. And it depends on the type of machine learning that you're doing and what type of data you're talking about. So, for example, with images, they're they're they're well known techniques to be able to do this, but with other things, there aren't really and so it really depends. But then the other inter, the other really important thing is that no matter what at the end, you need to test and generate based on your based on your data sets and on based on sample data to see if it's accurate or not, and then that's gonna guide everything. Ultimately, >>Sharon has got to go to you. You brought up something in the preliminary rounds and about open A I and kind of this. We can't have this black box where stuff goes into the algorithm. That stuff comes out and we're not sure what the result was. Sounds really important. Is that Is that even plausible? Is it feasible? This is crazy statistics, Crazy math. You talked about the business objective that someone's trying to achieve. I go to the data scientist. Here's my data. You're telling this is the output. How kind of where's the line between the Lehman and the business person and the hard core data science to bring together the knowledge of Here's what's making the algorithm say this. >>Yeah, there's a lot of names for this, whether it's explainable. Aye, aye. Or interpret a belay. I are opening the black box. Things like that. Um, the algorithms that you use determine whether or not they're inspect herbal. Um, and the deeper your neural network gets, the harder it is to inspect, actually. Right. So, to your point, every time you take an aye aye and you use it in a different scenario than what it was built for. For example, um, there is a police precinct in New York that had a facial recognition software, and, uh, victim said, Oh, it looked like this actor. This person looked like Bill Cosby or something like that, and you were never supposed to take an image of an actor and put it in there to find people that look like them. But that's how people were using it. So the Russians point yes, like it. You can transfer learning to other a eyes, but it's actually the humans that are using it in ways that are unintended that we have to be more careful about, right? Um, even if you're a, I is explainable, and somebody tries to use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. The risk is much higher >>now. I think maybe I had, You know, if you look at Marvis kind of what we're building for the networking community Ah, good examples. When Marvis tries to do estimate your throughput right, your Internet throughput. That's what we usually call decision tree algorithm. And that's a very interpretive algorithm. and we predict low throughput. We know how we got to that answer, right? We know what features God, is there? No. But when we're doing something like a NAMI detection, that's a neural network. That black box it tells us yes, there's a problem. There's some anomaly, but that doesn't know what caused the anomaly. But that's a case where we actually used neural networks, actually find the anomie, and then we're using something else to find the root cause, eh? So it really depends on the use case and where the night you're going to use an interpreter of model or a neural network which is more of a black box model. T tell her you've got a cat or you've got a problem >>somewhere. So, Bob, that's really interested. So can you not unpacking? Neural network is just the nature of the way that the communication and the data flows and the inferences are made that you can't go in and unpack it, that you have to have the >>separate kind of process too. Get to the root cause. >>Yeah, assigned is always hard to say. Never. But inherently s neural networks are very complicated. Saito set of weights, right? It's basically usually a supervised training model, and we're feeding a bunch of data and trying to train it to detect a certain features, sir, an output. But that is where they're powerful, right? And that's why they basically doing such good, Because they are mimicking the brain, right? That neural network is a very complex thing. Can't like your brain, right? We really don't understand how your brain works right now when you have a problem, it's really trialling there. We try to figure out >>right going right. So I want to stay with you, bought for a minute. So what about when you change what you're optimizing? Four? So you just said you're optimizing for throughput of the network. You're looking for problems. Now, let's just say it's, uh, into the end of the quarter. Some other reason we're not. You're changing your changing what you're optimizing for, Can you? You have to write separate algorithm. Can you have dynamic movement inside that algorithm? How do you approach a problem? Because you're not always optimizing for the same things, depending on the market conditions. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a good example, you know, again, with Marvis is really with what we call reinforcement. Learning right in reinforcement. Learning is a model we use for, like, radio resource management. And there were really trying to optimize for the user experience in trying to balance the reward, the models trying to reward whether or not we have a good balance between the network and the user. Right, that reward could be changed. So that algorithm is basically reinforcement. You can finally change hell that Algren works by changing the reward you give the algorithm >>great. Um, Rajan back to you. A couple of huge things that have come into into play in the marketplace and get your take one is open source, you know, kind of. What's the impact of open source generally on the availability, desire and more applications and then to cloud and soon to be edge? You know, the current next stop. How do you guys incorporate that opportunity? How does it change what you can do? How does it open up the lens of >>a I Yeah, I think open source is really important because I think one thing that's interesting about a I is that it's a very nascent field and the more that there's open source, the more that people could build on top of each other and be able to utilize what what others others have done. And it's similar to how we've seen open source impact operating systems, the Internet, things like things like that with Cloud. I think one of the big things with cloud is now you have the processing power and the ability to access lots of data to be able to t create these thes networks. And so the capacity for data and the capacity for compute is much higher. Edge is gonna be a very important thing, especially going into next few years. You're seeing Maur things incorporated on the edge and one exciting development is around Federated learning where you can train on the edge and then combine some of those aspects into a cloud side model. And so that I think will actually make EJ even more powerful. >>But it's got to be so dynamic, right? Because the fundamental problem used to always be the move, the computer, the data or the date of the computer. Well, now you've got on these edge devices. You've got Tanya data right sensor data all kinds of machining data. You've got potentially nasty hostile conditions. You're not in a nice, pristine data center where the environmental conditions are in the connective ity issues. So when you think about that problem yet, there's still great information. There you got latent issues. Some I might have to be processed close to home. How do you incorporate that age old thing of the speed of light to still break the break up? The problem to give you a step up? Well, we see a lot >>of customers do is they do a lot of training on the cloud, but then inference on the on the edge. And so that way they're able to create the model that they want. But then they get fast response time by moving the model to the edge. The other thing is that, like you said, lots of data is coming into the edge. So one way to do it is to efficiently move that to the cloud. But the other way to do is filter. And to try to figure out what data you want to send to the clouds that you can create the next days. >>Shawna, back to you let's shift gears into ethics. This pesky, pesky issue that's not not a technological issue at all, but right. We see it often, especially in tech. Just cause you should just cause you can doesn't mean that you should. Um so and this is not a stem issue, right? There's a lot of different things that happened. So how should people be thinking about ethics? How should they incorporate ethics? Um, how should they make sure that they've got kind of a, you know, a standard kind of overlooking kind of what they're doing? The decisions are being made. >>Yeah, One of the more approachable ways that I have found to explain this is with behavioral science methodologies. So ethics is a massive field of study, and not everyone shares the same ethics. However, if you try and bring it closer to behavior change because every product that we're building is seeking to change of behavior. We need to ask questions like, What is the gap between the person's intention and the goal we have for them? Would they choose that goal for themselves or not? If they wouldn't, then you have an ethical problem, right? And this this can be true of the intention, goal gap or the intention action up. We can see when we regulated for cigarettes. What? We can't just make it look cool without telling them what the cigarettes are doing to them, right so we can apply the same principles moving forward. And they're pretty accessible without having to know. Oh, this philosopher and that philosopher in this ethicist said these things, it can be pretty human. The challenge with this is that most people building these algorithms are not. They're not trained in this way of thinking, and especially when you're working at a start up right, you don't have access to massive teams of people to guide you down this journey, so you need to build it in from the beginning, and you need to be open and based upon principles. Um, and it's going to touch every component. It should touch your data, your algorithm, the people that you're using to build the product. If you only have white men building the product, you have a problem you need to pull in other people. Otherwise, there are just blind spots that you are not going to think of in order to still that product for a wider audience, but it seems like >>they were on such a razor sharp edge. Right with Coca Cola wants you to buy Coca Cola and they show ads for Coca Cola, and they appeal to your let's all sing together on the hillside and be one right. But it feels like with a I that that is now you can cheat. Right now you can use behavioral biases that are hardwired into my brain is a biological creature against me. And so where is where is the fine line between just trying to get you to buy Coke? Which somewhat argues Probably Justus Bad is Jule cause you get diabetes and all these other issues, but that's acceptable. But cigarettes are not. And now we're seeing this stuff on Facebook with, you know, they're coming out. So >>we know that this is that and Coke isn't just selling Coke anymore. They're also selling vitamin water so they're they're play isn't to have a single product that you can purchase, but it is to have a suite of products that if you weren't that coke, you can buy it. But if you want that vitamin water you can have that >>shouldn't get vitamin water and a smile that only comes with the coat. Five. You want to jump in? >>I think we're going to see ethics really break into two different discussions, right? I mean, ethics is already, like human behavior that you're already doing right, doing bad behavior, like discriminatory hiring, training, that behavior. And today I is gonna be wrong. It's wrong in the human world is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the other component to this ethics discussion is really round privacy and data. It's like that mirror example, right? No. Who gave that mirror the right to basically tell me I'm old and actually do something with that data right now. Is that my data? Or is that the mirrors data that basically recognized me and basically did something with it? Right. You know, that's the Facebook. For example. When I get the email, tell me, look at that picture and someone's take me in the pictures Like, where was that? Where did that come from? Right? >>What? I'm curious about to fall upon that as social norms change. We talked about it a little bit for we turn the cameras on, right? It used to be okay. Toe have no black people drinking out of a fountain or coming in the side door of a restaurant. Not that long ago, right in the 60. So if someone had built an algorithm, then that would have incorporated probably that social norm. But social norms change. So how should we, you know, kind of try to stay ahead of that or at least go back reflectively after the fact and say kind of back to the black box, That's no longer acceptable. We need to tweak this. I >>would have said in that example, that was wrong. 50 years ago. >>Okay, it was wrong. But if you ask somebody in Alabama, you know, at the University of Alabama, Matt Department who have been born Red born, bred in that culture as well, they probably would have not necessarily agreed. But so generally, though, again, assuming things change, how should we make sure to go back and make sure that we're not again carrying four things that are no longer the right thing to do? >>Well, I think I mean, as I said, I think you know what? What we know is wrong, you know is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the more subtle thing is when we start relying on these Aye. Aye. To make decisions like no shit in my car, hit the pedestrian or save my life. You know, those are tough decisions to let a machine take off or your balls decision. Right when we start letting the machines Or is it okay for Marvis to give this D I ps preference over other people, right? You know, those type of decisions are kind of the ethical decision, you know, whether right or wrong, the human world, I think the same thing will apply in the eye world. I do think it will start to see more regulation. Just like we see regulation happen in our hiring. No, that regulation is going to be applied into our A I >>right solutions. We're gonna come back to regulation a minute. But, Roger, I want to follow up with you in your earlier session. You you made an interesting comment. You said, you know, 10% is clearly, you know, good. 10% is clearly bad, but it's a soft, squishy middle at 80% that aren't necessarily super clear, good or bad. So how should people, you know, kind of make judgments in this this big gray area in the middle? >>Yeah, and I think that is the toughest part. And so the approach that we've taken is to set us set out a set of AI ai principles on DDE. What we did is actually wrote down seven things that we will that we think I should do and four things that we should not do that we will not do. And we now have to actually look at everything that we're doing against those Aye aye principles. And so part of that is coming up with that governance process because ultimately it boils down to doing this over and over, seeing lots of cases and figuring out what what you should do and so that governments process is something we're doing. But I think it's something that every company is going to need to do. >>Sharon, I want to come back to you, so we'll shift gears to talk a little bit about about law. We've all seen Zuckerberg, unfortunately for him has been, you know, stuck in these congressional hearings over and over and over again. A little bit of a deer in a headlight. You made an interesting comment on your prior show that he's almost like he's asking for regulation. You know, he stumbled into some really big Harry nasty areas that were never necessarily intended when they launched Facebook out of his dorm room many, many moons ago. So what is the role of the law? Because the other thing that we've seen, unfortunately, a lot of those hearings is a lot of our elected officials are way, way, way behind there, still printing their e mails, right? So what is the role of the law? How should we think about it? What shall we What should we invite from fromthe law to help sort some of this stuff out? >>I think as an individual, right, I would like for each company not to make up their own set of principles. I would like to have a shared set of principles that were following the challenge. Right, is that with between governments, that's impossible. China is never gonna come up with same regulations that we will. They have a different privacy standards than we D'oh. Um, but we are seeing locally like the state of Washington has created a future of work task force. And they're coming into the private sector and asking companies like text you and like Google and Microsoft to actually advise them on what should we be regulating? We don't know. We're not the technologists, but they know how to regulate. And they know how to move policies through the government. What will find us if we don't advise regulators on what we should be regulating? They're going to regulate it in some way, just like they regulated the tobacco industry. Just like they regulated. Sort of, um, monopolies that tech is big enough. Now there is enough money in it now that it will be regularly. So we need to start advising them on what we should regulate because just like Mark, he said. While everyone else was doing it, my competitors were doing it. So if you >>don't want me to do it, make us all stop. What >>can I do? A negative bell and that would not for you, but for Mark's responsibly. That's crazy. So So bob old man at the mall. It's actually a little bit more codified right, There's GDP are which came through May of last year and now the newness to California Extra Gatorade, California Consumer Protection Act, which goes into effect January 1. And you know it's interesting is that the hardest part of the implementation of that I think I haven't implemented it is the right to be for gotten because, as we all know, computers, air, really good recording information and cloud. It's recorded everywhere. There's no there there. So when these types of regulations, how does that impact? Aye, aye, because if I've got an algorithm built on a data set in in person, you know, item number 472 decides they want to be forgotten How that too I deal with that. >>Well, I mean, I think with Facebook, I can see that as I think. I suspect Mark knows what's right and wrong. He's just kicking ball down tires like >>I want you guys. >>It's your problem, you know. Please tell me what to do. I see a ice kind of like any other new technology, you know, it could be abused and used in the wrong waste. I think legally we have a constitution that protects our rights. And I think we're going to see the lawyers treat a I just like any other constitutional things and people who are building products using a I just like me build medical products or other products and actually harmful people. You're gonna have to make sure that you're a I product does not harm people. You're a product does not include no promote discriminatory results. So I >>think we're going >>to see our constitutional thing is going applied A I just like we've seen other technologies work. >>And it's gonna create jobs because of that, right? Because >>it will be a whole new set of lawyers >>the holdings of lawyers and testers, even because otherwise of an individual company is saying. But we tested. It >>works. Trust us. Like, how are you gonna get the independent third party verification of that? So we're gonna start to see a whole terrorist proliferation of that type of fields that never had to exist before. >>Yeah, one of my favorite doctor room. A child. Grief from a center. If you don't follow her on Twitter Follower. She's fantastic and a great lady. So I want to stick with you for a minute, Bob, because the next topic is autonomous. And Rahman up on the keynote this morning, talked about missed and and really, this kind of shifting workload of fixing things into an autonomous set up where the system now is, is finding problems, diagnosing problems, fixing problems up to, I think, he said, even generating return authorizations for broken gear, which is amazing. But autonomy opens up all kinds of crazy, scary things. Robert Gates, we interviewed said, You know, the only guns that are that are autonomous in the entire U. S. Military are the ones on the border of North Korea. Every single other one has to run through a person when you think about autonomy and when you can actually grant this this a I the autonomy of the agency toe act. What are some of the things to think about in the word of the things to keep from just doing something bad, really, really fast and efficiently? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we discussed, right? I mean, I think Pakal purposes we're far, you know, there is a tipping point. I think eventually we will get to the CP 30 Terminator day where we actually build something is on par with the human. But for the purposes right now, we're really looking at tools that we're going to help businesses, doctors, self driving cars and those tools are gonna be used by our customers to basically allow them to do more productive things with their time. You know, whether it's doctor that's using a tool to actually use a I to predict help bank better predictions. They're still gonna be a human involved, you know, And what Romney talked about this morning and networking is really allowing our I T customers focus more on their business problems where they don't have to spend their time finding bad hard were bad software and making better experiences for the people. They're actually trying to serve >>right, trying to get your take on on autonomy because because it's a different level of trust that we're giving to the machine when we actually let it do things based on its own. But >>there's there's a lot that goes into this decision of whether or not to allow autonomy. There's an example I read. There's a book that just came out. Oh, what's the title? You look like a thing. And I love you. It was a book named by an A I, um if you want to learn a lot about a I, um and you don't know much about it, Get it? It's really funny. Um, so in there there is in China. Ah, factory where the Aye Aye. Is optimizing um, output of cockroaches now they just They want more cockroaches now. Why do they want that? They want to grind them up and put them in a lotion. It's one of their secret ingredients now. It depends on what parameters you allow that I to change, right? If you decide Thio let the way I flood the container, and then the cockroaches get out through the vents and then they get to the kitchen to get food, and then they reproduce the parameters in which you let them be autonomous. Over is the challenge. So when we're working with very narrow Ai ai, when use hell the Aye. Aye. You can change these three things and you can't just change anything. Then it's a lot easier to make that autonomous decision. Um and then the last part of it is that you want to know what is the results of a negative outcome, right? There was the result of a positive outcome. And are those results something that we can take actually? >>Right, Right. Roger, don't give you the last word on the time. Because kind of the next order of step is where that machines actually write their own algorithms, right? They start to write their own code, so they kind of take this next order of thought and agency, if you will. How do you guys think about that? You guys are way out ahead in the space, you have huge data set. You got great technology. Got tensorflow. When will the machines start writing their own A their own out rhythms? Well, and actually >>it's already starting there that, you know, for example, we have we have a product called Google Cloud. Ottawa. Mel Village basically takes in a data set, and then we find the best model to be able to match that data set. And so things like that that that are there already, but it's still very nascent. There's a lot more than that that can happen. And I think ultimately with with how it's used I think part of it is you have to start. Always look at the downside of automation. And what is what is the downside of a bad decision, whether it's the wrong algorithm that you create or a bad decision in that model? And so if the downside is really big, that's where you need to start to apply Human in the loop. And so, for example, in medicine. Hey, I could do amazing things to detect diseases, but you would want a doctor in the loop to be able to actually diagnose. And so you need tohave have that place in many situations to make sure that it's being applied well. >>But is that just today? Or is that tomorrow? Because, you know, with with exponential growth and and as fast as these things are growing, will there be a day where you don't necessarily need maybe need the doctor to communicate the news? Maybe there's some second order impacts in terms of how you deal with the family and, you know, kind of pros and cons of treatment options that are more emotional than necessarily mechanical, because it seems like eventually that the doctor has a role. But it isn't necessarily in accurately diagnosing a problem. >>I think >>I think for some things, absolutely over time the algorithms will get better and better, and you can rely on them and trust them more and more. But again, I think you have to look at the downside consequence that if there's a bad decision, what happens and how is that compared to what happens today? And so that's really where, where that is. So, for example, self driving cars, we will get to the point where cars are driving by themselves. There will be accidents, but the accident rate is gonna be much lower than what's there with humans today, and so that will get there. But it will take time. >>And there was a day when will be illegal for you to drive. You have manslaughter, right? >>I I believe absolutely there will be in and and I don't think it's that far off. Actually, >>wait for the day when I have my car take me up to Northern California with me. Sleepy. I've only lived that long. >>That's right. And work while you're while you're sleeping, right? Well, I want to thank everybody Aton for being on this panel. This has been super fun and these air really big issues. So I want to give you the final word will just give everyone kind of a final say and I just want to throw out their Mars law. People talk about Moore's law all the time. But tomorrow's law, which Gardner stolen made into the hype cycle, you know, is that we tend to overestimate in the short term, which is why you get the hype cycle and we turn. Tend to underestimate, in the long term the impacts of technology. So I just want it is you look forward in the future won't put a year number on it, you know, kind of. How do you see this rolling out? What do you excited about? What are you scared about? What should we be thinking about? We'll start with you, Bob. >>Yeah, you know, for me and, you know, the day of the terminus Heathrow. I don't know if it's 100 years or 1000 years. That day is coming. We will eventually build something that's in part of the human. I think the mission about the book, you know, you look like a thing and I love >>you. >>Type of thing that was written by someone who tried to train a I to basically pick up lines. Right? Cheesy pickup lines. Yeah, I'm not for sure. I'm gonna trust a I to help me in my pickup lines yet. You know I love you. Look at your thing. I love you. I don't know if they work. >>Yeah, but who would? Who would have guessed online dating is is what it is if you had asked, you know, 15 years ago. But I >>think yes, I think overall, yes, we will see the Terminator Cp through It was probably not in our lifetime, but it is in the future somewhere. A. I is definitely gonna be on par with the Internet cell phone, radio. It's gonna be a technology that's gonna be accelerating if you look where technology's been over last. Is this amazing to watch how fast things have changed in our lifetime alone, right? Yeah, we're just on this curve of technology accelerations. This in the >>exponential curves China. >>Yeah, I think the thing I'm most excited about for a I right now is the addition of creativity to a lot of our jobs. So ah, lot of we build an augmented writing product. And what we do is we look at the words that have happened in the world and their outcomes. And we tell you what words have impacted people in the past. Now, with that information, when you augment humans in that way, they get to be more creative. They get to use language that have never been used before. To communicate an idea. You can do this with any field you can do with composition of music. You can if you can have access as an individual, thio the data of a bunch of cultures the way that we evolved can change. So I'm most excited about that. I think I'm most concerned currently about the products that we're building Thio Give a I to people that don't understand how to use it or how to make sure they're making an ethical decision. So it is extremely easy right now to go on the Internet to build a model on a data set. And I'm not a specialist in data, right? And so I have no idea if I'm adding bias in or not, um and so it's It's an interesting time because we're in that middle area. Um, and >>it's getting loud, all right, Roger will throw with you before we have to cut out, or we're not gonna be able to hear anything. So I actually start every presentation out with a picture of the Mosaic browser, because what's interesting is I think that's where >>a eyes today compared to kind of weather when the Internet was around 1994 >>were just starting to see how a I can actually impact the average person. As a result, there's a lot of hype, but what I'm actually finding is that 70% of the company's I talked to the first question is, Why should I be using this? And what benefit does it give me? Why 70% ask you why? Yeah, and and what's interesting with that is that I think people are still trying to figure out what is this stuff good for? But to your point about the long >>run, and we underestimate the longer I think that every company out there and every product will be fundamentally transformed by eye over the course of the next decade, and it's actually gonna have a bigger impact on the Internet itself. And so that's really what we have to look forward to. >>All right again. Thank you everybody for participating. There was a ton of fun. Hope you had fun. And I look at the score sheet here. We've got Bob coming in and the bronze at 15 points. Rajan, it's 17 in our gold medal winner for the silver Bell. Is Sharna at 20 points. Again. Thank you. Uh, thank you so much and look forward to our next conversation. Thank Jeffrey Ake signing out from Caesar's Juniper. Next word unpacking. I Thanks for watching.

>> All right, Cool. We'll go with the first round of this, and we'll see how the central roles perfect. Uh, three, two and one. All right, I'm here with our guests. Chase Phelps, the director of sports science at Stanford University. Chase has an amazing background, and I was fortunate enough to work underneath him at Stanford. Chase is more than versatile. He has a deep understanding in regards to human physiology, but also the technology involved in monitoring athletes and performance in general. So, Chase, I'll let you take it away here, and I can't talk about yourself and the journey that you tell to get to where you are. I personally heard it multiple times. It's quite interesting. And for those listeners out there is going to be a good experience to hear exactly how someone chases esteem, Got to where he is, how the road's not always quite a straight line. >> Well, I appreciate you having me on II. You must be getting the checks in the mail to have that type of intro because that's way over the top on how good I am with my job. But I appreciate it. Um, so I think for me. You know, it started, I think, for a lot of us being in the gym as an athlete, Uh, you know, kind of being one of those guys has gotta work harder. Teo, you know, catch up with the other people who are coming naturally talented. So I started office of your general meathead in the gym in high school, doing all the dumb lab bench incline bench declined, bench checked back into, you know, all the flies, you, Khun Dio, and kind of started to figure out that, ah, I needed, you know, um or scientific way, I guess toe train myself and started out going to a velocity sports informants and, you know, one of those big kind of box performance gyms and got hooked up really, really lucky. Got hooked up with some people who at the time, I didn't know where were ahead of the game, but kind of started giving me the wise behind, you know, all the things I was doing in the gym and sort of kind of carbon that path for laying the foundation. So to say so I went to Undergrad, play the cross in college, Um, and they're so science piece started the internships to be a traditional sec coach on the floor, huh? I did. Let's see. Old Dominion. Radford, Virginia Attack. I AMG performance. Um, you know, just kind of laying the coaching trenches, laying down in the trenches, trying tow, kind of get myself the experience necessary to move ahead of Attritional SEC coach. So I got really lucky and that I got a job at Hampton University is an assistant. And within about seven months of being there, the director at the time up and left and they had nobody to help out with football, they have to take over. And really at an age that was way too young for me to be in that role, and so that was kind of my first, you know, probably fire experience, being twenty three years old, heading up, you know, the one double a football for him, still division one football team where I >> it >> was pretty pretty novice at the time. And while I didn't mess anything up to bad, it was definitely I would change a lot of what I did at the time. So I looked back on an experience that was extremely valuable. But from there, I actually had a stent where I was unemployed. So ah, little life lesson is, I took somebody's word on a job without having it written out and quit my job at Hampton, thinking I had this position set up and literally it fell through. The guy was like, Hey, listen, it's not gonna happen. I don't know what to tell you. I'm really sorry. So for seven months, I worked at local gyms, private personal training, training athletes on the side. You're basically doing anything I needed to do. Teo maintain coaching, but also keeping income going. Ah, and it's kind of funny because a lot of people don't appreciate that type of setting and the personal training. You're either strength coach. It's not personal training, you know. And, ah, a lot of the stuff that I do now, I still you know, I remember picking out because I was working with the client with rheumatoid arthritis, right? So, like your ability to to regress and a purple issues exercise selections for somebody who's sixty years old and is not very mobile translates very well to return to play in an athlete who just had maybe on a C L surgery on. So I looked back on that time is kind of a weird one in my life, but it was extremely valuable, you know, and my experiences. So I got really lucky. And the networking piece fell together and ended up working with the Naval Special Operations and kind of finding a role in the humor for men's branch. There, Bro is there for a little over three years. I >> it >> was just incredibly lucky to work with some of the people there, Mark Stevenson and and a lot of other guys who are still working there. They're still there now, but they're just they're pushing the field for doing a lot of things behind the scenes that I think really kind of kicked off the sports science. See Dick in the in the U. S and the last, you know, six to eight years on DH. So I was really fortunate toe kind of diversify. My experiences there really start looking at performance and training. I don't want to say like that buzzword of holistic, but just how my diversifying my ability to understand which discipline is doing, whether it's a mental performance coach, our nutritionist or sex, our physical therapist. But how can I better understand those fields, too? Then, you know, make sure that everything I'm doing is complimenting what they're doing on DH. So I was able to land the job at Stanford initially just to run the sports science department. But I also got a little coaching duties. On the side is I work with men soccer. So it's been, Ah, it's been all over the place, you know, traditionally in athletics, but, you know, a little bit of Gen file here. Besides, well, >> so Chase bast fully passed over Hiss lacrosse career, right? And how many was that? Multi time All America. Is that correct? >> I had a couple of years where else? Pretty successful. So, uh, >> and I think that's extremely important to highlight because being an athlete, you deal with all these departments firsthand. You see it from their perspective. And so one thing that Chase has really taught me, I was going forward learning about how you contain to challenge yourself, to put yourself into positions that other people are end. And how do you then think about your actions and what you're going to do as a sports scientist in regard to how and not on ly influences the athlete but the coaches and other staff around him and being an athlete, you firsthand get to experience how it is to have someone else trying to intervene on your daily routine. And that's also mention that Chase is now someone who on what level of ju jitsu he's in. But I know he's tough enough to beat the daylights out of me. And that's something as well has taught me. Is that put yourself in situations where you have to be a beginner again and challenge yourself to have tto learn from Square one. We get caught in these ruts of progress, progress, progress. You go from a beginner. When you first learned how to swing a baseball bat to now you're planned higher level travelling. Baseball is part of your life for myself. Basketball, the chase has taught me, is really embrace those opportunities of struggle and whatever way that comes in its shape and form and put you in those positions. So you have the ability to actually learn from that. And now mention that chase in regards to beat an athlete I think there's many things that we overlook as coaches. We apply the idea of an external load, right. We give them sets and wraps and weights and we write out these long workout for next six months what someone was going to dio. We can't predict the internal load and be an athlete. You understand how it is to not sleep, how it is to maybe stay out a little too late with some of your friends, but how that affects you in regards and athletic setting to reach the goals that you want to reach. So I want to dive in the topic a little bit about internal versus external load. That's something that you really challenged myself to learn about when I was with you. We talked about that in regards to H R V sleep and all the above said, I want to hear a little bit about your take on internal versus external load. What specifically is at turns >> out someone, he said, is being an athlete. I think that goes, You know, it's It's almost like every year that you are in the field. You separate yourself from what it feels like to go through the workouts and the daily grind. So to say right, it's really easy to write up a bard and have no thought process about how somebody feels on day six of a week where they've been pulling all day school two and a half hour, three hour practice our weights and you're like, Oh, man, we got a great dynamic effort. Lower body session finished office. Um, you know, if our glory body squats like you know it's It's just really easy to forget how how things can accumulate and how you know you're just trying to kind of that times get through it all and you head above water. Whereas we're thinking about optimizing, for they may be thinking about Hey, I just need to know what my head down and get through today. So I think it was a great point. But I think going on to the external love peace, obviously the U. S. In the last, you know, six, seventy nine years has exploded trying to catch up, maybe with Australian, The Europe of the world have been, um, really kind on the forefront of this, uh, objective collection of needs analysis for sport. You know, whether that's an external load of what they're doing, the mechanical demands of the sports. So how far they're running? What are the physical characteristics that you see? See environmental capabilities, as in, you know, beads with velocities, where they simply gotta Iran hominy times that they're going to change direction, really understanding the demands of the sport versus the internal loading piece, which you're going to be Howard, these individuals responding to those demands and I think the key word there being individual, we know that certain athletes are always going to be pushed and filtered into sports that there, uh, naturally, good at right. Like, I think we all tend a favor, things that we've been successful at. And as we kind of go up through our broken physical education system, we haven't done a really good job. I think in our country of kind of diversifying and scaling appropriate levels to make sure people are developing and multiple ways we kind of just like, Oh, you're good at this sport. Keep at it. You suck. You're out on. And I think if we were to kind of cater developmental, developmentally appropriate skill acquisition techniques and I'm stealing all this from a classmate of mine, Peter Bergen City proud, I think a better job of scaling, you know, developmental levels. I think you would see Maur athletes come out of that. That would be successful instead of just they only go on the tall guy put him under the basket. Um, you know, you would be able to develop more skills, but back to the internal load piece on understanding that, like I work with Ben Soccer Max, we're talking about this maybe your ago. I have a guy who logged twenty thousand meters in a playoff game last year, You know, that's over twelve and a half >> miles on run game. And he >> had played a game two days earlier and had been practicing for four months. And it comes to the question of like, How does somebody do that? Do that? Do you train them to do that? Do they just follow the program and all of us and they could do that. Or did there, I guess, internal demands to the sport over time. It took years. It took decades and in my opinion, took that after we to play the sport of high level, you know, for ten plus years to be able to get that cardiac adaptation of peripheral ability to be so efficient that they can run and change and cutting jump a tte that intensity. And so an athlete like that that that internal load, you know, they're going to be very, very effective and mobilizing energy. They're going to be very good of providing blood and oxygen to the to the outside of the body, whereas, you know, you take, not tow it, almost four. But like softball, that's a completely different athlete. And so if you were to ask them to have, ah, Despaigne similar demands, we know that internal load would be different. They're gonna have an inefficiency that, uh, you know what, I've election, Amy. A struggle to match the requirements of work or mechanical load that you're placing upon the athletes. So I think you know, it's really important as you start to look at that internal versus external. The external is critical, I think, on a lot of sports were just now identifying what is necessary to be successful on the field as and what they're doing. So you can start it that, you know, backwards, design and work. Your program to say here is ultimately what they have to be able to do. This is a worst case scenario on the field. This is how we should cater our return to play protocols so that we know we're working towards ultimately the ideal player. And that's sports and >> interesting. Yeah, not to cut you off. I did make some clarity here in regards to internal versus external loads. We talked about external load. We're talking about the amount of work someone actually does. Yes. So the amount of weight being lifted, how fast someone's running, how many pages someone can read, Right? And we end the guards, student, one intern and what side? Go ahead. >> It's really what is happening. What are you doing? What? How much of something? >> Something you're applying to the body. And then the internal load is the physiological changes that take place. And so the most basic concept is Hey, we're going to give you a weight program. We're gonna lift X amount of weight for X amount of days with the external load, intending to change the internal environment to grow muscle. And then the more muscle you grow, the more internal load you can handle. So you're adaptive capacity, that big bucket of how much you can handle a life. You become very efficient at handling that consistent external load and you increase your ability, whether it be efficiently or the magnitude. Insides that bucket to handle. A larger, I guess, external load in regards to having a larger internal capacity. And so what you're talking about is when our buck it's very specific Say we're playing soccer and we changed, too, you know, let's say tennis or in your case, saw Hall. You mentioned the softball player would struggle with soccer, and the soccer player would struggle with tennis because those external loads are so different than the internal capabilities of that individual. Is that correct? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think I think the higher level you go you definitely see that specificity of coordinated skills really kind of become a guest. Very nish. And what you typically say and I actually kind of think it's funny because I've said it. So then guilty as charged is that you'll look at a soccer player, you know, somebody who can play at the highest level and is sprinting doing all these different, you know, athletic exercises and then we'll be like, Man, they're bad athlete. They can't skip or look at that spa product. It's terrible and you know, you kind of take a step back and you're like, was the gold toe squatters, the gold toe score goals and play soccer? Um, and then some, you know, may argue. It will, you know, had the longevity of peace or they're gonna be in a more front injury, all that on and at the same time. And I think about that subconscious confidence when you put some money in a gym and a, you know, a new environment where they may not have done these things. They're very aware they're consciously in confident. They're sitting there going, I >> suck at this >> and they overthink it, right, and then you ask him to, like, go out on the field and kick a ball around, and they're doing these things. They're changing direction, which is basically a squat with shen angles changed. Uh, yeah, you know these things fluently without even thinking about it. So it's like their ability is there. It's just not in the right contact. >> Interesting. Yes, they bring up the concept of selling, being consciously aware, right? So they might be in a nervous kind of state. They're not familiar with the weight room, and that actually bring some level anxiety, possibly that true. And that itself may make the weight room instead of ah, use dresser, which is something very positive. It might be a distress, sir, and so they see that waiting is negative. And so now they're nervous toe workout and they have to work out, which makes the internal load even larger. So make this environment that kind of gets magnified. In regards to that. What other factors influence your internal load? Something I mentioned was that stress and obviously their external stressors, especially at Stanford, work very intelligent students who are having to go through rigorous testing in school. And it's a very competitive environment, not just athletically, but, um, you know, the education side as well through those stressors and past internal load. And if it does, how does that influenced the amount? External load? As a coach, you might provide? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think it's always going to be multispectral. It's always going to be. It depends on who's who's the athlete. What's their background? And the supporter? The activity. You're asking to dio, um, the daily life of the twenty two hours that they're not with you. Are they hydrated? Are they eating properly? They fuelling for adequate activity. Are they getting enough sleep? Are they, you know, have a test for their psychosocial factors at play? Like their girlfriend or boyfriend just broke up with him. And I think all those things obviously have an impact Has been Aton and ton of focus placed on this type of, I guess, capturing that whole athlete. Whereas maybe, you know, years ago, you would look at tonnage and now people will look tonnage. And what that stress load is, what that academic load is Because, you know, research is coming out. Now that we know that these types of overloaded stressors and stresses the same stress of you know makes you resilient can break you down. So it's really the improper dozing and inability to cope with that load, and that's dressed, it creates the problems. But, um, you know, you look at athletes who are an exam week, there's research talking about that people hell less efficiently. They have immune issues. So you're seeing people get sick. You're seeing that inability to adapt and cope with the demands that are placed on him, being significantly altered by some other type of factor outside of a weight room or a field. Um, you know, I think the the fact that the collegiate environment is being more aware to that and teams they're trying to push practice in the morning. A little later, they're tryingto manipulate schedules so that its aren't just running straight from class. But they have a little time between do get some type of snack and to some moment to themselves toe. Take a couple of rest before they go out on the flip side, right after practice. Are they running directly into Ah, you know, a test or something? Or are they actually will have a little moments of themselves where they can kind of down, regulate, take everything in and then move on? I think that those types of things, well or not, massive are significant because they happened ten to twenty times every day over the span of weeks in years. And that's really the problems, that chronic buildup of a over activated, sympathetic response that maybe exacerbated by an athletes Taipei, their personalities or type a person. Yeah. Hey, I'm driven. I'm a pi performer. This is what I do, or maybe some of the lifestyle stuff. So maybe that there's somebody who you know is just pumping refined sugars and other body and creating a flux and blood sugar regulation that again mobilizes cortisol, a sympathetic response. And next thing you know, you've just in the span of three hours tagged on six different things, albeit slightly different, that had the same outcome on the system. So that internal response becomes very, very sensitive. Teo, everything you're doing because it's that chronic build up that's really taken its toll on it. >> Interesting. So he bring up the idea of the sympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system being broken down. I guess being partnered with, I should say with the parasympathetic nervous system, right, that makes up your autonomic nervous systems. So for those you're not familiar. Sympathetic nervous systems, your fighter flight. It mobilizes energy. It's looked at to be very important for survival. If we saw a lion during evolutionary times would help us increase our heart rate, Increased auction supply, mobilized energy so we could run away from a lion. But then we had the parasympathetic aspect. That branch would help regulate rest. And I just kind of the repair and rebuild process. Now, with that, you mentioned the hyperactivity of the sympathetic nervous system. Now, does this get out of whack? Sometimes if you're an athlete, your individual were chronically stressed. And if so, does that affect some of your endocrinology? So how your body responds? And what kind of tips can you have No muse with your athletes or yourself to get yourself back into a parasympathetic state? Yes, >> that's a great point. I think the and not tow to correct you. I think what you're saying is absolutely right. I think the key is, is not constantly counter act sympathetic, but is to bring the body back into a more balanced ability to appropriately turn on sympathetic into appropriately eternal in Paris. Sympathetic and what you typically see, and I said it so I think you're totally right, is sympathetic, does become the primary driver, but it isn't all about just turning on sympathetic. It's it's having the ability to use both when you need it. And I think a lot of times the door or the window to that is to drive parasympathetic activity on so that it can kind of restore itself. Ah, and then the goal. Once you're kind of an ability where you have a little bit more of stability and that is, then tow, have access to both. >> So you talk to me about me. Interrupt chase. But this is something to remind me completely where, if someone is chronically sympathetic, let's say they're in a game situation. This can goes back. That being stressed out, they might have hyperactivity, sympathetic nervous system and correct if I'm wrong, this decentralize is sorry. Desensitize is the frontal cortex and reduces some individuals ability to make decisions, especially when fatigue begins to set in. Because you have multiple areas of stress coming to body fatigue, the actual stress emotional of the situation and in the person's internal Billy to regulate that, that's something you talking to me about? Spoken with me about while Stanford. I found that topic to be extremely interesting and do the fact that it's completely universal. Whether you're an athlete or your individual going in for a job interview, they kind of fall under the same umbrella. Is this the case? >> Yes, excuse me. So I think ultimately it's a fine line, right? So I think the sympathetic nervous system actually has been shown to enhance some cognitive activities, right? So it does increase that acute ability, toe recall some information and at the same time and over driven response of it can almost shut everything down. And that's where you see people kind of like getting up hyperventilating and not being able to perform and really kind of altering some type of, um, thoughtful, logical, rational action. So I think it comes down to two primary things. It's a primary and secondary appraisal, and this is a psychology based concept. But I think it applies basically everything in performance and primary, the athlete, the person. Whoever is going to say what is happening, and this is subconscious and happening in different aspects of the Iranian or not I fell. Missed what? Your body goes, What's? What is this? Right? So I looked at the analogy of you walk into a bar. All right, You scan the bar, You have a very, very fast Ah, action arms. Excuse me? Decision about what is in that bar. Is that a threat? Do you see a bunch of hell's angels with guns and, you know, baseball bats sitting there? Or do you see a bunch of friends? Right, So and then it's that same split. Second, a secondary appraisal happens to the primary. That's secondary being. Do I have the resources to cope with this? And that is really what dictates what type of response and house is going to send. Oh, are the brain will send to the body to stimulate what side of the annulment? Nervous system. Right. So if I walk in, I say what? I don't like this. Tio. Hey, I've been in this scenario before. It didn't go well. That's when that sympathetic sent a kick on because I got to get out of here verses. I walk into that same place. It's a bunch of friends, You know, It's my old buddy from college. You're gonna have a completely different mobilization of your transmitters of hormones. Because of your perception of the stressor is completely different. And you mentioned you stress distress. And I think that that's the case for everything, because, uh, not to go on a rant. But if you if you take an athlete who loves running, that stress of running is completely different than an athlete who doesn't like running right. So their perception of an activity, albeit the same activity, will have a different psycho physiological manifestation of stress or load on the body. And so I think, as we talk about mental toughness with our athlete, even all of that ultimately comes down to have you put them in such situations to prepare them, have confidence in them. And that's what's going to dictate some of these positive body responses that you'll see because they'll walk up to that playing go. Yep. Done this a million times, and that is where you kind of have that mental resilience versus I don't know what's gonna happen. I've never done this before. If I miss, it's going to be the game. Aunt. I think when we talk about all of performance in psychology and physiology. It's so intertwined you cannot separate them, and we like to separate things we like to have absolute. We like to wear a monitor on a wrist or a chest that tells us we're tired or that tells us we've been too stressed. But the reality is, is that the individual differences in perception of stress and my ability, my body's ability to adapt to that stress based on what type of internal environment is kind of walking around twenty four hours a day is going to dictate everything. And that's why it's really tough and in a team environment for us to just blast everybody and say We're gonna stress, you know, we're going to internal load monitoring by H. R. V. Well, that's fantastic and I think there's there's marriage of that. So I'm not saying there isn't what. You better make sure you know a lot about your athletes. You better make sure you have the time to learn about their personalities, how they handle things, What type of family experiences, a fat, what type of things go into them making decisions about what they're experiencing. >> Gotcha. So that I couldn't agree more. Yeah, that's beautifully said one things you mentioned. There was the idea of HRT, but also the idea of perception. So H R v being a reflection on Amit nervous system and compared to your own baseline when your H R V numbers lower means you have less variability that, essentially inferring a higher level of sympathetic drive when you're HIV is higher, infers a more balanced eight or more parasympathetic state, essentially less sympathetic, right? Right. And so we start using H R V, and we talk about that as an internal tool. They also mentioned the idea ofthe having individuals be in situations that are similar to that of sport. Do you think there's a time and place for real time H R V feedback and HIV training? And would you possibly put someone in a situation where they're trying to score that goal? Maybe you fatigued them with, say, a sled push or prowler push and then you have there HIV tank. And they have to perform a difficult technical task in attempt to have them auto regulate that H R V. So they can perform that task successfully, making training and skill development much more specific and begin to messed together. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's biofeedback. Wanna one, right? That's that's ah, thought technology, heart, math. All those companies out there using that with Forman psychologists to see how people a handle the stressors implied on them. But how did they bounce back? So the military has been doing this for years and live monitoring H R V on some of the operators and then watching them perform. You know, they're training, going through selection and training bases where they have Tio ah, handle extremely dynamic and challenging environments where they're under watch, their being scrutinised every step of the way. And so what we've actually seen is that people who on average, you know it's not. There's anomalies of force. People who take the hit right, so you'll see a drop in H R B or increasing sympathetic tone. They will actually bounce back, though, so having a stressor impact your your your body is is normal. But the ability to rebound and kind of come back to those norms within a relatively quick period of time is what is critical for high performance. You know, they talked about having a five minute or a three hundred feet average prior to that activity to get a baseline. What we found in some of the research coming out now you can actually probably cut it down to one two, three minutes. Right? So it becomes much more, I guess. Logistically feasible. Tohave guys sit around for one to three minutes, kind of collect that boarding for baseline and then go about their day. And that's really critical to get that that daily baseline. Because as we talked about, if you're on day six of AH long week, your body is functioning and flowing. Ah, and kind of repair mode. It's trying to keep up with what you've been putting it through. So each day that you wake up, you are gonna be slightly different than what you do where for. So it's not an apples, apples. You gotta look at your ability to flux in that Alice static load and your body's proactive decision making to try and match what it was doing in the prior day's training. Evolution >> Dacha. So H r v itself. I refer to the check engine light because it doesn't necessarily come from one area and come from emotional you, Khun, Stub your toe. You can have a lower H R V. And some of the things I've been reading about lately and talking to you about office, podcast or text message and kindly enough, you respond to my random texts at nine thirty at night with a slew of articles and ten questions, has been a nutritional side right and the idea of low level systemic inflammation or inadequate nutrition. What I mean by that is, I will put in food into her body under the assumption that this is going to give us a positive effect. Really. Sometimes the food that we put into our body are causing a stressor on our system, because either, eh, they're so foreign to us in regards to weigh their process or be too simple sugars. And them and I mean simple in terms of your eating a fruit loop have an effect on our body that can take us down a road that necessarily isn't positive for adaptation. And just like H. R. V. Is affected by your psychological perception, I've been read a little bit about H. R V is a kind of systemic monitor and how it could be influenced by nutrition in regards that nutritional aspect. I know we've talked a little bit about biomarkers and some of the diving deep into internal medicine and understanding that our body is very complex. It's made of of all these subsystems and how one subsystem acts might affect how another subsystem acts. And as we gain these risk factors of an adequate nutrients status, our overall risk profile increases and the idea that we might have an emergent pattern in terms of illness manifests increases. So I want to hear some of your thoughts on some of the internal medicine where that's going in regards to bio markers for athletics, human performance and just general wellness. I know you're not a physician and you're not ordering bloodwork and diagnosing off blood work. But being a sports scientist, I do think it's important to appreciate and understand some of these concepts, and you have a great indepth knowledge in this area. So I love to hear a little more about it. >> Yeah, no, I think that's an area and by no means a mine expert, right? I just read a lot of things and copy what other people say so I have to always say that. No, that's what we always hang her hat on is that if you go through the research, you're basically taking somebody else's thoughts interpreting to your own. So my experiences with this, our personal and what I've seen in a professional setting and all kind of touched on the personal piece because I think you know, as we talked about being an athlete and understanding what people go through, our own experiences can drive a lot of how we make decisions with their athletes or are clients or whoever working with and that basically, for twenty five years of my life I've been on some form of allergy medicine allergies, shot decongestant Z Pac to get rid of a sinus infection, you name it. I had, I had and I had multiple sci affections every year and not one time. I want your nose and throat, Doctor Otto. You know, allergy specialists now, one time to never anyone ever bring up what you're putting in your body. And you know, it took you know, I went toe doctor Dima Val seminar last summer and it took ah, somebody while he's very good, but it took somebody to kind of like, say, Hey, man, like it's not just isolating the symptom and given you an anti histamine or something like that, you got to think that you're in a systemic state of inadequacy. Your body doesn't have the ability to recognize normal nutrients as you eat things. But then also, it doesn't have the ability to recognize, um, some of the I guess the things that are supposed to be normal now become pathological. And it's just complete dysfunctional cycle. And so for me, I literally just He said, Hey, do me a favor. Stop eating dairy. Okay? Yeah, I love cheese, but we'll do that. And I literally and within three to four days, every single allergies symptom. I had one away. I haven't had any issues for seven and a half months. While legal thing, >> I >> haven't had any issues. Haven't got sick once. And it was just one thing come to find out. I have a lactose allergy. And not only does it didn't affect me like g I distress, but it effects chronic states of allergies. So my body was perceiving things as, ah, the enemy and the immune system was essentially creating that inflammatory response to deal with them s So I think that first and foremost, I started just looking at Maybe people are eating things that they may have a low grade flamer. Inflammatory response. Tio, Um, I was taking and sets staking insides like there were Andy since I was sixteen years old. You know, being an athlete, you get off him a practice, your knees hurt, ankle hurts. Whatever happens, you know, you just take him so that you can, um >> you know, keep >> on going toe to practice. The next day, um, I was taking CPAC's >> is >> taking prednisone. All these things basically put my spotty in a state of in a state of shock to a point where it can actually regulate normal. >> So just take that >> into my work and special environment. And we have athletes who were under that significant academic stress, social stress and the physical stress. Well, we also see is they're just like me. And then they were taken and said they were taken. You know, prednisone. They're taking quarter to steroids for asthma, exercise induced asthma. They were taking all these things that basically is driving the body into a state of alarm where it doesn't have a normalcy to it. So we're not seeing the immune system actually do its job. We're seeing chronic sympathetic response basically to everything that's being put into the body. So with that low grade inflammation that's happening over weeks, months, years, you get that inability to handle external loads, then that's where than internal load becomes so critical. But what once is, maybe a resilient person now they're getting the sniffles every three weeks now they're walking around with some type of tell, ephemeral and an itis. Ah, no. I think that we so easily look at Oh, they landed on it funny and practice. Oh, they took a bump or a bruise for somebody. But maybe that is exacerbated. Or maybe that's highly sensitive due to the fact that the body isn't able to function under normal circumstances. >> No, that's there's a lot of topics in that one dive into you. Um, I guess what is immediate topics that's most applicable for individuals, the idea of in said's and how? I mean, when I was in ah, middle school, I must have taken maybe six, four, five before a game when I was playing, and it felt nothing. Elements. I can only imagine what that's doing to my internal, You know, my, my style making my gastric system and how much to chewed up. Yeah, that's a lot of information that's come out regarding tendon healing and the adaptations of it, um, you've taught me well, I think the first one to bring this to my attention on some of the detriments of and said itself and some of the alternative we could possibly have, such as your human and things that don't necessarily tear our system up. Um, you give any thoughts on that and how that might play a role than Okay. We have this functional medicine world. Now, how do we apply that into, you know, physical therapy. And if we're trying to have ten and adaptations in regards to Isometrics, you might be doing them to increase longevity and reduced to an apathy or for film someone up with insides. Are we really getting the bang for the buck we want to get or we just causing more harm than good? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, you said it right there and that. Are you taking that risk reward on using that, like, a short term? Ah, you know that hill, Teo, is it overriding what you truly want in the long term? Okay, so we talked about adaptation you mentioned Well, we've seen that and sides actually have. Ah, a destruction of satellite cells. So when you're normally building muscle and you're having some of these repair sells, Memento help stimulate regeneration and says, Well, actually blunt that response to Seo X one and two being the primary enzymes associated with that, we'll actually get shut down. Ah, And when they dio, you're literally stopping your body from adapting. Growing. So I talked to my soccer team all the time about I'm like, does it. You guys, You want you're wearing the sleepless shirts. You want to fill those things out? Let's not wait from what already isn't there, you know? And I think you know when we start looking at As you mentioned it, healing in the early stage returned to play. And now I'm never going to say, Hey, you know, you shouldn't do that. That's always up to the doctors and the medical professionals. But I think that there is lack of thought for our long term. Ah, mala dictations. So you mentioned, do we alter college and proliferation for the expense of just taking down some swelling and irritation? Maybe that paper's the response can be better handled by Tylenol or whatever else somebody thinks because I think it's critical. Especially, you know, you see the two different primary types intelligent Type one and Type three. They've seen that there is a blunted response and how that tendon regenerates. And so I think, you know, little things like that. Those conversations you have with your athletic trainer or your doctor and be like, Hey, is this absolutely necessary? I'm not questioning your rationale. But does this athlete need that? Or is there something else we can do? Is going to make sure that when I am doing the Afar or whatever before ISOs to maximize ah tended thickness or tendon restructuring or whatever I'm doing. Are we going to the baby? Out with the bath water? Are we gonna hurt something, You know, for the expense of you know what's easy and what we know from a Western medical model. >> Yeah, that's it. Very interesting moment. Thanks. By the way, I wanna clarify For those not familiar with terminology and says or non sorry, chase, I letyou go ahead there up the real quick and sense of things like ibuprofen and Advil around non steroidal anti inflammatory. Um, what's the d stand for? I'm forgetting right now. Feels stupid. Now draw. Go. Okay. There you go. Yeah, perfect things like ibuprofen and no Advil. I should take like six angel's before I play basketball. Because when it came out, I knew no better. It made me feel better and take more than barrier against coming out that we're really tearing up our system. What's interesting is we look at some of the inflammation studies. You look at older adults. It brings up the idea that as we age, we get in such an inflammatory state. We're taking things like insects, which are known to possibly reduce adaptation shins. And individuals were healthy. It actually increases muscle growth and some of the older adults because their level of inflammation, it's so high systemically that taking something as like an insider Advil, which we think is bad, actually increases adaptation. And they just show I just read a paper. Probably thirty men, too. For this that showed Curcumin has a potential effects to do the same, which might be a healthier alternative to end, says regards to reducing inflammation.