(gentle upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone, to "theCUBE"'s live stage performance here in Palo Alto, California at "theCUBE" Studios. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, kicking off our first inaugural Supercloud event. It's an editorial event, we wanted to bring together the best in the business, the smartest, the biggest, the up-and-coming startups, venture capitalists, everybody, to weigh in on this new Supercloud trend, this structural change in the cloud computing business. We're about to run the Ecosystem Speaks, which is a bunch of pre-recorded companies that wanted to get their voices on the record, so stay tuned for the rest of the day. We'll be replaying all that content and they're going to be having some really good commentary and hear what they have to say. I had a chance to interview and so did Dave. Dave, this is our closing segment where we kind of unpack everything or kind of digest and report. So much to kind of digest from the conversations today, a wide range of commentary from Supercloud operating system to developers who are in charge to maybe it's an ops problem or maybe Oracle's a Supercloud. I mean, that was debated. So so much discussion, lot to unpack. What was your favorite moments? >> Well, before I get to that, I think, I go back to something that happened at re:Invent last year. Nick Sturiale came up, Steve Mullaney from Aviatrix; we're going to hear from him shortly in the Ecosystem Speaks. Nick Sturiale's VC said "it's happening"! And what he was talking about is this ecosystem is exploding. They're building infrastructure or capabilities on top of the CapEx infrastructure. So, I think it is happening. I think we confirmed today that Supercloud is a thing. It's a very immature thing. And I think the other thing, John is that, it seems to me that the further you go up the stack, the weaker the business case gets for doing Supercloud. We heard from Marianna Tessel, it's like, "Eh, you know, we can- it was easier to just do it all on one cloud." This is a point that, Adrian Cockcroft just made on the panel and so I think that when you break out the pieces of the stack, I think very clearly the infrastructure layer, what we heard from Confluent and HashiCorp, and certainly VMware, there's a real problem there. There's a real need at the infrastructure layer and then even at the data layer, I think Benoit Dageville did a great job of- You know, I was peppering him with all my questions, which I basically was going through, the Supercloud definition and they ticked the box on pretty much every one of 'em as did, by the way Ali Ghodsi you know, the big difference there is the philosophy of Republicans and Democrats- got open versus closed, not to apply that to either one side, but you know what I mean! >> And the similarities are probably greater than differences. >> Berkely, I would probably put them on the- >> Yeah, we'll put them on the Democrat side we'll make Snowflake the Republicans. But so- but as we say there's a lot of similarities as well in terms of what their objectives are. So, I mean, I thought it was a great program and a really good start to, you know, an industry- You brought up the point about the industry consortium, asked Kit Colbert- >> Yep. >> If he thought that was something that was viable and what'd they say? That hyperscale should lead it? >> Yeah, they said hyperscale should lead it and there also should be an industry consortium to get the voices out there. And I think VMware is very humble in how they're putting out their white paper because I think they know that they can't do it all and that they do not have a great track record relative to cloud. And I think, but they have a great track record of loyal installed base ops people using VMware vSphere all the time. >> Yeah. >> So I think they need a catapult moment where they can catapult to the cloud native which they've been working on for years under Raghu and the team. So the question on VMware is in the light of Broadcom, okay, acquisition of VMware, this is an opportunity or it might not be an opportunity or it might be a spin-out or something, I just think VMware's got way too much engineering culture to be ignored, Dave. And I think- well, I'm going to watch this very closely because they can pull off some sort of rallying moment. I think they could. And then you hear the upstarts like Platform9, Rafay Systems and others they're all like, "Yes, we need to unify behind something. There needs to be some sort of standard". You know, we heard the argument of you know, more standards bodies type thing. So, it's interesting, maybe "theCUBE" could be that but we're going to certainly keep the conversation going. >> I thought one of the most memorable statements was Vittorio who said we- for VMware, we want our cake, we want to eat it too and we want to lose weight. So they have a lot of that aspirations there! (John laughs) >> And then I thought, Adrian Cockcroft said you know, the devs, they want to get married. They were marrying everybody, and then the ops team, they have to deal with the divorce. >> Yeah. >> And I thought that was poignant. It's like, they want consistency, they want standards, they got to be able to scale And Lori MacVittie, I'm not sure you agree with this, I'd have to think about it, but she was basically saying, all we've talked about is devs devs devs for the last 10 years, going forward we're going to be talking about ops. >> Yeah, and I think one of the things I learned from this day and looking back, and some kind of- I've been sauteing through all the interviews. If you zoom out, for me it was the epiphany of developers are still in charge. And I've said, you know, the developers are doing great, it's an ops security thing. Not sure I see that the way I was seeing before. I think what I learned was the refactoring pattern that's emerging, In Sik Rhee brought this up from Vertex Ventures with Marianna Tessel, it's a nuanced point but I think he's right on which is the pattern that's emerging is developers want ease-of-use tooling, they're driving the change and I think the developers in the devs ops ethos- it's never going to be separate. It's going to be DevOps. That means developers are driving operations and then security. So what I learned was it's not ops teams leveling up, it's devs redefining what ops is. >> Mm. And I think that to me is where Supercloud's going to be interesting- >> Forcing that. >> Yeah. >> Forcing the change because the structural change is open sources thriving, devs are still in charge and they still want more developers, Vittorio "we need more developers", right? So the developers are in charge and that's clear. Now, if that happens- if you believe that to be true the domino effect of that is going to be amazing because then everyone who gets on the wrong side of history, on the ops and security side, is going to be fighting a trend that may not be fight-able, you know, it might be inevitable. And so the winners are the ones that are refactoring their business like Snowflake. Snowflake is a data warehouse that had nothing to do with Amazon at first. It was the developers who said "I'm going to refactor data warehouse on AWS". That is a developer-driven refactorization and a business model. So I think that's the pattern I'm seeing is that this concept refactoring, patterns and the developer trajectory is critical. >> I thought there was another great comment. Maribel Lopez, her Lord of the Rings comment: "there will be no one ring to rule them all". Now at the same time, Kit Colbert, you know what we asked him straight out, "are you the- do you want to be the, the Supercloud OS?" and he basically said, "yeah, we do". Now, of course they're confined to their world, which is a pretty substantial world. I think, John, the reason why Maribel is so correct is security. I think security's a really hard problem to solve. You've got cloud as the first layer of defense and now you've got multiple clouds, multiple layers of defense, multiple shared responsibility models. You've got different tools for XDR, for identity, for governance, for privacy all within those different clouds. I mean, that really is a confusing picture. And I think the hardest- one of the hardest parts of Supercloud to solve. >> Yeah, and I thought the security founder Gee Rittenhouse, Piyush Sharrma from Accurics, which sold to Tenable, and Tony Kueh, former head of product at VMware. >> Right. >> Who's now an investor kind of looking for his next gig or what he is going to do next. He's obviously been extremely successful. They brought up the, the OS factor. Another point that they made I thought was interesting is that a lot of the things to do to solve the complexity is not doable. >> Yeah. >> It's too much work. So managed services might field the bit. So, and Chris Hoff mentioned on the Clouderati segment that the higher level services being a managed service and differentiating around the service could be the key competitive advantage for whoever does it. >> I think the other thing is Chris Hoff said "yeah, well, Web 3, metaverse, you know, DAO, Superclouds" you know, "Stupercloud" he called it and this bring up- It resonates because one of the criticisms that Charles Fitzgerald laid on us was, well, it doesn't help to throw out another term. I actually think it does help. And I think the reason it does help is because it's getting people to think. When you ask people about Supercloud, they automatically- it resonates with them. They play back what they think is the future of cloud. So Supercloud really talks to the future of cloud. There's a lot of aspects to it that need to be further defined, further thought out and we're getting to the point now where we- we can start- begin to say, okay that is Supercloud or that isn't Supercloud. >> I think that's really right on. I think Supercloud at the end of the day, for me from the simplest way to describe it is making sure that the developer experience is so good that the operations just happen. And Marianna Tessel said, she's investing in making their developer experience high velocity, very easy. So if you do that, you have to run on premise and on the cloud. So hybrid really is where Supercloud is going right now. It's not multi-cloud. Multi-cloud was- that was debunked on this session today. I thought that was clear. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think- >> It's not about multi-cloud. It's about operationally seamless operations across environments, public cloud to on-premise, basically. >> I think we got consensus across the board that multi-cloud, you know, is a symptom Chuck Whitten's thing of multi-cloud by default versus multi- multi-cloud has not been a strategy, Kit Colbert said, up until the last couple of years. Yeah, because people said, "oh we got all these multiple clouds, what do we do with it?" and we got this mess that we have to solve. Whereas, I think Supercloud is something that is a strategy and then the other nuance that I keep bringing up is it's industries that are- as part of their digital transformation, are building clouds. Now, whether or not they become superclouds, I'm not convinced. I mean, what Goldman Sachs is doing, you know, with AWS, what Walmart's doing with Azure connecting their on-prem tools to those public clouds, you know, is that a supercloud? I mean, we're going to have to go back and really look at that definition. Or is it just kind of a SAS that spans on-prem and cloud. So, as I said, the further you go up the stack, the business case seems to wane a little bit but there's no question in my mind that from an infrastructure standpoint, to your point about operations, there's a real requirement for super- what we call Supercloud. >> Well, we're going to keep the conversation going, Dave. I want to put a shout out to our founding supporters of this initiative. Again, we put this together really fast kind of like a pilot series, an inaugural event. We want to have a face-to-face event as an industry event. Want to thank the founding supporters. These are the people who donated their time, their resource to contribute content, ideas and some cash, not everyone has committed some financial contribution but we want to recognize the names here. VMware, Intuit, Red Hat, Snowflake, Aisera, Alteryx, Confluent, Couchbase, Nutanix, Rafay Systems, Skyhigh Security, Aviatrix, Zscaler, Platform9, HashiCorp, F5 and all the media partners. Without their support, this wouldn't have happened. And there are more people that wanted to weigh in. There was more demand than we could pull off. We'll certainly continue the Supercloud conversation series here on "theCUBE" and we'll add more people in. And now, after this session, the Ecosystem Speaks session, we're going to run all the videos of the big name companies. We have the Nutanix CEOs weighing in, Aviatrix to name a few. >> Yeah. Let me, let me chime in, I mean you got Couchbase talking about Edge, Platform 9's going to be on, you know, everybody, you know Insig was poopoo-ing Oracle, but you know, Oracle and Azure, what they did, two technical guys, developers are coming on, we dig into what they did. Howie Xu from Zscaler, Paula Hansen is going to talk about going to market in the multi-cloud world. You mentioned Rajiv, the CEO of Nutanix, Ramesh is going to talk about multi-cloud infrastructure. So that's going to run now for, you know, quite some time here and some of the pre-record so super excited about that and I just want to thank the crew. I hope guys, I hope you have a list of credits there's too many of you to mention, but you know, awesome jobs really appreciate the work that you did in a very short amount of time. >> Well, I'm excited. I learned a lot and my takeaway was that Supercloud's a thing, there's a kind of sense that people want to talk about it and have real conversations, not BS or FUD. They want to have real substantive conversations and we're going to enable that on "theCUBE". Dave, final thoughts for you. >> Well, I mean, as I say, we put this together very quickly. It was really a phenomenal, you know, enlightening experience. I think it confirmed a lot of the concepts and the premises that we've put forth, that David Floyer helped evolve, that a lot of these analysts have helped evolve, that even Charles Fitzgerald with his antagonism helped to really sharpen our knives. So, you know, thank you Charles. And- >> I like his blog, by the I'm a reader- >> Yeah, absolutely. And it was great to be back in Palo Alto. It was my first time back since pre-COVID, so, you know, great job. >> All right. I want to thank all the crew and everyone. Thanks for watching this first, inaugural Supercloud event. We are definitely going to be doing more of these. So stay tuned, maybe face-to-face in person. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante now for the Ecosystem chiming in, and they're going to speak and share their thoughts here with "theCUBE" our first live stage performance event in our studio. Thanks for watching. (gentle upbeat music)

(calm electronic music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage here live in New York City for AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, but a great conversation here as the day winds down. First of all, 10,000 plus people, this is a big event, just New York City. So sign of the times that some headwinds are happening? I don't think so, not in the cloud enterprise innovation game. Lot going on, this innovation conversation we're going to have now is about the confluence of cloud scale integration data and the future of how FinTech and other markets are going to change with technology. We got Chris Thomas, the CTO of Slalom, and Rob Krugman, chief digital officer at Broadridge. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> So we had a talk before we came on camera about your firm, what you guys do, take a quick minute to just give the scope and size of your firm and what you guys work on. >> Yeah, so Broadridge is a global financial FinTech company. We work on, part of our business is capital markets and wealth, and that's about a third of our business, about $7 trillion a day clearing through our platforms. And then the other side of our business is communications where we help all different types of organizations communicate with their shareholders, communicate with their customers across a variety of different digital channels and capabilities. >> Yeah, and Slalom, give a quick one minute on Slalom. I know you guys, but for the folks that don't know you. >> Yeah, no problem. So Slalom is a modern consulting firm focused on strategy, technology, and business transformation. And me personally, I'm part of the element lab, which is focused on forward thinking technology and disruptive technology in the next five to 10 years. >> Awesome, and that's the scope of this conversation. The next five to 10 years, you guys are working on a project together, you're kind of customer partners. You're building something. What are you guys working on? I can't wait to jump into it, explain. >> Sure, so similar to Chris, at Broadridge, we've created innovation capability, innovation incubation capability, and one of the first areas we're experimenting in is digital assets. So what we're looking to do is we're looking at a variety of different areas where we think consolidation network effects that we could bring can add a significant amount of value. And so the area we're working on is this concept of a wallet of wallets. How do we actually consolidate assets that are held across a variety of different wallets, maybe traditional locations- >> Digital wallets. >> Digital wallets, but maybe even traditional accounts, bring that together and then give control back to the consumer of who they want to share that information with, how they want their transactions to be able to control. So the idea of, people talk about Web 3 being the internet of value. I often think about it as the internet of control. How do you return control back to the individual so that they can make decisions about how and who has access to their information and assets? >> It's interesting, I totally like the value angle, but your point is what's the chicken and the egg here, the cart before the horse, you can look at it both ways and say, okay, control is going to drive the value. This is an interesting nuance, right? >> Yes, absolutely. >> So in this architectural world, they thought about the data plane and the control plane. Everyone's trying to go old school, middleware thinking. Let's own the data plane, we'll win everything. Not going to happen if it goes decentralized, right, Chris? >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're building a decentralized application, but it really is built on top of AWS. We have a serverless architecture that scales as our business scales built on top of things like S3, Lambda, DynamoDB, and of course using those security principles like Cognito and AWS Gateway, API Gateway. So we're really building an architecture of Web 3 on top of the Web 2 basics in the cloud. >> I mean, all evolutions are abstractions on top of each other, IG, DNS, Key, it goes the whole nine yards. In digital, at least, that's the way. Question about serverless real quick. I saw that Redshift just launched general availability of serverless in Redshift? >> Yes. >> You're starting to see the serverless now part of almost all the services in AWS. Is that enabling that abstraction, because most people don't see it that way. They go, oh, well, Amazon's not Web 3. They got databases, you could use that stuff. So how do you connect the dots and cross the bridge to the future with the idea that I might not think Web 2 or cloud is Web 3? >> I'll jump in quick. I mean, I think it's the decentralize. If you think about decentralization. serverless and decentralization, you could argue are the same way of, they're saying the same thing in different ways. One is thinking about it from a technology perspective. One is thinking about it from an ecosystem perspective and how things come together. You need serverless components that can talk to each other and communicate with each other to actually really reach the promise of what Web 3 is supposed to be. >> So digital bits or digital assets, I call it digital bits, 'cause I think zero ones. If you digitize everything and everything has value or now control drives the value. I could be a soccer team. I have apparel, I have value in my logos, I have photos, I have CUBE videos. I mean some say that this should be an NFT. Yeah, right, maybe, but digital assets have to be protected, but owned. So ownership drives it too, right? >> Absolutely. >> So how does that fit in, how do you explain that? 'Cause I'm trying to tie the dots here, connect the dots and tie it together. What do I get if I go down this road that you guys are building? >> So I think one of the challenges of digital assets right now is that it's a closed community. And I think the people that play in it, they're really into it. And so you look at things like NFTs and you look at some of the other activities that are happening and there are certain naysayers that look at it and say, this stuff is not based upon value. It's a bunch of artwork, it can't be worth this. Well, how about we do a time out there and we actually look at the underlying technology that's supporting this, the blockchain, and the potential ramifications of that across the entire financial ecosystem, and frankly, all different types of ecosystems of having this immutable record, where information gets stored and gets sent and the ability to go back to it at all times, that's where the real power is. So I think we're starting to see. We've hit a bit of a hiccup, if you will, in the cryptocurrencies. They're going to continue to be there. They won't all be there. A lot of them will probably disappear, but they'll be a finite number. >> What percentage of stuff do you think is vapor BS? If you had to pick an order of magnitude number. >> (laughs) I would say at least 75% of it. (John laughs) >> I mean, there's quite a few projects that are failing right now, but it's interesting in that in the crypto markets, they're failing gracefully. Because it's on the blockchain and it's all very transparent. Things are checked, you know immediately which companies are insolvent and which opportunities are still working. So it's very, very interesting in my opinion. >> Well, and I think the ones that don't have valid premises are the ones that are failing. Like Terra and some of these other ones, if you actually really looked at it, the entire industry knew these things were no good. But then you look at stable coins. And you look at what's going on with CBDCs. These are backed by real underlying assets that people can be comfortable with. And there's not a question of, is this going to happen? The question is, how quickly is it going to happen and how quickly are we going to be using digital currencies? >> It's interesting, we always talk about software, software as money now, money is software and gold and oil's moving over to that crypto. How do you guys see software? 'Cause we were just arguing in the queue, Dave Vellante and I, before you guys came on that the software industry pretty much does not exist anymore, it's open source. So everything's open source as an industry, but the value is integration, innovation. So it's not just software, it's the free. So you got to, it's integration. So how do you guys see this software driving crypto? Because it is software defined money at the end of the day. It's a token. >> No, I think that's absolutely one of the strengths of the crypto markets and the Web 3 market is it's governed by software. And because of that, you can build a trust framework. Everybody knows it's on the public blockchain. Everybody's aware of the software that's driving the rules and the rules of engagement in this blockchain. And it creates that trust network that says, hey, I can transact with you even though I don't know anything about you and I don't need a middleman to tell me I can trust you. Because this software drives that trust framework. >> Lot of disruption, lot of companies go out of business as a middleman in these markets. >> Listen, the intermediaries either have to disrupt themselves or they will be disrupted. I think that's what we're going to learn here. And it's going to start in financial services, but it's going to go to a lot of different places. I think the interesting thing that's happening now is for the first time, you're starting to see the regulators start to get involved. Which is actually a really good thing for the market. Because to Chris's point, transparency is here, how do you actually present that transparency and that trust back to consumers so they feel comfortable once that problem is solved. And I think everyone in the industry welcomes it. All of a sudden you have this ecosystem that people can play in, they can build and they can start to actually create real value. >> Every structural change that I've been involved in my 30 plus year career has been around inflection points. There was always some sort of underbelly. So I'm not going to judge crypto. It's been in the market for a while, but it's a good sign there's innovation happening. So as now, clarity comes into what's real. I think you guys are talking a conversation I think is refreshing because you're saying, okay, cloud is real, Lambda, serverless, all these tools. So Web 3 is certainly real because it's a future architecture, but it's attracting the young, it's a cultural shift. And it's also cooler than boring Web 2 and cloud. So I think the cultural shift, the fact that it's got data involved, there's some disruption around middleman and intermediaries, makes it very attractive to tech geeks. You look at, I read a stat, I heard a stat from a friend in the Bay Area that 30% of Cal computer science students are dropping out and jumping into crypto. So it's attracting the technical nerds, alpha geeks. It's a cultural revolution and there's some cool stuff going on from a business model standpoint. >> There's one thing missing. The thing that's missing, it's what we're trying to work on, I think is experience. I think if you're being honest about the entire marketplace, what you would agree is that this stuff is not easy to use today, and that's got to be satisfied. You need to do something that if it's the 85 year old grandma that wants to actually participate in these markets that not only can they feel comfortable, but they actually know how to do it. You can't use these crazy tools where you use these terms. And I think the industry, as it grows up, will satisfy a lot of those issues. >> And I think this is why I want to tie back and get your reaction to this. I think that's why you guys talking about building on top of AWS is refreshing, 'cause it's not dogmatic. Well, we can't use Amazon, it's not really Web 3. Well, a database could be used when you need it. You don't need to write everything through the blockchain. Databases are a very valuable capability, you get serverless. So all these things now can work together. So what do you guys see for companies that want to be Web 3 for all the good reasons and how do they leverage cloud specifically to get there? What are some things that you guys have learned that you can point to and share, you want to start? >> Well, I think not everything has to be open and public to everybody. You're going to want to have some things that are secret. You're going to want to encrypt some things. You're going to want to put some things within your own walls. And that's where AWS really excels. I think you can have the best of both worlds. So that's my perspective on it. >> The only thing I would add to it, so my view is it's 2022. I actually was joking earlier. I think I was at the first re:Invent. And I remember walking in and this was a new industry. >> It was tiny. >> This is foundational. Like cloud is not a, I don't view like, we shouldn't be having that conversation anymore. Of course you should build this stuff on top of the cloud. Of course you should build it on top of AWS. It just makes sense. And we should, instead of worrying about those challenges, what we should be worrying about are how do we make these applications easier to use? How do we actually- >> Energy efficient. >> How do we enable the promise of what these things are going to bring, and actually make it real, because if it happens, think about traditional assets. There's projects going on globally that are looking at how do you take equity securities and actually move them to the blockchain. When that stuff happens, boom. >> And I like what you guys are doing, I saw the news out through this crypto winter, some major wallet exchanges that have been advertising are hurting. Take me through what you guys are thinking, what the vision is around the wallet of wallets. Is it to provide an experience for the user or the market industry itself? What's the target, is it both? Share the design goals for the wallet of wallets. >> My favorite thing about innovation and innovation labs is that we can experiment. So I'll go in saying we don't know what the final answer is going to be, but this is the premise that we have. In this disparate decentralized ecosystem, you need some mechanism to be able to control what's actually happening at the consumer level. So I think the key target is how do you create an experience where the consumer feels like they're in control of that value? How do they actually control the underlying assets? And then how does it actually get delivered to them? Is it something that comes from their bank, from their broker? Is it coming from an independent organization? How do they manage all of that information? And I think the last part of it are the assets. It's easy to think about cryptos and NFTs, but thinking about traditional assets, thinking about identity information and healthcare records, all of that stuff is going to become part of this ecosystem. And imagine being able to go someplace and saying, oh, you need my information. Well, I'm going to give it to you off my phone and I'm going to give it to you for the next 24 hours so you can use it, but after that you have no access to it. Or you're my financial advisor, here's a view of what I actually have, my underlying assets. What do you recommend I do? So I think we're going to see an evolution in the market. >> Like a data clean room. >> Yeah, but that you control. >> Yes! (laughs) >> Yes! >> I think about it very similarly as well. As my journey into the crypto market has gone through different pathways, different avenues. And I've come to a place where I'm really managing eight different wallets and it's difficult to figure exactly where all my assets are and having a tool like this will allow me to visualize and aggregate those assets and maybe even recombine them in unique ways, I think is hugely valuable. >> My biggest fear is losing my key. >> Well, and that's an experience problem that has to be solved, but let me give you, my favorite use case in this space is, 'cause NFTs, right? People are like, what does NFTs really mean? Title insurance, right? Anyone buy a house or refinance your mortgage? You go through this crazy process that costs seven or eight thousand dollars every single time you close on something to get title insurance so they could validate it. What if that title was actually sitting on the chain, you got an NFT that you put in your wallet and when it goes time to sell your house or to refinance, everything's there. Okay, I'm the owner of the house. I don't know, JP Morgan Chase has the actual mortgage. There's another lien, there's some taxes. >> It's like a link tree in the wallet. (laughs) >> Yeah, think about it, you got a smart contract. Boom, closing happens immediately. >> I think that's one of the most important things. I think people look at NFTs and they think, oh, this is art. And that's sort of how it started in the art and collectable space, but it's actually quickly moving towards utilities and tokenization and passes. And that's where I think the value is. >> And ownership and the token. >> Identity and ownership, especially. >> And the digital rights ownership and the economics behind it really have a lot of scale 'cause I appreciate the FinTech angle you are coming from because I can now see what's going on here with you. It's like, okay, we got to start somewhere. Let's start with the experience. The wallet's a tough nut to crack, 'cause that requires defacto participation in the industry as a defacto standard. So how are you guys doing there? Can you give an update and then how can people get, what's the project called and how do people get involved? >> Yeah, so we're still in the innovation, incubation stages. So we're not launching it yet. But what I will tell you is what a lot of our focus is, how do we make these transactional things that you do? How do we make it easy to pull all your assets together? How do we make it easy to move things from one location to the other location in ways that you're not using a weird cryptographic numeric value for your wallet, but you actually can use real nomenclature that you can renumber and it's easy to understand. Our expectation is that sometime in the fall, we'll actually be in a position to launch this. What we're going to do over the summer is we're going to start allowing people to play with it, get their feedback, and we're going to iterate. >> So sandbox in when, November? >> I think launch in the fall, sometime in the fall. >> Oh, this fall. >> But over the summer, what we're expecting is some type of friends and family type release where we can start to realize what people are doing and then fix the challenges, see if we're on the right track and make the appropriate corrections. >> So right now you guys are just together on this? >> Yep. >> The opening up friends and family or community is going to be controlled. >> It is, yeah. >> Yeah, as a group, I think one thing that's really important to highlight is that we're an innovation lab. We're working with Broadridge's innovation lab, that partnership across innovation labs has allowed us to move very, very quickly to build this. Actually, if you think about it, we were talking about this not too long ago and we're almost close to having an internal launch. So I think it's very rapid development. We follow a lot of the- >> There's buy-in across the board. >> Exactly, exactly, and we saw lot of very- >> So who's going to run this? A Dow, or your companies, is it going to be a separate company? >> So to be honest, we're not entirely sure yet. It's a new product that we're going to be creating. What we actually do with it. Our thought is within an innovation environment, there's three things you could do with something. You can make it a product within the existing infrastructure, you can create a new business unit or you can spin it off as something new. I do think this becomes a product within the organization based upon it's so aligned to what we do today, but we'll see. >> But you guys are financing it? >> Yes. >> As collective companies? >> Yeah, right. >> Got it, okay, cool. Well, let us know how we can help. If you guys want to do a remote in to theCUBE. I would love the mission you guys are on. I think this is the kind of work that every company should be doing in the new R and D. You got to jump in the deep end and swim as fast as possible. But I think you can do it. I think that is refreshing and that's smart. >> And you have to do it quick because this market, I think the one thing we would probably agree on is that it's moving faster than we could, every week there's something else that happens. >> Okay, so now you guys were at Consensus down in Austin when the winter hit and you've been in the business for a long time, you got to know the industries. You see where it's going. What was the big thing you guys learned, any scar tissue from the early data coming in from the collaboration? Was there some aha moments, was there some oh shoot moments? Oh, wow, I didn't think that was going to happen. Share some anecdotal stories from the experience. Good, bad, and if you want to be bold say ugly, too. >> Well, I think the first thing I want to say about the timing, it is the crypto winter, but I actually think now's a really great time to build something because everybody's continuing to build. Folks are focused on the future and that's what we are as well. In terms of some of the challenges, well, the Web 3 space is so new. And there's not a way to just go online and copy somebody else's work and rinse and repeat. We had to figure a lot of things on our own. We had to try different technologies, see which worked better and make sure that it was functioning the way we wanted it to function. Really, so it was not easy. >> They oversold that product out, that's good, like this team. >> But think about it, so the joke is that when winter is when real work happens. If you look at the companies that have not been affected by this it's the infrastructure companies and what it reminds me of, it's a little bit different, but 2001, we had the dot com bust. The entire industry blew up, but what came out of that? >> Everything that exists. >> Amazon, lots of companies grew up out of that environment. >> Everything that was promoted actually happened. >> Yes, but you know what didn't happen- >> Food delivery. >> But you know what's interesting that didn't happen- >> (laughs) Pet food, the soccer never happened. >> The whole Super Bowl, yes. (John laughs) In financial services we built on top of legacy. I think what Web 3 is doing, it's getting rid of that legacy infrastructure. And the banks are going to be involved. There's going to be new players and stuff. But what I'm seeing now is a doubling down of the infrastructure investment of saying okay, how do we actually make this stuff real so we can actually show the promise? >> One of the things I just shared, Rob, you'd appreciate this, is that the digital advertising market's changing because now banner ads and the old techniques are based on Web 2 infrastructure, basically DNS as we know it. And token problems are everywhere. Sites and silos are built because LinkedIn doesn't share information. And the sites want first party data. It's a hoarding exercise, so those practices are going to get decimated. So in comes token economics, that's going to get decimated. So you're already seeing the decline of media. And advertising, cookies are going away. >> I think it's going to change, it's going to be a flip, because I think right now you're not in control. Other people are in control. And I think with tokenomics and some of the other things that are going to happen, it gives back control to the individual. Think about it, right now you get advertising. Now you didn't say I wanted this advertising. Imagine the value of advertising when you say, you know what, I am interested in getting information about this particular type of product. The lead generation, the value of that advertising is significantly higher. >> Organic notifications. >> Yeah. >> Well, gentlemen, I'd love to follow up with you. I'm definitely going to ping in. Now I'm going to put CUBE coin back on the table. For our audience CUBE coin's coming. Really appreciate it, thanks for sharing your insights. Great conversation. >> Excellent, thank you for having us. >> Excellent, thank you so much. >> theCUBE's coverage here from New York City. I'm John Furrier, we'll be back with more live coverage to close out the day. Stay with us, we'll be right back. >> Excellent. (calm electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone welcome to theCube special presentation of the Unstoppable Domains partner showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCube. We have here, Cube alumni, Sandy Carter, SVP and channel chief of Unstoppable Domains. Sandy, great to see you. Congratulations on your new assignment. Exciting new company, and thanks for coming on for the showcase. >> Well, thank you, John. It's so fun to always be here with you through all my companies, it's really great. Thanks for having me. >> Well, it's been pretty amazing what's going on in the world right now. We just had the past Super Bowl which is the biggest event in the world around advertising, a lot of Web 3.0, crypto, blockchain, decentralized applications. It's here, it's mainstream. We've talked off camera many times around the shifts in technology, cloud computing. We're now with Web 3.0 and some are even saying Web 4.0. (Sandy laughs) A lot of technology programmers, people who are building new things are all in the Web 3.0 world. It's really going mainstream. So what's your view on that? I see you're in it too. You're leading it. >> I am in it too. And it's so exciting to be at the verge of the next technology trend that's out there. And I'm really excited about this one, John because this is all about ownership. It's about members not users. It's quite fascinating to be honest. >> What is Web 3.0? What is Web 3.0? Define it for us 'cause you have a good knack for putting things in the perspective. People want to know what does this Web 3.0? What does it mean? >> Okay, great. That's a great question. In fact, I have just a couple of slides because I'm a visual learner. So I don't know if you guys could pop up just a couple of slides for us. So first to me, Web 3.0 is really all about this area of ownership and that's whether it's in gaming or art or even business applications today. In fact, let me show you an example. If you go to the next slide, you will see like with Twitter, and John, you and I were there, I was the first person to onstage announce that we were going to do tweets during a major event. And of course I started on Twitter back in 2008, pretty early on. And now the valuation of Twitter is going up, I got a lot of value and I helped to attract a lot of those early users. But my value was really based on the people, building my network, not based on that monetary valuation. So I really wasn't an owner. I was a user of Twitter and helped Twitter to grow. Now, if you go with me to the next slide you'll see just a little bit more about what we're talking about here and I know this is one of your favorites. So Web 1.0 was about discovery. We discovered a lot of information. Web 2.0 was about reading the information but also contributing with that two-way dialogue with social but Web 3.0 is now all about membership, not being a user but being a member and therefore having an ownership stake in the power of what's coming. And I think this is a big differential, John, if I had to just nail one thing. This would be the big differential. >> That's awesome. And I love that slide because it goes to the progression. Most people think of web 1.0 data, the worldwide web, web pages, browsers, search engines, Web 2.0, better interfaces. You got mobile, you got social networks. And then it got messy, bots and misinformation, users of the product being used by the companies. So clearly Web 3.0 is changing all that and I think the ownership thing is interesting because you think about it, we should own our data. We should have a data wallet. We should have all that stored. So this is really at the heart of what you guys are doing. So I think that's a great way to put it. I would ask you what's your impression when people you talk to in the mainstream industry that aren't in Web 3.0 that are coming in, what's their reaction? What do they think? What do they see? >> Well, a lot of what I see from Web 2.0 folks is that they don't understand it, first of all. They're not sure about it. And I always like to say that we're in the early days of Web 3.0. So we're in that dial up phase. What was that? Was that AOL? Remember that little that they used to make? >> (laughs) You've got mail. >> Yeah, you've got mail. That's right. That's where we are today with Web 3.0. And so it is early days and I think people are looking for something they can hang their hat on. And so one of the things that we've been working on are what would be the elements of Web 3.0? And if you could take me to one more slide and this will be my last slide, but again, I'm a very visual person. I think there are really five basic assumptions that Web 3.0 really hangs its hat on. The first is decentralization, or I say at least partially decentralized because today we're building on Web 2.0 technology and that is okay. Number two is that digital identity. That identity you just talked about, John where you take your identity with you. You don't have identity for Twitter, an identity for LinkedIn, an identity for a game. I can take my identity today, play a game with it, bank with it, now move on to a Metaverse with it, the same identity. The other thing we like to say is it's built on blockchain and we know that blockchain is still making a lot of improvements but it's getting better and better and better. It's trustless, meaning there's no in between party. You're going direct, user, member to institution, if you would. So there's no bank in between, for example. And then last but not least, it's financially beneficial for the people involved. It's not just that network effect that you're getting, it's actually financially beneficial for those folks. All five of those give us that really big push towards that ownership notion. >> One thing I would point out, first of all, great insight, I would also add and and love to get your reaction to it, and this is a great lead into the news, but there's also a diversity angle because this is a global phenomenon, okay? And it's also a lot of young cultural shift happening with the younger generation, but also technologists from all ages are participating and all genders. Everything's coming together. It's a melting pot. It's a global... This is like the earth is flat moment for us. This is an interesting time. What's your reaction to them? >> Absolutely and I believe that the more diverse the community can be, the more innovative it will be. And that's been proven out by studies, by McKenzie and Deloitte and more. I think this is a moment for Web 3.0 to be very inclusive. And the more inclusive that Web 3.0 is, the bigger the innovation and the bigger the power and the bigger that dream of ownership will become a reality. So I'm 100% with you on the diversity angle for sure. >> So big new news tomorrow launching. This is super exciting. First of all, I love the acronym, but I love the news. Take us through the big announcement that you're having. >> Yeah. So John, we are so excited. We have over 55 different companies joining together to form Unstoppable Women of Web 3.0, or we call it WOW3. Unstoppable WOW3. And the mission is really clear and very inclusive. The first is that we want to make Web 3.0 accessible for everyone. The second is we don't want to just say we want it accessible for everyone, we want to help with that first step. We're going to be giving away $10 million worth of domains from Unstoppable which we believe is that first step into Web 3.0. And then we're going to be action oriented. We don't want to just say we're going to help you get started or just say that Web 3.0 is accessible, we're going to launch education, networking, and events. So for example, we've got our first in person event that will occur at South by Southwest. Our first virtual event will occur on March 8th which is International Women's Day and there'll be two components of it. One is an hour YouTube Live so that people can come in and ask questions and then we've got a 24 hour Twitter space. So almost every half an hour or every hour on the hour, you're going to have these amazing women talk to you about what is DeFi? What is minting? What is Web 3.0 all about? Why gaming in Web 3.0? I mean, it's just going to be phenomenal. And in that we want to support each other as we're moving forward. This whole concept of from the very beginning, we want Web 3.0 to be diverse. >> And I want to also point out that you've got some activities on the March 8th International Women's Day but it's always every day in this community because it's a community. So this whole idea of community inclusion continues every day. Talk about those activities you're having on March 8th. Can you share what's happening on International Women's Day? >> Yeah, so first we're going to have a YouTube Live where we're going to go in detail into what is Web 3.0? What is DeFi? What is an NFT and why do they exist? Then we're going to have this 24 hour Twitter spaces where we've got all these different guest speakers from the 55 different companies that are supporting the initiative. We're also going to launch a list of the 100 most inspirational women of Web 3.0. We're going to do that twice a year. And we decided John not to do the top women, but the women that are inspirational, who are pioneering the trail, who are having an impact. And so we want it to be a community. So it's 100 of the most inspirational women of Web 3.0. We're also setting up a Web 3.0 Women's Speakers Bureau. So I cannot tell you, John, how many time people will call me up and they'll be like, "We really want you to speak here." And when I really get down to it, they really want me because I'm a woman that can speak about Web 3.0 but there are so many women who can do this. And so I wanted to have a place where everybody could come and see how many different diverse people we have that could speak out this. >> Yeah, and that's a great thing because there are a lot of women who can speak on this. They just have to have their voices found. So there's a lot of discovery in that format. Is there any plans to go beyond? You mentioned some workshops, what other things... Can you give another quick highlight of the things else you're doing post the event? >> Yeah, so one of the big things post the event is working with Girls in Tech, and I know you know Adriana. We are going to host on their platform. They have a platform for mentoring. We're going to host a track for Web 3.0 and during International Women's Day, we're going to auction off some NFTs that will contribute to that mentoring platform. So we've got folks like Lazy Lions and Bella and Deadheads that are going to donate NFTs. We'll auction those off and then that will enable the ongoing platform of Girls in Tech to have that mentoring that will be available for the next generation. We'll also do events, both virtually through Twitter spaces and other means as well as in-person events. I just mentioned at South by Southwest which I'm really looking forward to. We're going to have our first in-person event on March the 12th. It's going to be a brunch. A lot of the women told me, John, that they go to all these Web 3.0 or crypto events and everything's like a frat party in the evening. And they're like, "Why can't we just have a nice brunch and sit down and talk about it?" (John laughs) So at South by Southwest that is exactly what we're going to do. We're going to have a brunch and we're going to sit down and talk about it with all of these companies. And John, one of the things that's amazing to me is that we have over 55 companies that are all coming together to support this initiative. To me, that was just overwhelming. I was hoping to get about 20 companies and so far we have 55. So I'm feeling so excited and so empowered by what I see as the potential for this group. >> Yeah, well, first of all, congratulations. That's a really great thing you're doing. If you need place on theCube to post those videos, if you can get copies, we'd be glad to share them as well 'cause it's super important to get all the great minds out there that are working on Web 3.0 and have them showcased. I got to ask you now that you're in the trenches now, doing all this great work. What are some of the buzzwords that people should know about in Web 3.0? You mentioned to five main pillars as well as the ownership, the paradigm shift, we got that. What are some of the buzzword that people should know about? How would you rank those? >> Well, I think there are a couple. Let's see. I mean, one is if you think about it, what is a decentralized application? Some people call them Dapps. Dapps, you'll hear that a lot. And a decentralized application just means that you are leveraging and using multiple forms. There's no centralization of the back end. So everything is decentralized or moving around. Another is the gas fee. This comes up a lot, many people think, "Oh yeah, I put gas in my car." But a gas fee in Web 3.0 is you're actually paying for those decentralized computers that you're using. So in a centralized land, a company owns those computers. In a decentralized land, since you're using all these different assets, you've got to pay for them and that's what the gas fee is for. The gas fee is to pay for those particular types of solutions. And many of these terms that we're talking about minting, what is an NFT, we'll be explaining all of these terms on International Women's Day in that 24 hour Twitter space as well. >> We'll look forward to that Twitter space. We'll share as well. In the Web 3.0 world, when you look at it, when you look at what Unstoppable's doing, it's a paradigm shift. You laid it out there. What is the bottom line? What's the most practical thing people are doing with the domains? 'Cause it is definitely headroom in terms of capability, single sign on, you own your own data, integrating into wallet and decentralized applications and creating this new wave just like the web. More web pages, better search. More pages, the search has to get better, flywheel kicking in. What's the flywheel for Unstoppable? >> Well, I think the flywheel is the really around digital identity. It's why I came to Unstoppable because I believe that the data about you should be owned by you and that identity now travels with you. It's your wallet, it's your healthcare data, it's your educational records, and it's more. So in the future, that digital identity is going to become so much more important than it is today. And oh my gosh, John, it's going to be used in so many different ways that we can't even imagine it now. So for me, I think that digital identity and it really puts that ownership right in the hands of the members, not in anyone else's hands, a company, a government, et cetera. It puts the ownership of that data in your hands. >> I just love these big waves, these shifts, because you mentioned healthcare. Imagine an NFT is that sign on where you don't have to worry about all these HIPAA regulations. You can just say, "Here's me. Here's who I'm trusted." And they don't even know my name, but they know it's trusted. >> And everything just trickles down from there. >> That's right. >> And all the databases are called. It's all immutable. I got my private key. It unlocks so much potential in a new way. Really is amazing. >> I agree. And even just think about education. I was with Arizona State University and so my daughter took some classes at a community college and I wanted to get those classes and have those credits available for her university. How hard is that? Just to get that education and everything is paper and I had to physically sign, I had to physically mail it. It was pretty crazy. So now imagine that your digital identity contains all of your degrees, all of the skills that you've gone through all of your experiences, John. You told me before the show, all different experiences that you have that I didn't know about. I'm sure a lot of people didn't. What if you had that piece of you that would be available that you could use it at any time. >> It's locked in LinkedIn. There's a silo. Again, I'm a huge believer in silo busting going on. This new generation is not going to tolerate experiences that don't fit their mission. They want to have liberation on their data. They don't want to be the product. They want to have the value. >> That's right. >> And then broker that value for services and be able to be horizontally scalable and pop around from place to place without logging in again or having that siloed platform have the data like LinkedIn. You mentioned my resume's on basically LinkedIn, but I got webpages. I got some stories. I got videos. I'm all over the place. I need an NFT. >> And just think about LinkedIn, John. You could say that you graduated from Yale and didn't even graduate from Yale because nobody double checks that but in a wallet, if Yale actually sent that information in so you could verify it. It's that verification that's done over the blockchain, that immutable verification that I find to be very powerful. And John, we were just chatting with some companies earlier today that are Web 2.0 companies and they're like, "Oh, okay. All this is just for people? It's just for consumers?" And I was like, "No, this is for B2B. You've got to start thinking about this as a company." So for example, if you're a company today, how are you going to entice users to let you see some of their data? How are you going to look at ownership when it might be done via a dow and maybe a part of a piece of art, a part of a company, a part of real estate, like Parcel who you guys are going to talk to later on. Look at how that is going to change the world. It's going to change the way funds are raised. It's going to change the way you buy carbon credits, the way you buy art. If you're a consumer company, think about games and endgame economics. People are now playing game that money is real and your brand could be positioned. Have you thought about that? >> Yeah, I think that point you mentioned earlier about Twitter being the user, you had some personal connection, we didn't monetize it. Now with Web 3.0, you own it. One of the things that I see happening and it's coming out a lot of the Unstoppable interviews as well as what we're seeing in the marketplace is that the communities are part owners of the talent of whether it's an artist, a music artist, could be theCube team. The communities are part of the fabric of the overall group ownership. So you're starting to see you mentioned dows, okay? It's one kind of it. So as users become in control of their data and owning it, they're also saying, "Hey I want to be part of someone else." Artists are saying, " Be my stockholder. Own my company." >> That's right. >> So you start to see ownership concept not just be about the individual, it's about the groups. >> Right. And it's about companies too. So I'm hoping that as part of our Unstoppable Women of Web 3.0, we do have several companies who have joined us that are what I would say, traditionally Web 2.0 companies, trying to go over the chasm into Web 3.0. And I do think it's really important that companies of all types and sizes start looking at the implication of that ownership model and what that does. So for example, it's a silly one, but a simple one. I bought a Lazy Lion. It was actually part of my signing bonus, which is also interesting. My signing bonus was an NFT and now my Lazy Lion, I now own that Lazy Lion but the artist also gets a potential percentage of that. I can put my Lazy Lion on a t-shirt. I could name a store after my Lazy Lion because now it's mine. I own it. I own that asset. And now myself and the artists are teamed together. We're like a joint venture together. It's fascinating new models and there are so many of them. After ETHDenver, I was reading some of the key takeaways. And I think the biggest key takeaway was that this space is moving so fast with so much new information that you really have to pick one or two things and just go really deep so that you really understand them versus trying to go so wide that you can't understand everything at one time and to keep up it's a mission today to keep up. >> That interesting example about the Lazy Lion, the artist in relationship with you, that's a smart contract. There's no law firm doing that. It's the blockchain. Disintermediation is happening. >> It's trustless. Back to those five things we talked about. It's on the blockchain, it's decentralized at least partially, it's a digital identity, it's financially beneficial to you and it's trustless. That's what that is. It's a smart contract. There's no in between >> Can't change. It's immutable. Can't hack. Once it's on the blockchain, you're good to go. Sandy, well, congratulations. Great to see you. Unstoppable Women of Web3, WOW3. Great acronym. We're going to support you. We're going to put you on our March 8th site we're putting together. Great to have you on. Congratulations and thanks for sharing the big news. >> Thank you so much, John. Great to be on. >> Okay, this is theCube coverage of Unstoppable Domain partner showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host, here with Sandy Carter. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone welcome to theCube special presentation of the Unstoppable Domains partner showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCube. We have here, Cube alumni, Sandy Carter, SVP and channel chief of Unstoppable Domains. Sandy, great to see you. Congratulations on your new assignment. Exciting new company, and thanks for coming on for the showcase. >> Well, thank you, John. It's so fun to always be here with you through all my companies, it's really great. Thanks for having me. >> Well, it's been pretty amazing what's going on in the world right now. We just had the past Super Bowl which is the biggest event in the world around advertising, a lot of Web 3.0, crypto, blockchain, decentralized applications. It's here, it's mainstream. We've talked off camera many times around the shifts in technology, cloud computing. We're now with Web 3.0 and some are even saying Web 4.0. (Sandy laughs) A lot of technology programmers, people who are building new things are all in the Web 3.0 world. It's really going mainstream. So what's your view on that? I see you're in it too. You're leading it. >> I am in it too. And it's so exciting to be at the verge of the next technology trend that's out there. And I'm really excited about this one, John because this is all about ownership. It's about members not users. It's quite fascinating to be honest. >> What is Web 3.0? What is Web 3.0? Define it for us 'cause you have a good knack for putting things in the perspective. People want to know what does this Web 3.0? What does it mean? >> Okay, great. That's a great question. In fact, I have just a couple of slides because I'm a visual learner. So I don't know if you guys could pop up just a couple of slides for us. So first to me, Web 3.0 is really all about this area of ownership and that's whether it's in gaming or art or even business applications today. In fact, let me show you an example. If you go to the next slide, you will see like with Twitter, and John, you and I were there, I was the first person to onstage announce that we were going to do tweets during a major event. And of course I started on Twitter back in 2008, pretty early on. And now the valuation of Twitter is going up, I got a lot of value and I helped to attract a lot of those early users. But my value was really based on the people, building my network, not based on that monetary valuation. So I really wasn't an owner. I was a user of Twitter and helped Twitter to grow. Now, if you go with me to the next slide you'll see just a little bit more about what we're talking about here and I know this is one of your favorites. So Web 1.0 was about discovery. We discovered a lot of information. Web 2.0 was about reading the information but also contributing with that two-way dialogue with social but Web 3.0 is now all about membership, not being a user but being a member and therefore having an ownership stake in the power of what's coming. And I think this is a big differential, John, if I had to just nail one thing. This would be the big differential. >> That's awesome. And I love that slide because it goes to the progression. Most people think of web 1.0 data, the worldwide web, web pages, browsers, search engines, Web 2.0, better interfaces. You got mobile, you got social networks. And then it got messy, bots and misinformation, users of the product being used by the companies. So clearly Web 3.0 is changing all that and I think the ownership thing is interesting because you think about it, we should own our data. We should have a data wallet. We should have all that stored. So this is really at the heart of what you guys are doing. So I think that's a great way to put it. I would ask you what's your impression when people you talk to in the mainstream industry that aren't in Web 3.0 that are coming in, what's their reaction? What do they think? What do they see? >> Well, a lot of what I see from Web 2.0 folks is that they don't understand it, first of all. They're not sure about it. And I always like to say that we're in the early days of Web 3.0. So we're in that dial up phase. What was that? Was that AOL? Remember that little that they used to make? >> (laughs) You've got mail. >> Yeah, you've got mail. That's right. That's where we are today with Web 3.0. And so it is early days and I think people are looking for something they can hang their hat on. And so one of the things that we've been working on are what would be the elements of Web 3.0? And if you could take me to one more slide and this will be my last slide, but again, I'm a very visual person. I think there are really five basic assumptions that Web 3.0 really hangs its hat on. The first is decentralization, or I say at least partially decentralized because today we're building on Web 2.0 technology and that is okay. Number two is that digital identity. That identity you just talked about, John where you take your identity with you. You don't have identity for Twitter, an identity for LinkedIn, an identity for a game. I can take my identity today, play a game with it, bank with it, now move on to a Metaverse with it, the same identity. The other thing we like to say is it's built on blockchain and we know that blockchain is still making a lot of improvements but it's getting better and better and better. It's trustless, meaning there's no in between party. You're going direct, user, member to institution, if you would. So there's no bank in between, for example. And then last but not least, it's financially beneficial for the people involved. It's not just that network effect that you're getting, it's actually financially beneficial for those folks. All five of those give us that really big push towards that ownership notion. >> One thing I would point out, first of all, great insight, I would also add and and love to get your reaction to it, and this is a great lead into the news, but there's also a diversity angle because this is a global phenomenon, okay? And it's also a lot of young cultural shift happening with the younger generation, but also technologists from all ages are participating and all genders. Everything's coming together. It's a melting pot. It's a global... This is like the earth is flat moment for us. This is an interesting time. What's your reaction to them? >> Absolutely and I believe that the more diverse the community can be, the more innovative it will be. And that's been proven out by studies, by McKenzie and Deloitte and more. I think this is a moment for Web 3.0 to be very inclusive. And the more inclusive that Web 3.0 is, the bigger the innovation and the bigger the power and the bigger that dream of ownership will become a reality. So I'm 100% with you on the diversity angle for sure. >> So big new news tomorrow launching. This is super exciting. First of all, I love the acronym, but I love the news. Take us through the big announcement that you're having. >> Yeah. So John, we are so excited. We have over 55 different companies joining together to form Unstoppable Women of Web 3.0, or we call it WOW3. Unstoppable WOW3. And the mission is really clear and very inclusive. The first is that we want to make Web 3.0 accessible for everyone. The second is we don't want to just say we want it accessible for everyone, we want to help with that first step. We're going to be giving away $10 million worth of domains from Unstoppable which we believe is that first step into Web 3.0. And then we're going to be action oriented. We don't want to just say we're going to help you get started or just say that Web 3.0 is accessible, we're going to launch education, networking, and events. So for example, we've got our first in person event that will occur at South by Southwest. Our first virtual event will occur on March 8th which is International Women's Day and there'll be two components of it. One is an hour YouTube Live so that people can come in and ask questions and then we've got a 24 hour Twitter space. So almost every half an hour or every hour on the hour, you're going to have these amazing women talk to you about what is DeFi? What is minting? What is Web 3.0 all about? Why gaming in Web 3.0? I mean, it's just going to be phenomenal. And in that we want to support each other as we're moving forward. This whole concept of from the very beginning, we want Web 3.0 to be diverse. >> And I want to also point out that you've got some activities on the March 8th International Women's Day but it's always every day in this community because it's a community. So this whole idea of community inclusion continues every day. Talk about those activities you're having on March 8th. Can you share what's happening on International Women's Day? >> Yeah, so first we're going to have a YouTube Live where we're going to go in detail into what is Web 3.0? What is DeFi? What is an NFT and why do they exist? Then we're going to have this 24 hour Twitter spaces where we've got all these different guest speakers from the 55 different companies that are supporting the initiative. We're also going to launch a list of the 100 most inspirational women of Web 3.0. We're going to do that twice a year. And we decided John not to do the top women, but the women that are inspirational, who are pioneering the trail, who are having an impact. And so we want it to be a community. So it's 100 of the most inspirational women of Web 3.0. We're also setting up a Web 3.0 Women's Speakers Bureau. So I cannot tell you, John, how many time people will call me up and they'll be like, "We really want you to speak here." And when I really get down to it, they really want me because I'm a woman that can speak about Web 3.0 but there are so many women who can do this. And so I wanted to have a place where everybody could come and see how many different diverse people we have that could speak out this. >> Yeah, and that's a great thing because there are a lot of women who can speak on this. They just have to have their voices found. So there's a lot of discovery in that format. Is there any plans to go beyond? You mentioned some workshops, what other things... Can you give another quick highlight of the things else you're doing post the event? >> Yeah, so one of the big things post the event is working with Girls in Tech, and I know you know Adriana. We are going to host on their platform. They have a platform for mentoring. We're going to host a track for Web 3.0 and during International Women's Day, we're going to auction off some NFTs that will contribute to that mentoring platform. So we've got folks like Lazy Lions and Bella and Deadheads that are going to donate NFTs. We'll auction those off and then that will enable the ongoing platform of Girls in Tech to have that mentoring that will be available for the next generation. We'll also do events, both virtually through Twitter spaces and other means as well as in-person events. I just mentioned at South by Southwest which I'm really looking forward to. We're going to have our first in-person event on March the 12th. It's going to be a brunch. A lot of the women told me, John, that they go to all these Web 3.0 or crypto events and everything's like a frat party in the evening. And they're like, "Why can't we just have a nice brunch and sit down and talk about it?" (John laughs) So at South by Southwest that is exactly what we're going to do. We're going to have a brunch and we're going to sit down and talk about it with all of these companies. And John, one of the things that's amazing to me is that we have over 55 companies that are all coming together to support this initiative. To me, that was just overwhelming. I was hoping to get about 20 companies and so far we have 55. So I'm feeling so excited and so empowered by what I see as the potential for this group. >> Yeah, well, first of all, congratulations. That's a really great thing you're doing. If you need place on theCube to post those videos, if you can get copies, we'd be glad to share them as well 'cause it's super important to get all the great minds out there that are working on Web 3.0 and have them showcased. I got to ask you now that you're in the trenches now, doing all this great work. What are some of the buzzwords that people should know about in Web 3.0? You mentioned to five main pillars as well as the ownership, the paradigm shift, we got that. What are some of the buzzword that people should know about? How would you rank those? >> Well, I think there are a couple. Let's see. I mean, one is if you think about it, what is a decentralized application? Some people call them Dapps. Dapps, you'll hear that a lot. And a decentralized application just means that you are leveraging and using multiple forms. There's no centralization of the back end. So everything is decentralized or moving around. Another is the gas fee. This comes up a lot, many people think, "Oh yeah, I put gas in my car." But a gas fee in Web 3.0 is you're actually paying for those decentralized computers that you're using. So in a centralized land, a company owns those computers. In a decentralized land, since you're using all these different assets, you've got to pay for them and that's what the gas fee is for. The gas fee is to pay for those particular types of solutions. And many of these terms that we're talking about minting, what is an NFT, we'll be explaining all of these terms on International Women's Day in that 24 hour Twitter space as well. >> We'll look forward to that Twitter space. We'll share as well. In the Web 3.0 world, when you look at it, when you look at what Unstoppable's doing, it's a paradigm shift. You laid it out there. What is the bottom line? What's the most practical thing people are doing with the domains? 'Cause it is definitely headroom in terms of capability, single sign on, you own your own data, integrating into wallet and decentralized applications and creating this new wave just like the web. More web pages, better search. More pages, the search has to get better, flywheel kicking in. What's the flywheel for Unstoppable? >> Well, I think the flywheel is the really around digital identity. It's why I came to Unstoppable because I believe that the data about you should be owned by you and that identity now travels with you. It's your wallet, it's your healthcare data, it's your educational records, and it's more. So in the future, that digital identity is going to become so much more important than it is today. And oh my gosh, John, it's going to be used in so many different ways that we can't even imagine it now. So for me, I think that digital identity and it really puts that ownership right in the hands of the members, not in anyone else's hands, a company, a government, et cetera. It puts the ownership of that data in your hands. >> I just love these big waves, these shifts, because you mentioned healthcare. Imagine an NFT is that sign on where you don't have to worry about all these HIPAA regulations. You can just say, "Here's me. Here's who I'm trusted." And they don't even know my name, but they know it's trusted. >> And everything just trickles down from there. >> That's right. >> And all the databases are called. It's all immutable. I got my private key. It unlocks so much potential in a new way. Really is amazing. >> I agree. And even just think about education. I was with Arizona State University and so my daughter took some classes at a community college and I wanted to get those classes and have those credits available for her university. How hard is that? Just to get that education and everything is paper and I had to physically sign, I had to physically mail it. It was pretty crazy. So now imagine that your digital identity contains all of your degrees, all of the skills that you've gone through all of your experiences, John. You told me before the show, all different experiences that you have that I didn't know about. I'm sure a lot of people didn't. What if you had that piece of you that would be available that you could use it at any time. >> It's locked in LinkedIn. There's a silo. Again, I'm a huge believer in silo busting going on. This new generation is not going to tolerate experiences that don't fit their mission. They want to have liberation on their data. They don't want to be the product. They want to have the value. >> That's right. >> And then broker that value for services and be able to be horizontally scalable and pop around from place to place without logging in again or having that siloed platform have the data like LinkedIn. You mentioned my resume's on basically LinkedIn, but I got webpages. I got some stories. I got videos. I'm all over the place. I need an NFT. >> And just think about LinkedIn, John. You could say that you graduated from Yale and didn't even graduate from Yale because nobody double checks that but in a wallet, if Yale actually sent that information in so you could verify it. It's that verification that's done over the blockchain, that immutable verification that I find to be very powerful. And John, we were just chatting with some companies earlier today that are Web 2.0 companies and they're like, "Oh, okay. All this is just for people? It's just for consumers?" And I was like, "No, this is for B2B. You've got to start thinking about this as a company." So for example, if you're a company today, how are you going to entice users to let you see some of their data? How are you going to look at ownership when it might be done via a dow and maybe a part of a piece of art, a part of a company, a part of real estate, like Parcel who you guys are going to talk to later on. Look at how that is going to change the world. It's going to change the way funds are raised. It's going to change the way you buy carbon credits, the way you buy art. If you're a consumer company, think about games and endgame economics. People are now playing game that money is real and your brand could be positioned. Have you thought about that? >> Yeah, I think that point you mentioned earlier about Twitter being the user, you had some personal connection, we didn't monetize it. Now with Web 3.0, you own it. One of the things that I see happening and it's coming out a lot of the Unstoppable interviews as well as what we're seeing in the marketplace is that the communities are part owners of the talent of whether it's an artist, a music artist, could be theCube team. The communities are part of the fabric of the overall group ownership. So you're starting to see you mentioned dows, okay? It's one kind of it. So as users become in control of their data and owning it, they're also saying, "Hey I want to be part of someone else." Artists are saying, " Be my stockholder. Own my company." >> That's right. >> So you start to see ownership concept not just be about the individual, it's about the groups. >> Right. And it's about companies too. So I'm hoping that as part of our Unstoppable Women of Web 3.0, we do have several companies who have joined us that are what I would say, traditionally Web 2.0 companies, trying to go over the chasm into Web 3.0. And I do think it's really important that companies of all types and sizes start looking at the implication of that ownership model and what that does. So for example, it's a silly one, but a simple one. I bought a Lazy Lion. It was actually part of my signing bonus, which is also interesting. My signing bonus was an NFT and now my Lazy Lion, I now own that Lazy Lion but the artist also gets a potential percentage of that. I can put my Lazy Lion on a t-shirt. I could name a store after my Lazy Lion because now it's mine. I own it. I own that asset. And now myself and the artists are teamed together. We're like a joint venture together. It's fascinating new models and there are so many of them. After ETHDenver, I was reading some of the key takeaways. And I think the biggest key takeaway was that this space is moving so fast with so much new information that you really have to pick one or two things and just go really deep so that you really understand them versus trying to go so wide that you can't understand everything at one time and to keep up it's a mission today to keep up. >> That interesting example about the Lazy Lion, the artist in relationship with you, that's a smart contract. There's no law firm doing that. It's the blockchain. Disintermediation is happening. >> It's trustless. Back to those five things we talked about. It's on the blockchain, it's decentralized at least partially, it's a digital identity, it's financially beneficial to you and it's trustless. That's what that is. It's a smart contract. There's no in between >> Can't change. It's immutable. Can't hack. Once it's on the blockchain, you're good to go. Sandy, well, congratulations. Great to see you. Unstoppable Women of Web3, WOW3. Great acronym. We're going to support you. We're going to put you on our March 8th site we're putting together. Great to have you on. Congratulations and thanks for sharing the big news. >> Thank you so much, John. Great to be on. >> Okay, this is theCube coverage of Unstoppable Domain partner showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host, here with Sandy Carter. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage, day one wrap-up. I'm John Furrier, with Dave Vellante. We have Jerry Chen, special guest who's been with us every year on theCUBE since inception. Certainly every AWS re:Invent, nine years straight. Jerry Chen, great to see you for our guest analyst's wrap up VC general partner, Greylock partners, good to see you. >> John, Dave, it's great to see you guys. Thanks for having me again. It wouldn't be re:Invent without the three of us sitting here and we missed last year, right, because of COVID. So we have to make up for lost time. >> John: We did a virtual one- >> Dave: we did virtual stuff= >> John: wasn't the same as in-person. >> Dave: Definitely not the same. >> Jerry: Not the same thing. So, it's good to see you guys again in person, and less than 6 feet apart. >> Cheers, yeah. >> And 7,000 people here, showing that the event's still relevant. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> Some people would kill for those numbers, it's a bad year for Amazon, down from 60,000. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> So, ecosystem's booming. Okay, let's get to it. Day one in the books, new CEO, new sheriff in town, his name's Adam Selipsky. Your take? >> Well, Adam's new, but he's old, right? Something, you know, like something new, something old, something blue, right? It's so, Adam was early Amazon, so he had that founding DNA. Left, you know, CEO of Tableau, acquired by Salesforce, came back few months ago. So I think it was a great move, because one, he's got the history and culture under Jassy, so he's definitely the Bezos Jassy tree of leadership, but yet he's been outside the bubble. Right? So he actually knows what it means to run a company not on the Amazon platform. So, I think Adam's a great choice to lead AWS for what we call it, like maybe act two, right? Act one, the first X years with Jassy, and maybe this is the second act under Adam. >> Yeah. And he's got- and he was very technical, hung around all the techies, James Hamilton, DeSantis, all the engineers, built that core primitives. Now, as they say, this cloud next gen's here, act two, it's about applications. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> Infrastructure as code is in place. Interesting area. Where's the growth come from? So, look, you know, the ecosystem has got to build these super clouds, or as you say, Castles on the Cloud, which you coined, but you brought this up years ago, that the moats and the value has to be in there somewhere. Do you want to revise that prediction now that you see what's coming from Selipsky? >> Okay, well, so let's refresh. Greylock.com/castles has worked out, like we did, but a lot of thought leadership and the two of you, have informed my thinking at Castles in the Cloud, how to compete against Amazon in the cloud. So you'd argue act one, the startup phase, the first, you know, X years at Amazon was from 2008 to, you know, 2021, the first X years, building the platform, digging the moats. Right? So what did you have? You have castle the platform business, economies of scale, which means decreasing marginal costs and natural network effects. So once the moat's in place and you had huge market share, what do you for act two, right? Now the moats are in place, you can start exploring the moats for I think, Adam talked about in your article, horizontal and verticals, right? Horizontal solutions up the stack, like Amazon Connect, CRM solutions, right? Horizontal apps, maybe the app layer, and verticals, industrials, financials, healthcare, et cetera. So, I think Jassy did a foundation of the castle and now we're seeing, you know, what Adam and his generation would do for act two. >> So he's, so there's almost like an act one A, because if you take the four hyperscalers, they're about, maybe do 120 billion this year, out of, I don't know, pick a number, it's many hundreds of billions, at least in infrastructure. >> Jerry: Correct. >> And those four hyperscalers growing at 35% collectively, right? So there's some growth there, but I feel like there's got to be deeper business integration, right? It's not just about IT transformation, it's about deeper- So that's maybe where this Connect like stuff comes, but are there enough of those? You know, I didn't, I haven't, I didn't hear a lot of that this morning. I heard a little bit, ML- >> Jerry: Sure. >> AI into Connect, but where's the next Connect, right? They've got to do dozens of those in order to go deeper. >> Either, Dave, dozens of those Connects or more of those premise, so the ML announcement was today. So you look at what Twilio did by buying Segment, right? Deconstruct a CRM to compete against Adam Selipsky's old acquire of Salesforce.com. They bought Segment, so Twilio now has communicates, like texting, messaging, email, but all the data come from Segment. >> Dave: With consumption-based pricing. >> With consumption-based pricing. So, right? So that's an example of kind of what the second act of cloud looks like. It may not look like full SaaS apps like Salesforce.com, but these primitives, both horizontally vertically, because again, what does Amazon have as an asset that other guys don't? Install based developers. Developers aren't going to necessarily build or consume SaaS apps, but they're going to consume things like these API's and primitives. And so you look around, what's cloud act two look like? It may not be VM's or containers. It may be API's like Stripe and Billing, Twilio messaging, right? Concepts like that. So, we'll see what the next act at cloud looks like. And they announced a bunch of stuff today, serverless for the data analytics, right? So serverless is this move towards not consuming raw compute and storage, but APIs. >> What about competition? Microsoft is nipping at the heels of AWS. >> Dave: John put them out of business earlier today. [John and Dave Laugh] >> No, I said, quote, I'll just- let me rephrase. I said, if Amazon goes unchecked- >> Jerry: Sure. >> They'll annihilate Microsoft's ecosystem. Because if you're an ISV, why wouldn't you want to run on the best platform? >> Jerry: Sure. >> Speeds and feeds matter when you have these shifts of software development. >> Jerry: You want them both. >> So, you know, I mean, you thought about the 80's, if you were at database, you wanted the best processor. So I think this Annapurna vertical integrated stacks are interesting because if my app runs better and I have a platform, prefabricated or purpose-built platform, to be there for me, I'm going to build a great SaaS app. If it runs faster and it cost less, I'm going to flop to Amazon. That's just, that's my prediction. >> So I think better changes, right? And so I think if you're Amazon, you say cheaper, better, faster, and they're investing in chips, proprietary silicon to run better, faster, their machine learning training chips, but if you're Azure or Google, you got to redefine what better is. And as a startup investor, we're always trying to do category definition, right? Like here's a category by spin. So now, if you're Azure or Google, there are things you can say that are better, and Google argued their chips, their TensorFlow, are better. Azure say our regions, our security, our enterprise readiness is better. And so all of a sudden, the criteria "what's better" changes. So from faster and cheaper to maybe better compliance, better visibility, better manageability, different colors, I don't know, right? You have to change the game , because if you play the same game on Amazon's turf, to your point, John, it- it's game over because they have economies of scale. But I think Azure and Google and other clouds, the superclouds, or subclouds are changing the game, what it means to compete. And so I think what's going on, just two more seconds, from decentralized cloud, being Web 3 and crypto, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, to Edge compute, what Cloudflare are doing with R2 and storage, they're trying to change the name of the game. >> Well, that's right. If you go frontal against Amazon, you're got to get decimated. You got to move the goalposts for better. And I think that's a good way to look at it, Dave. What does better mean? So that's the question that's on the table. What does that look like? And I think that's an unknown, that's coming. Okay, back to the start-ups. Category definition. That's an awesome term. That to me is a key thing. How do you look at what a category is on your sub- on your Castles of the Cloud, you brought up how many categories of- >> Jerry: 33 markets and a bunch of submarkets, yeah. >> Yeah. Explain that concept. >> So, we did Castle in the Clouds where my team looked at all the services offered at Azure, Google, and Amazon. We downloaded the services and recategorized them to like, 30 plus markets and a bunch of submarkets. Because, the reason why is apples to apples, you know, Amazon, Google, Azure all have databases, but they might call them different things. And so I think first things first is, let's give developers and customers kind of apples to apples comparisons. So I think those are known markets. The key in investing in the cloud, or investing in general, is you're either investing in budget replacement, replacing a known market, cheaper, better database, to your point, or a net new market, right? Which is always tricky. So I think the biggest threat to a lot of the startups and incumbents, the biggest threat by startups and incumbents, is either one, do something cheaper, better in a current market, or find a net new market that they haven't thought about yet. And if you can win that net new market before the rest, then that's unbelievable. We call it the, you know, the blue ocean strategy, >> Dave: Is that essentially what Snowflake has done, started with cheaper, better, and now they're building the data cloud? >> Jerry: I think there's- it's evolution, correct. So they said cheaper, better. And the Castle in the Cloud, we talked about, they actually built deep IP. So they went a known category, data warehouses, right? You had Teradata, Redshift, Snowflake cheaper, better, faster. And now let's say, okay, once you have the customers, let's change the name of the game and create a data cloud. And it's TBD whether or not Snowflake can win data cloud. Like we talked about Rockset, one of my investments that's actually move the goalpost saying, oh, data cloud is nice, but real time data is where it's at, and Snowflake and those guys can't play in real time. >> Dave: No, they're not in a position to play in real time data. >> Jerry: Right. >> Dave: I mean, that's right. >> So again, so that's an example of a startup moving the goalpost on what previously was a startup that moved the goalpost on an incumbent. >> Dave: And when you think about Edge, it's going to be real-time AI inferencing at the Edge, and you're right, Snowflake's not set up well at all for that. >> John: So competition wise, how do the people compete? Because this is what Databricks did the same exact thing. I have Ali on the record going back years, "Well, we love Amazon. We're only on Amazon." Now he's talking multicloud. >> So, you know, once you get there, you kind of change your tune cause you've got some scale, but then you got new potential entrants coming in, like Rockset. >> Jerry: Correct. >> So. >> Dave: But then, and if you add up the market caps of just those two companies, Databricks and Snowflake, it's much larger than the database market. So this, we're defining new markets now. >> Jerry: I think there's market cap, especially Snowflake that's in the public market, Databricks is still private, is optimism that there's a second or third act in the database space left to be unlocked. And you look at what's going on in that space, these real-time analytics or real-time apps, for sure there's optimism there. But, but to John's point, you're right, like you earn the right to play the next act, but it's tricky because startups disrupt incumbents and become incumbents, and they're also victims their own success, right? So you're- there's technical debt, there's also business model debt. So you're victims of your own business model, victims of your own success. And so what got you here may not get you to the next phase. And so I think for Amazon, that's a question. For Databricks and Snowflake, that's a question, is what got them here? Can they play to the next act? And look, Apple did it, multiple acts. >> John: Well, I mean, I think I- [Crosstalk] >> John: I think it's whether you take shortcuts or not, if you have debt, you make it a little bit of a shortcut bet. >> Jerry: Yeah. >> Okay. That's cool. But ultimately what you're getting at here is beachhead thinking. Get a beachhead- >> Jerry: Correct. >> Get in the market, and then sequence to a different position. Classic competitive strategy, 101. That's hard to do because you want to win the beachhead- >> I know. >> John: And take a little technical debt and business model debt, cheat a little bit, and then, is it not fortified yet? So beachhead to expansion is the question. >> Jerry: That's every board meeting, John and Dave, that we're in, right? It's called you need a narrow enough wedge to land. And it is like, I don't want the tip of the spear, I want the poison on the tip of a spear, right? [Dave and John Laugh] >> You want, especially in this cloud market, a super focused wedge to land. And the problem is, as a founder, as investor, you're always thinking about the global max, right? Like the ultimate platform winner, but you don't get the right to play the early- the late innings if you don't make it out of the early innings. And so narrow beachhead, sharp wedge, but you got to land in a space, a place of real estate with adjacent tan, adjacent markets, right? Like Uber, black cars, taxi's, food, whatever, right? Snowflake, data warehouse, data cloud. And so I think the key with all startups is you'll hit some ceiling of market size. Is there a second ramp? >> Dave: So it's- the art is when to scale and how fast to scale. >> Right. Picking when, how fast, in which- which best place, it was tough. And so, the best companies are always thinking about their second or third act while the first act's still going. >> John: Yeah. And leveraging cloud to refactor, I think that's the key to Snowflake, was they had the wedge with data warehouse, they saw the position, but refactored and in the cloud with services that they knew Teradata wouldn't use. >> Jerry: Correct. >> And they're in. From there, it's just competitive IP, crank, go to market. >> And then you have the other unnatural things. You have channel, you have installed base of customers, right? And then you start selling more stuff to the same channel, to the same customers. That's what Amazon's doing. All the incumbent's do that. Amazon's got, you know, 300 services now, launching more this week, so now they have channel distribution, right? Every credit card for all the developers, and they have installed base of customers. And so they will just launch new things and serve the customers. So the startups had to disrupt them somehow. >> Well, it's always great to chat with Jerry. Every year we discover and we riff and we identify, in real time, new stuff. We were talking about this whole vertical, horizontal scale and kind of castles early on, years ago. And now it's happened. You were right. Congratulations. That's a great thesis. There's real advantages to build on a cloud. You can get the- you can build a business there. >> Jerry: Right. >> John: That's your thesis. And by the way, these markets are changing. So if you're smart, you can actually compete. >> Jerry: I think you beat, and to Dave's earlier point, you have to adapt, right? And so what's the Darwin thing, it's not the strongest, but the most adaptable. So both- Amazon's adapt and the startups who are the most adaptable will win. >> Dave: Where are you, you guys might've talked about this, where do you stand on the cost of goods sold issue? >> Jerry: Oh, I think everything's true, right? I think you can save money at some scale to repatriate your cloud, but again, Wall Street rewards growth versus COGS, right? So I think you've got a choice between a dollar of growth versus a dollar reducing COGS, people choose growth right now. That may not always be the case, but at some point, if you're a company at some scale and the dollars of growth is slowing down, you definitely have to reduce the dollars in cost. And so you start optimizing cloud costs, and that could be going to Amazon, Azure, or Google, reducing COGS. >> Dave: Negotiate, yeah. >> John: Or, you have no visibility on new net new opportunities. So growth is about new opportunities. >> Correct. >> If you repatriating things, there's no growth. >> Jerry: It's not either, or- >> That's my opinion. >> Jerry: COGS or growth, right? But they're both valid, definitely, so you can do both. And so I don't think- it's what's your priorities, you can't do everything at once. So if I'm a founder or CEO or in this case investor, and I said, "Hey, Dave, and John, if you said I can either save you 25 basis points in gross margin, or I can increase another 10% top line this year", I'm going to say increase the top line, we'll deal with the gross margin later. Not that it's not important, but right now the early phase- >> Priorities. >> Jerry: It's growth. >> Yeah. All right, Jerry Chen, great to see you. Great to have you on, great CUBE alumni, great guest analyst. Thanks for breaking it down. CUBE coverage here in Las Vegas for re:Invent, back in person. Of course, it's a virtual event, we've got a hybrid event for Amazon, as well as theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, you're watching the leader in worldwide tech coverage. Thanks for watching. (Gentle music)