(upbeat techno music) >> From San Francisco, it's theCUBE. Covering Sumo Logic Illuminate 2018. Now, here's Jeff Frick. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at Sumo Logic Illuminate, at the Hyatt, at the airport in Burlingame. We're excited to have, from Virgin Money Digital Bank, two great guests, we love to get customers on, Andy Makings, he is the head of Cloud operations, Andy, good to see you and Julian Howe, head of Cloud Business Office. >> Hi >> So welcome gentlemen. >> Thank you. >> Great to be here. >> How're you liking the weather? >> It's great. >> Improvement already. (laughing) >> Improvement already, alright. So let's jump into it Virgin Money Digital Bank, what is that exactly? >> Yep. >> Do you want to take that? >> Oh okay, I've been there longer, yeah. 2017, start of 2017, they decided to build a completely new digital bank, for Virgin Money, as an offshoot to the core bank, Virgin Money Brand, using the same banking license with our partner, TenX Future Technologies in London. So building a bank from scratch, whole new business model, data driven, data analytics, Big Data DevOps Agile, whole new business model completely. >> So just starting in 2017 so, you're still pretty early on the journey? >> Yeah, so still in the build phase, pilot phase, and then go live next year. >> So A, what are the key drivers to that decision? That's a pretty innovative decision, which doesn't surprise us, right? Virgin always seems to be kind of out on the leading edge but, when the conversation happened, what is a hundred percent digital bank? How is that different than a traditional bank, besides obvious things, like branches, but, what are some of the motivations, some of the attributes? >> I think they wanted to leverage the brand, of course, Virgin, 'cause there's a lot of new digital bank start ups, which they're competing against. So they thought , let's do it from scratch, let's do it how we want it, make it truly focus on data, driving customer value through the data. And they thought, we can compete because we've got this big Virgin Digital Brand, that we can really use to get customer base. >> Right. >> Yeah, so I think that was the big driver, compared to what they're currently doing, with the bank, the core bank, and what they want to do with the brand new bank. >> Wow. But it's not co-mingled so you're not leveraging existing data, existing clients, or all those things, or are you seeing kind of a transfer over? >> Eventually we may, but that's the future. Yeah, the first thing is to launch the digital bank and then we'll see where the Big Data platform, that we're putting in, drives. Yeah, it makes sense to economies of scale to obviously migrate the rest of the customers. >> So when does it launch, what's the timeframe? >> 2019. >> 2019? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Okay, so you're here at Sumo Logic, what role is Sumo playing in this big project? >> Well, so from my perspective, so I'm looking at, so Andy's been involved in, as he said, for the last 12 months, in terms of building the new platform, really making sure that we're bringing on the bleeding edge technologies, and tech partners and, certainly from my perspective, it's around making sure that I understand who we're going with, what technologies we're using, and how we can utilize those technologies, going forward, to really make sure that our customers are getting the best service from the new digital proposition. >> Right. >> And Sumo Logic is absolutely part of that. >> And are you building your own cloud eco system, in the back, or are you using one of the public clouds? >> Yeah, I'm using Amazon, Amazon public cloud. >> Using Amazon public cloud. >> Yeah, so my team's responsible for building the Big Data platform, TenX Future Technologies are responsible for building the API based banking platform, and then we take streams of data into the data and analytics platform that we're building. So Sumo, obviously, is our logging platform, and we'll then use more and more features of Sumo as they release, so, logging initially, everything goes into Sumo, for the whole of the Amazon platform that we're building, and the data lake, and then what we'll do later on is we just started beta work to do the SIM implementation for security and then we're revolutionizing the SOCs, security operation center, as well to be cloud based, sort of driven because, obviously traditionally, we've been hosted in data centers. >> Right, so you're using it now as part of your build-out process, but then you'll be using it again obviously in your operations as well. >> Absolutely. And yeah and some of the messaging out from this morning with the keynote around just the business intelligence and customer metrics and data that Sumo Logic can almost sort of draw in and present back. >> Right. >> I think that's really powerful. >> Right, are there certain kind of customer features that you look forward to offering that you just can't do in the traditional bank or is it more a lot of kind of marginal improvements because you've got the data? >> It's more the agility, I think. >> Yeah. >> Agility of build. Agility of delivering new business features so it's business driven. As I say we're doing proper DevOps, proper agile across the business in the new digital bank. >> Right. >> Whereas before it's more traditional in the core bank, as we call it. >> Right. >> So it's silos of teams, sand storage, yeah, systems administrators, legacy, so. >> And it is, yeah, that transition into a digital business, as well so how we're set up and how we're aligned, not just the technologies that we're looking to use and the companies we're looking to partner with. >> Right, so on the data driven, you know, being a data driven company in this new bank, I'm fascinated by some of the financing options that are there now, I mean these are some of the pure digital plays that you've been talking about where they're making loan decisions based on some really strange factors that you would think, no way could you make this loan based on a traditional kind of analysis, you would never do it. >> Yep. >> And yet they're pulling some data somewhere that's telling them that this is actually a good loan, so I assume those are the types of things you're looking forward to? >> Yeah, of course. So when we take the feeds from obviously TenX, the platform that TenX is providing with the new customers but you also take feeds from the existing data warehouses, yeah and then we build business models on top of that in the data lake with the data science team and they then get pushed back in to feed scoring models and things like that across the digital platform. And that will just grow and grow. There'll be more and more models as the business gets more mature. >> Right, any super big hurdles that you didn't anticipate that you got to get over to make this happen? >> Technically no, I think more about business transformation. Yeah, we're still part of a bigger bank that holds a bank licensing so a lot of it's around education of cloud, public cloud so that's been key, we've done quite a lot of presentations to the core bank. Especially around the security teams and managing expectations and what they need to look at and how dynamic. We're using LAMDA a lot, so they've got to get their head around how all that works and yeah, what they're doing with that and how dynamic it is. We can spin out thousands of servers in minutes. That's been a bit of a hurdle. >> Right. >> But I think we're getting there and I think the next few months as we build more of the platform we'll definitely get there better. >> Yeah. >> And I think you hit the nail on the head around agility. It's being agile enough and being able to keep pace with, this, the innovation you see with companies like Sumo Logic. >> Right so it's like the parent Virgin Bank kind of looking over the shoulder, going, hey, hey, hey, what're you got? How do I get some of that? >> No, they're fully involved, obviously. They're excited, same as we are, by the prospect of what we're doing because it should drive more customers. >> Well I was going to say, is there going to be some spillover, I would imagine, in terms of innovation and features and those types of things as well? >> Yeah. >> I know already some of the tools we're putting in, we've gone through the pain of going past the security validation and put in, they're now looking and go, well actually that's really useful for hybrid cloud if you want to move some of the existing workloads into public cloud. If we want to, say, leverage marketing or leverage log platforms or leverage monitoring platforms? >> Right. >> As well as the automation we're putting in, we can easily, all the designs have been built to bring in other business units and business areas within the current business. >> Yeah, I'm curious was there push back on using a public cloud for this all 100% digital bank? How did that decision finally get sorted out? I mean, I think generally we're past it for a lot of people obviously in our business but I would imagine, there's still some stodgy guys that are, you know, wearing very expensive suits in mahogany row that are probably like, are you kidding me, you know? >> Yeah, there's still a lot of compliance to sort out. Obviously we've done some, there's more to do as we go nearer to production. >> Yeah. >> There's been some hurdles, we'd be lying if we said there wasn't. >> Right. >> But there's definitely been some hurdles but I think we're getting there and of course, other additional banks have done it in Amazon as well. >> Exactly. >> You're following that model and you need to get through the regulatory compliance. >> And it's about having, making decisions based on facts and there's increasing numbers of facts around how secure and how successful and the benefits that cloud platforms give you. >> Right, it took a while for the facts to kind of out weigh the hype, right? Not so much the hype but the scare. >> The scare is thing, yeah, once you can show, you know we did a BAC late last year to show that we could do it and it was secure and it went through more pen testing than most of the current products would go through, purely because of that scare. >> Right, right. >> They were scared of going to public cloud. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> So when again is the anticipated launch date? I won't hold you to it, I'm not-- >> Yeah, 2019. >> Yeah so next year. >> 2019, yeah. >> Yeah, 2019. >> Sometime between January 1 and December 30th? >> Yeah, yeah. (laughing) >> I think it's Q1, I think officially it's Q1. >> Alright. >> Early rather than late. >> Early rather than later, yes. >> It's a great story, I mean an old bank coming out with 100% digital bank. >> Yeah. >> It'd be an interesting story to watch unfold, we'll look forward to it. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Alright Andy, Julian, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day and I hope you enjoy the rest of your time almost in San Francisco, you got to get up there, at least one, right? >> Yeah, we're going to try to go there, yeah. >> Alright he's Andy, he's Julian, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We're at Sumo Logic Illuminate 2018. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

(fast-paced instrumental music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to the special CUBE conversation, here at theCUBE Studio in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier, Co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media and host of theCUBE for our special CMO signal series we're launching. Really talkin' to the top thought leaders in marketing, in the industry, really pushing the envelope on a lot of experimentation. And Robson Grieve, Chief Marketing Officer of New Relic, is here. Welcome to this CUBE conversation. >> Thank you, excited to be with you. >> So, New Relic is a very progressive company. You have a founder who's very dynamic, writes code, takes sabbaticals, creates product, he's a musician, is prolific. That kind of sets the tone for your company, and you guys are also state of the art DevOps company. >> Robson: Yes. >> So, pressure's on to be a progressive marketer, you guys are doing that. >> Yeah, I think some of the great things about that DevOps culture are process wise it allows us to experiment with different ways of working. And we've obviously talked a little bit about Agile and the way a different way of thinking about how you actually do the work can change the way you output the kind of things you're willing to make, the way the teams work together. And the degree to which you can integrate marketing and sales, really, around shorter time frames, faster cycle times. And so, we have a great culture around that. We also have a really great culture around experimentation. I think that's one of the biggest things that Lou talks a lot about is, let's try things, let's look for experiments, let's see where we can find something unexpected that could be a big success, and let's not be afraid for something to go wrong. If you can do that, then you have way higher odds of finding the Geo TenX. >> And you guys are also in the analytics, you also look at the signal, so you're very data driven, and I'll give you a prop for that, give you a plug. (Robson laughing) New Relic, a very data driven company. But today we're seeing a Seed Changer, a revolution in the tech industry. Seeing signals like cryptocurrency, blockchain, everyone's goin' crazy for this. They see disruption in that. You've got AI and a bunch of other things, so, and you got the Cloud computing revolution, so all of this is causing a lot of horizontally, scalable change, which is breaking down the silos of existing systems. >> Yeah. >> But, you can't just throw systems away. You have systems in marketing. So, how are you dealing with that dynamic, because we're seeing people going, hey, I just can't throw away my systems, but I got to really be innovative and agile to the real-time nature of the internet now, while having all those analytics available. >> Yeah. >> How do you tackle that, that issue? >> Yeah, there's a couple ways to think about analytics. Number one is, what do you need to know in real-time to make sure things are working and that your systems are up and running and operating effectively? And that runs through everything from upfront in web experiences and trial experiences, that kind of thing. Through to how our leads and customers progressing through a funnel, as they get passed around the various parts of a company. But then the second approach we take to data is, after all that's happened, how can we look backwards on it and what patterns emerge when you look at it over the scale of longer period of time. And so, that's the approach today. You're right, you can't just everything and throw it out and start over again, 'cause some startups stop by with a really cool idea. But, you have to be aggressive about experimentation. I think that's the, back to that big idea that we talked about experimentation. We are trying out a lot of different things all the time. Looking for things that could be really successful. Of course, Intercom is one that we started to experiment with a little bit for in product communications and we've expanded over time as we found it more and more useful. And, so that's not, we haven't taken and just ripped something else out of it, made some giant bet on something brand new. We've tried it, we've gotten to know it, and then we found ways to apply that. We're doing that with a number of different technologies right now. >> Yeah, you're in a very powerful position, you're Chief Marketing Officer, which has to look over a lot of things now, and certainly with IT and Cloud. You're essentially in the middle of the fabric of the organization. Plus, people are knockin' on your door to sell you stuff. >> Yeah. (laughing) >> So, what is-- >> That's happened. (laughing) >> It happens all the time, he's got the big budget. >> What are they saying to you? Who's knockin' on your door, right now? Who's peppering you. Who's tryin' to get on your calendar? Who's bombarding you? Where are you saying, Hey, I'm done with that, or Hey, I'm lookin' for more of that. How do you deal with that tension, 'cause I'm sure it must be heavy. >> Yeah, I think there is definitely a lot of optionality in the market, for sure. I think there's a new wave of martech vendors. Many of whom are sitting right in between sales ops and marketing ops. That's a layer we're really interested in. Systems that can help us better understand the behavior of sale's reps, and how they're using things that we're making, and then systems that you can better understand, indications of prospect intent. >> So, funnel and pipeline, or those kinds of things? >> Yeah, we think about it more from the context of authentic engagement. And so, we don't want to apply too much of a-- >> Structure to it. >> Structure, a sales structure to it. We want to try to follow the customer's intent through the process, 'cause the best prospect is someone who is authentically engaged in trying to find a solution to their problem. And so, if we can avail ourselves to people in a thoughtful, and creative, and authentic way, when they need us, when they're trying to solve that problem, then I think that they can become much more successful prospects. >> I love your angle on agile marketing. I think that's table steaks, not that you got to behave that way, and I'd love to get your thoughts, I'll get your thoughts later on the management style and how you make that happen. But, you mentioned engagement, this is now the new Holy Grail. There's a lot of data behind it, and it could be hidden data, it could be data decentralized all over the place. This is the hottest topic. How do you view engagement as a CMO, and the impact to the organization? What are you lookin' for, what's the key premise for your thesis of getting engagement? >> It's really the number one, two, and three topic we're talking about right now, and we think about it on the content side. How do we get ourselves really producing a constant stream of content that has value to people? That either helps them solve a problem right now, or helps them think about an architectural issue in a different way. We're trying to invest more and more technical resources in people who can produce things that are relevant to all the different kinds of users that we have. DevOps people, SREs, our traditional developer customers. We want to go deep and be super relevant at a content level for them. But then once they start to spend time with us, we want to then have a progressive way to pull them deeper and deeper into our community. And so, the things that we can do, something's in digital for that, but then often there's a pop off line, and we do a lot of workshops, a lot of education. >> Face-to-face? >> Face-to-face, where we're in communities, we look at a map at the start of the year and say, where do we have big user communities, and then we drop events into those places where we take our educators and our product experts and get customers to share with each other. And that becomes a really great platform to put them together and have them help each other, as well as learn more about what our product does. >> So, it sounds like you're blending digital with face-to-face? >> Robson: Yeah, absolutely. >> That's a key part of your strategy? >> Key part is to make sure that we're getting time and attention from the people who are making decisions, and what technologies they're going to buy, but also that we're really investing time in the people who are using it in their everyday lives to do their job better. That's a really-- >> Give some examples of outcomes that you've seen successful from that force. That's a really unique, well unique is pretty obvious if you think about it, but some people think digital is the Holy Grail, let's go digital, let's lower cost. But, face-to-face can be expensive, but you're blending it. What's the formula and what are some of the successes that you've seen as a result. >> Yeah, we tend to try to create events that are good for a very specific audience. So, if you think about a targeting formula that you would use in digital that will make digital really efficient, that same idea works really well for an event. So, if you got a user community that's really good at doing one thing with your product and you feel like if they knew a few more things that they could get better. Then we help them really advance to the next level, and so we run certification programs, where we'll pull together a group of confident users and help them get to the next level. And things like that allow us to make a really targeted event that allows us to reach out to a group and move them to a higher level of competency. To have competency focus is a big deal. Can we help you get better at your job? But then communities, is the other big one. Can we help you connect with people who are doing the same things? Solving the same kinds of problems and are interested in the same topics as you are. >> It sounds like the discovery path of the user, the journey, your potential. >> Yeah, it's important to us for sure. >> And content sounds like it's important too. >> It helps with your engagement. How you dealing with the content? Is that all on your properties? How about off property measurement? How do you get engagement for off property? >> Yeah, we're experimenting a lot in that area, of off property. I think we've had tons of success inside our own website and our blogs, and those kinds of-- >> You guys do pop out a lot of content, so it's content rich. >> Yes, we definitely have a lot, we hopefully, our attitude is, we want to turn our company inside out, so we want to take all of our experts-- >> Explain that, that's important topic, so, you guys are opening up what? >> We have got customer support people, we have technical sales, and technical support engineers, we've got marketing people who are thought leaders in Cloud and other architecture topics. We really want to take all the expertise that they've got and we want to share it with our community. >> John: How do you do that, through forums, through their Twitter handles? >> Through all of the above, really. Through their Twitter handles, through content that they write and produce through videos, through a podcast series that we run. We're really trying to expand as much as possible, but then inside our user help community, anytime somebody solves a problem for one customer, we want to add it to that-- >> Sounds like open-source, software. (laughing) >> From a knowledge perspective, that's really an important idea for us. >> Yeah, that's awesome. You worry about the risk. I like the idea of just opening it up. You're creating building blocks of knowledge, like code. It's almost like an open-source software, but no, it's open knowledge. >> We think if we can help people get really successful at the work they're trying to do, that it's going to do great things for us as a brand. >> What's the rules of the road, because obviously you might have some hay makers out there. Some employee goes rogue, or you guys just trusting everyone, just go out and just do it. >> Well, it's constant effort to distribute publishing rights and allow people to take more and more ownership of it, and to maintain some editorial controls, because I think quality is a big thing. It's probably a bigger concern for us then somebody going rogue. At some level, if that happens to you, you can't stop it. >> So, is this a new initiative or is it progression? >> It's been ongoing for awhile. It's progression of an effort we started probably 18 months ago, and it's a wonderful way for an engineering team, and a product management team, and a marketing team to get together around a really unified mission as well. So our content project is just one of those things that I think really pulls us together inside the company in a really fun way as well. >> It's interesting, you seeing more and more what social peers want to talk to each other and not the marketing guy, and say, Hey, get the Kool-Aid, I like the product, I want to talk to someone to solve my problem. >> Want to have a real conversation about it, and I think that's our job, is to not think of it as marketing, but to think of it as just facilitating a real conversation about how our product works for somebody. >> I'd love to talk about leadership as the Chief Marketer for New Relic in the culture that you're in, which is very cool to be in on the front-end, in the front lines doing cool things. What do you do? How do you manage yourself, how do you manage your time? What do you do, how do you organize the troops, how do you motivate them? What's your management style for this marketing in the modern era? >> I think, number one, we're trying to create an organization that is full of opportunities for people, so it's something that we've done. I've been there for about two and a half years, and we've really looked hard for people who have tons of potential and finding great things to work on. On new projects, and then let them try out ideas that they've got. So, if they can own an idea, give it a shot, and even if it doesn't work, they'll learn a bunch from the process of trying. >> What are the craziest ideas you've heard from some of your staff? (laughing) >> Oh boy, you know a lot of them involve video. There's always a great idea for a video that's risky. And we've made-- >> So the Burger King one with Net Neutrality going around the web is the funniest video I've seen all week. >> Robson: Yeah, yeah. >> Could be risky, could be also a double-edged sword, right? >> Yeah, video is one of those places where you have to check yourself a little bit, 'cause it could be a great idea, and so sometimes you have to actually make it and look at it, and say, would we publish this or not? And, yeah, so that's definitely the place to be. >> So common sense is kind of like your. >> Yeah, you start with common sense, for sure. And, I think we want to be a part of it being culturally responsible in Silicon Valley right now, is really making sure that we're attentive to making sure that we're putting in the right kind of workplace environment for people. And so, our content and the way we go to market has to reflect that as well, so there's a bunch of filters that you put on it, but you have to take risks and try to make things, and if they work great, and if they don't then the cost of that is less than. The cost of failure is so low in some of these things, so you just have to try. >> Well, you know, we're into video here at theCUBE. I have to ask you, do you see video more and more in the marketing mix and if so, how does that compare to old methods? We've seen the media business change and journalism, certainly on the analyst community. Who reads white papers? Maybe the do, maybe they don't. Or, how do they engage? What content formally do you see as state of the art engagement? Is is video, is it a mix, how do you view that? >> It's a mix, really. I think video's really powerful. And it can be great to tree topics and short form in a really powerful way. I think we can stretch it out a little bit in terms of how to and teaching and education also. But, there are times when other things like a white paper are still relevant. >> Yeah, they got to do their homework and get ready for the big test. >> Yes. >> How to install. (laughing) >> Exactly, yeah. >> Okay, big surprises for you in the industry, if you could look back and talk to yourself a few years ago and say, Wow, I didn't know that was going to happen, or I kind of knew this was going to be a trend we would be on. Where is the tailwinds, where's the headwinds in the industry as a marketer to be innovated, to be on the cutting edge, to deliver the value you need to do for your customers and for the company? >> Yeah, I think there's a bunch of great tailwinds organizationally and in the approach to work. And you talked about Agile. I think it's been a great thing to see people jump in and try to work in a different way. That's created tons of scale for a department like ours, where we're tryin' to go to more countries, and more places constantly. Having a better way to work, where we waste less effort, where we find problems and fix things way faster, has given us the chance to build leverage. And I think that's just that integration of engineering, attitudes, with marketing processes has been a, is an awesome thing. Everybody in our marketing department, or at least a lot of people have read the DevOps handbook, and we've got a lot of readers, so the devotes of that thought process that don't suit an engineering jobs. >> DevOps, Ethos, I think is going to be looked at as one of those things, that's a moment in history that has changed so much. I was just at Sundance Film Festival, and DevOps, Ethos is going to filmmaking. >> Robson: Yeah. >> And artistry with a craft and how that waterfall for the Elite Studios is opening up an amateur market in the Indy, so their Agile filmmakers and artists now doing cool stuff. So, it's going to happen. And of course, we love the infrastructures code. We'll talk about that all day long We love DevOps. (Robson laughing) So I got to ask you the marketing question. It will be a theme of my program of the CMO is, if I say marketing is code, infrastructure is code, enabled a lot of automation, some abstracted a way horizontally scaled, and new opportunities, created a lot of leverage, a lot of value, infrastructures code, created the Cloud. Is there a marketing as code Ethos, and what would that look like? If I would say, apply DevOps to marketing. If you could look at that, and you could say, magic wand. Give me some DevOps marketing, marketing as code. What would you have automated in a way that would be available to you? What would the APIs look like? What's your vision for that? >> What about the APIs, that's a good question. >> John: I don't think they exist yet, but we're fantasizing about it. (laughing) >> Yeah, I think the things that tend to slow marketing departments down really are old school, things like approvals. And how hard it is to get humans to agree on things that should be really easy. So, if the first thing you-- >> Provisioning an order. (laughing) >> The first thing you could do is just automate that system of agreeing that something's ready to go and send it out that I think you'd create so much efficiency in side marketing departments all over the world. Now that involves having a really great, and API's a great thought in that, because the expectations have to get matched up of what's being communicated on both sides, so we can have a channel on which to agree on something. That to me is-- >> Analytics are probably huge too. You want to have instant analytics. I don't care which database it came from. >> Yes, exactly. And that's the sense of DevOps and can use. But then you got some feedback on, did it work, was it the right thing to do, should we do more of it, should we fix it in some specific way? Yeah, I think that's-- >> I think that's an interesting angle, and the face-to-face thing that I find really interesting, because what you're doing is creating that face-to-face resource, that value is so intimate, and it's the best engagement data you can get is face-to-face. >> Yeah, I think it also allows us to build relationships to the point where we are getting invited into slack channels to help companies in real-time sometimes. I think there's a real-- >> So humanizing the company and the employees is critical. >> Yeah. >> You can't just be digital. >> Yes, it's a big deal. >> Awesome. Robson, thank so much for coming on theCUBE. The special CMO series. Is there a DevOps, can we automate away, what's going to automate, where's the value going to be in marketing? Super exciting, again, martech. Some are sayin' it's changing rapidly with the Cloud, AI, and all these awesome new technologies. What's going to change, that's what we're going to be exploring here on the CMO CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (upbeat instrumental music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose, California, it's theCUBE covering innovating to fuel the next decade of big data. Brought to you by Western Digital. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick, here with theCUBE. We are at the Western Digital Headquarters in San Jose, California. It's the Al-Mady Campus. A historic campus. It's had a lot of great innovation, especially in hard drives for years and years and years. This event's called Innovating to Fuel the Next Data Big Data. And we're excited to have a big brain on. We like to get smart people who's been watching this story for a while and will give us a little bit of historical perspective. It's John Rydning. He is the Research Vice President for Hard Drives for IEC. John, Welcome. >> Thank you, Jeff. >> Absolutely. So, what is your take on today's announcement? >> I think it's our very meaningful announcement, especially when you consider that the previous BIGIT Technology announcement for the industry was Helium, about four or five years ago. But, really, the last big technology announcement prior to that was back in 2005, 2006, when the industry announced making this transition to what they called at that time, "Perpendicular Magnetic Recording." And when that was announced it was kind of a similar problem at that time in the industry that we have today, where the industry was just having a difficult time putting more data on each disc inside that drive. And, so they kind of hit this technology wall. And they announced Perpendicular Magnetic Recording and it really put them on a new S curve in terms of their ability to pack more data on each disc and just kind of put it in some perspective. So, after they announce Perpendicular Magnetic Recording, the capacity per disc increased about 30% a year for about five years. And then over, really, a ten year period, increased about an average of about 20% a year. And, so today's announcement is I see a lot of parallels to that. You know, back when Perpendicular Magnetic Recording was announced, really they build. They increased the capacity per platter was growing very slowly. That's where we are today. And with this announcement of MAMR Technology the direction that Western Digital's choosing really could put the industry on a new S curve and putting in terms of putting more capacity, storage capacity on each one of those discs. >> It's interesting. Always reminds me kind of back to the OS in Microsoft in Intel battles. Right? Intel would come out with a new chip and then Microsoft would make a bigger OS and they go back and back and forth and back and forth. >> John: Yeah, that's very >> And we're seeing that here, right? Cuz the demands for the data are growing exponentially. I think one of the numbers that was thrown out earlier today that the data thrown off by people and the data thrown off by machines is so exponentially larger than the data thrown off by business, which has been kind of the big driver of IT spin. And it's really changing. >> It's a huge fundamental shift. It really is >> They had to do something. Right? >> Yeah, the demand for a storage capacity by these large data centers is just phenomenal and yet at the same time, they don't want to just keep building new data center buildings. And putting more and more racks. They want to put more storage density in that footprint inside that building. So, that's what's really pushing the demand for these higher capacity storage devices. They want to really increase the storage capacity per cubic meter. >> Right, right. >> Inside these data centers. >> It's also just fascinating that our expectation is that they're going to somehow pull it off, right? Our expectation that Moore's laws continue, things are going to get better, faster, cheaper, and bigger. But, back in the back room, somebody's actually got to figure out how to do it. And as you said, we hit these kind of seminal moments where >> Yeah, that's right. >> You do get on a new S curve, and without that it does flatten out over time. >> You know, what's interesting though, Jeff, is really about the time that Perpendicular Magnetic Recording was announced way back in 2005, 2006, the industry was really, already at that time, talking about these thermal assist technologies like MAMR that Western Digital announced today. And it's always been a little bit of a question for those folks that are either in the industry or watching the industry, like IDC. And maybe even even more importantly for some of the HDD industry customers. They're kind of wondering, so what's really going to be the next technology race horse that takes us to that next capacity point? And it's always been a bit of a horse race between HAMR and MAMR. And there's been this lack of clarity or kind of a huge question mark hanging over the industry about which one is it going to be. And Western Digital certainly put a stake in the ground today that they see MAMR as that next technology for the future. >> (mumbles words) Just read a quote today (rushes through name) key alumni just took a new job. And he's got a pin tweet at the top of his thing. And he says, "The smart man looks for ways "To solve the problem. "Or looks at new solutions. "The wise man really spends his time studying the problem." >> I like that. >> And it's really interesting here cuz it seems kind of obvious there. Heat's never necessarily a good thing with electronics and data centers as you mentioned trying to get efficiency up. There's pressure as these things have become huge, energy consumption machines. That said, they're relatively efficient, based on other means that we've been doing they compute and the demand for this compute continues to increase, increase, increase, increase. >> Absolutely >> So, as you kind of look forward, is there anything kind of? Any gems in the numbers that maybe those of us at a layman level are kind of a first read are missing that we should really be paying attention that give us a little bit of a clue of what the feature looks like? >> Well, there's a couple of major trends going on. One is that, at least for the hard drive industry, if you kind of look back the last ten years or so, a pretty significant percentage of the revenue that they've generated a pretty good percentage of the petabytes that they ship have really gone into the PC market. And that's fundamentally shifting. And, so now it's really the data centers, so that by the time you get to 2020, 2021, about 60 plus percent of the petabytes that the industry's shipping is going into data centers, where if you look back a few years ago, 60% was going into PCs. That's a big, big change for the industry. And it's really that kind of change that's pushing the need for these higher capacity hard drives. >> Jeff: Right. >> So, that's, I think, one of the biggest shifts has taking place. >> Well, the other thing that's interesting in that comment because we know scale drives innovation better than anything and clearly Intel microprocessors rode the PC boom to get out scale to drive the innovation. And, so if you're saying, now, that the biggest scale is happening in the data center Then, that's a tremendous force for innovation in there versus Flash, which is really piggy-backing on the growth of these jobs, because that's where it's getting it's scale. So, when you look at kind of the Flash hard drive comparison, right? Obviously, Flash is the shiny new toy getting a lot of buzz over the last couple years. Western Digital has a play across the portfolio, but the announcement earlier today said, you're still going to have like this TenX cost differentiation. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Even through, I think it was 20, 25. I don't want to say what the numbers were. Over a long period of time. You see that kind of continuing DC&E kind of conflict between those two? Or is there a pretty clear stratification between what's going to go into Flash systems, or what's going to hard drives? >> That's a great question, now. So, even in the very large HyperScale data centers and we definitely see where Flash and hard disk drives are very complimentary. They're really addressing different challenges, different problems, and so I think one of the charts that we saw today at the briefing really is something that we agree with strongly at IDC. Today, maybe, about 7% or 8% of all of the combined HDD SSD petabyte shipped for enterprise are SSD petabytes. And then, that grows to maybe ten. >> What was it? Like 7% you said? >> 6% to 7%. >> 6% to 7% okay. Yeah, so we still have 92, 93%, 94% of all petabytes that again are HDD SSD petabytes for enterprise. Those are still HDD petabytes. And even when you get out to 2020, 2021, again, still bought 90%. We agree with what Western Digital talked about today. About 90% of the combined HDD SSD petabytes that are shipping for enterprise continue to be HDD. So, we do see the two technologies very complementary. Talked about SSD is kind of getting their scale on PCs and that's true. They really are going to quickly continue to become a bigger slice of the storage devices attached to new PCs. But, in the data center you really need that bulk storage capacity, low cost capacity. And that's where we see that the two SSDs and HDDs are going to live together for a long time. >> Yeah, and as we said the conflict barrier, complimentary nature of the two different applications are very different. You need the big data to build the models, to run the algorithms, to do stuff. But, at the same time, you need the fast data that's coming in. You need the real time analytics to make modifications to the algorithms and learn from the algorithms >> That's right, yeah. It's the two of those things together that are one plus one makes three type of solution. Exactly, and especially to address latency. Everybody wants their data fast. When you type something into Google, you want your response right away. And that's where SSDs really come into play, but when you do deep searches, you're looking through a lot of data that has been collected over years and a lot of that's probably sitting on hard disc drives. >> Yeah. The last piece of the puzzle, I just want to you to address before we sign off, That was an interesting point is that not just necessarily the technology story, but the ecosystem story. And I thought that was really kind of, I thought, the most interesting part of the MAMR announcement was that it fits in the same form factor, there's no change to OS, there's no kind of change in the ecosystem components in which you plug this in. >> Yeah, that's right. It's just you take out the smaller drive, the 10, or the 12, or whatever, or 14 I guess is coming up. And plug in. They showed a picture of a 40 terabyte drive. >> Right. >> You know, that's the other part of the story that maybe doesn't get as much play as it should. You're playing in an ecosystem. You can't just come up with this completely, kind of independent, radical, new thing, unless it'S so radical that people are willing to swap out their existing infrastructure. >> I completely agree. It's can be very difficult for the customer to figure out how to adopt some of these new technologies and actually, the hard disk drive industry has thrown a couple of technologies at their customers over the past five, six years, that have been a little challenging for them to adopt. So, one was when the industry went from a native 512 by sectors to 4K sectors. Seems like a pretty small change that you're making inside the drive, but it actually presented some big challenges for some of the enterprise customers. And even the single magnetic recording technologies. So, it has a way to get more data on the disc, and Western Digital certainly talked about that today. But, for the customer trying to plug and play that into a system and SMR technology actually created some real challenges for them to figure out how to adopt that. So, I agree that what was shown today about the MAMR technology is definitely a plug and play. >> Alright, we'll give you the last word as people are driving away today from the headquarters. They got a bumper sticker as to why this is so important. What's it say on the bumper sticker about MAMR? It says that we continue to get more capacity at a lower cost. >> (chuckles) Isn't that just always the goal? >> I agree. >> (chuckles) Alright, well thank you for stopping by and sharing your insight. Really appreciate it. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> Alright. Jeff Frick here at Western Digital. You're watching theCUBE! Thanks for watching. (futuristic beat)