>>Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to the Cube. I am Savannah Peterson here, coming to you from Detroit, Michigan. We're at Cuban Day three. Such a series of exciting interviews. We've done over 30, but this conversation is gonna be extra special, don't you think, John? >>Yeah, this is gonna be a good one. Griffon Labs is here with us. We're getting the conversation of what's going on in the industry management, watching the Kubernetes clusters. This is large scale conversations this week. It's gonna be a good one. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'm very excited. He's also got a fantastic Twitter handle, twitchy. H Please welcome Richie Hartman, who is the director of community here at Griffon. Richie, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks >>For having me. >>How's the show been for you? >>Busy. I, I mean, I, I, >>In >>A word, I have a ton of talks at at like maintain a thing and like the covering board searches at the TLC panel. I run forme day. So it's, it's been busy. It, yeah. Monday, I didn't have to run anything. That was quite nice. But there >>You, you have your hands in a lot. I'm not even gonna cover it. Looking at your bio, there's, there's so many different things that you're working on. I know that Grafana specifically had some announcements this week. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. We had quite a few, like the, the two largest ones is a, we now have a field Kubernetes integration on Grafana Cloud. So our, our approach is generally extremely open source first. So we try to push stuff into the exporters, like into the open source exporters, into mixes into things which are out there as open source for anyone to use. But that's little bit like a tool set, not a ready made solution. So when we talk integrations, we actually talk about things where you get this like one click experience, You log into your Grafana cloud, you click, I have a Kubernetes, which probably most of us have, and things just work like you in just the data. You have to write dashboards, you have to write alerts, you have to write everything to just get started with extremely opinionated dashboards, SLOs, alerts, again, all those things made by experts, so anyone can use them. And you don't have to reinvent the view for every single user. So that's the one. The other is, >>It's a big deal. >>Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. It is. It, we, we has, its heavily in integrations course. While, I mean, I don't have to convince anyone that perme is a DD factor standard in everything. Cloudnative. But again, it's, it's, it's sometimes a little bit hard to handle or a little bit not easy to get into. So, so smoothing this, this, this path onto onboarding yourself onto this stack and onto those types of solutions. Yes. Is what a lot of people need. Course, if you, if you look at the statistics from coupon, and we just heard this in the governing board session yesterday. Yeah. Like 60% of the people here are first time attendees. So there's a lot of people who just come into this thing and who need, like, this is your path. This is where you should be going. Or at least if you want to go, go there. This is how to get there. >>Here's your runway for takeoff. Yes. Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And I love that you, you had those numbers. I was curious. I, I had seen on Twitter, speaking of Twitter, I had seen, I had seen that, that there were a lot of people here coming for the first time. You're a community guy. Are we at an inflection point where this community is about to continue to scale? >>That's a very good question. Which I can't really answer. So I mean, >>Obviously I bet you're gonna try. >>I covid changed a few things. Yeah. Probably most people, >>A couple things. I mean, you know, casually, it's like such a gentle way of putting that, that was >>Beautiful. I'm gonna say yes, just to explode. All these new ERs are gonna learn Prometheus. They're gonna roll in with a open, open metrics, open telemetry. I love it, >>You know, But, but at the same time, like Cuban is, is ramping back up. But if you look at the, if you look at the registration numbers between Valencia Andro, it was more or less the same. Interesting. Which, so it didn't go onto this, onto this flu trajectory, which it was on like, up to, up to 2019. I expect this to take up again. But also with the economic situation, everything, I, I don't think >>It's, I think the jury's still out on hybrid. I think there's a lot, lot more hybrid. Let's see how the projects are gonna go. That's what I think it's gonna be the tell sign. How many people are in participating? How are the project's advancing? Some of the momentum, >>I mean, from the project level, Most of this is online anyway. Of course. That's how open source, right. I've been working for >>Ages. That's >>Cause you don't have any trouble budget or, or any office or, It's >>Always been that way. >>Yeah, precisely. So the projects are arguably spearheading this, this development and the, the online numbers. I I, I have some numbers in my head, but I'm, I'm not a hundred percent certain to, but they're higher for this time in Detroit than in volunteer as far somewhere. Cool. So that is growing and it's grown in parallel, which also is great. Cause it's much more accessible, much more inclusive. You don't have to have a budget of at least, let's say, I don't know, two to five k to, to fly over the pond and, and attend this thing. You can just do it from your home. So that is, that's a lot more inclusive. And I expect this to, to basically be a second more or less orthogonal growth, growth path. But the best thing about coupon is the hallway track. I'm just meeting people, talking to people and that kind of thing is not really possible with, >>It's, it's great to see people >>In person. No, and it makes such a difference. I mean, yeah. Even and interviewing people in person too. I mean, it does a, it's, it's, and, and this, this whole, I mean cncf, this whole community, every company here is community first. It's how these projects come to be. I think it's awesome. I feel like you got something you're saying to say, Johnny. >>Yeah. And I love some of the advancements. Rich Richie, we talked last time about, you know, open telemetry, open metrics. You're involved in dashboards. Yeah. One of the themes here is ease of use, simplicity, developer productivity. Where do you see the ease of use going from a project standpoint? For me, as you mentions everywhere, it's pretty much, it is, it's almost all corners of the world. Yep. And new people coming in. How, how are you making it easier? What's going on? Give us the update on that. >>So we also, funnily enough at precisely this topic in the TC panel just a few hours ago, about ease of use and about how to, how to make things easier to, to handle how developers currently, like if they just want to get into the cloud native seen, they have like, like we, we did some neck and math, like maybe 10 tools at least, which you have to be somewhat proficient in to just get started, which is honestly horrendous. Yeah. Course. Like with a server, I just had my survey install my thing and it runs, maybe I need a database, but that's roughly it. And this needs to change again. Like it's, it's nice that everything is, is un unraveled. And you have, you, you, you, you don't have those service boundaries which you had before. You can do all the horizontal scaling, you can do all the automatic scaling, all those things that they're super nice. But at the same time, this complexity, which used to be nicely compartmentalized, was deliberately broken up. And so it's becoming a lot harder to, to, like, we, we need to find new ways to compartmentalize this complexity back to, to human understandable levels again, in particular, as we keep onboarding new and new and new, new people, of course it's just not good use of anyone's time to, to just like learn the basics again and again and again. This is something which should be just compartmentalized and automated away. We're >>The three, We were talking to Matt Klein earlier and he was talking about as projects become mature and all over the place and have reach and and usage, you gotta work on the boring stuff. Yes. And when it's boring, that means you have success. Yes. But then you gotta work on the plumbing. What are some of the things that you guys are working on? Because people are relying on the product. >>Oh yeah. So for with my premises head on, the highlight feature is exponential or native or spars. Histograms. There's like three different names for one single concept. If you know Prometheus, you ha you currently have hard bucket boundaries where I say my latency is lower equal two seconds, one second, a hundred milliseconds, what have you. And I can put stuff into those histogram buckets accordingly to those predefined levels, which is extremely efficient, but like on the, on the code level. But it's not very nice for the humans course you need to understand your system before you're able to, to, to choose good cutoff points. And if you, if you, if you add new ones, that's completely fine. But if you want to actually change them, course you, you figured out that you made a fundamental mistake, you're going to have a break in the continue continuity of your observability data. And you cannot undo this in, into the past. So this is just gone native histograms. On the other hand, allow me to, to, okay, I'm not going to get get into the math, but basically you define a single formula, which there comes a good default. If you have good reasons, then you can change it. But if you don't, just don't talk, >>The people are in the math, Hit him up on Twitter. Twitter, h you'll get you that math. >>So the, >>The thing is people want the math, believe me. >>Oh >>Yeah. I mean we don't have time, but hit him up. Yeah. >>There's ProCon in two weeks in Munich and there will be whole talk about like the, the dirty details of all of the stuff. But the, the high level answer is it just does what people would expect it to do. And with very little overhead, you become, you get highly, highly or high resolution histograms, which is really important for a lot of use cases. But this is not just Prometheus with my open metrics head on the 2.0 feature, like the breaking highlight feature of Open Metrics 2.0 will be you guested precisely the same with my open telemetry head on. Low and behold the same underlying technology is being put or has been put into open telemetry. And we've worked for month and month and month and even longer between all different projects to, to assert that we have one single standard which is actually compatible with each other course. One of the worst things which you can have in the cloud ecosystem is if you have soly different things and they break in subtly wrong ways, like it's much better to just not work than to break in a way, which is just a little bit wrong. Of course you won't figure this out until it's too late. So we spent, like with all three hats, we spent insane amounts of time on making this happen and, and making this nice. >>Savannah, one of the things we have so much going on at Cube Con. I mean just you're unpacking like probably another day of cube. We can't go four days, but open time. >>I know, I know. I'm the same >>Open telemetry >>Challenge acceptance open. >>Sorry, we're gonna stay here. All the, They >>Shut the lights off on us last night. >>They literally gonna pull the plug on us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They've done that before. It's not the first time we go until they kick us out. We love, love doing this. But Open telemetry is got a lot of news too. So that's, We haven't really talked much about that. >>We haven't at >>All. So there's a lot of stuff going on that, I won't call it boring. That's like code word's. That's cube talk for, for it's working. Yeah. So it's not bad, but there's a lot of stuff going on. Like open telemetry, open metrics, This is the stuff that matters cuz when you go in large scale, that's key. It's just what, missing all the, all the stuff. >>No, >>What are we missing? What are people missing? What's going on in the show that you think that's not actually being reported on? I mean it's a lot of high web assembly for instance got a lot >>Of high. Oh yeah, I was gonna say, I'm glad you're asking this because you, you've already mentioned about seven different hats that you wear. I can only imagine how many hats are actually in your hat cabinet. But you, you are someone with your, with your fingers in a lot of different things. So you can kind of give us a state of the union. Yeah. So go ahead. Let's talk about >>It. So I think you already hit a few good points. Ease of use is definitely one of them. And, and improving the developer experience and not having this like a value of pain. Yeah. That is one of the really big ones. It's going to be interesting cause it is boring. It is janitorial and it needs a different type of persona. A lot of, or maybe not most, but a large fraction of developers like the shiny stuff. And we could see this in Prometheus where like initially the people who contributed this the most where like those restless people who need to fix that one thing, this is impossible, are going to do it. Which changed over the years where the people who now contribute the most are off the janitorial. Like keep things boring, keep things running, still have substantial changes. But but not like more on the maintenance level. >>Yeah. The maintainers. I was just gonna bring that >>Up. Yeah. On the, on the keep things boring while still pushing 'em forward. Yeah. And the thing about ease of use is a lot of this is boring. A lot of this is strategy. A lot of this is toil. A lot of this takes lots of research also in areas where developers are not really good at, like UX for example, and ui like most software developers are really bad at those cause they just think differently from normal humans, I guess. >>So that's an interesting observation that you just made. I we could unpack that on a whole nother show as well. >>So the, the thing is this is going to be interesting for the open source scene course. This needs deliberate investment by companies who assign people to those projects and say, okay, fix that one thing or make it easier to use what have you. That is a lot easier with, with first party products and projects from companies cuz they can invest directly into the thing and they see much more of a value prop. It's, it's kind of normal by now to, to allow developers or even assigned developers onto open source projects. That's not so much the case for the tpms, for the architects, for the UX and your I people like for the documentation people that there's not as much awareness of that this is also driving value for everyone. Yes. And also there's not much as much. >>Yeah, that's a great point. This whole workflow production system of open source, which has grown and keeps growing and we'll keep growing. These be funded. And one of the things we were talking earlier in another session about is about the recession potentially we're hitting and the global issues, macroeconomics that might force some of these projects or companies not to get VC >>Funding. It's such a theme at the show. So, >>So to me, I said it's just not about VC funding. There's other funding mechanisms that's community oriented. There's companies participating, there's other meccas. Richie, if you could have your wishlist of how things could progress an open source, what would you want to see happen in terms of how it's, how things are funded, how things are executed. Cuz developers are going to run businesses. Cuz ultimately if you follow digital transformation to completion, it and developers aren't a department serving the business. They are the business. And that's coming fast. You know, what has to happen in your opinion, if you had the wish magic wand, what would you, what would you snap your fingers to make happen? >>If I had a magic wand that's very different from, from what is achievable. But let, let's >>Go with, Okay, go with the magic wand first. Cause we'll, we'll, we'll we'll riff on that. So >>I'm here for dreams. Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah. I mean I, I've been in open source for more than two, two decades, but now, and most of the open source is being driven forward by people who are not being paid for those. So for example, Gana is the first time I'm actually paid by a company to do my com community work. It's always been on the side. Of course I believe in it and I like doing it. I'm also not bad at it. And so I just kept doing it. But it was like at night on the weekends and everything. And to be honest, it's still at night and in the weekends, but the majority of it is during paid company time, which is awesome. Yeah. Most of the people who have driven this space forward are not in this position. They're doing it at night, they're doing it on the weekends. They're doing it out of dedication to a cause. Yeah. >>The commitment is insane. >>Yeah. At the same time you have companies mostly hyperscalers and either they have really big cloud offerings or they have really big advertisement business or both. And they're extracting a huge amount of value, which has been created in large part elsewhere. Like yes, they employ a ton of developers, but a lot of the technologies they built on and the shoulders of the giants they stand upon it are really poorly paid. And there are some efforts to like, I think the core foundation like which redistribute a little bit of money and such. But if I had my magic wand, everyone who is an open source and actually drives things forwards, get, I don't know, 20% of the value which they create just magically somehow. Yeah. >>Or, or other companies don't extract as much value and, and redistribute more like put more full-time engineers onto projects or whichever, like that would be the ideal state where the people who actually make the thing out of dedication are not more or less left on the sideline. Of course they're too dedicated to just say, Okay, I'm, I'm not doing this anymore. You figure this stuff out and let things tremble and falter. So I mean, it's like with nurses and such who, who just like, they, they know they have something which is important and they keep doing it. Of course they believe in it. >>I think this, I think this is an opportunity to start messaging this narrative because yeah, absolutely. Now we're at an inflection point where there's a big community, there is a shared responsibility in my opinion, to not spread the wealth, but make sure that it's equally balanced and, and the, and I think there's a way to do that. I don't know how yet, but I see that more than ever, it's not just come in, raid the kingdom, steal all the jewels, monetize it, and throw some token token money around. >>Well, in the burnout. Yeah, I mean I, the other thing that I'm thinking about too is it's, you know, it's, it's the, it's the financial aspect of this. It's the cognitive load. And I'm curious actually, when I ask you this question, how do you avoid burnout? You do a million different things and we're, you know, I'm sure the open source community that passion the >>Coach. Yeah. So it's just write code, >>It's, oh, my, my, my software engineering days are firmly over. I'm, I'm, I'm like, I'm the cat herer and the janitor and like this type of thing. I, I don't really write code anymore. >>It's how do you avoid burnout? >>So a i I didn't curse ahead burnout a few years ago. I was not nice, but that was still when I had like a full day job and that day job was super intense and on top I did all the things. Part of being honest, a lot of the people who do this are really dedicated and are really bad at setting boundaries between work >>And process. That's why I bring it up. Yeah. Literally why I bring it up. Yeah. >>I I I'm firmly in that area and I'm, I'm, I don't claim I have this fully figured out yet. It's also even more risky to some extent per like, it's, it's good if you're paid for this and you can do it during your work time. But on the other hand, if it's so nice and like if your hobby and your job are almost completely intersectional, it >>Becomes really, the lines are blurry. >>Yeah. And then yeah, like have work from home. You, you don't even commute anything or anymore. You just sit down at your computer and you just have fun doing your stuff and all of a sudden it's deep at night and you're still like, I want to keep going. >>Sounds like God, something cute. I >>Know. I was gonna say, I was like, passion is something we all have in common here on this. >>That's the key. That is the key point There is a, the, the passion project becomes the job. But now the contribution is interesting because now yeah, this ecosystem is, is has a commercial aspect. Again, this is the, this is the balance between commercialization and keeping that organic production system that's called open source. I mean, it's so fascinating and this is amazing. I want to continue that conversation. It's >>Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is great. Richard, this entire conversation has been excellent. Thank you so much for joining us. How can people find you? I mean, I give em your Twitter handle, but if they wanna find out more about Grafana Prometheus and the 1700 things you do >>For grafana grafana.com, for Prometheus, promeus.io for my own stuff, GitHub slash richie age slash talks. Of course I track all my talks in there and like, I don't, I currently don't have a personal website cause I stop bothering, but my, like that repository is, is very, you find what I do over, like for example, the recording link will be uploaded to this GitHub. >>Yeah. Great. Follow. You also run a lot of events and a lot of community activity. Congratulations for you. Also, I talked about this last time, the largest IRC network on earth. You ran, built a data center from scratch. What happened? You done >>That? >>Haven't done a, he even built a cloud hyperscale compete with Amazon. That's the next one. Why don't you put that on the >>Plate? We'll be sure to feature whatever Richie does next year on the cube. >>I'm game. Yeah. >>Fantastic. On that note, Richie, again, thank you so much for being here, John, always a pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for tuning in to us here live from Detroit, Michigan on the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson and here's to hoping that you find balance in your life this weekend.

>>from around the >>globe. It's the >>cube with coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2021 >>virtual brought to >>you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Hello, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 Cloud Native Con 21 Virtual, I'm John Ferrier Host of the Cube. We're here with a great gas to break down one of the hottest trends going on in the industry and certainly around cloud native as this new modern architecture is evolving so fast. Richard Hartman, director of community at Griffon, a lab's involved with Prometheus as well um, expert and fun to have on and also is going to share a lot here. Richard, thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Thank you >>know, we were chatting before we came on camera about the human's ability to to handle all this new shift uh and the and the future of observe ability is what everyone has been talking about. But you know, some say the reserve abilities, just network management was just different, you know, scale Okay, I can buy that, but it's got a lot more than that. It involves data involves a new architecture, new levels of scale that cloud native has brought to the table that everyone is agreeing on. It scales their new capabilities, thus setting up new architectures, new expectations and new experiences are all happening. Take us through the future of observe ability. >>Mhm. Yes, so um 11 of the things which many people find when they onboard themselves onto the cloud native space is um you can scale along different and new axis, which you couldn't scale along before, uh which is great. Of course, it enables growth, it enables different operating models, it enables you to choose different or more modern engineering trade offs, like the underlying problems are still the same, but you just slice and dice your problems and compartmentalize your services differently. But the problem is um it becomes more spread out and the more classic tooling tends to be built for those more classic um setups and architectures as your architecture becomes more malleable and as you can can choose and pick how to grow it along with which access a lot more directly and you have to um that limits the ability of the humans actually operating that system to understand what is truly going on. Um Obviously everyone is is fully fully all in on A. I. M. L. And all those things. But one of the dirty secrets is you will keep needing domain specific experts who know what they're doing and what that thing should look like, what should be working hard to be working. But enable those people to actually to actually understand the current state of the system and compare this to the desired state of the system. Is highly nontrivial in particular, once you have not machine lifetimes of month or years which he had before, which came down to two sometimes hours and when you go to Microsoft to surveillance and such sometimes even into sub seconds. So a lot of this is about enabling this, this this higher volume of data, this higher scale of data, this higher cardinality of what what you actually attach as metadata on your data and then still be able to carry all this and makes sense of it at scale and at speed because if you just toss it into a data lake and do better analysis like half a day later no one cares about it anymore. It needs to be life it needs or at least the largest part of it needs to be life. You need to be able to alert right now if something is imminently customer facing. >>Well, that's awesome. I love totally agree this new observe ability horizontally scalable, more surface area, more axes, as you point out, changes the data equation on the automation plays a big role in mention machine learning and ai great, great grounds for that. I gotta ask you just well before we move on to the next topic around this is that the most people that come from the old world with the tooling and come from that old school vendor mentality or old soup architecture, old school architecture tend to kind of throw stones at the future and say, well the economics are all wrong and the performance metrics. So I want to ask you so I assume that we believe we do believe because assume that's going to happen. What is the economic picture? What's the impact that people are missing? When you look at the benefits of what this system is going to enable the impact? Specifically whether it's economics, productivity, efficient code, what are some of the things that maybe the VCS or other people in the naysayers side? Old school will, will throw stones at what's the, what's the big upside here? >>Mhm. So this will not be true for everyone and there will still be certain situations where it makes sense to choose different sets of of trade offs, but most everyone will be moving into the cloud for for convenience and speed reasons. And I'm deliberately not saying cost reasons. Um the reason being um usually or in the past you had simply different standard service delineations and all of the proserve, the consulting your hiring pool was all aligned with this old type of service delineation, which used to be a physical machine or a service or maybe even a service and you had a hot standby or something. If we, if we got like really a hugely respect from the same things still need to operate under laying what you do. But as we grow as an industry, more of more of this is commoditized and same as we commoditize service and storage network. We commoditized actually running off that machine and with service and such go even further. Um so it's not so much about about this fundamentally changing how it's built. It's just that a larger or a previously thing which was part of your value at and of what you did in your core is now just off the shelf infrastructure which you just by as much as you need again at certain scales and for certain specific use cases, this will not be true for the foreseeable future, but most everyone um will be moving there simply because where they actually add value and the people they can hire for and who are interested in that type of problem. I just mean that it's a lot more more sensical to to choose this different delineation but it's not cheaper >>and the commoditization and disintermediation is definitely happening, totally agree. And the complexity that's gonna be abstracted away with software is novell and it's also systematic. There's just it's new and there's some systems involved, so great insight there. I totally agree with you. The disruption is happening majority of almost all areas, so in all verticals and all industries, so so great point. I think this is where I think everyone's so excited and some people are paranoid actually frankly, but we cover that in depth on the Cuban other segments. But great point. We'll get back to what you're where you're spending your time right now. Um You're spending a lot of time on open metrics. What is that enabling take us through that? >>So um the super quick history of Prometheus, of course, we need that for open metrics. Promises was actually created in 2012. Um and the wire format which he used to in the exposition format, which he used to transport metrics into Prometheus is stable since 2014. Um But there is a large problem here. Um It carries the promise his name and a lot of competing projects and a lot of competing vendors of course there are vendors which compete with just the project. Um It's simply refused to to to take anything in which carried the promise his name. Of course, this doesn't align with their food um strategy, which they ran back then. So um together with scenes, the f we decided to just have a new different name for just that wire format for the underlying data model for everything which you need to make one complete exposition or a bunch of expositions towards towards permissions. So that's it at the corn, that's been ongoing since 2000 and 15 16 something. Um But there's also changes on the one hand, there is a super careful, a super super careful um Clean up and backwards compatible cleanup of a few things which the permit this exposition former serious here for didn't get right. But also we enable two features within this and as permitted chose open metrics as its official format. We also uplift committees and varying both heads. Obviously it's easier to get the synchronization. Um Ex employers stand out which is a completely new, at least outside of certain large search companies google. Um Who who used who use ex employers to do something different with with their traces. Um it was in 2017 when they told me that for them searching for traces didn't scale by labels. Uh and at that point I wanted to have both. I wanted to have traces and logs also with the same label set as permitting system. But when they tell you searching doesn't scale like they tell you you better listen. So uh the thing is this you have your index where you store all your data or your where you have the reference to enter your database and you have these label sets and they are super efficient and and quite powerful when compared to more traditional systems but they still carry a cost and that cost becomes non trivial at scale. So instead of storing the same labels for your metrics and your logs and your traces, the idea is to just store an I. D. For your trace which is super lightweight and it's literally just one idea. So your index is super tiny. Um And then you touch this information to your logs to your metrics and in the meantime also two year to year logs. Um So you know already that trace has certain properties because historically you have this needle estate problem. You have endless amounts of traces and you need to figure out what are the useful are they are the judicial and interesting aero state highlight and see some error occurring whatever if that information is already attached to your other signals. That's a lot easier. Of course. You see you're highlighting see bucket and you see a trace ID which is for that high latency bucket. So going into that trace, I already know it is a highlight and see trace for for a service which has a high latency, it has visited that labor. It was running this in that context, blah blah blah blah blah. Same for logs. There is an error. There is an exception, maybe a security breach, what have you and I can jump directly into a trace and I have all this mental context and the most expensive part is the humans. So enabling that human to not need to break mental uh train of thought to just jump directly from all the established state which they already have here in debugging just right into the trace, went back and just see why that thing behave that way. It's super powerful and it's also a lot cheaper to store this on the back and a four year traces which in our case internally we just run at 100% something. We do not throw data way, which means you don't have the super interesting thing. And by the way the trace just doesn't exist for us a good job. And that's the one thing to to from day one this intent to to marry those three pillars more closely. The other thing is by having a true lingua franca. It gave that concept of of of promises compatibility on the wire, its own name and it's its own distinct concept. And that is something which a lot of people simply attached to. So just by having that name, allow the completely different conversation over the last half decade or so and to close >>them close it >>up and to close that point because I come from the network, from the networking space and, and basically I T f r f C s are the currency within the networking space and how you force your vendors to support something, which is why I brought open metrics into the I. D. F. To to give it an official stamp of approval in Rfc number which is currently hopefully successful. Um So all of a sudden you can slip this into your tender and just tell your vendor, ex wife said okay, you need to support this. But I've seen all of a sudden by contract they're bound to to support communities native. So >>I support that Rfc yet or no, is that still coming? >>I, so at the last uh TF meeting, which was virtual, obviously I presented everything to the L. A W G. Um there was very good feedback. Um they want to adopt it as an informational uh I. D. Reason being it is most or it is a documentation of an already widely existed standard. So it gets different bits and pieces in the heather. Um Currently I'm waiting for a few rounds of feedback on specific wording how to make it more clear and such. Um looking >>good. It's looking good. >>Oh yes while presenting it. They actually told me that I have a conference with promises and performance. Well >>that's how you get things done in the old school internet. That's the way it was talking to Vince serving all of my friends and that generation we grew up, I mean I was telling a story on the clubhouse, just random that I grew up in the era. We used to pirate software used to deal software back in the old days. Pre open source. This is how things get done. So I gotta ask you the impact question. The, the deal with open metrics potentially could disrupt all those startups. So what, how does this impact all these stars because everyone is jockeying for land grabbing the observe ability space? Is that just because it's just too many people competing for one spot or do they all have differentiation? What happens to all those observe ability startups that got minted and funded? >>So I have, I think we have to split this into two answers, the first one open metrics and also Prometheus we're trying really hard to standardize what we're doing and to make this reusable as much as we possibly can um simply because premises itself does not have any any profit motivation or anything, it is just a project run by people. Um so we gain by, by users using our stuff and working in the way, which we think is a good way to operate. So anyone who just supports all those open standards, just on boards themselves onto a huge ecosystem of already installed base. And we're talking millions and millions and millions of installations, we don't have hard numbers, but the millions and millions I am certain of and thats installations, not users, so that's several orders of magnitude more. Um, so that that actually enables an ecosystem within which to move as to the second question. It is a super hot topic. So obviously that we see money starts coming in from all right. Um, I don't think that everyone will survive, but that is just how it usually is. There is a lot of of not very differentiated offerings, be the software, be they as a service, be their distributions? Well, you don't really see much much value and not not a lot of, not a lot of much anything in ways of innovation. So this is more about about making it easier to run or or taking that pain away, which obviously makes you open to attack by by all the hyper scale. Of course, they can just do this at a higher scale than you. Um, so unless you actually really in a way in that space and actually shape and lead in that space, at least to some extent, it will probably be relatively hard. That being said. >>Yeah, when you ride, when you ride the big waves like this, I mean, you you got to be on the right side of this. Uh, Pat Gelsinger's when he was that VM Where now is that intel told me on the cube one time. If you're not, you don't get it right on these waves, your driftwood, Right? So, so, you know, and we've seen this movie before, when you start to see the standards bodies like the I E T. F. Start to look at standards. You start to think there's a broader market opportunities, a need for some standards, which is good. It enables more value, right value creation, whether it's out in the open or if it's innovative from a commercialization standpoint, you know, these are good things and then you have everyone who's jockeying around from the land grab incomes, a standard momentum, you gotta be on the right side of these things. We know what we know it's gonna look like. If you're not on the right side of the standard, then your proprietary, >>precisely. >>And so that's the endgame. Okay, well, I really appreciate the impact. Final question. Um, as the world evolved post Covid as cloud Native goes mainstream, the enterprises in the cloud scale are demanding more things. Enterprises are are, you know, they want more stuff than just straight up in the cloud startups, for instance. So you start to see, you know, faster, more agility obviously, uh, with deploying modern apps, when you start getting into enterprise grade scale, you gotta start thinking, you know, this is an engineering and computer science discipline. Coming together, you've got to look at the architecture. What's your future vision of how the next gen programmable infrastructure looks like? >>You mean, as in actually manage those services or limited to observe ability to >>observe ability, role, observe ability. Just you're in the urine. The survivability speaks to the operating system of what's going on, distributed computing you're looking at, you gotta have a good observe ability if you want to deploy services. So, you know, as it evolves and this is not a fringe thing anymore. This is real deal. This observe abilities a key linchpin in the architecture. >>So, um, maybe to approach us from two sides. One of the things which, which, I mean I come from very much non cloud native background. One of the things which tends to be overlooked in cloud native is that not everything is green field. Matter of fact, legacy is the code word for makes actual money. Um, so a lot of brownfield installations, which still make money, which we keep making money and all of those existence, they will not go away anytime soon. And as soon as you go to actually industry trying to uplift themselves to industry that foreign, all those passwords you get a lot more complexity in, in just the availability of systems than just the cloud native scheme. So being able to to actually put all of those data types together and not just have you. Okay, nice. I have my micro service events fully instrumented and if anything happens on the layer below, I'm simply unable to make any any effort on debugging um things like for example, Prometheus course they are so widely adopted enable you to literally, and I did this myself um from the Diesel Genset of your data center over the network down to down to the office. If if someone is in there, if if if your station and your pager is is uh stepped in such to the database to the extra service which is facing your end customers, all of those use the same labels that use the same metadata to actually talk about this. So all of a sudden I can really drill down into my data, not only from you. Okay. I have my microservices, my database. Big deal. No, I can actually go down as deep in my infrastructure as my infrastructure is. And this is especially important for anyone who's from the more traditional enterprise because most of them will for the foreseeable future have tons and tons and tons of those installations and the ability to just marry all this data together no matter where it's coming from. Of course you have this lingual franklin, you have these widely adopted open standards. I think that is one of the main drivers in >>jail. I think you just nailed the hybrid and surprised use case, you know, operation at scale and integrating the systems. So great job Richard, thank you so much for coming on. Richard Hartman, Director of community Griffon A labs. I'm talking, observe ability here on the cube. I'm john for your host covering cube con 21 cognitive content. One virtual. Thanks for watching. Mhm Yeah. Mhm.