>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain and coverage of Q con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. You're a host of the cube along with Paul Gillum, senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle, ENCO, senior ready, senior it analyst for giga own. Uh, this has been a full day, 7,500 attendees. I might have seen them run out of food. This is just unexpected. I mean, they, the, it escalated from what understand it went from four, capping it off to 4,000 gold, 5,000 gold in and off. Finally at 7,500 people. I'm super excited for, you know, today's been a great day of coverage. I'm super excited for tomorrow's coverage, uh, from the cube. But first off, we'll let the, the new person on stage take the, the first question of, of the wrap up of the day of coverage, UN Rico on Rico. What's different about this year versus other Q coupons or cloud native conversations. >>I, I think in general, it's the maturity. So we talk it a lot about day two operations, uh, observability monitoring, uh, going deeper and deeper in the security aspects of the application. So this means that for many enterprises, Kubernetes is becoming real critical. They want to, to get more control of it. And of course you have the discussion around Phen op around, you know, uh, cost control because we are deploying Kubernetes everywhere. And, and if you don't have everything optimized control, monitor it, you know, uh, cost to the roof and think about, uh, deploying the public cloud. If your application is not optimized, you're paying more, but also in the on premises, if you are not optimiz, you don't have the clear idea of what is going to happen. So capacity planning become the nightmare that we know from the past. So there is a lot of going on around these topics, uh, really exciting, actually less infrastructure, more replication. That is what Kubernetes is India. >>Paul help me separate some of the signal from the noise. Uh, there is a lot going on a lot of overlap. What are some of the big themes of takeaways for day one that enterprise architects executives need to take home and really chew >>On? Well, the Kubernetes was a turning point. You know, Docker was introduced nine years ago and for the first three or four years, it was an interesting technology that was not very widely adopted. Kubernetes came along and gave developers a reason to use containers. What strikes me about this conference is that this is a developer event, you know, ordinarily you go to conferences and it's geared toward it managers towards CIOs. This is very much geared toward developers when you have the hearts and minds of developers, the rest of the industry is sort of pulled along with it. So this is ground zero for the hottest, uh, the, the hottest area of the entire computing industry. Right now, I is in this area building distributed services, BA microservices based cloud native applications. And it's the developers who are leading the way. I think that's, that's a significant shift. I don't see the managers here, the CIOs here, these are the people who are, uh, who are pulling this industry into the next generation. >>Um, one of the interesting things that I've seen when we, you know, we've always said, Kubernetes is for the developers, but we talk with, uh, an icon from, uh, MoneyGram. Who's a end user, he's an enterprise architect. And he brought Kubernetes to his front end developers and they, they, they kind of rejected it. They said, what is this? I just wanna develop cold. So when we say Kubernetes is for developers, or the developers are here, where, how do we reconcile that mismatch of experience? We have enterprise architecture. I hear constantly that, that the, uh, Kubernetes is for developers, but is it a certain kind of developer that Kubernetes is for? >>Well, yes and no. I mean, so the paradigm is changing. Okay. So, and maybe a few years back, it was tough to understand how, you know, uh, uh, make your application different. So microservices, everything was new for everybody, but actually, so everything is changed to a point. Now, the developer understands, you know, it is neural. So, you know, going through the application APIs automation, because the complexity of this application is, is huge. And you have, you know, 7 24 kind of development, uh, sort of deployment. So you have to stay always on cetera, et cetera. And actually to the point of, you know, developers, uh, you know, bringing this new generation of, uh, decision makers in India. So they are actually decision, they are adopting technology. Maybe it's a sort of shadow it at the very beginning. So they're adopting it, they're using it. And they're starting to use a lot of open source stuff. And then somebody upper in the stack, the executive says, what are, yeah, they, they discover that the technology is already in place is, uh, is a critical component. And then it's, uh, you know, uh, transformed in something enterprise, meaning, you know, paying enterprise services on top of it to be sure con uh, contract and so on. So it's a real journey. And these are, these guys are the real decision makers. Oh, they are at the base of the decision making process. At least >>Cloud native is something we're gonna learn to take for granted. You know, when you remember back, remember the fail whale in the early days of Twitter, when periodically the service would just would just, uh, um, crash from, uh, from, uh, traffic or Amazon went through the same thing. Facebook went through the same thing. We don't see that anymore because we are now learning to take cloud native for granted. We assume applications are gonna be available. They're gonna be performant. They're gonna scale. They're gonna handle anything. We throw at them that is cloud native at work. And I think we, we forget sometimes how refreshing it is to have, uh, an internet that really works for you. >>Yeah. I, I think we're much earlier in the journey. You know, we have Microsoft, uh, on the Xbox team talked about 22,000 pods running ni D some of the initial problems and pain points of, uh, around those challenges. Uh, much of my hallway track conversation has been centered around as we talk about kind of the decision makers, the platform teams. And this is what I'm getting excited to talk about in tomorrow's coverage. Who's on the ground doing this stuff. Is it developers as we are, as, as we see or hear or told, or is it what we're seeing from the Microsoft example, the MoneyGram example where central it is kind of getting it, and not only are they getting it, they're enabling developers to, to simply write code, build it. And Kubernetes is invisible. It seems like that's become the holy grill to make Kubernetes invisible cloud native invisible, and the experience is much closer to cloud. >>So I, I think that, uh, um, it's an interesting, I mean, I had a lot of conversation in the past year is that it's not that the original, you know, traditional it operations are disappearing. So it's just that, uh, traditional it operation are giving resources to these new developers. Okay. So it's a, it's a sort of walled garden. You don't see the wall, but it's a walled garden. So they are giving you resources and you use these resources like an internal cloud. So a few years back, we were talking about private cloud, the private cloud, as, you know, as a, let's say, uh, the same identical paradigm of, of the public cloud. This is not possible because there are no infinite resources or, well, whatever we, we think are infinite resources. So what you're doing today is giving these developers enough resources to think that they are unlimited and they can, uh, do automatic provisioning and do all these kind of things. So they don't think about infrastructure at all, but actually it's there. So it operation are still there providing resources to let developers be more free and agile and everything. So we are still in a, I think in an interesting time for all of it, >>Kubernetes and cloud native in general, I think are blurring the lines, traditional lines development and operations always were separate entities, obviously through with DevOps. Those two are emerging, but now we're moving. When you add in shift left testing shift, right? Testing, uh, dev SecOps, you see the developers become much more involved in the infrastructure and they want to be involved in infrastructure because that's what makes their applications perform. So this is gonna, cause I think it organizations to have, do some rethinking about what those traditional lines are, maybe break down those walls and have these teams work, work much closer together. And that should be a good thing because the people who are developing applications should also have intimate knowledge of the infrastructure they're gonna run on. >>So Paul, another recurring theme that we've heard here is the impact of funding on resources. What have you, what have your discussions been around founders and creators when it comes to sourcing talent and the impact of the markets on just their day to day? >>Well, the sourcing talent has been a huge issue for the last year. Of course, really ever since the pandemic started interesting. We, uh, one of our, our guests earlier today said that with the meltdown in the tech stock market, actually talent has become more available because people who were tied to their companies because of their, their stock options are now seeing those options are underwater. And suddenly they're not as loyal to the companies they joined. So that's certainly for the, for the startups. Uh, there are many small startups here. Um, they're seeing a bit of a windfall now from the, uh, from the tech stock, uh, bust, um, nevertheless skills are a long term problem. The us, uh, educational system is turning out about 10% of the skilled people that the industry needs every year. And no one I know, sees an end to that issue anytime soon. >>So ENGO, last question to you, let's talk about what that means to the practitioner. There's a lot of opportunity out >>There. >>200 plus sponsors I hear here I think is, or the projects is 200 plus, where are the big opportunities as a practitioner, as I'm thinking about the next thing that I'm going to learn to help me survive the next 10 or 15 years of my career? Where, where do you think the focus should be? Should it be that low level, uh, cloud builder, or should it be at those Le levels of extraction that we're seeing and reading about? >>I, I think, I think that, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's a good question. The, the answer is not that easy. I mean, uh, being a developer today, for sure grants, you, you know, uh, a salary at the end of the month, I mean, there is high demand, but actually there are a lot of other technical, uh, figures in, in the, in, uh, in the data center in the cloud that could, you know, really find easily a job today. So developers is the first in my mind also because they are more, uh, they, they can serve multiple roles. It means you can be a developer, but actually you can be also, you know, with the new roles that we have, especially now with the DevOps, you can be, uh, somebody that supports operation because, you know, automation, you know, a few other things. So you can be a C admin of the next generation, even if you're a developer, even if when you start as a developer, >>Cuan 20, 22 is exciting. I don't care if you're a developer practitioner, a investor, a, uh, it decision maker is CIO CXO. They're so much to learn and absorb here and we're going to be covering it for the next two days. Me and Paul will be shoulder to shoulder. We will, you, I'm not gonna say you're gonna get sick of this because it's just, you know, it's all great information. We'll, we'll, we'll help sort all of this from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host ENCO senior, the Paul Gillon. And you're watching the, you, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Melissa Spain. And we're at cuon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend. And my co-host en Rico senior Etti en Rico's really proud of me. I've called him en Rico and said IK, every session, senior it analyst giga, O we're talking to fantastic builders at Cuban cloud native con about the projects and the efforts en Rico up to this point, it's been all about provisioning insecurity. What, what conversation have we been missing? >>Well, I mean, I, I think, I think that, uh, uh, we passed the point of having the conversation of deployment of provisioning. You know, everybody's very skilled, actually everything is done at day two. They are discovering that, well, there is a security problem. There is an observability problem. And in fact, we are meeting with a lot of people and there are a lot of conversation with people really needing to understand what is happening. I mean, in their classroom, what, why it is happening and all the, the questions that come with it. I mean, and, uh, the more I talk with, uh, people in the, in the show floor here, or even in the, you know, in the various sessions is about, you know, we are growing, the, our clusters are becoming bigger and bigger. Uh, applications are becoming, you know, bigger as well. So we need to know, understand better what is happening. It's not only, you know, about cost it's about everything at the >>End. So I think that's a great set up for our guests, max, Provo, founder, and CEO of storm for forge and Patrick Britton, Bergstrom, Brookstone. Yeah, I spelled it right. I didn't say it right. Berg storm CTO. We're at Q con cloud native con we're projects are discussed, built and storm forge. I I've heard the pitch before, so forgive me. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of torn. I have service mesh. What do I need more like, what problem is storm for solving? >>You wanna take it? >>Sure, absolutely. So it it's interesting because, uh, my background is in the enterprise, right? I was an executive at United health group. Um, before that I worked at best buy. Um, and one of the issues that we always had was, especially as you migrate to the cloud, it seems like the CPU dial or the memory dial is your reliability dial. So it's like, oh, I just turned that all the way to the right and everything's hunky Dory. Right. Uh, but then we run into the issue like you and I were just talking about where it gets very, very expensive, very quickly. Uh, and so my first conversations with Matt and the storm forge group, and they were telling me about the product and, and what we're dealing with. I said, that is the problem statement that I have always struggled with. And I wish this existed 10 years ago when I was dealing with EC two costs, right? And now with Kubernetes, it's the same thing. It's so easy to provision. So realistically, what it is is we take your raw telemetry data and we essentially monitor the performance of your application. And then we can tell you using our machine learning algorithms, the exact configuration that you should be using for your application to achieve the results that you're looking for without over provisioning. So we reduce your consumption of CPU of memory and production, which ultimately nine times outta 10, actually I would say 10 out of 10 reduces your cost significantly without sacrificing reliability. >>So can your solution also help to optimize the application in the long run? Because yes, of course, yep. You know, the lowing fluid is, you know, optimize the deployment. Yeah. But actually the long term is optimizing the application. Yes. Which is the real problem. >>Yep. So we actually, um, we're fine with the, the former of what you just said, but we exist to do the latter. And so we're squarely and completely focused at the application layer. Um, we are, uh, as long as you can track or understand the metrics you care about for your application, uh, we can optimize against it. Um, we love that we don't know your application. We don't know what the SLA and SLO requirements are for your app. You do. And so in, in our world, it's about empowering the developer into the process, not automating them out of it. And I think sometimes AI and machine learning sort of gets a bad wrap from that standpoint. And so, uh, we've at this point, the company's been around, you know, since 2016, uh, kind of from the very early days of Kubernetes, we've always been, you know, squarely focused on Kubernetes using our core machine learning, uh, engine to optimize metrics at the application layer, uh, that people care about and, and need to need to go after. And the truth of the matter is today. And over time, you know, setting a cluster up on Kubernetes has largely been solved. Um, and yet the promise of, of Kubernetes around portability and flexibility, uh, downstream when you operationalize the complexity, smacks you in the face. And, uh, and that's where, where storm forge comes in. And so we're a vertical, you know, kind of vertically oriented solution. Um, that's, that's absolutely focused on solving that problem. >>Well, I don't want to play, actually. I want to play the, uh, devils advocate here and, you know, >>You wouldn't be a good analyst if you didn't. >>So the, the problem is when you talk with clients, users, they, there are many of them still working with Java with, you know, something that is really tough. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, we loved all of us loved Java. Yeah, absolutely. Maybe 20 years ago. Yeah. But not anymore, but still they have developers. They are porting applications, microservices. Yes. But not very optimized, etcetera. C cetera. So it's becoming tough. So how you can interact with these kind of yeah. Old hybrid or anyway, not well in generic applications. >>Yeah. We, we do that today. We actually, part of our platform is we offer performance testing in a lower environment and stage. And we like Matt was saying, we can use any metric that you care about and we can work with any configuration for that application. So the perfect example is Java, you know, you have to worry about your heap size, your garbage collection tuning. Um, and one of the things that really struck, struck me very early on about the storm forage product is because it is true machine learning. You remove the human bias from that. So like a lot of what I did in the past, especially around SRE and, and performance tuning, we were only as good as our humans were because of what they knew. And so we were, we kind of got stuck in these paths of making the same configuration adjustments, making the same changes to the application, hoping for different results. But then when you apply machine learning capability to that, the machine will recommend things you never would've dreamed of. And you get amazing results out of >>That. So both me and an Rico have been doing this for a long time. Like I have battled to my last breath, the, the argument when it's a bare metal or a VM. Yeah. Look, I cannot give you any more memory. Yeah. And the, the argument going all the way up to the CIO and the CIO basically saying, you know what, Keith you're cheap, my developer resources expensive, my bigger box. Yep. Uh, buying a bigger box in the cloud to your point is no longer a option because it's just expensive. Talk to me about the carrot or the stick as developers are realizing that they have to be more responsible. Where's the culture change coming from? So is it, that is that if it, is it the shift in responsibility? >>I think the center of the bullseye for us is within those sets of decisions, not in a static way, but in an ongoing way, especially, um, especially as the development of applications becomes more and more rapid. And the management of them, our, our charge and our belief wholeheartedly is that you shouldn't have to choose, you should not have to choose between costs or performance. You should not have to choose where your, you know, your applications live, uh, in a public private or, or hybrid cloud environment. And so we want to empower people to be able to sit in the middle of all of that chaos and for those trade-offs and those difficult interactions to no, no longer be a thing. You know, we're at, we're at a place now where we've done, you know, hundreds of deployments and never once have we met a developer who said, I'm really excited to get outta bed and come to work every day and manually tune my application. <laugh> One side, secondly, we've never met, uh, you know, uh, a manager or someone with budget that said, uh, please don't, you know, increase the value of my investment that I've made to lift and shift us over mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, to the cloud or to Kubernetes or, or some combination of both. And so what we're seeing is the converging of these groups, um, at, you know, their happy place is the lack of needing to be able to, uh, make those trade offs. And that's been exciting for us. So, >>You know, I'm listening and looks like that your solution is right in the middle in application per performance management, observability. Yeah. And, uh, and monitoring. So it's a little bit of all of this. >>So we, we, we, we want to be, you know, the Intel inside of all of that, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, we don't, you know, we often get lumped into one of those categories. It used to be APM a lot. We sometimes get a, are you observability or, and we're really not any of those things in and of themselves, but we, instead of invested in deep integrations and partnerships with a lot of those, uh, with a lot of that tooling, cuz in a lot of ways, the, the tool chain is hardening, uh, in a cloud native and, and Kubernetes world. And so, you know, integrating in intelligently staying focused and great at what we solve for, but then seamlessly partnering and not requiring switching for, for our users who have already invested likely in a APM or observability. >>So to go a little bit deeper. Sure. What does it mean integration? I mean, do you provide data to this, you know, other applications in, in the environment or are they supporting you in the work that you >>Yeah, we're, we're a data consumer for the most part. Um, in fact, one of our big taglines is take your observability and turn it into actionability, right? Like how do you take the it's one thing to collect all of the data, but then how do you know what to do with it? Right. So to Matt's point, um, we integrate with folks like Datadog. Um, we integrate with Prometheus today. So we want to collect that telemetry data and then do something useful with it for you. >>But, but also we want Datadog customers. For example, we have a very close partnership with, with Datadog, so that in your existing data dog dashboard, now you have yeah. This, the storm for capability showing up in the same location. Yep. And so you don't have to switch out. >>So I was just gonna ask, is it a push pull? What is the developer experience? When you say you provide developer, this resolve ML, uh, learnings about performance mm-hmm <affirmative> how do they receive it? Like what, yeah, what's the, what's the, what's the developer experience >>They can receive it. So we have our own, we used to for a while we were CLI only like any good developer tool. Right. Uh, and you know, we have our own UI. And so it is a push in that, in, in a lot of cases where I can come to one spot, um, I've got my applications and every time I'm going to release or plan for a release or I have released, and I want to take, pull in, uh, observability data from a production standpoint, I can visualize all of that within the storm for UI and platform, make decisions. We allow you to, to set your, you know, kind of comfort level of automation that you're, you're okay with. You can be completely set and forget, or you can be somewhere along that spectrum. And you can say, as long as it's within, you know, these thresholds, go ahead and release the application or go ahead and apply the configuration. Um, but we also allow you to experience, uh, the same, a lot of the same functionality right now, you know, in Grafana in Datadog, uh, and a bunch of others that are coming. >>So I've talked to Tim Crawford who talks to a lot of CIOs and he's saying one of the biggest challenges, or if not, one of the biggest challenges CIOs are facing are resource constraints. Yeah. They cannot find the developers to begin with to get this feedback. How are you hoping to address this biggest pain point for CIOs? Yeah. >>Development? >>Just take that one. Yeah, absolutely. That's um, so like my background, like I said, at United health group, right. It's not always just about cost savings. In fact, um, the way that I look about at some of these tech challenges, especially when we talk about scalability, there's kind of three pillars that I consider, right? There's the tech scalability, how am I solving those challenges? There's the financial piece, cuz you can only throw money at a problem for so long. And it's the same thing with the human piece. I can only find so many bodies and right now that pool is very small. And so we are absolutely squarely in that footprint of, we enable your team to focus on the things that they matter, not manual tuning like Matt said. And then there are other resource constraints that I think that a lot of folks don't talk about too. >>Like we were, you were talking about private cloud for instance. And so having a physical data center, um, I've worked with physical data centers that companies I've worked for have owned where it is literally full wall to wall. You can't rack any more servers in it. And so their biggest option is, well, I could spend 1.2 billion to build a new one if I wanted to. Or if you had a capability to truly optimize your compute to what you needed and free up 30% of your capacity of that data center. So you can deploy additional name spaces into your cluster. Like that's a huge opportunity. >>So either out of question, I mean, may, maybe it, it doesn't sound very intelligent at this point, but so is it an ongoing process or is it something that you do at the very beginning mean you start deploying this. Yeah. And maybe as a service. Yep. Once in a year I say, okay, let's do it again and see if something changes. Sure. So one spot 1, 1, 1 single, you know? >>Yeah. Um, would you recommend somebody performance tests just once a year? >>Like, so that's my thing is, uh, previous at previous roles I had, uh, my role was you performance test, every single release. And that was at a minimum once a week. And if your thing did not get faster, you had to have an executive exception to get it into production. And that's the space that we wanna live in as well as part of your C I C D process. Like this should be continuous verification every time you deploy, we wanna make sure that we're recommending the perfect configuration for your application in the name space that you're deploying >>Into. And I would be as bold as to say that we believe that we can be a part of adding, actually adding a step in the C I C D process that's connected to optimization and that no application should be released monitored and sort of, uh, analyzed on an ongoing basis without optimization being a part of that. And again, not just from a cost perspective, yeah. Cost end performance, >>Almost a couple of hundred vendors on this floor. You know, you mentioned some of the big ones, data, dog, et cetera. But what happens when one of the up and comings out of nowhere, completely new data structure, some imaginable way to click to elementry data. Yeah. How do, how do you react to that? >>Yeah. To us it's zeros and ones. Yeah. Uh, and you know, we're, we're, we're really, we really are data agnostic from the standpoint of, um, we're not, we we're fortunate enough to, from the design of our algorithm standpoint, it doesn't get caught up on data structure issues. Um, you know, as long as you can capture it and make it available, uh, through, you know, one of a series of inputs, what one, one would be load or performance tests, uh, could be telemetry, could be observability if we have access to it. Um, honestly the messier, the, the better from time to time, uh, from a machine learning standpoint, um, it, it, it's pretty powerful to see we've, we've never had a deployment where we, uh, where we saved less than 30% while also improving performance by at least 10%. But the typical results for us are 40 to 60% savings and, you know, 30 to 40% improvement in performance. >>And what happens if the application is, I, I mean, yes, Kubernetes is the best thing of the world, but sometimes we have to, you know, external data sources or, or, you know, we have to connect with external services anyway. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. So can you, you know, uh, can you provide an indication also on, on, on this particular application, like, you know, where the problem could >>Be? Yeah, yeah. And that, that's absolutely one of the things that we look at too, cuz it's um, especially when you talk about resource consumption, it's never a flat line, right? Like depending on your application, depending on the workloads that you're running, um, it varies from sometimes minute to minute, day to day, or it could be week to week even. Um, and so especially with some of the products that we have coming out with what we want to do, you know, partnering with, uh, you know, integrating heavily with the HPA and being able to handle some of those bumps and not necessarily bumps, but bursts and being able to do it in a way that's intelligent so that we can make sure that, like I said, it's the perfect configuration for the application regardless of the time of day that you're operating in or what your traffic patterns look like. Um, or you know, what your disc looks like, right? Like cuz with our, our low environment testing, any metric you throw at us, we can, we can optimize for. >>So Madden Patrick, thank you for stopping by. Yeah. Yes. We can go all day. Because day two is I think the biggest challenge right now. Yeah. Not just in Kubernetes, but application replatforming and re and transformation. Very, very difficult. Most CTOs and S that I talked to, this is the challenge space from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host en Rico senior. And you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Welcome back to Los Angeles, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here on day three of the cubes, coverage of coop con and cloud native con north America, 21, Dave, we've had a lot of great conversations. The last three days it's been jam packed. Yes, it has been. And yes, it has been fantastic. And it's been live. Did we mention that it's inline live in Los Angeles and we're very pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. David Stephanie is here. The CEO of Trulio David. Welcome back. It's good to see you. >>Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Isn't it great to be in person? Oh man. It's been a reunion. >>It hasn't been a reunion and they have Ubered been talking about these great little, have you seen these wristbands that they have? I actually asked >>For two, cause I'm a big hugger, so >>Excellent. So, so here we are day three of coupon. That's actually probably day five, our third day of coverage. I'm losing track to it's Friday. I know that, that I can tell you, you guys announced two dot five a couple of weeks ago. Tell us what's in that. What's exciting. Before we crack open Twilio, uh, choy. >>Sure, sure. Well, it's been exciting to be here. Look, the theme right of resiliency realize has been it's right up our wheelhouse, right? To signal that more people are getting into production type of environments. More people require data protection for cloud native applications, right? And, uh, there's two dot five releases. It is as an answer to what we're seeing in the market. It really is centered predominantly around, uh, ransomware protection. And uh, you know, for us, when we look at this, I I've done a lot of work in, in cybersecurity, my career. And we took a hard look about a year ago around this area. How do we do this? How do we participate? How do we protect and help people recover? Because recovery that's part of the security conversation. You can talk about all the other things, but recovery is just as important. And we look at, uh, everything from a zero trust architecture that we provide now to adhering, to NIST standards and framework that's everything from immutability. Uh, so you can't touch the backups now, right? Uh, th that's fine to encryption, right? We'll encrypt from the application all the way to that, to the storage repository. And we'll leverage Keem in that system. So it's kind of like Bitcoin, right? You need a key to get your coin. You as an end-user only have your key to your data alone. And that's it. So all these things become more and more important as we adopt more cloud native technology. And >>As the threat landscape changes dramatically. >>Oh yeah. I got to tell you right. Every time we, you, you publish an application into another cloud, it's a new vector, right? So now I'm living in a multi-cloud world where multiple applications in my data now lives, right? So people are trying to attack backups through, uh, consoles and the ministry of consoles to the actual back of themselves. So new vectors, new problems need new solutions. >>And you mentioned, you mentioned something, you, you, you asked the question, how do we participate? And we are here at KU con uh, w uh, cloud native foundation. So what about, what's your connection to the open source community and efforts there? How do you participate in that? >>Yeah, so it's a really great question because, you know, uh, we are a closed source solution that focuses all of our efforts on the open source community and protecting cloud native applications. Our roots have been protecting cloud native applications since 2013, 2014, and with a lot of very large logos. And, um, you know, through time there are open source projects that do emerge, you know, in this community. And for example, Valero is an open source data protection platform, um, for all of its goodness, as a, as a community-based project, they're also deficiencies, right? So Valero in itself is, uh, focuses only on label based applications. It doesn't really scale. It doesn't have a UI it's really CLI driven, which is good for some people and it's free. But you know, if you need to really talk about an enterprise grade platform, this is where we pick up, you know, we, in our last release, we gave you the ability to capture your Valero based backups. And now you want to be an adult with an enterprise caliber, you know, backup solution and continue to protect your environment and have compliance and governance needs all satisfied. That's where, that's where we really stand out. >>Well, when you're talking to customers in any industry, what are the things that you talk about in terms of relief, categorizing the key differentiators that really make Trulia stand out above the competition? >>Yeah. Cause there, there a bunch of, they're a bunch of great competitors out there. There's no doubt about it. A lot of the legacy folks that you do see perhaps on those show floor, they do tuck in Valero and under the, under the covers, they can check a box or you can set aside some customer needs some of the pure play people that, that we do see out there, great solutions too. But really where we shine is, you know, we are the most flexible agnostic solution that there is in this market. And we've had people like red hat and Susa and verandas, digital ocean and HPS morale. And the list goes on, certify, say, Trulio is the solution of choice. And now no matter where you are in this journey or who you're using, we have your back. So there's a lot of flexibility. There we are complete storage agnostic. >>We are cloud agnostic in going back to how you want to build our architecture application. People are in various phases in their, in their journey. A lot of times, many moons ago, you may have started with just a label based application. Then you have another department that has a new technique and they want to use helm, or you may be adopting open shift and you're using operators to us. It doesn't matter. You have peace of mind. So whether you have, you have to protect multiple departments or you as an end user, as one single tenant are using various techniques, we'll discover or protect and we can move forward. >>So if you looked at, if you look at it from a workload basis, um, and you look at your customers are the workloads that you're protecting. What's, what's the mix of what you think of as legacy virtualized things versus containerized things. And then, and then, and then the other kind of follow on to that is, um, are you seeing a lot of modernization and migration or are you seeing people leave the legacy things alone and then develop net new in sort of separate silos? >>Yeah. So that's a great question. And I, to tell you the answer varies, that's, that's the honest answer, right? You end up having, you may have a group or a CIO that says, look, your CTO says, we're moving to this new architecture. The water's great, bring your applications in. And so either it's, we're going to lift and shift an application and then start to break it apart over time and develop microservices, or we're gonna start net new. And it really does run, run the gambit. And so, you know, as we look at, for some of those people, they have peace of mind that they can bring their two on applications in and we can recover. And for some people that say, look, I'm going to start brand new, and these are gonna be stateless applications. Um, we've seen this story before, right? Our, our, uh, uh, I joke around, it's kinda like the movie Groundhog's day. >>Uh, you know, we, we started many moons ago within the OpenStack world and we started with stateless to stateful. Always, always, always finds a way, but for the stateless people, um, when you start thinking about security, I've had conversations with CSOs around the world who say, I'm going to publish a stainless application. What I'm concerned about things like drift, you know, what's happening in runtime may be completely different than what I intended. So now we give you the ability to capture that runtime state compare. The two things identify what's changed. If you don't like what you see, and you can take that point in time recovery into a sandbox and forensically take it apart. You know, one of our superpowers, if you will, is the, our point in time, backups are all in an open format. Everyone else has proprietary Schemos. So the benefit of an open format is you have the ability to leverage a lot of third party tooling. So take a point in time, run scanners across it. And it, God forbid Trulio goes away. You still have access and you can recreate a point in time. So when you start thinking about compliance, heavy environments, think about telcos, right? Or financial institutions. They have to keep things for 15 years, right? Technologies change, architectures change. You can't have that lock-in >>So we continue to thrive. And on that front, one of the marketing terms that we hear a lot, and I want to get your opinion on this as a feature proofing, how do you, what does, what does it mean to you and Trillium and how do you enable that for organizations, like you said, for the FSI is I have to keep data for 15 years and other industries that have to keep it for maybe even longer. >>I mean, right. The future proof, uh, you know, terminology, that's part of our mantra actually, when I talked about, you know, a superpower being as agnostic and flexible as can be right, as long as you adhere to standards, right? The standards that are out here, we have that agnostic play. And then again, not just capturing an applications, metadata data, but that open format, right? Giving you that open capability to unpack something. So you're not, there is no, there is no vendor lock-in with us at all. So all these things play a part into, into future-proofing yourself. And because we live and breathe cloud native applications, you know, it's not just Kubernetes right? Over the course of time, there'll be other things, right. You're going to see mixed workloads too. They're gonna be VM based in the cloud and container based in the cloud and server lists as well. But you, as long as you have that framework to continuously build off of it, that's, that's where we go. You know, uh, it shouldn't matter where your application lives, right? At the end of the day, we will protect the application and its data. It can live anywhere. So conversations around multi-cloud change, we start to think and talk across cloud, right? The ability to move your application, your data, wherever it, wherever it needs to be to. >>Well, you talked about recoverability and that is the whole point of backing up video. You have to be able to recover something that we've seen in the last 18, 19 months. Anyone can backup >>Data. >>That's right. That's right. If you can't recover it, or if you can't recover it in time. Yeah. We're talking like going on a business potential and we've seen the massive changes in the security landscape in the last 18, 19 months ransomware. I was looking at some, some cybersecurity data that showed that just in the first half of this calendar year, January one to June 30, 20, 21, ransomware was up nearly 11 X DDoS attacks are up. We've got this remote workforce. That's going to probably persist for a while. So the ability to recover data from not if we get hit by ransomware, but when we get hit by ransomware is >>When you're, you're absolutely right. And, and, and to your plate anyway. So anyone can back up anything. When you look at it, it's at its highest form. We talk about point time where you orchestration, right. Backup is a use case. Dr. Is a use case, right? How do you, reorchestrate something that's complex, right? The containers, these applications in the cloud native space, there are morphous, they're living things, right? The metadata is different from one day to the next, the data itself is different from when one day the net to the next. So that's, what's so great about Trillium. It's such an elegant solution. It allows your, reorchestrate a point in time when and where you need it. So yes. You have to be able to recover. Yes. It's not a matter of if, but when. Right. And that's why recovery is part of that security conversation. Um, you know, I I've seen insurance companies, right? They want to provide insurance for ransomware. Well, you're gonna have enough attacks where they don't want to provide that insurance anymore. It costs too much. The investment that you make with, with Trulio will save you so much more money down the road. Right. Uh, who's our product manager actually gave a talk about that yesterday and the economics were really interesting. >>Hmm. So how has the recovery methodology who participates in that changed over time? As, as we, you know, as we are in this world of developer operators who take on greater responsibility for infrastructure things. Yeah. Who's, who's responsible for backup and recovery today and how, how has that changed >>Everyone? Everyone's responsible. So, you know, we rewind however many years, right? And it used predominantly CIS admin that was in charge of backup administrator, but a ticket in your backup administrator, right. Cloud native space and application lifecycle management is a team sport. Security is a team sport. It's a holistic approach. Right? So when you think about the, the team that you put out on the field, whether your DevOps, your SRE dev sec ops it ops, you're all going to have a need for point in time, we orchestration for various things and the term may not be backup. Right? It's something else. And maybe for test dev purposes, maybe for forensic purposes, maybe for Dr. Right. So I say it's a team sport and security as a holistic thing that everyone has to get on board with >>The three orchestration is exactly the right way to talk about absolute these processes. It's not just recovery, you're rebuilding >>Yeah. A complex environment. It's always changing. >>That's one of the guarantees. It's always going to be changing >>That much. >>Can you give us a, leave us with a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Trulio delivers? >>Yeah. So it's interesting. I won't say who the customer is, but I'll tell you it's in the defense agency, it's a defense agency. Uh, they have developers all over the place. Uh, they need self-service capabilities for the tenants to mind their own backups. So you don't need to contact someone, right. They can build, they have one >>Dashboard, single pane of glass or truth to manage all their Corinthians applications. And it gives them that infrastructure to progress whether your dev ops or not your it ops, uh, this, this group has rolled it out across the nation and they're using in their work with very sensitive environments. So now we have they're back. And what are some of the big business outcomes that they're achieving already? >>The big business outcomes? Well, so operational efficiencies are definitely first and foremost, right? Empowering the end user with more tools, right? Because we've seen this shift left and people talking about dev ops, right. So how do I empower them to do more? So I see that operational efficiency, the recoverability aspect, God forbid, something goes wrong. How do you, how do you do that in the cost of that? Um, and then also, um, being native to the environment, the Trillium solution is built for Kubernetes. It is built on go. It is a Qubit stateless Kubernetes application. So you have to have seamless integration into these environments. And then going back to what I was saying before, knowing peace of mind, the credibility aspect, that it is blessed by, you know, red hat and suicide Mirandas and all these other, other folks in the field, um, that you can guarantee it's going to work >>Well, that helps to give your customers the confidence that there, and that confidence might sound trivial. It's not, especially when we're talking about security, it's not at all that, that's a, that's a big business outcome for you guys. When a customer says, I'm confident I have the right solution, we're going to be able to recover when things happen, we try, we fully trust in the solution that we're, >>And we'll bring more into production faster that helps everyone out here too. Right? It feels good. You have that credibility. You have that assurance that I can move faster and I can move into different clouds faster. And that's, we're gonna continue to put, we're gonna continue to push the envelope there. You know, coming a, as we look into, you know, going forward, we're going to come out with other capabilities. That's going to continue to differentiate ourselves from, from folks. Uh, we'll, we'll talk about in time, the ability to propagate data across multiple clouds simultaneously. So making RTOs look at the split seconds and minutes. And so I hope that we can have that conversation next time we were together, because it's really exciting. >>Any, any CTA that you want to give to the audience, any, any, uh, like upcoming or recent webinars that you think they would be really benefit from? >>I guess one thing I put out there is that, um, I understand that people need to continuously learn. There is a skillset hole in, in this market. We can, we understand that, you know, and people look to us as not just a vendor, but a partner. And a lot of the questions that we do get are how do I do this? Or how do I do that? Engage us, ask us to consume our product is really, really easy. You can download from the website or go to an, you know, red hats operator hub, or go to the marketplace over at Susa, and let's begin to begin and we're here to help. And so reach out, right? We want everyone to be successful. >>Awesome. trillium.io. David, thank you for joining us. This has been an exciting conversation. Good >>To see you all. >>Likewise. Good to see you in person take care. We look forward to the next time we see you when unpacking what other great things are going on on Trulia. We appreciate your >>Time. Thank you so much. Good to be here >>For David's fie and David Nicholson, the two Davids I'm going to sandwich. I'm Lisa Martin, you we're coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is Q con cloud native con north America, 2021. Stick around our next guest joins us momentarily.

from around the globe it's thecube with coverage of kubecon and cloudnativecon north america 2020 virtual brought to you by red hat the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners hey welcome back everybody jeff frick here with thecube coming to you from our palo alto studios with our ongoing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2020 virtual it's virtual like everything else that we're doing in 2020 we're really excited by our next guest we're going to dive into a company that you probably know a little bit on the surface but probably don't know a lot of the stuff that's going on behind the surface so we're really excited to have our next guest he is jai chakrabarti he is the director of engineering for core infrastructure at spotify jai great to see you great to be here with you today so as a as a long-standing uh spotify fan and and customer and premium customer and family playing customer just so there's no question i'm a big fan the infrastructure to deliver what i want to hear basically any sound any song from the entire world it seems like i don't know what the actual uh percentage of every published song you guys have you know kind of at my fingertips searchable available now to listen to is an amazing accomplishment i can't imagine how big and significant and complicated the infrastructure you guys must be managing and and not only that but kind of the meteoric growth over the last several years so first off just talk a little bit about spotify scale how you guys think about it is there some things that you can share to help people really understand you know some of the some of the big iron that's behind giving me the songs i want to hear absolutely and thank you for the opportunity to let me talk about this so it's a as you say it's a pretty mammoth project to be able to deliver just about any song that's in the world or now any podcast that you might want to listen to to hundreds of millions of fans and also enable creators to be able to share their content with the consumers who are interested in consuming that content so some of the metrics that go behind us are we have thousands of microservices running in production we were one of the early adopters of microservices at scale and continued to build on that foundation with early entrants to dockerize services and now of course largely on kubernetes we also have thousands of data pipelines hundreds of uh websites as well as micro app features and we're doing about 20 000 deployments a day to give you kind of a scale of how fast things are changing and for us speed is a great virtue as we're testing out features doing ab tests and trying to roll out the next best thing for the audio network it's amazing and i'm and i'm curious in terms of execution on the business side i mean clearly you're in many many countries you know you're global are all the licensing agreements for the music different by country are you just like super micromanaging um you know kind of the the revenue streams and the licensing by geo or is is that just as complex as it feels like it might be or is there some some simplicity or some scale that you can bring to uh to bring a little bit of of clarification there yeah so that is an area of complexity as well um so you know licensing across the broad set of content that we have as well as the number of publishers and creators that we have to make sure that everything is well accounted for is also kind of a source of complexity in our organizational makeup and then and then the the piece that i don't think a lot of people know is you guys are huge consumers and contributors back to open source and clearly we're here at q con cloud native con you've talked already about kubernetes and containers but i wonder before we get into some of the specifics if you can talk about philosophically the role of open source and why you know you guys are such a big open source company versus kind of back in the old days when you would have a lot of proprietary technology that you would try to develop and keep in-house as part of the as part of the secret sauce yeah thank you for that question so philosophically we are big proponents of open source we believe in giving back to the community we believe that when we as a community come together to solve these problems at scale the end result is much better than if we were to try it alone if any one company were to try it alone so some of the projects that we've contributed or invested a lot of time in are envoy for example which we use to power our perimeter at spotify or kubernetes which we use for deployment purposes as many companies do but there are also a number of other open source projects that we're committing to so for example with cloud bigtable we have produced an auto scaler that's now fairly widely used to be able to manage costs better with cloud bigtable we've also invested in a open source time series database called heroic to manage millions of data points for a metrics platform and scales so those are just a few examples but philosophically we believe this isn't something that we want to do alone and we want to leverage and do this together with the community right another one that you didn't mention there but you've talked about i want to dig into is backstage and as you mentioned you have a lot of developer teams working on a lot of projects like i saw a statistic maybe in github of the number of of github projects you guys are working on it's a it's a lot so what is backstage all about give us the story there yeah so at spotify we have almost somewhere around 500 engineering teams and so you can think about backstage as kind of like a central nervous system to be able to help engineers interface across the wide landscape that is spotify's engineering ecosystems so if you're an engineer you can go into backstage and you can manage your services your data pipelines your micro features you can see what other teams are doing what the organizational structure is you can get recommendations and insights on your tech health so you can see where you might need to invest more time and get some recommendations on how to get back to the blessed stock so it's really a one-stop developer portal that engineers spend the bulk of their time in today we open sourced it uh earlier this year and we've been absolutely thrilled with the response we've gotten thus far a number of companies have already started using it and contributing back so we've seen you know a lot of contributions coming back to backstage which is of course one of the ideas to be able to get some of the great ideas uh on backstage so we're really excited about that and specifically within backstage something that my team has just released into the open is a product called cost insights so one of the problems that we were dealing with at spotify is how do we sustainably look at cloud costs but do it in a way that isn't like a compliance exercise isn't a focus on traditional top top down cost controls but really taps into developers innate desire to work on optimization because all of us who come from an engineering background know that optimization is fun at the same time premature optimization is the root of all evil as the saying goes and so what we've done within our cost insights product and backstage is really try to find a good balance between engineering love for optimization and letting people know what are the areas where cloud spend really matters so if making an investment here isn't going to move the needle for us we let people know that this isn't worth your time to worry about so let me unpack you touch on a couple things first off you talked about it gives you an assessment of your engineering health so does that mean that it's kind of uh compliance within a standard is that looking for i guess not quite red flags yet but yellow flags of things that that are known potential issues down the road is it you know tapping into maybe higher cost services or microservices versus less that maybe there's a less expensive way so so how do you define health and how do you you know keep track of people getting away from health and then you know steering them back to being more healthy yeah that's a great question so we have this concept at spotify called golden state which is a reflection of how far away are you from all of the blessed frameworks libraries that we recommend to engineers and the way we think about golden state is there ought to be clear value adds to going to a new service a new library version and so the way we try to express it is unless of course there's a kind of a direct security concern and there aren't really too many ways to get around that but we really tried to preserve engineering autonomy and say if you go to this new framework for example you're going to save this much time on average so the recommendations that you'll find there are going to be highly specific so for example if you adopt uh you know an auto scaler for bigtable you're going to save this much time and spend this much less that's in general how we phrase these things okay and then on the cost insights i mean clearly when a dev is working on a new feature or new uh you know experimenting maybe with a bunch of new features and you're you're setting up multiple a b testing this and that are they are they not really working worrying about cost at the front end of that or is really kind of the cost optimization and you mentioned you know don't optimize too early does that come kind of after the fact and after you've you know moved some new things into production they have potential and now we do maybe a second order kind of analysis of the appropriateness of that feature because i imagine if they're just if you're just trying to come up with new features and exploring and trying new things not really worrying about the you're not worrying about the cloud bill right you're just trying to get some feature functionality and make sure you don't have too many bugs and make sure you're going to get some good client value and some new customer experience yeah yeah no and and we agree with that perspective so we think about the world in terms of startup scale-ups and mature businesses at spotify so there are a lot of teams who are experimenting with new ideas that fall into the startup category and by and large they are not going to be worrying about costs that being said we as infrastructure teams have the notice on us to think about how do we provide shared services and frameworks that abstract away a lot of these questions around how do you properly manage your costs right so that that is on us as infrastructure teams but really our perspective is for startups to move as quickly as they can and really if that's an idea that's viable and you get to what we call the scale-up stage or you get to the mature business stage where it really is a core part of our business then that's where you know you might start to get some nudges or recommendations and cost insights so interesting so i'd love to you know your background you came from financial services and trading where clearly speed matters accuracy matters you know that that's i mean basically financial services is is a software game at this stage of the game and it's a speed game and i saw another interesting uh video getting ready for this i think it was with gustav soderstrom talking about the competitive advantage of the early days really being speed and speed to return a result and speed to start that stream and it just struck me very much like you know the early days of google which was that was their whole speed thing and they even told you how fast you got a return on your search when you're thinking about optimizing now with the huge suite of features and functionalities that you have how do you think about speed is it still speed number one how is kind of the priority changed and what are some of the design priorities that when things go from experiment to start to be into the scale realm and hopefully be successful in production that that need to be thought about and potentially rank ordered um in in the proper way yeah yeah that's it's a great question and so you know i'll just refer to daniel x quote around this which is we aim to fail faster than anyone else and so for us as a company and with our growth trajectory and investing in the areas that we are looking to invest into it's still absolutely critical that we move fast that we get the ideas of the startup phase out to be vetted and validated if we can go to the next phase to the scale-up phase so i see that just as important today if not more than when i first joined spotify uh you know over four years ago at this point and regarding financial services um there are certainly you know touch points in terms of the amount of data that we're processing and the scale of technology that it requires to process that kind of data but one of the things that i really love about spotify of course is that we get to move fast which is sometimes of course going to be a lot more difficult when you're talking about the financial service arena and various uh compliance bodies that are overseeing any changes that you might make yeah you guys are you guys were running a little bit ahead of the regs i think which is pretty typical uh in the music business napster was running a little bit ahead of the regs and you know then we saw the evolution with the itunes and then you know you guys really really nailing the streaming service really for the first time and and opening up this new con consumption bottle and i wonder if you could talk about you know kind of keeping the customer experience first and making sure that that's a positive thing i can't help but think of of the netflix experience where they spend so much time on people's interaction with the application to to get them to try new things a recommendation engine such an important piece of the of the puzzle and i think what you guys have really nailed is the discovery piece because it's one thing to be able to quickly access a favorite song and be able to listen to it but everyone loves discovery right and discovery is kind of an interesting and interesting process and you guys have taken a really scientific approach in terms of cataloging music and and different attributes of music and then using those to help drive the recommendation engine i wonder if you can share you know kind of your thoughts in terms of being you know kind of ultimately driven by the customer experience and their interaction with the application and these things called you know music or podcast which is such a such a a a very personal thing to interact with yeah so from the perspective of core infrastructure you know it's spotify our goal is to really enable the scale in which we are processing the amount of audio content that goes through our system and so podcast of course is a new category that wasn't there when i originally joined spotify but it's really to provide a platform so these experiments can be done seamlessly so we can have different ways of looking at discovery looking at user segmentation and being able to come up with new ways that are going to be compelling to our customers so that's very exciting and fulfilling for us to be able to provide that platform by which our sister teams can iterate very quickly knowing that they have the guard rails uh which you know in our on-premise days at times was a struggle and where we're in a very different place now yeah so last question before i let you go we're at cubecon cloudnativecon um and and it's just an interesting thing that i always think about when you're managing engineering teams that are heavily open source participants and you know it's such a big piece now of of a lot of engineers motivation to be active participants in open source and to and to show their work to others outside the company but at the same time they have to get company work done so i just wonder if you could share your perspective of how do you manage open source contributions how do you keep them you know working on company projects but also make sure you allocate time and priorities to open source contributions because that is a really important piece of the motivation for a lot of engineers it's not just working for the company and getting paid at the india at the end of every two weeks yeah it's a key motivation as you say and it's key to our recruiting strategy and also how we think about retaining engineers and spotify so there are different mechanisms that we use and there's a lot of focus that's modified on coming up with development plans for engineers that actually make sense um so you know i would say that all the way from the oft quoted 20 time is something that you might hear at spotify where you have engineers who are working on open source 20 of the time or you might see a variety of customized customized options depending on who the engineer is where they want to grow and really i think the key here is providing the right support structures so even if you have the time are you getting the mentorship are you getting the right kind of support system so you know how to connect with the community and so you have other like-minded people who are bouncing ideas and you don't feel like you're doing it yourself so that's something that i feel really excited about that we've grown those support structures over the last few years eyes have also been very intentional about giving engineers time to work on open source and you give them as much as 20 i'd never heard that before yeah in some cases some i mean if that is what where an engineer really wants to focus and grow there are a number of folks at spotify who are spending up to 20 of their time on open source wow that's amazing that that is a uh that's a it's just it's such a great commitment for the company to the engineer if that's their priority and then everyone's going to benefit from it both the engineer the company as well as the community so really a forward-looking you know point of view to take that long-term view versus the you know maybe we should only give them 10 we're losing 10 of their time working on a project so that is super super progressive and i'm sure you must be seeing great roi on it or you wouldn't continue to be such huge proponents of open source and such huge contributors back so that's that's a great story yeah terrific i mean you know we we want those contributions to be in line with where we're growing as a company and we see a lot of opportunities uh where that is happening so like envoy or kubernetes um just to name a couple of examples where folks have devoted time in those areas well thanks for uh thanks for sharing some of the the story behind the scenes you know again household name what what a tremendous success story and and and uh you know i'm a movie customer so i'm definitely a customer though no no doubt about it so uh thank you for your contributions congrats to the team and uh and really loved the story of how you guys are contributing back and and doing a lot more than just making great music available to us all and a great channel for uh for creators to get their stuff out there so thanks again thanks so much for your time i really appreciate it all right he's jai i'm jeff you're watching the cube's continuing coverage of kubecon cloud nativecon north america 2020 thanks for watching we'll see you next [Music] time you

>>Live from Barcelona, Spain, execute covering CubeCon cloud native con Europe, 2019 onto you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back. We're here in Barcelona, Spain where 7,700 attendees are here for Q con cloud native con. I'm Stu Miniman and this is the cubes live two day coverage having to have on the program to returning guests to talk about five years of Kubernetes. To my right is Tim Hawkin wearing the Barna contributors shirt. Uh, and uh, sitting to his right is gay Bon Roy. So, uh, I didn't introduce their titles and companies, but you know, so Tim's and Google gives it Microsoft, uh, but you know, heavily involvement in uh, you know, Coobernetti's since the very early days. I mean, you know, Tim, you're, you're on the Wikipedia page game, you know, I think we have to do some re editing to make sure we get the community expanded in some of the major contributors and get you on there. But gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. >>Alright. Uh, so, you know, Tim just spoke to Joe Beda and we talked about, you know, the, the, the idea of, you know, Craig and Brendan and him sitting in the room and, you know, open source and, you know, really bringing this out there to community. But let's start with you. Cause he, you know, uh, I remember back many times in my career like, Oh, I read this phenomenal paper about Google. You know, we're going to spend the next decade, you know, figuring out the ripple effect of this technology. Um, you know, Coobernetti's has in five years had a major impact on, on what we're doing. Uh, it gives a little bit of your insight is to, you know, what you've seen from those early days, you know. >>Yeah. You know, um, in the early days we had the same conversations we produced. These papers are, you know, seminal in the industry. Um, and then we sort of don't follow up on them sometimes as Google. Um, we didn't want this to be that, right. We wanted this to be alive living thing with a real community. Uh, that took root in a different way than MapReduce, Hadoop sort of situation. Um, so that was very much front of mind as we work through what are we going to build, how are we going to build and how are we going to manage it? How are we going to build a community? How, how do you get people involved? How do you find folks like Gaiman and Deus and get them to say we're in, we want to be a part of this. >>All right, so Gabe, it was actually Joe corrected me when I said, well, Google started it and they pulled in some other like-minded vendors. Like he said, no, no stew. We didn't pull vendors in. We pulled in people and people that believed in the project and the vision, you were one of those people that got pulled in early. He were, you know, so help give us a little context in your, your viewpoint. I did. And, and, and you know, at the time I was working for a company, uh, called, uh, that I had started and we were out there trying to make developers more productive in industry using modern technology like containers. And you know, it was through the process of trying to solve problems for customers, sort of the lens that I was bringing, uh, to this where, um, I was introduced to some really novel technology approaches first through Docker. >>Uh, and you know, I was close with Solomon hikes, the, the founder over there. Uh, and then, you know, started to work closely with folks at Google, uh, namely Brendon burns, who I now work with at Microsoft. Um, you know, part of the, the founding Kubernetes team. Uh, and I, I agree with that statement that it is really about people. It's really about individual connections at the end of the day. Um, I think we do these things that at these coupons, uh, events called the contributor summits. And it's very interesting because when folks land at one of these summits, it's not about who you work for, what Jersey you're wearing, that sort of thing. It's people talking to people, trying to solve technical problems, trying to solve organizational challenges. Uh, and I think, you know, the, the phenomenon that's happened there and the scale with which that's happened is part of the reason why there's 8,000 people here in Barcelona today. >>Yeah. It's interesting to him cause you know, I used to be involved in some standards work and I've been, you know, working with the open source community for about 20 years. It used to be ah, you know, it was the side project that people did at nights and everything like that. Today a lot of the people that are contributing, well they do have a full time job and their job will either let them or asking them to do that. So I do talk to people here that when they're involved in the working groups, when they're doing these things, yes. You think about who their paycheck comes for, but that's secondary to what they're doing as part of the community. And it is, you know, some of the people what, what >>absolutely. It's part of the ethos of the project that the project comes first and if company comes second or maybe even third. Uh, and for the most part, this has been wildly successful. Uh, there's this huge base of trust among, uh, among the leadership and among the contributors. Um, and you know, it's, it's a big enough project now that I don't know every one of the contributors, but we have this web of trust. And, you know, I, I have this, this army of people that I know and I trust very well and they know people and they know people and it works out that the project has been wildly successful and we've never yet had a major conflict or strife that centered on company this or company that. >>Yeah. And I don't, I'd also add that it's an important development has happened in the wake of Kubernetes where, you know, for example, in my teams at Microsoft, I actually have dedicated PM and engineering staff where their only job is to focus on community engagements, right? Running the release team for communities one 15 or working on IPV six support or windows container support. Uh, and, and that work, that upstream work, uh, puts folks in contact with people from all different companies, Google, uh, uh, you know, Microsoft working closely together on countless initiatives. Uh, and the same is true really for the entire community. So I think it's really great to see that you can get not just sort of the interpersonal interactions. We can also get sort of corporate sponsorship of that model. Cause I do think at the end of the day people need to get their paychecks. Uh, and oftentimes that's going to come from a big company. Uh, and, and seeing that level of investment is, I think, uh, pretty encouraging. Okay. Well, you know, luckily five years in we've solved all the problems and everything works perfectly. Um, if that's not maybe the case, where do we need people involved? What things should we be looking at? Kind of the, the, the next year or two in this space, you know, a project >>of this size, a community of this size, a system of this scope has infinite work to do, right? The, the, the barrel is never going to be empty. Um, and in some cases it's filling faster than it's draining. Um, every special interest group, every SIG, it has a backlog of issues of things that they would like to see fixed of features that they have some user pounding the table saying, I need this thing to work. Uh, IPV six is a great example, right? And, and we have people now stepping up to take on these big issues because they have customers who need it or they see it as important foundational work for building future stuff. Um, so, you know, there's, there's no shortage of work to do. That's not just engineering work though, right? It's not just product definition or API. We have a, what we call a contributor experience. People who work with our community to entre online, uh, new contributors and um, and, and streamline how to get them in and involved in documentation and testing and release engineering. And there's so much sort of non-core work. Uh, I could go on on this for. >>Yeah, you're just reminding me of the session this morning is I don't manage clusters. I manage fleets. And you have the same challenge with the people. Yeah. And I also had another dimension to this about just the breadth of contribution. We were just talking before the show that, um, you know, outside at the logo there is this, uh, you know, characters, book characters, and such. And really that came from a children's book that was created to demonstrate core concepts, uh, to developers who were new to Kubernetes. And it ended up taking off and it was eventually donated to the CNCF. Um, but things like that, you can't underestimate the importance and impact that that can have on making sure that Kubernetes is accessible to a really broad audience. Okay. Uh, yeah, look, I want to give you both a, just the, the, the final word as to w what you shout out, you one for the community and uh, yeah. And any special things that have surprised you or exciting you? Uh, you know, here in 2019, >>uh, you know, exciting is being here. If you rewind five years and tell me I'm going to in Barcelona with with 7,500 of my best friends, uh, I would think you are crazy or are from Mars. Um, this is amazing. And uh, I thank everybody who's here, who's made this thing possible. We have a ton of work to do. Uh, and if you feel like you can't figure out what you need to work on, come talk to me and we'll, we'll figure it out. >>Yeah. And for me, I just want to give a big thank you to all the maintainers folks like Tim, but also, you know, some other folks who, you know, may, you may not know their name but they're the ones slogging it out and to get hub PRQ you know, trying to just make the project work and function day to day and were it not for their ongoing efforts, we wouldn't have any of this. So thank you to that. Well and look, thank you. Of course, to the community and thank you both for sharing with our community. We're always happy to be a small piece of a, you know, helping to spread the word and uh, give some voice to everything that's going on here. Thank you so much. All right, so we will be back with more coverage here from coupon cloud native con 2019 on Stu Miniman and thank you for watching the cube.