>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum, World 2019 brought to you by the M Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. Live Cube coverage of the emerald 2019 were here in San Francisco, California Mosconi North Lobby. Two sets Our 10th year covering the emerald in our 20th year of Of of our seasons of covering Me to be enterprised Tech. I'm Jeffrey Day Volonte student Justin Warren breaking down day to Cube insights segment. Dave's Do You Do You're on Set Valley set this the meadow set because it's got the steamboat chirping birds behind us. Justin, you've been doing some interviews out on the floor as well. Checking the story's out. All the news is out. Day one was all the big corporate stuff. Today was the product technology news stew. I'll go to you first. What's the assessment on your take on the M, where obviously they're reinventing themselves? Jerry Chen, who we interviewed, said this is Act three of'em where they keep on adding more and more prostitute their core, your thoughts on what's going on. >> So the biggest whore I've seen is the discussion of Tom Zoo, which really talking those cloud native applications. And if you break down VM wear, it's like many companies that said, There's the, you know, core product of the company. It is vey sphere. It is the legacy for what we have and it's not going anywhere, and it's changing. But, you know, then there's the modernization project Pacific howto a bridge to the multi cloud world. How do I bridge Kubernetes is going to come into the sphere and do that? But then there's the application world into the thing I've been. You know, the existential threat to VM, where I've been talking about forever is if we sas if I and cloud If I and all the APS go away, the data centers disappear in Vienna, where dominant, the data center is left out in the cold. So, you know, Pivotal was driving down that that path. They've done a lot of acquisitions, so love directionally where towns who's going time will tell whether they can play in that market. This is not a developer conference. We go to plenty of developer events, so, you know, that's you know, some of the places. I see you know, and and still, you know, >> narrator conference. You're right. Exactly Right. And just I want to get your thoughts, too, because you've been blocking heavily on this topic as well. Dev Ops in general, commenting on the Cube. You know, the reality and the reality, Uh, and the reality of situation from the the announcement. That's a vapor. They're doing some demos. They're really product directions. So product directions is always with VM. Where does it? It's not something that their shameful love, that's what they do. That's what they put out. It's not bakery >> company. It's a statement, A statement of >> direction. We were talking hybrid cloud in 2012 when I asked Pet guess it was a halfway house. He blew a gasket. And now, five years later, the gestation period for hybrid was that. But the end was happy to have the data center back in the back. In the play here, your thoughts on >> Yeah. So this conference is is, I think, a refreshing return to form. So, Vienna, where is as you say, this is an operators conference in Vienna. Where is for operators? It's not Four Dev's. There was a period there where cloud was scary And it was all this cloud native stuff in Vienna where tried to appeal to this new market, I guess tried to dress up and as something that it really wasn't and it didn't pull it off and we didn't It didn't feel right. And now Veum Way has decided that Well, no, actually, this is what they and where is about. And no one could be more Veum where than VM wear. So it's returning to being its best self. And I think you >> can software. They know software >> they know. So flick. So the addition of putting predict Enzo in and having communities in there, and it's to operate the software. So it's it's going to be in there an actual run on it, and they wanna have kubernetes baked into the sphere. So that now, yeah, we'll have new a new absent. Yeah, there might be SAS eps for the people who are consuming them, but they're gonna run somewhere. And now we could run them on van. Wait. Whether it's on Silent at the edge could be in the cloud your Veum wear on eight of us. >> David David so I want to get your thoughts just don't want to jump into because, you know, I love pivotal what they've done. I've always felt as a standalone company they probably couldn't compete with Amazon to scale what's going on in the other things. But bring it back in the fold in VM, where you mentioned this a couple of our interviews yesterday, Dave, and still you illuminate to to the fact of the cloud native world coming together. It's better inside VM wear because they can package pivotal and not have to bet the ranch on the outcome in the marketplace where this highly competitive statements out there so you get the business value of Pivotal. The upside now can be managed. Do your thoughts first, then go to date >> about Pivotal. Yeah, as >> an integrated, integrated is better for the industry than trying to bet the ranch on a pier play >> right? So, John, yesterday we had a little discussion about hybrid and multi cloud and still early about there, but the conversation of past five years ago was very different from the discussion. Today, Docker had a ripple effect with Containers and Veum. Where is addressing that and it made sense for Pivotal Cut to come home, if you will. They still have the Pivotal Labs group that can work with customers going through that transformation and a number of other pieces toe put together. But you ve m where is doing a good enough job to give customers the comfort that we can move you forward to the cloud. You don't have to abandon us and especially all those people that do VM Where is they don't have to be frozen where they are >> a business value. >> Well, I think you've got to start with the transaction and provide a historical context. So this goes back to what I used to call the misfit toys. The Federation. David Golden's taking bits and pieces of of of Dragon Pearl of assets in side of E, M. C and V M wear and then creating Pivotal out of whole cloth. They need an I P O. Michael Dell maintained 70% ownership of the company and 96% voting shares floated. The stock stock didn't do well, bought it back on 50 cents on the dollar. A so what the AIPO price was and then took a of Got a Brit, brought back a $4 billion asset inside of the M wear and paid $900 million for it. So it's just the brilliant financial transaction now, having said all that, what is the business value of this? You know, when I come to these shows, I'd liketo compare what they say in the messaging and the keynotes to what practitioners are saying in the practitioners last night were saying a couple of things. First of all, they're concerned about all the salmon. A like one. Practitioners said to me, Look, if it weren't for all these acquisitions that they announced last minute, what would we be hearing about here? It would have been NSX and V san again, so there's sort of a little concerns there. Some of the practitioners I talked to were really concerned about integration. They've done a good job with Nasasira, but some of the other acquisitions that they may have taken longer to integrate and customers are concerned, and we've seen this movie before. We saw the DMC. We certainly saw the tell. We're seeing it again now, at the end where Veum where? Well, they're very good at integrating companies. Sometimes that catches up to you. The last thing I'll say is we've been pushing You just mentioned it, Justin. On Dev's not a deaf show. Pivotal gives VM where the opportunity to whether it's a different show are an event within the event to actually attract the depths. But I would say in the multi cloud world, VM wears sitting in a good position. With the exception of developers pivotal, I think it's designed to solve that problem. Just tell >> your thoughts. >> Do you think that Veum, where is, is at risk of becoming a portfolio company just like a M A. M. C. Watts? Because it certainly looks at the moment to me like we look at all the different names for things, and I just look at the brand architecture of stuff. There are too many brands. There are too many product names, it's too confusing, and there's gonna have to be a culottes some point just to make it understandable for customers. Otherwise, we're just gonna end up with this endless sprawl, and we saw what the damage that did it. At present, I am saying >> it's a great point and Joseph Joe to cheese used to say that overlap is better than gaps, and I and I agree with him to appoint, you know better until it's not. And then Michael Dell came in and Bar came and said, Look, if we're gonna compete with Amazon's cost structure, we have to clean this mess up and that's what they've been doing it a lot of hard work on that. And so, yeah, they do risk that. I think if they don't do that integration, it's hard to do that. Integration, as you know, it takes time. Um, and so I have Right now. All looks good, right? Right down the middle. As you say, John, are >> multi cloud. Big topic gestation period is going to take five years to seven years. When the reality multi cloud a debate on Twitter last night, someone saying, I'm doing multi cloud today. I mean, we had Gelsinger's layout, the definition of multi cloud. >> Well, he laid out his definition definition. Everyone likes to define its. It's funny how, and we mentioned this is a stew and I earlier on the other set, cloud were still arguing about what cloud means exit always at multi cloud, which kind of multi cloud is a hybrid bowl over. And then you compare that to EJ computing, which computing was always going on. And then someone just came along and gave it a name and everyone just went, huh? OK, and go on with their lives. And so why is cloud so different and difficult for people to agree on what the thing is? >> There's a lot of money being made and lost, That's why >> right day the thing I've said is for multi cloud to be a real thing, it needs to be more valuable to a customer than the sum of its pieces on. And, you know, we know we're gonna be an Amazon reinvent later this year we will be talking, you know? Well, they will not be talking multi cloud. We might be talking about it, but >> they'll be hinting to hybrid cloud may or may not say >> that, you know, hybrid is okay in their world with outpost and everything they're doing in there partnering with VM wear. But you know, the point I've been looking at here is you know, management of multi vendor was atrocious. And, you know, why do we think we're going to any better. David, who hired me nine years ago. It was like I could spend my entire career saying, Management stinks and security needs to be, >> you know, So I want to share lawyers definition. They published in Wicked Bon on Multiply Multi Cloud Hybrid Cloudy, Putting together True Hybrid Cloud Multiply Any application application service can run on any node of the hybrid cloud without rewriting, re compiling or retesting. True hybrid cloud architectures have a consistent set of hardware. Software service is a P I is with integrated network security data and control planes that are native to and display the characteristics of public cloud infrastructure is a service. These attributes could be identically resident on other hybrid nodes independent of location, for example, including on public clouds on Prem or at the edge. That ain't happening. It's just not unless you have considered outposts cloud a customer azure stack. Okay, and you're gonna have collections of those. So that vision that he laid out, I just I think it's gonna >> be David. It's interesting because, you know, David and I have some good debates on this. I said, Tell me a company that has been better at than VM wear about taking a stack and letting it live on multiple hardware's. You know, I've got some of those cars are at a big piece last weekend talking about, you know, when we had to check the bios of everything and when blade Service rolled out getting Veum whereto work 15 years ago was really tough. Getting Veum were to work today, but the >> problem is you're gonna have outposts. You're gonna have project dimensions installed. You're gonna have azure stacks installed. You're gonna have roll your own out there. And so yeah, VM where is gonna work on all >> those? And it's not gonna be a static situation because, you know, when I talk to customers and if they're using V M where cloud on AWS, it's not a lift and shift and leave it there, Gonna modernize their things that could start using service is from the public cloud and they might migrate some of these off of the VM where environment, which I think, is the thing that I am talking to customers and hearing about that It's, you know, none of these situations are Oh, I just put it there and it's gonna live there for years. It's constantly moving and changing, and that is a major threat to VM wears multi clouds, >> Traffic pushes. Is it technically feasible without just insanely high degrees of homogeneity? That's that's the question. >> I I don't think it is and or not. I don't think it's a reasonable thing to expect anyway, because any enterprise you have any M and a activity, and all of a sudden you've got more than one that's always been true, and it will always be true. So if someone else makes a different choice and you buy them, then we'll have both. >> So maybe that's not a fair definition, but that's kind of what what? One could infer that. I think the industry is implying that that is hybrid multi club because that's the nirvana that everybody wants. >> Yeah, the only situation I can see where that could maybe come true would be in something like communities where you're running things on as an abstraction on top off everything else, and that that is a common abstraction that everyone agrees on and builds upon. But we're already seeing how that works out in real life. If >> I'm >> using and Google Antos. I can't easily move it to P. K s or open shift. There's English Kubernetes, as Joe Beta says, is not a magic layer, and everybody builds. On top of >> it, is it? Turns out it's actually not that easy. >> Well, and plus people are taken open source code, and then they're forking it and it building their own proprietary systems and saying, Hey, here's our greatest thing. >> Well, the to the to the credit of CNC, if Kubernetes. Does have a kind of standardized, agreed to get away away from that particular issue. So that's where it stands a better chance and say unfortunately, open stack. So because we saw a bit of that change of way, want to go this way? And we want to go that way. So there's a lot of seeing and zagging, at least with communities. You have a kind of common framework. But even just the implementation of that writing it, >> I love Cooper. I think I've been a big fan of committed from Day one. I think it's a great industry initiative. Having it the way it's rolling out is looking very good. I like it a lot. The comments that we heard on the Cube of Support. Some of my things that I'm looking at is for C N C s Q. Khan Come coop con Coming up is what happened with Kay, native and SDO because that's what I get to see the battleground for above Goober Netease. You see, that's what differentiates again. That's where that the vendors are gonna start to differentiate who they are. So I think carbonates. It could be a great thing. And I think what I learned here was virtualization underneath Kubernetes. It doesn't matter if you want to run a lot. Of'em Furat scale No big deal run Cooper's on top. You want to run in that bare metal? God bless you, >> Go for it. I think this use cases for both. >> That's why I particularly like Tenzer is because for those customers who wanna have a bit of this, cupidity is I don't want to run it myself. It's too hard. But if I trust Vienna where to be able to run that in to upgrade it and give me all of the goodness about operating it in the same way that I do the end where again we're in and I'll show. So now I can have stuff I already know in love, and I can answer incriminating on top of it. >> All right, But who's gonna mess up Multi clouds do. Who's the vendor? I'm not >> even saying it s so you can't mess up something that >> who's gonna think vision, this vision of multi cloud that the entire industry is putting forth who's gonna throw a monkey? The rich? Which vendor? Well, screw it. So >> you know, licensing usually can cause issues. You know, our friend Corey Crane with a nice article about Microsoft's licensing changes there. You know, there are >> lots of Amazon's plays. Oh, yeah. Okay. Amazon is gonna make it. >> A multi clock is not in the mob, >> but yet how could you do multi cloud without Amazon? >> They play with >> control. My the chessboard on my line has been Amazon is in every multi cloud because if you've got multiple clouds, there's a much greater than likely chance >> I haven't been. You know, my feeling is in looking at the history of how multi vendor of all from the I T industry from proprietary network operating systems, many computers toe open systems, D c P I P Web, etcetera. What's going on now is very interesting, and I think the sea so ce of the canary in the coal mine, not Cee Io's because they like multi vendor. They want multiple clouds. They're comfortable that they got staff for that si sos have pressure, security. They're the canary in the coal mine and all the seasons lights, while two are all saying multi clouds b s because they're building stacks internally and they want to create their own technology for security reasons and then build a P eyes and make a P. I's the supplier relationship and saying, Hey, supplier, if you want to work with me, me support my stack I think that is an interesting indication. What that means is that the entire multi cloud thing means we're pick one clown build on, have a backup. We'll deal with multiple clouds if there's workloads in there but primary one cloud, we'll be there. And I think that's gonna be the model. Yes, still be multiple clouds and you got azure and get office 3 65 That's technically multi cloud, >> but I want to make a point. And when pats on we joke about The cul de sac is hybrid cloud a cul de sac, and you've been very respectful and basically saying Yap had okay, But But But you were right, Really. What's hybrid would show me a hybrid cloud. It's taken all this time to gestate you where you see Federated Applications. It's happening. You have on prim workloads, and you have a company that has public cloud workloads. But they're not. Hybrid is >> the region. Some we'll talk about it, even multi. It is an application per cloud or a couple of clouds that you do it, but it's right. Did he follow the sun thing? That we might get there 15 years ago? Is >> no. You're gonna have to insist that this >> data moving around, consistent >> security, governance and all the organizational edicts across all those platforms >> the one place, like all week for that eventually and this is a long way off would be if you go with Serverless where it's all functions and now it's about service composition and I don't care where it lives. I'm just consuming a service because I have some data that I want to go on process and Google happens to have the best machine learning that I need to do it on that data. Also use that service. And then when I actually want to run the workload and host it somewhere else, I drop it into a CD in with an application that happens to run in AWS. >> Guys wrapping up day to buy It's just gonna ask, What is that animal? It must be an influence because hasn't said a word. >> Thistles. The famous blue cow She travels everywhere with me, >> has an INSTAGRAM account. >> She used to have an instagram. She now she doesn't. She just uses my Twitter account just in time to time. >> I learned a lot about you right now. Thanks for sharing. Great to have you. Great as always, Great commentary. Thanks for coming with Bay three tomorrow. Tomorrow. I want to dig into what's in this for Del Technologies. What's the play there when I unpacked, that is tomorrow on day three million. If there's no multi cloud and there's a big tam out there, what's in it for Michael Dell and BM where it's Crown Jewel as the main ingredient guys, thanks for coming stupid in Manchester words, David Want them? John, Thanks for watching day, too. Inside coverage here are wrap up. Thanks for watching

>> From the Silicon Angle Media office in Boston Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now here's your host, Dave Vellante. (upbeat music) >> Hello everybody, this is Dave Vallante with Stu Miniman and we're going to take a look back at ten years of theCUBE at VMworld and look forward to see what's coming next. So, as I say, this is theCUBE's 10th year at VMworld, that's VMworld, of course 2019. And Stu, if you think about the VMware of 2010, when we first started, it's a dramatically different VMware today. Let's look back at 2010. Paul Maritz was running VMware, he set forth the vision of the software mainframe last decade, well, what does that mean, software mainframe? Highly integrated hardware and software that can run any workload, any application. That is the gauntlet that Tucci and Maritz laid down. A lot of people were skeptical. Fast forward 10 years, they've actually achieved that, I mean, essentially, it is the standard operating system, if you will, in the data center, but there's a lot more to the story. But you remember, at the time, Stu, it was a very complex environment. When something went wrong, you needed guys with lab coats to come in a figure out, you know, what was going on, the I/O blender problem, storage was a real bottleneck. So let's talk about that. >> Yeah, Dave, so much. First of all, hard to believe, 10 years, you know, think back to 2010, it was my first time being at VMworld, even though I started working with VMware back in 2002 when it was like, you know, 100, 150 person company. Remember when vMotion first launched. But that first show that we went to, Dave, was in San Francisco, and most people didn't know theCUBE, heck, we were still figuring out exactly what theCUBE will be, and we brought in a bunch of our friends that were doing the CloudCamps in Silicon Valley, and we were talking about cloud. And there was this gap that we saw between, as you said, the challenges we were solving with VMware, which was fixing infrastructure, storage and networking had been broken, and how were we going to make sure that that worked in a virtual environment even better? But there were the early thought leaders that were talking about that future of cloud computing, which, today in 2019, looks like we had a good prediction. And, of course, where VMware is today, we're talking all about cloud. So, so many different eras and pieces and research that we did, you know, hundreds and hundreds of interviews that we've done at that show, it's definitely been one of our flagship shows and one of our favorite for guests and ecosystems and so much that we got to dig into at that event. >> So Tod Nielsen, who was the President and probably COO at the time, talked about the ecosystem. For every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 was spent on the ecosystem. VMware was a very, even though they were owned by EMC, they were very, sort of, neutral to the ecosystem. You had what we called the storage cartel. It was certainly EMC, you know, but NetApp was right there, IBM, HP, you know, Dell had purchased EqualLogic, HDS was kind of there as well. These companies were the first to get the APIs, you remember, the VASA VAAI. So, we pushed VMware at the time, saying, "Look, you guys got a storage problem." And they said, "Well, we don't have a lot of resources, "we're going to let the ecosystem solve the problem, "here's an API, you guys figure it out." Which they largely did, but it took a long time. The other big thing you had in that 2010 timeframe was storage consolidation. You had the bidding war between Dell and HP, which, ultimately, HP, under Donatelli's leadership, won that bidding war and acquired 3PAR >> Bought 3PAR >> for 2.4, 2.5 billion, it forced Dell to buy Compellent. Subsequently, Isilon was acquired, Data Domain was acquired by EMC. So you had this consolidation of the early 2000s storage startups and then, still, storage was a major problem back then. But the big sea change was, two things happened in 2012. Pat Gelsinger took over as CEO, and VMware acquired Nicira, beat Cisco to the punch. Why did that change everything? >> Yeah, Dave, we talked a lot about storage, and how, you know, the ecosystem was changing this. Nicira, we knew it was a big deal. When I, you know, I talked to my friends that were deep in networking and I talked with Nicira and was majorly impressed with what they were doing. But this heterogeneous, and what now is the multi-cloud environment, networking needs to play a critical role. You see, you know, Cisco has clearly targeted that environment and Nicira had some really smart people and some really fundamental technology underneath that would allow networking to go just beyond the virtual machine where it was before, the vSwitch. So, you know, that expansion, and actually, it took a little while for, you know, the Nicira acquisition to run into NSX and that product to gain maturity, and to gain adoption, but as Pat Gelsinger has said more recently, it is one of the key drivers for VMware, getting them beyond just the hypervisor itself. So, so much is happening, I mean, Dave, I look at the swings as, you know, you said, VMware didn't have enough resources, they were going to let the ecosystem do it. In the early days, it was, I chose a server provider, and, oh yeah, VMware kind of plays in it. So VMware really grew how much control and how much power they had in buying decisions, and we're going through more of that change now, as to, as they're partnering we're going to talk about AWS and Microsoft and Google as those pieces. And Pat driving that ship. The analogy we gave is, could Pat do for VMware what Intel had done for a long time, which is, you have a big ecosystem, and you slowly start eating away at some of that other functionality without alienating that ecosystem. And to Pat's credit, it's actually something that he's done quite well. There's been some ebbs and flows, there's pushback in the community. Those that remember things like the "vTax," when they rolled that out. You know, there's certain features that the rolled into the hypervisor that have had parts of the ecosystem gripe a little bit, but for the most part, VMware is still playing well with the ecosystem, even though, after the Dell acquisition of EMC, you know, we'll talk about this some more, that relationship between Dell and VMware is tighter than it ever was in the EMC days. >> So that led to the Software-Defined Data Center, which was the big, sort of, vision. VMware wanted to do to storage and networking what it had done to compute. And this started to set up the tension between with VMware and Cisco, which, you know, lives on today. The other big mega trend, of course, was flash storage, which was coming into play. In many ways, that whole API gymnastics was a Band-Aid. But the other big piece if it is Pat Gelsinger was much more willing to integrate, you know, some of the EMC technologies, and now Dell technologies, into the VMware sort of stack. >> Right, so Dave, you talked about all of those APIs, Vvols was a huge multi-year initiative that VMware worked on and all of the big storage players were talking about how that would allow them to deeply integrate and make it virtualization-aware storage your so tense we come out on their own and try to do that. But if you look at it, VVols was also what enabled VMware to do vSAN, and that is a little bit of how they can try to erode in some of the storage piece, because vSAN today has the most customers in the hyperconverged infrastructure space, and is keeping to grow, but they still have those storage partnerships. It didn't eliminate it, but it definitely adds some tension. >> Well it is important, because under EMC's ownership it was sort of a let 1,000 flowers bloom sort of strategy, and today you see Jeff Clarke coming in and consolidating the portfolios, saying, "Look, let's let VMware go hard with vSAN." So you're seeing a different type of governance structure, we'll talk about that. 2013 was a big year. That's the year they brought in Sanjay Poonen, they did the AirWatch acquisition, they took on what the industry called VDI, what VMware called EUC, End-User Computing. Citrix was the dominant player in that space, VMware was fumbling, frankly. Sanjay Poonen came in, the AirWatch acquisition, now, VMware is a leader in that space, so that was big. The other big thing in 2013 was, you know, the famous comment by Carl Eschenbach about, you know, if we lose to the book seller, we'll all lose. VMware came out with it's cloud strategy, vCloud Air. I was there with the Wall Street analyst that day listening to Pat explain that and we were talking afterwards to a number of the Wall Street analysts saying, "This really doesn't make a lot of sense." And then they sort of retreated on that, saying that it was going to be an accelerant, and it just was basically a failed cloud strategy. >> And Dave, that 2013 is also when they spun out Cloud Foundry and founded Pivital. So, you know, this is where they took some of the pieces from EMC, the Greenplum, and they took some of the pieces from VMware, Spring and the Cloud Foundation, and put those together. As we speak right now, there was just an SEC Filing that VMware might suck them back in. Where I look at that, back in 2013, there was a huge gap between what VMware was doing on the infrastructure side and what Cloud Foundry was doing on the application modernization standpoint, they had bought the Pivotal Labs piece to help people understand new programming models and everything along those lines. Today, in 2019, if you look at where VMware is going, the changes happening in containerization, the changes happening from the application down, they need to come together. The Achilles heel that I have seen from VMware for a long time is that VMware doesn't have enough a tie to or help build the applications. Microsoft owns the applications, Oracle owns the applications. You know, there are all the ISVs that own the applications, and Pivotal, if they bring that back into VMware it can help, but it made sense at the time to kind of spin that out because it wasn't synergies between them. >> It was what I called at the time a bunch of misfit toys. And so it was largely David Goulden's engineering of what they called The Federation. And now you're seeing some more engineering, financial engineering, of having VMware essentially buy another, you know, Dell Silver Lake asset, which, you know, drove the stock price up 77% in a day that the Dow dropped 800 points. So I guess that works, kind of funny money. The other big trend sort of in that mid-part of this decade, hyperconverged, you know, really hit. Nutanix, who was at one point a strong partner of both VMware and Dell, was sort of hitting its groove swing. Fast forward to 2019, different situation, Nutanix really doesn't have a presence there. You know, people are looking at going beyond hyperconverged. So there's sort of the VMware ecosystem, sort of friendly posture has changed, they point fingers at each other. VMware says, "Well, it's Nutanix's fault." Nutanix will say it's VMware's fault. >> Right, so Dave, I pointed out, the Achilles heel for VMware might be that they don't have the closest tie to the application, but their greatest strength is, really, they are really the data center operating system, if you will. When we wrote out our research on Server SAN was before vSAN had gotten launched. It was where Nutanix, Scale Computing, SimpliVity, you know, Pivot3, and a few others were early in that space, but we stated in our research, if Microsoft and VMware get serious about that space, they can dominate. And we've seen, VMware came in strong, they do work with their partnerships. Of course, Dell, with the VxRail is their largest solution, but all of the other server providers, you know, have offerings and can put those together. And Microsoft, just last year, they kind of rebranded some of the Azure Stack as HCI and they're going strong in that space. So, absolutely, you know, strong presence in the data center platform, and that's what they're extending into their hybrid and multi-cloud offering, the VMware Cloud Solutions. >> So I want to get to some of the trends today, but just real quick, let's go through some of this. So 2015 was the big announcement in the fall where Dell was acquiring EMC, so we entered, really, the Dell era of VMware ownership in 2016. And the other piece that happened, really 2016 in the fall, but it went GA 2017, was the announcement AWS and VMware as the preferred partnership. Yes, AWS had a partnership with IBM, they've subsequently >> VMware had a partnership >> Yeah, sorry, VMware has a partnership with IBM for their cloud, subsequently VMware has done deals with Google and Microsoft, so there's, we now have entered the multi-cloud hybrid world. VMware capitulated on cloud, smart move, cleaned up its cloud strategy, cleaned that AirWatch mess. AWS also capitulated on hybrid. It's a term that they would never use, they don't use it necessarily a lot today, but they recognize that On Prem is a viable portion of the marketplace. And so now we've entered this new era of cloud, hybrid cloud, containers is the other big trend. People said, "Containers are going to really hurt VMware." You know, the jury's still out on that, VMware sort of pushes back on that. >> And Dave, just to put a point on that, you know, everybody, including us, spent a lot of time looking at this VMware Cloud on AWS partnership, and what does it mean, especially, to the parent, you know, Dell? How do they make that environment? And you've pointed out, Dave, that while VMware gets in those environments and gives themselves a very strong cloud strategy, AWS is the key partner, but of course, as you said, Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud, and all the server providers, we have a number of them including CenturyLink and Rackspace that they're partnering with, but we have to wait a little while before Amazon, when they announced their outpost solutions, VMware is a critical software piece, and you've got two flavors of the hardware. You can run the full AWS Stack, just like what they're running in their data center, but the alternative, of course, is VMware software running on Dell hardware. And we think that if VMware hadn't come in with a strong position with Amazon and their 600,000 customers, we're not sure that Amazon would have said, "Oh yeah, hey, you can run that same software stack "that you're running, but run some different hardware." So that's a good place for Dell to get in the environment, it helps kind of close out that story of VMware, Dell, and AWS and how the pieces fit together. >> Yeah, well so, by the way, earlier this week I privately mentioned to a Dell executive that one of the things I thought they should do was fold Pivotal into VMware. By the way, I think they should go further. I think they should look at RSA and Dell Boomi and SecureWorks, make VMware the mothership of software, and then really tie in Dell's hardware to VMware. That seems to me, Stu, the direction that they're going to try to gain an advantage on the balance of the ecosystem. I think VMware now is in a position of strength with, what, 5 or 600,000 customers. It feels like it's less ecosystem friendly than it used to be. >> Yeah, Dave, there's no doubt about it. HPE and IBM, who were two of the main companies that helped with VMware's ascendancy, do a lot of other things beyond VMware. Of course, IBM bought Red Hat, it is a key counterbalance to what VMware is doing in the multi-cloud. And Dave, to your point, absolutely, if you look at Dell's cloud strategy, they're number one offering is VMware, VMware cloud on Dell. Dell as the project dimension piece. All of these pieces do line up. I'll say, some of those pieces, absolutely, I would say, make sense to kind of pull in and shell together. I know one of the reasons they keep the security pieces at arm's length is just, you know, when something goes wrong in the security space, and it's not of the question of if, it's a question of when, they do have that arm's length to be able to keep that out and be able to remediate a little bit when something happens. >> So let's look at some of the things that we're following today. I think one of the big ones is, how will containers effect customer spending on VMware? We know people are concerned about the vTax. We also know that they're concerned about lock-in. And so, containers are this major force. Can VMware make containers a tailwind, or is it a headwind for them? >> So you look at all the acquisitions that they've made lately, Dave, CloudHealth is, from a management standpoint, in the public cloud. Heptio and Bitnami, targeting that cloud native space. Pair that with Cloud Foundry and you see, VMware and Pivotal together trying to go all-in on Kubernetes. So those 600,000 customers, VMware wants to be the group that educates you on containerization, Kubernetes, you know, how to build these new environments. For, you know, a lot of customers, it's attractive for them to just stay. "I have a relationship, "I have an enterprise licensing agreement, "I'm going to stay along with that." The question I would have is, if I want to do something in a modern way, is VMware really the best partner to choose from? Do they have the cost structure? A lot of these environments set up, you know, it's open source base, or I can work with my public cloud providers there, so why would I partner with VMware? Sure, they have a lot of smart people and they have expertise and we have a relationship, but what differentiates VMware, and is it worth paying for that licensing that they have, or will I look at alternatives? But as VMware grows their hybrid and multi-cloud deployments they absolutely are on the short list of, you know, strategic partners for most customers. >> The other big thing that we're watching is multi-cloud. I have said over and over that multi-cloud has largely been a symptom of multi-vendor. It's not necessarily, to date anyway, been a strategy of customers. Having said that, issues around security, governance, compliance have forced organizations and boards to say, "You know what, we need IT more involved, "let's make multi-cloud part of our strategy, "not only for governance and compliance "and making sure it adheres to the corporate edicts, "but also to put the right workload on the right cloud." So having some kind of strategy there is important. Who are the players there? Obviously VMware, I would say, right now, is the favorite because it's coming from a position of strength in the data center. Microsoft with it's software state, Cisco coming at it from a standpoint of network strength. Google, with Anthos, that announcement earlier this year, and, of course, Red Hat with IBM. Who's the company that I didn't mention in that list? >> Well, of course, you can't talk about cloud, Dave, without talking about AWS. So, as you stated before, they don't really want to talk about hybrid, hey, come on, multi-cloud, why would you do this? But any customer that has a multi-cloud environment, they've got AWS. And the VMware-AWS partnership is really interesting to watch. It will be, you know, where will Amazon grow in this environment as they find their customers are using multiple solutions? Amazon has lots of offerings to allow you leverage Kubernetes, but, for the most part, the messaging is still, "We are the best place for you, "if you do everything on us, "you're going to get better pricing "and all of these environments." But as you've said, Dave, we never get down to that homogeneous, you know, one vendor solution. It tends to be, you know, IT has always been this heterogeneous mess and you have different groups that purchase different things for different reasons, and we have not seen, yet, public cloud solving that for a lot of customers. If anything we often have many more silos in the clouds than we had in the data center before. >> Okay. Another big story that we're following, big trend, is the battle for networking. NSX, the software networking component, and then Cisco, who's got a combination of, obviously, hardware and software with ACI. You know, Stu, I got to say, Cisco a very impressive company. You know, 60+% market share, being able to hold that share for a long time. I've seen a lot of companies try to go up against Cisco. You know, the industry's littered with failures. It feels, however, like NSX is a disruptive force that's very hard for Cisco to deal with in a number of dimensions. We talked about multi-cloud, but networking in general. Cisco's still a major player, still, you know, owns the hardware infrastructure, obviously layering in its own software-defined strategy. But that seems to be a source of tension between the two companies. What's the customer perspective? >> Yeah, so first of all, Dave, Cisco, from a hardware perspective, is still going strong. There are some big competitors. Arista has been doing quite well into getting in, especially, a high performance, high speed environments, you know, Jayshree Ullal and that team, you know, very impressive public company that's doing quite well. >> Service providers that do really well there. >> Absolutely, but, absolutely, software is eating the world and it is impacting networking. Even when you look at Cisco's overall strategy, it is in the future. Cisco is not a networking company, they are a software company. The whole DevNet, you know, group that they have there is helping customers modernize, what we were talking about with Pivotal. Cisco is going there and helping customers create those new environments. But from a customer standpoint, they want simplicity. If my VMware is a big piece of my environment, I've probably started using NSX, NSX-T, some of these environments. As I go to my service providers, as I go to multi-cloud, that NSX piece inside my VMware cloud foundation starts to grow. I remember, Dave, a few years back, you know, Pat Gelsinger got up on a stage and was like, "This is the biggest collection of network administrators that we've ever seen!" And everybody's looking around and they're like, "Where? "We're virtualization people. "Oh, wait, just because we've got vNICs and vSwitches "and things like that." It still is a gap between kind of a hardcore networking people and the software state. But just like we see on storage, Dave, it's not like vSAN, despite it's thousands and thousands of customers, it is not the dominant player in storage. It's a big player, it's a great revenue stream, and it is expanding VMware beyond their core vSphere solutions. >> Back to Cisco real quickly. One of the things I'm very impressed with Cisco is the way in which they've developed infrastructures. Code with the DevNet group, how CCIEs are learning Python, and that's a very powerful sort of trend to watch. The other thing we're watching is VMware-AWS. How will it affect spending, you know, near-term, mid-term, long-term? Clearly it's been a momentum, you know, tailwind, for VMware today, but the questions remains, long-term, where will customers place their bets? Where will the spending be? We know that cloud is growing dramatically faster than On Prem, but it appears, at least in the near- to mid-term, for one, two, maybe three more cycles, maybe indefinitely, that the VMware-AWS relationship has been a real positive for VMware. >> Yeah, Dave, I think you stated it really well. When I talked to customers, they were a bit frozen a couple of years ago. "Ah, I know I need to do more in cloud, "but I have this environment, what do I do? "Do I stay with VMware, do I have to make a big change." And what VMware did, is they really opened things up and said, "Look, no, you can embrace cloud, and we're there for you. "We will be there to help be that bridge to the future, "if you will, so take your VMware environment, "do VMware cloud in lots of places, "and we will enable that." What we know today, the stat that we hear all the time, the old 80/20 we used to talk about was 80% keeping the lights on, now the 80% we hear about is, there's only 20% of workloads that are in public cloud today. It doesn't mean that that other 80% is going to flip overnight, but if you look over the next five to ten years, it could be a flip from 80/20 to 20/80. And as that shift happens, how much of that estate will stay under VMware licenses? Because the day after AWS made the announcement of VMware cloud on AWS, they offered some migration services. So if you just want to go on natively on the public cloud, you can do that. And Microsoft, Google, everybody has migration services, so use VMware for what I need to, but I might go more native cloud for some of those other environments. So we know it is going to continue to be a mix. Multi-cloud is what customers are doing today, and multi- and hybrid-cloud is what customers will be doing five years from now. >> The other big question we're watching is Outposts. Will VMware and Outposts get a larger share of wallet as a result of that partnership at the expense of other vendors? And so, remains to be seen, Outposts grabbed a lot of attention, that whole notion of same control plane, same hardware, same software, same data plane On Prem as in the Data Center, kind of like Oracle's same-same approach, but it's seemingly a logical one. Others are responding. Your thoughts on whether or not these two companies will dominate or the industry will respond or an equilibrium. >> Right, so first of all, right, that full same-same full stack has been something we've been talking about now, feels like for 10 years, Dave, with Oracle, IBM had a strategy on that, and you see that, but one of the things with VMware has strong strength. What they have over two decades of experiences on is making sure that I can have a software stack that can actually live in heterogeneous environments. So in the future, if we talk about if Kubernetes allows me to live in a multi-cloud environment, VMware might be able to give me some flexibility so that I can move from one hardware stack to another as I move from data centers to service providers to public clouds. So, absolutely, you know, one to watch. And VMware is smart. Amazon might be their number one partner, but they're lining up everywhere. When you see Sanjay Poonen up on stage with Thomas Kurian at Google Cloud talking about how Anthos in your data center very much requires VMware. You see Sachi Nodella up on stage talking about these kind of VMware partnerships. VMware is going to make sure that they live in all of these environments, just like they lived on all of the servers in the data center in the past. >> The other last two pieces that I want to touch on, and they're related is, as a result of Dell's ownership of VMware, are customers going to spend more with Dell? And it's clear that Dell is architecting a very tight relationship. You can see, first of all, Michael Dell putting Jeff Clarke in charge of everything Dell was brilliant, because, in a way, you know, Pat was kind of elevated as this superstar. And Michael Dell is the founder, and he's the leader of the company. So basically what he's created is this team of rivals. Now, you know, Jeff and Pat, they've worked together for decades, but very interesting. We saw them up on stage together, you know, last year, well I guess at Dell Technologies World, it was kind of awkward, but so, I love it. I love that tension of, It's very clear to me that Dell wants to integrate more tightly with VMware. It's the clear strategy, and they don't really care at this point if it's at the expense of the ecosystem. Let the ecosystem figure it out themselves. So that's one thing we're watching. Related to that is long-term, are customers going to spend more of their VMware dollars in the public cloud? Come back to Dell for a second. To me, AWS is by far the number one competitor of Dell, you know, that shift to the cloud. Clearly they've got other competitors, you know, NetApp, Huawei, you know, on and on and on, but AWS is the big one. How will cloud spending effect both Dell and AWS long-term? The numbers right now suggest that cloud's going to keep growing, $35, $40 billion run-rate company growing at 40% a year, whereas On Prem stuff's growing, you know, at best, single digits. So that trend really does favor the cloud guys. I talked to a Gartner analyst who tracks all this stuff. I said, "Can AWS continue to grow? It's so big." He said, "There's no reason, they can't stop. "The market's enormous." I tend to agree, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, first of all, on the AWS, absolutely, I agree, Dave. They are still, if you look at the overall IT spend, AWS is still a small piece. They have, that lever that they have and the influence they have on the marketplace greatly outweighs the, you know, $30, $31 billion that they're at today, and absolutely they can keep growing. The one point, I think, what we've seen, the best success that Dell is having, it is the Dell and VMware really coming together, product development, go to market, the field is tightly, tightly, tightly alligned. The VxRail was the first real big push, and if they can do the same thing with the vCloud foundation, you know, VMware cloud on Dell hardware, that could be a real tailwind for Dell to try to grow faster as an infrastructure company, to grow more like the software companies or even the cloud companies will. Because we know, when we've run the numbers, Dave, private cloud is going to get a lot of dollars, even as public cloud continues its growth. >> I think the answer comes down to a couple things. Because right now we know that 80% of the spend and stall base is On Prem, 20% in the cloud. We're entering now the cloud 2.0, which introduces hybrid-cloud, On Prem, you know, connecting to clouds, multi-cloud, Kubernetes. So what it comes down to, to me Stu, is to what degree can Dell, VMware, and the ecosystem create that cloud experience in a hybrid world, number one? And number two, how will they be able to compete from a cost-structure standpoint? Dell's cost-structure is better than anybody else's in the On Prem world. I would argue that AWS's cost-structure is better, you know, relative to Dell, but remains to be seen. But really those two things, the cloud experience and the cost-structure, can they hold on, and how long can they hold on to that 80%? >> All right, so Dave here's the question I have for you. What are we talking about when we're talking about Dell plus VMware and even add in Pivotal? It's primarily hardware plus software. Who's the biggest in that multi-cloud space? It's IBM plus Red Hat, which you've stated emphatically, "This is a services play, and IBM has, you know, "just got, you know, services in their DNA, "and that could help supercharge where Red Hat's going "and the modernization." So is that a danger for Dell? If they bring in Pivotal, do they need to really ramp up that services? How do they do that? >> Yeah, I don't think it's a zero sum game, but I also don't think there's, it's five winners. I think that the leader, VMware right now would be my favorite, I think it's going to do very well. I think Red Hat has got, you know, a lot of good market momentum, I think they've got a captive install base, you know, with IBM and its large outsourcing business, and I think they can do pretty well, and I think number three could do okay. I think the other guys struggle. But it's so early, right now, in the hybrid-cloud world and the multi-cloud world, that if I were any one of those five I'd be going hard after it. We know Google's got the dollars, we know Microsoft has the software state, so I can see Microsoft actually doing quite well in that business, and could emerge as the, maybe they're not a long-shot right now, but they could be a, you know, three to one, four to one leader that comes out as the favorite. So, all right, we got to go. Stu, thanks very much for your insights. And thank you for watching and listening. We will be at VMworld 2019. Three days of coverage on theCUBE. Thanks for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> Welcome back I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program first time guest, founder and CEO of a start-up, solo.io, Idit Levine. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> All right, so one of the things we were talking in the open. Lauren Cooney, who you know, and I were talking about, well, you know, Cloud Foundry. We've been talking about digital transformation. The enterprise for years, but there's always these new technologies. It was, you know, Kubernetes came this wave, now server-less is the wave, and you know, Amazon's kind of overarching, you know, discussion in the market place. That's why I'm glad to bring you in because your company, a startup, plays across a number of these, you know, emerging spaces in the Cloud Foundry space. So, give our audience a little bit about your background and what led to the foundation of solo.io. >> Yeah, thanks. So I was in start-up all my life. I worked in DynamicOps, we got acquired by VMWare, so vRealize, if you remember. And then I moved to another start-up, got inquired by Verizon, so cloud switch, who was moving back in the day from micro, from on prem to off prem. And then I moved to Dell EMC, to the city office and that was great because what I was doing was basically started the dojo of Cloud Foundry. So, me and Ryan Gallagher, if you know him, and Patrick Dennis, we are the three who started it and we basically co-located with the Cloud Foundry team and we worked very, very closely with them. And what we did, what I was doing a lot was bringing in innovation so we created some opensource projects like Key Unique if you heard about it about UniCare, you know, building and running UniCare. We worked with a lot of the ecosystem and the reason we started Solo is because I felt, I really feel, I really felt that the EMC is a great place but that it sometimes slow you down because of the big organization and I felt that we can do much faster outside. So that's why we opened, we started Solo, and all the purpose with Solo is basically playing two tracks. One of them is we really, really want people to use our product, so we want to target the people who has the problem, which is the enterprise. So that's where we're really, really targeting to help them move to what we really master which is the opensource community, so all the innovation. So, that's exactly what we're doing, basically helping them to take their monolithic application, move them to microservices and to Serverless, but by using very, very unique and innovative technology like Envoy and a lot of others. >> Okay, so we hear a lot of times it's you know, of course, companies, they need to move faster. They need to go through this transformation. It's the API economy. And that's, I think, where Gloo fits in there. So Gloo is spelled G-L-O-O, >> Right. >> What's a function gateway? How does this help with, kind of, you know, is it API Sprawl these days? Or, you know, all these various services. You know, how is this the glue that brings everything together? >> So as I said, we're working in two ecosystems, right? The first one is the enterprise. So the main use case that we are trying to solve as I said is the movement. We wanted to make sure that people will be able to take the monolithic and at least extend them to microservices like Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes, and to Serverless, and also in the free time to kind of like move it. So that was kind of like our purpose. But we needed some technology for that, and we looked outside and discovered that the first thing that we needed is probably a very good API gateway. But it need to route on the function level, and it need to discover the function, and a lot of technology that just wasn't exist back then. So what we did was basically build one, which is Gloo. That's the first thing that we needed because we had no choice. There wasn't anything that actually we seriously, and trust me, and looking very well of all the opensource project, there's nothing like what we built out there, in terms of the quality of the technology and what we're capable of doing. So that's why we built it. We didn't plan to make it a product, but that was the purpose. And the second thing. Now we're building more stuff, and we need maybe to extend to service-match, or function-match, like we call it. Again, not because we want to. Because we have no choice. Right? So this is not a core product, but it's really, we're building is about, we're targeting everything that's related to this use case and we're trying to move. >> Okay, so Google and Microsoft in their keynotes talked about an API gateway, opensource project, I hear service-match, I'm thinking about ISDL. How does Gloo fit-- >> So as I said, there's a beautiful, we are not competing because as I said, at the beginning, my purpose, look, I will look at the situation. That's how somebody can use it. But they're just not moving fast enough for us as a startup. So we had to actually create it. Now, when we created it, we created it specifically to our use case, right? We needed the function, that we knew that our purpose was to take all that, those ecosystems of monolithic, microservices, and Serverless, and look and see, what is the smallest unit of compute that's common between them, and cut everything to it, and that's the function. So basically, what we're doing, we're taking all these ecosystems, cut everything to function, and then reassemble a movement between them. That's something that they just didn't give us, so we had to build it. But the beauty of it is because we are, you know, we are really innovative and that's what we know how to do, we decided to leverage the opensource, so for instance is build on Envoy, right, because it is the best proxy that exists today. And we extended it, because we needed some functionalities, so we created a lot of filter, right? Because it was very important to us to make Envoy basically have this functionality. So we are not competing with none of them, because mainly, that's not what we're doing. We're just focusing on the use case. But theoretically, if you're looking at API gateway, I will say hands down we're probably the best that exists out there, which is, that's not what we started with. >> Yeah, it's really smart, coming, you know, no small startup's going to be, oh, well, we're going to, you know, in Silicon Valley maybe they think they're going to take down the giants and break the world and competing is everything, but I like you actually spent some time working in the EMC CTO office, and there are certain things we will always look at. And it's like, there's this gap. Here's what we have today, and here's absolutely where we know where the market is going. >> Right. >> So, you know, the analogy I hear today is like, well, customers they've got their applications. They need to modernize them. So it's been the last year or so, there's been this discussion of lift and shift. It made people cringe. I said, you know, I've lifted the virtualization way. One of the biggest challenges where, was I took this old application which, to be frank, stunk, and I kept it alive for years longer, even though the server was no longer supported, the OS was no longer supported, but I could just virtualize it and that was great. I want to get to 12-factor, microservice architecture, even Serverless might be the foundation that I'd like to build this. I cannot lift and shift to get Serverless. There is no path from old to there. So it sounds like you're >> What we're doing. Trying to attack some of that there, am I getting that right? >> Yes, I mean, basically, I will give you an example of a customer that we have, right? So, they came, their monolithic application, right? And they really want it to move. And you know, it's really hard to maintain this, so they said, you know what, we really want it to move to Serverless. That's the engineering part, right? They're saying, we want it to move to engineering. They came to the boss and they said, well, what we want to do is to take it, rewrite it, and put it as a greenfield, right? Basically as a Serverless. So the boss said, no problem, go, evaluate how much time it will take, and then come back to me. So they went and they did it, and they basically came with nine months. So the boss said, okay, so, no. And the reason is because nine months means a year, and also, I didn't get any feature on this year. Right? They will fire me. So what we're doing is we're saying, take this monolithic application, it's working, don't touch it, extend it. First of all, extend, on the new functionality, going to the Serverless and to microservices, and we're supporting everything, and it's brand new. I mean, I can start telling you what is the platform that we support. It's almost everything. And then, the second thing is that, on your spare time, start breaking it. Now, there's no magic. I know people are saying there's an algorithm. That's never going to work. Trust me, and I did a lot of software in my life. You can't guess this stuff. You actually need to rewrite them. But on your spare time, when you're available, and on the way, you know, on your pace of learning. And I feel that that's what we're giving. We're basically giving them the freedom to do that on their spare time, and we're giving a lot of other tools, like for instance, debug. So we create, we opensource a project called Squash, that basically be able to attach debuggers to microservices, to Serverless, and to monolithic, in different language, different everything, and jump between them. So you basically can create what I call library up, and jump cross that. So I feel that what we're targeting is basically make this movement easy, with any technology that we can put out there. >> Yeah. The whole application modernization is a real challenge. If I look at, you know, in this space, Pivotal's acquisition of Pivotal Labs was to help them. A lot of services, things that we're looking at, Pivotal going public. How much of their business is actually services, how much of it is you know, subscription and software? How much are you, is this just tooling you're building, or are you helping customers get through some of the services that maybe it's time for you to talk, how many people do you have on your team? Like, I look at the website, I see like five people, so. >> Yeah, that's actually what we are. So I mean, specifically, we are five. We are startup. We got actually really well funded from True Ventures, great, great investors. And what was important to me, was not to do a lot of mistakes of the other startups doing, which is basically scale too fast, right? I wanted first to putting a product out there, I want to see what's going on. And today, because we opensource, because we all can use Amazon and so on, we don't need a lot of money to actually create the additional projects. So that's what we did. Specifically, I can tell I'm getting a lot of resumes and right now, I'm actually pushing them back, because it's really, really important to me to scale on the right side. Now we're starting to have customers, we will have to scale, right? So that's that. In terms of how much, so that's enough. We are five and as I said, it's good, but we are not in the services. Actually people they're doing an amazing job. We don't want to touch that. What we do want to make sure is that they're giving the tools to do them themselves and they will hire probably people to do the services. >> Are you able to share how much funding, you said True Ventures is one of the funding? >> So we got 2.5 from True Ventures, and then we got 500 from Haystack and another 250 from Wave Ventures, capital. >> Okay, and five people. You're hiring too. What are you looking for? >> Yeah, so we're definitely going to hire more. We need a full stack engineer, we need a system engineer. Right now it's very flat architecture. A lot of really, really good people. I mean, my engineers are people who was in the Israeli Army as lackers, you know, very, very technical. People who are, walk with me in EMC, and so on. Very, very good people. And our purpose is to grow as system engineers a little bit, UI, and we also need some help to scale. >> And you're located here in Boston, correct? >> I am, I am. I have one engineer in Seattle, but all the rest are here. >> Okay, and the products itself, you know, opensource, and the things that are available, so-- >> For now, so we started as an open, we did put it as an opensource project. This is the platform I feel should be opensource. But there will be features that we will not opensource. A lot of more things that makes sense for the enterprise, we will not opensource. But yeah, right now, everything is opensource, and we wanted to share for the community. >> Okay, and from the customers you're talking to, what's their biggest challenge, you know, things like Serverless, you know, are they getting their arms around it, especially, you know, out here in the east coast, as opposed to, you know, some of the startups in the like? >> So actually, people in the enterprise, I mean, I think I nailed the use case, because you know, I went, I'm talking a lot in conference, QCon is one of the conference that I really, really liked and talked a lot, and when I talk there to the people, everybody has this problem, which I have a monolithic, how do you move them? Most of them trying to move to container right now. That's where it is. But the beauty of how we built Gloo, and that was totally on purpose, is the fact that, and I actually have a diagram showing it, today those enterprise that are only using monolithic. I don't know, like Bank of America, I think is only monolithic. Then if you're looking, there's people only using microservices, probably Google and others. And then there is companies like iRobot for instance. So it's going all the way to Serverless. That's all there, right? Bam, which is amazing. But, and there is companies that's sharing it, right? That means they're microservices and Serverless, so monolithic, and then. And EMC for instance, they have like Serverless, microservices and monolithic. What we're trying to do is basically, the beauty of what we build, is basically a platform on top of an envoy. So we can actually create the customized offer for you that will be only what you need. And what we will help you is to basically glue, this is what the name, glue your environment, so it will give you one experience that you can manage it or you can mix and match, you can do whatever you want, and it's really, really clean. So when I'm talking to customers today, mainly where they are is like monolithic to microservices, but they love this use case. I mean, I didn't meet a customer yet that I show him the demo of how we're taking a spring boot application and move it, and he said that they don't want it to proceed. So it's good. >> Wow. Fascinating stuff. I really appreciate you sharing. Definitely, we hear from customers all the time. It's moving from the old to the new, it's I need to live in both of those worlds, and they can't split those teams, it can't be islands, I need to pull this together. It's definitely through a multi-cloud, and seems like it's happening in the development environment too. So, Idit Levine, solo, congratulations on where you've gone. Look forward to catching up much more in the future. We're back with lots more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry summit in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks for watching theCUBE.

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation. >> I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's coverage of Cloud Foundry Summit 2018, here in beautiful Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome to the program first-time guest, Dr. Nic Williams, CEO of Stark and Wayne. Dr. Nic, thanks for joining me >> Thank you very much. I think you must've come to the conference from a different direction than I came. >> I'm a local, and I'm trying to get more people to come to the Boston area. We've been doing theCUBE now for, coming up on our ninth year of doing it, and it's only the third time I've done something in this convention center, so please, more tech shows to this area, Boston, the Hynes Convention Center, and things like that. >> There's plenty of tech people. I was at the Nero Cafe, everyone seemed like they were a tech person. >> Oh no, the Seaport region here is exploding. I've done two interviews today with companies here in Boston or Cambridge. There's a great tech scene. For some reason, you and I were joking, it's like, do we really need another conference in Vegas? I mean really. >> Dr. Nic: Right, no, I like the regional. >> But yeah, the weather here is unseasonably cold. It was snowing and sleeting this morning, which is not the Spring weather. >> It is April, it is mid-April, and it's almost snowing outside. >> Alright, so Dr. Nic, first of all, you get props for the T-shirt. You've got Iron Man and Doctor Doom, and we're saying that there is a connection between the superheroes and Stark and Wayne. >> Right, so Stark and Wayne is founded by two fictional superheroes. The best founders are the fictional ones, they don't go to meetings, they're too busy making, you know, films. >> Yes, but everybody knows that Tony Stark is Iron Man, but nobody's supposed to know that Bruce Wayne was Batman. >> Nic: Right, right. >> But I've heard Stark and Wayne mentioned a number of times by customers here at the conference. So, for our audience that doesn't know, what does Stark and Wayne do, and how are you involved in the Cloud Foundry ecosystem? >> So Stark and Wayne, I first found Bosh, I founded Stark and Wayne. Earlier than that I discovered Bosh, six years ago, when it was first released, became like, I claimed to be the world's first evangelist for Bosh, and still probably the number one evangelist. And so Stark and Wayne came out of that. I was VMWare Pivotal's go-to person for standing things up and then customers grew, and you know. Yeah, people want to know who to go to, and when it comes to running Cloud Foundry, that's us. >> Yeah well, there's always that discussion, right? We've got all these wonderful platforms and these things that go together, but a lot of times there's services and people that help to get those up. Pivotal, just had a great discussion with a Pivotal person, talking about the reason they bought Pivotal Labs originally was like, wow, when people got stuck, that's what Pivotal Labs helps with that whole application development, so you're doing similar things with Bosh? >> Correct. No it's, we have our mental model around what it is to run operations of a platform, where you're running complex software, but you have an end user who expects everything just to work. And they never want to talk to you, and you don't want to talk to them. So it's this new world of IT where they get what they want instantly, that's the platform and it has to keep working. >> Dr Nic, is it an unreasonable thing for people to say that, yeah I want the things to work, and it shouldn't go down, and you know-- >> What is shadow IT? Shadow IT is the rebellion against corporate IT, so we want to bring back, well, we want to bring the wonders of public services to corporate environments. >> Okay, so-- >> That's the Cloud Foundry's story. >> Yeah, so talk to me a little bit about your users. We've watched this ecosystem mature since the early days, you know, things are more mature, but what's working well? What are the challenges? What are some of the prime things that have people calling up your team? >> So our scope, our users, or our customers, are people, they're the GEs and the Fords of the world running either as a service or internally large Cloud Foundry installations. And whilst Cloud Foundry is getting better and better, the security model is better, the upgrades seem to be flawless, it does keep getting more complex. You know, you can't just add container to container networking and it not get more complicated, right? So, yeah, trying to keep up-to-date with not just the core, but even the community of projects going on is part of the novelty, but also it's trying to bring it to customers and be successful. >> Yeah, I go to a number of these shows that are open source and every time you come there, it's like, "Well, here's the main things we're talking about "but here's six other projects that come up." How's that impact some of what you were just talking about? But, maybe elaborate as to how you deal with the pace of change, and those big companies, how are they help integrate those into what they're doing, or do they, you know-- >> So my Twitter is different from your Twitter. So my Twitter is 10 years worth of collecting of people who talk about interesting things, putting in a URL, just referencing an idea they're having, so they tend to be the thought leaders. They might be wrong, or like, let's put Docker into production, like, it doesn't make it wrong, but you've got to be wary of people who are too early. And you just start to peace a picture of what's being built, and you start to know which groups and which individuals are machines, and make great stuff, and you sort of track their work. Like HashiCorp, Mitchell Hashimoto, I knew him before HashiCorp, and he is a monster, and so you tend to track their work. >> So your Twitter and my Twitter might be more alike than you think. >> Nic: No maybe, right. >> I interviewed Armon at the Cube-Con show last year. My Twitter blowing up the show was a bunch of people arguing about whether Serverless was going to eradicate this whole ecosystem. >> Well, we can argue about that if you like, I guess. >> But love, one of the things coming into this show, was, you know, how does the whole Kubernetes discussion fit into Cloud Foundry? We've heard at this show, Microsoft, Google, many others, talking about, look, open source communities, they're going to work together. >> Well Windows is going to track things 'cause they think they need to sell them, right? But then Microsoft has Service Fabric, which they've owned and operated internally for 10 years, and so, I think some really interesting products may be built on top of Service Fabric, because of what it is. Whereas, you know, Kubernetes will run things, Service Fabric may build net new projects. And then Cloud Foundry's a different experience altogether, so some people, it's what problems they experienced, comes to the solution they find, and unless you've tried to run a platform for people, you might not think the solution's a platform. You might think it's Kubernetes, but-- >> Yeah, so one of the things we always look at when we talk about platforms, is what do they get stood up for? How many applications do you get to stand up there? What don't they work for? Maybe you could help give us a little bit of color as to what you see? >> I'm pretty good at jamming anything into Cloud Foundry, so I have a pretty small scope of what doesn't fit, but typically the idea of Cloud Foundry is the assumption the user is a developer who has 10 iterations a day. Alright, so they want to deploy, test, deploy, test, and then layer pipelines on top of that. You also get, you're going to get the backend of long, stable apps, but the value is, for many people, is that the deploy experience. And then, you know, but whilst, you're going to get those apps that live forever, we still get to replace the underlying core of it. So you still maintain a security model even for the things that are relatively unloved. Andthis is really valuable, like the nice, clean separation of the security, the package, CVEs, and the base OS, then the apps is part of the-- >> Yeah, absolutely, there's been an interesting kind of push and pull lately. We need to take some of those old applications, and we may need to lift and shift them. It doesn't mean that I can necessarily take advantage of all the cool stuff, and there are some things that I can't do with them when I get them on to that new platform. But absolutely, you need to worry about security, you know, data's like the center of everything. >> If you're lifting and shifting, there probably is no developer looking after it, so it's more of an operator function, and they can put it anywhere they like. They're looking after it now, whereas the Cloud Foundry experience is that developer-led experience that has an operations backend. If you're lifting and shifting, if it fits in Cloud Foundry, great, if it fits in Kubernetes, great. It's your responsibility. >> Yeah, what interaction do you have with your clients, with some of the kind of cultural and operational changes that they need to go through? So thinking specifically, you've go the developers doing things, you know, the operators, whether they're involved, whether that be devops or not, but I'm curious-- >> So the biggest change when it comes to helping people who are running platforms. And I know many people want to talk about the cloud transformation, but let's talk about the operations transformation, is to become a service-orientated group who are there to provide a service. Yes you're internal, yes they all have the same email address that you do, but you're a service-orientated organization, and that is not technology, that is a mental mode. And if you're not service-orientated, shadow IT occurs, because they can go to Amazon and get a support organization that will respond to them, and so you're competing with Amazon, and Google, and you need to be pretty good. >> Yeah, you mentioned that, you know, your typical client is kind of a large, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, the Fortune 1000 type companies, does this sort of-- >> We haven't got Berkshire. We haven't got Berkshire, and so if we're going to go Fortune 5, you know, we'd like, I've read my Warren Buffett biography, I reckon the FA are here to meet him I reckon. >> Right, so one of the questions, is this only for the enterprise? Can it be used for smaller businesses, for newer businesses? >> What's interesting is people think about Cloud Foundry as like, "Oh you run it on your infrastructure." Like, I did a talk in 2014, 15, when Docker was starting to be frothy, was, before you think you want to build your own pass, ring me on the hotline. Like, argue with me about why you wouldn't just use Heroku, or Pivotal Web Services, or IBM Cloud, like a public pass. Please, I beg of you, before you go down any path of running on-prem anything, answer solidly the question of why you just wouldn't use a public service. And yeah, so it really starts at that point. It's like, use someone else's, and then if you have to run your own. So, who's really going to have all these rules? It's large organization that have these, "Oh, no, no, we have to run our own." >> Well doctor, one of the things we've said for a while, is there's lots of things that enterprise suck at, that they need to realize that they shouldn't be doing. So start at the most basic level, there's like five companies in the world that are good at building data centers, nobody else should build data centers, if you're using somebody else that can do that. So as you go up and up the stack, you want to get rid of the undifferentiated lifting, things like that, so-- >> I like to joke that every CIO, the moment they get that job, like that's their ticket to get to build their own data center. It's like, what else was the point of becoming a CIO? I want to build my own data center. >> No, not anymore, please-- >> Not anymore, but you know, plus they've been around a little longer than-- >> So, what is that line? What should companies be able to consume a platform, versus where do they add the value, and do you help customers kind of understand that that-- >> By the time they're talking to us, they're pretty far along having convinced themselves about what they're doing. And they have their rules. They have their isolation rules, their data-ownership rules, and they'll have their level of comfort. So they might be comfortable on Amazon, Google, Azure, or they might still not be comfortable with public cloud, and they want the vSphere, but they still have that notion of we're going to run this ourselves. And most of them it's not running one, because that idea of we need our own, propagates throughout the entire organization, and they'll start wanting their own Cloud Foundry-- >> Look, I find that when I talk to users, we, the vendors, and those that watch the industry, always try to come up with these multi-cloud hybrid cloud-type discussion. Users, have a cloud strategy, and it's usually often siloed just like everything else, and right, they're using-- >> Developers-- >> I have some data service, and it's running on Google-- >> Developers just want to have a nice life. >> Microsoft apps. >> They just want to get their work done. They want to feel like, "Alright this is a great job, "like, I'm respected, I get interesting work, "we get to ship it, it actually goes into production." I think if you haven't ever had a project you've worked on that didn't go into production, you haven't worked long enough. Many of us work on something for it not to be shipped. Get it into production as quick as possible and-- >> So, do you have your, you know, utopian ideal world though as to, this is the step-- >> Oh, absolutely-- >> And this is how it'll be simple. >> Tell developers what the business problems are. Get them as close to the business problems, and give them responsibility to solve them. Don't put them behind layers of product managers, and IT support-- >> But Dr. Nic, the developers, they don't have the budget-- >> Speak for utopian-- >> How do we sort through that, because, right, the developer says they want to do this, but they're not tied to the person that has the budget, or they're not working with the operators, I mean, how do we sort through that? >> How do we get to utopia? >> Stu: Yeah. Well, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they all solved utopia, right? So, this is, think more like them, and perhaps the CEO of the company shouldn't come from sales, perhaps it should be an IT person. >> Well, yeah, what's the T-shirt for the show? It was like running at scale, when you reach a certain point of scale, you either need to solve some of these things, or you will break? >> Right, alright look, hire great sales organizations, but if you don't have empathy for what your company needs to look like in five years time, you're probably not going to allow your organization to become that. The power games, alright? If everyone assumes that the marketing department becomes the top of the organization, or the, you know, then the good people are going to leave to go to organizations where they might be become CEO one day. >> Alright, Dr. Nic, want to give you the final word. For the people that haven't been able to come to the sessions, check out the environment, what are they missing at this show? What is exciting you the most in this ecosystem? >> Like any conference you go to, you come, the learning is all put online. Your show is put online, or every session is put online. You don't come just to learn. You get the energy. I live in Australia, I work from a coffee shop, my staff are all in America, and so to come and just to get the energy that you're doing the right thing, that you get surrounded by a group of people, and certainly no one walks away from a CF Summit feeling like they're in the wrong career. >> Excellent. Well, Dr. Nic, appreciate you helping us understand the infinity wars of cloud environments here. Stark and Wayne, thanks so much for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE. >> Dr. Nic: Thanks Stu. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: From Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2018. Brought to you by The Cloud Foundry Foundation, >> Hi I'm Stu Miniman and this is the Cube's coverage of the Cloud Foundry Summit 2018 here in Boston, Massachusetts. Happy to welcome back one of our earliest and favorite guests of the Cube Chad Sakac Who's at Pivotal now and he handles PKS and Dell technologies. Chad, great to see you, thanks for joining us, welcome to the Boston area, you come through this area a lot but it's great to see you. >> It's good to see you too. This is, by the way, my first CF summit. So it's interesting, you and I have talked together at Dell Technologies World, Dell EMC World, and EMC World for years. >> Stu: VMWorld. >> And VMWorld. This is a different scene. >> Alright Chad, this is my third time doing this show. I was at the first one back in 2014, last year we did the Cube there; every year it's like 'oh wait, there's this cool new technology; containers, maybe, how's Pivotal going to deal with that? This year, wait, Kubernetes, cloud natives everywhere. Maybe give us your point of view, as to how this fits in. >> So I feel like I'm a kid in a candy store. My job inside Pivotal is to drive PKS. Pivotal Container Service, that's built on top of Kubernetes. And there's a lot of Kubernetes action occurring here. If I had to net it out, I'd say a couple things. Number one, we've moved past the early hype cycle, and actually went through several hype cycles that blew up, so Docker is going to take over the world, not correct. What turned out to be correct is Docker would become the container standard, right? >> It's Mobi now, right? >> Right. Then, we went in to the battles of different cluster container managers. It's Swarm, it's Mesos Marathon, it's Kubernetes and there were lots of others, and then you get through that early hype period and things settle down to the point where they're actually productive, and everyone now kind of agrees, that Kubernetes is the standard container cluster manager for broad sets of workloads, great. Now the debate is Cloud Foundry, the structured PaaS-World, right? The structured platform opinionated, versus the little more wild west and open eco system of Kubernetes, and then early stage Kubernetes projects, like Istio and others, right? I think this has two chapters now, in front of us. Number one, and this is my focus I think for the next few years, is how do we make Kubernetes simple enough, easy enough, and frankly, enterprise ready. Not that it's not ready today, but a lot of Kubernetes projects that our customers are all over the map, difficult to sustain. We want to bring a lot of the lessons learned over the years of Cloud Foundry to Kubernetes. And I'm happy to say, that just a couple days ago, we released PKS 1.O.2 and 1.1, which we haven't announced the date but we've always said that we're going to be in constant compatibility with GKE, and the core Kubernetes. Since GKE shortly will have Kubernetes 1.10 support you can expect a 1.1 of PKS. So mission number one is make Kubernetes a great platform, and I am determined and stubborn, and will make PKS the best enterprise platform for customers that are putting workloads on Kubernetes. That said, Kubernetes isn't steady still and neither is the ecosystem. And you can see that there's a lot of discussion over what is the intersection between Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes? I think that over time it's inevitable that these things come together more. But again, I think that's going to occur over years. Not in a heartbeat. >> And even, I've been at the Kubernetes show and have been at this show a few times, it's not a monolithic stack, we're building distributed, lots of different pieces. You go to the Cloud Foundry, I'm sorry, the show that's Kub-Con, there's so many different projects there, I mean Istio was all the buzz, talk about the service national, there's all these little pieces there. And at this show, we're talking about Zip Car came and talked about they love everything in this eco system. They don't use some of the core components, but they use all these other pieces. As you and I've talked many times, Chad, people go read, Chad writes a little bit about some of these things to give you all the details there, but this stuff's pretty complicated. There's some in the Kubernetes community that's like it's never going to get simple. Remember when we thought Cloud computing was simple? And if you've been to any Amazon show and you go through, it is more complicated to configure a compute instance at Amazon, than it is to buy a Dell server these days. Because there's more options out there. Look, customers need options, many of them want things to be packaged and serviced and buy it as a service, but some love to put those pieces together and it's a spectrum and I loved at this show, Google and Microsoft up on stage, talking, 'hey, open communities, collaborating together'. Maybe not merging everything, but working together, understanding where things fit and it's not one or the other, it's many customers will choose both. >> You and I are both nerds at heart, I hope you don't take offense to that. >> I've already been doing Star Wars quotes this week. >> I wear it with pride. I'm always fascinated by the technology itself, but one thing that's been really cool about my experience alongside, and now inside Pivotal, and you can see it here at the CF Summit, is that the Pivotal obsession, is about the customer and the outcome. We build a platform that is an essential part of that, but teaching the world how to build better software is a noble mission. And the thing that's the most exciting for me is actually when the customers talk. So if you went to any of the customer discussions, did you see any of them, did you see the T-Mobile one? >> I saw T-Mobile up on the key note, I actually did an interview with T-Mobile. Had an interview with US Air Force. >> The Air Force One is amazing. >> Awesome. >> It's fascinating, from a technological standpoint, to say how do you use these tools? But it's the story of what you do with it, that actually matters so much more. I'll leave the, no, I won't leave the customer name out of it. So in talking with the T-Mobile crew, they love the Pivotal application service. So they are using it, it's an essential part of how T-Mobile works. They talked about it on stage, that's why I don't mind talking about it. And if you ask them, it's not an or. They also have massive projects, massive application workloads, that don't fit in PaaS, but are Docker images, they're currently doing some strange stuff with Swarm, and blah blah. And they're like 'Man, if you guys can basically deliver a great platform that we can consume instead of trying to construct and maintain, we trust you, you iterate with us, you work with us, we'll be able to focus more on the outcome. The thing that I'm actually going to be the most curious to hear feedback from customers over the next couple of years, is how do they navigate what workloads are best put into Kubernetes, how does Kubernetes sets of ecosystems start to not calcify, but firm up, right? It's going to be loose. But it will start to align more over time. >> Yeah our research team actually calls it, we need to get to a place where it's plastic. It should be not just scalable up and down but side to side a little bit more too. Once you have it, you can be able to go. >> Figuring out over time, and helping, with customers, figure out 'Hey, this is a Kafka or Crunchy data.' Post grass instance, or it's an ISV stack, or it's an application they've home grown, but they don't want it fully compartmentalized and put on paths, and they decide that they want to put it on Kubernetes, awesome. What is the value and the return of doing further work on that app to really make it Cloud Native, pull out all config, turn it into sets of small micro services, and then it's better fit for the PaaS part of PCF. Figuring out that formula over the next few years is going to be really cool. >> You mentioned culture. And that's been something you and I, Chad, lived through. It was the server vs the storage vs the network and the virtualization admin, and then the cloud admin. I talked to the US Air Force guy, and he was like, 'We actually have the people take off their uniforms, because rank would have a certain meaning inside there.' But you've got the Devs, you've got OPS, you've got still the infrastructure pieces on tub, what are you seeing from the customers you're talking to; what are some of the big challenges that are slowing people back from reaching this Utopia of fast, fast, fast, agile, inter-operable, wonderful times? >> How do I answer that one? That's a loaded question, brother. The biggest impediment is human nature. It's these damn humans, if we could just get all the humans out. >> Well everybody's mine, mine, mine. >> We'll go to low code, no code, eliminate all the humans, it'll be dreamy. >> I did one of those interviews today, too. Absolutely, you don't need all programmers, the business people can do it. >> The human tendency for control, and the need for control, I think it's probably deep seated in our, we're living in a world where we know intellectually that we don't have control over everything, but we hate that. Because we want to create control in our lives, that basically is the thing that sets up boundaries between people, and they get really hung up on their function. That's not new, the word's changed, like you said. Used to be server people vs storage people. Then it was virtualization teams vs the silo teams. And now it's the intersection of the DEV team and the DevOps team, the operations team. How do they intersect? The places where they're the most successful, is that they don't get hung up on that and the people blend the roles. Now the trick is, how do you do that in a big company? I wrote a blog, I'm not trying to advertise, virtualgeek.io I wrote a blog on this which was a synthesis of all the customer dialogues I've been having over the last few years. And the pattern I've seen that is most successful, is actually to recognize that there are stacks, and the stacks, I don't mean this particular technology choice, but the way that the whole stack driven by the business and the application and then the abstraction it sits on, and then you have to build your actual operations team underneath that. That creates a whole operational model which in itself is a stack, and just so it doesn't sound like I'm describing something that's nonsensical, a stack can be in big enterprises, there's a main frame based app, that's running on a main frame, that's being supported by a main frame operations team, and then right beside it there's another stack, which is all X86 workloads that are static. So they don't need an IAS they just need to run on a kernel mode VM abstraction. And then under that you've got the team that supports. Then you've got the workload that can be containerized, and don't need a full blown PaaS. And then you've got another one, which is a full blown application service model. Each one of those stacks ends up with different people, processes and tools, because they're mapped to the cultural operational model of that stack. And the thing that I'm trying to guide customers when I'm talking to them is, don't reject that; that's actually reality. Yes you should move as much as you can to the highest order abstraction you can. That's goodness and it pays dividends all the way down the stack. But don't go and say, that this workload, by definition has to go there. Or because you operate this way in this stack and this group operates this way, that by definition you're stupid and they're smart. The other rule is that- >> Chad, the answer to everything is server-less. >> By the way, I should have said that's another abstraction even to the right of the application service model. So the thing I've found, is a key kind of pattern of good, is that between the stacks, people and process are not allowed to transverse them, because the process is linked to how you operate. The only thing that goes between them, because in the end, for any customer, the stuff that touches all of those, is to become religious about one thing, which is that API's and data, and how those transit, those different stacks, that you have to be very clear on. Do you know what I mean? On the blog I drew a picture, but it was terrible. It was a terrible drawing. >> I've done whiteboards with you, Chad, I understand. Great, so. Sound's like you've got your hands full. Lots of us read the S1, so Pivotal's marching towards an IPO. You've only been there a very short time, you've know Pivotal since the beginning and all the pieces since Greenplum's part of the MC, Cloud Foundry part of VMware. Anything that you've learned since you've been inside Pivotal now that there's misconceptions? One of the things I always find is, we always learn about something the first time and then don't think it changes. >> It's funny actually, that's an insightful question. Having joined the team, it's weird because to many of them, I'm new, I'm a new Pivot. But to many of them they know that I've always been there. And I was reminding some of the originals, the crazy tortured path that we've taken to get to today. The original effort was hey, people are doing new things data's at the core of it. And that was the trigger for the Greenplum acquisition. And several of the people who are the senior leaders of Pivotal now came in through that. And then Paul Maritz was the CEO of VMware at the time, hey, I'm seeing people build new apps in new ways, by the way there's this crazy team inside VMware working on this thing called Cloud Foundry. And they were like a red headed stepchild. That's not PC, but like a black sheep? Or I don't know what metaphor you want to use, but basically they were working on something that had nothing to do with kernel mode virtualization at its core. >> Yeah it was a Cloud native peg in a VM square. >> And at the time, VMware isn't what they are now too. And then people forget this but I wrote a blog about it, so it's on the internet permanently. There was a Greenplum project, which was a great idea, that says people want to collaborate with data sets, and data scientists want to work together and it's really hard. Let's build a thing, which is like a social media portal, for Greenplum which was called Chorus. And the Chorus project was completely sideways. And they were like we don't know how we're going to get this thing on track on time, and they asked around the Valley, and people said hey, you should go talk to these guys, Pivotal Labs, up in San Francisco. What they do is they help people when they're stuck. They went, and I remember when Bill Cook and Scott Yara came back to Hoppington and said 'This was awesome, they've changed the way we think about how we build software, we think we should buy them.' And that got added, I remember when Paul Maritz said 'Spring is available.' it's like the most widely used modern JAVA framework, and that was also stuff in Spring Rif. All of these weird bits, in essence became the essence of Pivotal. You know what I've learned through that? Is these journeys are not in a straight line. Everyone's. >> Like our careers, Chad. >> Like our careers man. That's the first part, the second thing is, and this is going to be a challenge for Pivotal, honest, if we're very transparent as always, is Pivotal's brand is now so linked with Pivotal Cloud Foundry. And that's a good thing, like those customers raving about the business outcomes that they are getting. But inside Pivotal, the strategic change, the strategic pivot ha ha ha, to do a full embrace of Kubernetes versus the traditional opinionated versus plastic debates, I wouldn't say that we have 100% of the company fully embracing it yet, because companies are themselves, organic. But across the vast majority of the company it is something understood that it is an imperative for us. If we want to help the customers and the world build better software, we've got to do it for stuff that fits into PaaS, and stuff that doesn't. And so I've learned over the last few weeks about how many people share that passion that I have, and I think we can make something awesome with PKS. >> Alright, well with that Chad, we'll have to leave it there for now, looking forward to seeing you at more events. Congrats on the new role, I'm sure if people haven't already, Chad does have a new site for his blog, virtualgeek.io instead of the previous one. Chad, always a pleasure. Got the Cube here at Cloud Foundry Summit, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching the Cube. (upbeat tempo)

>> Announcer: Live from midtown Manhattan, it's the Cube, covering big data New York City 2017. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media and its ecosystem sponsors. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in New York City for the week, three days of wall to wall coverage of big data NYC, it's big data week here in conjunction with Strata Adup, Strata Data which is an event running right around the corner, this is the Cube, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Peter Burris, our next guest Jacque Istok who's the head of data at Pivotal. Welcome to the Cube, good to see you again. >> Likewise. >> You guys had big news we covered at VMware, obviously the Kubernetes craze is fantastic, you're starting to see cloud native platforms front and center even in some of these operational worlds like in cloud, data you guys have been here a while with Green Plum and Pivotal's been adding more to the data suite, so you guys are a player in this ecosystem. >> Correct. >> As it grows to be much more developer-centric and enterprise-centric and AI-centric, what's the update? >> I'd like to talk about a couple things, just three quick things here, one focused primarily on simplicity, first and foremost as you said, there's a lot of things going on on the cloud foundry side, a lot of things that we're doing with Kubernetes, etc., super exciting. I will say Tony Berge has written a nice piece about Green Plum in Zitinet, essentially calling Green Plum the best kept secret in the analytic database world. Why I think that's important is, what isn't really well known is that over the period of Pivotal's history, the last four and a half years, we focused really heavily on the cloud foundry side, on dev/ops, on getting users to actually be able to publish code. What we haven't talked about as much is what we're doing on the data side and I find it very interesting to repeatedly tell analysts and customers that the Green Plum business has been and continues to be a profitable business unit within Pivotal, so as we're growing on the cloud foundry side, we're continuing to grow a business that many of the organizations that I see here at Strata are still looking to get to, that ever forgotten profitability zone. >> There's a legacy around Green Plum, I'm not going to say they pivoted, pun intended, Pivotal. There's been added stuff around Green Plum, Green Plum might get lost in the messaging because it's been now one of many ingredients, right? >> It's true and when we formed Pivotal, I think there were 34 some different skews that we have now focused in on over the last two years or so. What's super exciting is again, over that time period, one of the things that we took to heart within the Green Plum side is this idea of extreme agile. As you guys know, Pivotal Labs being the core part of the Pivotal mission helps our customers figure out how to actually build software. We finally are drinking our own champagne and over the last year and a half of Green Plum R&D, we're shipping code, a complete data platform, we're shipping that on a cadence of about four to five weeks which again, a little bit unheard of in the industry, being able to move at that pace. We work through the backlog and what is also super exciting and I'm glad that you guys are able to help me tell the world, we released version five last week. Version five is actually the only parallel open source data platform that actually has native ANSI compliance SQL and I feel a little bit like I've rewound the clock 15 years where I have to actually throw in the ANSI compliance, but I think that in a lot of ways, there are SQL alternatives that are out there in the world. They are very much not ANSI compliant and that hurts. >> It's a nuance but it's table stakes in the enterprise. ANSI compliance is just, >> There's a reason you want to be ANSI compliant, because there's a whole swath of analytic applications mainly in the data warehouse world, that were built using ANSI compliant SQL, so why do this with version five? I presume it's got to have something to do with you want to start capturing some of those applications and helping customers modernize. >> That is correct. I think the SQL piece is one part of the data platform, of really a modern data platform. The other parts are again, becoming table stakes. Being able to do text analytics, we've backed Apache Solar within Green Plum, being able to do graph analytics or spatial analytics, anything from classifications, regressions, all of that, actually becomes table stakes and we feel that enterprises have suffered a little bit over the last five or six years. They've had this promise of having a new platform that they can leverage for doing interesting new things, machine learning, AI, etc. but the existing stuff that they were trying to do has been super, super hard. What we're trying to do is bridge those together and provide both in the same platform, out of the gate so that customers can actually use it immediately and I think one of the things we've seen is there's about 1000 to one SQL experienced individuals within the enterprise versus say Haduk experience in individuals. The other thing that I think is actually super important and almost bigger than everything else I talked about is we're the, a lot of the old school postgres deriviants of MBD databases forked their databases at some point in postgres's history, for a variety of reasons from licensing to when they started. Green Plum's no different. We forked right around eight dot too with this last release of version five, we've actually up leveled the postgres base within Green Plum's 8.3. Now in and of itself, it doesn't sound, >> What does that mean? >> We are now taking a 100% commitment both to open source and both to the postgres community. I think if you look at postgres today, in its latest versions, it is a full fledged, mission critical database that can be used anywhere. What we feel is that if we can bring our core engineering developments around parallelism, around analytics and combine that with postgres itself, then we don't have to implement all of the low level database things that a lot of our competitors have to do. What's unique about it is one, Green Plum continues to be open source, which again most of our competitors are not, two if you look at primarily what they're doing, nobody's got that level of commitment to the postgres community which means all of their resources are going to be stuck building core database technology, even building that ANSI SQL compliance in, which we'll get "for free" which will let us focus on things like machine learning, artificial intelligence. >> Just give a quick second and tell about the relevance of postgres because of the success, first of all it's massive, it's everywhere, but it's not going anywhere. Just give a quick, for the audience watching, what's the relevance of it. >> Sure like you said, it is everywhere. It is the most full featured, actual database in the open source community. Arguably my SQL has "more" market share, but my SQL projects that generally leverage them are not used for mission critical enterprise applications. Being able to have parity allows us not only to have that database technology baked into Green Plum, but it also gives us all of the community stuff with it. Everything from being able to leverage the most recent ODBC and JDBC libraries, but also integrations into everything from the post GIS travert for geospatial to being able to connect to other types of data sources, etc. >> It's a big community, shows that it's successful, but again, >> And it doesn't come in a red box. >> It does not come in a red box, that is correct. >> Which is not a bad thing. Look, postgres as a technology was developed a long time ago, largely in response to think about analytics and transaction, or analytics and operating applications might have actually come to and we're now living in a world where we can actually see the hardware and a lot of practices, etc. are beginning to find ways where this may start to happen. With Green Plum and postgres both MPP based, so your, by going to this, you're able to stay more modern, more up to date on all the new technology that's coming together to support these richer, more complex classes of applications. >> You're spot on, I suppose I would argue that postgres, I feel came up with as a response to Oracle in the past of, we need an open source alternative to Oracle, but other than that, 100% correct. >> There was always a difference between postgres and MySQL, MySQL always was okay, that's that, let's do that open source, postgres coming out of Berkeley and coming out of some other places, always had a slightly different notion of the types of problems it was going to take on. >> 100% correct, 100%. But to your question before, what does this all mean to customers, I think the one thing that version five really gives us the confidence to say is, and a lot of times I hate lobbing when the ball's out like this, but we welcome and embrace with open arms any terradata customers out there that are looking to save millions if not tens of millions of dollars on a modern platform that can actually run not only on premise, not only on bare metal, but virtually and off premise. We're truly the only MPP platform, the only open source MPP data platform that can allow you to build analytics and move those analytics from Amazon to Azure to back on prem. >> Talk about this, the terradata thing for a second, I want to get down and double click on that. Customers don't want to change code, so what specifically are you guys offering terradata customers specifically. With the release of version five, with a lot of the development that we've done and some of the partnering that we've done, we are now able to take without changing a line of code of your terradata applications, you load the data within the Green Plum platform, you can point those applications directly to Green Plum and run them unchanged, so I think in the past, the reticence to move to any other platform was really the amount of time it would take to actually redevelop all of the stuff that you had. We offer an ability to go from an immediate ROI to a platform that again, bridges that gap, allows you to really be modern. >> Peter, I want to talk to you about that importance that we just said because you've been studying the private cloud report, true private cloud which is on premises, coming from a cloud operating model, automating away undifferentiated labor and shipping that to differentiated labor, but this brings up what customers want in hybrid cloud and ultimately having public cloud and private cloud so hybrid sits there. They don't want to change their code basis, this is a huge deal. >> Obviously a couple things to go along with what Jacque said. The first thing is that you're right, people want the data to run where the data naturally needs to run or should run, that's the big argument about public versus hybrid versus what we call true private cloud. The idea that decreasing the workload needs to be located where the data, where it naturally should be located because of the physical, legal, regulatory, intellectual property attributes of the data, being able to do that is really really important. The other thing that Jacque said that goes right into this question John, is that ultimately in too many domains in this analytics world, which is fundamentally predicated on the idea of breaking data out of applications so that you can use it in new and novel and more value creating ways, is that the data gets locked up in a data warehouse. What's valuable in a data warehouse is not the hardware. It's the data. By providing the facility for being able to point an application at a couple of different data source including one that's more modern, or which takes advantage of more modern technology, that can be considerably cheaper, it means the shop can elevate the story about the asset and the asset here is the data and the applications that run against it, not the hardware and the system where the data's stored and located. One of the biggest challenges, we talked earlier just to go on for a second, we talked earlier with a couple of other guests about the fact that the industry still, what your average person still doesn't understand how to value data. How to establish a data asset and one of the reasons is because it's so constantly co-mingled with the underlying hardware. >> And actually I'd even further go on, I think the advent of some of these cloud data warehouses forgets that notion of being able to run it different places and provides one of the things that customers are really looking for which is simplicity. The ability to spin up a quick MPP SQL system within say Amazon for example, almost without a doubt, a lot of the business users that I speak to are willing to sacrifice capabilities within the platform which they are for the simplicity of getting up and going. One of the things that we really focused on in V5 is being able to give that same turnkey feel and so Green Plum exists within the Amazon marketplace, within the Azure marketplace, Google later this quarter, and then in addition to the simplicity, it has all of the functionality that is missing in those platforms, again, all the analytics, all the ability to reach out and federate queries against different types of data, I think it's exciting as we continue to progress in our releases, Green Plum has, for a number of years, had this ability to seamlessly query HGFS. Like a lot of the competitors, but HGFS isn't going away, neither is a generic object store like S3. But we continue to extend that to things like Spark for example, so now the ability to actually house your data within a data platform and seamlessly integrate with Spark back and forth, if you want to use Spark, use Spark, but somewhere that data needs to be materialized so that other applications can leverage it as well. >> But even then people have been saying well, if you want to put it on this disk, then put it on this disk. Given the question about Spark versus another database manager is a higher level conversation than many of the shops who are investing millions and millions and millions of dollars in their analytic application portfolio and all you're trying to do is, as I interpret it, is trying to say look, the value in the portfolio is the applications and the data. It's not the underlying elements. There's a whole bunch of new elements we can use, you can put it in the cloud, you can put it on premise if that's where the data belongs. Use some of these new and evolving technologies, but you're focused on how the data and the applications continue to remain valuable to the business over time and not the traditional hardware assets. >> Correct and I'll again leverage a notion that we get from labs, which is this idea of user centric design and so everything that we've been putting into the Green Plum database is around, ideally the four primary users of our system. Not just the analysts and not just the data scientists, but also the operators and the IT folks. That is where I'd say the last tenant of where we're going really is this idea of coopetition. I would, as the Pivotal Green Plum guy that's been around for 10 plus years, I would tell you very straight up that we are again, an open source MPP data platform that can rival any other platform out there, whether it's terradata, whether it's Haduke, we can beat that platform. >> Why should customers call you up? Why should they call you? There's all this other stuff out there, you got legacy, you got terradata, might have other things, people are knocking at my door, they're getting pounded with sales messages, buy me I'm better than the other guy. Why Pivotal data? >> The first thing I would say is, the latest reviews from Gardner for example, well actually let me rewind. I will easily argue that terradata has been the data warehouse platform for the last 30 years that everyone has tried to emulate. I'd even argue so much as that when Haduke came on the scene eight years ago, what they did was they changed the dynamics and what they're doing now is actually trying to emulate the terradata success through things like SQL on top of Haduke. What that has basically gotten us to is we're looking for a terradata replacement at Haduke like prices, that's what Green Plum has to offer in spades. Now, if you actually extend that just a little bit, I still recognize that not everybody's going to call us, there are still 200 other vendors out there that are selling a similar product or similar kinds of stories. What I would tell you in response to those folks is that Green Plum has been around in production for the last 10 plus years, we're a proven technology for solving problems, many of those are not. We work very well in this cooperative spirit of, Green Plum can be the end all be all, but I recognize it's not going to be the end all be all so this is why we have to work within the ecosystem. >> You have to, open source is dominating. At the Linux event, we just covered open source summit, 90% of software written will be open source libraries, 10% is where the value's being added. >> For sure, if you were to start up a new star up right now, would you go with a commercial product? >> No, just postgres database is good. All right final question to end the segment. This big data space that's now being called data, certainly Strata, Haduke is now Strata Data, just trying to keep that show going longer. But you got Microsoft Azure making a lot of waves going on right now with Microsoft Ignite, so cloud is into the play here, data's changed, so the question is how has this industry changed over the past eight years. You go back to 2010, I saw Green Plum coming prior to even getting bought out, but they were kicking ass, same product evolved. Where has the space gone? What's happened, how would you summarize it to someone who's walking in for the first year like hey back in the old days, we used to walk to school in the snow with no shoes on both ways. Now it's like get off my lawn you young developers. Seriously what is the evolution of that, how would you explain it? >> Again, I would start with terradata started the industry, by far and then folks like Netease and Green Plum came around to really give a lower cost alternative. Haduke came on the scene eight some years ago, and what I pride myself in being at Green Plum for this long and Green Plum implemented the map produced paradigm as Haduke was starting to build and as it continued to build, we focused on building our own distribution and SQL and Haduke, I think what we're getting down to is the brass tacks of the business is tired of technological science experiments and they just want to get stuff done. >> And a cost of ownership that's manageable. >> And sustainable. >> And sustainable and not in a spot where they're going to be locked into a single vendor, hence the open source. >> The ones that are winning today employed what strategy that ended up working out and what strategy didn't end up working out, if you go back and say, the people who took this path failed, people who took this approach won. What's the answer there? >> Clearly anybody who was an appliance that has long since drifted. I'd also say Green Plum's in this unique position where, >> An appliance too though. >> Well, pseudo appliance yes, I still have to respond to that, we were always software. >> You pivoted luckily. >> But putting that aside, the hardware vendors have gone away, all of the software competitors that we had have actually either been sunset, sold off and forgotten and so Green Plum, here we sit as the sole standard or person that's been around for the long haul. We are now seeing a spot where we have no competition other than the forgotten really legacy guys like terradata. People are longing to get off of legacy and onto something modern, the trick will be whether that modern is some of these new and upcoming players and technologies, or whether it really focuses on solving problems. >> What's the strategy with the winning strategy? Stick to your knitting, stick to what you know or was it more of, >> For us it was two fold, one it was continuing to service our customers and make them successful so that was how we built a profitable data platform business and then the other was to double down on the strategies that seemed to be interesting to organizations which were cloud, open source, and analytics and like you said, I talked to one of the folks over at the Air Force and he was mentioning how to him, data's actually more important than fuel, being able to understand where the airplanes are, where the fuel is, where the people are, where the missiles are etc., that's actually more important than the fuel itself. Data is the thing that powers everything. >> Data's currency of everything now, great Jacque thinks so much for coming on the Cube, Pivotal Data Platform, Data Suite, Green Plum now with all these other adds, that's great congratulations. Stay on the path helping customers, you can't lose. >> Exactly. >> The Cube here helping you figure out the big data noise, we're obviously in big data New York City event for our annual, the annual Cube Wikibon event, in conjunction with Strata Data across the street, more live coverage here for three days here in New York City I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris, we'll be back after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE, covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my host, John Troyer. Really excited to welcome to the program one of the keynote speakers from this morning, Mojgan Lefebvre who is the SVP and chief information officer. We always love CIOs, from Liberty Mutual Insurance Global Specialty. Thank you for your keynote this morning and thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE. >> Thank you, thanks for having me. >> So you went through a lot of data and a lot of information in your keynote. Liberty Mutual, you say spent a billion dollars in tech yearly. There's certain technology companies that spend that much. As the CIO, what are some of the biggest things on your plate and we'll get in the discussion of Cloud Foundry and cloud and everything as we go from there. >> Sure so I'd say probably the priorities differ by the business unit you're in. The specialty business has generally been a bit more manual and we have over 200 or so insurance products. So really automating it is very different from automating consumer insurance which is really focused on home and auto. So really right now, our focus is increasing the productivity and the risk assessment for a lot of our underwriters. And then I say probably analytics, pricing. Making sure that we're assessing risks correctly is definitely another point of focus for us. >> Okay with so many products, we understand the rate of change must be difficult. In your keynote you spoke about embracing cloud and agile methodology. Maybe take us back to what some of the pain points were and led to yourself and management to embrace this big change. >> Yeah, absolutely so several things are going on. One is that we see a lot of new players entering the world of insurance, and it both about new capital coming into the world of insurance. Just 'cause there's not enough investments that capital can be put towards so insurance is one place to come to and the other is technology players that are coming into our world. Companies like Metromile, Lemonade, the list goes on and on and so really our world is changing. Technology is driving a lot of that change and so we know that we've got to be a big player in that area as well. And as I said really, we've got to become one of those software companies that can actually sell insurance as opposed to the other way around. I'd say some of the other things that are happening is the fact that our employees. Our consumers now have all these other software companies that they have experience with and so their expectations are very different. They've got one experience when they're at home and then they come into the workplace and it looks like they've gone back 100 years. So that paradigm needs to change. So those are some of the things that have really made us think we have no choice but to truly change the way that deliver software. We've got to get out of this mode where everything takes multiple years and multiple millions of dollars and really at the end of the day. The people that you started the work with are no longer even there to appreciate what you've delivered to them. And usually it's not what they ask for anyway. >> As you adopted the Cloud Foundry platform. One of the things about Cloud Foundry, even very early in it's life cycle was that it was associated with digital transformation, and cloud native. And especially once it was joined up with Pivotal Labs. So how much of, as you all embark on this journey. The great thing about here at Summit, there is a lot of talk about visual transformation. A lot of talk about agile. That's what we were just talking about. Some shows you go to it's a lot about features and a lot about speeds and feeds. And a lot about the latest, greatest. So how much apart of it as you all were adopting this platform? Was that culture of digital transformation surrounding the actual tech. How important was that? >> I think that was very important because again, as I said we know that, that's what the consumers expect. They no longer want things to be manual. They want things to be at the tips of their fingers and so really transforming us from being a company that's very paper intensive to really being more and more digital was critical to us. The very first application that we actually put in the cloud which was in my business unit was for document management in our Al Fresco. And actually what we named it was we're going paperless. As something that we started about three years ago, and today I can say that yep, we are paperless and so the great thing about Al Fresco was that it was indeed cloud native, and that was very important to us. We started out looking at some of the other solutions that are out there. I won't necessarily name them but they did not lend themselves to the cloud. And so really going with a cloud native solution that would enable us to become much more digital and paperless was very critical to us. >> You talked a lot about developer adoption now in your journey. Was that a tough sell at the very beginning or did developers go wait a minute, This is going to save me a lot of time. I'm on board. >> So you mean with Cloud Foundry in general? >> John: With Cloud Foundry, in general. >> So if anything I'd it was probably the developer community that really sorted this out and so by the time that the leadership and management started to pay attention. There were pockets of developers who were just very, very bought into it, and so I would say that went a long way. And then made it easier to sell it to other developers. I say they're much more listening to what their peers are saying than what we have to say. And then really meeting with the Pivotal Labs guys. I'd say those folks have truly a magical way of selling their story and they've truly helped us. Not only sell it to our developers but also sell the story to our business. I'd say that the mindset shift from thinking I'm going to have everything in one go versus no, I'm going to get it in iterations and I'm actually going to trust the fact that the next releases are going to come is a big mind shift and Pivotal was instrumental in helping sell that to us. >> One of the benefits of Cloud Foundry is to give you flexibility as to where your applications and data live. That being said, a majority of customers that have deployed Cloud Foundry are doing it on premises. How do you manage what goes, stays in your own environment. What handles the public cloud. My understanding you're doing quite a bit of AWS today. What's your viewpoint for you and management on public cloud? >> We certainly see public cloud as the future. I know Chip mentioned something about, well it's not going to be cheaper. We're actually counting on that in the end from a total cost of ownership perspective. That it will be cheaper and we truly mean it when we say we want 75% of the people writing code. And by that I mean the staff within the IT group of course. And we don't want them to have to worry about the infrastructure and so while we've started with AWS, we absolutely have a relationship with Microsoft as well. We definitely want to be independent on this cloud and I would say something like Cloud Foundry definitely allows you to do that. >> When you're looking at that total. That full TCO, you don't have fully burden, I have gear and I have people managing that gear and all the operations there. If you can shift that piece of it. You're not differentiated on the infrastructure or at those needs. You want to focus on those thousands of products that you have and your people coding to create those next opportunities. >> Exactly. We want to focus on the value add. That's where we want our people to really be focusing and we want to let the cloud players who do it extremely well to be doing that for us. >> You put forth in your keynotes some pretty audacious metrics. I think it was 60% of the work load public cloud. More than 50% of apps to release code on daily basis and you wanted 75% of the IT staff to write code. How did you come up with those numbers. How are doing against those? >> About a year ago, once we decided that the imperative for change was so critical. The IT leadership team got together. We spent a couple of days off site and we said let's come up with what we're calling today our IT manifesto. And so we said we just have to change and there are multiple things that we're going to change. And we said we're going to put some, what we call bold, audacious moves or BAMS as they've come to be known together. And so those were just some, we knew they were out of right to some extent, but we said if we don't really put some goals that are really hard to reach, we're never going to get there. >> What are some of the head winds there? What have slowed you from meeting those and any lessons learned that you share to your peers on what you've learned going through this. >> Certainly deciding on what goes to the clouds first is one of those areas that we're learning as we're doing. We know that it's easy when you're working in a greenfield and it's something new. So yeah, you can very easily say I'll build in the cloud. When you're looking at what you're existing environment is and what you move to the cloud. One of the questions as well, if we move all of our development environment. How's that going to interact with the production environment. If you have them in different clouds. Other things are how it interacts with active directory and held app and some of those things. And I say finally would be kind of the global applications always make it much more difficult as you think. How do you replicate among different clouds in different geographies. Those are some of the blockers that we've got to tackle and make sure that we get around. >> One of the interesting parts of any management strategy in any company is skills, up skilling. So how have you been approaching that in terms of this new cloud native world. Both for the devs, is this year at Cloud Foundry Summit. Are people here learning? There's new certifications. >> I say it's a multi prong approach. We definitely have partnered with several companies to put some training together to make sure that we're training our staff. We started a program that we call go for code and so we've asked volunteers. For people who are not coding today and who want to get there that actually they go to these coding schools and they're going to spend the next two to three months actually learning how to code. It's very rigorous. >> So they might have been technical in an infrastructure way before and they want to learn how to code? >> Yeah, it may be that or they may have just been business analysts who are just doing requirements gathering or project management, and they want to learn how to code. So we've tried to be as transparent as possible because when you say I want 75% of my IT staff to be coding. Like you've got 50% who are not coding today. There's a message in that and so of course it's up to us to make sure that we're providing the tools and what's needed for that to happen. Our goal is to get anyone on our staff who really wants to get there and is willing to put the sweat in to be able to do it. 'Cause we also know it's not like software engineers are just lying out there on the streets. There is a shortage of software engineers and that's going to become more and more of a problem. So really getting our own employees that we value greatly to be able to do that transformation, I think is critical for us. >> Another great one line, you had your keynote was out with the annual, in with the weekly. I think you said it was 16 releases in five months. The counter to that and I'm curious how you deal with it and talk to your peers is how do people keep up with just all the changes that are happening? I talk to the companies that create code on just regular occasions and they can't keep up. And how do you make sure your staff doesn't get burned out? >> So great, great question again. We're at the very beginnings of our transformation. The one thing I will say is looking at the team that did this and did the 16 releases in five months versus teams that are working on annual releases. The energy, the enthusiasm, the excitement and hopefully some of it came through in the video that you saw is just phenomenal. So I'd say, I'm much less worried about them burning out than hey can we keep the others as excited. I will tell you automation and things like Cloud Foundry that actually help you automate your pipeline are critical. You can not do multiple releases or daily releases if you don't have those tools. If you truly get to the point where you do have the automated pipeline. I think a lot of that is done for you so that's what we're gearing towards and driving towards. >> One of the things that people always love to pontificate is in the future, what is the role of the CIO? We'd love to see you embracing things like cloud because it was like well, when I had gear, and I had capital budget I understood it. But I'm changing the role. I'm doing that. What have you been seeing as the changing role? Anything down the line you see and how that changes? >> You're right, so a lot of people say, well there is no need for a CIO in the future. I'd say there's probably more and more need for very business oriented, strategic CIOs who also understands technology really well and they're the epitome of someone who understands technology and is the head of engineering so to speak. But also making sure that they can work very well with the business and understands the impact of technology on the business. I'll be waiting for the day where the need for someone like that goes away. I don't see it coming too soon. >> Final question I have for you is what brings you to an event like this? Spend the time, give the keynote. What do you get out of it personally and for your company? >> One is really learning 'cause again, if you're a doctor in medicine. If you want to keep up with what's going on around you you've got to educate yourself. So certainly that aspect of go out there, see what's going on. Making sure that you're keeping up with new technology that's one thing. The other was my experience with Pivotal has been phenomenal, and so I thought it was critical to actually take the opportunity to share that. Hopefully others will learn. A lot of the tweets that I saw was well, if a big 100 year old insurance company can do this. Then nobody has an excuse and I'll say yeah of course. So it's really both to give back and to continue to learn and then to reconnect with colleagues. Cornelia and I actually worked together over 10 years ago. So just coming to here and being able to have dinner with her tonight is going to be very enjoyable. >> Absolutely a tight knit community. Really appreciate you coming on the program. We welcome you to theCUBE alumni list now, our community, >> Thank you. Of the thousands that we had on the program. From John and myself, we'll be back with lots more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry Summit. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (uptempo techno music)