>> Live, from Las Vegas! It's theCUBE! Covering the VMworld 2018. Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back. We're in Las Vegas, and you're watching theCUBE's exclusive coverage of VMworld 2018. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my cohost Justin Warren, and happy to welcome to the program for the first time, James Labocki, who's a director of product management with Red Hat. And joining him is CUBE alum, Rob Young, who's the lead manager of virtualization product management strategy, also with Red Hat, wearing the shadow man logo. Rob, James, thank you so much for joining us. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> Alright, so Rob, we touch base with Red Hat at a number of shows, you know, Red Hat Summit. We spoke with you last year at VMworld. Give us the update, Red Hat's got a nice booth here at the show, A lot of things going on, Red Hat plays in a lot of the multi-cloud environments that I hear VMware talking about, so, talk about your presence here. >> So, Red Hat has done quite a bit of growing over the course of the last year that we talked. We are focused on not only where our customers are today, but also on how our portfolio needs to evolve to where they aspire to be. And by that, I mean, RHEL is still the foundation of our business. We have Red Hat Virtualization, we have OpenStack Platform, we have the OpenShift, as you know, and what we're learning from our customers and the market, is that, on top of RHEL, customers have not only a footprint in the virtualization world, but they have an aspiration to evolve along with the market to more of a containerized world that is managed, orchestrated, delivered via Kubernetes, and we feel that our portfolio is well positioned with the pillars of our business from infrastructure to application middleware all the way through management, to allow them to act on those aspirations, not in the future but right now. So that's where we are. Our strategy is build around that vision and around that level of enablement and market dynamic, right now, so we're excited, would you agree? >> Yeah absolutely. A lot of interest in OpenShifted option, whether that's on the Vmware platform itself, out on the public clouds, and then on KVR, KVM based hypervisors with Red Hat Virtualization OpenStack Platform as well. >> Yeah it's interesting because, I've watched this adoption of containerization in the marketplace. What's the line I hear from Red Hat? It's like, Linux is containers, containers are Linux. >> Hey you got that good. >> Yeah I got the t shirt too. But, you know, here at VMworld, some people are still trying to understand that virtualization versus containers and, "How do I stack things?" "How do I do that?" What do you hear from customers? Where is their head at? Talk to us about, you know, it's pervasive in the product line so how do you think about it internally too? >> Yeah absolutely so, I think containers are absolutely Linux and Linux is fundamental to containers, so I think one of the most interesting paradigms that we're seeing, or one of the interesting trends we're seeing is that as people are beginning to adopt containers, they're also beginning to realize that they're looking to simplify their environments as they do that. And so it's presenting a lot of new opportunities and reinvigoration of other technologies. So things like traditional virtualization that they have in place today, they're looking at, maybe bringing along KVM and starting to orchestrate containers and virtual machines with Kubernetes in a consistent manner across both on-premise and public cloud providers. So, we're really excited to be involved in projects around that. We're helping drive the adoption of that. And with that reinvigoration of KVM as a hypervisor, based on that work, to bring a common orchestration layer we're seeing even reinvigoration of the ecosystem around KVM with partners of ours like Trilio, Maxta, Veeam, and so on and so forth, which have been kind of discussed in... >> Yeah, Sorry. >> Well I was just going to add to what Dave said. What we see also happening is that the Linux market 25 years ago was open-source, contributor laden. Red Hat was fully engaged there, we are seeing that very same dynamic happening in the Kubernetes environment. We actually see that as very much the equivalent of what Linux was 25 years ago, so we are contributing upstream to the Kubernetes project, but our goal really is not only to stabilize and build out Kubernetes, but also to bring the virtualization aspect that we had brought into KVM and to virtualization into the Kubernetes project and community so that we can get rid of an additional layer of complexity around the hypervisor allowing containers to be managed and deployed and to have the same isolation levels that you have with VMs now. So all that is in process now. We've got upstream work going on and we're leading a lot of those contributions in the Kubernetes community, specifically via the Kubert project so anyway... >> Leads nicely into what I wanted to ask about which was, Red Hat has a long history of open-source, and open-source is a really important part of containers in general. What are you seeing for enterprises in their adoption of open-source? I mean clearly you've watched it go from something which was once verboten, to now it's pretty much de facto. So what are you seeing customers using open-source for in this new cloud and container world? >> Yeah so I think, you know, the typical pattern we see is a lot of times previously people would look at open-source as a way to commoditize and reduce cost. That was the beginning of open-sources right, with the UNIX to Linux migrations and things of that nature. Now, open-source and really Linux is at the forefront of a lot of the innovation happening, so customers are using both those, basically, techniques inside of their environments to embrace open-source. So at one point, they're using their Linux skills to commoditize things inside their environment or reduce cost. They're also looking at it as the basis of containers, microservices, machine learning, so on and so forth, so really this common skillset of Linux is kind of on both sides, and it's really rooted in the open-source knowledge and methodologies that our customers need to be able to... >> You hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned that everything that has to do with the new modernization of the data center built on containers is open-source, and Red Hat's participation in the community is we already have credibility in the Linux world and the OpenStack world and the KVM world and the Kubernetes world as well, and what we're seeing on the customer side, specifically enterprise and public sector is, they are embracing open-source. They've actually got strategies that named open-source as part of the criteria for proof of concepts and things like that, and we believe we've been preparing for this moment for the last 25 years, for the market to really see this as an open opportunity, not only for open-source and communities, but also to enable their development staffs to extend and participate in those projects to their advantage, so it's a really good thing, for a Red Hat market. >> Yeah it's certainly encouraging to see it. Having watched it develop, it's been really nice seeing that actually get used with enterprises, and seeing that Red Hat is there, the whole way through that and as a trusted partner I'm sure gives them a lot of confidence. >> One thing I would add is just, it's not just about the ability to deliver open-source and to use it, although delivering that with along lifecycle is something that is a core competency of Red Hat as a company, but also the ability to actually affect change in those communities and get contributions back in is really key. And then, even advising customers on how to do that is something that we're, it's just to say, "Hey we do open-source," but actually providing that lifecycle around it is a whole nother story. >> Red Hat has a lot of experience living in a lot of different environments, just Linux is pervasive in the data center and in the cloud. When you talk about multi-cloud, customers need to figure out how to deal with these multi-could environments and you know, multi-cloud, multi-hypervisor, how does Red Hat help customers through this journey? >> So there's, we have a really good story there and really good enablement. There are basically four footprints that you can deploy an application on, physical, virtual; public, and private cloud, and red hat portfolio deploys nicely there, RHEL, VMs, OpenStack, OpenShift, containers, you name it. So our approach is, not only do we allow the deployment there, but also the management of it as well, and we agree with you wholeheartedly, workloads are portable, they're mobile, people are going to move them between clouds, on site, they're going to burst into clouds, so our solution to that is the management console that we provide with CloudForms, and our management vision going forward for software as a service and some other things that we're doing, is all about that heterogeneous environment. Multiple hypervisor, multiple cloud providers, multiple OSs as well, so, you know, we want people to see Red Hat as a platform to stabilize on, not a solution where they have to go out and cobble together a solution. They should be able to do everything with our product in a portfolio from a single management console, including that heterogeneous environment with multiple hypervisor, multiple cloud. So that's how we approach it and we're building on that concept, not only with CloudForms, but also with the new CoreOS Tectonic Platform that we just, acquired, that'll be part of OpenShift, and then going forward our management business unit is working on software as a service, consumption based model that allows customers to do the same thing from their phone as an example. It's that vision that we've already executed on, but it's only going to get bigger going forward. >> One thing I would add is, one thing that's fundamental to our vision is that we're actually delivering a consistency across all those footprints so, it's not one version of Kubernetes for public cloud, another version for on-premise, a different automation tool here and a different automation tool there, it's consistent right? Ansible automation across bare metal on-premise, virtualization, private, public cloud, OpenShift with the foundation of RHEL, consistent across all those for one version of Kubernetes across all of them. So I think that's a big key differentiator as opposed to some of the other visions where you have one version on public cloud, one version on private, different disparate tools tools for each of those. We really believe in simplifying that from a complexity standpoint. >> Well Rob and James, really appreciate you giving us the update on Red Hat. We'll be back with lots more coverage from VMworld 2018. For Justin Warren, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE.

(upbeat electronic music) >> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to The Cube's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. I'm Stu Miniman with my co-host John Troyer. Happy to welcome back a company we've spoken to a few times at events, Paddy Power Betfair. First time guest coming to us from across the pond, Dave Buckley who is the automation engineer with Paddy Power Betfair, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so first of all, you've been to a couple summits and we've talked to Paddy Power about OpenStack. Before we get into your specific implementation, tell us about your experience here this week and any compare, contrast to previous years. >> Yeah so I'm very lucky, I got to come to the previous two summits in North America. I guess what I've enjoyed this week, it's kind of a slight tilt towards, it's away from being purely OpenStack, kind of towards this open infrastructure kind of thing, 'cause like I said, especially last year in Boston, Q and NEs was becoming a big thing. Yeah, and kind of, the OpenStack Foundation becoming kind of more, not that it wasn't before, but more community-based and being part of the ecosystem. So, yeah, I think it's been quite interesting seeing that. >> Not to put words in your mouth but, it was even, the last year or two, it's more aware of some of the complimentary things and adding pieces. You know, we had, one of the interviews we did this week was person who's the SIC lead for the Kubernetes stuff, that sits under another Foundation, things like that. Yeah, exactly. It's been quite interesting this week, I guess, sort the Kata Container project, which wasn't something I'd been aware of before Monday morning basically. I remember we were sitting in the keynotes, and they were like, you can have this container-like thing which has all the speed of a container, but it's as secure as a BM. And you're thinking, how, how is that even possible? So I've really enjoyed, I got to go to one of the sessions yesterday, one of the technical introductions on that. >> Yeah, I always love, there's certain things where, okay, this is what I'm going to do with my schedule, and turns into, this got announced, or I didn't know about this, and you knew, blow up my schedule, let me change everything else. Yeah, exactly, I think you always, you can't, you have to be flexible, right? Adaptable, and as the week goes on you just go to what you think is interesting. >> John: So Dave, you and your company have been working with OpenStack for quite a while. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And you obviously run a system that needs to be stable. Right, needs to, you take care of betting and people's money. >> Dave: Exactly. >> So that needs to be solid. But I understand you recently went though an upgrade and have some experiences talking about that? Can you talk a little bit about where you are with your OpenStack implementation and that sort of migration? >> Sure. So, I guess it's about three years ago, it was Betfair at the time, so this was before the merger of the two companies. So Betfair started using OpenStack, and I think it was actually the last time the summit was here, in Vancouver. So a couple of my colleagues who were kind of the technical leads at the time. Steve Armstrong and Steve Perera, they flew out here, to kind of get a feel for OpenStack, what it was, talk to people who'd had experiences with it. I actually think that conference back then was very informative of what the platform today now looks like. So some of the conversations they had there with people like New Age Networks and Arista, which we used for the switching, but conversations they had there kind of ended up being now what we're using in production. I guess over the past couple of years, so the big thing that happened obviously was this merger between Paddy Power and Betfair, following that they had an exercise which they called the single customer platform, which is annoyingly, for a sys-admin guy, kind of like me, they, it's always been abbreviated to SCP, but you have to ignore that. So that was to kind of consolidate and integrate the Paddy Power and Betfair co-bases and put it on a single platform, which was our OpenStack and Nuage platform. So that kind of completed in January this year, so that's live, so basically the Paddy Power sports book has an entirely new website, all running on OpenStack. A lot quicker and more efficient then the previous version. So that's been a real success. And as part of that, I should say that stability is really vital, so kind of in our business. If the site is down we don't make any money, and if it happens during a big sporting event you have a big problem. >> Do you have a metric around that? What a minute or an hour of down time would be? >> So I guess it always depends, so the nature of our traffic is very spikey. So obviously when you have a big, it's on a Saturday in Europe, the football, soccer, maybe I should say, is like a very big deal. >> We have a global audience, football's okay. >> I'll stick with football then. >> We were all watching the royal wedding. >> I don't want to talk about that. The football, if you, we just get peak traffic on that day. And, even within the year, there's a thing called the Grand National, which is a big event in the UK, big horse racing, I guess like the Kentucky Derby. It's kind of when we get our maximum traffic in the year. Yeah, you always need to be prepared for that. So one of the things as you mentioned, we kind of look into upgrade OpenStack from Kilo to Newton. So we've been on Kilo from the start. We're using Red Hat's distribution of OpenStack, so what Red Hat offer is this, they have like every three releases I think it is? They have this long release life-cycle. So that's kind of the reason we're going to Newton, cause we have kind of the, then the support will go to 2021. [Stu] - But if I remember, it's Red Hat the OpenStack Platform 10. >> Dave: Yeah. >> And 13 is going to be queened as their next one that's going to be released. >> Exactly, so I think they just announced that this week, right? So I think at some point in the next year or two we'd be going to queens. >> How do you determine when you make that jump and anything around the upgrade process, you know, good and bad that you could share. >> Dave: Yeah, so I guess going from, we were overdue an upgrade in this case, Kilos, you know, pretty old now. What we're lucky that we can do is because we have Nuage, it's like an external SDM provider, so the entire data plane is controlled by Nuage, and you can kind of plug as many OpenStacks as you like really into Nuage, and you offload all the networking to Nuage. So what's that's allowed us to do is basically we'd have had a lot of trouble if we'd had to do an in place upgrade, so I've actually been to one of the groups this week, quite a lot of people were talking about upgrades and just like all the nightmares it's caused. I know it's getting better as like the releases come out, but what we were able to do is kind of building new, an entirely new OpenStack cloud on the side of, so we've kind of turned it kind of an immutable OpenStack, so your OSB 7 cloud is there, we built this new OSB 10. But they're both circ into the same networking, so the same Nuage SDN. And the way our developers deploy their applications, I guess you want to see this in more detail, we've done presentations at these summits in the past, but kind of in short, every deployment we do immutable deployments as well, so for every deployment we'll create a new subnet within Nuage, and kind of do rolling update of your VMs that are on that new subnet into like a VIP which is kind of where the constant is, so all the traffic's come in to that VIP then you just flip things in and out below it when you do a deployment, so what that basically means is from a developers point of view, when they're migrating from OSB 7 to OSB 10 they'll essentially spin up new networks and new VMs in OSB 10 and that deployment pipeline will kind of just seamlessly, everything else will stay the same because the networking doesn't change. So we don't have to have any downtime on the data plane or the control plane. Which is really beneficial for us 'cause the way, I guess this is I'll just describe the way developers do deployments like we rely heavily on the OpenStack API being available. You pay a cost in that you, so you need extra hardware to do that I guess, but yeah we found it is something that's worked for us. >> John: Anything else with the networking and specifically that you all are running, the load balancing or resiliency that you need to have for your apps? >> Dave: Yeah so one of the things was, so it's kind of another problem there were trying to solve with this whole project, this new OpenStack platform is that historically Betfair, as it was at the time, had always run out of a single data-center. But we had another site, but it was mainly kind of a development environments right in there. So the company thought why don't we just have, we should just have both DCs for resiliency, try and run things in like an active-active configuration. Which is fine for external customer facing applications where we've had an external load balance server that can point traffic between the two DCs. But then the question is what do you do with internal apps? So this is what led us to use Avi Networks, which is kind of a cloud native load balancing technology, so we've been using to provide like GSLB internal laps, so basically we'll load balance traffic between the two data-centers so it gets deployed within your OpenStack environment, has a really neat integration with Nuage, the Nuage SDN layer, and will resolve you to whichever data-center is appropriate at that time. So if you have a full data-center outtage, you should be able to go "Okay, point stuff over there". >> John: So it makes you and the networking team or the IT team into the heroes not the villains, you're usually the people saying "No" or "We can't do that". >> I guess so, I guess so yeah you're probably right. It's cool technology though. I guess that we're very lucky and that we're given the opportunity by the people at the company to experiment with new things, so even though we're about stability but we're also about trying to push things forward in terms of what technology to use. >> Stu: Dave I'm curious how kind of the hybrid or multi-cloud type of environments fit into what you're doing today, give us the update there. >> Dave: Yeah so that's something very in our radar at the moment I guess it's, yeah it's what everybody's doing, looking to how you can have this hybrid cloud model. So I think, going back three years again, at that time, being like an online betting company, it's a highly regulated business and only at that point it was really possible to kind of put some of this stuff into the public cloud, it seems like things have come a long way, so it's something we're looking at at the moment, we're evaluating different solutions, different vendors like the Googles, AWSs, and seeing or even like some OpenStack public clouds and seeing maybe how could we migrate some workloads out into the public cloud, how do we want to that, to give us more resiliency, and also as I was saying about our spiky traffic, it just makes a lot of sense to be able to say burst out into whichever public cloud vendor on a Saturday when the football's on to deal with that peak load. So it's something we're very much looking at at the moment. But yeah no formal decisions as of yet. Unless they've done something while I've been away. >> John: With containers here at the show, lots of different threads right? Containers, Edge, the OpenDev track, things like that. Anything else, we've talked about Kata, anything else that came up that was interesting here that you just watch Kubernetes and container track as well? >> Dave: So I guess in terms of containers it's, sitting in the Keynotes on Monday you would, if you weren't watching if you were just listening, you probably wouldn't know you were at an OpenStack Summit right since there's as much Kubernetes container stuff as there is OpenStack. It's interesting so we've kind of been doing... Again, similar to the public cloud conversation, it's something that's very relevant to us at the moment, we've done kind of a few proof-of-concept ideas, evaluating different solutions, so we have like running a Cube cluster ourself, obviously we have a strong relationship with Red Hat that we've kind of explored to using OpenShift maybe, and then come the networking layer you can integrate with Nuage which would be really cool for us so it'll allow us to do kind of the all the networking, access control mechanisms as we do for our virtual machines. And again this is also something in the whole public cloud conversation is well if wanted to containers in the public cloud as well like you have all the different offerings, would we want to run our own, in like an AWS or something? Or maybe go to someone like Google where you have that supported self-service model I suppose. But yeah at the moment it's kind of at those stages so I think Steve did a presentation on the Kubernetes stuff like a PCO we done at the last Summit. But yeah still at the moment still want to make some firm decisions about which direction we're going to go but a lot of the developers a very keen for this and obviously for guys like us we all know the value of it so I think at the moment because we had that focus on stability we should now have a period of time where we're able to kind of look at all this stuff a bit more, hopefully get some container solutions into production which would be awesome. >> Stu: Dave Buckley we really appreciate you giving us the update, love to be able to do some of those longitudinal case studies as to where you've been where you're going, what you're thinking about. Be sure to check out thecube.net, you can actually search for Patty Power Betfair, see some of those previous interviews from Dave's peers. Loads more interviews there as well as all the shows we're going to be at in the future where hope you come by and say "Hi". For John Troyer I'm Stu Miniman, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> (electro-dance music) >> (soft piano)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Vancouver, Canada, It's theCUBE. Covering OpenStack Summit, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018, here in Vancouver. Three days wall-to-wall coverage. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost, John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, Radhesh Balakrishnan, who is the general manager of OpenStack with Red Hat. Radhesh, great to see you. It's been a week since John talked to you, and always good to have you on at the show. >> Great to be on. Good to be here talking about OpenStack at OpenStack Summit. >> Yeah so, look, OpenStack is in the title of your job. I believe, did we have a birthday cake and a party celebrating a certain milestone? >> That is indeed true; so it's the fifth anniversary of that fact that we've had a product, Red Hat OpenStack Platform, on the market. And so, we've been doing a little bit of a look back at how far we have come in the last five years as well as looking ahead at, you know, how does the next three to five years shape as well. >> Yeah, Radhesh, I'm going to date myself and when I think back to, gosh it was 18 years ago, I was working with Linux, and there were kernels all over the place and things like that. And then, I worked for an enterprise storage company and was like, ugh, like keeping up with Chrome.org was a pain in the neck. There came out this thing called Red Hat Advanced Server that was like, oh wait, we can glom onto this, we can support this with our customers, and that eventually turned into RHEL, which, of course, kind of becomes the main standard for how to do Linux. I feel like we have a lot of similarities. >> Radhesh: Absolutely, absolutely. >> In how we did. RHOSP, I believe, is the acronym, so. >> That's exactly right, and we like to have long names. >> Which are very descriptive, but Red Hat OpenStack Platform, fundamentally, to your point brings the same valid proposition that RHEL brought to Linux, to OpenStack, with the twist that, it's not just curated OpenStack, but it's a co-engineered solution of Linux and Cavium and OpenStack. And along the way we learned that, look, it's not just OpenStack and the infrastructure solution. It's done in conjunction with the software-defined storage solution or it's done in conjunction with software-defined networking. Or, fast-forward all the way now, it's being done in conjunction with cloud-native applications running on top of it, right? But regardless, in five years we've been able to grow to address these different demands being placed at infrastructure level, and at the same time evolved to address new-use cases as well; Telco is an example of that. >> Radhesh, let's spend a couple of minutes, though, on the OpenStack Platform itself from Red Hat. Some of the things, guys, that you were bringing to market, I know we talked about, here at the show, fast-forward upgrades, for instance were, they were just introducing, and maybe some other things in the Queens release that you all are bringing forward and have engineered. >> Yeah, thanks for that question, very topical, in the sense that yesterday we launched OSP 13, which is the latest and greatest version based on Queens release. If you look at the innovation packed in that it fundamentally falls in three buckets. One is the bread part that you talked about, whereby, anybody who is standing on OSP 10, which was the prior, long-release lifecycle product, over to 13, how do you kind of get over there in a graceful manner is the first area that we have addressed. The second area is around security, because how do you make sure that OpenStack-based clouds are secure by default, from the day you roll out all the way to until you retire it, right? I don't know if there's going to be a retirement, but that's the intent of all the security enablements that we have in the product as well. And the third one, how do we make sure that containers in OpenStack can come together in a nice manner. >> Yeah, the container piece is something else that, so a lot of effort, here at the show. They announced Kata containers, which, trying to give the security of a VM, lightweight VM. How does Red Hat look at Kata containers? I know Red Hat, you know Linux's containers, you know, very strong position, fill us in on that. >> Yeah, to maybe pull back a little bit and then look at the larger picture of there is the notion of infrastructure or the open infrastructure that you need and OpenStack is a good starting point for that. And then, you overlay on top of that an application deployment management configuration, lifecycle management solution that's the container platform called OpenShift, right. These are the two centers of gravity for the stack. Now, aspects such as Kata containers or Hubbard, which is for again, similar concept of addressing how do you use virtualization in addition to containers to bring some of the value around security et cetera, right? So we are continuing to engage in all these upstream projects, but we'll be careful and methodical in bringing those technologies into our products as we go along. >> Okay, how about Edge is the other kind of major topic that we're having here, I know I've interviewed some Red Hat customers looking at NFV solutions, so some of the big telcos you know specifically that use various pieces. What do you hear from your customers and help us kind of draw that line between the NFV to the Edge. Yeah, so Edge has become the center is kind of the new joke in the sense that, from an NFV perspective, customers have already effectively addressed the CORD errors and the challenges, now it's about how do you scale that and deploy that on a massive scale, right? That's a good problem to have. Now the goodness of virtualization can be brought all the way down to the radio Edge so that a programmable network becomes the reality that a telco or a carrier can get into. So in that context, Edge becomes a series of use cases. You know, it's not just one destination. Another way to say it is there is Edge an objective and there is Edge as a noun. Edge as the objective is a set of technologies that are enabling Edge, Edge networking, right. Edge management, for example, and then Edge as a destination where you have a series of Edge locations starting from CORD error center going all the way to radio. Now, the technology answers for all these are just being figured out right now. So you can say, you know, put crudely, KBM, OpenStack, containers, and Ansible will be all good elements that will come into the picture when it comes to a solution for all these footprints. >> Nice. Radhesh, maybe let's switch over to talk about the summit here, and the people here, filled with people being productive with OpenStack, right? Either looking at it, upgrading it, inheriting it. We talked to people in a bunch of different scenarios Red Hat, huge installed base, and you are good at helping and supporting, and uplifting, and upskilling a set of operators who started with Linux and now have to be responsible for an entire cloud infrastructure. Plus, now, at this conference, we've been talking about containers, we've been talking about open dev, right. That's again broadening the scope of what an operator might have to deal with. How does Red Hat look at that? How are you and your team helping upskill and enhance the role of the operator? >> Yeah, so I think it comes down to, how do we make sure that we are understanding the journey that the operator himself or herself is taking from a career perspective, right, the skill set of evolving from Linux and core automation-related skills to going to being able to understand what does it mean to live with cloud implementation on a day-to-day basis. What does it mean to live with network function virtualization as the way in which new services are going to be deployed. So, our course curriculum has evolved to be able to address all these needs today. That's one dimension, the other dimension is how do we make sure that the product itself is so easy that the journey is getting to a point where the infrastructure is invisible, and the focus is on the application platform on top. So I think we have multiple areas of focus to get to the point where it's so relevant that it's invisible, if that paradox makes sense. That's what we're trying to make happen with OpenStack. >> Radhesh, Red Hat has a very large presence at the show here; we were noting in the keynote the underlying infrastructure didn't get a lot of discussion because it is more mature, and therefore, we can talk about everything like VGPUs and containers, and everything like that. But Red Hat has a lot in the portfolio that helps in some of those underlying pieces. So maybe you can give us some of the highlights there. >> Absolutely, so we aren't looking at OpenStack as the be-all end-all destination for customers, but rather an essential ingredient in the journey to a hybrid cloud. So when you have that lens it becomes natural to you that a portfolio of our offerings, which are either first-party or in conjunction with our partners --we have over 400 partners with whom we have joint solutions as well -- so you naturally take a holistic view and then say, "How do you optimize the experience of ceph plus OpenStack for example." So we were talking about Edge recently, right, in the context of Edge we realize that there is a particular use-case for hyperconverged infrastructure whereby you need to collocate, compute, and store it in a way that the footprint is so small and easy to manage plus you want to have one life-cycle both for OpenStack and ceph right, so to address that we announced, right at hypercloud infrastructure for cloud, as an offering that is co-engineered between ceph team, or our storage team, and the OpenStack team. Right, that's just an example of how, by bringing the rest of the portfolio, we're able to address needs being expressed by our customers today. Or you look forward in terms of use-case, one thing that we are hearing from all our large customers, such as the Amadeus's of the world is, make the experience of OpenShift on OpenStack, easy to deploy and manage, as well as reduce the penalty of running containers on VMs. Because we understand the benefits of security and all of that, but we want to be able to get that without having any penalty of using a virtual infrastructure so that's why we're heavily focused on OpenShift, on OpenStack, as the form-factor for delivering that while continuing to work on things such as Kata containers as well as, you know, Kuryrs, as technology is evolving to make communities much richer as well as the infrastructure management at OpenStack level richer. >> You brought up an interesting point, we spoke a little bit yesterday with John Allessio and Margaret Dawson, about really that kind of multi-cloud world out there, because pieces like Kubernetes and Ansible, aren't just in the data center with this one stack, it's spanning across multiple environments and when we talk to customers, they do cloud, and cloud is multiple things in multiple places and changing all the time. So I'd love to get your viewpoint on what you hear from customers, how Red Hat's helping them across all those environments. >> Absolutely, so the key differentiation we see in being able to provide to our customers is that unlike some of the other providers out there, they're where they are stitching you with a particular private cloud, with the particular public cloud, and then saying, "Hey, this is sort of the equivalent of the AOL walled gardens, if you will, right, that's being created for a particular private and public cloud. What we're saying is fundamentally three things. First is, the foundation of Linux skills from RHEL that you have is going to be what you can build on to innovate for today and tomorrow, that's number one. Secondly, you can invest in infrastructure that is 100% open using OpenStack so that you can use commodity hardware, bring in multiple use-cases which are bleeding it, such as data lags, big data, Apache Spark, or going all the way to cloud-native application, development on top of OpenStack. And then last but not least, when you are embarking on a multi-cloud journey it is important that you're not tied to innovation speed of one particular public cloud provider, or even a private cloud provider, for that matter, so being able to get to a container platform, which is OpenShift, that can run pretty much everywhere, either on PREM or on a public cloud, and give you that single pane of consistency for your application, which is where business and IT alignment is the focus right now, then I think you've got the best of all the worlds. You know, freedom from vendor-lock in, and a future-proof infrastructure and application platform that can take you to where you need to go, right. So pretty excited to be able to deliver on that consistently as of today, as well as in the coming years. >> All right, we just want to give you the final word, for people out there that ... you know, often they get their opinion based on when they first heard of something. OpenStack's been around for a number of years, five years now, with your platform. Give us the takeaway for 2018 here from OpenStack Summit as to how they should be thinking about OpenStack, in that larger picture. >> The key takeaway is that OpenStack is rock-solid, that you can bring into your environment, not just to power your virtual machine infrastructure, but also baremetal infrastructure on which you can bring in containers as well. So if you're thinking about an infrastructure fabric, either to power your telco network or to power your private cloud in its entirety OpenStack is the only place that you need to be looking at and our OpenStack platform from end to end delivers that value proposition. Now the second aspect to think about is, OpenStack is a step in the journey of a hybrid future destination that you can get to. Red Hat not only has the set of surround products and technologies to round-up the solution, but also have the largest partner ecosystem to offer you choice. So what's your excuse from getting to a hybrid cloud today if not tomorrow? >> Well, Radhesh Balakrishnan, thank you for all the updates appreciate catching up with you once again. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Minimam, getting near the end of three days wall-to-wall coverage here in Vancouver, thank you so much for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Vancouver, Canada, it's theCUBE covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, The OpenStack Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of OpenStack Summit 2018 in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia. It's Victoria Day, but we're working. So for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Happy to welcome back to the program, we've got Tim Burke who's the Vice President of Infrastructure and Cloud Engineering with Red Hat, and fresh off the keynote stage we have Mark McLoughlin who's the Senior Director of Engineering for OpenStack, also with Red Hat. Gentleman, thank you so much for joining us. >> Our pleasure, thank you. >> Thank you. All right, so Mark, I'll start with you. Keynote stage, you had a good discussion about, we were talking about open source, talking about community, is the themes that we heard at Red Hat Summit last weekend and again here at OpenStack. It's a nice couple of years in a row we've had the back-to-back of those two shows, so give us a little bit encapsulation of that message. >> Sure, I mean the key message of the keynote, really, was talking about the overlapping missions between the OpenStack and Kubernetes and really kind of showing how they come together for our customers and for users generally in terms of tackling that kind of broad, open infrastructure challenge of trying to give businesses the opportunity to be free from the infrastructure providers in terms of being able to switch between infrastructure providers and also OpenStack in terms of its role offering kind of on-premise infrastructure as an alternative to the public cloud. >> Yeah, Tim, I want to get your viewpoint on some things. It's interesting, we talk about we're at the OpenStack show but we're talking about containers, we're talking about edge computing. I think about one of the other foundations, The Linux Foundation does way more than Linux these days. They're doing all the cloud native things. Reminds me a lot of Red Hat themselves, broad spectrum of products. Sometimes it can almost get a little bit overwhelming for most people to say, "Oh my god, "there's so many projects, there's so many products. "How do you help me get to where I need to go "and where I need to go tomorrow?" What are you hearing from customers? How do you manage that? >> I think a lot of this mirrors Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and back when we started it was the day of the Unix wars, right? And in the early days of Linux it was this big challenge of getting your graphics drivers and putting all these pieces together, right? And now today it's more about broader infrastructure orchestration. And you see Mark Collier, for example, from The OpenStack Foundation started today showing a list of 30 different components that you have to piece together. And really, I think that that's what Red Hat focuses on, is two things. It's one, is where do we want to take the technology tomorrow through our open source fund, ranging from Linux to OpenStack and Ceph Filesystems, for example. But it's not just that. It's how do you get these pieces to work together? And I think that that's something that hasn't traditionally been the strength of the open source community because they may stick into these silos of operation. And I think that Red Hat's focus and strength right now is to do what we did for Red Hat Enterprise Linux in the OpenStack space by pulling all of these pieces together in a consumable and supported manner. >> Yeah, it's funny you mention getting graphics cards in. Come on, with the Queen's announcement we now have the virtual GPU support, so it feels like, but you know what, we've come so far yet. We're doing some of the same things over again. What are you hearing that's just massively different about kind of the state of open source today? And we just had one of your customers on talking about their digital transformation. >> I think what's really changed over the years in open source is I think it started out, honestly, as a clone. It was like can we compete with the likes of Solaris, right? And so it was, I'd call it catch up for innovation. Now you look at open source. It's not catching up, it's leading all the innovation today whether it's all the major public clouds are based on open source technologies. When we started open source was unproven and many customers were skeptical of consuming it. Now you're seeing customers, governments, all sorts of different businesses demanding open source because they want choice, they don't want to be locked into any one vendor, and they want to be able to work collaboratively to harness the power. And I think that collective collaborative model has really pretty proven its effectiveness. >> Mark, I wanted to talk a little bit about OpenStack itself. I think last year at OpenStack Summit there was a lot of talk. People seemed to be a little bit confused or at least there was a lot of interesting architectural conversations, containers on top, containers on the bottom, what sits on the bare metal. This year both at Red Hat Summit and here and even in the industry at large I think a lot of that conversation has clarified. There's the (laughs) application layer and there's an infrastructure layer which does very hard things that the application layer does not have to worry about. How are you looking at OpenStack as a citizen of the industry and of the Stack connections with other open source and taking care of that infrastructure piece in 2018, right, which is, we're pretty far from where we started. >> No, great points. To highlight those architectural discussions and really trying to figure out the kind of layering there obviously kind of approach OpenStack as kind of the best tool for managing your infrastructure, getting your infrastructure under control, making it scalable, making it automatable, and then building an application platform on top of that. I may have confused the architectural discussion a little bit this morning with the keynote because what we actually showed in the keynote was on the rack on stage we had an OpenStack cloud running on bare metal and then we would end deploying Kubernetes. Our open shift distribution, we were deploying that also on bare metal alongside OpenStack. Whereas I think often people would assume if you're going to do Kubernetes on OpenStack you're going to do it in virtual machines that are managed by OpenStack. But we were actually showing how you can use OpenStack to manage the bare metal, that you're actually running Kubernetes directly on the bare metal but that there's still integration between Kubernetes and OpenStack when they're side by side. So maybe confused the architectural discussion a little bit more but I think it's really trying to highlight that that assumption of running Kubernetes inside virtual machines isn't necessary. >> You used one of my favorite tools in your keynote. You used Venn diagrams because it is not a thing over here and a thing over here. There's overlap and there's decisions that you'll make, and lots of customers want a platform that will guide them down that path. And they also, oh wait, but I have this custom thing that I need to do. What's the biggest problem we have in IT, is it's not standardized and nothing ever gets thrown away. It's like I want to run my docker image on a z/VM in a mainframe. Oh, Walmart does that, but they also have an OpenStack deployment. So (laughs) you hear all of these discussions out there where it's like wait, is this, you know, (laughs) is this the main thing? Is this modified? What sits on what and where? So it's and, it seems to be, and there's a lot of choices. >> Absolutely, and I think one of the really, you know, one of the really interesting things when you're working in this space is you realize that customers are making really long-term strategic decisions appear. The example I used today was BBVA, and they realized that they needed to kind of keep up with a fast-changing market and they needed an internal platform to allow them to do that. And this is about them making a long-term decision about how they were going to build that platform into the, it's a really kind of long-term and basing their business on that and its future. So that's, it's kind of humbling in terms of having that responsibility of making that work. >> Yeah, Tim, maybe we can get your comments on the ecosystem. We sure have watched three years ago when we were here HP had a big army coming in here as to they doing their distribution. Well, HP's a hardware, HPE, I should say as they are now (laughs) is a hardware partner. Red Hat works across all of the traditional infrastructure companies. This ecosystem changed. Red Hat has a broad ecosystem. What are you seeing out there? What do you get from the partners that they're asking, and how does that play? >> Yeah, I think this really, again, mirrors our approach to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. And so if you look at all the different dimensions of compute, network, and storage, we have ecosystem partners in all of those. So we have the likes for storage, we have NetApp, EMC, IBM, many others. We have backup vendors like Trilio in on that. On the network front we have Cisco, Juniper, many others. We have ecosystem partners of all the major hardware OEMs. We have ecosystem partners in Innovee and Telco, all those spaces. So I think what really is the main driver of Red Hat Enterprise Linux is the ecosystem. It's not really the kernel anymore. It's like how do you run a consistent platform across multiple footprints? And that's what Red Hat is trying to provide because today I see there is a risk of vendor lock, and just like back in the day it was mainframe, right? Try to get everything from the lowest layer to the top layer on one platform. Many of the public cloud vendors are trying to be that one-stop shop, almost analogous to the mainframe. And what we're trying to do just like we did before for his ecosystem is to provide through leveraging the power of open source a platform that people can run, a hybrid platform that they can accelerate their business not only on all the different public clouds but also on-premise as well. >> It's interesting, last week of course big announcement with Red Hat is Microsoft's up on stage. It was like cats and dogs living together. Year before, Amazon you had a big announcement with. With Kubernetes and so many of these different tools, yes, there's that vertical integration but most of the companies understand that they're going to be in a customer environment and other people are. There's no longer, it's oh, IBM of 50 years ago where I'm going to be full in on that chop. >> Right, and I see Kubernetes is also, it's a huge open source project. So this is the difference between upstream and productization. It's what Red Hat does, is we do our maintenance, our support, our hardening, creation of this ecosystem, long life cycle support. The same thing's going to happen in Kubernetes where it's you don't just grab it upstream and run with whatever happens to be in it. And I think that there's a lot of companies that are claiming that just that Kubernetes is ubiquitous. And it's like the community innovation is ubiquitous and we're all in for advancing that. But it's really, if you're going to bet your business you want something that's productized and hardened by a contributor that you can trust. >> Well Tim, I want to connect that back with some of the other stuff that we've talked about on stage today. RHEL, super solid, history of engineering. The lower levels of your Stack need to be solid because you depend (laughs) on them. We talked a little bit about, on stage, about upgrades and things like that and how people are moving forward, the release schedule. I don't know, Mark, how are you approaching both upgrades and automation with Ansible? But other, OpenStack has other components too. How are you approaching that in the OpenStack day two to day 1000 scenario? >> Well absolutely, great question because today we've just announced our upcoming Red Hat OpenStack Platform 13 release, and that's our long life cycle release. So our last long life cycle release was version 10, and we've had a couple of shorter life versions in between. But when it comes to the upstream community what's supported in terms of upgrade is between those individual versions. When we came out with version 13, with this long life version, we have to support seamless upgrades between 10 and 13 in place without disrupting workloads that are running in your environment and make it completely smooth and seamless. And we're doing that with a feature called fast forward upgrades which is completely automated with Ansible. So that's been a big part of our focus with our engineering investment for open-- >> Ansible came up a couple of times on stage both with Zuul and also with the fast forward upgrades and it might have slipped in there a couple more times. It seems like Ansible is a big part of even this community. >> No, we're very happy with Ansible and it's a really powerful tool when it comes to automation. Got an amazing community around us. Kind of real, it's been a kind of an organic growth and we've been really happy with the team since they've joined Red Hat. It's a great foundation for everything we're doing. >> And Ansible's not just a foundation with an OpenStack. It's, for example, we have Ceph integration in with Ansible. We have OpenShift is how we deploy it using Ansible. It's how we're using NREL to what we call System Roles to be able to make it easier to upgrade from one to the other. So by combining a single technology it's making it easier for us to put together an integrated portfolio. >> Great, Tim, when people leave this show what are some of the key messages you want to make sure that they've heard from Red Hat as part of this community? >> I would say that it's Red Hat is bringing an integrated portfolio Stack because it's not just about components. It's really about how can you build, develop, and deploy applications rapidly and what's the most enterprise-ready dynamic environment that enables you to do that, and that's what we think that the power of Red Hat through its credibility in the open source community to bring all of those pieces of the Stack together from top to bottom. >> Stu: All right, and Mark, we'll give you the final word. >> Yeah, I'd actually reach for what we're reinforcing a lot on this summit. We're talking about innovate, empower, and accelerate, and that's really about these businesses that are our customers who are dealing with the challenge of trying to keep up with a rapidly changing market. And they need to innovate more. They need to move faster, need to accelerate. But they also need to empower their own application developers to do that innovation, to really kind of keep pace with the market. >> All right, well Tim Burke, Mark McLoughlin, thanks so much for all of the updates here. For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman. Back with much more coverage here at OpenStack Summit 2018 in Vancouver. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music) (slow tones playing)

[Music] from San Francisco it's the covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat everyone welcome back is the cubes live coverage here in San Francisco Red Hat summit 2018 I'm Sean furry co-host of the cube with my coasts analyst this week John Troyer who's the co-founder of tech reckoning advisory and Community Development firm our next guess is red hash Balakrishnan is the general manager of OpenStack for Red Hat welcome to the cube good to see you ready to be here so OpenStack is very hot obviously with the with the with the trends we've been covering from day one been phenomenal to watch that grow and change but with kubernetes you seeing cloud native to robust communities you got application developers and you got under the hood infrastructure so congratulations and you know what's what's the impact of that what is how is OpenStack impacted by the cloud native trend and what is Red Hat doing they're the best epidermis ation of that is openshift on OpenStack if you had caught the keynotes earlier today there was a demo that we did whereby they were spawning open shifts on bare metal using OpenStack and then you run open shift on power that's what we kind of see as the normed implementation for customers looking to get - I want an open infrastructure on Prem which is OpenStack and then eventually want to get to a multi cloud application platform on top of it that makes up the hybrid cloud right so it's a essential ingredient to the hybrid cloud that customers that are trying to get to and open shifts role in this is what I'm assuming we are asked about openshift ownerships will be multi cloud from a application platform perspective right so OpenStack is all about the infrastructure so as long as you're worrying about info or deployment management lifecycle that's going to be openstax remet once you're thinking about applications themselves the packaging of it the delivery of it and the lifecycle of it then you're in openshift land so how do you bring both these things together in a way that is easier simpler and long-standing is the opportunity and the challenge in front of us so the good news is customers are already taking us there and there's a lot of production workflow is happening on OpenStack but I got to ask the question that someone might ask who hasn't been paying attention in a year or so it was thick hey OpenStack good remember that was what's new with OpenStack what would you say that person if they asked you that question about what's new with OpenStack the answer would be something along the lines of boring is the new normal right we have taken the excitement out of OpenStack you know the conversations are on containers so OpenStack has now become the open infrastructure that customers can bring in with confidence right so that's kind of the boring Linux story but you know what that's what we thrive on right our job as reddit is to make sure that we take away the complexities involved in open source innovation and make it easy for production deployment right so that's what we're doing with OpenStack too and I'm glad that in five years we've been able to get here I definitely I think along with boring gos clarity right last year the cube was that OpenStack summit will be there again in two weeks so with you and I enjoy seeing you again for it the last year there was a lot of you know containers versus there was some confusion like where people got sorted out in their head oh this is the infrastructure layer and then this is the a play I think now people have gotten it sorted out in their head open open shipped on OpenStack very clear message so a meaning of the community in two weeks in any comments on the growth of the open OpenStack community the end users that are there the the depth of experience it seemed like last year was great everywhere for OpenStack on the edge it ended you know set top devices and pull top devices all the way to OpenStack in in private data centers and and for various security or logistical reasons where is OpenStack today yeah I think that he phrased would be workload optimization so OpenStack has now evolved to become optimized for various workloads so NFV was a workload that people were talking about now people are in when customers are in production across the globe you know beat Verizon or the some of the largest telcos that we have in any and a pack as well the fact that you can actually transform the network using OpenStack has become real today now the conversation is going from core of the data center to the edge which is radio networks so the fact that you can have a unified fabric which can transcend from data center all the way to a radio and that can be OpenStack is a you know great testament to the fact that a community has rallied around OpenStack and you know delivering on features that customers are demanding pouring is the new normal of that is boring implies reliable no-drama clean you know working if you had to kind of put a priority in a list of the top things just that it are still being worked on I see the job is never done with infrastructure always evolving about DevOps certainly shows that with programmability what are the key areas still on the table for OpenStack that are that are key discussion points where there's still innovation to be done and built upon I think the first one is it's like going from a car to a self-driving car how can we get that infrastructure to autonomously manage itself we were talking about network earlier even in that context how do you get to a implementation of OpenStack that can self manage itself so there's a huge opportunity to make sure that the tooling gets richer to be able to not just deploy manage but fine-tune the infrastructure itself as we go along so clearly you know you can call it AI machine learning implementation you on OpenStack to make sure that the benefit is occurring to the administrator that's an opportunity area the second thing is the containers and OpenStack that we taught touched upon earlier OpenShift on OpenStack in many ways is going to be the cookie cutter that we're gonna see everywhere there's going to be private cloud if you've got a private cloud it's gotta be an open shift or on OpenStack and if it's not I would like to know why right it's a it becomes a de-facto standard you start to have and they enablement skills training for a few folks as you talk to the IT consumer right the the IT admins out there you know what's the message in terms of upskilling and managing say an OpenStack installation and and what does Red Hat doing to help them come along yeah so those who are comfortable with Braille Linux skills are able to graduate easily over to OpenStack as well so we've been nationally focused on making sure that we are training the loyal Linux installed based customers and with the addition of the fact that now the learnings offerings that we have are not product specific but more at the level of the individual can get a subscription for all the products that reddit has you could get learning access to learning so that does help make sure that people are able to graduate or evolve from being able to manage Linux to manage a cloud and the and face the brave new world of hybrid cloud that's happening in front of our eyes but let's talk about the customer conversations you're having as the general manager of the stack red hat what what are the what's the nature of the conversations are they talking about high availability performance or is it more under the hood about open shift and containers or they range across the board depending upon the use cases whose they do range but the higher or the bit is that applications is where the focuses well closes where the focus is so the infrastructure in many ways needs to get out of the way to make sure that the applications can be moving from the speed of thought to execution right so that's where the customer conversations are going so which is kind of ties back to the boring is the new normal as well so if we can make sure that OpenStack is boring enough that all the energy is focused on developing applications that are needed for the enterprise then I think the job is done self-driving OpenStack it means when applications are just running and that self-healing concepts you were talking about automation is happening exactly that's the opportunity in front of us so you know it's by N's code by code we will get there I think I love the demo this morning which showed that off right bare metal stacks sitting there on stage from different vendors right actually you're the you know OpenStack is the infrastructure layer so it's it's out there with servers from Dell and HP II and others right and then booting up and then the demo with the with Amadeus showing you know OpenStack and public clouds with openshift all on top also showed how it fit into this whole multi cloud stack is it is it challenging to to be the layer with with the hardware hardware heterogeneous enough at this point that OpenStack can handle it are there any issues they're working with different OEMs and if you look at the history of red add that's what we've done right so the rel became rel because of the fact that we were able to abstract multi various innovation that was happening at the so being able to bring that for OpenStack is like we've got you know that's the right to swipe the you know employee card if you will right so I think the game is going back to what you were only talking about the game is evolving to now that you have the infrastructure which abstracts the compute storage networking etc how do you make sure that the capacity that you've created it's applied to where the need is most right for example if you're a telco and if you're enabling Phi G IOT you want to make sure that the capacity is closest to where the customer fool is right so being able to react to customer needs or you know the customers customers needs around where the capacity has to be for infrastructure is the programmability part that we've you know we can enable right so that's a fascinating place to get into I know you are technology users yourself right so clearly you can relate to the fact that if you can make available just enough technology for the right use case then I think we have a winner at hand yeah and taking as you said taking the complexity out of it also means automating away some of those administrative roles and moving to the operational piece of it which developers want to just run their code on it kind of makes things go a little faster and and so ok so I get that and I but I got to ask the question that's more Redhead specific that you could weigh in on this because this is a real legacy question around red hats business model you guys have been very strong with rel the the the record speaks for itself in terms of warranty and and serviceability you guys give like I mean how many years is it now like a zillion years that support for rel OpenStack is boring is Red Hat bringing that level of support now how many years because if I use it I'm gonna need to have support what's the Red Hat current model on support in terms of versioning xand the things that you guys do with customers thank you for bringing that up what have you been consciously doing is to make sure that we have lifecycle that is meeting two different customers segments that we are talking about one is customers who want to be with the latest and the greatest closer to the trunk so every six months there is an openstack released they want to be close enough they want to be consuming it but it's gotta be production ready in their environment the second set of customers are the ones who are saying hey look the infrastructure part needs to stay there cemented well and then every maybe a couple of years I'll take a real look at you know bringing in the new code to light up additional functionality or on storage or network etc so when you look at both the camps then the need is to have a dual life cycle so what we have done is with OpenStack platform 10 which is two years ago we have a up to five year lifecycle release so obvious that platform 10 was extensible up to five years and then every two releases from there 11 and 12 are for just one year alone and then we come back to again a major release which is OSP 13 which will be another five years I know it can be and they get the full Red Hat support that they're used to that's right so there are years that you're able to either stay at 10 or you could be the one who's going from 10 to 11 to 12 to 13 there are some customers were saying staying at 10 and then I won't go over to 13 and how do you do that we'll be a industry first and that's what we have been addressing from an engineering perspective is differentiated - I think that's a good selling point guy that's always a great thing about Red Hat you guys have good support give the customers confidence or not you guys aren't new to the enterprise and these kinds of customers so right - what are you doing here at the show red hat summit 2018 what's on your agenda what some of the hallway conversations you're hearing customer briefings obviously some of the keynote highlights were pretty impressive what going on for you it's a Volvo OpenShift on OpenStack that's where the current and the future is and it's not something that you have to wait for the reality is that when you're thinking about containers you might be starting very small but the reality is that you're going to have a reasonably sized farm that needs to power all the innovation that's going to happen in your organization so given that you need to have an infrastructure management solution thought through and implemented on day one itself so that's what OpenStack does so when you can roll out OpenStack and then on top of it bring in openshift then you not only have to you're not only taking care of today's needs but also as you scale and back to the point we were talking about moving the capacity where is needed you have a elastic infrastructure that can go where the workload is demanding the most attention so here's another question that might come up from when I asked you and you probably got this but I'll just bring it up anyway I'm a customer of OpenStack or someone kicking the tires learning about deploying up a stack I say ritesh what is all this cloud native stuff I see kubernetes out there what does that mean for me visa V OpenStack and all the efforts going on around kubernetes and above and the application pieces of the stack right let's say if you looked at the rear view mirror five years ago when we looked at cloud native as a contract the tendency was that hey look I need to be developing net new applications that's the only scenario where cloud native would be thought thought off now fast forward five years now what has happened is that cloud native and DevOps culture has become the default if you are a developer if you're not sort of in that ploughed native and DevOps then you are working on yesterday's problem in many ways so if digital transformation is urging organizations to drive - as cloud native applications then cloud native applications require an infrastructure that's fungible inelastic and that's how openshift on OpenStack again coming back to the point of that's the future that customers can build on today and moving forward so summarize I would say what I heard you saying periphery if I'm wrong open ship is a nice bridge layer or an up bridge layer but a connection point if you bet on open ship you're gonna have best of both worlds that that's a good summary and you gotta be you know betting on open first of all is the first order a bet that you should be making once you've bet on open then the question is you gotta bet on an infrastructure choice that's OpenStack and you gotta bet on an application platform choice that's open shift once you've got both of these I think then the question is what are you going to do with your spare time okay count all the cash you're making from all the savings but also choice is key you get all this choice and flexibility is a big upside I would imagine British thanks for coming on sharing your insight on the queue appreciate it thanks for letting us know what's going on and best of luck see you in Vancouver thank you for having okay so the cube live coverage here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 John four with John Troy you're more coverage after this short break