>> Live from San Francisco. It's theCUBE. Covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's exclusive two days of coverage for Cisco Systems' inaugural event called DevNet Create extension. DevNet their classic developer program, for the Cisco install base of network routers. Now going to the cloud, native, going to the developer where dev-ops and the enterprise are connecting. I'm John Furrier, my cohost Peter Burris. Next is Dan Kohn, who is the Executive Director of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Formerly known as Kubecon. Which is the event, Kubecon.io. Dan, great to see you. Executive Director, how's business, is going good? >> Fantastic! (John laughs) Yeah, six months ago we chatted at our last event in Seattle. And it's just amazing to see the progress since then. Projects members. >> It's been a whirlwind. Even I can't keep track. You guys are announcing all these new projects. What's the current count of projects that you guys have under the Cloud Native Compute Foundation? >> So we're up to 10. I should definitely start with the fact that Kubernetes is the anchor 10 in our original project. In a lot of ways, foundation was setup around that. And that project is just continuing to do incredibly well. Where it's one of the highest velocity projects in the history of open source. In terms of number of authors, number of commits, poll requests, issues. But now we have a constellation of other projects that are in support of that one. It can be used in a lot of different ways. >> John: Yeah. >> That we've been adding in. >> We had Craig McLuckie on earlier. Now he's with Heptio. Again, when he was doing that work, at Google, back in the days with what's his name from Microsoft now. >> Peter: Brendan Burns. >> Brendan Burns, yeah. >> Now it's an interesting question, where you say, oh, wait a minute, the three sort of key people behind Kubernetes, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, who's his co-founder at Heptio, then Brendan Burns, they all left Google. Is this a bad sign for the project and the technology? >> John: No, I don't think so. >> And we would say it's a spectacularly good sign. Now, if they had left and said, ah you know, containers, I'm going to do virtual machines. But in fact they said, there's such an enormous market for this. And to have Microsoft and Azure step in and say, we really want to invest in this space and we want to bring on one of the co-founders, Brendan. And for the other two co-founders, say, hey Google is making a huge investment. But we also think there's an opportunity for independent venture funded startup. >> Craig is completely passionate about this because there is an interoperability ethos that's always been around the open web. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> And certainly open source has the same ethos. Cloud Native brings an interesting thing, and it's clear now to people that there's not going to be one cloud winning them all. >> It's a multi-could world. >> Dan: Right. >> How is the Cloud Native Foundation floating in the open source world? Is it gravitating towards more infrastructure, more edge, software edge? Are you guys kind of in the middle? Are you guys the glue layer? How do you view that? >> Sure. So one way of looking at what we're doing is, helping to build a stack of software. That allows you to run your applications either on bare metal in your own data center or on any of the public clouds. Or hybrid solution where you're mixing back and forth. But the key idea is that all the core parts of that are open source. They're supported by multiple different vendors. And what that means is, you get to avoid lock-it. So today, Amazon web services has some of the most extraordinary engineering. They have all these great services that make it very easy to go onboard. But if you build your whole architecture around that, then you're stuck with AWS forever. And when time goes up, time to renegotiate your contract in a year or two, you're back again and don't have a lot of leverage. Where we think AWS is fantastic platform to run Kubernetes, to run our other projects on top of. But we don't think you want to lock-in to those services to such a degree. >> Okay, when I'm on, first of all, pretend I'm Amazon, I'm a competitive strategist, lock-in, I got to get you locked-in. I'm just going to run Kubernetes on Amazon. Why don't I just do that? >> We think that's a great solution. >> John: You do? >> Heptio and lots other folks make it very easy to run Kubernetes on Amazon. But we also think you should at least look at Kubernetes on Bluemix, on Google, on Azure. And know that in the future when you're negotiation comes up, even if you never leave, you at least threaten to leave. That you're not locked into that one vendor forever. >> So if you think about how the cloud industry structure is starting to layout, you knew we were going to have IAAS. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> SAS has been around for quite sometime. >> Dan: Right. >> The big question is what happens with that platform as a service. >> The developer world. >> Dan: Yeah. Some people think it's going to end up in the IAS element. >> Dan: Umhmm. Some people end up in the SAS. If it ends up in the IAS, you got the lock-in. Do you see a world going forward where developers have their own place, where they go and build and create software independent of either target but then add it to the various platforms. Is that a direction that you think this is all going to end up in? >> I do. Our view is that Heroku, which really invented this platform as a service concept or popularized it. You do, get push Heroku and magically your application's up. And then Cloud Foundry which came along and created a open source version of that. Those were two building blocks. But the Cloud Native essentially taking that scenario and saying, hey, that continuous integration, continuous deployment pipeline, that ability to deploy your software dozens of times per day, that's an absolute table ante for being a modern company. Not just a software company but arguably every company today needs to be doing software development like that. And then Cloud Native is a whole set of infrastructure around that to allow you to, not just have that environment in development but also to push it into production. >> So compare and contrast, based on your vision >> Dan: Umhmm. >> of how things are going to play out. A developer spends her time today doing this, and in three years, she's going to spend her time doing that. Kind of give us a sense of how >> Dan: Sure. >> you think it's going to play out. >> The simplest way to say it is that, Docker came along a few years ago, and was incredibly transformative technology for software development. It solved this really basic problem that, you hire a new employee and does it take her an entire day or entire week to get her environment together. Or can she just copy over the document container and be ready to go. And so I would argue it had the fastest uptake of any developer technology in history. But now when you have all those pieces running, okay, that's great in development, how do you get it in production? And my goal is that in a few years, hopefully much sooner, that those developers that are getting the container, they're getting the different pieces of microservices working. And then it's this tiny little YAML file that just says, here's the requirements for my application, here's what kind of redundancy it needs, what is backend databases, other sorts of things. And they're deploying it up. For most developers they can get out of that business of dev-ops. Of having to worry about all those issues. Your dev-ops team can be so much more efficient cuz Kubernetes and the related platform really enables that. >> I got to ask you, I just Tweeted cuz I had, make sure I captured it. I'm blown away by your success on the sponsorship participation. And usually it's a sign of opportunity. Because there's money making to be made, having the big vendors in there. But the growth of Kubernetes as you mentioned, all the success, we're well aware of that. But you got a lot going on. You're like got the tiger by the tail, your hair's blown back, you're running as hard as you can. Why are you guys successful? What is your gut? As executive director, you got to have the 20 mile stare but you also implement the here and now. >> Dan: Sure. >> How are you rationalizing the success? >> The most important point is, there's not some sort of magic formula, that CNCF has done or the Linux Foundation. And we're just so much better promoting or marketing it. At the end of the day, it really comes down to the developers behind Kubernetes. They've built a tool that tons and tons of people want to use. And that leverages 15 years of work that Google has done on containerization. Work that IBM and Docker and all of our other member companies, RedHat, have put together. And now, I think tiger by the tail is the right analogy. That we just happen to be, luckily, do have the technology and the constellation technology that a lot of folks want to do. The biggest thing we're trying to deal with is, some of the challenges around scaling. There's over 17 hundred authors. Individual developers contributed to Kubernetes in the last 12 months. Trying to figure out how can we get good reviews of all their codes, better documentation. >> There is a secret formula if you look at it. In away, relevance is one of them. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Being relevant and being an awesome technology. But what I want get your thoughts in is, I looked at Kubernetes right out of the gate and said, hmm, will this be a MapReduced moment for Google. >> Dan: Yeah. >> And interesting enough, they didn't pull the same move. They didn't just let Cloud Air, walk away with or someone. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> They made sure that if they preserved it. Google kind of let MapReduced >> Dan: Yeah, I think-- >> on the side of the road. >> Dan: No, no, I think this-- >> Cloud Air ran with it. >> Google had something that they replaced it with. I mean the -- >> SPAN is pretty damn good. >> And that's an interesting thing because in a world of strategy, across technology, and this is related to this, is that it used to be, you define a process, and then let's call it the end level process, and then you would go off and you make it obsolete because you had something that was more efficient, more effective. And then you license the old technology. And that way, the industry built capacity around the old technology and you had the new, more efficient technology that drove your business forward. And I think that, I'm not saying that's exactly, I'm not saying that Google did that, that's the tremendous >> Google knew. >> effect it will have. >> John: I have sources that tell me that. I investigated this story three years ago or maybe four, maybe three years ago. Google had conversations going up to the Eric Schmidt level, and Larry Page level, do we keep Kubernetes, do we open source it? And it went all the way to the top. And they almost wanted, they were afraid of MapReduced. Because MapReduced was a lost opportunity. Now they made it up but-- >> Now I would argue that there's a slightly subtler decision they had to make, where they have this internal system board, that is just tons of engineering and analysis and improvement has gone into it. They wrote Kubernetes as essentially next generation version of that. I think they kind of had four paths. Craig McLuckie was one of the key people behind that. Where they could have made it a proprietary service that if you're a customer of Google cloud, you get access to it. That's essentially what Amazon and Elastic Container Services today. Or they could have said, hey, we're going to open source it but we're still keep control of it. Essentially that's the path they went with the Go language. Where lots of people use it, lots of people contribute to it, but it's Google who decides at the end of the day, which direction it goes. Or they could have gone and created a Kubernetes Foundation. And if they'd gone to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to create a Kubernetes Foundation, they absolutely could have and that would have been a home for it. But when you look at all the complementary technologies that have come in, they would never have gone into a Kubernetes Foundation. So instead, they really chose the most open path of saying, no we want to have a Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Have Kubernetes be the anchor tenant for it. But then have a place that companies like Mesophere with Mesos and Docker with Docker Swarm and other partners can come in and agree on something. So today, we're really pleased to announce the container network interface, just got accepted as our 10th project. And that's used by those and also by Cloud Foundry. And then they can disagree on others, about the orchestration- >> So it's a liberating move, really, if you think about it. Because at the time this happened, there was a lot of land grab talk going on. >> Dan: Umhmm. >> Until Amazon was winning big the hockey stick was going up. >> Dan: Right. You saw the numbers, and financial performance. But there was a fear of lock-in. To your point. >> Dan: Right, exactly. >> Then Kubernetes provides a nice layer. And you guys as a group, are looking holistically and saying, choice and multi-cloud. Is that the vision? >> Definitely. But, I mean you can see, strategically why Google decided to do it. Because if you pick an open source platform, and say, hey, this is the best of breed approach. Now, you're actually willing to evaluate the cloud on what the prices are, the supplementary services, et cetera. Where before that, you might have just said, ah, AWS is the safe service, I'm going just go with that. >> But Kubernetes is an invasive technology. And I don't mean that in a bad way. (Dan laughs) >> When you decide to move with Kubernetes, you are foreclosing other options at your disposal. And so, I think what you're saying is that, Google wanted to ensure that it remained a consistent coherent thing. While at the same time, making it obvious to all those around them that also wanted to invest in it, that their investments were going to be safe and sound going forward. >> I think that's fair but on the other hand, I do want to say that very few companies have moved their entire business and all of their IT over to Kubernetes. >> Peter: Oh, I'm not saying that they would. >> We do recommend that they start with a stable service. >> Peter: But Meso and some of those other companies are now investing in Kubernetes as a platform. Or making a bet on Kubernetes, want to make sure that their bets are as good as their company is. >> Sure. But there are other orchestration plateforms still. So Kubernetes has plenty of competition. And our biggest competition of course is Enertia. Of folks not changing into anything. >> I got to ask you a question. So Leonard, our producer is just telling me, Kubernetes is boring per Craig McLuckie. So Craig said earlier in theCUBE today, Kubernetes needs to be boring. He said his biggest problem with Kubernetes is it's too exciting right now. >> Dan: That's great. Now what he means by that is, he's kind of making a play on words but his point is, it should be obstracted away. >> Dan: Yeah. In terms of Kubernetes. But that's a problem you have. It's too exciting. >> Dan: Umhmm. What's your reaction to his comment that Kubernetes needs to be boring. >> He and I did a little Google trends comparison of Kubernetes and TensorFlow, which is another open source project out of Google. TensorFlow is something like three or four acts. And artificial intelligence is just so much more interesting and exciting. And yeah, I certainly would love to see a situation. We have this metaphor for Linux, with the Linux Foundation. That we describe it as plumbing. Where it's so intrinsic to almost every piece of technology in existence. And like plumbing, you'll get very upset when if it stops working. And you'll know it and you'll complain. But there's a huge piece of what we're trying to do which is the infrastructure to make things work. >> Here's an idea. Marketing idea. Just call it AI for containers. >> Dan: That's good. >> It'll be the hottest thing on the planet. >> Dan, great to-- >> Peter: Probably be more be more exciting. >> Dan, great to see you. Congratulations on your success. >> Yeah. So I do want to just make a quick mention December sixth through eighth is CloudNativeCon and KubeCon. It's our biggest annual conference. We're looking to actually triple in size from Seattle to three thousand people or more. We have every expert coming in. Michelle Noorali and Kelsey Hightower are the co-chairs and are going to be speaking there. We would love to see a lot of you guys. >> John: In Austin. >> In Austin. >> We hope you'll be there. >> TheCUBE will be there. >> We'll definitely be there. >> Dan: As well to ah, >> We've been to the inaugural >> Dan: Exactly. >> show for KubeCon and Cloud Native conference. We'll defintely be there. December sixth through the eighth, in December, in Austin. Great time of the year to be in Texas. Congratulations on all your success. And as Kubernetes and nine other projects continue to get traction. Still exciting times. And as they say, we live in interesting times. (Dan laughs) This is theCUBE with more interesting, exciting, not boring stuff coming back from the inaugural event here at Cisco DevNet Create. I'm John Ferrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us.

[Announcer] Live from Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. Covering NAB 2017. Brought to you by HGST. >> Welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at NAB 2017 with a hundred thousand of our closes friends but we actually do have one of my friends here. Who I can't believe we haven't had on theCUBE since 2013 ServiceNow Knowledge. >> That's right. That's right. >> Just down the road at the Cosmopolitan. Brian Lillie, he is now the Chief Customer Officer and EVP of Technology Services from Equinix. >> Brian, it's always great to see you. >> Jeff, it's always a good thing to be on theCUBE. And I love NAB. Love it! >> What do you think, you've been coming here for awhile. What's kind of your take away, what's the vibe? >> Well, so the vibe, it feels as innovative and as exciting as ever. And I really think that, people are seeing, are starting to hit a tipping point where they're seeing what's possible. What's possible with the cloud, possible with increased collaboration. When I first started coming here a few years ago, saw very few of these kinds of projects. Now, we're seeing tons of innovative approaches to using the cloud. Using our facilities, using really some of our network providers that are really innovating around this vertical. >> Yeah, it's pretty interesting Brian because this is our first time for theCUBE being here. And what's surprising me is how many of the macro trends that we see time and time again at all the other shows about increasing capacity, flexibility, democratization of data, democratization of assets. All these kinds of typical IT themes that are being executed here within the media entertainment industry both on the creative side and as well as the production side. >> That's right. That's very well said. I think this industry, really more than many, is very, very collaborative. You know, from everything from acquisition to pre-production, production, post production, delivery. It feels like a community that wants to share, wants to learn, sees that they don't necessarily own all the best ideas. And that we're seeing some young innovative startups from all over the world. Everywhere from Europe to Asia coming up with ideas that the big houses, big players are starting to see as viable. And I do think, I think, when you talk about it being maybe some of these IT trends, I think some of the secular trends. The fact that consumers want their content anytime, anywhere, on any device. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> Really if you work from the customers backwards, everybody else has to adjust to that. And we're parents. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> We see what our kids wants. And it's really driving I think the whole industry. >> And good stuff for you. You guys at Equinix made a big bet on cloud long time ago. And the fact of the matter is, we're surrounded by all these crazy hardware, both in the production side, the data center side. No one is buying this. You don't just take this stuff home anymore and plug it in. It's just too big and too expensive. As you said, I think was interesting about the media business, is everybody comes together around a project. When the project's over, they go away. How many people has Quentin Tarantino employed directly, probably not that many. But the guy kicks out a lot of big budget movies. >> That's right. I think when you think about the creation of a production, like a QT movie, wherever that set is, it's ephemeral. You go, you setup and it's big data needs, it's high bandwidth, low latency, you've got to get the data. In some cases centrally, but in some cases you're processing at the edge. But it's very cloud-like. We're seeing a lot of this unfold. We're seeing these players not only in the centers where it makes sense to consolidate, but we're actually seeing some of this kit show up in our data centers in a distributed mode, where they say some information, some equipment, we want to keep behind our firewalls on our premise, which could be an Equinix cage or their own. But then I want to absolutely connect to multiple clouds. I want to use the tools in Asure, the tools in Amazon, the tools in Google and others to further enhance our abilities. And so it's truly this hybrid, best of breed, I got a lot of tools in my tool kit, some cloud, some on premise. And there has never been a better time to be in this industry. >> Right. >> You see a lot of industries, you got a lot of customers, how do you see it kind of compare, are financial services, the entertainment, et cetera, are they all kind of progressing pretty much down the same path, at the same rate or do you see some significant laggers or significant people ahead of the curve? >> Well, I would say that financial services is way ahead, to be frank. Financial services has been doing this for a long time. Like when we built Equinix, it was really starting with the networks at the core. And the first vertical to take advantage of that was the financial services, where they said, hey, I want low latency routes between New York and London. Low latency routes between Chicago and New York. And so they've been doing that and then building communities of interest where they could reach all the folks in their digital supply chain. On the financial services side, guys like Bloomberg and Reuters, they said, I can reach all my customers in one place. And I can direct connect to them. So they built early. The content guys did see it right after that. Guys like Yahoo, and if you remember Myspace. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> So it's wonderful to see Facebook video here. I mean, here's now Facebook, real-time video, live at NAB. And with a big presence. So I think content digital media has been a little bit slower to move. But it's one of these ramps. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And they, over the last two years, I think they have been the fastest excelerating vertical using the cloud and interconnection to build their brand, to build their business. >> Right. It's interesting, because some of our other guests were talking about the theme I guess last year, here was a lot of VR. >> Brian: Yes. >> It's all about the VR theme. But now, we're hearing about machine learning, and metadata and a lot more kind of tradition themes, it's not necessarily just about the VR and the 360. >> Brian: Yup, yup. >> To add more value to these assets, to be able to distribute them better, to have the metadata, to create an experience for that individual person, >> Yup. >> even within the context of a bigger asset, have these small ones, they're pretty interesting trend. >> Yeah, it's spot on. I think VR, virtual reality and augmented reality, >> Jeff: Yeah, I think so. >> is the future. I mean it's the future. I think what maybe what people are realizing is, it's at it's really early days. But data we have, and this whole notion of data science and analytics that you can put around the customer experience in real-time, in situ. >> Right. >> They're like, we can do that now. >> Where virtual reality, the massive bandwidth, the storage, the compute, the compute. Because it's no longer that you're watching the movie in a third person, you are the movie. You are the experience, you're in it. And that's just going to require just massive compute, that in my opinion, only the cloud can do. [Jeff] Right, right. >> So I think it's a little bit further off, But I think VR and AR is the wave, it's the future. >> And certainly in the AR, I think is really cool because there's so much potential there. So from a data center perspective, you guys are sitting right at the heart of this thing. And you're taking advantage of these tremendous Moore's law impacts on not only compute and store but networking, it's got to be phenomenal to see the increase demand. I always think of the old Microsoft Intel, you know back in the day, >> Brian: Right, right. you get a better microprocessor, well, Microsoft's OS heats up, another 80% of that one back and forth. But now we're really hitting huge, huge efficiencies in these core components that are enabling ridiculous scale that you could never even imagine before. >> I think the Intel Microsoft example or analogy is a really, really interesting one because in fact, when you look at companies like Mesophere and Google's Kubernetes and these others, that are, they're calling themselves the data center operating system which is operating containers with the move to microservices, all this technology that's coming, that's making compute more ubiquitous, where you can run workloads anywhere. The fact that we sit, we feel privileged cuz we sit in the middle, of not only all the networks, but of the clouds, the multi-clouds. >> Right, right. >> And if you're a, whether you're a producer or you're in production, you're in delivery, you're an over-the-top guy, where you want to be is where you can connect very directly with little latency and high security and high reliability, to the clouds you need, to the networks you need, to the partners you need. I think that's just a powerful thing. Now the operating system is how do we make that easy, how do we create the easy button. >> Right, right. >> For these folks to access these resources. And what' the value we provide as that neutral, in the middle provider that brings people together. You know, I was at an event last night, and DPP, Mark from DPP was there. We were talking about the question of who owns this new business model. He said he saw a panel on Sunday, because it's transforming in front of us. [Jeff] Right, right. >> And it's an excellent question. I don't know who owns it, but I know we see it. And we're seeing people talk about it. I think the community owns it. They own what this new business model looks like and we're just listening to our customers and letting them lead us. >> Jeff: Right. >> To the place we need to go. >> Interesting. So we're running a little low on time. Just want to get kind of what are your priorities for 2017. >> Well, priorities in this area is really to make cloud ubiquitous globally. It's to push that out to the edge, make that available in as many markets, to as many customers as we can. With our big partners, with Google and Amazon and Microsoft and Oracle and all the rest. That's a big priority. Second is this notion of the easy button. How can we add value, how can we take friction out of the system to make collaboration and communication between this industry that much easier, that much faster. Those are our two big ones in particular here. And I'm delighted to see this vertical just taking off with the cloud. >> Yeah. Pretty exciting times. >> Brian: It's a great time. >> Alright, I got to embarrass you before I let you go Brian. Never have I met an executive that takes such pride in in losing good employees to better jobs. I just want to compliment you on that. (Brian laughs) I know you take pride in CIOs all over the industry that were once your charges. So I want to give you a shout-out for that. >> Okay. Alright, he's Brian Lillie, keep working for him. Don't take the other CIO jobs just yet, but if you do, he'll be happy to mentor you. >> Brian: I will help you get there. >> Alright, thanks for stopping by. He's Brian Lillie, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE from NAB 2017. We'll be right back after this short break. >> Brian: Thanks Jeff. >> Good to see you buddy. (techno music)