(soft electronic music) >> Well, it's good to have you here as we continue our series of CUBE Conversations in the AWS Startup Showcase. Today, our focus is on HackerOne and the CEO of HackerOne, Mårten Mickos joins us. Mårten, thanks for being with us, we appreciate the time. Good to see you here, on theCUBE, today. >> Thanks for inviting me, John. >> Let's talk about HackerOne, the global, digital security leader. You are taking care of everybody's worst digital nightmares these days and so congratulations on that front, but I know you've got your hands full. Let's go back for those who are watching that don't know a lot about your history and just tell us about the origination, about how you gathered this stable of hackers, if you will, for good, ethical hacking, we might call that, and how that began and where that path has led you. >> Yes, thank you, John. You mentioned it already, you said the worst nightmare. The worst nightmare we all now have is that we get hacked. We all have to worry as consumers, companies, governments that criminals will break into our system. And then when you start thinking rational think, okay, if the worst nightmare is a cyber crime and getting breached, what is then a medication potent enough to rise to that same level? What can stop your software vulnerabilities from being exploited by criminals? And the world has built a lot of testing software, procedures, scanners, all kinds of things to get there, but none have risen to the level of true criminal activity. But then this movement of ethical hacking has people with the same skill and same passion, and same ability to come from the outside and break in except one difference, they have good intent. So we have a collection, a community of all the ethical hackers in the world, over a million of them, who are all ready to go in and in a way, think the bad and do the good. So they approach your system as if they were attacking you and when they find a hole, they tell you and you can fix it. And it turns out that there's no other way of finding all the ways in which a bad guy could break in. You could do all the other things and you should do all the testing and scanning and whatnot, but it won't rise to that same level, it won't find all the vulnerabilities, it won't think as expansively as a criminal will think. But the ethical hackers do and they are unstoppable. And there are many more ethical hackers than are bad hackers in the world. We have 1.2 million in our community, that's more than there are black hats or criminal hackers in the whole world. >> Yeah, that's an incredible number. I mean, 1.2 million-- >> And growing. >> Ethical hackers. >> And growing. >> How did you go about building that community and vetting that community, right? Because there has to be some kind of credential that you bring to the table, some kind of expertise. So how do you know that everybody in that 1.2 million, which again, just a phenomenal number is of the same cloth, if you will, of good intent and willing to help? >> They would never sign up if they didn't have good intent because we know about them, we can see where they came from. So if you're a criminal, you would never voluntarily give away such information about yourself. So we know their intent. They're, of course, varying in terms of skill and drive and passion and abilities, so we have a ranking system where we can learn about their skills and we test them, so we can, out of that giant community, find the ones who are truly outstanding. Because like in any endeavor in life, some are just natural talent, some work hard to become the top talent, and most of us are just regular, mediocre players in whatever sports we are in, like, like I am. But we have, we managed to find the most talented hackers in the whole world and through sort of a social competition we cause them to learn more, get better, and just better and better. And, and here's the other dimension. So the first dimension is that we have to have a cure that is as strong, as potent as the risk so we have to find vulnerabilities at the same level as criminals will find. Well our hackers will do that. The second thing is it's a moving target. Whatever you learned in cybersecurity yesterday may already be outdated. Whatever technology you are, you are catching up with may already be different than it was yesterday. But thanks to our giant community, we have this sort of evolution inside of the community where new talent is always coming in with new skill and replacing the old ones. So as a hacker, of course, you compete with all your other friendly hackers to be the best, but one day you'll get beaten by a new guy, a new person, a new hacker who has figured out the new technology. And that's how we stay current. Like we, there's no risk of the knowledge being outdated or stagnated because the people revolve in this community and it's always the freshest, most accurate, current talent that's being deployed in our programs. >> Yeah, we've had a lot of conversations with cybersecurity experts over the years here, on theCUBE and generally there's been a theme of, I wouldn't say resignation, that's too strong. I'd say almost acceptance that there are going to be challenges and sometimes bad guys win. Sometimes vulnerabilities are, do yield results, you know, will ill intent. So how do you match the skill level on your side with the skill level and the motivation of the criminal actors on the other side and keep up with that? Because there's great financial motivation on that, on the bad side, you know, in order to, ransomware, you know, a great example of that. But how do you continue to fortify the hackers on your side to match that motivation that is so deeply embedded on the ill side? >> You brought up many good points, so let me start from the backend of them. So first of all, when we say that it's very lucrative to do cyber crime, I don't think it is lucrative for the actual doers. Like in ransomware, a lot of monies is changing hands, but I think it ends up in, ends up in very few hands. So a lot of the technical cyber criminals who are conducting it are probably not making much money. In opposition of this, in our ethical hacking community, we already have 14 hackers who have earned more than a million dollars by working on our programs. That is a lot of money. It's a lot of money even for criminals. If you are enlisted by a nefarious government or other nefarious organization to work for them, they don't necessarily pay you well, but working as a white hat, you can earn much, much more. So I do think the economics is rigged the right way, especially as human beings inherently want to do good. And they are ready to do good even if their pay is much lower. Now, the pay isn't lower, but even if it were, the propensity to do good, it overpowers the likelihood of somebody becoming a criminal. So, so as we, as long as we work together and pool our defenses, we'll be much stronger than any criminals. >> So, so let, if you would, let's turn the page then to you've established the talent pool, very deep, great bench. You've got a lot of people doing really good work. So let's talk about the work they are doing in terms of vulnerabilities that they're sighting, whether it's app security, cloud security, whatever the case may be. What, generally, what are you finding? What are you seeing, like where are the mistakes being made generally in your client base? What kinds of things are you pinpointing to them that you're finding through your work that they can shore up and build those defenses a little stronger? >> Broadly speaking, when you look at the industry today, every organization is undergoing digital transformation, and some do it from a primitive standpoint, some are already running on software. But there's a digital transformation going on, most organizations are moving workloads to the cloud, to a public cloud. When that happens, the nature of your application workload changes, the nature of the threat changes, and the possibilities for mistakes will be different. When you deploy workloads on a public cloud, you may have configuration issues, you may leave secrets in public repositories, there are new threats that come to you. But at the same time, it's a more uniform space because everybody's running on the same cloud and the cloud, itself, is secure. So we have devised specific services for those who run on cloud, where we go in and say, we know AWS, we know Google Cloud, we know Microsoft Azure. We will find the specific, typical vulnerabilities that you have there and we'll tell you about them so you can fix them. And then you get a much stronger cyber defense because the, the world of vulnerabilities is known to us, we've trained our hackers in identifying them. When we find them with one company, we learn, and we can look for the same in some other company. So the pace of learning is much faster in our system and that's how we can bring companies to a higher level of security when they're on the public cloud than they were before. So actually, like when you said many are resigned in front of the situation, the ship is already turning. It's important to look the threats in the eye and be unafraid of it, and just meet it, but we don't have to be resigned anymore. We have the powers in the cloud vendors, in the ethical hacking community, in software automation to now build proper systems that are broadly speaking, very secure. >> So, so how do you? >> Yes. >> How, how do we, when you look at the ransomware incidents that continue to occur, and yet I, and, and that, you know, it frightens a lot of people in the corporate world, municipal, public sector and private citizens even, right? But, but you sound, if I hearing you right, a little more optimistic, that we're getting to be a little more adept at security, if you will, and of sighting vulnerabilities and finding these loopholes and whatever. So you're not as pessimistic as, as some might be. You're thinking that perhaps we are starting to turn the corner a little bit and maybe some of these things that have been big threats are being somewhat more mitigated now? >> Well, I believe that whether you think you can fight cyber crime or not, you are correct, meaning you must have a belief of the power that you have with your other defenders. And today, we can create a defense that's strong enough. Nobody's 100% safe, ever. You can take any vaccinations you like, you may still get the, the virus. So like, as a metaphor, it's the same with software. You can never get 100% safety, but you can get much better than you were before. And you do it step by step with boring, small steps. It's not, there's no silver bullet. There's nothing that in one change will make you secure. But if you, every day fix one little thing, soon, you are more secure than your competitors and soon you are among the most secure in the industry. >> So, you know, Mårten, it is almost, I think about the old saying, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." This is like, if you can't beat them, have them join you. Right? >> No, it is if you can't beat them, keep beating them, keep beating at them. Like, criminal activity is very bad. The nefarious actors that are out there, there's nothing good with them. And whether they are operating voluntarily or mandated by somebody who has power over them, it's really, really bad. But, but in terms of numbers of people, they are already in a minority. They have vast resources, they have as technical resources and skills, but we have more people lined up on the defense and pooled defense will always overpower an asymmetric threat. >> Well, it's a great story what HackerOne has done in just a very short period of time over the past seven, eight years. It's important work, it's vital work and you're doing it very well. And so thanks for being with us here, on theCUBE and we wish you all the best down the road, too. >> We want the companies to do well, that's when we do well and they are very secure. So thank you very much, John. This was a wonderful conversation. >> I appreciate the time. Mårten Mickos joining us, the CEO of HackerOne. You've been watching a CUBE Conversation part of the AWS Startup Showcase. (soft electronic music)

>> Woman's Voice: From the CUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back already. Jeff Rick here, with theCUBE. We're having Palo Alto studios, during these kind of crazy times and really taking a moment with the time that we have to reach out to some of the leaders in our community, to give us some insight, to give us some advice, to share their knowledge about some of the things that are going on and some of the specific challenges that really the coronavirus and the COVID 19 situation are causing for all of us. So, we're really excited to have a CUBE alumni, haven't talked to him for a couple of years. Joining us from his house, he's Marten Mickos, the CEO of Hacker One. Marten, great to see you. >> Good to see you, Jeff. Good to be back. Thank you. >> So first off, just a quick check in. How are you doing? How things going at Hacker One? How's the team doing? How are you guys kind of getting through this time of difficulty? >> Well, we are fortunate in our company that we have a business that may be doing even better in these times, because we do security don't need to go into the office and we do it in a distributed way. And so, all of that is wonderful for the company. We do have our first positive case of COVID 19 in the company. He is now fully recovered after a few weeks. He's back at work. So, it means it came pretty close to us and we have others who might be in the danger zone. But overall, we are doing very well and paying a lot of attention on health and staying safe and working from home and making sure we don't take risk because these are serious things that we shouldn't play with. >> Yes. Well, I'm glad to hear that, that person is recovering. And I think April is the month of six degrees of separation where all of us are going to know someone or someone who knows someone who's got this thing, is it? The curves, unfortunately, are still going up in the United States. So, I don't think that's going to change. But, on a lighter note, one of the reasons I wanted to reach out to you is you've got a long history of working with distributed companies. This COVID thing is kind of a forcing function around work from home and it never fails to amaze me how many people are on their first Zoom, and they don't even know what WebEx is, and they've never heard of Skype. And I think we get spoiled in the tech world. We use these tools all the time. But this is a forcing function. It's at the grade schools, the middle schools, the high schools, besides just regular companies. So, when you were running MySQL, back in the day, you had a distributed company, not only across buildings, but across oceans and continents. So, I wonder if you can share kind of, did that start that way? Did you move into that way? Kind of what are some of the early days as you move from everybody in the office to more of a distributed network? >> Yeah, it did start that way at MySQL back in Scandinavia. And I joined. There were 12 people, everybody working from home. The CTO lived just half an hour away from me, but we never saw each other. I worked from home, he worked from home. And I remember when I as the new CEO said that, hey, we will need an office. We need a headquarters where we can have meetings and archives or contracts and stuff. And he said, no office, over my dead body. It will kill the company culture. That was the view >> Why! >> Of the founder. >> That is so progressive. Where did that view come from, Cause that is certainly was not the kind of standard thinking. >> It was weird. It was back in, that was the year 2000, and they had developed a way of working with open source contributors all over the world, over email and IRC back then, which is a predecessor to slack you could say. And they just developed that method of working together and making sure everything is digital, everything is written down. You are honest and forthright in writing as well. So it worked beautifully and they didn't like offices. We ended up having offices and we had many people working from the office but there was nowhere, at no time was it more than 30% of our headcount of about 500 people who work from an office. 70% work from home in 32 different countries across 16 time zones. >> Wow, that's very, very distributed. So, in getting ready for this, I saw some other interviews that you've done and some other conversations on the topic. And one of the things that you brought up that I think is really topical is that this is really more of a mental challenge than really a physical challenge. The tools are there, we have internet, we're very fortunate that way. Didn't have these things in 2000, like we do today. But you talked about the mental challenge, both from a leadership perspective, as well as maybe from the employee perspective. I wonder if you can dig into that a little deeper as you kind of look at your peers that are treading into unchartered waters, if you will. >> Well, I think it's a transition where you become one with the media, like with your laptop or whatever you're looking at and you sort of you invest yourself in what you have in front of you and you give off all of yourself into it. Just like, if somebody is taking a portrait of you with a camera, you have to sort of love the camera and show yourself to the camera for the portrait to be really, really good. Like that's what great photographers do. They get you to open up, even though it's a machine and not another human being. And we have to develop this skill digitally to sit in front of a laptop or a phone or something, and be our whole genuine selves, showing all dimensions and aspects of our personality. Because we don't realize it but when you go to an office, people are paying attention to how you walk, where you stop, what you look like, whether you look angry or happy, whether you look tired or not, when you go to the restroom, when you don't, like who knows all these things that people pay attention to that give away how you feel and how you are. And then somebody may come and say, Hey, Jeff seems to be in a bad mood today or Jeff seems to be in a good mood today. And those are vital functions of a group that works together. So, you must allow the digital world to have the same. You have to bring that part of yourself into the digital reality and sort of open up. And people make the mistake that they just bring their professional selves. They just say, okay, what's the task? What's the work? Let's agree on something, let's listen to everybody. And they don't reserve room for the social side and showing who you are. Because people won't ultimately trust you until they know that you are a human being and you have weaknesses and vulnerabilities and you can be silly and sometimes you look good, and sometimes you don't look good, and sometimes you are to your advantage, and sometimes you aren't. And until you have covered the whole range of your own expressions, you're not believable. >> Yeah. Another topic that came up is measurement, right? In KPIs, and how do you measure people's performance? It wasn't that long ago that Ginni Rometty at IBM came out and said, we don't want remote workers anymore. We want everybody to come check into the office. Well, that's changed a little bit. But, you mentioned that, we're so used to measuring things the way that we've always measured in the past. Are they there at eight? Do they stay till five or six? Do they look busy, as opposed to really focusing on outputs? And you talked about really shifting your mindset with a distributed workforce to make sure you're focusing on the right outcomes, not necessarily focusing on the things that maybe, as you said, as much as subconsciously, you're paying attention to as much as anything. >> It's so easy to fake it in an office. >> I love that. >> You go in there, you look busy and people think you're amazing. But when you work from home, the only thing you have to show for is your work results. So, it becomes much more objective. And of course, you have to create metrics that can be tracked in a way that others can understand what you're doing. But it actually makes it more straightforward because you can't fake it. >> Right. >> The only thing you can be measured by is what you're actually producing. >> It's got to be interesting when we come out of this, right? Cause there's a lot of psychology done around habits and how things become habits. And the way things become habits is you do them for a while, in sequence repeatedly and then that becomes kind of part of your routine. And before, even here at theCUBE, right? Remote interviews were probably, I don't know, 5% of our total output. And now they're going to be 100% for the foreseeable future. So, as you look at kind of people that are new to this, world of remote learning and remote working, it's going to be wild after they do this for a couple weeks hopefully get into the habit, to then, as you said in some prior things, this becomes the new normal and go into the office is the once every so often, when we actually have to have a big team meeting or some specific events. So you think this is going to probably be that tipping point till this becomes the new normal. >> I do think so. I think it will flip so that now, you may think that you and I are having a virtual conversation and it would be a real conversation, if we were in the same room. That will flip. Soon, this will be the real conversation. And if we meet in person, then it's an anomaly, and that's the virtual thing. >> Right. >> Because most of the time, we will connect like this and we will figure out ways to understand each other and know whether we can trust each other and sort of all these things will evolve on the digital side. And there's no reason why they wouldn't. >> Right. >> Other than the reluctance of human beings to change their behavior. >> Inertia is a powerful thing. So let's say >> As they say that, first we form habits, then habits form us. >> There you go. >> And that's how it happens. You create some habit and then you become prisoner of that habit. If you create that and you can't get rid of it. But you just have to force yourself out of it. >> Right, and this is a forcing function, like none other in terms of this whole world. >> Exactly. >> So, shifting gears a little bit to kind of your day job, beyond just leading but actually worrying about security. RSA was the last big show we went to, late January, early February. All about security, Hacker One's all about security. I would imagine now that everybody's working from home and the pressure on bringing your own devices and we're seeing all this funny stuff about Zoom. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. And now of course everybody's jumping on all of the vulnerabilities, etc. What are you seeing in kind of the hacker world and security world as this huge shift has moved to people working from home and remote schools, etc. >> Well, it's clear that society now has to work from home and figure out distributed ways of getting education or work done. And as a result, criminality will go there as well. So we have to protect ourselves well. The first of the problems is, how do you protect yourself when you work from home? So then you talk about VPNs and how do you handle credentials and authentication and multi factor authentication to make sure that the connection is authentic and protected. So, that's the first one. The first order challenge that we have right now going on. But on a little bit longer scale, we are seeing now companies deciding to start using cloud services even more than before, because they realize that this could come back as evasion like, we are having now, could come back and you will again be at home. And then they say, how do we build our software and ICT infrastructure, such that we are not needed in the office? And the answer is move to the cloud. And when you move to the cloud, you again, the security posture changes somewhat. You don't have to worry about network security anymore, but you do have to worry much more about app sec, application security. So, whatever happens here, they are useful transitions, but they will put demands on security teams and business leaders to re-evaluate what they spend money on in security. We are very fortunate at Hacker One to be on the winning side here. Our services are exactly for this distributed virtual digital world. So, we are needed even more every day more and more because things are going online. But companies will need to rethink those things and stop spending on things that don't make sense anymore. >> Yeah. It is just wild, right? How this forcing function is really making everybody evaluate things a little bit closer and pushing them through that inertia that before you could kind of put it off, put it off, put it off. You can't put it off anymore. Time's now. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Well, we had a similar like when Y2K happened. We also had a hard limit, and we had to get stuff done. Now it's coming in a different way, sort of the punishment came without announcement, but we are in a similar crunch to get it done. And we will. >> Yeah. But, it will be difficult and it will put a lot of strain to people under the systems. But I do believe it's doable. >> Good. So, I want to shift gears one last time. We talked really about open source. >> Right. >> You've built your career on open source. My SQL was obviously open source and got bought by Sun eventually now, part of Oracle's portfolio then you did Eucalyptus. That was open source, right? Eventually got bought by hp. And now Hacker One, you're using really a network of hackers all over the world, to really help deliver the service. I'm just curious to get your take on the role of open source. It's been such a creative force for development. It's been such a creative force for kind of moving technology forward. How do you see it playing out now? What's the role of open source? Are you seeing projects? Are you seeing people rallying around, bringing the power of data and analytics and cloud to this problem? Cause to me, there's clearly a human toll of people being sick. But it's also a big data problem in terms of resource allocation, trying to sequence this thing and accelerate vaccine development. There's a lot of kind of big data, opportunities here to attack this thing. >> I think open source is even bigger now than it used to be. And it is a very powerful example of the fact that no matter how much we are threatened that we feel like we have to hunker down and isolate ourselves from others and foreign groups or people are dangerous. In reality, the biggest accomplishments in society are always about collaboration by large groups of really intelligent driven people. Because software is eating the world, open source is eating the world. And today, if you don't use open source software, you're just plain stupid. So, it has really taken over the whole world. And it is now enabling all these new innovations and initiatives that we didn't do before in big data, collecting big data, analyzing data. We see it in the whole area of DNA medicine, where the researchers are sharing their findings with everybody. And that's very much like open source software. They don't call it open source software, but the mechanisms are the same. Everybody is doing it for their own good, but by sharing it, they multiply the value of what they did, and it speeds up innovation, so that it outperforms anything done in a closed laboratory or a closed source company. So it's wonderful to have been part of the open source revolution because it is spawning so many other initiatives and phenomena on a societal level. And this is just the beginning. It will go into politics, it will go into news, it will go into the assessment of fake news. Reddit is completely self moderate. They don't hire the moderators. The moderators are provided by the community and they self moderate. And understanding how to self govern, self moderate, at very large scale. That's the key to success in many areas. So, open source software is enormous and yet, it's just one little part of the whole world of community driven innovation. >> Right. Such a great lesson though, because, as we think back to kind of the last kind of national rally around say, World War Two, where Kaiser started building ships, and Ford was building airplanes. And we've got some of that going on with with Elon Musk, and people building respirators and some of these physical things, but there's this whole kind of software and big data, AI, machine learning thing that's happening on the background, around the genome and in the vaccine development that's not quite as visible, but really such an important part of this battle that we haven't seen. And then, of course, the other place is no place to hide. The fact that this is happening all over the globe, at the same time to everyone, regardless of your religion, your politics, your geography. It's really a unique moment in time. Hopefully one that we're not going to... >> It could be our best hope against Coronavirus. The fact that the scientists are right now working together and sharing their findings, quickly going from one test to the next and figuring out what works. And mankind hasn't had that capacity before. But now we do. So, we can't know whether it will take a long time or a short time, but at least we are getting all the resources to bear and we put them together and people share. >> Right. >> Which is what's driving the innovation here. >> Right, Martin. I guess, just a last kind of topic before I let you go, kind of circling fully back to leadership. One of the comments you talked about, about these types of times really favoring the bold. I really liked that line that is, don't be scared. It's really an opportunity for the people who have it together and are making the right priorities, to shine and to really kind of rise above the fray. I wonder if you can share a little bit more your thoughts about that from a leadership point of view. It's a time of challenge, but it's really also a time of opportunity. >> I think it's exactly like you said. It's like the Stockdale paradox. Admiral Stockdale who was a prisoner of war, over seven years, and was tortured during those years. Every day, he decided to, on one hand, be ready to face any brutal reality he might face, but on the other hand, never give up hope that one day, he will come out and have no regrets, not looking back and be a free man again. And that's exactly what happened. Of course, we are not in as dire situation as he was, but society has a similar situation. That we must have the courage to face the exact brutality of and the reality of coronavirus right now, without thinking that we won't come out of it. We will absolutely come out of it. And we will come out of it with innovations and new models that will outshine whatever we had before. And we must be able to maintain this duality of, okay, I'm ready to face the reality and I'm ready to be in isolation, I'm ready to use a face mask, whatever it takes. But also, I will never give up hope about what will come once we come out of this. And with that mindset, as a company, as a family, an individual human being or a society, you can get through any problem. And this is what Admiral Stockdale taught us through his experience, and by sharing it with everybody. >> Well, Marten. Thank you for sharing that story, and thank you for sharing your experience and kind of your point of view. We really appreciate it. These are tough times and it's great to be able to look out to the leaders and to kind of share the burden, if you will, and hear from smart folks that have a point of view. So, thank you very much for your time. Best to your employee. Glad that person is recovering. And as you said, we will get through this and we'll come out stronger the other side. Thanks a lot. >> Absolutely. Thank you, Jeff. Good chatting with you. >> All right, thanks Marten. Jeff Rick here, signing off from the Palo Alto studios from the CUBE. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (soft music) (soft music)

(theme music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone, theCUBE's live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS re:Inforce '22. Big show for ground security, Amazon re:Invent's coming up. That's the big event of all time for AWS. re:MARS was another one, re:Inforce, the re:Shows, they call them, theCUBE's got you covered. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Dave Vellante, who's in an analyst session right now. He'll be back shortly. We've got 2 great guests from an amazing company, HackerOne, been on theCUBE many times, (mumbles) Marten Mickos, of course, a big time, (mumbles) We got two great guests. Sean Ryan, Sr. Principal Product Marketing Manager Will Kapcio, Senior Sales Engineer. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us John. >> So Marten's been on many times, he's such a character. He's such a legend. >> Yeah. >> Your company has had great traction, great community, just this phenomenal example of community meets technology and problem solver. >> Yeah. >> He's been part of that organization. Here at re:Inforce they're just kind of getting wind of it now, right? You hear an open, teamwork, breaking down the silos, a big theme is this whole idea of open community, but yet be hardcore with the security. It's been a big part of the re:Inforce. What do you guys think of the show so far? >> Loving it. Partly too, we're both local here in the Boston area. So the commute was pretty nice. (everyone laughs) And the heat wave broke the other day so that's wonderful, but yeah, great show. It's good to be back in person doing this kind of stuff and just, it's really lively. You get a lot of good energy. We've had a bunch of people stopping by trying to learn what we're all about and so, it's really fun. Great show so far. >> And you guys have a great company. Take a minute to explain for the folks who may not know HackerOne. Tell them what you guys do real quick in one minute. >> Okay, the quick elevator pitch. (chuckles) So really we're making the internet safer using a community of ethical hackers. And so our platform enables that so we can skill match the best talent that's out there around the world to help find all the vulnerabilities that your company needs to discover. So you can plug those holes and keep yourself safe. >> So in an era of a talent gap, Will, you know the technologies out there, but sometimes the skills are not there. So you guys can feel the void kind of a crowdsourced vibe, right? >> Yeah, exactly. If you're trying to build a security program, and apply defense in depth, we offer a terrific way to engage additional security talent either because you can't hire enough or your team is simply overloaded, too much to do, so. >> Hackers like to be a little bit, white hat hackers like to be independent, might want some flexibility in their schedule, live around the world. >> Yes. No question for hackers that do it full time, that do it part-time and then everything in between. >> Well, you guys are in the middle here with some real products. So talk about what's going on here. How vulnerable are the surface areas in organizations that you're seeing? >> Yeah, probably more so than you would think. So we ran a survey earlier this year, 800 security and IT professionals across North America and Europe. And one of the findings from that survey was that nearly a third, actually over a third, 37% of the attack surfaces, not secured. Some of it's not even known. They don't know what they don't know. They just have this entire area. And you can imagine, I mean there's a lot of reasons you know, real legitimate reasons that this happens. One of those really being that we don't know what we don't know. We haven't scanned our attack surface. >> And also it's about a decade of no perimeter anymore. >> Yes. >> Welcome to the cloud. >> For sure. Absolutely. And people are moving quick, right? You know, the Cloud perfect example. Cloud people are building new applications on top of these new underlying configurations happening on a constant basis. Acquisitions, you know, that's just a fast moving thing. Nobody can keep track of it. There's a lot of different skill sets you need you know. And yeah, skill shortage out there too. As we talked about. >> What's the attacker solution you guys have? You guys have this HackerOne attack resistance component, what's that about? >> That's right. So that is to solve what we call the attack resistance gap. So that area that's not protected, hasn't been secured, on top of just not knowing what those assets are, or how vulnerable they are. The other thing that happens is people are sort of doing status quo testing, or they're not able to keep up with effective testing. So scanners are great. They can catch common vulnerabilities, but they're not going to catch those really hard to find vulnerabilities. The thing that the really sophisticated attackers are going to go after. >> Yeah. >> So we use... This large community that we have of ethical hackers around the world to be able to skill match them and get them doing bug bounties, doing pen tests, really bulletproofing the organization, and helping them risk-rank what they find. >> Yeah. >> Triage these, do the retesting, you know, get it very secure. So that's how we do it on a high level. Will, you might have a-- >> Yeah. I mean there's a tremendous amount of automation out there, right? But you can't quite at least not yet replace critical thinking. >> Yeah. >> From smart security minds. So HackerOne has a number of solutions where we can apply those minds in different ways at different parts of the software life cycle at different cadences, to fit our customers' needs, to fit their security needs, and make sure that there's more complete human coverage throughout their software lifecycle, and not just automation. >> Yeah. I think that's a great point, Will and Sean, because you think about open source is like not only grown significantly, it's like's it is the software industry. If you believe that, which I do. Open source is there it's all software free. The integration is creating a DevOps movement that's going the whole level. So Devs are doing great. They're pumping out codes. In fact, I heard a quote here on theCUBE earlier this morning from the CTO Sequence Security that said: "Shift left but shield right." So shifting left is build your security into the code, but still you got to have a shield. You guys have this shielding capability with your attack module management service. So you now you got the Devs thinking: "I got to get better security native" So but they're pumping out so much code. >> Yep. >> There's more use cases, so there's going to be code reviews needed for stuff that she said, "What is this? We got to code review new stuff. A developer created something." >> Yes. >> I mean, that's what happened. That's what's going on everywhere, right? >> Exactly. We often hear that for every 100 developers, you've got one security professional. (John laughs) You know, talk about skill shortage that's just not sustainable. How are you going to keep up with that? >> Yeah. >> So-- >> Your phone is ringing off the hook. There's no phones anymore, but like technically-- >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, yeah, you need to go external find some experts who can help you figure that out, and keep up with that cadence, you know keeps going and going. >> So, HackerOne. I love the ethical thing. I mean, you know, I'm a big fan. Everyone who watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of Marten and your company, but it's not just bug bounties that you do. That's just people think of, they see that in the news. "Oh, I made a million dollars from saving Microsoft teams from being exploited" or something like that, or weird things big numbers. But you do more than that. There's code reviews, there's assessments, like a variety of different things, right? >> Yes, exactly. Exactly. >> What are the hottest areas? >> Yeah, I mean, that's exactly why we coined the term, Attack Resistance Management really is to help describe all those areas that we cover, so you're right, bug bounty is our flagship product. It's what we're best known for. And it's a terrific solution. But on top of that, we're able to layer things like vulnerability disclosure, pen testing and code review. >> Pen test is actually really important-- >> Attack surface management, you know, a whole suite of complimentary offerings to help you engage these hackers in new and interesting ways. >> Yeah. >> The bug bounty is very popular because it's fun. >> Yeah. >> I mean if your going to work on something... It's fun for the hackers but the white hat hackers, the companies they can see where's my bugs it's the fear of missing out and the fear of getting screwed over. That's the biggest driver, right, you Know-- >> Yes, definitely and we now have a product called assets. So this is attack surface management. And what we're able to do with that is bring that in leverage the ethical hackers to risk-rank. What's your assets out there? How vulnerable are these? What's critical? Feed that in, and then you know, as Will was saying we've got all kinds of different testing options. Sometimes bug bounty continuous that works. Sometimes you want pen test, you know, you want it bound. >> Well, the thing about the thing about the pen test, well the soccer report, Amazon's got soccer reports but pen test is a moving train. >> Yeah >> Cause if you're pushing new code, you got to pen test it all the time. It's not a one and done. >> Exactly. >> You got to keep it running. Just one and run, right? >> You can't do the old school penetration test once a year, big monolithic thing. You know, this is just a check the box for compliances like, no, you need to be focusing this on the assets that you're releasing, which are constantly changing. And doing ongoing smaller cadences of pen testing. >> I had someone at a conference had a few cocktails in them, confessed to me, that they forged a pen test report. >> Oh man. >> Wow! (everyone laughs) >> Because he's like, "Oh! It was three months ago. Don't Worry about it." Like, but a lot can happen in three months. No, this is reality, they are like, "I can't turn it around fast enough" They had an Apsec review... >> Yeah. >> In their company and... >> And that's it. >> I mean, I'm not saying everyone's doing bad behavior, but like people can look the other way that creates more vulnerabilities. >> It can happen. And even just that time space. Let's say you're only doing a pen test once a year or once every two years. That's a long time. It's a lot of dwell time, you can have an attacker inside mulling around your network. >> All right. So we get a big service here. This one, AWS, we're here at re:Inforce the trend that you see Amazon getting closer to the ecosystem, lot more integration. How are you guys taking HackerOne's attack surface area product management software, closer to Amazon? What's going involved? Because at the end of the day they're enabling a lot of value and their partners are growing and becoming platforms within of themselves. What is the connection with Amazon? Keeping those apps running? How do you guys do that? >> Yeah. So we've got a specific assessment type for AWS. So... On the one hand, we're bringing in the right group of ethical hack hackers who are AWS certified. They have the right skillset, we're matching them. We've got the right assessment type for them to be able to track against and find the right vulnerabilities, report on those. So this is our pen test offering geared particularly towards the AWS platform. And then we also have an AWS security hub integration. So if customers are using the AWS security hub, we can plug into that, feed that information. And that gets more to it, the defense and depth for your AWS. >> And you guys verify all the ethical hackers? Everything's verified? >> Oh yes, absolutely. Fully. >> Yep. So they're verified for their pen testing experience, and skills and of course their AWS skills in particular. And their work experience, making sure that it's long enough that it's good, background check, the whole nine, so. >> How far has Amazon come from your perspective, over the past few years with the security partnerships? I mean their services have grown every year. I mean, every Amazon re:Invent, thousands of new announcements, new services. I mean if they update the DNS server, it's a new thing. Right? So like everything's happening. >> Yeah. >> What's different now? >> It's great to see. I mean, you look around at how many different types of security solutions there are here how many different types of partners, and it just shows you that defense in depth again, it's a really critical thing. Been a wonderful partner for us. I mean that, they're a big fan of us. They tell us that all the time. >> Yeah, 'cause the customers use you. >> Cause they're customers too. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But no, it's, it's been great. So we're looking at, we've got some things on the roadmap, some continued integrations that we look forward to doing with AWS, but you know, again it's a great powerful platform. It gives customers a lot of freedom, but with that freedom comes the responsibility that's needed to actually-- >> Will, what's your take? We hear hybrid security keys, management systems, announced today, encrypt everything, don't have over permissive environments. Obviously they're talking about more platform and that type of stuff >> Absolutely. My take would be, I think our own partnership with the AWS security team is great evidence that they're thinking about the right things. We worked within conjunction with them to develop our pen test methodology. So that combined for proprietary HackerOne platform data and findings across all of our customers that are common issues found in AWS environments with their own knowledge and their own experiences from the AWS security team directly. So it's a pretty powerful checklist that we're able to run through on some of these customers and make sure that all of the most common miss-configurations and such are covered. >> Yeah. They're highly motivated to do that. 'Cause they get blamed for the S3 buckets being kept open. It's not even their fault. >> Right. (crosstalk) >> We got hack over in Amazon. Amazon's terrible! >> Yeah. You know, one of the things we like to talk about is the fact that, you know, cloud is really about automation, right? >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> But you can't automate that human ingenuity the skills that come with an actual human who has the experience and the know how to fix these things. >> It's a lot going on in Amazon. It's always been kind of like, you just described earlier in theCUBE. An erector set, not Lego blocks yet, but still kind of, you still got to build it. It's getting better in the Lego model, but there are challenges in protecting cloud, Will. I mean this is a big part of protecting cloud platforms like AWS. What are some of those challenges? >> I think some of the challenges are the ephemeral nature of the cloud can really result in developers, and you know really business units across an organization spinning up assets that IT or security don't know about. And so that's where things like HackerOne assets in those attack surface management style solutions come into play, trying to identify those assets proactively and make sure that they're receiving some sort of attention from the security team whether it's automated or manual or ideally both. >> You guys got a good solution. So how about the partnership? We got one minute left. Talk about your partnership with AWS. You guys are certified in their security group, with their team and marketplace, right? Talk about some of those things. >> Yeah, we've been in marketplace over a year. We've had that the specific solution that I mentioned the App Pen test for AWS in place and integrated with security hub for some time now. There's some other stats that we could probably share around the ethical hackers that we have working on that. We have a number of certified AWS hackers, who again they have the right skill set for AWS, and they've been a great partner. We are very focused on continuing to work with them, and build out some new offerings going forward. >> Well, you guys have done a great job. Will, tell your team congratulations on the tech side, on the product side, very strong community. You guys had a lot of success. Congratulations! And thanks for sharing on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us John. >> Thank you for your time-- We're here at re:Inforce where all the access tab is open, it's team oriented, we got cloud scale, data, encryption on everything. Big news coming out of re:Inforce, well, theCUBE's got it covered here. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break. (theme music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios on this kind of continuing leadership series that we've put together. Reaching out to the community for tips and tricks on kind of getting through what is, this kind of ongoing COVID crisis and situation as it continues to go weeks and weeks and weeks. And I'm really excited to have one of my favorite members of our community, is Nick Mehta, the CEO of Gainsight. Had the real pleasure of interviewing him a couple times and had to get him on. So Nick, thanks for taking some time out of your very busy day to join us. >> Jeff, honored to be here, thank you. >> Pleasure, so let's just jump into it. One of the reasons I wanted to get you on, is that Gainsight has been a distributed company from the beginning, and so I think the COVID, suddenly everyone got this work from home order, there was no prep, there was no planning, it's like this light switch digital transformation moment. So love to hear from someone who's been doing it for awhile. What are some of the lessons? How should people think about running a distributed company? >> Yeah, it's really interesting, Jeff, 'cause we are just by happenstance, from the beginning, distributed where we have, our first two offices were St. Louis and Hyderabad, India. So two places you cannot get there through one flight. So, you have to figure out how to collaborate asynchronously and then over time, we have offices in the Bay Area. We have tons of people that work from home. And so we try to tell people we don't have a headquarters. The headquarters is wherever you are, wherever you live and wherever you want to work. And so we've always been super flexible about come in to the office if you want, don't come in, et cetera. So different than some companies in that respect. And because of that, pre-COVID, we always a very heavy video culture, lots of video conferencing. Even if some people were in an office, there's always somebody else dialing in. One benefit we got from that is you never had to miss your kids' stuff or your family things. I would go to my daughter's performance in the middle of the day and know I can just dial into a call on the way there. And so we always had that. But what's amazing is now we're all on a level playing field, there's nobody in our office. And I got to say, this is, in some ways, even better 'cause I feel like when you're the person dialed in, and a lot of people are in a room, you probably had that experience, and it feels like you're kind of not on the same playing field, right? Hard to hear the jokes or the comments and you might not feel like you're totally in crowd, so to speak, right? But now everyone's just at their computer, sitting there in a chair all day doing these Zooms and it does feel like it's equalizing a little bit. And what it's caused us to do is say, hey, what are ways we can all recreate that community from home? So as an example, every 7:45 a.m. every day, we have a Zoom call that's just pure joy and fun. Trivia, pets, kids. The employees' kids announce people's birthdays and the weather. And so these ways we've been able to integrate our home and our work that we never could before, it's really powerful. It's a tough situation overall, and we feel for all the people affected. But even in tough situations, there are silver linings, and we're finding 'em. >> Yeah, it's funny, we just had Darren Murph on the other day. I don't know if you know Darren. He is the head of Remote Work at GitLab, and he-- >> Oh, yeah. >> And he talked about kind of the social norms. And one of the instances that he brought up was, back in the day when you had some people in the office, some people joining via remote, that it is this kind of disharmony because they're very different situations. So one of his suggestions was have everybody join via their laptop, even if they're sitting at their desk, right? So, as you said, you get kind of this level playing field. And the other thing which dovetails off what you just said is he always wanted executives to have a forcing function to work from home for an extended period of time, so they got to understand what it's all about. And it's not only looking through a little laptop or this or that, but it's also the distractions of the kids and the dogs and whatever else is happening around the house. So it is wild how this forcing function has really driven it. And his kind of takeaway is, as we, like say, move from can we get it into cloud to cloud first? And does it work on mobile to mobile first? >> Now it's really-- >> Yeah. >> It's really remote first. And if you-- >> Remote first. >> A remote first attitude about it and kind of turn it on it's head, it's why shouldn't it be remote versus can it be remote? It really changes the conversation and the dynamic of the whole situation. >> I love that. And just, GitLab, by the way, has been a true inspiration 'cause they are the most remote, remote company. And they share so much, I love what you said. As just two examples of reacting to what you said, pre-COVID, we always wanted to keep a level playing field. So we actually moved our all-hands meetings to be instead of being broadcast from one room, and you're kind of seeing this small screen with all these people, we all just were at computers presenting. And so everyone's on a level playing field. So I thought what GitLab said is great. And then the other point, I think post-COVID we have learned is the kids and the dogs aren't distractions, they're part of our life. And so embracing those and saying, hey, I see that kid in the background, bring them onto the screen. Even during work meetings, even customer meetings, you know? And I'm seeing, I'm on a customer meeting and the customer's bringing their kids onto the screen and it's kind of breaking this artificial wall between who we are at home and who we are at work 'cause we're human beings all throughout. At Gainsight, we talk about a human first approach to business and we've never been more human as a world than we are right now. >> Love it, love it. So another, get your thoughts on, is this whole idea of measurement and productivity at home. And it's really, I have to say, disturbing to see some of the new product announcements that are coming out in terms of people basically snoopin' on people. Whether it's trackin' how many hours of Zoom calls they're on, or how often are they in the VPN, or having their camera flip on every so many minutes or something. We had Marten Mickos on, who's now the CEO of HackerOne. He was CEO at MySQL years ago before it went to Sun and he had the great line, he said, it's so easy to fake it at the office, but when you're at home and you're only output is your deliverable, it makes it a lot easier. So I wonder if you can share some of your thoughts in terms of kind of managing output, setting expectations, to get people to get their work done. And then, as you see some of these new tools for people that are just entering this thing, it's just not right (chuckles). >> Yeah, I agree with you and Marten. I'm a huge fan of Marten, as well, I totally agree with both of it. And I think there's an older approach to work, which is more like a factory. It's like you got to see how many widgets you're processing and you got to micromanage and you got to monitoring and inspecting. Look, I don't run a factory, so maybe there are places where that model makes sense. So I'm not going to speak for every leader, but I could say if you're in a world where your job is information, services, software, where the value is the people and their knowledge, managing them that way is a losing battle. I go back to, some folks probably know, this famous TED Talk by Dan Pink on basically what motivates people. And in these knowledge worker jobs, it's autonomy, mastery and purpose. So autonomy, we have the freedom to do what we want. Mastery, we feel like we're getting better at jobs. And purpose, which is I have a why behind what I do. And I think, take that time you spend on your micromanagement and your Zoom, analyzing the Zoom sessions, and spend it on inspiring your team, on the purpose. Spend it on enabling your team in terms of mastery. Spend it on taking away barriers so they have more autonomy. I think you'll get way more out of your team. >> Yeah, I agree. I think it's, as Darren said, again, he's like, well, would you trust your people if you're on the fourth floor and they're on the sixth? So just-- >> Yeah, exactly. >> If you don't trust your people, you got to bigger issue than worrying about how many hours they're on Zoom, which is not the most productive use of time. >> People waste so much time in the office, and getting to the office. And by the way, I'm not saying that it's wrong, it's fine too. But it's not like the office is just unfettered productivity all the time, that's a total myth. >> Yes, so let's shift gears a little bit and talk about events. So, obviously, the CUBE's in the event business. We've had to flip completely 'cause all the events are, well, they're all going digital for sure, and/or postponing it or canceling. So we've had to flip and do all dial-ins and there's a whole lot of stuff about asynchronous. But for you, I think it's interesting because as a distributed company, you had Gainsight Pulse as that moment to bring people together physically. You're in the same boat as everybody else, physical is not an option this year. So how are you approaching Gainsight Pulse, both because it's a switch from what you've done in the past, but you at least had the benefit of being in a distributed world? So you probably have a lot of advantages over people that have never done this before. >> Yeah, that's a really interesting, insightful observation. So just for a context, Pulse is an event we do every year to bring together the customer success community. 'Cause, as you observed, there is value in coming together. And so this is not just for our employees, this is for all the customer success people, and actually increasingly product management people out there, coming together around this common goal of driving success for your customers. And it started in 2013 with 300 people, and last year, we had 5,000 people at our event in San Francisco. We had similar events in London and Sydney. And so it's a big deal. And there's a lot of value to coming together physically. But obviously, that's not possible now, nor is it advisable. And we said, okay, how do we convert this and not lose what's special about Pulse? And leverage, like you said, Jeff, the fact that we're good at distributed stuff in general. And so we created what we call Pulse Everywhere. We didn't want to call it Pulse Virtual or something like that, Pulse Webinar, because we didn't want to set the bar as just like, oh, my virtual event, my webinar. This is something different. And we called it Everywhere, 'cause it's Pulse wherever you are. And we joke, it's in your house, it's in your backyard, it's on the peloton, it's walking the dog. You could be wherever you are and join Pulse this year, May 13th and 14th. And what's amazing is last year we had 5,000 people in person, this year we already have 13,000 people registered as of the end of April. And so we'll probably have more than three times the number of people at Pulse Everywhere. And we're really bringing that physical event concept into the virtual, literally with, instead of a puppy pit, where you're in a physical event, you'll bring puppies often, we have a puppy cam where you can see the puppies. We're not giving up on all of our silly music videos and jokes and we actually ship cameras and high-end equipment to all the speakers' houses. So they're going to have a very nice digital experience, our attendees are. It's not going to be like watching a video conference call. It's going to be like watching a TV show, one much like what you try to do here, right? And so we have this amazing experience for all of our presenters and then for the audience. And we're really trying to say how do we make it so it feels like you're in this really connected community? You just happen to not be able to shake people's hands. So it's coming up in a few weeks. It's a big experiment, but we're excited about it. >> There's so many conversations, and we jumped in right away, when this was all going down, what defines a digital event? And like you, I don't like the word virtual. There's nothing fake or virtual. To me, virtual's second to life. And kind of-- >> Yeah. >> Video game world. And like you, we did, it can't be a webinar, right? And so, if you really kind of get into the attributes of what is a webinar? It's generally a one-way communication for a significant portion of the allocated time and you kind of get your questions in and hopefully they take 'em, right? It's not a truly kind of engaged process. That said, as you said, to have the opportunity to separate creation, distribution and consumption of the content, now opens up all types of opportunity. And that's before you get into the benefits of the democratization, as you said, we're seeing that with a lot of the clients we work with. Their registration numbers are giant. >> Totally. >> Because-- >> You're not traveling to spend money, yeah. >> It'll be curious to see what the conversion is and I don't know we have a lot of data there. But, such a democratizing opportunity. And then, you have people that are trying to force, as Ben Nelson said on, you know Ben from Minerva, right? A car is not a mechanical horse, they're trying to force this new thing into this old paradigm and have people sit for, I saw one today, 24 hours, in front of their laptop. It's like a challenge. And it's like, no, no, no. Have your rally moment, have your fun stuff, have your kind of your one-to-many, but really there's so much opportunity for many-to-many. >> Many-to-many. >> Make all the content out there, yeah. >> We've created this concept in this Pulse Everywhere event called Tribes. And the idea is that when you go to an event, the goal is actually partially content, but a lot of times it's connection. And so in any given big event, there's lots of little communities out there and you want to meet people "like you". Might be people in a similar phase of their career, a similar type of company, in our case, it could be companies in certain industry. And so these Tribes in our kind of Pulse Everywhere experience, let people break out into their own tribes, and then kind of basically chat with each other throughout the event. And so it's not the exact same thing as having a drink with people, but at least a little bit more of that serendipitous conversation. >> Right, no, it's different and I think that's really the message, right? It's different, it's not the same. But there's a lot of stuff you can do that you can't do in the physical way, so quit focusing on what you can't do and embrace what you can. So that's great. And good luck on the event. Again, give the plug for it. >> Yeah, it's May 13th and 14th. If you go to gainsightpulse.com you can sign up, and it's basically anything related to driving better success for your customers, better retention, less churn, and better product experience. It's a great event to learn. >> Awesome, so I want to shift gears one more time and really talk about leadership. That's really kind of the focus of this series that we've been doing. And tough times call for great leadership. And it's really an opportunity for great leaders to show their stuff and let the rest of us learn. You have a really fantastic style. You know I'm a huge fan, we're social media buddies. But you're very personable and you're very, kind of human, I guess, is really the best word, in your communications. You've got ton of frequency, ton of variety. But really, most of it has kind of this human thread. I wonder if you can share kind of your philosophy behind social, 'cause I think a lot of leaders are afraid of it. I think they're afraid that there is reward for saying something stupid is not worth the benefit of saying okay things. And I think also a lot of leaders are afraid of showing some frailty, showing some emotion. Maybe you're a little bit scared, maybe we don't have all the answers. And yet you've really, you're not afraid at all. And I think it's really shines in the leadership activities and behaviors and things you do day in and day out. So how do you think about it? What's your strategy? >> Yeah, it's really interesting you ask, Jeff, because I'm in a group of CEOs that get together on a regular basis, and I'm going to be leading a session on social media for CEOs. And honestly, when I was putting it together, I was like, it's 2020, does that still need to exist? But somehow, there is this barrier. And I'll talk more about it, but I think the barrier isn't just about social media, it's just about how a CEO wants to present herself or himself into the world. And I think, to me, the three things to ask yourself are, first of all, why? Why do you want to be on social media? Why do you want to communicate to the outside? You should have a why. Hopefully you enjoy it, but also you're connecting from a business perspective with your customers. And for us, it's been a huge benefit to really be able to connect with our customers. And then, who are you targeting? So, I actually think an important thing to think about is it's okay to have a micro-audience. I don't have millions of Twitter followers like Lady Gaga, but within the world of SaaS and customer success and retention, I probably have a decent number. And that means I can really connect with my own specific audience. And then, what. So, the what is really interesting 'cause I think there's a lot of non-obvious things about, it's not just about your business. So I can tweet about customer success or retention and I do, but also the, what, about you as an individual, what's happening in your family? What's happening in the broader industry, in my case of SaaS? What's happening in the world of leading through COVID-19? All the questions you've asked, Jeff, are in this lens. And then that gets you to the final which is the, how. And I think the, how, is the most important. It's basically whether you can embrace the idea of being vulnerable. There's a famous TED Talk by Brene Brown. She talks about vulnerability is the greatest superpower for leaders. I think the reason a lot of people have a hard time on social media, is they have a hard time really being vulnerable. And just saying, look, I'm just a human being just like all of you. I'm a privileged human being. I have a lot of things that luckily kind of came my way, but I'm just a human being. I get scared, I get anxious, I get lonely, all those things. Just like all of you, you know. And really being able to take off your armor of, oh, I'm a CEO. And then when you do that, you are more human. And it's like, this goes back to this concept of human first business. There's no work persona and home persona, there's just you. And I think it's surprising when you start doing it, and I started maybe seven, eight, nine years ago, it's like, wow, the world wants more human leaders. They want you to just be yourself, to talk about your challenges. I had the kids, when we got to 13,000 registrations for Pulse Everywhere, they pied me in the face. And the world wants to see CEOs being pied in the face. Probably that one, for sure, that's a guaranteed crowd pleaser. CEOs being pied in the face. But they want to see what you're into outside of work and the pop culture you're into. And they want to see the silly things that you're doing. They want you to be human. And so I think if you're willing to be vulnerable, which takes some bravery, it can really, really pay off for your business, but I think also for you as a person. >> Yeah, yeah. I think it's so insightful. And I think people are afraid of it for the wrong reasons, 'cause it is actually going to help people, it's going to help your own employees, as well, get to know you better. >> Totally, they love it. >> And you touched on another concept that I think is so important that I think a lot of people miss as we go from kind of the old broadcast world to more narrow casting, which is touching your audience and developing your relationship with your audience. So we have a concept here at theCUBE that one is greater than 1% of 100. Why go with the old broadcast model and just spray and you hope you have these really ridiculously low conversion rates to get to that person that you're trying to get to, versus just identifying that person and reaching out directly to those people, and having a direct engagement and a relative conversation within the people that care. And it's not everybody, but, as you said, within the population that cares about it it's meaningful and they get some value out of it. So it's a really kind of different strategy. So-- >> I love that. >> You're always get a lot of stuff out, but you are super prolific. So you got a bunch of projects that are just hitting today. So as we're getting ready to sit down, I see you just have a book came out. So tell us a little bit about the book that just came out. >> Sure, yeah, it's funny. I need to get my physical copy too at my home. I've got so a few, just for context. Five years ago, we released this first book on "Customer Success" which you can kind of see here. It's surprising really, really popular in this world of SaaS and customer success and it ties, Jeff, to what you just said which is, you don't need to be the book that everyone in the world reads, you need to be the book that everyone in your world reads. And so this book turned out to be that. Thousands of company management teams and CEOs in software and SaaS read it. And so, originally when this came out, it was just kind of an introduction to what we call customer success. Basically, how do you retain your customers for the long-term? How do you get them more value? And how do you get them to use more of what they've bought and eventually spend more money with you? And that's a mega-trend that's happening. We decided that we needed an update. So this second book is called "Customer Success Economy." It just came out, literally today. And it's available on Amazon. And it's about the idea that customer success started in tech companies, but it's now gone into many, many industries, like healthcare, manufacturing, services. And it started with a specific team called the customer success management team. But now it's affecting how companies build products, how they sell, how they market. So it's sort of this book is kind of a handbook for management teams on how to apply customer success to your whole business and we call it "Customer Success Economy" 'cause we do think the future of the economy isn't about marketing and selling transactional products, but it's about making sure what your customers are buying is actually delivering value for them, right? That's better for the world, but it's also just necessary 'cause your customers have the power now. You and I have the power to decide how to transport ourselves, whether it's buying a car or rideshare, in the old world when we could leave our house. And we have the power to decide how we're going to stay in a city, whether it's a hotel or Airbnb or whatever. And so customers have the power now, and if you're not driving success, you're not going to be able to keep those customers. And so "Customer Success Economy" is all about that. >> Yeah, and for people that aren't familiar with Gainsight, obviously, there's lots of resources that they can go. They should go to the show in a couple weeks, but also, I think, the interview that we did at PagerDuty, I think you really laid out kind of a great definition of what customer success is. And it's not CRM, it has nothing to do with CRM. CRM is tracking leads and tracking ops. It's not customer success. So, people can also check that. But I want to shift gears again a little bit because one, you also have your blog, MehtaPhysical, that came out. And you just came out again recently with a new post. I don't know when you, you must have a army of helper writers, but you talk about something that is really top of mind right now. And everyone that we get on theCUBE, especially big companies that have the benefit of a balance sheet with a few bucks in it, say we want to help our customers, we want to help our people be safe, obviously, that's first. But we also want to help our customers. But nobody ever really says what exactly does that mean? And it's pretty interesting. You lay out a bunch of things that are happening in the SaaS world, but I jumped on, I think it's number 10 of your list, which is how to think about helping your customers. And you give some real specific kind of guidance and guidelines and definitions, if you will, of how do you help our customers through these tough times. >> Yeah, so I'll summarize for the folks listening. One of the things we observed is, in this terrible tough times right now, your customers are in very different situations. And for simplicity, we thought about three categories. So the companies that we call category one, which are unfortunately, adversely affected by this terrible crisis, but also by the shutdown itself, and that's hotels, restaurants, airlines, and you can put other folks in that example. What do those customers need? Well, they probably need some financial relief. And you have to figure out what you're going to do there and that's a hard decision. And they also just need empathy. It's not easy and the stress level they have is massive. Then you've got, on the other extremes, a small number of your customers might be doing great despite this crisis or maybe even because of it, because they make video conferencing technology or remote work technology, or they make stuff for virtual or telemedicine. And those folks actually are likely to be super busy because they're just trying to keep up with the demand. So what they need from you is time and help. And then you got the people in between. Most companies, right, where there may be a mix of some things going well, some don't. And so what we recommended is think about your strategy, not just inside out, what you want, but outside in, what those clients need. And so as an example, you might think about in that first category, financial relief. The second category, the companies in the middle, they may need, they may not be willing to spend more money, but they may want to do more stuff. So maybe you unlock your product, make it available, so they can use everything in your suite for a while. And maybe in that third category, they're wiling to spend money, but they're just really busy. So maybe you offer services for them or things to help them as they scale. >> Yeah, so before I let you go, I just want to get your reaction to one more great leader. And as you can tell, I love great leaders and studying great leaders. Back when I was in business school we had Dave Pottruck, who at that time was the CEO of Schwab, come and speak and he's a phenomenal speaker and if you ever get a chance to see him speak. And at that point in time, Schwab had to reinvent their business with online trading and basically kill their call-in brokerage for online brokerage, and I think that they had a fixed price of 19.99, whatever it was. This was back in the late 90s. But he was a phenomenal speaker. And we finished and he had a small dinner with a group of people, and we just said, David, you are a phenomenal speaker, why, how, why're you so good? And he goes, you know, it's really pretty simple. As a CEO, I have one job. It's to communicate. And I have three constituencies. I kind of have the street and the market, I have my internal people, and then I have my customers and my ecosystem. And so he said, I, and he's a wrestler, he said, you know I treated it like wrestling. I hired a coach, I practiced my moves, I did it over and over, and I embraced it as a skill and it just showed so brightly. And it's such a contrast to people that get wrapped around the axle with their ego, or whatever. And I think you're such a shiny example of someone who over communicates, arguably, in terms of getting the message out, getting people on board, and letting people know what you're all about, what the priorities are, and where you're going. And it's such a sheer, or such a bright contrast to the people that don't do that that I think is so refreshing. And you do it in a fun and novel and in your own personal way. >> That's awesome to hear that story. He's a inspirational leader, and I've studied him, for sure. But I hadn't heard this specific story, and I totally agree with you. Communication is not something you're born with. Honestly, you might know this, Jeff, or not, as a kid, I was super lonely. I didn't really have any friends and I was one of those kids who just didn't fit in. So I was not the one they would pick to be on stage in front of thousands of people or anything else. But you just do it over and over again and you try to get better and you find, I think a big thing is finding your own voice, your own style. I'm not a super formal style, I try to be very human and authentic. And so finding your style that works for you, I agree, it's completely learnable. >> Yeah, well, Nick, thank you. Thanks for taking a few minutes. I'm sure you're super, super busy getting ready for the show in a couple weeks. But it's always great to catch up and really appreciate you taking some time to share your thoughts and insights with us. >> Thank you, Jeff, it's an honor. >> All right, he's Nick Mehta, I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching, we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston. This is an episode in the remote works, Citrix virtual series. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studio here on this ongoing leadership series that we've been doing, reaching out to people in the community to get their take on what's going on with the COVID situation, what are best practices, what can we learn and specifically today, really the whole new way to work, and working from home. And we're really excited to have two guests on for this segment. The first one is Amy Hayworth. She is the Chief of Staff for HR for Citrix, joining us from Florida. Amy, great to see. >> Great to see you, Jeff. >> And also Tamara McCleary, who's been on many, many times coming to us from Denver. She is a well respected speaker, you've probably seen her doing more speaking than anything else, and also the CEO of Thulium. Tamara, great to see you. >> Thank you, I'm so excited for this conversation. >> Well, let's just jump into it. So it's so funny and doing a little homework, Amy, I came across a Professional Change Management executive conference, 2015 and you were talking about building change management as a profession and working from home was part of that and that was like five years ago and things creep along and then we have a light switch moment where there's no time to plan, there's no time to think, there's no time to implement things, it's, everyone must now stay at home. And so, outside the human tragedy, that is the COVID situation, we're not going to really speak to that here. But from a business point of view, suddenly with no warning, everyone had to work from home. From someone who's been in the profession of trying to drive change management through a process over time, what does that do for you? How do you digest that suddenly oh my goodness, we've got this light switch moment which is a forcing function that may have never come, but now we have to go? I wonder what your take is. >> I think the thing that get me most excited about this light switch moment is it is showing all of us that we are capable beyond what we ever thought we were when it comes to change. We've been called to take a leap, and for much of my experience in the organizational change management field, we spend a lot of time talking about managing resistance and the pushback about change and there's even this thing that drives me crazy, which is change is hard. I don't know why we tell ourselves that message. And I think what this is showing us is that number one, change is inevitable, it's going to happen. There is very little control that we actually have, but also we are more resilient, more adaptable. We're capable of change than many of us knew that we were. And it is calling up for me, what do we need to put in place within organizations to cultivate resilience? Because one of the things I think this is making all of us very aware is how volatile the world actually is. And it's also laid bare where we are strong individually and able to cope and where we also may need to do a little bit of practice and some very intentional resilience building. Though I think the conversation around the whole change management field is about to change and my hope is that focus turns more to resilience than it is to managing change. >> It's interesting 'cause a lot of just the chatter that's out there, is about Zoom. Do I use Zoom? Do I not use Zoom? Is it secure? All this other, people like to jump into the technology piece. But really, we had your boss on the other day, Donna Kimmel, the EVP and Chief People Officer, Citrix and she broke it down into three buckets. Culture was number one, physical space is number two and digital space was number three. And I thought it was really interesting that she really leads with empathy and human factors and I think that it's easy to forget those, but bringing up simple things that not only are you working from home, but guess what, your kids are home too and your spouse is home too. And they have meetings and they have Zoom calls, they have to do it or the other dog is still running around and all the other kinds of distractions. So the human factors are so, so important. Tamara, one of your early keynotes about your early development was in your early career working with people who are at the end of their life. And I know it helped you develop an empathy and really a prioritization that I think a lot of people are probably getting today that maybe they haven't thought about, what is truly important, what is truly meaningful. And this again, is this forcing function to say let's pump the brakes a little bit, take a step back and think about what's really important and the human factors. Again, your take on this crazy situation. >> I think you're absolutely right Jeff, and the fact that really what this has done, to Amy's point, yes we are very capable of change, but we're mostly so resistant and unwilling to change. And it's not because we don't want to, it's because we fear what will happen if we do change. And sometimes it's like the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. And right now what has been forced upon us is to really think about critical issues. So when you're faced with a lack of toilet paper and uncertainty about your survival rate, you start to think about things in terms of say Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You're looking at that base level, that safety piece. And when people go to safety, they have really left that area of self actualization in what do I want to be, what do I want to do? And it's more about, oh no, what have I done? Do I like my life? I'm stuck here at home, wherever you're sheltering in place and am I really enjoying my life? Am I experiencing my life? And what we really have experienced through being forced to get on to video conferencing, how many of you out there are doing video conferencing like a billion times a day? We're being forced to really see each other as human beings. And that means whether you're the CEO or you're the EVP of global blah, blah, it doesn't matter. What matters is your dog is still barking, your child is still running around and needs something from you in that moment when you happen to be on a call. Because as we all know, with kids, when you say, I can't be bothered for the next 30 minutes, what do you think is going to happen? That's exactly the time when they need more grapes. So I think that what it does is it levels the playing field and it shows us all how human we are. It shows us our strengths as Amy pointed out, and it also shows us our communal frailty. >> So let's get into some of the specifics about what people are feeling. Citrix just commissioned this report put on by one pole, pretty timely, comes out in April, 2020, about working from home. And I think there was really some interesting stuff, still connectivity and bandwidth, still the biggest challenge that people have. Can I even get online, was the number one problem. And when they do, their wifi is slow and there's single sign on. All these things that we've been talking about for years and years and years. I mean, why, why Amy, have we still not gotten it done? It's fascinating to me that in 2020, we still have internet connectivity issues and people don't know how to turn on their microphone on their Zoom call, we're so far behind. >> Yeah, Jeff, I think what we're seeing is number one, it takes practice, then the need to be familiar with all these tools. I also have talked to many parents who first day of homeschool, my son tells me I can't call it homeschool 'cause it's different, it's virtual school, he says it's very different. But that first day, especially families with multiple children trying to get onto a Zoom call with their class, Heron is trying to work, possibly two parents in the house are connected. Our home WiFi networks just haven't taken this kind of load before, but very quickly I think we needed to realize as an organization that this is not work from home, this is working at home during the global pandemic and it is very different. So you mentioned that need to lead with empathy and to really understand what's going on, and I think that's so true and just that the humanness of what we've experienced, that one full research really talked about a few epic moments of mishap, whether it's taking a call from the garage, I have a colleague who would take from the car on the street, still sheltering in place, but the only quiet place to go to take a call. We have a legend in our Singapore office. There's a salesperson who made record numbers working from his garage for a month. So there are all sorts of heroics taking place to balance than in the midst of that when technology isn't acting as we would hope it would under normal circumstances, having to adjust quickly, whether that means staggering schedules, working through accommodations, teachers, however it needs to happen but I think the reality and the acceptance, going back to that humanness and empathy is that we all have to shift our mindset about what work means and even are at work. We've built up a lot of these polishished buttoned up personas and when we are able to actually let some of that down, I think what we're starting to see is connection on a much deeper level amongst teams and among colleagues. >> I'm just looking at the survey at how few people think that this is going to roll over into a little bit more of a permanent form. Only 37% think my organization in general will be more relaxed about remote working. I think staff will be allowed to work from home more regularly, 36%. We had Marten Mickos on and he ran MySQL before it got bought by Sun many moons ago. He talked that he had a distributed team from day one and he laughed. He said, "It's so much easier to fake it at the office, "to look busy versus when you're remote." As you just said Amy, you're only judged by your deliverables. And I thought it was so funny in your blog posts from earlier this year that when managers start managing by outcome and deliverable rather than assuming as good work's getting done because someone showed up at the office, I mean this is ridiculous that people are still judging things based on activity, not outcome. And we're even seeing now all these new tools that people are introducing in the marketplace. I can tell you how often your people are on Zoom and how many hours on the VPN. What are we measuring? We should be measuring outcomes and the piece that comes up over and over is trust. And if I can't trust you to deliver outcomes, I probably have a bigger problem than managing your day to day. Tamara, you see this all the time in terms of the trust and how important this is to relationships. >> I do and in fact our workforce at Thulium has always been a remote workforce. And for the way that I've built our organization is treat everybody like an adult and get your work done. And we do base everything upon productivity versus FaceTime. And I think that the reason some of these larger organizations have had this concept of show up having that FaceTime means that whoever gets there the earliest and leaves the latest somehow has been a better employee, it's not true. It is about productivity. And I think those wise organizations that look at how much they can save with the costs of like AC heat, the building cost, having a brick and mortar for everyone to come into it is very costly. And it's an old paradigm that a lot of middle managers have, which is this control piece. And that if the people are there in the office, they've got more control. And actually what we find is you don't need that control, especially when you look at the younger generational cohort coming up, how they have a totally different view of work. And we've talked a lot about the future of work and the gig economy, and what this COVID pandemic has done for us is to show us that actually work does get done at home. And in fact in some respects, more work gets done at home because it's harder to stop working when your work is happening right there at home. And so it does blur the lines and the boundaries between the work life than the home life. And so I think you get a lot more out of your employees when they work from home. >> It's funny, when Donna was on, she brought up a really interesting topic. She said, "Every time somebody pushes back on that, "can't be done from home." This job, this person, this type of task can't be done from home. The question should always be like, why? It almost sounds like when you move the whole cloud conversation that we've been tracking, went from, when should I move stuff to cloud, to why shouldn't you move to cloud? And it's not, does it work on a mobile, it should be mobile first. And now this conversation is moving this to, why can't somebody do it from home, as opposed to it has to be done from the office? So I think even just the relative flip of the context of setting up the question seems to be changing. That's why it surprised me that so few people think that it's going to go back. It clearly, especially as this goes on for a while, new behaviors become habits and they become normalized and hopefully, the senior management pays attention to the outcome and again, not this activity which is really not, that's not what you want people to do, you want them to actually get stuff done. >> Jeff and Amy, the other thing I was going to say is, Amy, when you look at the report that Citrix has put out, how many people are even going to be able to go back to work when kids aren't going back to school? And then we have summer, piggybacking onto that, so now you've got parents who have kids at home, what is that outlook? To me, it's not just this simple, okay, it's over, let's get back to work guys, because the rest of our life has completely shifted as well. >> That was actually my conversation today, is starting to really think about holistically when it comes to policies, programs, what are we putting in place for the summer? And not only that, but even some of our employees who have been alone through this, I think at the beginning, there was a very large shift on those who had children or elder care to think about. And at some point, at least in this half of the world, about last week, we really started to hear, worried about this person who's been alone by themselves in their apartment sheltering for over a month. So I think if they start to look at the variety of experiences people are having, really being sensitive to different personas in the organization, different needs, different emotions that are happening and we even start to think about, what does that mean to come back to work? And I know countries and organizations are being very cognizant about doing that. safely, in a very gradual  way of thinking about it, but it starts to get very, very complex very quickly and also from just let's do this well because there's a whole new set. Jeff, you bring up all new set of questions of employees asking, I wasn't allowed to work from home prior, I would like to do that more often now, new conversations with managers about, well, how are we going to measure results? There's a lot of work to be done between now and then, whatever what then is, to really ensure that we help everyone be successful. And I think the conversation we're having, it's likely not going to be one or the other. The new normal is not the old normal and we're not sure what it is but most likely, there's going to be some sort of hybrid working arrangement. Right now, the playing field is leveled and that in and itself is a very different work from home experience. What happens when it's hybrid again and there are some who are remote, some who are in the office, how do we make sure that it's equitable and all the voices have equal opportunity to chime in? Because when people are in the office and their colleague or two is remote, it's not a level of conversation in an organization. So whether that's establishing norms or really just starting to create behaviors where if one person's remote, then everybody's remote no matter if you're in the office or not, you dial in via go to meeting or whatever collaboration tool you're , so all sorts of things to think about, but I guess that is our ecosystem of work is going to change for sure. >> It was so funny in your blog posts, you talked a little bit about that as well. And one of the little paragraphs was, who gets to do it? It's like this binary decision, you can either work from home or you can't. And there's this whole second order impacts that we see on infrastructure, there's nobody in the trains or there's nobody on the freeways. You think, wow, we actually have a lot of freeways if everyone is not on them at the same time. So, begs a lot of questions are why is everybody driving to work at 8:30 in the morning to work on their laptop? Now clearly if you're in construction or service trades and you've got a truck and you got to go do something on site, they have to be there. But I think hopefully what this will do is help people as you're discussing, look at those who can. And even if it's one day a week, two days a week, one day a week, every couple of weeks. The impact on infrastructure, the impact on traffic, the environment, mental health, Amy, you talked about mental health, sitting in a car for an hour each way, every day certainly is not helping anybody feel better about themselves or get more work done. So I think there are so many benefits if you just look at it in the right context, focused on who can, not who can't and the how and the why and the enabler. But it's really interesting, we've talked a lot about the physical space and the cultural space. Imagine if this happened in 2006, before the iPhone came out, the smartphone. Think of the crazy amount of tools that we do have. I mean right now, we're talking and we spread out all over the country. So we're actually in a really fortunate space in terms of the digital infrastructure that we have in place to enable these things. And I know Citrix, you guys have been in the lead of supporting this forever, now even have a whole set up of resources, what's it called, the Citrix Remote Work Hub for people to get resource to figure out everything from the mental health to the WiFi connectivity, to all these other little things as Tamara said, how do you manage the kids and the dog and your significant other that also has Zoom meetings that they have to attend? So it's so many resources that people need to use and not feel uncomfortable that they're alone and could use a little bit of an assist. >> Absolutely well said. When this quickly became a forced experiment to work remote, Citrix has 30 years of history helping enable successful remote work in a secure way and the first thing that we wanted to do was be of service. So pulling together these resources has been a big project and we're so glad to be able to provide this tool set and we truly do hope that it makes this transition stronger, better, it will continue to grow and to evolve even as our own experiences evolve, new challenges arise, but we definitely want to keep it fresh and keep meeting the need that's out there, both internal for Citrix as much as in as long as we've been doing, we don't have it all figured out, we are learning too, this is unchartered territory for everyone, but also to take what we are learning and put it out there in a very transparent way. >> Right, I want to-- >> You know, I was-- >> Go ahead, Tamara. >> Sorry, but there was just something so crazy, Jeff, about the study that Citrix put out. And Amy, I wanted to bring this up to you because you said they're coworkers like, well, so-and-so lives alone, I wonder if they're okay or if they're lonely. But in the study, barely a quarter of the individuals reported any loneliness. I find that to be pretty shocking. >> It is shocking and I think it really speaks to how quickly those happy hours, the Zoom Happy Hours or the gatherings and some of the creativity that started to pop up, but yeah, you made a great point, Tamara, that was surprising and I'm curious if that will continue to be the case. (murmurs) >> But I guess maybe some of us when we got home, we were like, wow, this isn't so bad after all. And then can you imagine? So Jeff, if only 28% of people experienced any loneliness, imagine when you can have peace and quiet in your home again and still work. I think that this really is a lot more delicious than a lot of us anticipated it would be. And, what a grand social science experiment this has been! It's phenomenal. >> The fact that everyone is experiencing it at the same time globally just blows my mind. I was here for the earthquake, I was in Portland for Mount Saint Helens, I've been through a few little things here and there, but those are still regional, there's still a safe space, there's still people that don't have that story. Everyone, six or 7 billion people will have a where were you in March, 2020 story, which is fascinating. And then as you said, it's not only the work from home, there's no time to plan and no time to put infrastructure and, oh by the way, the kids are home too, and school is also from home. So in terms of an accelerant, it's just gasoline on the fire. But I want to jump in a little bit about one of the things you talked about Amy and you'll take camera 'cause you're doing it in your own company, and is in terms of establishing norms. I think people are maybe not thinking about the fact that they either need to establish new norms or they need to be very clear on the communication of what the norms are so that everybody is as you said Amy, feels comfortable in this new space because we have norms at work and now we have to have these new norms and there's all kinds of funny stuff going on in terms of we talked about dogs and kids, that this and that dressed, you're not dressed, you put makeup on, it's funny in the survey, do you take a shower? Only 30 some odd people take a shower every day, which I thought was kind of-- unexpected >> What about the shoe comment? Did you believe that, Jeff, where people actually would wear their shoes to their death? Well, I'll tell you, they didn't ask the women because the women would not be wearing high heels at home if they didn't have. >> They didn't specify which shoes, Tamara, they just said shoes. So maybe the more comfortable flats were the ones that were coming out. But I'm just curious on establishing social norms. Tamara, I'll let you go first, how did you establish them? Was it hard to do? Did they self self-generate and as a leader, do you have to police it or is it self policing? How's that working? And then Amy, from your point in terms of formal communication in a much bigger organization and being part of the HR office, one might say, isn't that already part of HR's charter? But how's that different now? Tamara, I'll let you go first. >> Sure, it's a great question because since we do have a remote workforce, one of the most salient things that I found to be critically important for productivity and collaboration and even cohesion and decreasing those silos between business unit is making sure that we form a community. And so what I mean by that is we have and always have had, we've been using video conferencing since before the pandemic and we have video conferencing meetings where video is on, so that's one of the parameters, is everybody needs to see everyone else's faces, and we have a morning kickoff meeting, an all hands meeting and then we have an end of week one as well and part of that piece, we call a standup where people either share something that's either a challenge within their workplace or with a customer or even in their own personal life, and then they end on something to celebrate because I think it's really important for us to cultivate that. But it really helps the teams to get to know one another. So just because someone in this business unit doesn't work with someone in this business unit, they know one another because of these team meetings that we have. And so I think creating a culture of positivity and collaboration versus competition and creating a culture where people feel a part of a team and a part of something bigger and where they see that their contribution makes a difference to the whole, creates a really delicious community that helps people feel valued at work. And I think with a remote workforce, you have got to pay attention to how you are creating that community and that feeling and sense of value to each and every individual within the organization. >> It's a very different kind of a challenge. Amy, your thoughts on more of a formal approach to establishing social norms to some of these big organizations, or do you treat it differently as a big organization or is it just a bunch of small little clusters of people that work together? >> I have so many thoughts on this, so I would love to have a two hour dialogue with both of you on this topic. Couple thoughts, there's implicit norms that develop organically, and then there's the explicit ones which for whatever reason we seem more hesitant to have very explicit conversations about norms. I don't know if people think it's tedious or something like that, I'm not sure, I haven't done that research yet. But in times of transition, it's so incredibly important just even for efficiency to add certainty, to make sure that everyone has the same message, same expectation to lean a little more heavily on the exquisite norms. Talking about how do we want to begin our meeting, let's reserve the first 10 minutes and just catch up like we would in the hallway. Some of that is a shift to how those meetings probably were happening two months ago. So making sure that everyone understands is that expectation and even little bit more of a warmup question. How's everybody feeling today? And even getting more specific, there is a couple of organizational gurus who I have been following quite a bit lately, Aaron Dignan and Rodney Evans, Aaron wrote a book called "Brave New Work" and they also have a podcast, but they really talk about the organization as an operating system. And when we look at norms, the norms are so much a part of that operating system and getting really clear about who does what here. There're things like how are not taken, how are we following up, in our current climate, who's checking on who? And so having some of those explicit conversations I think are incredibly important. And also for me with some of the work that I've been doing over the last six weeks is trying to harness goodness across the globe. So we have a group of site leaders who meet twice a week, their charge is to look after their location. So every location in the Citrix ecosystem that has more than 20 employees has a designated site leader during this time. And in bigger sites, they have pulled together committees, they're doing things that are local level to keep that site engaged, but what we're also looking to do is harness the best of the best. Some really amazing things, I did a radio calisthenic last night with our team in Tokyo. So something very true and personal to the Japanese culture but other sites, they're doing coffee chats and having drop-ins, celebrity guests, organizational leaders that are pretty high profile just popping in and out actively to have a very authentic Q&A conversations. There's some really inventive ideas to keep people engaged and also possibly establish new norm and I think that the question for me is, what do people like so much that they decide that it stays in place? When we do have of that thing and people are in the office more often, what level of connectivity will we keep? Even, will people start showering every day again? Some of these things, who knows what's going to happen? >> You make me want to go down to a to RNB and look in the meeting rooms at Intel, they used to have a very defined meeting, culture meeting, process meeting establishment, super efficient just like they're making chips. I wonder if they've changed a little bit in light of what's going on, but final note in terms of frequency and variety of communications. Both of you now have mentioned in the communications with your people and what you're hearing about is one is, you got to increase the frequency just period. And in fact, you might actually be communicating more frequently 'cause you don't necessarily chat all the time in the hallways when you're physically together. And the other thing that strikes me is the variety. It's not just the meeting, it's not just information exchange, it's touching base with community, it's establishing deeper relationships, it's doing some social things that, kind of the variety and the frequency of direct communication person to person, just not necessarily closer than six feet within one another has to go up dramatically, and is, as you're seeing in best practices in this new world. Amy, why don't you go first? >> I'm seeing a lot more Slack usage, we are an organization that has a multitude of tools to choose from, Slack being one of them, but highly engaged Slack community. The other thing that's become very clear as an insight is the more authentic the communication, the better. So our CEO, David Henshall has been doing video pieces and they had become increasingly more personal about whether it's his space where he exercises what he's doing for exercise, and the employee response has been deep appreciation for feeling several degrees more connected to our senior leadership. Other senior leaders on the team have profiled their own work from home antic in a very humorous way and so just finding inventive ways to leverage the communication vehicles we have, but at a level that is very true to the situation we're in and very human at their core. >> So Tamara, let me ask you a followup on that. You're big on social, it's a big part of your business helping other companies do better at social and engage in social, and it strikes me, especially in the real senior leadership ranks, there are those who tweet just to pick a platform, like Michael Dell, Sanjay Poonen, some CUBE alumni that you know, and then there's some that don't. And again, we talked about the contrast of IBM now, Ginny didn't tweet now, the new CEO announces it on LinkedIn. When you talk to CEOs and leaders about getting involved in social, I'm sure a lot of them that don't do it, just say the risk reward is not there, why am I going to expose some little personal tidbit of myself when the potential harm is great? But as we just heard from Amy, people like to know who the person is, people want to relate to who the person is. That's kind of part of the whole CUBE thing that we figured out a long time ago, is people are interested in the people that are behind the technology in the companies in the implementation. So how do you advise people, what do you see to convince them that, hey, it's actually in your best interest to show a little vulnerability, to show a little humanity, to maybe be scared sometimes and not necessarily have the right answer? How do you help coach them that these are good things, not bad things? >> It's so brilliant you brought this up, Jeff, because with the pandemic, a lot of the executives that were not on social media all of a sudden wanted to be on social media, and how do I do this, and how do I set up my thought leadership? Because this was a very primary mode of communication. And I think what we're seeing is that you do see a lot of the progressive CEOs and executive members on social media and then what you've outlined is there was a hesitancy by a lot of the CEOs who come from a different paradigm in which the hierarchal structure was such that they got to this level and why do I need to be on social media? And what we're seeing is that this push from the younger generational cohorts, which is they don't really see that hierarchal structure at all, and they want to be able to communicate with their CEO as much as they want to communicate with their manager. And when they can't, there is this distrust and you brought up the trust piece, which is huge. And I do know that a lot of global business leaders in highly regulated industries have been afraid, like in the financial services industry because there are a lot of rules and regulations. So I can understand and appreciate their hesitancy to be on social media, which is like a bit of the wild West. And you see those that are really pretty insulated from anything that they do, you can see like Elon Musk can tweet whatever he wants to tweet, and a lot of executives don't feel that they have that same sort of freedom. And so how we work with them, we work in the B2B and enterprise space is about what is it that you want to be known for? What is it that you're passionate about that would, Amy's point, be uplifting to those who not only work internally, your internal stakeholders, but to even your customers or those on the external, and stick to that? So no, you don't need to tweet about your political feelings, you don't need to tweet about sensitive subjects. We always say stay away from politics and religion, but you can absolutely establish a very authentic transparent, vulnerable thought leadership about the things that you care about. And we say pick three things. What three things do you want people to think of when you're not in the room? Pick three adjectives and then construct your editorial calendar, what you're doing on social media around how those three things are going to come to life. Through all of your email? Through your videos that you share with your community? And also what you're talking about on LinkedIn, Twitter and no, I'm not advising any of the executives to get on TikTok, but I do advise them to be on LinkedIn and Twitter. >> Matt Eastwood is starting to play with TikTok, so I don't know if you follow him on that, but he's a budding Casey Neistat. So I think he's getting into the TikTok thing, or even just TikTok edits, it's great. We could go on and on and on, and I really appreciate the time and it's just interesting again, pulling from Amy's blog post about leadership and you lead with trust, accountability, vulnerability, inclusion and communication. I think those are all human things and I think are so important. So final word, assuming things are going to get better in let's just say a year from now, we get back together and talk about how the new way to work has changed in a post COVID world, what do you hope that we'll be talking about that's different a year from now than we are today? Beyond obviously the COVID itself? Amy, you first. >> Wow. To narrow that down, I hope we are talking about how organizations have invested in helping our people find their strengths and feed with resilience and to understand what it is that helps them operate at their best, no matter what situation that you're in. >> That's great. Tamara? >> Me, Jeff, I'm going to hope that we are talking about the technology that's available a year from now that's going to help us have a much more immersive experience remotely working. So we'll be talking about hopefully things like the haptic internet, well that haptic interface with tactile internet and how AR, VR and mixed reality settings will help us as remote authors to feel like we're actually in meetings and having the same sort of experience that oftentimes we think we get only when we're at the building with everybody else. So I hope we're talking about how technology is really moving the needle forward to helping our remote workforce have that same experience and camaraderie and team building that they do in the physical space. >> Great. Well and again, there's this digital is different than physical, we're not together physically and we can't be right now, but we're together digitally. And so it's not the same, it's different, but there's a lot of good things about it too. So thank you both for taking the time, this has been a really great conversation. Amy, I agree with you, we could go for another couple of hours, but I think the crew would start throwing things at me. So I think we'll have to cut it off here. Thanks again and stay safe and really appreciate the time. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> Thank you. >> All right, thank you for tuning in, thanks for watching theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios today, having a Cube Conversation, you know, with the COVID situation going on we've had to change our business and go pretty much 100% digital. And as part of that process, we wanted to reach out to our community, and talk to some of the leaders out there, because I think leadership in troubling times is even more amplified in it's importance. So we're excited to be joined today by two leaders in our community. First one being John Chambers, a very familiar face from many, many years at Cisco, who's now the founder and CEO of JC2 Ventures. John, great to see you. >> Jeff, it's a pleasure to be with you again. >> Absolutely. And joining him is Umesh Sachdev, he's the co-founder and CEO of Uniphore. First time on theCUBE, Umesh, great to meet you. >> Jeff, thank you for having me, it's great to be with you. >> You as well, and I had one of your great people on the other day, talking about CX, and I think CX is the whole solution. Why did Uber beat cabs, do you want to stand on a corner and raise your hand in the rain? Or do you want to know when the guy's going to come pick you up, in just a couple minutes? So anyway, welcome. So let's jump into it. John, one of your things, that you talked about last time we talked, I think it was in October, wow how the world has changed. >> Yes. >> Is about having a playbook, and really, you know, kind of thinking about what you want to do before it's time to actually do it, and having some type of a script, and some type of direction, and some type of structure, as to how you respond to situations. Well there's nothing like a disaster to really fire off, you know, the need to shift gears, and go to kind of into a playbook mode. So I wonder if you could share with the viewers, kind of what is your playbook, you've been through a couple of these bumps. Not necessarily like COVID-19, but you've seen a couple bumps over your career. >> So it's my pleasure Jeff. What I'll do is kind of outline how I believe you use an innovation playbook on everything from acquisitions, to digitizing a company, to dealing with crisis. Let's focus on the playbook for crisis. You are right, and I'm not talking about my age, (John laughing) but this is my sixth financial crisis, and been through the late 1990s with the Asian financial crisis, came out of it even stronger at Cisco. Like everybody else we got knocked down in the 2001 tech bubble, came back from it even stronger. Then in 2008, 2009, Great Recession. We came through that one very, very strong, and we saw that one coming. It's my fourth major health crisis. Some of them turned out to be pretty small. I was in Mexico when the bird pandemic hit, with the President of Mexico, when we thought it was going to be terrible. We literally had to cancel the meetings that evening. That's why Cisco built the PLAR Presence. I was in Brazil for the issue with the Zika virus, that never really developed much, and the Olympics went on there, and I only saw one mosquito during the event. It bit me. But what I'm sharing with you is I've seen this movie again and again. And then, with supply chain, which not many people were talking about yet, supply chain crisis, like we saw in Japan with the Tsunami. What's happening this time is you're seeing all three at one time, and they're occurring even faster. So the playbook is pretty simple in crisis management, and then it would be fun to put Umesh on the spot and say how closely did you follow it? Did you agree with issues, or did you disagree, et cetera, on it. Now I won't mention, Umesh, that you've got a review coming up shortly from your board, so that should not affect your answer at all. But the first playbook is being realistic, how much was self-inflicted, how much was market. This one's largely market, but if you had problems before, you got to address them at the same time. The second thing is what are the five to seven things that are material, what you're going to do to lead through this crisis. That's everything from expense management, to cash preservation. It's about how do you interface to your employees, and how do you build on culture. It's about how do you interface to your customers as they change from their top priority being growth and innovation, to a top priority being cost savings, and the ability to really keep their current revenue streams from churning and moving. And it's about literally, how do make your big bets for what you want to look like as you move out of this market. Then it's how do you communicate that to your employees, to your shareholders, to your customers, to your partners. Painting the picture of what you look like as you come out. As basic as that sounds, that's what crisis management is all about. Don't hide, be visible, CEOs should take the role on implementing that playbook. Umesh to you, do you agree? And have fun with it a little bit, I like the give and take. >> I want to see the playbook, do you have it there, just below the camera? (Jeff laughing) >> I have it right here by my side. I will tell you, Jeff, in crisis times and difficult times like these, you count all the things that go right for you, you count your blessings. And one of the blessings that I have, as a CEO, is to have John Chambers as my mentor, by my side, sharing not just the learning that he had through the crisis, but talking through this, with me on a regular basis. I've read John's book more than a few times, I bet more than anybody in the world, I've read it over and over. And that, to me, is preparation going into this mode. One of the things that John has always taught me is when times get difficult, you get calmer than usual. It's one thing that when you're cruising on the freeway and you're asked to put the brakes, but it's quite another when you're in rocket ship, and accelerating, which is what my company situation was in the month of January. We were coming out of a year of 300% growth, we were driving towards another 300% growth, hiring tremendously, at a high pace. Winning customers at a high pace, and then this hit us. And so what I had to do, from a playbook perspective, is, you know, take a deep breath, and just for a couple of days, just slow down, and calmly look at the situation. My first few steps were, I reached out to 15 of our top customers, the CEOs, and give them calls, and said let's just talk about what you're seeing, and what we are observing in our business. We get a sense of where they are in their businesses. We had the benefit, my co-founder works out of Singapore, and runs our Asia business. We had the benefit of picking up the sign probably a month before everyone else did it in the U.S. I was with John in Australia, and I was telling John that "John, something unusual is happening, "a couple of our customers in these countries in Asia "are starting to tell us they would do the deal "a quarter later." And it's one thing when one of them says it, it's another when six of them say it together. And John obviously has seen this movie, he could connect the dots early. He told me to prepare, he told the rest of the portfolio companies that are in his investment group to start preparing. We then went to the playbook that John spoke of, being visible. For me, culture and communication take front seat. We have employees in ten different countries, we have offices, and very quickly, even before the governments mandated, we had all of them work, you know, go work from home, and be remote, because employee safety and health was the number one priority. We did our first virtual all-hands meeting on Zoom. We had about 240 people join in from around the world. And my job as CEO, usually our all-hands meeting were different functional leaders, different people in the group talk to the team about their initiatives. This all-hands was almost entirely run by me, addressing the whole company about what's going to be the situation from my lens, what have we learned. Be very factual. At the same time, communicating to the team that because of the fact that we raised our funding the last year, it was a good amount of money, we still have a lot of that in the bank, so we going to be very secure. At the same time, our customers are probably going to need us more than ever. Call centers are in more demand than ever, people can't walk up to a bank branch, they can't go up to a hospital without taking an appointment. So the first thing everyone is doing is trying to reach call centers. There aren't enough people, and anyways the work force that call centers have around the world, are 50% working from home, so the capacity has dropped. So our responsibility almost, is to step up, and have our AI and automation products available to as many call centers as we can. So as we are planning our own business continuity, and making sure every single employee is safe, the message to my team was we also have to be aggressive and making sure we are more out there, and more available, to our customers, that would also mean business growth for us. But first, and foremost is for us to be responsible citizens, and just make it available where it's needed. As we did that, I quickly went back to my leadership team, and again, the learning from John is usually it's more of a consensus driven approach, we go around the table, talk about a topic for a couple of hours, get the consensus, and move out of the room. My leadership meetings, they have become more frequent, we get together once a week, on video call with my executive leaders, and it's largely these days run by me. I broke down the team into five different war rooms, with different objectives. One of them we called it the preservation, we said one leader, supported by others will take the responsibility of making sure every single employee, their families, and our current customers, are addressed, taken care of. So we made somebody lead that group. Another group was made responsible for growth. Business needs to, you know, in a company that's growing at 300%, and we still have the opportunity, because call centers need us more than ever, we wanted to make sure we are responding to growth, and not just hunkering down, and, you know, ignoring the opportunity. So we had a second war room take care of the growth. And a third war room, lead by the head of finance, to look at all the financial scenarios, do the stress tests, and see if we are going to be ready for any eventuality that's going to come. Because, you know, we have a huge amount of people, who work at Uniphore around the world, and we wanted to make sure their well being is taken care of. So from being over communicative, to the team and customers, and being out there personally, to making sure we break down the teams. We have tremendous talent, and we let different people, set of people, run different set of priorities, and report back to me more frequently. And now, as we have settled into this rhythm, Jeff, you know, as we've been in, at least in the Bay area here, we've been shelter in place for about a month now. As we are in the rhythm, we are beginning to do virtual happy hours, every Thursday evening. Right after this call, I get together with my team with a glass of wine, and we get together, we talk every but work, and every employee, it's not divided by functions, or leadership, and we are getting the rhythm back into the organization. So we've gone and adjusted in the crisis, I would say very well. And the business is just humming along, as we had anticipated, going into this crisis. But I would say, if I didn't have John by my side, if I hadn't read his book, the number of times that I have, every plane ride we've done together, every place we've gone together, John has spoken about war stories. About the 2001, about 2008, and until you face the first one of your own, just like I did right now, you don't appreciate when John says leadership is lonely. But having him by our side makes it easier. >> Well I'm sure he's told you the Jack Welch story, right? That you've quoted before, John, where Jack told you that you're not really a good leader, yet, until you've been tested, right. So you go through some tough stuff, it's not that hard to lead on an upward to the right curve, it's when things get a little challenging that the real leadership shines through. >> Completely agree, and Jack said it the best, we were on our way to becoming the most valuable company in the world, he looked me in the eye and said "John, you have a very good company." And I knew he was about to give me a teaching moment, and I said "What does it take to have a great one?" He said a near death experience. And I thought I did that in '97, and some of the other management, and he said, "No, it's when you went through something "like we went through in 2001, "which many of our peers did die in." And we were knocked down really hard. When we came back from it, you get better. But what you see in Umesh is a very humble, young CEO. I have to remember he's only 34 years old, because his maturity is like he's 50, and he's seen it before. As you tell, he's like a sponge on learning, and he doesn't mind challenging. And what what he didn't say, in his humbleness, is they had the best month in March ever. And again, well over 300% versus the same quarter a year ago. So it shows you, if you're in the right spot, i.e. artificial intelligence, i.e. cost savings, i.e. customer relationship with their customers, how you can grow even during the tough times, and perhaps set a bold vision, based upon facts and a execution plan that very few companies will be able to deliver on today. So off to a great start, and you can see why I'm so honored and proud to be his strategic partner, and his coach. >> Well it's interesting, right, the human toll of this crisis is horrible, and there's a lot of people getting sick, and a lot of people are dying, and all the estimations are a lot more are going to die this month, as hopefully we get over the hump of some of these curves. So that aside, you know, we're here talking kind of more about the, kind of, the business of this thing. And it's really interesting kind of what a catalyst COVID has become, in terms of digital transformation. You know, we've been talking about new ways to work for years, and years, and years, and digital transformation, and all these kind of things. You mentioned the Cisco telepresence was out years, and decades ago. I mean I worked in Mitsubishi, we had a phone camera in 1986, I looked it up today, it was ridiculous, didn't work. But now, it's here, right. Now working from home is here. Umesh mentioned, you know, these huge call centers, now everybody's got to go home. Do they have infrastructure to go home? Do they have a place to work at home? Do they have support to go home? Teachers are now being forced, from K-12, and I know it's a hot topic for you, John, to teach from home. Teach on Zoom, with no time to prep, no time to really think it through. It's just like the kids aren't coming back, we got to learn it. You know I think this is such a transformational moment, and to your point, if this goes on for weeks, and weeks, and months, and months, which I think we all are in agreement that it will. I think you said, John, you know, many, many quarters. As people get new habits, and get into this new flow, I don't think they're going to go back back to the old ways. So I think it's a real, you know, kind of forcing function for digital transformation. And it's, you can't, you can't sit on the sidelines, cause your people can't come to the office anymore. >> So you've raised a number of questions, and I'll let Umesh handle the tough part of it. I will answer the easy part, which is I think this is the new normal. And I think it's here now, and the question is are you ready for it. And as you think about what we're really saying is the video sessions will become such an integral part of our daily lives, that we will not go back to having to do 90% of our work physically. Today alone I've done seven major group meetings, on Zoom, and Google Hangouts, and Cisco Webex. I've done six meetings with individuals, or the key CEOs of my portfolio. So that part is here to stay. Now what's going to be fascinating is does that also lead into digitization of our company, or do the companies make the mistake of saying I'm going to use this piece, because it's so obvious, and I get it, in terms of effectiveness, but I'm not going to change the other things in my normal work, in my normal business. This is why, unfortunately, I think you will see, we originally said, Jeff, you remember, 40% maybe as high as 45% of the Fortune 500 wouldn't exist in a decade. And perhaps 70% of the start-ups wouldn't exist in a decade, that are venture capital backed. I now think, unfortunately, you're going to see 20-35% of the start-ups not exist in 2 years, and I think it's going to shock you with the number of Fortune 500 companies that do not make this transition. So where you're leading this, that I completely agree with, is the ability to take this terrible event, with all of the issues, and again thank our healthcare workers for what they've been able to do to help so many people, and deal with the world the way it is. As my parents who are doctors taught me to do, not the way we wish it was. And then get your facts, prepare for the changes, and get ready for the future. The key would be how many companies do this. On the area Umesh has responsibility for, customer experience, I think you're going to see almost all companies focus on that. So it can be an example of perhaps how large companies learn to use the new technology, not just video capability, but AI, assistance for the agents, and then once they get the feel for it, just like we got the feel for these meetings, change their rhythm entirely. It was a dinner in New York, virtually, when we stopped, six weeks ago, traveling, that was supposed to be a bunch of board meetings, customer meetings, that was easy. But we were supposed to have a dinner with Shake Shack's CEO, and we were supposed to have him come out and show how he does cool innovation. We had a bunch of enterprise companies, and a bunch of media, and subject matter expertise, we ended up canceling it, and then we said why not do it virtually? And to your point, we did it in 24 different locations. Half the people, remember six weeks ago, had never even used Zoom. We had milk shakes, and hamburgers, and french fries delivered to their home. And it was one of the best two hour meetings I've seen. The future is this now. It's going to change dramatically, and Umesh, I think, is going to be at the front edge of how enterprise companies understand how their relationship with their customers is going to completely transform, using AI, conversational AI capability, speech recognition, et cetera. >> Yeah, I mean, Umesh, we haven't even really got into Uniphore, or what you guys are all about. But, you know, you're supporting call centers, you're using natural language technology, both on the inbound and all that, give us the overview, but you're playing on so many kind of innovation spaces, you know, the main interaction now with customers, and a brand, is either through the mobile phone, or through a call center, right. And that's becoming more, and increasingly, digitized. The ability to have a voice interaction, with a machine. Fascinating, and really, I think, revolutionary, and kind of taking, you know, getting us away from these stupid qwerty keyboards, which are supposed to slow us down on purpose. It's still the funniest thing ever, that we're still using these qwerty keyboards. So I wonder if you can share with us a little bit about, you know, kind of your vision of natural language, and how that changes the interaction with people, and machines. I think your TED Talk was really powerful, and I couldn't help but think of, you know, kind of mobile versus land lines, in terms of transformation. Transforming telecommunications in rural, and hard to serve areas, and then actually then adding the AI piece, to not only make it better for the front end person, but actually make it for the person servicing the account. >> Absolutely Jeff, so Uniphore, the company that I founded in 2008. We were talking about it's such a coincidence that I founded the company in 2008, the year of the Great Recession, and here we are again, talking in midst of the impact that we all have because of COVID. Uniphore does artificial intelligence and automation products, for the customer service industry. Call centers, as we know it, have fundamentally, for the last 20, 30 years, not have had a major technology disruption. We've seen a couple of ways of business model disruption, where call centers, you know, started to become offshore, in locations in Asia, India, and Mexico. Where our calls started to get routed around the world internationally, but fundamentally, the core technology in call centers, up until very recently, hadn't seen a major shift. With artificial intelligence, with natural language processings, speech recognition, available in over 100 languages. And, you know, in the last year or so, automation, and RPA, sort of adding to that mix, there's a whole new opportunity to re-think what customer service will mean to us, more in the future. As I think about the next five to seven years, with 5G happening, with 15 billion connected devices, you know, my five year old daughter, she the first thing she does when she enters the house from a playground, she goes to talk to her friend called Alexa. She speaks to Alexa. So, you know, these next generation of users, and technology users will grow up with AI, and voice, and NLP, all around us. And so their expectation of customer service and customer experience is going to be quantum times higher than some of us have, from our brands. I mean, today when a microwave or a TV doesn't work in our homes, our instinct could be to either go to the website of the brand, and try to do a chat with the agent, or do an 800 number phone call, and get them to visit the house to fix the TV. With, like I said with 5G, with TV, and microwave, and refrigerator becoming intelligent devices, you know, I could totally see my daughter telling the microwave "Why aren't you working?" And, you know, that question might still get routed to a remote contact center. Now the whole concept of contact center, the word has center in it, which means, in the past, we used to have these physical, massive locations, where people used to come in and put on their headsets to receive calls. Like John said, more than ever, we will see these centers become dispersed, and virtual. The channels with which these queries will come in would no more be just a phone, it would be the microwave, the car, the fridge. And the receivers of these calls would be anywhere in the world, sitting in their home, or sitting on a holiday in the Himalayas, and answering these situations to us. You know, I was reading, just for everyone to realize how drastic this shift has been, for the customer service industry. There are over 14 million workers, who work in contact centers around the world. Like I said, the word center means something here. All of them, right now, are working remote. This industry was never designed to work remote. Enterprises who fundamentally didn't plan for this. To your point Jeff, who thought digitization or automation, was a project they could have picked next year, or they were sitting on the fence, will now know more have a choice to make this adjustment. There's a report by a top analyst firm that said by 2023, up to 30% of customer service representatives would be remote. Well guess what, we just way blew past that number right away. And most of the CEOs that I talked to recently tell me that now that this shift has happened, about 40% of their workers will probably never return back to the office. They will always remain a permanent virtual workforce. Now when the workforce is remote, you need all the tools and technology, and AI, that A, if on any given day, 7-10% of your workforce calls in sick, you need bots, like the Amazon's Alexa, taking over a full conversation. Uniphore has a product called Akira, which does that in call centers. Most often, when these call center workers are talking, we have the experience of being put on hold, because call center workers have to type in something on their keyboard, and take notes. Well guess what, today AI and automation can assist them in doing that, making the call shorter, allowing the call center workers to take a lot more calls in the same time frame. And I don't know your experience, but, you know, a couple of weekends ago, the modem in my house wasn't working. I had a seven hour wait time to my service provider. Seven hour. I started calling at 8:30, it was somewhere around 3-4:00, finally, after call backs, wait, call back, wait, that it finally got resolved. It was just a small thing, I just couldn't get to the representative. So the enterprises are truly struggling, technology can help. They weren't designed to go remote, think about it, some of the unique challenges that I've heard now, from my customers, is that how do I know that my call center representative, who I've trained over years to be so nice, and empathetic, when they take a pee break, or a bio break, they don't get their 10 year old son to attend a call. How do I know that? Because now I can no more physically check in on them. How do I know that if I'm a bank, there's compliance? There's nothing being said that isn't being, is, you know, supposed to be said, because in a center, in an office, a supervisor can listen in. When everyone's remote, you can't do that. So AI, automation, monitoring, supporting, aiding human beings to take calls much better, and drive automation, as well as AI take over parts of a complete call, by the way of being a bot like Alexa, are sort of the things that Uniphore does, and I just feel that this is a permanent shift that we are seeing. While it's happening because of a terrible reason, the virus, that's affecting human beings, but the shift in business and behavior, is going to be permanent in this industry. >> Yeah, I think so, you know it's funny, I had Marten Mickos on, or excuse me, yeah, Marten Mickos, as part of this series. And I asked him, he's been doing distributed companies since he was doing MySQL, before Sun bought them. And he's, he was funny, it's like actually easier to fake it in an office, than when you're at home, because at home all you have to show is your deliverables. You can't look busy, you can't be going to meetings, you can't be doing things at your computer. All you have to show is your output. He said it's actually much more efficient, and it drives people, you know, to manage to the output, manage to what you want. But I want to shift gears a little bit, before we let you go, and really talk a little bit about the role of government. And John, I know you've been very involved with the Indian government, and the French government, trying to help them, in their kind of entrepreneurial pursuits, and Uniphore, I think, was founded in India, right, before you moved over here. You know we've got this huge stimulus package coming from the U.S. government, to try to help, as people, you know, can't pay their mortgage, a lot of people aren't so fortunate to be in digital businesses. It's two trillion dollars, so as kind of a thought experiment, I'm like well how much is two trillion dollars? And I did the cash balance of the FAANG companies. Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Alphabet, just looking at Yahoo Finance, the latest one that was there. It's 333 billion, compared to two trillion. Even when you add Microsoft's 133 billion on top, it's still shy, it's still shy of 500 billion. You know, and really, the federal government is really the only people in a position to make kind of sweeping, these types of investments. But should we be scared? Should we be worried about, you know, kind of this big shift in control? And should, do you think these companies with these big balance sheets, as you said John, priorities change a little bit. Should it be, keep that money to pay the people, so that they can stay employed and pay their mortgage, and go buy groceries, and maybe get take out from their favorite restaurant, versus, you know, kind of what we've seen in the past, where there's a lot more, you know, stock buy backs, and kind of other uses of these cash. As you said, if it's a crisis, and you got to cut to survive, you got to do that. But clearly some of these other companies are not in that position. >> So you, let me break it into two pieces, Jeff, if I may. The first is for the first time in my lifetime I have seen the federal government and federal agencies move very rapidly. And if you would have told me government could move with the speed we've seen over the last three months, I would have said probably not. The fed was ahead of both the initial interest rate cuts, and the fed was ahead in terms of the slowing down, i.e. your 2 trillion discussion, by central banks here, and around the world. But right behind it was the Treasury, which put on 4 trillion on top of that. And only governments can move in this way, but the coordination with government and businesses, and the citizens, has been remarkable. And the citizens being willing to shelter in place. To your question about India, Prime Minister Modi spent the last five years digitizing his country. And he put in place the most bandwidth of any country in the world, and literally did transformation of the currency to a virtual currency, so that people could get paid online, et cetera, within it. He then looked at start-ups and job creation, and he positioned this when an opportunity or problem came along, to be able to perhaps navigate through it in a way that other countries might struggle. I would argue President Macron in France is doing a remarkable job with his innovation economy, but also saying how do you preserve jobs. So you suddenly see government doing something that no business can do, with the scale, and the speed, and a equal approach. But at the same time, may of these companies, and being very candid, that some people might have associated with tech for good, or with tech for challenges, have been unbelievably generous in giving both from the CEOs pockets perspective, and number two and three founders perspective, as well as a company giving to the CDC, and giving to people to help create jobs. So I actually like this opportunity for tech to regain its image of being good for everybody in the world, and leadership within the world. And I think it's a unique opportunity. For my start-ups, I've been so proud, Jeff. I didn't have to tell them to go do the right thing with their employees, I didn't have to tell them that you got to treat people, human lives first, the economy second, but we can do both in parallel. And you saw companies like Sprinklr suddenly say how can I help the World Health Organization anticipate through social media, where the next spread of the virus is going to be? A company, like Bloom Energy, with what KR did there, rebuilding all of the ventilators that were broken here in California, of which about 40% were, out of the stock that they got, because it had been in storage for so long, and doing it for all of California in their manufacturing plant, at cost. A company like Aspire Foods, a cricket company down in Texas, who does 3D capabilities, taking part of their production in 3D, and saying how many thousand masks can I generate, per week, using 3D printers. You watch what Umesh has done, and how he literally is changing peoples lives, and making that experience, instead of being a negative from working at home, perhaps to a positive, and increasing the customer loyalty in the process, as opposed to when you got a seven hour wait time on a line. Not only are you probably not going to order anything else from that company, you're probably going to change it. So what is fascinating to me is I believe companies owe an obligation to be successful, to their employees, and to their shareholders, but also to give back to society. And it's one of the things I'm most proud about the portfolio companies that I'm a part of, and why I'm so proud of what Umesh is doing, in both a economically successful environment, but really giving back and making a difference. >> Yeah, I mean, there's again, there's all the doctor stuff, and the medical stuff, which I'm not qualified to really talk about. Thankfully we have good professionals that have the data, and the knowledge, and know what to do, and got out ahead of the social distancing, et cetera, but on the backside, it really looks like a big data problem in so many ways, right. And now we have massive amounts of compute at places like Amazon, and Google, and we have all types of machine learning and AI to figure out, you know, there's kind of resource allocation, whether that be hospital beds, or ventilators, or doctors, or nurses, and trying to figure out how to sort that all out. But then all of the, you know, genome work, and you know, kind of all that big heavy lifting data crunching, you know, CPU consuming work, that hopefully is accelerating the vaccine. Because I don't know how we get all the way out of this until, it just seems like kind of race to the vaccine, or massive testing, so we know that it's not going to spike up. So it seems like there is a real opportunity, it's not necessarily Kaiser building ships, or Ford building planes, but there is a role for tech to play in trying to combat this thing, and bring it under control. Umesh, I wonder if you could just kind of contrast being from India, and now being in the States for a couple years. Anything kind of jump out to you, in terms of the differences in what you're hearing back home, in the way this has been handled? >> You know, it's been very interesting, Jeff, I'm sure everyone is concerned that India, for many reasons, so far hasn't become a big hot spot yet. And, you know, we can hope and pray that that remains to be the case. There are many things that the government back home has done, I think India took lessons from what they saw in Europe, and the U.S, and China. They went into a countrywide lockdown pretty early, you know, pretty much when they were lower than a two hundred positive tested cases, the country went into lockdown. And remember this is a 1.5 billion people all together going into lockdown. What I've seen in the U.S. is that, you know, California thankfully reacted fast. We've all been sheltered in place, there's cabin fever for all of us, but you know, I'm sure at the end of the day, we're going to be thankful for the steps that are taken. Both by the administration at the state level, at the federal level, and the medical doctors, who are doing everything they can. But India, on the other hand, has taken the more aggressive stance, in terms of doing a country lockdown. We just last evening went live at a University in the city of Chennai, where Uniphore was born. The government came out with the request, much like the U.S., where they're government departments were getting a surge of traffic about information about COVID, the hospitals that are serving, what beds are available, where is the testing? We stood up a voice bot with AI, in less than a week, in three languages. Which even before the government started to advertise, we started to get thousands of calls. And this is AI answering these questions for the citizens, in doing so. So it goes back to your point of there's a real opportunity of using all the technology that the world has today, to be put to good use. And at the same time, it's really partnering meaningfully with government, in India, in Singapore, in Vietnam, and here in the U.S., to make sure that happens on, you know, John's coaching and nudging, I became a part of the U.S.-India Strategic Partnership Forum, which is truly a premier trade and commerce body between U.S. and India. And I, today, co-chaired the start-up program with, you know, the top start-ups between U.S. and India, being part of that program. And I think we got, again, tremendously fortunate, and lucky with the timeline. We started working on this start-up program between U.S. and India, and getting the start-ups together, two quarters ago, and as this new regulation with the government support, and the news about the two trillion dollar packages coming out, and the support for small businesses, we could quickly get some of the questions answered for the start-ups. Had we not created this body, which had the ability to poll the Treasury Department, and say here are questions, can start-ups do A, B, and C? What do you have by way of regulation? And I think as a response to one of our letters, on Monday the Treasury put out an FAQ on their website, which makes it super clear for start-ups and small businesses, to figure out whether they qualify or they don't qualify. So I think there's ton that both from a individual company, and the technology that each one of us have, but also as a community, how do we, all of us, meaningfully get together, as a community, and just drive benefit, both for our people, for the economy, and for our countries. Wherever we have the businesses, like I said in the U.S., or in India, or parts of Asia. >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, this is a great conversation, I could talk to you guys all night long, but I probably would hear about it later, so we'll wrap it, but I just want to kind of close on the following thought, which is really, as you've talked about before John, and as Umesh as you're now living, you know, when we go through these disruptions, things do get changed, and as you said a lot of people, and companies don't get through it. On the other hand many companies are birthed from it, right, people that are kind of on the new trend, and are in a good position to take advantage, and it's not that you're laughing over the people that didn't make it, but it does stir up the pot, and it sounds like, Umesh, you're in a really good position to take advantage of this new kind of virtual world, this new digital transformation, that's just now waiting anymore. I love your stat, they were going to move X% out of the call center over some period of time, and then it's basically snap your fingers, everybody out, without much planning. So just give you the final word, you know, kind of advice for people, as they're looking forward, and Umesh, we'll get you on another time, because I want to go deep diving in natural language, I think that's just a fascinating topic in the way that people are going to interact with machines and get rid of the stupid qwerty keyboard. But let me get kind of your last thoughts as we wrap this segment. Umesh we'll let you go first. >> Umesh, you want to go first? >> I'll go first. My last thoughts are first for the entrepreneurs, everyone who's sort of going through this together. I think in difficult times is when real heroes are born. I read a quote that when it's a sunny day, you can't overtake too many cars, but when it's raining you have a real opportunity. And the other one that I read was when fishermen can't go out fishing, because of the high tide, they come back, and mend their nets, and be ready for the time that they can go out. So I think there's no easy way to say, this is a difficult time for the economy, health wise, I hope that, you know, we can contain the damage that's being done through the virus, but some of us have the opportunity to really take our products and technology out there, more than usual. Uniphore, particularly, has a unique opportunity, the contact center industry just cannot keep up with the traffic that it's seeing. Around the world, across US, across Asia, across India, and the need for AI and automation would never be pronounced more than it is today. As much as it's a great business opportunity, it's more of a responsibility, as I see it. There can be scale up as fast as the demand is coming, and really come out of this with a much stronger business model. John has always told me in final words you always paint the picture of what you want to be, a year or two out. And I see Uniphore being a much stronger AI plus automation company, in the customer service space, really transforming the face of call centers, and customer service. Which have been forced to rethink their core business value in the last few weeks. And, you know, every fence sitter who would think that digitalization and automation was an option that they could think of in the future years, would be forced to make those decisions now. And I'm just making sure that my team, and my company, and I, am ready to gear to that great responsibility and opportunity that's ahead of us. >> John, give you the final word. >> Say Jeff, I don't know if you can still hear me, we went blank there, maybe for me to follow up. >> We gotcha. >> Shimon Peres taught me a lot about life, and dealing with life the way it is, not the way you wish it was. So did my parents, but he also taught me it always looks darkest just before the tide switches, and you move on to victory. I think the challenges in front of us are huge, I think our nation knows how to deal with that, I do believe the government has moved largely pretty effectively, to give us the impetus to move, and then if we continue to flatten the curve on the issues with the pandemic, if we get some therapeutic drugs that dramatically reduce the risk of death, for people that get the challenges the worst, and over time a vaccine, I think you look to the future, America will rebound, it will be rebounding around start-ups, new job creation, using technology in every business. So not only is there a light at the tunnel, at the end of the tunnel, I think we will emerge from this a stronger nation, a stronger start-up community. But it depends on how well we work together as a group, and I just want to say to Umesh, it's an honor to be your coach, and I learn from you as much as I give back. Jeff, as always, you do a great job. Thank you for your time today. >> Thank you both, and I look forward to our next catch up. Stay safe, wash your hands, and thanks for spending some time with us. >> And I just want to say I hope and pray that all of us can get together in Palo Alto real quick, and in person, and doing fist bumps, not shake hands or probably a namaste. Thank you, it's an honor. >> Thank you very much. All right, that was John and Umesh, you're watching theCUBE from our Palo Alto Studios, thanks for tuning in, stay safe, wash your hands, keep away from people that you're not that familiar with, and we'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. (calm music)