>> Male Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018. Part of the CNCF Cloud Native Computing Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier with co-host, with Lauren Cooney, founder of Spark Labs, helping me out as analyst this week, great to have our next guest, shared acquaintance, Abby Kearns, Executive Director of Cloud Foundry Foundation, Cube alumni, welcome back! >> Thanks for having me back again. >> Got your voice, you're losing your voice from all the talking you're doing here on Cloud Foundry. >> Cloud cloud cloud all the time. >> So we were talking yesterday, I want to get you on because you guys have done some research. >> Yeah. >> On cloud, and we were chatting about, I should give you a plug on the opening segment yesterday about some of the things you're finding about Kubernetes. Certainly in our bubble, it's so passe now, we're moving on to STO and CUBE Flow, but you have research that, you know, is mainstream tech, outside of the bubble we live in, is actually now evolving into the first inning of Kubernetes, if you will. What does the research say, what's that all about? >> Well, the research says, trying not to apologize already, my voice is all over the place, so we've been tracking containers for now almost three years and I remember three years ago, everyone's like, "Okay, well we've talked about Docker for years now, "it's so passe," but when you got beyond the bubbles where tech is, people were just like starting to think about it. And so containers are just now getting to where people are either using them or using them as proof of concept. But Kubernetes has become a really big part of the conversation the last year, and it's continuing to take it by storm, and so we're starting to see organizations that are interested in it, but in terms of adoption and awareness beyond just the core central, there's still a massive education gap there. And a really big opportunity to educate people, not only on these tools, but what they really want to know is how do these tools help them get through their day and accomplish their work? >> So essentially, there's a lag of sequence of early adopters, fast followers, and now mainstream. Mainstream are getting accustomed to containers, now hitting up on Kubernetes, we're still pushing the front line. >> Well I think, you know, we are, and I think this is one of my observations as well, Abby, is that we look at these technologies, right? And I'm in the hallways, and I'm talking to folks in the cab line and things along those lines, and they're just here to actually learn about the technology, about Kubernetes, they actually don't understand it fully yet, and they're trying to figure out really what to do with it, and their companies have sent them here. And then it's, you know, you talk to the folks that are, you know, kind of were here for the long haul and were there at the beginning of CNCF and things along those lines, and they're like, "Oh yeah, everyone's adopted it," right? So you've got these two spectrums and I think my question to you is, what do you think is needed for this to really cross the chasm? >> Well, I'll actually answer that with another piece of data We do global research, and one of the things we found, we ask about, "What are your priorities for the next "couple of years?" and resoundingly across every persona, so developers, operators, IT decision makers, executives, their top three priorities for the next two years is continuous delivery. So let's think about that: continuous delivery for me is a priority; building that culture change is a priority; and so the tech is there to supplement that. But the real work, the hard work, is a priority, and I think that's exactly where it should be. So as these organizations really implement that continuous delivery methodology, they're going to pull these technologies in to supplement that. >> So it's not a technology problem, it's a people problem. But your point is, to the industry, let's be realistic and understand the segments that are adopting at what pace, matching education or evangelism or transformation at the right piece of the journey. >> Yeah, I mean all this tech, even Cloud Foundry, is a supplemental tool. >> Yeah. >> The hard work is really continuous delivery, building in that culture change, making software a core part of your business, making technology part of your day-to-day conversation, and that heavy lift has to come in order for any of these technologies to be successful. >> You guys have done a great job, I just want to say, Cloud Foundry, I want to give you some props. Congratulations on the work you've done. Take a minute to talk about some of the success. You're an ingredient in a lot of successful applications out there; what are some of the stats? How many people are using Cloud Foundry? What's some of the uptick, share some of the numbers of the performance with Cloud Foundry. >> Well, I mean we're in use of over half the Fortune 500 across every industry; what's been so phenomenal and so awesome about Cloud Foundry, and we really saw this at Summit, is all the industries that are using this to change. But what was interesting about our last summit, which we just had a couple of weeks ago, is all of these companies want to get on stage and not talk about the tech; they want to talk about the culture change. You know, hearing Boeing get on stage and say, "Actually, you know what the real work is "is the transformation we had to undergo "in order to do this work," and hear that over and over again, and it's so awesome to be part of that change because technology needs to be there to supplement that change and be part of that. But it's really great to see this come into fruition, like hearing the stories from Home Depot and Comcast and US Air Force and how it's fundamentally changing their businesses and helping them get out the door at scale, I mean that's really where the cool stuff happens. >> You've had great success there, and a lot of end users too, it's not like a bunch of one-offs. >> No. >> So how's the summit last week in Boston? >> It was amazing. We had half of our attendees at our summit are end users. And you know, the big high I get is like, hearing everyone talk about what they're doing and "This is what I did!" and stuff you've never heard of. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize you were using that," and "Oh, that's a really great way to use it "in very inventive ways," and so it really just refreshes you, like "Oh, this is what matters." The users and how they're using it and what they're going to do with the tech, I mean, isn't that why we're all here, right? And it's great, and they're creating such amazing technologies that it makes you energized about what's going on. >> Yeah, and I think it's amazing to me, cause I was actually at the Cloud Foundry summit as well, and there was one customer, I can't remember the name that got on stage, and they were using like, they had 2100 end users or something like that, developers, their company actually using Cloud Foundry, and I think that was the number, and I think it was really tremendous to see how many people inside of one company are actually using the technology across the board. It was really great. >> I mean, this is all about, I mean we're at a modern software era, and this is a whole new guard coming on board, and it's a whole new architecture. >> And it's a whole new way of thinking about it. Like, you know right now, we talk about how tech and there's a gap and we're pushing the tech and people are going to get there, but it's not going to be too long before the enterprises are pushing back and saying, "Hey, this is what I need, here's where I am, "I'm running at a scale you didn't think about yet." You know we're running, we have a lot of users that are running tens of thousands and thousands of applications: what about when they're in the hundreds of thousands of applications, and what does that look like? And they're saying, "Well I'm going to do this, "and here's what I need to do." >> There are going to be a lot of microservices. Abby, I got to ask you to end the segment. Thanks for coming on, I know you were rushed to come on, I appreciate you taking the time, you're super busy. What's your priorities for next year? Obviously you got a lot of successes under your belt. What's next, what are you going to check off the list this year? >> Well, inner operability is a big theme for me this year. And what does that mean, that means building bridges to other technologies and other projects, like the amazing work that's happening in CNCF and all those great technologies, so making sure that when those technologies mature, how do we bring those to the enterprise, and then really continuing to work on an ecosystem and work with our members and to really get more contributors around the table. >> Awesome, developers and contributors, dev plus contribute, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Thanks Abby. >> You're contributing your insight and I know you've got the voice going, but appreciate you taking the time, so Kube conversations here at theCUBE here in Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, we'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

>> Male Narrator: Live from San Jose, it's theCube. Presenting Big Data Silicon Valley, brought to you by SilconANGLE Media and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCube's continuing coverage of our event, Big Data SV in downtown San Jose. I'm Lisa Martin, my co-host is Dave Vellante. Hey Dave. >> Hey Lisa, how's it going? >> Good. >> Doing a great job here, by the way. >> Well thank you, sir. >> Keeping the trains going. >> Yeah. >> Well done. >> We've had a really interesting couple of days, we started here yesterday interviewing lots of great guys and gals on Big Data and everything in between. A lots of different topics there, opportunities, challenges, digital transformation, how can customers really evolve on this journey? We're excited to welcome back to theCube, one of our distinguished alumni, Matt Maccaux, the Global Big Data Practice Lead from Dell EMC. Welcome back. >> Well thanks for having me, appreciate it, it's a pleasure to be here. >> Yeah, so lots of stuff going on. We've been here, as I mentioned, we're down the street from the Strata Data Conference and we've had a lot of great conversations, very educational, informative. You've been with the whole Dell EMC family for a while now. We'd love to get your perspective on, kind of, what's going on from your team's standpoint. What are you seeing in the enterprises with respect to Big Data and being able to really leverage data across the business as a value driver and a revenue generator? >> Yeah, it's interesting that what we see across the business in terms of, especially in the big enterprises, there, many organizations, even the more mature ones, are still struggling to get that extra dollar, that extra level of monetization out of their data assets. They, everyone talks about monetizing data and using data, treating it as an asset, but organizations are struggling with that, not because of the technology, the technology's been put in, they've ramped up their teams, their skills. It's, what we tend to see inhibiting this digital transformation growth is process. It's organizational strife and it's not looking to best practices, even within own, their own organization, we're doing things like DevOps. So, why would we treat the notion of creating a data model any different than we would regular application development? Well, organizations still carry that weight, that inertia, they still treat Big Data and analytics like they do the data warehouse, and the most effective organizations are starting to incorporate that agile methodology and agile thinking, no snowflakes, infrastructure's code, these concepts of quickly and rapidly repeatedly doing these things, those are the organizations that are really starting to pull away from their competitors in industry. So, Dell EMC, our consulting group and our product lines are all there to support that transformation journey by taking those best practices and DevOps DataOps and bringing that to the analytical space. >> Do you think that companies, Matt, have a pretty good sense as to how applications that they develop are going to affect, create value, creating value is, let's simplify it, increasing revenue or cutting cost? Generally people can predict with the impact, they can write a business case around it. My observation was that certainly in the early days of so-called Big Data, people really didn't have an understanding as to the relationship between their data and that value, and so, many companies mistakenly thought, "Well I need to figure out how to sell my data," versus understand how data affects monetization. I wonder if you could comment on that and how has that progressed throughout the years? >> Yeah, that's a good point, we, from a consulting practice, used to do a lot of, what we call, proof of values, where organizations, after they kicked the tires and covered some use cases, we took them through a very slow, methodical business case RY analysis. You're going to spend this much on infrastructure, you're going to hire these people, you're going to take this data, and poof, you're going to make this much money, you're going to save this much money. Well, we're doing less and less of that these days because organizations have a good feel for where they want to go and the potential upside for doing this where they're now tend to struggle is, "Well, how do I actually get there?" "There's still a lot of tools and a lot of technologies and which is right for my business?" "What is the right process and how do I build that consensus in the organization?" And so, from a business consulting perspective, we're doing less of the RY work and more of the governance, the sort of, governance work by aligning stakeholders, getting those repeatable patterns and architectures in place to help organizations take that first few wins and then scale it. >> Where do you see the action these days? I mean there's somehow I profile use cases, obviously getting people to click on ads, Big Data has helped with that, fraud detection has come such a long way in the last 10 years, ya know, no doubt, certainly risk assessment, ya know, from the financial services industry. Those are the obvious ones, where else do you see Big Data analytics to the changing the world, if you will? >> Yeah, so I'd say those static or batch-type workloads are well understood. That, hey, is there fraud on transactions that occurred yesterday or last night? What is the customer score, lifetime value score for customer? Where we see more trends in the enterprise space is streaming. So, what can we catch in real time and help our people make real time decisions? So, and that is dealing with unstructured data. So, I've got a call center and I'm listening to the voice that's coming in, putting some sentiment analysis on that and then providing a score or script to the customer call agent in real time. And those, sort of, streaming use cases, whether it's images or voice, that, I think, is the next paradigm for use cases that organizations want to tackle. 'Cause if you can prevent a customer from leaving in real time, right, say, you know what, it sounds like you're upset, what if we did X to help retain you, it's going to be significant. All these organizations have a good idea of the cost it takes to acquire a new customer and the cost of losing a customer, so if they can put that intelligence in upstream, they no longer have to spend so much money trying to capture new customers 'cause they can focus on the ones they have. So, I think that, sort of, time between customer and streaming is where the next set of, I think, money's to be found. >> So customer experience is critical for businesses in any organization, I'm wondering, kind of, what the juxtaposition is of businesses going, "Yes, we have to be able "to do things in real time, in enterprise, "we have to be agile, yet we have, in order "to really facilitate a really effective, relevant, "timely customer experience, many departments "and organizations in a business need access to data." From a political perspective, how does Dell EMC, how does your consulting practice help an enterprise be able to start opening up these barriers internally to be able to enable data sharing so that they can drive and take advantage of things like real-time streaming to ultimately improve the customer experience, revenue, et cetera? >> Yeah, it's going to sound really trite, but the first step is getting everyone in a room and talking about what good looks like, what are the low-hanging... And everyone's going to agree on those use cases, there going to say, "These are the things we have to do," right, "We want to lose fewer customers, we want to..." You know, whatever the case may be, so everyone will agree on that. So, the politics don't come into play there. So, "Well, what data do we require for that?" "Okay, well, we've got all this data, great, "no disagreement there." Well, where is the data located? Who's the owner or the steward of that data? And now, who's going to be responsible for monetizing that? And that's where we tend to see the breakdown because when these things cross the line of business and customer always crosses the line of business, you end up with turf wars. And so this, the emergence of the Chief Data Officer, who's responsible for the policy and the prioritization and the ownership of these things is such a key role now, that, and it's not a CIO responsible for data, it is a business aligned executive reporting to the chief, CEO, COO, CFO. Again, business alignment, that tends to be the decision maker or at least the thing that solves for those conflicts across those BUs. And when that happens, then we see real change. But, if there's not that role or that person that can put that line in the sand and say, "This is how we're going to do it," you end up with that political strife and then you end up with silos of information or point solutions across the enterprise and it doesn't serve anyone. >> What are you seeing in terms of that CDO role? I mean, initially the Chief Data Officer was really within regulated businesses, financial services, healthcare, government. And then you've seen it permeate, ya know, to more mainstream. Do you see that role as having legs? A lot of people have questioned that role. What Chief Digital Officer, Chief Data Officer is encroaching on the CIO territory? I'm inferring from your comments that you're optimistic about that role going forward. >> I am, as long as it's well-defined as having unique capabilities that's different than the CIO. Again, I think the first generation of Chief Data Officers were very CIO-liked or CIO-for-data and that's when you ended up with the turf wars. And then it was like, "Okay, well this is "what we're doing." But then you had someone who was sort of a peer for infrastructure and so, it just didn't seem to work out. And so, now we're seeing that role being redefined, it's less about the technology and the tools and the infrastructure, and it's more about the policies, the consistency, the architectures. >> You know I'd observe, I wonder if we can talk about this for a little bit, it's the CDO role. To me, one of the first things a CDO has to do is understand how a company gets value out of its data, what is the, and if it's a full profit company, what's the monetization, where does that come from? Not selling the data, as we were talking about earlier. And then there is what data, what data, where are, what data architecture, data sources, how do we give access to that? And then quality, data quality seems to be something that they worry about. And then skills, not, none, no technology in here. And then somehow they're going to form relationships with the line of business and it's simultaneous to figuring that out. Does that seem like a reasonable framework for the CIO, CDOs job? >> It does, and you call them Chief Data Governance Officer, I mean, it really falls under the umbrella of governance. It's about standards and consistency, but also these policies of, there are finite resources, whether we're talking people or computes. What do you do when there's not enough resources and more demand? How do you prioritize the things that the business does? Well, do you have policies and matrices that say, "Okay, well, is it material, actionable, timely?" "Then yes, then we'll proceed with this." "No, it doesn't pass." And it doesn't have to be about money. However the organization judges itself is what it should be based on. So, whether we're talking non-profit, we helped a school system recently better align kids with schedules and also learning abilities by sitting them next to each other in classes, there's no profit in that other than the education of children, so every organization judges itself or measures itself a little differently, but it comes back to those KPIs. What are your KPIs, how does that align to business initiatives? And then everything should flow from there. Now, I'm not saying it's easy work. Data governance is the hardest thing to do in this space and that's why I think so few organizations take it on 'cause it's a long, slow process and, ya know, you should've started 10 years ago on it and if you haven't, it feels like this mountain that is really high to climb. >> What you're saying is outcome driven. >> Yeah. >> Independent of the types of organizations. I want to talk about innovation, I've been asking a lot of people this week, do you feel like Big Data, ya know, the meme of Big Data that was created eight, 10 years ago, do you feel like it lived up to its promises? >> That's a loaded question. I think if you were to ask the back office enterprises, I would say yes. In terms of customers feeling it, probably not, because when you use an Uber app to hail a cab and pay $3.75 to go across town, it feels like a quality of life, but you don't know that that's a data-driven decision. As a consumer, your average consumer, you probably don't feel that. As you're clicking through Amazon and they know, sort of, the goods that you need, or the fact that they know what you're going to need and they've got it in a warehouse that they can get to you later that day, it doesn't feel like a Big Data solution, it just feels like, "Hey, the people I'm doing business with, they know me better." People don't really understand that that's a Big Data and analytics concept, so, has it lived up to the hype? Externally, I think the perception is that it has not, but the businesses that really get it, feel that absolutely it has. That's 'cause you, do you agree it's kind of bifurcated? >> Matt Maccaux: Yeah, it is. >> The Spotify's and the Ubers and the Airbnb's that are crushing it and then there's a lot of traditional enterprises that are still stove pipe and struggling. >> Yeah, it's funny, when we talk to customers, we've got our introductory power points, right, it always talks about the new businesses and the old businesses and, and I'm finding that that doesn't play very well anymore with enterprise customers. They're like, "We're never going to be the Uber "of our industry, it's not going to happen "if I'm a fortune 100 legacy, it's not going to happen." "What I really want to do, though, "is help my customers or make more money here, "I'm not going to be the Uber, it's just not going to happen." "We're not the culture, we're not the, we're not set up "that way, we have all of this technical legacy stuff, "but I really want to get more value out of my data, "how do I do that?" And so that message resonates. >> Isn't that in some ways, though, how do you feel about this, is it a recipe for disruption, where that's not going to happen, but something could happen where somebody digitizes your business? >> Yes, absolutely, if there are organizations, if you're in the fortune 500 and you are not worried about someone coming along and disrupting you, then you are probably not doing the right job. I would be kept awake every night, whether it was financial services or industrial manufacturing. >> Dave Vellante: Grocery. >> Nobody thought that the taxis, who the hell would come in and disrupt the cab industry? Ya got to hire all these people, the cars are junk, the customer experience is awful. Well, someone has come along and there's been an industry related to this, now they have their bumps in the road, so are they going to be disrupted again or what's the next level of disruption? But, I think it is technology that fuels that, but it's also the cultural shift as part of that, which is outside the technologies, the socioeconomic trends that I think drive that, as well. >> But even, ya know, and we've got just a few seconds left, the cultural shift internally. It sounds like, from what you're describing, if an enterprise is going to recognize, "I'm not going to compete with an Uber or an Airbnb "or a Netflix, but I've got to be able to compete "with my existing peers of enterprise organizations," the CDO role sounds like it's a matter of survivability. >> Yes. >> Without putting that in place, you can't capitalize on the value of data monetized and et cetera. Well guys, I wish we had more time 'cause I think we're opening a can of worms here, but Dave, Matt thanks so much for having this conversation. Thank you for stopping by. >> Thanks for having me here, it was a real pleasure. >> Likewise. We want to thank you for watching theCube. We are continuing our coverage of our event, Big Data SV in downtown San Jose. For Dave Vellante, my co-host, I'm Lisa Martin. Stick around, we'll be right back with our next guest after a short break. (upbeat music)