>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas, It's theCUBE, covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE here in Austin, Texas at DockerCon 2017. I'm Stu Miniman with my cohost for the two days of live broadcast, Jim Kobielus. Happy to welcome back to the program, John Gossman, who is the lead architect with Microsoft Azure. Also part of the keynote this morning. John, had the pleasure of interviewing you two years ago. We went though the obligatory wait, Microsoft Open Source, Linux, and Windows and everything living together. It's like cats and dogs. But thanks so much for joining us again. >> Yeah well as I was saying, that's 14 years in cloud years. So it's been a lot of change in that time, but thanks for having me again. >> Yeah. Absolutely. You said it was three years that you've been working Microsoft and Docker together. 21 years in it, dog or cloud years, if you will. I think Docker is more whales and turtles, as opposed to the dogs. But enough about the cartoons and the animals. Why don't you give our audience just a synopsis of kind of the key messages you were trying to get across in the keynote this morning. >> Okay well the very simple message is that what we enabled this new technology, Hyper-V isolation for Linux containers, is the ability to run Linux containers just seamlessly on Windows using the normal Docker experience. It's just Docker run, BusyBox or Docker run, MySQL, or whatever it is, and it just works. And of course if you know a little more technical detail about containers, you realize that one of the reasons that the containers are the way there are is that all the containers on a box normally share a kernel. And so you can run a Canonical, Ubuntu on user space, on a Red Hat kernel or vice versa. But Windows and Linux kernels are too different. So if you want to run Windows container, it's not going to run easily on Linux and vice versa. And you can still get this effect, if you want it, by also using a virtual machine. But then you've got the management overhead of managing the virtual machine, managing the containers, all the complexity that that involves. You have to get a VHD or AMI or something like that, as well a container image and you lose a lot of that sort of experience. >> John, first of all, I have to say congratulations to Microsoft. When the announcement was made that Windows containers were going to be developed, I have to say that I and most of my peers were a little bit skeptical as to how fast that would work; the development cycle. Probably because we have lots of experience and it's always okay, we understand how many man years this usually takes, but you guys hit and were delivering, got through the Betas, so can you speak to us about where we are with Windows containers? And one of the things people want to kind of understand is, compared to like Linux containers, how do you expect the adoption of that now that it's generally available to roll out? Do I have to wait for the next server refresh, OS refresh, how do you expect your customers to adopt and embrace? >> Well we were able to get this to work so quickly because if you remember, Docker didn't actually invent containers. They took a bunch of kernel primitives that were in Linux and put a really great user experience on it. And I'm not taking anything away from Docker by doing that, because oftentimes in the technology industry, it's easy to make something that was complicated, powerful, but not easy to use. And Windows already had a lot of those kernel primitives, same sort of similar kind of kernel primitives built-in. They had to take out Java javax, I think when Windows 2000. And so it was kind of the same experience. We took the Docker engine, so we got the API, we were using the open source project, so we have complete compatibility. And then we just had to write a basically a new back-end, and that's why it was able to come up rather quickly. And now we're in a mode you know, Windows server updates things more incrementally, than we did in the past. So this will just keep on improving as time goes on. >> Okay, one of the other big announcements in the keynote this morning was LinuxKit. And it was open source project, we actually saw Solomon move it to open source during the keynote, when they laid out the ecosystems for it like IBM, HPE, INTEL and Microsoft. So what does that mean for Microsoft? You are now a provider of Linux? How are we supposed to look at this? >> Yeah. So we're working with all the Linux vendors. So if you saw our blog about the work we did today. We also have announcements from SUSE and Red Hat and Canonical, and the usual people. And one of the things I said in this box, I said look there's the new model is that you could choose both the Linux container that you want and the kernel that you want to run it on. And we're open to all sorts of things. But we have been working with Docker for a long time. On making sure that there was a great experience for running Docker for Linux on Windows. This thing called Docker for Windows. Which they developed. And we have been helping out. And that's basically an earlier generation of this same Linux technology. So it's just the next step on that journey. >> Microsoft's pretty well recognized to have a robust solution for a hybrid cloud. Cause of course you go your Azure stack, that you're putting on premises. There's Azure itself, it's really the cloud first methodology that you've been rolling through and you offer as a service. Containers really anywhere in your environment, baked in anywhere? How should we be thinking about this going forward? >> Yeah absolutely. I mean one of the points of containers in general, one of the attractive parts of containers is that they run everywhere. Including from your laptop, to the various clouds to bare metal, to virtualized environments. And so we have both things. We want Windows containers, where we're the vendor of the container. We want those to work everywhere. And we also, as the vendors of Azure and Azure Stack, and just server system center, and other older enterprise technologies. We want containers to work on all those things. So both directions. I mean, that's kind of the world we're in now, where everything works everywhere. >> Can you square you container strategy as reflected in your partnership with Docker, With your serverless computer strategy for Azure Functions? I'm trying to get a sense for Microsoft's overall approach to running containers as it relates to the Azure strategy. >> In some ways, you can think of this as a serverless functions mode as a step even further. You just deploy a hardware machine and install everything on it. Next thing, you'd have a virtual machine and you install everything. And then you put your code and all its affinities to the container. And with serverless with Azure Functions, it's like, well why do any of that? Just write a function. Now at the same time, we think there's lots of reasons. Under the covers, all of these past systems, going all the way back, that's how Docker started. Run a container underneath the covers. in the same place, it's not literally a Docker container, but the same place down in functions has that sort of a capability. And we're certainly thinking about how Docker can handle for work in that serverless model in the future. >> See one of my core focus areas for Wikibon as an analyst, is looking at developers going more deeply into deep learning and machine learning. To what extent is Microsoft already taking its core tools in that area and containerizing them and enabling access to that functionality through serverless APIs and functions and so forth in Azure? On the serverless stuff, I'm not on the serverless team. I'm not really qualified to explain everything on their end. I do know that the CNT team has a Docker container that they put the bits in. There's the Azure Machine Learning team who's been working a lot of these sort of technologies. I'm just not the right guy to answer that question. >> As you talk to your customers, where does this fit in to the whole discussion? Do containers just happen in the background? Is it helping them with some of their application modernization? Does it help Microsoft change the way we architect things? What's kind of the practitioner, your ultimate end user viewpoint on this? Well cloud adoption is at all points on the curve simultaneously. Even the inside of individual companies. So everybody's in it, in a kind of different place. The two models that I think people have really concentrated on, is on one end, the path at least is infrastructure where you just bring your existing applications and another one would be PADS, where you rewrite the application for a more modern architecture, more cloud centric architecture. And containers fit kind of squarely in the middle of that in some respects. Because in many ways and primarily, I see Docker containers as a better form of infrastructure. It is an easier, more portable way to get all your dependency together and run them everywhere. So a lot of lift-and-shift works is in there, but once you're in containers, it is also easier to break the components apart and put them back together into a more microservice oriented cloud-native model. >> I think that's a great point because we've been having this discussion about okay, there's applications that I'm rewriting, but then I've got this huge amount of applications that I need some way to have the bridge to the future, if you will. Because I don't know, there's one analyst firm that calls it bimodal, but to customers we talked to in general, we don't segment everything we do. I have application type infrastructure and I need to be able to live across multiple environments. Wrapping versus refactoring. >> And they do both. But I always prefer to, you know some people come in and they talk about legacy and they're developers. I'm a developer, right? Developers we always want to rewrite everything. And there's a time and place to doing that. But the legacy applications are required for those applications to work. And if you don't need to refactor that thing, if you can get it into a container or virtual machine or however, and get it into that more environment, and then work around it, re-architect it, it's a whole different set of approaches. It's a good conversation to have with a customer to understand. I've seen people go both too slow, and I see people refactor their whole thing and then try to figure out how to get it to work again. >> So Microsoft has a gigantic user base, What kind of things are you doing to help educate and help the people that had certification or jobs were running exchange to move towards this new kind of world and cloud in general. And containers specifically maybe. >> Well we have a ton of stuff. I'm not familiar with the certification programs myself, but we certainly have our Developer Evangelism team, out going out training people. We've been trying to improve our documentation. And we have a bunch of guidance on cloud migration and things like that. There is a real challenge and it's the same problem for our customers and anybody looking at cloud. Is to re-educate people who have been working in some of their previous moment. Which is another reason again, where the lift and shift stuff is, you can make it more like it is on Premise, or more like it is on your laptop. It makes that journey a little easier. But we're indefinitely in one of those points where the industry is changing so fast, I personally have to spend a lot of time, What's going on? What happened this day? What's new today coming to the conference, I learn new things. >> You bring up a huge challenge that we see. I kind of like Docker has their two delivery models. They've got the Community Edition, CE, and the Enterprise Edition, EE. An EE feels more like traditional software. It's packaged, it's on the regular release cycle. CE is, Solomon talked this morning about the edge pieces. Can I keep up with every six months, or can I have stuff flying at me? People inside of Docker can't keep up with the pace of change that much. What do you see, I mean, I think back to the major Windows operating system releases that we used to, like the Intel tick-tock on releases. It's the pace of change is tough for everyone, how are you helping, you know with you product development and customers, you know, take advantage of things and try to keep up with this rapidly changing ecosystem? >> This is a constant challenge with physically software now. We can't afford to only ever ship things every three years. And at the same time there's stability. So with the major products like Windows, we have these stable branches, where things are pretty much the same going along. And then there's an inactive branch Where things are coming down and the changes and the updates are coming. I'd say the one biggest difference I'd say, but you know I've been in this industry for a long time. So say between the '90s and now, is that we have so much of it is actually off servers. Where when something crashes, we get a crash dump and we can debug the thing and so going out in the field we have much more capability in finding what's going on in the customer base than we did 20 years ago. But other than that, it's just a really hard challenge to both satisfy people that can't have anything to change, and everything changing. >> John you've been watching this for a number of years, what do we still have left to do? We come back to DockerCon next year, you know, we'll have more people, it'll be a bigger event, but you know, what's the progression, what kind of things are you looking forward to the ecosystem and yourself and Docker, knocking down and moving customers forward with? >> The first year was kind of like, what is this thing? Second year was now, the individual Docker container is there now how do you orchestrate them and next step is how do we network these things. And there's an initiative now to standardize on storage, for storage systems and docker containers. Monitoring. There's a lot of things that are still to do. We have a long ways to go. On the other side, I think this other track, which we talked about today, which is that virtualization and containers are going to blur and mend, and I don't think that seven years from now we're going to be talking about containers or virtual machines, we're just going to be saying it's some unit of compute and then there's so much in knobs and tweaks that you want it a little more isolated, you want it a little less isolated, you trade off some performance for something else. >> Business capability, in other words the enterprise architecture framework of business capabilities, will be paramount in terms of composing applications or microservices. From what I understand you saying. >> Yeah, I think where we're really going to get to is a model where people we get past this basics of storage of networking and start working up the next level So things like Helm or DCS Universe, or Storm Stacks, where you can describe more of an application, it just keeps moving up. And so I think in seven years, we won't be talking so much about this, it'll some other disruption, right? But there won't be talking about this virtualization layer as much as building apps again. >> On a visual composition of microservices, what is Microsoft doing, you say that you long ago entered Microsoft during the Vizio acquisition, what's Microsoft doing to enable more visual composition across these functions, across orchestrated team-like environments going forward? >> I think there is some work going on. It's not my area again, on visual composition, despite the fact that I came from Vizio. I kind of got away from that space >> Well I'm betraying my age. I remember that period. >> All right. Well John, always a pleasure catching up with you and thank you so much for joining us for this segment. Look forward to watching Microsoft going forward. >> Thanks. Thank you for having me. We'll be back with lots more coverage here from DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. >>This is a cube conversation >>live on. Welcome to the Special Cube Virtual coverage of AWS Summit Online. This is an event of virtual event by AWS. We're covering with the Virtual Cube his Amazon, so it would have no >>looking started. We started. Thank you. Right >>everyone, welcome to this Special Cube. Virtual coverage of the AWS Summit Virtual Online This is an event that Amazon normally has in person in San Francisco, but now it's virtual around the world. Seoul, Korea, in Tokyo, all over the world, in Asia Pacific and in North America, I'm John Furrier Dave Jones Stew Minimum. Let's do We're kicking off aws Virtual with the Cube Virtual. I'm in Palo Alto with the quarantine crew. You're in Massachusetts in Boston when the quarantine crew there still great to have you on to talk about AWS Virtual summit. >>Yeah, John, it's it's great to see you. Ah, it's been ah, you know, interesting times doing all these remote interviews A Z Many of us say I don't blame hotels, but I do miss the communities I do miss the hallway conversation. But great to see you, John. Love the Midnight Madness shirt. We >>want to thank Amazon for stepping up with some sponsorship for allow us to do the Virtual Cube alongside their virtual event because now it's a global community. It's all virtual. There are no boundaries. The Cube has no boundaries to We've got a great program. We have Cory Quinn coming up. Expect to hear from him last week in AWS is known for is a rising star in the community. Certainly Cube guest and also guest host and analyst for the Cube. We spent to hear all the latest from his big zoom post controversy to really what's going on in AWS around what services are hot. I know you're going to a great interview with him, but that's not what Amazon we're seeing a ton of activity, obviously, most recently last week was the jet, I think, which was an agency protest kind of confidential. Microsoft blew that up big time with a post by their worldwide comes person. Frank Shaw countered by Drew Heard Who's the coms globally for end of us and so a war of words is ensuing. This is again pointing to the cloud Native War that's going on with a jet I conference gets Jedi contract a $10 billion which is awards to Microsoft. This shows that the heat is on to do. This is a absolute bloodbath between AWS and Microsoft. We're seeing it play out now virtually with Amazon ai Large scale cloud. This is huge. This is this is another level. A def con one. Basically your thoughts. >>Yeah, John, you know, you've covered this really well and really impressing plot number one you talk about You know, this requirement When AWS launched the govcloud had the CIA as a client early on many years ago. It was the green light for many companies to go from. Wait. Is the club secure enough? Do well, good enough for the federal government in the US It's probably good enough for the enterprise. When Microsoft one jet I they didn't have all the certifications to meet what was in the contract? They had a ticking clock. Make sure that they could meet those security engagements. Aziz. Well, as you know what, one of the pieces the esports that move was working, made a partnership announced with Azure. We know the federal government uses Oracle quite a bit, though they can now run that in azure and not have the penalties from Oracle. So you know that many have said, you know Hey, AWS, why don't you kind of let that one go? You got federal business, but those ripple effect we understand from one contract kind of move things around. >>Well, my take on this is just the tip of the teapot. Either Microsoft's got something that we don't know where they're running scared. My predictions do is that the clock is gonna take out D o. D. Is going award the contract again to Microsoft because I don't think the d. O. D. Wants to change basically on the data that I'm getting from my reporting. And then, ultimately Amazon will keep this going in court because Microsoft has been deficient on winning the deal. That is by the judge and in government contracts. As you know, when you're deficient, you're ineligible. So, essentially on the tech specs, Microsoft failed to meet the criteria the contract and they're deficient. They still can't host top secret content even if they wanted to. This is going to be a game changer when if this comes out to be true, it will be a huge tech scandal. If it's true, then am I gonna have egg on their face? OK, so we passed. This speaks to the large scale problems that are having with Cove it. You're seeing Amazon. They're all working at home, but they still got to run the servers. They >>can do >>it. They got cloud native. You've got Dev ops. But for their customers to be people who are trying to do hybrid. What >>are you >>hearing in terms of the kinds of situations that people are doing? Are they still going to work with maths on our There's still data centers that need to be managed. What >>are >>you hearing in the tech world's do around Covad 19. And as the cloud becomes more apparent, it's obvious that if you're not cloud native, you're going to be on the wrong side of history. Here is pretty obvious. >>Yeah, well, absolutely. John. There there is a bit of a Elwyn behind cloud. Everything from you mentioned work from home. Everybody needs to be on their VPN. They need to access their service access their services where they are. If you've got a global workforce, if you thought that your infrastructure was going to be able to handle that, you might not be in for a WS is meeting that need. There's been some of the cloud providers that have had performance issues have had to prioritize which customers can get access to things AWS standing strong. They're meeting their customers and their answering the call of cloud. You know, we know that AWS puts a huge investment into their environment. If you compare an availability zone from AWS, you know, it is very, very sturdy. It's not just, you know, a you know, a small cluster on. And they say, Hey, we can run all over the place, you know, to be specific It's, you know, John Azure has been having some of those performance issues and has been from concerns. Corey actually wrote a really good article talking about that. It actually put a bad you on public cloud in general. But we know not all public cloud with the same, though, you know, Google has been doing quite well, you know. Managing the demand spike, though, has AWS. Microsoft has needed to respond a little bit. >>It's just mentioned Microsoft's outages. Microsoft actually got caught on eight K filing, which you just have to be going through, and they noticed that they said they had all this up. Time for the cloud. Turns out it wasn't the cloud. It was the teams product. They had to actually put a strike a line through it legally. So a lot of people getting called out, it doesn't matter. It's a crisis. I think that's not gonna be a core issue is gonna be what technology has been needed the most. And I got to ask you still, when was the last time you and I talked about virtual desktops? Because, hey, if you're working at home and you're not at your desk, you need might need some stuff on your desk. This >>is a real issue. >>I mean, it's a >>kind >>of a corner case in tech, but virtual desktops. If >>you're not >>at the office, you need to have that at home. This is a huge issue. It's been a surge >>in demand. Yeah, there were jokes in the community that you know, finally, it's the year of VD I, but desktop as a service. John is an area that took a little while to get going. You know, Dave Volante and I were just having about this. You and Dave interviewed me when Amazon released workspaces, and it was like, Ah, you know, Citrix is doing so well and VD I, you know, isn't the hotness anymore, But that's not service as grown. If you talk about desktop as a service compared to V i p. I is still, you know, a bit of a heavy lift. Even if you've got, you know, hyper converged infrastructure. Roll this out. It's a couple of months to put these whole solutions together. Now, if you have some of that in perspective, can you scale it and you build them up much faster? Yes, you can. But if you're starting to enable your workforce a little bit faster, desktop as a service is going to be faster. AWS has a strong solution with work base. Is it really is that enablement? And it's also putting pressure on the SAS providers. One. They need scale and do they need to be responsive that some of their customers need to scale up really fast and some of them dial things down. Always worry about some of these on track that the SAS providers, but you in. So you know, customers need to make sure they're being loud and clear with their providers. If you need help. If you need to adjust something, you know, push back on them because they should be responsive because we know that there is a broad impact on this. But it will not be a permanent impact, though you know, these are the times that companies need to work closely with customers because otherwise you will. You will either make a customer for life, or you will have somebody that will not be saying about you for a long >>while. Still, let's just quickly run through some of the highlights so far on the virtual conference virtual event. Aussie Amazon Pre announced last month the Windows Migration Service, which has been a big part of their business. They've been doing it for 11 years, so we're gonna have an interview with an AWS person to talk about that also app Flows announced as well as part of the virtual kind of private, you know, private checks. So you're seeing that right here. Large scale data lakes breaking down those silos, moving data from the cloud from the console into the top. Applicants like Salesforce is a big one. That was kind of pre announced. The big story here is the Kendra availability and the augmented AI availability. Among other things, this is the big story. This kind of shows the Amazon track record they pre announced at reinvent, trying to run as fast as they can to get it shipping the focus of AI. The focus of large scale capacity, whether it's building on top of GC, too. Server list. Lambda ai. All this is kind of coming together data, high capacity, operational throughput and added value. That seems to be the highlights. Your reaction? >>Yeah, John, You know, at flow is an interesting one. We were just talking about asp providers. An area that we've been spending a lot of time talking with. The system is you know, my data is all over the place, you know? Yes, there's my data centers public, but there's all of these past provides. So, you know, if I have data in service now, I have it in workday. I have a sales force you know, how do I have connectors there? How do I You're that How do I protect that, though? Amazon, you know, working with a broad ecosystem and helping to pull that together. Eyes definitely an interesting one. What? Kendra definitely been some good buzz in the ecosystem for a while. They're You know, the question is on natural language processing and a I, you know, where are the customers with these deployments? Because some of them, if they're a little bit more long term, Egypt might be the kind of projects that get put on pause rather than the ones that are critical for me to run the business today. >>And I just did a podcast with the VM ware ecosystem last week talking about which projects will be funded. Which ones won't. It brings up this new virtual work environment where, you know, some people are going to get paid and some people aren't. If you're not core to the enterprise, you're probably not going to get paid. If you're not getting a phone call to come into work, you're probably gonna get fired. So there will be project that will be cut and projects that will be funded certainly virtual events, which I want to talk to you about in a minute to applications that are driving revenue and or engagement around the new workforce. So the virtualization of business is happening now. We joke because we know server virtualization actually enabled the cloud. Right? So I think there's going to be a huge Cambrian explosion of applications. So I want to get your thoughts. The folks you've been talking to the past few months, what are you hearing in terms of those kinds of projects that people will be leaning into and funding versus ones they might put on hold? Have you heard anything? >>Yeah. Well, you know, John, it's interesting when you go back at its core, what is AWS and they want to enable built. So, you know, the last couple of years we've been talking about all of the new applications that will get built. That's not getting put on hold, Jones. You know it. What? I do not just to run the business but grow the business. I need the We'll have applications at the core of what we do. Data and applications, Really. Or what? Driving companies today. So that piece is so critically important and therefore AWS is a very strategic partner there. >>I'm saying the same things Do I think the common trend that I would just add to that would be I'm seeing companies looking at the covert crisis is the opportunity and frankly in some cases, an excuse to lay people off, and that's kind of you're seeing some of that. But the >>end of >>the day that people are resetting, reinventing and then putting new growth strategies together that still doesn't change business still needs to get done. So great point. It's to virtual events were here with the AWS summit. Normally run the show floor. The Cube. We're here with the Virtual Cube doing our virtual thing. It's been interesting to a lot of our events have converted to virtual. Some have been canceled, but most of them have been been running on the virtual. We've been plugged in, but the cube is evolving, and I want to get your thoughts on how you see the Cube evolving. I've been getting a lot of questions that came again on the VM Ware community podcast. How is the Cube morphed and I know that we've been working hard with a lot of our customers. How have we evolved? Because we're >>in the >>middle of this digital way, this virtualization away. The Cube is in there. We've been successful. That's been different use cases. Some have been embedded into the software. Amazon's got their own run a show. But events are more than just running the show content. >>Yeah, more John, >>more community behind us to your thoughts and how well Cube has evolved. And what are you seeing? >>I'm glad, John. You just mentioned community. So you know, you and I have talked many times on air that, you know, the Cube is much network in the community as it is a media company. So, you know, first of all, it's been so heartening over the last couple of months that we've been putting out. We're still getting some great feedback from the community. One of things I personally miss is, you know, when we step off the stage and you walk the hallway and you bump into people that know when they ask your questions were you know, they share some of the things that they're going through. That data that we always look for is something we still need. So I'm making sure that reach out to friends, you know, diving back into the social channels to make sure that we understand the pulse of what's going on. But you know, John, you know, our community has always been online, though a big piece of the Cube is relatively unchanged. Other than we're doing all the interviews, we have to deal with everyone's home systems in home network. Every once in a while you hear a dog barking in the background or, you know, a child running, but it actually humanized. So there's that opportunity or the communities to rally together. Some of my favorite interviews have been, you know, the open source communities that are gathering together toe work on common issues, a lot of them specifically for the global endemic, you know, And so there are some really good stories out there. I worry when you talk about companies that are think, Hey, this There have been so many job losses in this pandemic that it just is heartbreak. So, you know, we've loved when the tech community is helping to spur new opportunities, great new industries. I had a great interview that I did with our friends from a cloud guru, and they've seen about a 20 to 30% increase on people taking the online training. And one of the main things that they're taking training on is the one on one courses on AWS on Google and on Azure, as well as an interesting point. John, they said, Multi cloud is something that come up. So you know, 2020 we've been wondering. Is aws going to admit that multi cloud is a thing, or are they going to stick with their hybrid message and, you know, as their partners not talk about? It's >>been interesting on the virtual queue because we and Amazon's been a visionary and this leading Q B virtual with them. It's become a connective tissues to between the community. And if you think about how much money the companies they're saving by not running the physical events and with the layoffs, as you mentioned, I think that could be an opportunity for the Cube to be that connective tissue to bring people together. I think that's the mission that we hope will unfold, but ultimately, digital investments will probably go up from this. I'm seeing a lot of great conversion around. Okay, So the content, What does it mean to me? Is that my friend group are my friends involved? How do I learn? How do I discover? How do I connect? And I think the interesting thing about the Cube is we've seen that up front. And I think there's a positive sign of heads do around virtualization of the media and the community. And I think it's going to be economic opportunity. And I hope that we could help people find either jobs or ways to re engage and reconnect. So again, reinvents coming. You got VM World. All >>these big shows do They dropped so much cash. Can you answer? They >>put all that cash with the community. I think that's a viable scenario. >>Yeah. No, Absolutely. John. There there is, you know, big money and events, you know? Yes, there are less cost. They're also, you know, almost none of them are charging for people to attend, and very few of them are urging the bunker. So, you know, big shift in and how we have to look at these. It needs to be a real focus on content. I mean from our standpoint, John, from day one. We've been doing this a decade now. In the early days when it was a wing and a prayer on the technology, it was always about the content. And the best people help extract that signal from the noise. So, you know, some things have changed the mission overall days. >>And you know what? Amazon is being humble. They're saying we're figuring it out. Of course, we're psyched that we're there with the Virtual Cube students do. Thanks for spending the time kicking off this virtual coverage wrap up. Not >>as good as face to face. >>Love to be there on site. But I think it's easy to get guests used to in the virtual world. But we're gonna go to a hybrid as soon as it comes back to normal. Sounds like clouds to public hybrid virtual. There it is too. Thanks so much. Okay, that's the cube coverage for AWS Summit. Virtual online. That's the Cube virtual coverage. I'm sure. First Amendment, Thanks for watching. Stay tuned for the next segment. Yeah, >>yeah, yeah, yeah