(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We're here with James Watters, CTO of Modern Applications at VMware here to talk about the big Tanzu cloud native application wave, the modernization's here. James, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, great to have you back on. And really excited about re:Invent this year. And I've been watching your coverage of it. There's lots of exciting stuff going on in this space. >> Awesome. Well, James, you've been riding the wave of, I would call cloud 1.0, 2.0 what do you want to call it, the initial wave of cloud where the advent of replatforming is there. You know all these benefits and things are moving fast. Things are being developed. A lot of endeavors, things are tracking. Some are kicking, Kubernetes kicks in, and now the big story is over the past year and a half. Certainly the pandemic highlighted is this big wave that's hitting now, which is the real, the modernization of the enterprise, the modernization of software development. And even Amazon was saying that in one of our talks that the sovereign life cycles over it should be completely put away to bed. And that DevOps is truly here. And you add security, you got DevSecOps. So an entirely new, large scale, heavy use of data, new methodologies are all hitting right now. And if you're not on that wave your driftwood, what's your take? >> Oh, I think you're dead right, John, and you know, kind of the first 10 years of working on this for sort of proving that the microservices, the container, the declared of automation, the DevOps patterns were the future. And I think everyone's agreed now. And I think DevSecOps and the trends around app modernization are really around bringing that to scale for enterprises. So the conversations I tend to be having are, Hey, you've done a little Kubernetes. You've done some modern apps and APIs, but how do you really scale this across your enterprise? That's what I think is exciting today. And that's what we're talking about. Some of the tools we're bringing to Amazon to help people achieve faster, consumption, better scale, more security. >> You know, one of the things about VMware that's been impressive over the years is that on the wave of IT, they already had great operational install base. They did a deal with Amazon Ragu did that. I think 2016, that kind of cleared the air. They're not going to do their own cloud or they have cloud efforts kind of solidifies that. And then incomes, Kubernetes, and then you saw a completely different cloud native wave coming in with the Tanzu, the Heptio acquisition. And since then a lot's been done. Can you just take us through the Tanzu evolution because I think this is a cornerstone of what's happening right now. >> Yeah, that's a great question, John. I think that the emergence of Kubernetes as a common set of APIs that every cloud and almost every infrastructure agrees on was a huge one. And the way I talked to our clients about is that VMware is doing a couple of things in this space. The first is that we're recognizing that as an infrastructure or baking Kubernetes into every vSphere, be it vSphere on-prem, be it VMC on Amazon. You're just going to find Kubernetes is a big part of each year. So that's kind of a big step one, but it's in some ways the same way that Amazon is doing with EKS and Azure is doing with AKS, but like every infrastructure provider is bringing Kubernetes everywhere. And then that kind of unleashes this really exciting moment where you've got this global control plane that you can program to be your DevSecOps platform. And Kubernetes has this incredible model of extensibility where you can add CRDs and program, right against the Kubernetes APIs with your additional features and functions you want your DevSecOps pipeline. And so it's created this opportunity for Tanzu to kind of have then a global control plane, which we call Tanzu Mission Control to bring all of those Kubernetes running on different clouds together. And then the last thing that we'll talk about a little bit more is this Tanzu Application Platform, which is bringing a developer experience to Kubernetes. So that you're not always starting with what I like to say, like, oh, I have Git, I have Kubernetes, am I done? There's a lot more to the story than that. >> I want to get to this Tanzu Application Platform on EKS. I think that's a big story at VMware. We've seen that, but before we do that for the folks out there watching who are like, I'm now seeing this, whether they're young, new to the industry or enterprises who have replatforming or refactoring, trying to understand what is a modern application. So give us the definition in your words, what is a modern application? >> You know, John, it's a great question. And I tend to start with why and like, hey, how did we get here? And you, you and I both, I think, used to work for the bigger iron vendors back in the day. And we've seen the age of the big box Silicon Valley. I don't know, I worked at Sun just across the aisle here and basically we'd sell you a big box and then once or twice a year, you'd change the software on it. And so in a sense, like there was no chance to do user-oriented design or any of these things. Like you kind of got what you got and you hope to scale it. And then modern applications have been much more of the age of like what you might say, like Instagram or some of these modern apps that are very user-oriented and how you're changing that user interface that user design might change every week based on user feedback. And you're constantly using big data to adjust that modern app experience. And so modern apps to me are inherently iterative and inherently scalable and amenable to change. And that's where the 12 factor application manifesto was written, a blog was written a decade ago, basically saying here's how you can start to design apps to be constantly upgradable. So to me, modern apps, 12 of factors, one of them Kubernetes compatible, but the real point is that they should be flexible to be constantly iterated on maybe at least once a week at a minimum and designed and engineered to do that. And that takes them away from the old vertically scaled apps that kind of ran on 172 processors that you would infrequently update in the past. Those are what you might call like cloud apps. Is that helpful? >> Yeah, totally helpful. And by the way, those old iron vendors, they're now called the on-premise vendors and, you know, HPE, Dell and whatnot, IBM. But the thing about the cloud is, is that you have the true infrastructure as code happening. It's happened, it's happening, but faster and better and greater the goodness there. So you got DevSecOps, which is just DevOps with security. So DevSecOps is the standard now that everyone's shooting for. So what that means is I'm a developer, I just want to write code, the infrastructure got to work for me. So things like Lambda functions are all great things. So assuming that there's going to be this now programmable layer for developers just to do stuff. What is, in context to that need, what is the Tanzu Application Platform about and how does it work? >> Yeah, that's a great question, John. So once you have Kubernetes, you have this abundance of programmable, inner infrastructure resources. You can do almost anything with it, right? Like you can run machine learning workflows, you can run microservices, you can build APIs, you can import legacy apps to it, but it doesn't come out of the box with a set of application patterns and a set of controllers that are built for just, you know, modern apps. It comes with sort of a lot of flexibility and it expects you to understand a pretty broad surface area of APIs. So what we're doing is we're following in the footsteps of companies like Netflix and Uber, et cetera, all of which built kind of a developer platform on top of their Kubernetes infrastructure to say, here's your more templatized path to production. So you don't have to configure everything. You're just changing the right parts of the application. And we kind of go through three steps. The first is an application template that says, here's how to build a streaming app on Kubernetes, click here, and you'll get in your version control and we'll build a Kubernetes manifest for it. Two, is an automated containerization, which is we'll take your app and auto create a container for it so that we know it's secure and you can't make a mistake. And then three is that it will auto detect your application and build a Kubernetes deployment for it so that you can deploy it to Kubernetes in a reliable way. We're basically trying to reduce the burden on the developer from having to understand everything about Kubernetes, to really understanding their domain of the application. Does that make sense? >> Yeah, and this kind of is inline, you mentioned Netflix early on. They were one of the pioneers in inside AWS, but they had the full hyperscaler developers. They had those early hardcore devs that are like unicorns. No, you can't hire these people. They're just not many enough in the world. So the world's becoming, I won't say democratization, that's an overused word, but what we're getting to is if I get this right, you're saying you're going to eliminate the heavy lifting, the boring mundane stuff. >> Yeah, even at Netflix as is great of a developers they have, they still built kind of a microservices or an application platform on top of AWS. And I think that's true of Kubernetes today, which if you go to a Kubernetes conference, you'll often see, don't expose Kubernetes to developers. So tons of application platforms starts to really solve that question. What do you expose to a developer when they want to consume Kubernetes? >> So let's ask you, I know you do a lot of customer visits, that's one of the jobs that make you go out in the field which you like doing and working backwards on the customers has been in the DNA of VMware for years. What is the big narrative with the customers? What's their pain point? How else has the pandemics shown them projects that are working and not working, and they want to come out of it with a growth strategy. VMware is now an independent company. You guys got the platform, what are the customers doing with it? >> Well, I'll give you one example. You know, I went out and I was chatting with the retailer, had seen their online sales goes from one billion to like three billion during the pandemic. And they had been using kind of packaged shopping cart software before like a basic online store that they bought and configured. And they realized they needed to get great at modern apps to keep up with customer demand. And so I would say in general, we've seen the drive, the need for modern apps and digital transformation is just really skyrocketing and everyone's paying attention to it. And then I think they're looking for a trusted partner and they're debating, do we build it all in-house or do we turn to a partner that can help us build this above the cloud? And I think for the people that want an enterprise trusted brand, they'll have a lot of engineering talent behind it. There's been strong interest in Tanzu. And I think the big message we're trying to get out is that Tanzu can not only help you in your on-prem infrastructure, but it can also really help you on public cloud. And I think people are surprised by just how much. >> It's just in the common thread. I see that it's that point is right on is that these companies that don't digitize their business and build an application for their customer are going to get taken away by a startup. I mean, we've seen, it's so easy if you don't have an app for that, you're out of business. I mean, this is like, no, no, it's not like maybe we should do the cloud, let's get proactive. Pretty much it's critical path now for companies. So I'm sure you agree with that, but what's the progress of most of the enterprises? What percentage do you think are having this realization? >> I would say at least 70, 80%, if not more, are there now, and 10 years ago, I used to kind of have to tell stories, like, you know, some startups going to come along and they might disrupt you and people kind of give you that like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I get it. And now it's sort of like, hey, someone's already in our market with an API. Tell me how to build API first apps we need to compete. And that's the difference in the strategic conversation kind of post pandemic and post, you know, the last 10 years. >> All right, final question for you 'cause this is right great thread. I've seen having a web interface it's not good enough, to your point. You got to have an application that they're engaging with, with all the modern capabilities, because the needs there, the expectation for the customers there. What new things are you seeing beyond mobile that are coming around the pike for enterprises, obviously web to mobile, mobile to what? What's next? >> I think the thing that's interesting is there is a bigger push to say more and more of what we do should be an API both internally, like, hey, other teams might want to consume some of these services as a well-formed API. I call it kind of like Stripe MB. Like you look at all these companies, they're like, Hey, stripes worth a hundred billion dollars now because they built a great API. What about us? And so I've seen a lot of industries from automotive to of course financial services and others that are saying, what if we gave our developers internally great APIs? And what if we also expose those APIs externally, we could get a lot, a more rat, fast moving business than the traditional model we might've had in the past. >> It's interesting, you know, commoditizing and automating a way infrastructure or software or capable workflows is actually normal. And if you can unify that in a way that's just better I mean, you have a lower cost structure, but the value doesn't go away, right? So I think a lot of this comes down to, beauty's in the eye of the beholder. I mean, that's how DevSecOps works. I mean, it's agile, it's faster, but you still have to achieve the value of the net is lower cost. What's your take on that? >> Well, I think you're dead right, John. And I think this is what was surprising about Stripe is it was possible before Stripe to go out as a developer and kind of pulled together a backend that did payments, but boy, it was hard. And I think that's the same thing with kind of this tons of application platform and the developer experience focus is people are realizing they can't hire enough developers. So this is the other thing that's happened during the pandemic and the great resignation, if you will, the war for talent is on. And you know, when I talked to a customer, like we might be able to help you, even 30% with your developer productivity, there's like one out of four developers. You might not have to be able to have to recruit they're all in. And so I think that API first model and the developer experience model are the same thing, which is like, it doesn't have to just be possible. It should be excellent. >> Well, great insight learning a lot. Of course, we should move to theCube API and we'll plug into your applications. We're here in the studio with our API, James. Great to have you on. Final word, what's your take this, the big story for re:Invent. If you had to summarize this year's re:Invent going in to 2022, what would you say is happening in this industry right now? >> You know, I'm just super excited about the EKS market and how fast it's growing. We're seeing EKS in a lot of places. We're super excited about helping EKS customers scale. And I think it's great to see Amazon adopting that standard API from Kubernetes. And I think that's going to be, just awesome to watch the creativity the industry is going to have around it. >> Well, great insight, thanks for coming on. And again, we'll work on that Cube API for you. The virtualization of theCUBE is here. We're virtual, which we could be in-person and hope to see you in-person soon. Thanks for coming on. >> You too John, thank you. >> Okay, Cube's coverage of alias re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Santa Clara, in the heart of Silicon Valley, it's theCUBE. Covering Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. Brought to you by the Cloud Foundry Foundation and Pivotal. >> Welcome back. I'm Stu Miniman, joined by my cohost John Troyer. Happy to welcome back to the program, friend of theCUBE, James Watters SVP of Product at Pivotal. James, great to see you, and thanks for helping to get theCUBE to Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Yeah, I was just saying, this is the first time theCUBE is at CF Summit, so we're official now. We're all grown up. We're out in the daylight and you know you made it when theCUBE shows up, so excited to have you here. >> Absolutely. So a lot of things going on. We had Chip on talking about some of the big announcements. >> James: Yeah. >> From Pivotal's standpoint, what's some of the important milestones in releases happening. >> Yeah, I think in the simplest terms, the big new thing came out of our collaboration with Google is called Kubo, which is Kubernetes on BOSH. And I think that was a big move that got a lot of applause in the keynote when it was announced yesterday. And I think it shows two things. One is that Cloud Foundry really is going to embrace multiple ways of deploying artifacts and managing things, and that we're really the cloud native platform and willing to embrace container abstractions, app abstractions, data abstractions pretty uniquely, which is, there hasn't been another platform out there that embraces those with specialized ways of doing them. And I'm really excited about the customer response to that approach. >> Yeah, James, help us unpack that a little bit. So we look at the term seems this year, everybody, it's multi-cloud, we're all talking back-- >> James: Yeah. >> I think back to the days when we talked about platform as a service. One of the pieces was, oh, well, I should be able to have my application and move lots of places. That's what I heard when I talked about Cloud Foundry. When Docker came out everybody was like, oh PAS's dead, Docker's going to do this. When Kubernetes came out, oh wait, this takes the core value of what platform as a service has done. And today you're saying Kubo, Cloud Foundry, and Kubernetes with some BOSH, pulling it all together. Walk us through, 'cause it's nuanced. And there's pieces of that. So help us understand. >> Yeah, I like to say that even though sometimes you have open source communities have their own sense of identity, there's really not a god abstraction in cloud programming. Like there's not one abstraction that does it all. The simplest way you can see that is that people are interested in function as a service today. They're also interested in container as a service. Well, those two are not, they're not compatible. Right, like you don't deploy your whole Docker image to Amazon Lambda, but people are interested in both of those. And then, at the same time, there's this hyper growth of Spring Boot, which is, I think, the most efficient way of doing Java programming in the cloud, which is really at the core of our app abstraction. And so we see people, there's hyper growth, and function as a service, app as a service, especially with Spring Boot, and then also container. And I think the approach that we've had is beause there's not one god abstraction, that our platform needs to embrace all of those. And that actually, it's pretty intuitive, once you start using them, and you get beyond the slides and the buzz words. When to use one versus the other. And I think that's what users have been really excited about, is that Pivotal and Cloud Foundry communities embraced kind of that breadth, in terms of, different approaches to cloud native. Does that make sense to you, John? >> Yeah it's starting to, right? A lot of people like to do all or nothing about everything, right? >> James: Yeah. >> It's all going to be, we're going to be serverless by next year. And that doesn't make any sense at all. >> James: That's right. >> And so you have multiple programming models, like you said, multiple different kinds of abstractions, so when would somebody want to use, say containers, as a service, or container orchestration, versus some of the other application models. >> Yeah, it's a really, really great question. And I just had a really productive customer meeting this morning, where we went through that. They had some no-JS developers, that they said, look, these developers just want to get their code to production. They don't want to think about systems, they don't want to think about operating systems, they don't want to think about clusters. They're just like, here's my app, run it for me. And that's the core trick that Cloud Foundry's done the best of any platform in the world, which is CF Push, and so, for a no-JS developer, here's my app, run it for me, load balance it, health management, log aggregate it, give me quotas on my memory usage, everything. That's a good example of that. Then, they also had a team that was deploying Elasticsearch and some packaged applications. And they needed the level of control that Kubernetes in terms of pods, co-location, full control of a system image, the ability to do networking in certain ways, the ability to control storage. And you don't just take Elasticsearch and say here's my Elasticsearch tarball, run it for me. You actually start to set up a system, and that's where Kubernetes container as a service is perfect. Then the other question is how do you stitch those together, and you've seen the Kubernetes community adopt the Service broker API, the open Service Broker API out of Cloud Foundry, as a common way of saying, oh, I have an Elasticsearch over here, but I want to bind it to an application. Well, they use the CF services API. I think it's early days, but there's actually a coherent fabric forming across these different approaches, and it's also immediately intuitive. Like we didn't know, when we first conceived of adding Kubo to the mix, we didn't know what the educational level of education we have to provide, but it's been intuitive to every client I've talked so far, so that's fun for me to watch you say a few words like, oh, we get it. Yeah, we use that for this and this for this. >> All right, James, I have to up-level it a little bit, there. >> James: Little deep? >> You travel way more than I do. We kind of watch on social media. Prove me wrong, but i can't imagine when you're talking in the C-suite of a Fortune 100, pick your financial, or insurance company, that they are immersed in the languages and platform discussions that the hoodie crowd is. So where are you having those discussions? >> James: Yeah. >> One of the things, I come into the show and say Pivotal and Cloud Foundry are helping customers with that whole digital transformation. >> James: We are. >> And making that reality. So help us with that disconnect of, I'm down in the weeds trying to build this very complex stack, and the C-suite says, I want to be faster. >> I'll tell you what the C-suite has to solve. They've got to solve two things. One is they've got to deliver faster and more efficiently than ever before. That's their language, and our core app abstraction has been killer for digital transformation. Deliver apps faster, find your value line, and approach problems that way. They get that. That's why we've been succeeding economically, that's been a bit hit. But they also have another problem is, they want to retain talent, and when they're trying to retain talent some of those times, those folks are saying, well, we want little bit more control. We want to be able to use a container if we want, or think about something like Spring Cloud Data Flow to do high-end pipelines. And so they do care about having a partner in Pivotal and in Cloud Foundry, they can embrace those new trends. Because they've got to be able to not be completely top down in how they're enabling their organizations, while also encouraging efficiency. And so that's where the message of multiple abstractions really hits home for them, because they don't always want to referee some of the emerging trends and tech, and telling their team what they have to use. So by providing function, app, container, and data service, we can be the one partner that doesn't force that a priori in the discussion. Does that make sense? >> Is there friction ever, when saying, okay here, we've got this platform that actually is rather opinionated versus, hey, go choose everything open source and do whatever you want. I think that there's political boundaries between different parts of organization, this is a lot of what DevOps, I think, as a movement has been so important. Which is saying actually, you need to blur the political boundaries in the organization to get to faster end-to-end throughput and collaboration. So I think that's definitely a reality. At the same time, the ability that we've had to embrace these different approaches allows the level of empowerment that I think is appropriate. Like I think what we've been trying to do is not necessarily cater to a free-for-all, we've been saying, what are the right tools in the tool chest that people need to get their job done. So I think that's been very warmly received. So I guess I'd say that hasn't been a big problem for us. >> I want to ask you about the ecosystem. I think back when the ecosystem started, IBM, HPE, Cisco were big players. I come in this week, and it's Google Cloud, Microsoft Cloud, and Pivotal still is, last time I checked it was what, 70% of the code base created by Pivotal. >> James: I think it's 60 or 55 now. >> The change in the ecosystem what that means, and what that means to kind of open source, open core. >> Yeah, so I think in addition to the Kubo work that we've done, the other big news this week is that Microsoft joined the Cloud Foundry Foundation. So, essentially the largest software company in the world-- >> Wait, wait, Microsoft loves open source, I hear. Did you hear that one? >> They do. >> I know, it's still shocking for a lot of us that have known Microsoft for a long time, don't you think? And I'm not trying to be facetious, they totally are involved, I've talked to lots of Microsoft people. Kudos to them, they're doing a really good job. Even if I look at the big cloud guys and throw in VMware in there, Microsoft is one of the leaders in participating and embracing open source. >> They are and I think Corey Sanders, who got on stage, announced this, he leads the Azure virtual machine service, and a lot of the other Azure services for them, I think that their strategy is they want to run every workload. Like if you talk to Corey about it, he's like, you got workload, we want to be your partner. And I think that's been the change at Microsoft, is once you go into cloud, it's sort of like Pivotal embracing multiple program abstractions, right, once you have a platform you want as much critical mass on it as you can. And I think that's really helped Microsoft embrace the open source community in a very pragmatic way. Because they are a business, a company, right? And I think open source is required to do business in software these days, right, like in a way that it wasn't 10 years ago. As you look at your customer set and multi-cloud, right? From the very beginning multi-cloud was baked into the concept of Cloud Foundry. Like you said, just push, right? >> James: Yeah. >> So what do you see as common patterns? We've talked to folks already who, on-prem. Obviously, you all are running your CF service in partnership, your main one, your partnership with Google, You work with Amazon, what do you see in customer base, right? >> Yeah, so, let me just share a little bit from a good customer. This is a prospect conversation more, like someone who's starting the journey. They were currently running on-prem, on an OpenStack environment, which had some cost of maintenance for them. They were considering also using their vServer environment, to maybe not have to do as much customization of OpenStack. But there were certain geographies that they wanted to get into. They didn't want to build data centers. And what they were confronting was, they'd have to go learn networking and app management on a couple different clouds they wanted to use. And what they liked about our CF Fabric, across that, was that they said, oh, this is one operating model for any of those clouds. And that's the pattern that we see is that companies want to have one cloud operating model while there's five major cloud players today. So like how do those two forces in the market combine? And I think that's where multi-cloud becomes powerful. It's not necessarily multi-cloud for it's own sake, but it is the idea that you can engage and use multiple resources from these different data center providers without having to completely change your whole organization around it. Because taking on, how you run vServer versus OpenStack is different, as you know, right? >> Right, right, and talking about change, right? You and I were together at VMware when you launched this thing. >> James: Yeah. >> And there was a profound kind of conceptual chasm to leap for the VMware operators to figure out what was going on here. >> James: Yeah. >> So in this new world of services operation in multi-cloud, how are you seeing people, how's the adoption going, you just launched, or the foundation's launched its new certification stuff, can you talk a little bit about the new skill set needed, or how you're seeing people, the people formerly known as sys admins are now actually doing cloud operations. >> Well, I'm not sure if you saw Pat Gelsinger's announcement at Dell World, Dell EMC World, about developer-ready infrastructure. And I think this is a critical evolution that our partnership with VMware is more important than ever. Which is they're now saying all of these people that have been doing traditional system administration, you need to now offer developer-ready infrastructure. And this is an infrastructure that all the networking and network micro segmentation rules need to be there, all of the great things that the VMware admins have provided before needs to be there, but it needs to be turnkey for a developer. That developer shouldn't just get what we had and 2009, when you and I were working there together, which is like, here's a virtual machine, go build the rest of the environment. It should look more like, here's my application, run it for me. Here's my container, run it for me. And so what we're seeing is a lot of people upping their game now. To say, oh, the new thing is providing these services for developers 'cause that ties into digital transformation, ties into what the business is doing, ties into productivity. So I'm seeing a Renaissance of sys admins having a whole new set of tools. So that makes me excited. And one of the cool things we're seeing, I'd love to get your opinion on this is, this cool operating ratio of, we've had our clients present. Their administers of Cloud Foundry instances are able to run tens of thousands of apps in containers with two to four to five people. And so now they've got this super power, which is like, hey bring as many of the applications as the business needs to me. I can go run 10,000 app containers with a small team of people with a good lifestyle. To me, that's actually kind of incredible to see that leverage. >> Yeah, I think it's a huge shift, right? 'Cause you aren't setting up the VLANs and the micro segmentation and the rest of the stuff. >> Yeah, it's not all by hand, and so now the idea with our NSX partnership, is I'm really excited about, fun to talk to you about it. We used to work in Building E and have lunch out there, is that when you provision a CF app, we're working with the NSX team that all the segmentation will align with the app permissions. And this is a big deal, because it used to be that the network team and the app team didn't really have a good conduit of communication. So now it's like, okay I'm going to bind my app to this data service. I want NSX to make sure that permission is followed. To me, that's going to be a revolution of getting the app, and the DevOps teams and the networking teams to work together, clearly. So I'm pumped about that. >> Running low on time. A couple of quick questions about Pivotal. Number one is, now that you're doing Kubo, could we expect to see Pivotal join the CNCF? So EMC is is joining the CNCF. We have friendly relations with the CNCF, I don't think that's at all out of the cards. I just know current, I don't have any news on that today. But we've been very friendly with them, and we started working with Google on that, so no immediate plans there, but we'd be open to that, I believe. >> Okay, and secondly, my understanding, the last announcement on revenue, you can't speak to the IPO or anything, James, above your pay grade, but $275 million in billing on PCF, did I get that right? What do you see is kind of the mix of how you're revenued, are you a software company, a services company? The big data versus the cloud piece. How do we look at Pivotal going forward? >> Yeah, what'd I say is I primarily oversee the Cloud Foundry portion of what we do. And services are an incredibly important part of our mix, Pivotal labs. When you think about this developer-ready infrastructure tend, like a lot of the way you organize your developers can change too. So we talked about how the sys admins jobs change. They gets this platform scale, well the developer's job has changed now, too. They have to learn how to do CICD, they've got to learn how to potentially turn around agile requirements from the business on a weekly basis versus every six months. So Pivotal labs has certainly been critical to that mix for us. But PCF in and of itself, has been a very successful software business. And I think, I believe can grow into the billions of dollars a year in software, and that's what kind of keeps me excited about every day. >> All right, James, I want to give you the final word. You speak to so many customers. >> James: A few. >> The whole digital transformation thing, what are you seeing? How do we help customers along that moving faster. >> That's a, it's a big topic. And the thing that's really interesting about what PCF does is, that it helps people change their organizations, not just their technology. And this has certainly happened in the vServer environment, right? Like it would change your organization, but we're even going higher, which is like, how are your developers organized? How operating teams organize. How you think about security. How you think about patching. Like the reason why I agree that it's transformative, is that it's not just a change of technology, it's these new technologies allow you to rebuild your organization end-to-end, of how it delivers business results. And that makes it both a humbling and an exciting time to be in the industry, because I personally, don't have all the answers every time. People ask about organizations and what to do there. Those are complex issues, but I think we've tried to partner with them to go on that journey together. >> Unfortunately, James, we're going to have to leave it there. We will definitely catch up with you at many more events later this year. And we'll be back with more coverage here from the Cloud Foundry Summit 2017. You're watching theCUBE. (techno music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's continuous coverage of AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We're here with James Watters, CTO of Modern Applications at VMware here to talk about the big Tanzu cloud native application wave, the modernization's here. James, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Hey John, great to have you back on. And really excited about re:Invent this year. And I've been watching your coverage of it. There's lots of exciting stuff going on in this space. >> Awesome. Well, James, you've been riding the wave of, I would call cloud 1.0, 2.0 what do you want to call it, the initial wave of cloud where the advent of replatforming is there. You know all these benefits and things are moving fast. Things are being developed. A lot of endeavors, things are tracking. Some are kicking, Kubernetes kicks in, and now the big story is over the past year and a half. Certainly the pandemic highlighted is this big wave that's hitting now, which is the real, the modernization of the enterprise, the modernization of software development. And even Amazon was saying that in one of our talks that the sovereign life cycles over it should be completely put away to bed. And that DevOps is truly here. And you add security, you got DevSecOps. So an entirely new, large scale, heavy use of data, new methodologies are all hitting right now. And if you're not on that wave your driftwood, what's your take? >> Oh, I think you're dead John, and you know, kind of the first 10 years of working on this for sort of proving that the microservices, the container, the declared of automation, the DevOps patterns were the future. And I think everyone's agreed now. And I think DevSecOps and the trends around app modernization are really around bringing that to scale for enterprises. So the conversations I tend to be having are, Hey, you've done a little Kubernetes. You've done some modern apps and APIs, but how do you really scale this across your enterprise? That's what I think is excited today. And that's what we're talking about. Some of the tools we're bringing to Amazon to help people achieve faster, consumption, better scale, more security. >> You know, one of the things about VMware that's been impressive over the years is that on the wave of IT, they already had great operational install base. They did a deal with Amazon Ragu did that. I think 2016, that kind of cleared the air. They're not going to do their own cloud or they have cloud efforts kind of solidifies that. And then incomes, Kubernetes, and then you saw a completely different cloud native wave coming in with the Tanzu, the Heptio acquisition. And since then a lot's been done. Can you just take us through the Tanzu evolution because I think this is a cornerstone of what's happening right now. >> Yeah, that's a great question, John. I think that the emergence of Kubernetes as a common set of APIs that every cloud and almost every infrastructure agrees on was a huge one. And the way I talked to our clients about is that VMware is doing a couple of things in this space. The first is that we're recognizing that as an infrastructure or baking Kubernetes into every vSphere, be it vSphere on-prem, be it BMC on Amazon. You're just going to find Kubernetes is a big part of each year. So that's kind of a big step one, but it's in some ways the same way that Amazon is doing with EKS and Azure EKS, but like every infrastructure provider is bringing Kubernetes everywhere. And then that kind of unleashes this really exciting moment where you've got this global control plane that you can program to be your DevSecOps platform. And Kubernetes has this incredible model of extensibility where you can add CRDs and program, right against the Kubernetes APIs with your additional features and functions you want your DevSecOps pipeline. And so it's created this opportunity for Tanzu to kind of have then a global control plan, which we call Tanzu Mission Control to bring all of those Kubernetes running in different clouds together. And then the last thing that we'll talk about a little bit more is this Tanzu Application Platform, which is bringing a developer experience to Kubernetes. So that you're not always starting with what I like to say, like, oh, I have Kubernetes, am I done? There's a lot more to the story than that. >> I want to get to this Tanzu Application Platform on EKS. I think that's a big story at VMware. We've seen that, but before we do that for the folks out there watching who are like, I'm now seeing this, whether they're young, new to the industry or enterprises who have replatforming or refactoring, trying to understand what is a modern application. So give us the definition in your words, what is a modern application? >> You know, John, it's a great question. And I tend to start with why and like, hey, how did we get here? And you, you and I both, I think, used to work for the bigger iron vendors back in the day. And we've seen the age of the big box Silicon Valley. I don't know, I worked at Sun just across the aisle here and basically we'd sell you a big box and then once or twice a year, you'd change the software on it. And so in a sense, like there was no chance to do user-oriented design or any of these things. Like you kind of got what you got and you hope to scale it. And then modern applications have been much more of the age of like what you might say, like Instagram or some of these modern apps that are very user-oriented and how you're changing that user interface that user design might change every week based on user feedback. And you're constantly using big data to adjust that modern app experience. And so modern apps to me are inherently iterative and inherently scalable and amenable to change. And that's where the 12 factor application manifesto was written, a blog was written a decade ago, basically saying here's how you can start to design apps to be constantly upgradable. So to me, modern apps, 12 of factors, one of them Kubernetes compatible, but the real point is that they should be flexible to be constantly iterated on maybe at least once a week at a minimum and designed and engineered to do that. And that takes them away from the old vertically scaled apps that kind of ran on 172 processors that you would infrequently update in the past. Those are what you might call like cloud apps. Is that helpful? >> Yeah, totally helpful. And by the way, those old iron vendors, they're now called the on-premise vendors and, you know, HPE, Dell and whatnot, IBM. But the thing about the cloud is, is that you have the true infrastructure as code happening. It's happened, it's happening, but faster and better and greater the goodness there. So you got DevSecOps, which is just DevOps with security. So DevSecOps is the standard now that everyone's shooting for. So what that means is I'm a developer, I just want to write code, the infrastructure got to work for me. So things like Lambda functions are all great things. So assuming that there's going to be this now programmable layer for developers just to do stuff. What is, in context to that need, what is the Tanzu Application Platform about and how does it work? >> Yeah, that's a great question, John. So once you have Kubernetes, you have this abundance of programmable, inner infrastructure resources. You can do almost anything with it, right? Like you can run machine learning workflows, you can run microservices, you can build APIs, you can import legacy apps to it, but it doesn't come out of the box with a set of application patterns and a set of controllers that are built for just, you know, modern apps. It comes with sort of a lot of flexibility and it expects you to understand a pretty broad surface area of APIs. So what we're doing is we're following in the footsteps of companies like Netflix and Uber, et cetera, all of which built kind of a developer platform on top of their Kubernetes infrastructure to say, here's your more templatized path to production. So you don't have to configure everything. You're just changing the right parts of the application. And we kind of go through three steps. The first is an application template that says, here's how to build a streaming app on Kubernetes, click here, and you'll get in your version control and we'll build a Kubernetes manifest for it. Two, is an automated containerization, which is we'll take your app and auto create a container for it so that we know it's secure and you can't make a mistake. And then three is that it will auto detect your application and build a Kubernetes deployment for it so that you can deploy it to Kubernetes in a reliable way. We're basically trying to reduce the burden on the developer from having to understand everything about Kubernetes, to really understanding their domain of the application. Does that make sense? >> Yeah, and this kind of is inline, you mentioned Netflix early on. They were one of the pioneers in inside AWS, but they had the full hyperscaler developers. They had those early hardcore devs that are like unicorns. No, you can't hire these people. They're just not many enough in the world. So the world's becoming, I won't say democratization, that's an overused word, but what we're getting to is if I get this right, you're saying you're going to eliminate the heavy lifting, the boring mundane stuff. >> Yeah, even at Netflix as is great of a developers they have, they still built kind of a microservices or an application platform on top of AWS. And I think that's true of Kubernetes today, which if you go to a Kubernetes conference, you'll often see, don't expose Kubernetes to developers. So tons of application platforms starts to really solve that question. What do you expose to a developer when they want to consume Kubernetes? >> So let's ask you, I know you do a lot of customer visits, that's one of the jobs that make you go out in the field which you like doing and working backwards on the customers has been in the DNA of VMware for years. What is the big narrative with the customers? What's their pain point? How else has the pandemics shown them projects that are working and not working, and they want to come out of it with a growth strategy. VMware is now an independent company. You guys got the platform, what are the customers doing with it? >> Well, I'll give you one example. You know, I went out and I was chatting with the retailer, had seen their online sales goes from one billion to like three billion during the pandemic. And they had been using kind of packaged shopping cart software before like a basic online store that they bought and configured. And they realized they needed to get great at modern apps to keep up with customer demand. And so I would say in general, we've seen the drive, the need for modern apps and digital transformation is just really skyrocketing and everyone's paying attention to it. And then I think they're looking for a trusted partner and they're debating, do we build it all in-house or do we turn to a partner that can help us build this above the cloud? And I think for the people that want an enterprise trusted brand, they'll have a lot of engineering talent behind it. There's been strong interest in Tanzu. And I think the big message we're trying to get out is that Tanzu can not only help you in your on-prem infrastructure, but it can also really help you on public cloud. And I think people are surprised by just how much. >> It's just in the common thread. I see that it's that point is right on is that these companies that don't digitize their business and build an application for their customer are going to get taken away by a startup. I mean, we've seen, it's so easy if you don't have an app for that, you're out of business. I mean, this is like, no, no, it's not like maybe we should do the cloud, let's get proactive. Pretty much it's critical path now for companies. So I'm sure you agree with that, but what's the progress of most of the enterprises? What percentage do you think are having this realization? >> I would say at least 70, 80%, if not more, are there now, and 10 years ago, I used to kind of have to tell stories, like, you know, some startups going to come along and they might disrupt you and people kind of give you that like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I get it. And now it's sort of like, hey, someone's already in our market with an API. Tell me how to build API first apps we need to compete. And that's the difference in the strategic conversation kind of post pandemic and post, you know, the last 10 years. >> All right, final question for you 'cause this is right great thread. I've seen having a web interface it's not good enough, to your point. You got to have an application that they're engaging with, with all the modern capabilities, because the needs there, the expectation for the customers there. What new things are you seeing beyond mobile that are coming around the pike for enterprises, obviously web to mobile, mobile to what? What's next? >> I think the thing that's interesting is there is a bigger push to say more and more of what we do should be an API both internally, like, hey, other teams might want to consume some of these services as a well-formed API. I call it kind of like Stripe MB. Like you look at all these companies, they're like, Hey, stripes worth a hundred billion dollars now because they built a great API. What about us? And so I've seen a lot of industries from automotive to of course financial services and others that are saying, what if we gave our developers internally great APIs? And what if we also expose those APIs externally, we could get a lot, a more rat, fast moving business than the traditional model we might've had in the past. >> It's interesting, you know, commoditizing and automating a way infrastructure or software or capable workflows is actually normal. And if you can unify that in a way that's just better I mean, you have a lower cost structure, but the value doesn't go away, right? So I think a lot of this comes down to, beauty's in the eye of the beholder. I mean, that's how DevSecOps works. I mean, it's agile, it's faster, but you still have to achieve the value of the net is lower cost. What's your take on that? >> Well, I think you're dead right, John. And I think this is what was surprising about Stripe is it was possible before Stripe to go out as a developer and kind of pulled together a backend that did payments, but boy, it was hard. And I think that's the same thing with kind of this tons of application platform and the developer experience focus is people are realizing they can't hire enough developers. So this is the other thing that's happened during the pandemic and the great resignation, if you will, the war for talent is on. And you know, when I talked to a customer, like we might be able to help you, even 30% with your developer productivity, there's like one out of four developers. You might not have to be able to have to recruit they're all in. And so I think that API first model and the developer experience model are the same thing, which is like, it doesn't have to just be possible. It should be excellent. >> Well, great insight learning a lot. Of course, we should move to theCube API and we'll plug into your applications. We're here in the studio with our API, James. Great to have you on. Final word, what's your take this, the big story for re:Invent. If you had to summarize this year's re:Invent going in to 2022, what would you say is happening in this industry right now? >> You know, I'm just super excited about the EKS market and how fast it's growing. We're seeing EKS in a lot of places. We're super excited about helping EKS customers scale. And I think it's great to see Amazon adopting that standard API from Kubernetes. And I think that's going to be, just awesome to watch the creativity the industry is going to have around it. >> Well, great insight, thanks for coming on. And again, we'll work on that Cube API for you. The virtualization of theCUBE is here. We're virtual, which we could be in-person and hope to see you in-person soon. Thanks for coming on. >> You too John, thank you. >> Okay, Cube's coverage of alias re:Invent 2021. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, its theCUBE. Covering Dell EMC World 2017, brought to you by Dell EMC. >> Welcome back everyone, we are here live in Las Vegas for a wrap up on day three of three days of wall-to-wall coverage with theCUBE coverage at Dell EMC World, our eighth year covering EMC World Now, first year covering Dell EMC World. It's part of the big story of Dell and EMC combining entities, forming Dell Technologies, all those brands. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE. My co-hosts this week, Paul Gillin and Keith Townsend, CTO Advisor. Guys, great week, I thought I'd be wrecked at this point. But, I mean, a lot of energy here but we heard every story. We heard all the commentary, we heard the EMC people trotting in, about their customer references. We hear the executives on message. Bottom line, let's translate it for everybody. (laughing) All the messaging, pretty tight. >> Yes. >> All singing the same songs. My take away real quickly on messaging, they want to portray that this is all good. Everything's fine. No icebergs ahead. We are going to help customers try to move from speeds to feeds, a bigger message. Not getting there yet. Still speeds and feeds. 14 (mumbles), 14G, that's kind of the high level, thoughts? >> This company wants to dominate. I mean, what we heard again and again these last few days is number one, number one. They want to own the top market share in every market in which they play, and they have a broad array of products to do that. They have a huge mix of products, maybe too many products, but with some overlap, but that's okay, but they clearly are trying to blanket or carpet bomb those markets where they think they can win. Interestingly, there are some markets like big data, like software or cloud infrastructure where they are choosing not to be a big player, and that's okay too. It means they are focused. >> John: Keith, your thoughts. >> So, again, I agree with you, tight marketing. They wanted to get out this message. I think if the present analysts get together at the beginning, they emphasized 310 analysts, from analysts and press, from all over the world. They get out the message. They get these guys and gals in here to cover that message that Dell Technologies, Dell EMC, is the leader in this space. You know what? When big mergers like this happen, I can't think of one that happened well. They are usually rocky to begin with. We haven't seen those rocks at the beginning. We haven't see that at the show. It seems like the messaging has been consistent, the customers more or less get it, and that we can't detect the chinks in the armor, so I think they did a great job of getting that out there, and portraying the stress of the brand, and throughout the show. It was a great show for them. >> They have a good story. Their story better together, obviously that's the whole theme. My impression is, in weaving through all the messaging, is generally, authentically the people are pretty happy with it. I think EMC people have been trying to break out of this, we're a storage company, you know, and I won't say they had a little bit of VMware envy, but VM World events were always different than the EMC World, so those culture clashes weren't necessarily too divergent, but different. You had storage guys, and you had VMware developers, right, so I think EMC was always trying to break out and be bigger, and just couldn't get there. Dell wanted to be more enterprise, right, so I think the two together actually is better, in my opinion. Now will it work? I still think your post is still open. They merged for the right reasons, but look it, they're not done. They got a boat-load of work to do. >> I think they're aware, to Keith's point, they are aware that history is against them, that mega mergers don't work, never have worked in this industry, and so that creates a lot of pressure to make this one work, and the good thing about that for both companies is that they're aware of what went wrong in the past. I mean, we had Howard Elias on this show the first day. Howard Elias went through two of the worst tech mega mergers in history with Compaq Digital and HP Compaq, knows where a lot of those landmines are, so they seemed hyper aware of getting everyone on message, getting everyone talking positively about synergy, and as you said John, the language was consistent from the start. >> Alright, I want to ask you guys a pointed question on that point cause it kind of brings out the next question. Management team, do they have the chops, because, to your point, history's against them, okay? We sat down with Michael Dell, founder, lead entrepreneur, still at the helm. He's a billionaire. They're private, so no shot clock on the public markets. Marius Haas, he's a pro. Howard Elias, a pro. Goulden, he does his thing. On and on and on. I think they got a pretty deep bench. I mean, your thoughts guys? >> So, let's think about that. How many bad mergers has EMC gone through? Data domain >> Paul: Home run. >> Incredible. >> Paul: Home run. >> Home run. >> Paul: DSSD. >> DSSD, well, not so much, but that wasn't really that big of a merger. >> They kind of cleaned that up pretty quickly. >> Yeah, they did, what doesn't work they get it out quick, so great management team understands the complexities of mergers. VMware merger, or acquisition, probably one of the best in the history of tech, so the management team has the chops to understand where the value is added, extract that value, and expand it. >> That's a great point. And they know when to leave stuff alone too. >> John: Yeah, engineering lead but they're also, because we heard Jeff Boudreau on talking about the storage challenges. He's like, we know what to do, we took the lumps trying to, late to the game on Flash, we're not going to be late to the game in these other areas, and he is very hyper focused. But the other thing that we didn't talk about is that EMC has just been an impeccably, credible sales organization. They know how to sell, they know how to motivate sales people. They know how to tell the tell the enterprise sales motion, which is the biggest challenge in today's industry. Every company I talked to, startup to growing IPO is we need better enterprise sales. Look at Google. Look what they're doing in the cloud. They are struggling because they have great tech and horrid sales people. They are hiring young people doing phone work. Enterprise sales is a tricky game. >> Arguably the best enterprise sales force on the planet was EMC. I mean, these are the guys who would get on a plane at midnight, would charter a plane at midnight, to get to the customer's site to fix a problem, and no other company does it like that, and Dell has a lot to learn from that. If Dell can really take that knowledge and that culture and absorb it into their own enterprise sales force, they are going to have huge opportunity with their server division. >> I want to take a minute just to thank our sponsors for their awesome CUBE coverage. You guys did great. Dell EMC, Toshiba, Virtustream, Cisco, Dato, Nutanix, Druva, and VMware. Thanks to your support, we had two CUBEs covering VM World, 20 plus videos a day, for 3 straight days. All that's on youtube.com/siliconangle. Of course, siliconangle.com for all the journalism and reporting. Wikibon.com for all the great research, and also a shoutout to Keith at @CTOAdvisor. Check him out on Twitter, always part of the conversation, super influential. Guys, great job this week. Just high level marks. My take away? Hyper converge, big time focus on these guys. VMware is the glue, Hybrid Cloud, and they're defensively using Pivotal to hold the line on Amazon, so thoughts on that point? I see you rolling your eyes. >> I just got out with James Watters, the SVP within that business unit. Pivotal is a key part of this. You know Michael has stressed on theCUBE, on Twitter, how important Pivotal is to their long term success. One of Dell's challenges, Dell EMC's, and this is not just Dell EMC, it's infrastructure companies throughout the landscape, is getting out of that conversation with their VP of infrastructure, getting into the offices of the CIOs, COs, CMO, and having these business conversations, and it's going to take a Pivotal type of solution to get that done. I thought Michael made a very great point that that white glove services, that's basically their service organization, is basically the older EMC services organization that's used to getting on a flight, solving the problem. Whatever the original statement at work was, they are willing to tear that up, and get down, get dirty, and get that done. They need to translate that >> The question for you then is this, without Pivotal, they have no play for the app developers? >> Keith: None. >> Amazon would mop that up and they'd have no positions, so I would say it is certainly a placeholder, a good one, I'm not going to deny that. The question is how big is that market for them. Can they get there, can they hold the line on Pivotal and bring in some resources and cavalry to keep that going, thoughts? >> This is where VMware comes into play. VMware has the relationship with the software layer at least, and they have a great story to tell. They need to get in front of the right people and tell that story, that CrossCloud story of being able to develop using CF and then move that to any cloud using NSX. Great story, but John, to your point, they have to get into the right rooms and have the right conversations, >> Yeah. >> Keith: That's a tough thing to do. >> I also got to give them some time. I mean, this merger happened eight months ago. I think it's pretty remarkable what they have pulled off here in such a short time, and to think about the developers are probably not their first priority right now. >> Alright, so we are going to do the metadata segment of our wrap up, which I just made up since it's such a good name, metadata, in the spirit of surveillance. What metadata can you pull out of your interviews, guys, that's a tea leaf that we could read and just nuance points, I'll start. Pat Gelsinger talked about Pivotal sharing, in between the conversations kind of weaved in, yeah, we had to spin out Pivotal, but I could almost see it in his eyes, he didn't say it specifically, but he's like, we shouldn't have sold it, right? And they had to because he said he had to work on the foundational stuff, get NSX done, get that right, but you can almost see that now as, I'd like to bring that back in, although a separate company. To me, I find that a very interesting data point, that that actually makes a lot of sense to your point about VMware. That might be an interesting combination. Why take Pivotal public, roll it into VMware. >> Yeah, I think that is going to be a interesting space to watch over the next few months. VMware and Pivotal have started to once again come back together with solutions. This NSX, CrossCloud talk makes it very compelling. It's hard to predict Dell EMC being relevant long term. They understand the value short term. They have a short rope to take advantage of this cross selling between the Dell and EMC customer. They can grow this business, get revenue short term, but there will be a cliff where they need to make that transition. Cisco is trying to make that transition into a services company, a software company, and it's hard to turn down one knob and turn the other one up. We'll see if Pat, Michael Dell, and the team have the chops to get it done. >> Cisco has to endure the public markets while they are doing that, which is one advantage Dell has. >> Data point that you can extract that you take away from this? >> Synergy, synergy. I mean when two companies this big come together, you're looking at a lot of product line overlap. I came out of this, though, thinking that there really isn't that much product line overlap. You've got a company that's strong in the mid market, with the small companies, a company that's strong in the enterprise, storage, servers, not a lot of overlap there. The big question for me, so I think the synergy question is this merger makes sense from that perspective, and the big question is software, what are they going to do with those software assets, and to your point, the future is going to be, software defined everything, and that's not a story they're telling yet. >> Keith, extracted insight that you observed that was notable that you kind of picked out of the pile of the interviews. Anything notable to you? Something obscure that made you go, wow I didn't know that, oh that's a good piece of the puzzle to put together. >> You know what, just the scale of, you look at the merger, 57 billion dollars, and on paper you are like, okay that's interesting, but a lot of the numbers coming out, you know, we talked to the senior VP of marketing and he says, you know, my guys are making bank, actually that's to paraphrase him. You said that John, that they are making bank, and one of the things that I worried about was the culture, the sales culture between Dell and EMC. Dell sales culture, very web based, very, you know I had a Dell rep and there was not an awful lot of value add, EMC >> Paul: Value add. >> The value add, and those guys earned their money, and bringing those two together and making sure that customers don't miss a beat and still get that EMC value, but Dell is able to maintain that same cost structure, I thought that was a really complicated thing to do. It seems like they are executing really well on that, and I thought from a customer's perspective, you want your supplier to make money and you want it to not be too disruptive, but you know, you want to see some value. >> Great point, that was one of highlights of my take aways, Marius Haas' interview around sales and comp and structure. They are used to a lot of bank, those sales guys, and now it's like, hey we're going to give you a haircut, what? I was about to make a million dollars on commissions this year. >> This merger will not work unless the sales organization is in sync. >> Other notables for me, just that jumped out at me, that kind of made me go, that amplifies a point, that's memorable is Michael Dell's interview hits home the point of entrepreneur founder, lead guy, and there's only three left in the industry, Ellison, Dell, and Bezos, in my mind that are billionaires that are actively, not mailing it in, they are actively driving their business, have a great ethos and culture that is creating durability. I find that the key point for me, that was a moment. I think he does sell Pivotal a little too much, which gives me a little red flag, like hmm, why is he pushing Pivotal so much, what is he hiding, but that's a different story. Michael Dell, founder. Gelsinger shared some personal commentary around his personal life. 2016 was the hardest year of his life. >> Keith: That was a mean story. >> Personal and business. Almost got fired. Remember last year? >> Yeah. >> Pat Gelsinger, you're fired. So, he had a tough year, now he's kicking ass, taking names, evaluation's on the rise. That jumped out at me. And finally, the little nuance in this merger is the alliance opportunity. Dell had the Intel, wintel, Microsoft relationships from day one, that history, Intel was on stage. EMC's had it, but not at the deep level that Dell did. So I see the alliance teams really grooving here, so that's going to impact channel marketing, SIs. I think you are going to see a massive power base, to your scale point, around alliances in the industry, the ecosystem. It's either going to blow up big or blow up bad. Either way its high octane power, Intel. >> Keith: It is a big bet. >> It's a big bet. Those are my points. Anything that jumped out at you, final thoughts, interviews? >> Jeff Townsend threw off an interesting statistic, 70% of the traffic on the internet will be video by 2020. I never heard that one before, but that has some pretty interesting implications for how infrastructure has to manage it. >> Yeah, great for our business. We're doing video right now. Keith, anything that jumped out at you, anything else? >> The scale of this show compared to, I've been at Dell World, I've been to EMC World. The energy is different here. I can say that for sure, from the EMC Worlds and the Dell Worlds that I've been at. Customers, I think, are wide eyed. I've been to plenty of VM World's. It doesn't quite have the flavor of a VM World, but I think customers are starting to understand the scale of Dell EMC, the entire portfolio. You walk the show floor, you're like, wow I didn't know >> John: The relevance has increased. >> Just little bits of this larger Dell technologies that customers are picking up on, that they're keying on that there's value there. >> The 800 pound gorilla, the very relevant impact, people are taking notice. >> If you are a one product Dell customer or a one product EMC customer and you are coming to the show for the first time, I think you're a little bit wowed. >> Alright, guys, great job. Keith, great to have you host theCUBE. Great job, as always. Really appreciate you bringing the commentary to theCUBE. Great stuff. >> Always great being here. >> Paul, great editorial, great insight, great questions. Great to work with you guys. Great to the team. Thanks to our sponsors. Go to siliconangle.com, wikibon.com, and go to youtube.com/siliconeangle and check out all the videos and the playlists, more coverage, great. Thanks for watching our special coverage of Dell EMC World 2017. See you next time.