>> Live from Barcelona, Spain. It's the cue covering Sisqo, Live Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Sisqo. Live in Barcelona, Day Volant with my co host to Mina and you're watching the Cube, the leader in live coverage of Day one of a three day segments that we're doing here at Cisco Live. Barcelona Bread Hartmann is here is the CTO of Cisco Security Group and we think a Cube alum from way back, way, back way back. Great to see you again. Thanks for coming on. So we're gonna talk about workload security? What's that? What is working? What >> is workload security? So it's really the whole idea of how people secure applications today because applications aren't built the way they used to be. You know, it's not the idea that you have an application that's just sitting running on a server anymore. Applications are actually built out of lots of lots of components. Those components may run in a typical data center. They may run in the cloud. It may be part of a sass solution. So you got all these different components that need to be plugged together. So questions How do you possibly secure that when you have all these pieces? Containers, virtualized, workloads, all working together? That's the big question >> written often times by different people. >> Different people's services. Yeah, Matt Open source. Right. So all that somehow has to come together and you have to figure out how to secure. That's the question. >> So what did you used to do with applications? Securities Just kind of figured out the end and bolted on. >> Pretty much. I mean, yeah, historically, people would do their best to secure their application. It would be kind of monolithic, you know, or, you know, three tier yet of, you know, the Web here after your database, that sort of thing. And then you'd also depend a lot on the infrastructure. Depend on firewalls. You depend on thing's on the edge to protect the application. The problem is, there's not so much of an edge anymore. When in that world I described you can't really relies so much on that infrastructure anymore. That's the shift of the world. We know. >> Also, what's the prescription today? How do you solve that problem? >> You know, there's a lot of ad hoc work, and so this whole notion. A lot of people talk about Deb set cops these days, or sometimes it's, you know, Deb Opsec girl. But you know, there's always different versions of that. But the whole idea of the de bop swirl the way people build applications today and the security world, its security ops world are coming, either coming together are colliding or crashing, right? And so it's it's getting those things to work. So right now, the way Deb ops and SEC cops works today is not particularly well, a lot of manual work. Ah, a lot of kind of ad hoc scripts, but I will say probably over the last year, there's a lot more awareness than we need to figure this out. To be able to merge these two things together. That's kind of the next day. >> Print one. Wanna bring us inside that a little bit because if you, you know, listen to the Dev ops people. It's you know, we've got a new C i. C. We need to move fast. And there was the myth out there. Oh, well do and my faster or am I secure? And, you know, I was reading some research recently. And they said, Actually, that's a false tradeoff. Actually, you can move fast and be more secure. But you raised a risk because you said if these are two separate things and they're not working in lob stacked and it's not secure every step of the way in that part of your methodology, then you're definitely >> going to security exactly right. And there's a basic question of how much of a responsibility that developers have to provide security anyway. I mean, historically, we don't really necessarily trust developers to care that much about security. Now, as to your point these days, without, you know the way people develop software today, they need to care more about it. But typically it was the security operations. Folks that was their responsibility of developers could do whatever they wanted, and the security folks kept them safe. Well, again, as you said, you can't do that anymore. So the developers have to pull security into their development processes. >> Yeah, when I go to some of the container shows or the surveillance shows, the people in the security space are like chanting up on state security is everyone's responsibility. It hasn't traditionally been the >> case it has not. And so it's really work. What companies are working on now is how to the security operations people fit into that development process and what are the tools? And again, it's a long, complicated set of infrastructure and other sorts of tools. But that's sort of the point that Cisco we're really working on on evolving the security products and technologies. So exactly it fits into that process. That's the goal. >> So I'm sure there's a maturity Mahler or a spectrum. When you talk to customers, maybe we could poke it that a little bit sort of described that. So you're really just really talking about a world where it's team sport. The regime is everybody's gotta gotta be involved. But but oftentimes that, working for different people, someone working for the C e O. Maybe some the CTO from the sea so different companies contract, there's >> providers all >> that right partners. So so what is that spectrum look like? And how are you helping customers, you know, take that journey. >> So not surprisingly, companies that are born in the cloud they're like, This is old news. It's like, This is how they, how they deal with it every day. They A lot of those companies have lower risk deployments. Anyway, the organizations that are really early days on this, or the ones that have lots of existing investment and all that data center stuff, and they're trying to figure out how this is gonna work. You know, you talk to a typical bank, for example, you know, their core business processes of how they protect money. They're not going to move to the cloud, right? So how did they evolve? And they, by the way, they have to do with compliance requirements on all this other stuff they can't They can't play too fast and loose, so that's an example of something that's early days. But they are also working a lot in terms of Ah, evolving, moving to the cloud and having TTO be able to support that, too. >> So when you engage with with Cline, I presume you're tryingto assess kind of where they're at and then figure out where they want to go, and then how to best get him there. So, yeah, what is Cisco's role in helping him get? >> And so first of all, of course, I represent, you know, the business group that builds the security products, right? So a lot of this, and the reason why my group is so interested in this and and our security Francisco so interested is this really represents the future of security. This idea of having a much more embedded into the applications is supposed to purely being in the infrastructure. So what we're seeing for typical customers, like, if I roll the clock back a year ago and we talked about things like Deb set cops, they're like, Yeah, kind of an interesting problem. The one we just talked about what it's like, not quite ready for it now. This is, I think, every C so you know, chief security officer, I talked to very aware, have active engagements about how they're working with their nabobs groups and are actively seeking for tools and technology to support them. So to me, that's a good sign that it's you know, the world is moving in this direction, and as a security vendor, we need to evolve, too. So that means things like evolving the way firewalls work. For example, it's not just about firewall sitting at the edge. It means distributing firewall functionality. It means moving functionality into the public cloud like a Ws and Google and Azure. It means moving security up into the application itself. So it's a very different world than just a box sitting on the edge. That's that's the journey. And we're on that journey, too. And the industry is I mean, it's not a solve problem for exactly how to do >> that. If we go back to the early days were talking about, you know, that when the Cube started twenty ten, Security really wasn't a board level topic back then. >> It's at least not for every company. There's certainly company. Yeah, but not now. It's like you're right. Every company cares about it, >> right, and it comes up. But every quarterly knowing, you know, certainly every every annual meeting. Um, so So what? Should Sasha, the technical Seaside CEO CTO. If they're invited into the board meeting, how should they be communicating to the board about security, what >> it's run its? And and to your point, I mean typically these days for most major corporations in the world, the chief security officer is often presenting at every board meeting because cyber risk it's such a big, big part of that risk. And this is a challenge, right? Because to try to communicate all the tech required to manage that risk to aboard Not so easy, right? It's like, yeah, China count. How many now, where threats stopped. It's like, what do they do with that? If you talk to our our chief security officer, Steve Martino here, it's Cisco. I mean, he talks a lot about, first of all, having visibility, you know, being able to show how much visibility, how much can we see? And then how much can we control and show that the organization is making more and more progress in terms of just seeing what's out there so you don't know broke devices and then putting controls in place? So you need some pretty. You know, the big animal pictures communication of being able to manage that. But you can never come in and say, Yep, guaranteed. We're secure, you know, are given a number. It kind of has no meaning >> but strategy. Visibility, response. You know, mechanisms preparedness. What? The response. You know, protocol is that that's the level of it sounds like >> showing, you know, maturity of the process is really on the ability to take that on a supposed to getting into the weeds of, you know, all the metrics that stone. >> So we've had multi vendor for a long time, and even then, the network space, there's a lot of different pieces of the environment. How is multi cloud different from a security >> standpoint? Yeah, so the issue there and kind of what I was hinting that we talk about the way people build applications, is that all those vendors, they all do security differently. Everyone that scary differently s'all good, I mean and for example, Amazon, Google, Microsoft. They're all making massive investments to secure their own clouds, which is awesome, but they're always also different. And then you have the SAS vendors. You talked to sales force drop box in box. They have different security mechanisms. And then, of course, you have different ones in the enterprise. So from a chief security officer standpoint reporting to the board, they want one policy. You know, we want to protect sensitive corporate data, and then you have maybe one hundred different security policies across all these, All this mess. That's why it's different trying to manage the complexity and get the policies, toe work and get enforced across all those platforms. You can't force it all to be the same. So a lot of what we're working on, a really tools to do that so you can fitting back into that develops process. You, Khun, define high level policies of how do you control that data and then map it? Toe all those different platforms? That's that's the gold. That's how we that's how we get there. Make progress. >> She had a picture up in the keynotes today. It had users. Device is kind of on one side of the network and then applications in data on the other side of the network and then the network in the middle right and all those pieces fitting in. How does that affect how you think about security? We've talked a lot about application securing the application. Are you thinking similarly about the data or the devices, or even the users? You know bad user behavior will trump great security every time. Where do those other pieces fit into the context? >> Of course, that's a big reason why we just acquired duo security. You know, very significant acquisition there, which is exactly around trust of human beings as well as the device, is a key component that Sisko didn't have before that and fits in exactly to that point. I was a key strategic piece of that of trust, defining trust, and you know that it's in. Obviously, we already do lots on the device side. You know, we do things like identity service engine to enforce access. You know, with the network, we have more and more on the application side. Not so much in the data side yet, I mean, but as we move up the sack and of the application, it'll be around data, too. But the network is a natural convergence point there, and the whole idea of having security embedded right into that network is, of course, you know why. Why Francisco, right, that's security is a critical thing that needs to be embedded and everything that Cisco does. >> Well, you've got an advantage and that you could do the deep packet inspection you hear in the network. I mean, that's what >> visit bill I mean, Maturity is is really all about visibility. Don't visibility of nothing. And Cisco has this incredible foot print. Incredible telemetry across the world. I mean, all the statistics around Talos you probably seen it's a huge right and that's that's. Ah, that's a big advantage that we have to really provide security. >> Right? Awesome. Well, Bret, thanks for for coming back on The Cube was great to see you. My pleasure, tuk. Alright, alright. Keep right there, Everybody Stupid Open day! Volante, You're watching the cue from Cisco Live, Barcelona! Stay right there. We'LL be right back.

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering Cisco Live! Europe. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to Cisco Live! in Barcelona. I'm Dave Vellante with my cohost, Stu Miniman. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. This is day one of a three day segments that we're doing here at Cisco Live Barcelona. Bret Hartman is here as the CTO of Cisco Security Group. And we think of CUBE alone from way back, Bret. >> Way back, way back. >> Great to see you again. >> You bet. >> Thanks for coming on. So we're here to talk about Workload Security. >> Yep. >> What is that? What is Workload Security? >> What is Workload Security? So it's really the whole idea of how people secure applications today because applications aren't built the way they used to be. It's not the idea that you have an application that's just sitting running on a server anymore. Applications are actually built out of lots and lots of components. Those components may run in a typical data center, they may run in a cloud, they may be part of a SaaS solution, so you got all these different components that need to be plugged together. So the question is how do you possibly secure that when you have all these pieces, containers, and virtualized workloads all working together? That's the big question. >> Written oftentimes by different people with different skillsets. >> Different people, different services, yeah, open source, right. So all that somehow has to come together and you have to figure out how to secure it. That's question. >> And so what did you used to do with applications security? You used to just kind of figure it out at the end and bolt it on, is that? >> Pretty much, I mean, historically, people would do their best to secure their application. It would be kind of monolithic or three-tier, the web tier, app tier, database and that sort of thing. And then you'd also depend a lot on the infrastructure. You'd depend on firewalls, you'd depend on things on the edge to protect the application. The problem is there's not so much of an edge anymore when in that world I described you can't really rely so much on that infrastructure anymore. That's the shift of the world we know of. >> So what's the prescription today? How do you solve that problem? >> You know, there's a lot of ad hoc work. And so this whole notion, a lot of people talk about devsecops these days or sometimes it's devopssec, or there's all these different versions of that. But the whole idea of the devops world, the way people build applications today, and the security world, the security ops world are either coming together or colliding or crashing, right. And so it's getting those things to work. So right now, the way devops and secops works today is not particularly well. Lot of manual work, a lot of kind ad hoc scripts. But I will say probably over the last year, there's a lot more awareness that we need to figure this out to be able to merge these two things together. That's kind of the next stage. >> Bret, bring us inside that a little bit because if you listen to the devops people it's we got to do CICD. >> Yep. >> We need to move fast. And there was the myth out there, oh well, am I fast or am I secure? >> Right. >> I was reading some research recently and they said actually that's false trade off. Actually you can move fast and be more secure. But you raised a risk because you said if these are two separate things, and they're not working in lob step and it's not secure every step of the way in that part of your methodology then you're definitely going to break security. >> That's exactly right, and there's a basic question of how much of a responsibility the developers have to provide security anyway? I mean, historically, we don't really necessarily trust developers to care that much about security. Now as to your point, these days without the way people develop software today, they need to care more about 'em. But typically, it was the security operations folks. That was their responsibility. The developers could do whatever they wanted and the security folks kept them safe. Well, again, as you said you can't do that anymore. So the developers have to pull security into their development processes. >> Yeah, when I go to some of the container shows or the serverless shows, the people in the security space are like chanting up on stage, security is everyone's responsibility. >> Right. >> Which hasn't traditionally been the case. >> It has not, and so it's really what companies are working on now is how do the security operations people fit into that development process? And what are the tools? And again, it's a long, complicated set of infrastructure and other sorts of tools, but that's sort of the point. At Cisco, we're really working on evolving the security products and technology, so exactly it fits into that process, that's the goal. >> So I'm sure there's a maturity model, or a spectrum >> Yeah >> When you go out and talk to customers. Maybe we could poke at that a little bit. >> Sure. >> Describe that. So you're really talking about a world where it's team a sport. The regime is everybody's got to be involved. But oftentimes they're working for different people. >> Yep. >> Some are working for the CIO maybe some the CTO, some the CSO, maybe some other line of business. >> Different companies, contractors, providers, all that. >> Yeah. Right, partners. So what does that spectrum look like, and how are you helping customers take that journey? >> Yeah, so not surprisingly, companies that are born in the cloud, they're like this is old news. It's like this how they deal with it every day. A lot of those companies have the lower risk deployments anyway. The organizations that are really early days on this are the ones that have lots of existing investment in all that data center stuff. And they're trying to figure out how this is going to work. You talk to a typical bank, for example, their core business processes of how they protect money, they're not going to move to the cloud, right? So how did they evolve? And they, by the way, they have to deal with compliance requirements on all this other stuff. They can't play too fast and loose. So that's an example of something that's early days. But they are also working a lot in terms of evolving, moving to the cloud and having to be able to support that too. >> So when you engage with clients, I presume you try to assess kind of where they're at. >> Yep. >> And then figure out where they want to go and then how to best get 'em there. So what is Cisco's role in helping them get there? >> And so first of all, of course I represent the business group that builds the security products, right. So a lot of this and the reason why my group is so interested in this, and our security group at Cisco is so interested, is this really represents the future of security. This idea of having it much more embedded into the applications as opposed to purely being in the infrastructure. So what we're seeing for typical customers, like if I roll the clock back a year ago, and we talked about things like devsecops, they were like yeah, kind of an interesting problem, the one we just talked about, but it's like not quite ready for it. Now this is, I think every CSO, Chief Security Office, I talked to, very aware, have active engagements about how they're working with their devops groups. And are actively seeking for tools and technology to support them. So to me that's a good sign that it's... The world is moving in this direction. And as a security vendor, we need to evolve too. So that means things like evolving the way firewalls work, for example. It's not just about firewalls sitting at the edge. It means distributing firewall functionality. It means moving functionality into the pubic cloud, like AWS, and Google, and Azure. It means moving security up into the application itself. So it's a very different world than just a box sitting on the edge. That's the journey, and we're on that journey, too. And the industry is. I mean, it's not a solved problem for exactly how to do that. >> If we go back the early days, we were talking about that when theCUBE started in 2010, security really wasn't a board level topic back then. >> True. Or at least not for every company. There was certainly some companies >> Yeah, for sure. >> But now it's like you're right, every company cares about it. >> Right, and it comes up at every quarterly meeting, certainly every annual meeting. So what should ... How should the technical C side, the CIO, CTO, if they're invited into the board meeting, how should they be communicating to the board about security? >> That's a tough one. >> What should be the key messages? >> And to your point, I mean typically these days for most major corporations in the world, the Chief Security Officer is often presenting at every board meeting because cyber risk is such a big, big part of that risk. And this is a challenge, right, because to try to communicate all the tech required to manage that risk to a board, not so easy, right. It's like trying count how many malware threats stopped. It's like what'll they do with that? If you talk to our Chief Security Officer, Steve Martino here at Cisco, I mean, he talks a lot about first of all, having visibility. Being able to show how much visibility. How much can we see? And then how much can we control and show that the organization is making more and more progress in terms of just seeing what's out there so you don't have broke devices, and then putting controls in place. So you need some pretty big animal pictures, communication of being able to manage that, but you can never come in and say, yep guaranteed, we're secure. Or give it a number, it kind of has no meaning. >> But strategy, visibility, response mechanisms, preparedness, what the response protocol is that's the level of, it sounds like >> It's showing maturity of the >> level of communications. >> processes, really, and the ability to take that on as opposed to getting into the weeds of all the metrics that, it just don't. >> So, Bret, we've had multi vendors for a long time and even in the network space there's a lot of different pieces of the environment. How is multi cloud different from a security standpoint? >> Yeah, so the issue there, and kind of what I was hinting at, we talk about the way people build applications is that all those vendors, they all do security differently. Every one does security differently. It's all good, I mean. And for example, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, they're all making massive investments to secure their own clouds, which is awesome, but they're all also different. And then you have the SaaS vendors. You talk to Salesforce, Dropbox and Box, they have different security mechanisms. And then, of course, you have different ones in the enterprise. So from a Chief Security Officer's standpoint, reporting to the board, they want one policy. We want to protect sensitive corporate data. And then you have maybe 100 different security policies across all this mess. That's why it's different. Trying to manage the complexity and get the policies to work and get, of course all those platforms, you can't force it all to be the same. So a lot of what we're working on are really tools to do that. So you can, fitting back into that devops process, you can define high-level policies of how do you control that data and then map it to all those different platforms. That's the goal, that's how we get there, make progress. >> So you had a picture up in the keynotes today. It had users, devices kind of on one side of the network. And then applications and data on the other side of the network. And then the network in the middle and all those pieces fitting in. How does that affect how you think about security? We've talked a lot about applications, securing the applications. Are you thinking similarly about the data, or the devices, or even the users? Bad user behavior will trump great security every time. Where do those other pieces fit into the context? >> Well, of course, that's a big reason why we just acquired Duo Security. >> Yikes. >> Very significant acquisition there, which is exactly around trust of human beings as well as the devices. A key component that Cisco didn't have before that and fits in exactly to that point. I was a key strategic piece of that, of trust, defining trust. And yeah, that fits in. Obviously we already do lots on the device side. We do things like the Identity Service Engine to enforce access with the network. We have more and more on the applications side. Not so much in the data side yet. I mean, but as we move up the stack into the application it'll be around data too. But the network is a natural conversions point there. And the whole idea of having security embedded right into that network is of course why I'm at Cisco, right. That security is a critical thing that needs to be embedded in everything that Cisco does. >> Well, you've got an advantage in that you can do the ePacket inspection, you're in the network. I mean, that's fundamental. >> Security is really all about visibility. You don't have visibility, you have nothing. And Cisco has this incredible footprint, incredible telemetry across the world. I mean, all the statistics around Talos you probably seen. It's huge, right. And that's a big advantage that we have to really provide security. >> Awesome. Well, Brent, thank you for coming back on theCUBE. It's great to see you again. >> My pleasure. >> 'Preciate the update. >> Glad to see you again. >> All right, keep it right there everybody. Stu Miniman and Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE from Cisco Live! Barcelona. Stay right there, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)