(upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier host of theCUBE, and I'm here with mparticle. With Chee Chew, Chief Product Officer. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> So mparticle's doing some pretty amazing things around managing customer data end to end as a data platform. A lot of integrations. You guys are state of the art cloud scale for this new kind of use case of using the data for customer value in real time. A lot of good stuff going on. So I really want to dig into this whole prospect. So what is the company about first? Take a minute to explain what is mparticle for the folks watching? >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you think about the world today where it's like cloud computing and businesses are getting a lot of data from customers as consumers go online. And they have these cloud services that are collecting all this data about the customer. How do you get it organized? How do you have all that data that's in different departments, reconcile them and like give it to your departments. So they can really personalize the experiences. We've all had these experiences where, you know, like we're this loyal customer of a brand, we shop there a lot. And then we go over to like the customer service and they act like they have no idea who we are. Our job is to help businesses really understand the customer and be able to treat them in a personal way. To do the very best for every experience. >> Well, Chee you're in a really big spot there with the company, Chief Product... You got the keys to the kingdom over there. You're overseeing all the action. You got a platform, a bunch of solutions you're enabling. Customer data has been around for a long time. We hear big systems in the past, oh got to leverage the customer data. But why is the customer data more important now than ever as developers and cloud scale are emerging in. Why is customer data becoming more and more valuable to organizations? >> No. Well, customer data has been around for like decades and decades. The amount of customer data being generated online has just accelerated. It's been exponential. There's been more data collected in the past four years than the past 40 years. And like businesses are just starting to realize, how much of a goldmine that could be for them. If they could really harness it. And especially in today's world where treating it properly, respecting people's privacy, really doing well by the customer, earning the right to use that data is ever so important. The combination that brings the need for solutions like mparticle. >> Talk about some of the enablement that you guys offer your customers. You got a platform, you got a lot of moving parts in there. A lot of key components, a lot of integrations. With all the best platforms to connect to. We're in an API economy. So trust is huge. You got to have the data governance. Everything's got to work together. It's a really hard problem. How do you guys enable value there? What is the key product value that you guys are enabling? >> Yeah, it is a hard problem. And with the data being so important to businesses and treating it well and collecting it from all the different aspects, there are many places where we... Our customers really value the services we bring. As you mentioned, we have a large set of integrations. We can get data in from pretty much any system that you have. Even if you built it yourself, we have ways of enabling you to collect that data from all around the company. Then we reconcile them. So we create one single view of the customer. We adhere to all the privacy regulations around the world to make sure that you're compliant with not only laws but with the trust with your consumers. We clean that data and then we distribute it to all the systems where you really want to create personalized experiences. So the collection, the reconciliation, the cleaning, the conformance, and then the distribution. Those are all key events that we do to bring value to customers. >> It's funny in all these major shifts, you're seeing all the same things. You got to be a media company. You got to be a data company. Got to be a video company. Got to be a cloud company. So in the digital transformation, you know with machine learning and AI really at the center of the application value now, you can measure everything in a company. So, smart leadership saying, hey, if we can measure everything, don't we want to know what's going on with respect to our customer. The journey they call it. So, you know, there's the industry taglines of customer best in class experiences, capturing the moments that matter. Describe how you do that. Because moments that matter to me feel like something that's real time or something that's super important, that's contextualized. You got to get that context with that journey. How do you guys do that? This is something I'm intrigued about. >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I... This hearken backs to my experience when I was at Amazon doing retail and we really focus on personalization and the notion of when you go to one page or one screen on your mobile device and then you go to the very next page. That very next page has to be personalized with the things that you did on... Just seconds ago on the previous one. That idea of being at the interaction speed, keeping up with the customers. That's what, we've... What we provide for our brands. It's not enough to just collect the data, churn on it, do a bunch of like calculations and then tomorrow figure out what to do. Tomorrow figure out how to personalize it. It has to be in interaction time with our customers. >> John: It's interesting too. You'll have experience in big companies, hyperscalers with large, you know, media business and data. Bringing that to normal companies, enterprises, and mid-market, they have to then stand up their own staff. They have to operationalize this in a large data strategy that maximizes the value. How do brands do this effectively? Can you share best practice of what's the best way to stand up and operationalize the team, the developers, the strategy. >> Chee: Yeah and this is a great question. And right now with the world... The way the world and the industry is developing, businesses don't all do it the same way. Like at Amazon, we built our own. Now we had several hundred engineers in my team who are collecting the data, analyzing it, and really cleaning it. Not every company can afford a couple hundred engineers just to do this... Solve this one problem. Which is why I'm super excited about what we're doing at mparticle, where we're trying to make that available to every company in the world. Whether you're a huge brand, like an NBC, or you're a smaller, medium size startup. Like you have a lot of data and we can help make it accessible for you. Now, many companies do start and build it from scratch and the problems early on, seem very tractable. But then as new laws come out, as the platform changes, as Apple and iOS change the rules on what you can collect and what data you can't collect. That puts you on this treadmill of always like reinvesting and reinvesting in the data collection. And not as much at innovating on your business. And then many companies turn around and decide, oh I understand why you want a company like an mparticle, providing that service. >> It's interesting. You guys do a lot of that... The key value proposition that we hear a lot for successful companies. You take care of that the heavy differentiate... Undifferentiated heavy lifting. So the customer can focus on the value. This seems to be the theme of of the data problem that companies want to solve. There's a lot of grunt work that has to get done. A lot of, you know, get down and dirty and work on stuff. If you can just automate it, make it go faster, then you can apply more creative processes and tools onto getting more growth or more value out of the use case. Can you... Is that something that's happening here? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, the dirty secret that if you talk to any like machine learning scientist data engineer, what they'll tell you is it seems like the world is sexy when you talk to new like computer science students about like building models. But when they go to industry they spend like 80 or 90% of their time cleaning data, getting access to data, like getting the right permissions. And they spend like 10 to 20% of the time actually building models and doing the really interesting things that you want your data science to do. That's a really expensive way of getting to your models. And that's why you're right. Services like, mparticle, like our core business is to take that grunt work and that... Things that might be less exciting and bespoke to your business. Like that's the stuff that we get excited about. And we want to provide the best op... Best in breed experience for our customers. >> Yeah. There's no doubt, every company will have to have this really complex, hard to solve platform problem. You either buy or build it. I mean, you're not... Not everyone's Amazon, right? So not everyone can do that. So you got to have the integrations, you got to have the personalizations, you got to have the data quality and you got to have the data governance in there too. You can't forget the fact that you'd be dealing with potentially trusted parties that don't work for you. Right? So this is a huge connection point that I want to just quickly get into. Quickly, APIs connects companies but now also connects data. How do you view that? How should customers think about the connection points when they start to share customer data with other companies? >> Yeah, you're totally right in that. Not only is it important for you to do this in terms of saving your time in engineering and all the amount of work you have, but the risk is super high. If you treat customers data incorrectly, you can break trust with your consumers. It takes a long time to build that trust and just a moment to lose it. And so it is more than just engineering time savings but it is also a risk to the business. Now... Then you go to down to like, how do you do it? Why APIs? The reason for us, our push on really the API platform is to give power to developers. Within your company, you may have some innovation that you want, some way you want to really differentiate yourself from the rest of the field. If we provided only standard UI. Standard ways of doing it, then our customers would all behave and have the same capabilities as every other customer. But by us providing APIs it allows our customers to really innovate and make the platform bend to their will. To support the unique ideas that they have. So that's our approach of why we really focus on the customer data infrastructure. >> John: Yeah, it's a great opportunity Chee, I really appreciate your time. Real final question for you, as folks look at this opportunity to have a data platform and mparticle, one that you have. They're going to probably ask you the question of, hey I got developers too. I'm hiring more and more cloud native developers. We're API first, obviously we're cloud native. We love that direction. We're distributed computing. All that great stuff at the edge. I got machine learning. But I really want to integrate, I want to control the experience. I want to be agile and fast. Can you help us? What's your answer to that question? >> Absolutely. If you look at the things that your engines are doing, and you ask them how much of what they're doing is similar to what you expect from other similar companies and how much is really unique to your business. You'll probably find that a minority of the work is really unique to that business. And the majority are things that are common problems that other companies struggle with. Our job is to help take that away. So you can really focus on what's unique, bespoke, and innovative for you. >> John: Follow up to that real quick, as you're the Chief Product Officer. Talk to the folks out there who are watching, who may not know what goes on in a product organization. You're making all kinds of trade offs. You got a product roadmap, you've got the 20 mile stare. You have a North Star. What should they know about mparticle, about the product that they... That's important for them to either pay attention to or they may not know about. >> You know, my... When I think about mparticle, it's not just a product but it's the whole offering. And what you want to know about mparticle is we really work hard to empower our customers, whether it's through the API platforms. So that you have the full flexibility to do whatever you want or through our customer service and our support teams. We are... Have a great reputation with our customers about really focusing on and unblocking them, enabling whatever the heart desires. >> John: Yeah and building on top of it. Sounds great. Chee, thanks for coming on. Appreciate the update on mparticle. Thanks for your time. Great to see you. >> Absolutely. Thank you for your time. >> Okay. This is theCUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone. We're here at theCUBE startup showcase made possible by AWS. Thanks so much for joining us today. You know, when Zhamak Dehghani was formulating her ideas around data mesh, she wasn't the only one thinking about decentralized data architectures. HelloFresh was going into hyper-growth mode and realized that in order to support its scale, it needed to rethink how it thought about data. Like many companies that started in the early part of the last decade, HelloFresh relied on a monolithic data architecture and the internal team it had concerns about its ability to support continued innovation at high velocity. The company's data team began to think about the future and work backwards from a target architecture, which possessed many principles of so-called data mesh, even though they didn't use that term specifically. The company is a strong example of an early but practical pioneer of data mesh. Now, there are many practitioners and stakeholders involved in evolving the company's data architecture many of whom are listed here on this slide. Two are highlighted in red and joining us today. We're really excited to welcome you to theCUBE, Clemence Chee, who is the global senior director for data at HelloFresh, and Christoph Sawade, who's the global senior director of data also of course at HelloFresh. Folks, welcome. Thanks so much for making some time today and sharing your story. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks, Dave. >> All right, let's start with HelloFresh. You guys are number one in the world in your field. You deliver hundreds of millions of meals each year to many, many millions of people around the globe. You're scaling. Christoph, tell us a little bit more about your company and its vision. >> Yeah. Should I start or Clemence? Maybe take over the first piece because Clemence has actually been longer a director at HelloFresh. >> Yeah go ahead Clemence. >> I mean, yes, about approximately six years ago I joined and HelloFresh, and I didn't think about the startup I was joining would eventually IPO. And just two years later, HelloFresh went public. And approximately three years and 10 months after HelloFresh was listed on the German stock exchange which was just last week, HelloFresh was included in the DAX Germany's leading stock market index and that, to mind a great, great milestone, and I'm really looking forward and I'm very excited for the future for HelloFresh and also our data. The vision that we have is to become the world's leading food solution group. And there are a lot of attractive opportunities. So recently we did launch and expand in Norway. This was in July. And earlier this year, we launched the US brand, Green Chef, in the UK as well. We're committed to launch continuously different geographies in the next coming years and have a strong path ahead of us. With the acquisition of ready to eat companies like factor in the US and the plant acquisition of Youfoodz in Australia, we are diversifying our offer, now reaching even more and more untapped customer segments and increase our total address for the market. So by offering customers and growing range of different alternatives to shop food and to consume meals, we are charging towards this vision and this goal to become the world's leading integrated food solutions group. >> Love it. You guys are on a rocket ship. You're really transforming the industry. And as you expand your TAM, it brings us to sort of the data as a core part of that strategy. So maybe you guys could talk a little bit about your journey as a company, specifically as it relates to your data journey. I mean, you began as a startup, you had a basic architecture and like everyone, you've made extensive use of spreadsheets, you built a Hadoop based system that started to grow. And when the company IPO'd, you really started to explode. So maybe describe that journey from a data perspective. >> Yes, Dave. So HelloFresh by 2015, approximately had evolved what amount, a classical centralized data management set up. So we grew very organically over the years, and there were a lot of very smart people around the globe, really building the company and building our infrastructure. This also means that there were a small number of internal and external sources, data sources, and a centralized BI team with a number of people producing different reports, different dashboards and, and products for our executives, for example, or for different operations teams to see a company's performance and knowledge was transferred just by our talking to each other face-to-face conversations. And the people in the data warehouse team were considered as the data wizard or as the ETL wizard. Very classical challenges. And it was ETL, who reserved, indicated the kind of like a style of knowledge of data management, right? So our central data warehouse team then was responsible for different type of verticals in different domains, different geographies. And all this setup gave us in the beginning, the flexibility to grow fast as a company in 2015. >> Christoph, anything to add to that? >> Yes, not explicitly to that one, but as, as Clemence said, right, this was kind of the setup that actually worked for us quite a while. And then in 2017, when HelloFresh went public, the company also grew rapidly. And just to give you an idea how that looked like as well, the tech departments have actually increased from about 40 people to almost 300 engineers. And in the same way as the business units, as there Clemence has described, also grew sustainably. So we continue to launch HelloFresh in new countries, launched new brands like Every Plate, and also acquired other brands like we have Factor. And that grows also from a data perspective, the number of data requests that the central (mumbles), we're getting become more and more and more, and also more and more complex. So that for the team meant that they had a fairly high mental load. So they had to achieve a very, or basically get a very deep understanding about the business and also suffered a lot from this context, switching back and forth. Essentially, they had to prioritize across our product requests from our physical product, digital product, from a physical, from, sorry, from the marketing perspective, and also from the central reporting teams. And in a nutshell, this was very hard for these people, and that altered situations that let's say the solution that we have built. We can not really optimal. So in a, in a, in a, in a nutshell, the central function became a bottleneck and slow down of all the innovation of the company. >> It's a classic case. Isn't it? I mean, Clemence, you see, you see the central team becomes a bottleneck, and so the lines of business, the marketing team, sales teams say "Okay, we're going to take things into our own hands." And then of course IT and the technical team is called in later to clean up the mess. Maybe, maybe I'm overstating it, but, but that's a common situation. Isn't it? >> Yeah this is what exactly happened. Right. So we had a bottleneck, we had those central teams, there was always a bit of tension. Analytics teams then started in those business domains like marketing, supply chain, finance, HR, and so on started really to build their own data solutions. At some point you have to get the ball rolling, right? And then continue the trajectory, which means then that the data pipelines didn't meet the engineering standards. And there was an increased need for maintenance and support from central teams. Hence over time, the knowledge about those pipelines and how to maintain a particular infrastructure, for example, left the company, such that most of those data assets and data sets that turned into a huge debt with decreasing data quality, also decreasing lack of trust, decreasing transparency. And this was an increasing challenge where a majority of time was spent in meeting rooms to align on, on data quality for example. >> Yeah. And the point you were making Christoph about context switching, and this is, this is a point that Zhamak makes quite often as we've, we've, we've contextualized our operational systems like our sales systems, our marketing systems, but not our, our data systems. So you're asking the data team, okay, be an expert in sales, be an expert in marketing, be an expert in logistics, be an expert in supply chain and it's start, stop, start, stop. It's a paper cut environment, and it's just not as productive. But, but, and the flip side of that is when you think about a centralized organization, you think, hey, this is going to be a very efficient way across functional team to support the organization, but it's not necessarily the highest velocity, most effective organizational structure. >> Yeah. So, so I agree with that piece, that's up to a certain scale. A centralized function has a lot of advantages, right? So it's a tool for everyone, which would go to a destined kind of expert team. However, if you see that you actually would like to accelerate that in specific as the type of growth. But you want to actually have autonomy on certain teams and move the teams, or let's say the data to the experts in these teams. And this, as you have mentioned, right, that increases mental load. And you can either internally start splitting your team into different kinds of sub teams focusing on different areas, however, that is then again, just adding another piece where actually collaboration needs to happen because the external seized, so why not bridging that gap immediately and actually move these teams end to end into the, into the function themselves. So maybe just to continue what Clemence was saying, and this is actually where our, so, Clemence and my journey started to become one joint journey. So Clemence was coming actually from one of these teams who builds their own solutions. I was basically heading the platform team called data warehouse team these days. And in 2019, where (mumbles) become more and more serious, I would say, so more and more people have recognized that this model does not really scale, in 2019, basically the leadership of the company came together and identified data as a key strategic asset. And what we mean by that, that if he leveraged it in a, in a, an appropriate way, it gives us a unique, competitive advantage, which could help us to, to support and actually fully automate our decision making process across the entire value chain. So once we, what we're trying to do now, or what we would be aiming for is that HelloFresh is able to build data products that have a purpose. We're moving away from the idea that it's just a bi-product. We have a purpose why we would like to collect this data. There's a clear business need behind that. And because it's so important to, for the company as a business, we also want to provide them as a trustworthy asset to the rest of the organization. We'd say, this is the best customer experience, but at least in a way that users can easily discover, understand and securely access, high quality data. >> Yeah. So, and, and, and Clemence, when you see Zhamak's writing, you see, you know, she has the four pillars and the principles. As practitioners, you look at that say, okay, hey, that's pretty good thinking. And then now we have to apply it. And that's where the devil meets the details. So it's the for, the decentralized data ownership, data as a product, which we'll talk about a little bit, self-serve, which you guys have spent a lot of time on, and Clemence your wheelhouse, which is, which is governance and a federated governance model. And it's almost like if you, if you achieve the first two, then you have to solve for the second two, it almost creates a new challenges, but maybe you could talk about that a little bit as to how it relates to HelloFresh. >> Yes. So Chris has mentioned that we identified kind of a challenge beforehand and said, how can we actually decentralized and actually empower the different colleagues of ours? And this was more a, we realized that it was more an organizational or a cultural change. And this is something that someone also mentioned. I think ThoughtWorks mentioned one of the white papers, it's more of an organizational or a cultural impact. And we kicked off a phased reorganization, or different phases we're currently on, in the middle of still, but we kicked off different phases of organizational restructuring or reorganization trying to lock this data at scale. And the idea was really moving away from ever growing complex matrix organizations or matrix setups and split between two different things. One is the value creation. So basically when people ask the question, what can we actually do? What should we do? This is value creation and the how, which is capability building, and both are equal in authority. This actually then creates a high urge in collaboration and this collaboration breaks up the different silos that were built. And of course, this also includes different needs of staffing for teams staffing with more, let's say data scientists or data engineers, data professionals into those business domains, enhance, or some more capability building. >> Okay, go ahead. Sorry. >> So back to Zhamak Dehghani. So we, the idea also then crossed over when she published her papers in May, 2019. And we thought, well, the four pillars that she described were around decentralized data ownership, product, data as a product mindset, we have a self-service infrastructure. And as you mentioned, federated computational governance. And this suited very much with our thinking at that point of time to reorganize the different teams and this then that to not only organizational restructure, but also in completely new approach of how we need to manage data, through data. >> Got it. Okay. So your businesses is exploding. The data team was having to become domain experts to many areas, constantly context switching as we said, people started to take things into their own hands. So again, we said classic story, but, but you didn't let it get out of control and that's important. And so we, we actually have a picture of kind of where you're going today and it's evolved into this, Pat, if you could bring up the picture with the, the elephant, here we go. So I will talk a little bit about the architecture. It doesn't show it here, the spreadsheet era, but Christoph, maybe you could talk about that. It does show the Hadoop monolith, which exists today. I think that's in a managed hosting service, but, but you, you preserve that piece of it. But if I understand it correctly, everything is evolving to the cloud. I think you're running a lot of this or all of it in AWS. You've got, everybody's got their own data sources. You've got a data hub, which I think is enabled by a master catalog for discovery and all this underlying technical infrastructure that is, is really not the focus of this conversation today. But the key here, if I understand correctly is these domains are autonomous and that not only this required technical thinking, but really supportive organizational mindset, which we're going to talk about today. But, but Christoph, maybe you could address, you know, at a high level, some of the architectural evolution that you guys went through. >> Yeah, sure. Yeah. Maybe it's also a good summary about the entire history. So as you have mentioned, right, we started in the very beginning, it's a monolith on the operational plan, right? Actually it wasn't just one model it was two, one for the backend and one for the front end. And our analytical plan was essentially a couple of spreadsheets. And I think there's nothing wrong with spreadsheets, but it allows you to store information, it allows you to transform data, it allows you to share this information, it allows you to visualize this data, but all kind of, it's not actually separating concern, right? Every single one tool. And this means that it's obviously not scalable, right? You reach the point where this kind of management's set up in, or data management is in one tool, reached elements. So what we have started is we created our data lake, as we have seen here on our dupe. And just in the very beginning actually reflected very much our operation upon this. On top of that, we used Impala as a data warehouse, but there was not really a distinction between what is our data warehouse and what is our data lakes as the Impala was used as kind of both as a kind of engine to create a warehouse and data lake constructed itself. And this organic growth actually led to a situation. As I think it's clear now that we had the centralized model as, for all the domains that were really lose Kimball, the modeling standards and there's new uniformity we used to actually build, in-house, a base of building materialized use, of use that we have used for the presentation there. There was a lot of duplication of effort. And in the end, essentially the amendments and feedback tool, which helped us to, to improve of what we, have built during the end in a natural, as you said, the lack of trust. And this basically was a starting point for us to understand, okay, how can we move away? And there are a lot of different things that we can discuss of apart from this organizational structure that we have set up here, we have three or four pillars from Zhamak. However, there's also the next, extra question around, how do we implement product, right? What are the implications on that level and I think that is, that's something that we are, that we are currently still in progress. >> Got it. Okay. So I wonder if we could talk about, switch gears a little bit, and talk about the organizational and cultural challenges that you faced. What were those conversations like? And let's, let's dig into that a little bit. I want to get into governance as well. >> The conversations on the cultural change. I mean, yes, we went through a hyper growth through the last year, and obviously there were a lot of new joiners, a lot of different, very, very smart people joining the company, which then results that collaborations got a bit more difficult. Of course, the time zone changes. You have different, different artifacts that you had recreated in documentation that were flying around. So we were, we had to build the company from scratch, right? Of course, this then resulted always this tension, which I described before. But the most important part here is that data has always been a very important factor at HelloFresh, and we collected more of this data and continued to improve, use data to improve the different key areas of our business. Even when organizational struggles like the central (mumbles) struggles, data somehow always helped us to grow through this kind of change, right? In the end, those decentralized teams in our local geographies started with solutions that serve the business, which was very, very important. Otherwise, we wouldn't be at the place where we are today, but they did violate best practices and standards. And I always use the sports analogy, Dave. So like any sport, there are different rules and regulations that need to be followed. These routes are defined by, I'll call it, the sports association. And this is what you can think about other data governance and then our compliance team. Now we add the players to it who need to follow those rules and abide by them. This is what we then call data management. Now we have the different players, the professionals they also need to be trained and understand the strategy and the rules before they can play. And this is what I then called data literacy. So we realized that we need to focus on helping our teams to develop those capabilities and teach the standards for how work is being done to truly drive functional excellence in the different domains. And one of our ambition of our data literacy program for example, is to really empower every employee at HelloFresh, everyone, to make the right data-informed decisions by providing data education that scales (mumbles), and that can be different things. Different things like including data capabilities with, in the learning path for example, right? So help them to create and deploy data products, connecting data, producers, and data consumers, and create a common sense and more understanding of each other's dependencies, which is important. For example, SIS, SLO, state of contracts, et cetera, people get more of a sense of ownership and responsibility. Of course, we have to define what it means. What does ownership means? What does responsibility mean? But we are teaching this to our colleagues via individual learning patterns and help them upscale to use also their shared infrastructure, and those self-service data applications. And of all to summarize, we are still in this progress of learning. We're still learning as well. So learning never stops at Hello Fresh, but we are really trying this to make it as much fun as possible. And in the end, we all know user behavior is changed through positive experience. So instead of having massive training programs over endless courses of workshops, leaving our new joiners and colleagues confused and overwhelmed, we're applying gamification, right? So split different levels of certification where our colleagues, can access, have had access points. They can earn badges along the way, which then simplifies the process of learning and engagement of the users. And this is what we see in surveys, for example, where our employees value this gamification approach a lot and are even competing to collect those learning pet badges, to become the number one on the leaderboard. >> I love the gamification. I mean, we've seen it work so well in so many different industries, not the least of which is crypto. So you've identified some of the process gaps that you, you saw, you just gloss over them. Sometimes I say, pave the cow path. You didn't try to force. In other words, a new architecture into the legacy processes, you really had to rethink your approach to data management. So what did that entail? >> To rethink the way of data management, 100%. So if I take the example of revolution, industrial revolution or classical supply chain revolution, but just imagine that you have been riding a horse, for example, your whole life, and suddenly you can operate a car or you suddenly receive just a complete new way of transporting assets from A to B. So we needed to establish a new set of cross-functional business processes to run faster, drive faster, more robustly, and deliver data products which can be trusted and used by downstream processes and systems. Hence we had a subset of new standards and new procedures that would fall into the internal data governance and compliance sector. With internal, I'm always referring to the data operations around new things like data catalog, how to identify ownership, how to change ownership, how to certify data assets, everything around classical is software development, which we now apply to data. This, this is some old and new thinking, right? Deployment, versioning, QA, all the different things, ingestion policies, the deletion procedures, all the things that software development has been doing, we do it now with data as well. And it's simple terms, it's a whole redesign of the supply chain of our data with new procedures and new processes in asset creation, asset management and asset consumption. >> So data's become kind of the new development kit, if you will. I want to shift gears and talk about the notion of data product, and we have a slide that, that we pulled from your deck. And I'd like to unpack it a little bit. I'll just, if you can bring that up, I'll, I'll read it. A data product is a product whose primary objective is to leverage on data to solve customer problems, where customers are both internal and external. so pretty straightforward. I know you've, you've gone much deeper in your thinking and into your organization, but how do you think about that and how do you determine for instance, who owns what, how did you get everybody to agree? >> I can take that one. Maybe let me start as a data product. So I think that's an ongoing debate, right? And I think the debate itself is the important piece here, right? You mentioned the debate, you've clarified what we actually mean by that, a product, and what is actually the mindset. So I think just from a definition perspective, right? I think we find the common denominator that we say, okay, that our product is something which is important for the company that comes with value. What do you mean by that? Okay. It's a solution to a customer problem that delivers ideally maximum value to the business. And yes, leverage is the power of data. And we have a couple of examples, and I'll hit refresh here, the historical and classical ones around dashboards, for example, to monitor our error rates, but also more sophisticated based for example, to incorporate machine learning algorithms in our recipe recommendation. However, I think the important aspects of a data product is A: there is an owner, right? There's someone accountable for making sure that the product that you're providing is actually served and has maintained. And there are, there's someone who's making sure that this actually keeps the value of what we are promising. Combined with the idea of the proper documentation, like a product description, right? The people understand how to use it. What is this about? And related to that piece is the idea of, there's a purpose, right? We need to understand or ask ourselves, okay, why does a thing exist? Does it provide the value that we think it does? Then it leads in to a good understanding of what the life cycle of the data product and product life cycle. What do we mean? Okay. From the beginning, from the creation, you need to have a good understanding. You need to collect feedback. We need to learn about that, you need to rework, and actually finally, also to think about, okay, when is it time to decommission that piece So overall I think the core of this data product is product thinking 101, right? That we start, the point is, the starting point needs to be the problem and not the solution. And this is essentially what we have seen, what was missing, what brought us to this kind of data spaghetti that we have built there in Rush, essentially, we built it. Certain data assets develop in isolation and continuously patch the solution just to fulfill these ad hoc requests that we got and actually really understanding what the stakeholder needs. And the interesting piece as a results in duplication of (mumbled) And this is not just frustrating and probably not the most efficient way, how the company should work. But also if I build the same data assets, but slightly different assumption across the company and multiple teams that leads to data inconsistency. And imagine the following scenario. You, as a management, for management perspective, you're asking basically a specific question and you get essentially from a couple of different teams, different kinds of graphs, different kinds of data and numbers. And in the end, you do not know which ones to trust. So there's actually much (mumbles) but good. You do not know what actually is it noise for times of observing or is it just actually, is there actually a signal that I'm looking for? And the same as if I'm running an AB test, right? I have a new feature, I would like to understand what is the business impact of this feature? I run that with a specific source and an unfortunate scenario. Your production system is actually running on a different source. You see different numbers. What you have seen in the AB test is actually not what you see then in production, typical thing. Then as you asking some analytics team to actually do a deep dive, to understand where the discrepancies are coming from, worst case scenario again, there's a different kind of source. So in the end, it's a pretty frustrating scenario. And it's actually a waste of time of people that have to identify the root cause of this type of divergence. So in a nutshell, the highest degree of consistency is actually achieved if people are just reusing data assets. And also in the end, the meetup talk they've given, right? We start trying to establish this approach by AB testing. So we have a team, but just providing, or is kind of owning their target metric associated business teams, and they're providing that as a product also to other services, including the AB testing team. The AB testing team can use this information to find an interface say, okay, I'm drawing information for the metadata of an experiment. And in the end, after the assignment, after this data collection phase, they can easily add a graph to a dashboard just grouped by the AB testing barrier. And we have seen that also in other companies. So it's not just a nice dream that we have, right? I have actually looked at other companies maybe looked on search and we established a complete KPI pipeline that was computing all these information and this information both hosted by the team and those that (mumbles) AB testing, deep dives and, and regular reporting again. So just one last second, the, the important piece, Now, why I'm coming back to that is that it requires that we are treating this data as a product, right? If we want to have multiple people using the thing that I am owning and building, we have to provide this as a trust (mumbles) asset and in a way that it's easy for people to discover and to actually work with. >> Yeah. And coming back to that. So this is, to me this is why I get so excited about data mesh, because I really do think it's the right direction for organizations. When people hear data product, they think, "Well, what does that mean?" But then when you start to sort of define it as you did, it's using data to add value that could be cutting costs, that could be generating revenue, it could be actually directly creating a product that you monetize. So it's sort of in the eyes of the beholder, but I think the other point that we've made, is you made it earlier on too, and again, context. So when you have a centralized data team and you have all these P&L managers, a lot of times they'll question the data 'cause they don't own it. They're like, "Well, wait a minute." If it doesn't agree with their agenda, they'll attack the data. But if they own the data, then they're responsible for defending that. And that is a mindset change that's really important. And I'm curious is how you got to that ownership. Was it a top-down or was somebody providing leadership? Was it more organic bottom up? Was it a sort of a combination? How do you decide who owned what? In other words, you know, did you get, how did you get the business to take ownership of the data and what does owning the data actually mean? >> That's a very good question, Dave. I think that one of the pieces where I think we have a lot of learning and basically if you ask me how we could stop the filling, I think that would be the first piece that we need to start. Really think about how that should be approached. If it's staff has ownership, right? That means somehow that the team has the responsibility to host themselves the data assets to minimum acceptable standards. That's minimum dependencies up and down stream. The interesting piece has to be looking backwards. What was happening is that under that definition, this extra process that we have to go through is not actually transferring ownership from a central team to the other teams, but actually in most cases to establish ownership. I make this difference because saying we have to transfer ownership actually would erroneously suggest that the dataset was owned before, but this platform team, yes, they had the capability to make the change, but actually the analytics team, but always once we had the business understand the use cases and what no one actually bought, it's actually expensive, expected. So we had to go through this very lengthy process and establishing ownership, how we have done that as in the beginning, very naively started, here's a document, here are all the data assets, what is probably the nearest neighbor who can actually take care of that. And then we, we moved it over. But the problem here is that all these things is kind of technical debt, right? It's not really properly documented, pretty unstable. It was built in a very inconsistent way over years. And these people that built this thing have already left the company. So this is actually not a nice thing that you want to see and people build up a certain resistance, even if they have actually bought into this idea of domain ownership. So if you ask me these learnings, what needs to happen is first, the company needs to really understand what our core business concept that we have the need to have this mapping from this other core business concept that we have. These are the domain teams who are owning this concept, and then actually linked that to the, the assets and integrate that better, but suppose understanding how we can evolve, actually the data assets and new data builds things new and the, in this piece and the domain, but also how can we address reduction of technical depth and stabilizing what we have already. >> Thank you for that Christoph. So I want to turn a direction here and talk Clemence about governance. And I know that's an area that's passionate, you're passionate about. I pulled this slide from your deck, which I kind of messed up a little bit, sorry for that. But, but, but by the way, we're going to publish a link to the full video that you guys did. So we'll share that with folks, but it's one of the most challenging aspects of data mesh. If you're going to decentralize, you, you quickly realize this could be the wild west, as we talked about all over again. So how are you approaching governance? There's a lot of items on this slide that are, you know, underscore the complexity, whether it's privacy compliance, et cetera. So, so how did you approach this? >> It's yeah, it's about connecting those dots, right? So the aim of the data governance program is to promote the autonomy of every team while still ensuring that everybody has the right interoperability. So when we want to move from the wild west, riding horses to a civilized way of transport, I can take the example of modern street traffic. Like when all participants can maneuver independently, and as long as they follow the same rules and standards, everybody can remain compatible with each other and understand and learn from each other so we can avoid car crashes. So when I go from country to country, I do understand what the street infrastructure means. How do I drive my car? I can also read the traffic lights and the different signals. So likewise, as a business in HelloFresh we do operate autonomously and consequently need to follow those external and internal rules and standards set forth by the tradition in which we operate. So in order to prevent a, a car crash, we need to at least ensure compliance with regulations, to account for societies and our customers' increasing concern with data protection and privacy. So teaching and advocating this imaging, evangelizing this to everyone in the company was a key community or communication strategy. And of course, I mean, I mentioned data privacy, external factors, the same goes for internal regulations and processes to help our colleagues to adapt for this very new environment. So when I mentioned before, the new way of thinking, the new way of dealing and managing data, this of course implies that we need new processes and regulations for our colleagues as well. In a nutshell, then this means that data governance provides a framework for managing our people, the processes and technology and culture around our data traffic. And that governance must come together in order to have this effective program providing at least a common denominator is especially critical for shared data sets, which we have across our different geographies managed, and shared applications on shared infrastructure and applications. And as then consumed by centralized processes, for example, master data, everything, and all the metrics and KPIs, which are also used for a central steering. It's a big change, right? And our ultimate goal is to have this non-invasive federated, automated and computational governance. And for that, we can't just talk about it. We actually have to go deep and use case by use case and QC by PUC and generate learnings and learnings with the different teams. And this would be a classical approach of identifying the target structure, the target status, match it with the current status, by identifying together with the business teams, with the different domains and have a risk assessment, for example, to increase transparency because a lot of teams, they might not even know what kind of situation they might be. And this is where this training and this piece of data literacy comes into place, where we go in and trade based on the findings, based on the most valuable use case. And based on that, help our teams to do this change, to increase their capability. I just told a little bit more, I wouldn't say hand-holding, but a lot of guidance. >> Can I kind of kind of chime in quickly and (mumbled) below me, I mean, there's a lot of governance piece, but I think that is important. And if you're talking about documentation, for example, yes, we can go from team to team and tell these people, hey, you have to document your data assets and data catalog, or you have to establish a data contract and so on and forth. But if we would like to build data products at scale, following actual governance, we need to think about automation, right? We need to think about a lot of things that we can learn from engineering before, and just starts as simple things. Like if we would like to build up trust in our data products, right? And actually want to apply the same rigor and the best practices that we know from engineering. There are things that we can do. And we should probably think about what we can copy. And one example might be so the level of service level agreements, so that level objectives. So the level of indicators, right, that represent on a, on an engineering level, right? Are we providing services? They're representing the promises we make to our customer and to our consumers. These are the internal objectives that help us to keep those promises. And actually these audits of, of how we are tracking ourselves, how we are doing. And this is just one example of where I think the federated governance, governance comes into play, right? In an ideal world, you should not just talk about data as a product, but also data product that's code. That'd be say, okay, as most, as much as possible, right? Give the engineers the tool that they are familiar with, and actually not ask the product managers, for example, to document the data assets in the data catalog, but make it part of the configuration has as, as a, as a CDCI continuous delivery pipeline, as we typically see in other engineering, tasks through it and services maybe say, okay, there is configuration, we can think about PII, we can think about data quality monitoring, we can think about the ingestion data catalog and so on and forth. But I think ideally in a data product goals become a sort of templates that can be deployed and are actually rejected or verified at build time before we actually make them and deploy them to production. >> Yeah so it's like DevOps for data product. So, so I'm envisioning almost a three-phase approach to governance. And you're kind of, it sounds like you're in the early phase of it, call it phase zero, where there's learning, there's literacy, there's training education, there's kind of self-governance. And then there's some kind of oversight, some, a lot of manual stuff going on, and then you, you're trying to process builders at this phase and then you codify it and then you can automate it. Is that fair? >> Yeah. I would rather think, think about automation as early as possible in a way, and yes, it needs to be separate rules, but then actually start actually use case by use case. Is there anything that small piece that we can already automate? If just possible roll that out at the next extended step-by-step. >> Is there a role though, that adjudicates that? Is there a central, you know, chief state officer who's responsible for making sure people are complying or is it, how do you handle it? >> I mean, from a, from a, from a platform perspective, yes. This applies in to, to implement certain pieces, that we are saying are important and actually would like to implement, however, that is actually working very closely with the governance department, So it's Clemence's piece to understand that defy the policies that needs to be implemented. >> So good. So Clemence essentially, it's, it's, it's your responsibility to make sure that the policy is being followed. And then as you were saying, Christoph, you want to compress the time to automation as fast as possible. Is that, is that-- >> Yeah, so it's a really, it's a, what needs to be really clear is that it's always a split effort, right? So you can't just do one or the other thing, but there is some that really goes hand in hand because for the right information, for the right engineering tooling, we need to have the transparency first. I mean, code needs to be coded. So we kind of need to operate on the same level with the right understanding. So there's actually two things that are important, which is one it's policies and guidelines, but not only that, because more importantly or equally important is to align with the end-user and tech teams and engineering and really bridge between business value business teams and the engineering teams. >> Got it. So just a couple more questions, because we got to wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about the business outcome. I know it's hard to quantify and I'll talk about that in a moment, but, but major learnings, we've got some of the challenges that, that you cited. I'll just put them up here. We don't have to go detailed into this, but I just wanted to share with some folks, but my question, I mean, this is the advice for your peers question. If you had to do it differently, if you had a do over or a Mulligan, as we like to say for you, golfers, what, what would you do differently? >> I mean, I, can we start with, from, from the transformational challenge that understanding that it's also high load of cultural exchange. I think this is, this is important that a particular communication strategy needs to be put into place and people really need to be supported, right? So it's not that we go in and say, well, we have to change into, towards data mash, but naturally it's the human nature, nature, nature, we are kind of resistant to change, right? And (mumbles) uncomfortable. So we need to take that away by training and by communicating. Chris, you might want to add something to that. >> Definitely. I think the point that I've also made before, right? We need to acknowledge that data mesh it's an architectural scale, right? If you're looking for something which is necessary by huge companies who are vulnerable, that are product at scale. I mean, Dave, you mentioned that right, there are a lot of advantages to have a centralized team, but at some point it may make sense to actually decentralize here. And at this point, right, if you think about data mesh, you have to recognize that you're not building something on a green field. And I think there's a big learning, which is also reflected on the slide is, don't underestimate your baggage. It's typically is you come to a point where the old model doesn't work anymore. And as had a fresh write, we lost the trust in our data. And actually we have seen certain risks of slowing down our innovation. So we triggered that, this was triggering the need to actually change something. So at this transition applies that you took, we have a lot of technical depth accumulated over years. And I think what we have learned is that potentially we have, de-centralized some assets too early. This is not actually taking into account the maturity of the team. We are actually investigating too. And now we'll be actually in the face of correcting pieces of that one, right? But I think if you, if you, if you start from scratch, you have to understand, okay, is all my teams actually ready for taking on this new, this new capability? And you have to make sure that this is decentralization. You build up these capabilities and the teams, and as Clemence has mentioned, right? Make sure that you take the, the people on your journey. I think these are the pieces that also here it comes with this knowledge gap, right? That we need to think about hiring literacy, the technical depth I just talked about. And I think the, the last piece that I would add now, which is not here on the slide deck is also from our perspective, we started on the analytical layer because it was kind of where things are exploding, right? This is the bit where people feel the pain. But I think a lot of the efforts that we have started to actually modernize the current stage and data products, towards data mesh, we've understood that it always comes down basically to a proper shape of our operational plan. And I think what needs to happen is I think we got through a lot of pains, but the learning here is this needs to really be an, a commitment from the company. It needs to have an end to end. >> I think that point, that last point you made is so critical because I, I, I hear a lot from the vendor community about how they're going to make analytics better. And that's not, that's not unimportant, but, but true data product thinking and decentralized data organizations really have to operationalize in order to scale it. So these decisions around data architecture and organization, they're fundamental and lasting, it's not necessarily about an individual project ROI. They're going to be projects, sub projects, you know, within this architecture. But the architectural decision itself is organizational it's cultural and, and what's the best approach to support your business at scale. It really speaks to, to, to what you are, who you are as a company, how you operate and getting that right, as we've seen in the success of data-driven companies is, yields tremendous results. So I'll, I'll, I'll ask each of you to give, give us your final thoughts and then we'll wrap. Maybe. >> Just can I quickly, maybe just jumping on this piece, what you have mentioned, right, the target architecture. If you talk about these pieces, right, people often have this picture of (mumbled). Okay. There are different kinds of stages. We have (incomprehensible speech), we have actually a gesture layer, we have a storage layer, transformation layer, presentation data, and then we are basically putting a lot of technology on top of that. That's kind of our target architecture. However, I think what we really need to make sure is that we have these different kinds of views, right? We need to understand what are actually the capabilities that we need to know, what new goals, how does it look and feel from the different kinds of personas and experience view. And then finally that should actually go to the, to the target architecture from a technical perspective. Maybe just to give an outlook what we are planning to do, how we want to move that forward. Yes. Actually based on our strategy in the, in the sense of we would like to increase the maturity as a whole across the entire company. And this is kind of a framework around the business strategy and it's breaking down into four pillars as well. People meaning the data culture, data literacy, data organizational structure and so on. If you're talking about governance, as Clemence had actually mentioned that right, compliance, governance, data management, and so on, you're talking about technology. And I think we could talk for hours for that one it's around data platform, data science platform. And then finally also about enablements through data. Meaning we need to understand data quality, data accessibility and applied science and data monetization. >> Great. Thank you, Christoph. Clemence why don't you bring us home. Give us your final thoughts. >> Okay. I can just agree with Christoph that important is to understand what kind of maturity people have, but I understand we're at the maturity level, where a company, where people, our organization is, and really understand what does kind of, it's just kind of a change applies to that, those four pillars, for example, what needs to be tackled first. And this is not very clear from the very first beginning (mumbles). It's kind of like green field, you come up with must wins to come up with things that you really want to do out of theory and out of different white papers. Only if you really start conducting the first initiatives, you do understand that you are going to have to put those thoughts together. And where do I miss out on one of those four different pillars, people process technology and governance, but, and then that can often the integration like doing step by step, small steps, by small steps, not pulling the ocean where you're capable, really to identify the gaps and see where either you can fill the gaps or where you have to increase maturity first and train people or increase your tech stack. >> You know, HelloFresh is an excellent example of a company that is innovating. It was not born in Silicon Valley, which I love. It's a global company. And, and I got to ask you guys, it seems like it's just an amazing place to work. Are you guys hiring? >> Yes, definitely. We do. As, as mentioned right as well as one of these aspects distributing and actually hiring as an entire company, specifically for data. I think there are a lot of open roles, so yes, please visit or our page from data engineering, data, product management, and Clemence has a lot of roles that you can speak to about. But yes. >> Guys, thanks so much for sharing with theCUBE audience, you're, you're pioneers, and we look forward to collaborations in the future to track progress, and really want to thank you for your time. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much Dave. >> And thank you for watching theCUBE's startup showcase made possible by AWS. This is Dave Volante. We'll see you next time. (cheerful music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Think brought to you by IBM. >> Hi, there, this is Dave Vellante. We're back at the IBM Think 2020 Digital Event Experience are socially responsible and distant. I'm here in the studios in Marlborough, our team in Palo Alto. We've been going wall to wall coverage of IBM Think, Kit Chee here is the Vice President, and general manager of Cloud and Enterprise sales at Intel. Kit, thanks for coming on. Good to see you. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you for having me on. >> You're welcome, and Evaristus Mainsah, Mainsah is here. Mainsah, he is the general manager of the IBM Cloud Pack Ecosystem for the IBM Cloud. Evaristus, it's good to see you again. Thank you very much, I appreciate your time. >> Thank you, Dave. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. >> You're welcome, so Kit, let me start with you. How are you guys doing? You know, there's this pandemic, never seen it before. How're things where you are? >> Yeah, so we were quite fortunate. Intel's had an epidemic leadership team. For about 15 years now, we have a team consisting of medical safety and operational professionals, and this same team has, who has navigated as across several other health issues like bad flu, Ebola, Zika and each one and one virus then navigating us at this point with this pandemic. Obviously, our top priority as it would be for IBM is protecting the health and well being of employees while keeping the business running for our customers. The company has taken the following measures to take care of it direct and indirect workforce, Dave and to ensure business continuity throughout the developing situation. They're from areas like work from home policies, keeping hourly workers home and reimbursing for daycare, elderly care, helping with WiFi policies. So that's been what we've been up to Intel's manufacturing and supply chain operations around the world world are working hard to meet demand and we are collaborating with supply pains of our customers and partners globally as well. And more recently, we have about $16 Million to support communities, from frontline health care workers and technology initiatives like online education, telemedicine and compute need to research. So that's what we've been up to date. Pretty much, you know, busy. >> You know, every society that come to you, I have to say my entire career have been in the technology business and you know, sometimes you hear negative toward the big tech but, but I got to say, just as Kit was saying, big tech has really stepped up in this crisis. IBM has been no different and, you know, tech for good and I was actually I'm really proud. How are you doing in New York City? >> Evaristus: No, thank you, Dave, for that, you know, we are, we're doing great and, and our focus has been absolutely the same, so obviously, because we provide services to clients. At a time like this, your clients need you even more, but we need to focus on our employees to make sure that their health and their safety and their well being is protected. And so we've taken this really seriously, and actually, we have two ways of doing this. One of them is just on to purpose as a, as a company, on our clients, but the other is trying to activate the ecosystem because problems of this magnitude require you to work across a broad ecosystem to, to bring forth in a solution that are long lasting, for example, we have a call for code, which where we go out and we ask developers to use their skills and open source technologies to help solve some technical problems. This year, the focus was per AVADA initiatives around computing resources, how you track the Coronavirus and other services that are provided free of charge to our clients. Let me give you a bit more color, so, so IBM recently formed the high performance computing consortium made up of the feYderal government industry and academic leaders focus on providing high performance computing to solve the COVID-19 problem. So we're currently we have 33 members, now we have 27 active products, deploying something like 400 teraflops as our petaflop 400 petaflops of compute to solve the problem. >> Well, it certainly is challenging times, but at the same time, you're both in the, in the sweet spot, which is Cloud. I've talked to a number of CIOs who have said, you know, this is really, we had a cloud strategy before but we're really accelerating our cloud strategy now and, and we see this as sort of a permanent effect. I mean, Kit, you guys, big, big on ecosystem, you, you want frankly, a level playing field, the more optionality that you can give to customers, you know, the better and Cloud is really been exploding and you guys are powering, you know, all the world's Clouds. >> We are, Dave and honestly, that's a huge responsibility that we undertake. Before the pandemic, we saw the market through the lens of four key mega trends and the experiences we are all having currently now deepens our belief in the importance of addressing these mega trends, but specifically, we see marketplace needs around key areas of cloudification of everything below point, the amount of online activities that have spiked just in the last 60 days. It's a testimony of that. Pervasive AI is the second big area that we have seen and we are now resolute on investments in that area, 5G network transformation and the edge build out. Applications run the business and we know enterprise IT faces challenges when deploying applications that require data movement between Clouds and Cloud native technologies like containers and Kubernetes will be key enablers in delivering end to end data analytics, AI, machine learning and other critical workloads and Cloud environments at the edge. Pairing Intel's data centric portfolio, including Intel's obtain SSPs with Red Hat, Openshift, and IBM Cloud Paks, enterprise can now break through storage bottlenecks and have unconstrained data availability in the hybrid and multicloud environments, so we're pretty happy with the progress we're making that together with IBM. >> Yeah, Evaristus, I mean, you guys are making some big bets. I've, you know, written and discussed in my breaking analysis, I think a lot of people misunderstand IBM Cloud, Ginni Rometty arm and a bow said, hey, you know, we're after only 20% of the workloads are in cloud, we're going after the really difficult to move workloads and the hybrid workloads, that's really the fourth foundation that Arvin you know, talks about, that you and IBM has built, you know, your mainframes, you have middleware services, and in hybrid Cloud is really that fourth sort of platform that you're building out, but you're making some bets in AI. You got other services in the Cloud like, like blockchain, you know, quantum, we've been having really interesting discussions around quantum, so I wonder if you can talk a little bit about sort of where you're allocating resources, some of the big bets that, that you're making for the next decade. >> Well, thank you very much, Dave, for that. I think what we're seeing with clients is that there's increasing focus on and, and really an acceptance, that the best way to take advantage of the Cloud is through a hybrid cloud strategy, infused with data, so it's not just the Cloud itself, but actually what you need to do to data in order to make sure that you can really, truly transform yourself digitally, to enable you to, to improve your operations, and in use your data to improve the way that you work and improve the way that you serve your clients. And what we see is and you see studies out there that say that if you adopt a hybrid cloud strategy, instead of 2.5 times more effective than a public cloud only strategy, and Why is that? Well, you get thi6ngs such as you know, the opportunity to move your application, the extent to which you move your applications to the Cloud. You get things such as you know, reduction in, in, in risk, you, you get a more flexible architecture, especially if you focus on open certification, reduction and certification reduction, some of the tools that you use, and so we see clients looking at that. The other thing that's really important, especially in this moment is business agility, and resilience. Our business agility says that if my customers used to come in, now, they can't come in anymore, because we need them to stay at home, we still need to figure out a way to serve them and we write our applications quickly enough in order to serve this new client, service client in a new way. And well, if your applications haven't been modernized, even if you've moved to the Cloud, you don't have the opportunity to do that and so many clients that have made that transformation, figure out they're much more agile, they can move more easily in this environment, and we're seeing the whole for clients saying yes, I do need to move to the Cloud, but I need somebody to help improve my business agility, so that I can transform, I can change with the needs of my clients, and with the demands of competition and this leads you then to, you know, what sort of platform do you need to enable you to do this, it's something that's open, so that you can write that application once you can run it anywhere, which is why I think the IBM position with our ecosystem and Red Hat with this open container Kubernetes environment that allows you to write application once and deploy it anywhere, is really important for clients in this environment, especially, and the Cloud Paks which is developed, which I, you know, General Manager of the Cloud Pak Ecosystem, the logic of the Cloud Paks is exactly that you'll want plans and want to modernize one, write the applications that are cloud native so that they can react more quickly to market conditions, they can react more quickly to what the clients need and they, but if they do so, they're not unlocked in a specific infrastructure that keeps them away from some of the technologies that may be available in other Clouds. So we have talked about it blockchain, we've got, you know, Watson AI, AI technologies, which is available on our Cloud. We've got the weather, company assets, those are key asset for, for many, many clients, because weather influences more than we realize, so, but if you are locked in a Cloud that didn't give you access to any of those, because you hadn't written on the same platform, you know, that's not something that you you want to support. So Red Hat's platform, which is our platform, which is open, allows you to write your application once and deploy it anyways, particularly our customers in this particular environment together with the data pieces that come on top of that, so that you can scale, scale, because, you know, you've got six people, but you need 600 of them. How do you scale them or they can use data and AI in it? >> Okay, this must be music to your ears, this whole notion of you know, multicloud because, you know, Intel's pervasive and so, because the more Clouds that are out there, the better for you, better for your customers, as I said before, the more optionality. Can you6 talk a little bit about the rela6tionship today between IBM and Intel because it's obviously evolved over the years, PC, servers, you know, other collaboration, nearly the Cloud is, you know, the latest 6and probably the most rel6evant, you know, part of your, your collaboration, but, but talk more about what that's like you guys are doing together that's, that'6s interesting and relevant. >> You know, IBM and Intel have had a very rich history of collaboration starting with the invention of the PC. So for those of us who may take a PC for granted, that was an invention over 40 years ago, between the two companies, all the way to optimizing leadership, IBM software like BB2 to run the best on Intel's data center products today, right? But what's more germane today is the Red Hat piece of the study and how that plays into a partnership with IBM going forward, Intel was one of Red Hat's earliest investors back in 1998, again, something that most people may not realize that we were in early investment with Red Hat. And we've been a longtime pioneer of open source. In fact, Levin Shenoy, Intel's Executive Vice President of Data Platforms Group was part of COBOL Commies pick up a Red Hat summit just last week, you should definitely go listen to that session, but in summary, together Intel and Red Hat have made commercial open source viable and enterprise and worldwide competing globally. Basically, now we've65 used by nearly every vertical and horizontal industr6y. We are bringing our customers choice, scalability and speed of innovation for key technologies today, such as security, Telco, NFV, and containers, or even at ease and most recently Red Hat Openshift. We're very excited to see IBM Cloud Packs, for example, standardized on top of Openshift as that builds the foundation for IBM chapter two, and allows for Intel's value to scale to the Cloud packs and ultimately IBM customers. Intel began partnering with IBM on what is now called Pax over two years ago and we 6are committed to that success and scaling that, try ecosystem, hardware partners, ISVs and our channel. >> Yeah, so theCUBE by the way, covered Red Hat summit last week, Steve Minima and I did a detailed analysis. It was awesome, like if we do say so ourselves, but awesome in the sense of, it allowed us to really sort of unpack what's going on at Red Hat and what's happening at IBM. Evaristus, so I want to come back to you on this Cloud Pack, you got, it's, it's the kind of brand that you guys have, you got Cloud Packs all over the place, you got Cloud Packs for applications, data, integration, automation, multicloud management, what do we need to know about Cloud pack? What are the relevant components there? >> Evaristus: I think the key components is so this is think of this as you know, software that is designed that is Cloud native is designed for specific core use cases and it's built on Red Hat Enterprise Linux with Red Hat Openshift container Kubernetes environment, and then on top of that, so you get a set of common services that look right across all of them and then on top of that, you've got specific both open source and IBM software that deals with specific plant situations. So if you're dealing with applications, for example, the open source and IBM software would be the run times that you need to write and, and to blow applications to have setups. If you're dealing with data, then you've got Cloud Pack to data. The foundation is still Red Hat Enterprise Linux sitting on top of with Red Hat Openshift container Kubernetes environment sitting on top of that providing you with a set of common services and then you'll get a combination of IBM zone open, so IBM software as well as open source will have third party software that sits on top of that, as well as all of our AI infrastructure that sits on top of that and machine learning, to enable you to do everything that you need to do, data to get insights updates, you've got automation to speed up and to enable us to do work more efficiently, more effectively, to make your smart workers better, to make management easier, to help management manage work and processes, and then you've got multicloud management that allows you to see from a single pane, all of your applications that you've deployed in the different Cloud, because the idea here, of course, is that not all sitting in the same Cloud. Some of it is on prem, some of it is in other Cloud, and you want to be able to see and deploy applications across all of those. And then you've got the Cloud Pack to security, which has a combination of third party offerings, as well as ISV offerings, as well as AI offerings. Again, the structure is the same, REL, Red Hat Openshift and then you've got the software that enables you to manage all aspects of security and to deal with incidents when, when they arise. So that gives you data applications and then there's integration, as every time you start writing an application, you need to integrate, you need to access data security from someplace, you need to bring two pipes together for them to communicate and we use a Cloud Pack for integration to allow us to do that. You can open up API's and expose those API so others writing application and gain access to those API's. And again, this idea of resilience, this idea of agility, so you can make changes and you can adapt data things about it. So that's what the Cloud Pack provides for you and Intel has been an absolutely fantastic partner for us. One of the things that we do with Intel, of course, is to, to work on the reference architectures to help our certification program for our hardware OEMs so that we can scale that process, get many more OEMs adopt and be ready for the Cloud Packs and then we work with them on some of the ISV partners and then right up front. >> Got it, let's talk about the edge. Kity, you mentioned 5G. I mean it's a really exciting time, (laughs) You got windmills, you got autonomous vehicles, you got factories, you got to ship, you know, shipping containers. I mean, everything's getting instrumented, data everywhere and so I'm interested in, let's start with Intel's point of view on the edge, how that's going to evolve, you know what it means to Cloud. >> You know, Dave, it's, its definitely the future and we're excited to partner with IBM here. In addition to enterprise edge, the communication service providers think of the Telcos and take advantage of running standardized open software at the Telco edge, enabling a range of new workloads via scalable services, something that, you know, didn't happen in the past, right? Earlier this year, Intel announced a new C on second generation, scalable, atom based processes targeting the 5G radio access network, so this is a new area for us, in terms of investments going to 5G ran by deploying these new technologies, with Cloud native platforms like Red Hat Openshift and IBM Cloud Packs, comm service providers can now make full use of their network investments and bring new services such as Artificial Intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality and gaming to the market. We've only touched the surface as it comes to 5G and Telco but IBM Red Hat and Intel compute together that I would say, you know, this space is super, super interesting, as more developed with just getting started. >> Evaristus, what do you think this means for Cloud and how that will evolve? Is this sort of a new Cloud that will form at the edge? Obviously, a lot of data is going to stay at the edge, probably new architectures are going to emerge and again, to me, it's all about data, you can create more data, push more data back to the Cloud, so you can model it. Some of the data is going to have to be done in real time at the edge, but it just really extends the network to new horizons. >> Evaristus: It does exactly that, Dave and we think of it and which is why I thought it will impact the same, right? You wouldn't be surprised to see that the platform is based on open containers and that Kubernetes is container environment provided by Red Hat and so whether your data ends up living at the edge or your data lives in a private data center, or it lives in some public Cloud, and how it flows between all of them. We want to make it easy for our clients to be able to do that. So this is very exciting for us. We just announced IBM Edge Application Manager that allows you to basically deploy and manage applications at endpoints of all these devices. So we're not talking about 2030, we're talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands. And in fact, we're working with, we're getting divided Intel's device onboarding, which will enable us to use that because you can get that and you can onboard devices very, very easily at scale, which if you get that combined with IBM Edge Application Manager, then it helps you onboard the devices and it helps you divide both central devices. So we think this is really important. We see lots of work that moving on the edge devices, many of these devices and endpoints now have sufficient compute to be able to run them, but right now, if they are IoT devices, the data has been transferred to hundreds of miles away to some data center to be processed and enormous pass and then only 1% of that actually is useful, right? 99% of it gets thrown away. Some of that actually has data residency requirements, so you may not be able to move the data to process, so why wouldn't you just process the data where the data is created around your analytics where the data is spread, or you have situations that are disconnected as well. So you can't actually do that. You don't want to stop this still in the supermarket, because there's, you lost connectivity with your data center and so the importance of being able to work offline and IBM Edge Application Manager actually allows you so it's tournament so you can do all of this without using lots of people because it's a process that is all sort or automated, but you can work whether you're connected or you're disconnected, and then you get replication when you get really, really powerful for. >> All right, I think the developer model is going to be really interesting here. There's so many new use cases and applications. Of course, Intel's always had a very strong developer ecosystem. You know, IBM understands the importance of developers. Guys, we've got to wrap up, but I wonder if you could each, maybe start with Kit. Give us your sense as to where you want to see this, this partnership go, what can we expect over the next, you know, two to five years and beyond? >> I think it's just the area of, you know, 5G, and how that plays out in terms of edge build out that we just touched on. I think that's a really interesting space, what Evaristus has said is spot on, you know, the processing, and the analytics at the edge is still fairly nascent today and that's growing. So that's one area, building out the Cloud for the different enterprise applications is the other one and obviously, it's going to be a hybrid world. It's not just a public Cloud world on prem world. So the whole hybrid build out What I call hybrid to DoD zero, it's a policy and so the, the work that both of us need to do IBM and Intel will be critical to ensure that, you know, enterprise IT, it has solutions across the hybrid sector. >> Great. Evaristus, give us the last word, bring us home. >> Evaristus: And I would agree with that as well, Kit. I will say this work that you do around the Intel's market ready solutions, right, where we can bring our ecosystem together to do even more on Edge, some of these use cases, this work that we're doing around blockchain, which I think you know, again, another important piece of work and, and I think what we really need to do is to focus on helping clients because many of them are working through those early cases right now, identify use cases that work and without commitment to open standards, using exactly the same standard across like what you've got on your open retail initiative, which we're going to do, I think is going to be really important to help you out scale, but I wanted to just add one more thing, Dave, if you if you permit me. >> Yeah. >> Evaristus: In this COVID era, one of the things that we've been able to do for customers, which has been really helpful, is providing free technology for 90 days to enable them to work in an offline situation to work away from the office. One example, for example, is the just the ability to transfer files and bandwidth, new bandwidth is an issue because the parents and the kids are all working from home, we have a protocol, IBM Aspera, which will make available customers for 90 days at no cost. You don't need to give us your credit card, just log on and use it to improve the way that you work. So your bandwidth feels as if you are in the office. We have what's an assistant that is now helping clients in more than 18 countries that keep the same thing, basically providing COVID information. So those are all available. There's a slew of offerings that we have. We just want listeners to know that they can go on the IBM website and they can gain those offerings they can deploy and use them now. >> That's huge. I knew about the 90 day program, I didn't realize a sparrow was part of that and that's really important because you're like, Okay, how am I going to get this file there? And so thank you for, for sharing that and guys, great conversation. You know, hopefully next year, we could be face to face even if we still have to be socially distant, but it was really a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much. Stay safe, and good stuff. I appreciate it. >> Evaristus: Thank you very much, Dave. Thank you, Kit. Thank you. >> Thank you, thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE, our wall to wall coverage of the IBM Think 2020 Digital Event Experience. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> That's sort of what I bring, is an ability to catalyze the conversation, and share that knowledge with others in the community. Our philosophy is everybody expert in something, everybody is passionate about something, and has real deep knowledge about that something. What we want to focus in on that area and extract that knowledge and share it with our communities. This is Dave Vellante, thanks for watching theCUBE. (smooth music) >> Live from Orlando, Florida, it's theCUBE. Covering Microsoft Ignite. Brought to you by Cohesity, and theCUBE's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite here in Orlando, Florida. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, co-hosting with Stu Miniman. We have two guests for this segment, we have Anna Chu, who is a Senior Product Marketing Manager at Microsoft and Shona Chee, Product Marketing Manager Diversity and Tech Community Lead. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Happy to be here! >> So, you are dressed very similarly. (laughs) >> Yes, we are. >> Yes, so we're going to get into diversity, because I want to go there, but let me start with you, Anna. So, you are really in charge of the community within the vast ecosystem of Microsoft. That's a big job. So how do you go about it? What's your approach to the Microsoft Community? >> Gosh, well, it's a lot of work. I've been leading the community efforts at Microsoft Ignite for the past two and a half, three years. And ultimately, it's all about the people in the room. These are IT pros, these are developers; people who care about technology. It's also end users as well; people who are business-focused. So we really want to make sure that we're delivering content that is going to help them go back to their communities, go back to their offices and be able to share all that knowledge back into the workplace. >> And Shona, so then you are within a slice of that community. So focusing on diversity and tech. So, what is your, how do you operate? >> So we see diversity as really closely integrated with technology. So we are a community that lives on the tech community. So there's a direct link, AKA dot MS Life Diversity and Tech, but what we're pretty much doing is bringing people together. All the tech communities to talk about important topics of diversity inclusion. So, traditionally, it's always been very HR driven, a lot about talent and acquisition and recruitment, but for us its really about what about the people in career, how do we help them feel like they belong, and they're apart of this ecosystem. So that's where we see the symbiotic relationship. >> And I have to say that it's my first time to the show. I've watched it from afar, I knew lots of people that were Microsoft MVPs over the years, very impressed. Maybe give our audience a little bit about what goes on in the show. You got all the podcasts going, there's meet-ups, there, you know, lots of good flare you're giving out at the show, and everything else like that. So, what's everybody missing that didn't come to this community gathering? >> Gosh, I hope I didn't miss out on anything, really. I really hope that we were as inclusive as possible. But every year we try and make the event more community infused than ever before. In previous years, we just really focused on content that would be live on a stage, such as at a theater or a breakout, but we really want to add a little bit more of the networking side of things too this year. So we've invested in the meetups, which are more formalized ways for the community to find their people. But we've also invested in idea swaps, such as a brand new concept that we've landed here in Microsoft Ignite, where we have group idea swaps where people are putting together topics that they want to meet with others about. And we also want to facilitate more one on one networking because personal relationships are such a critical part to being professionally strong in your career. You can't be successful without other people. So we really want to enable Ignite to be that platform. We've got people from all around the world. Shona's got this amazing pin wall in the Diversity and Tech area that showcases where everyone is coming from. There are people coming from really remote areas, to people all parts of Western Europe and the US, and I think there's a lot to be gained from people being able to find each other through Ignite. >> And what we always tell attendees is everything is live-streamed or recorded in terms of sessions, so the biggest take away here is really people and communities, so we really encourage people to meet-up, build valuable connections, just talk about topics that might be uncomfortable so that we can learn from it. >> Such a great point there. It's funny it is one of those pro tips out there. First of all, when there's a really big convention center, and there's a lot of people, there's certain sessions that you want to be at. Maybe you want to talk to the speaker in due but, when you find time on the plane ride back or spend a little time in that suite, you can go re-watch some of it, the people is really what drives everybody to the event. >> Where else would you meet 25,000 people in one venue, right? So it's really exciting. >> Shona you said talk about topics that are a little uncomfortable, those are the hardest things to talk about, particularly with a group of strangers. So what has been your experience at this conference, what are people saying that might count as that? >> Right, so the recent inclusion has really come front and center in terms of topics that's hot in the IT industry in particular. So traditionally people think about diverse inclusion as gender, right? Men and women. But, we're seeing that it's a lot more multi faceted than that. We're talking really about intersectionality of identities, all of us hold multiple identities, I'm a woman in tech, I'm an IT professional, I'm a millennial. So there's multi areas that we deal with, but we need to address each and every one of them. So for example, this year we have a lot of sessions focused on LGBTQ, and we also have our partners talking about this topic as well, and just really getting people in a room to say help me learn more about this area that I'm not that familiar with, or let's talk about race and culture. What do people in your culture do? What is the norm, what is acceptable? And that's why we also partnered with Tech Women, it's a US department of state initiative where we invite women from developing countries to come share their experience being an IT pro in those countries like Algeria, Tunisia, Lebanon. So we really want to give them platform to interact with attendees, but also giving mostly North American and European customers a chance to hear from someone in a completely different cultural setting. >> And just talking about all the various identities that we all encapsulate. Is the workplace the right place to talk about those things? That is another question too, in the sense of we are bringing our full self to work and we are spending so many hours at work. But at the same time, what is the right balance, do you think? >> Yeah, I think that's a great point. On the Monday leadership panel, we actually talk about leadership and building inclusive work cultures. Like you said, we spend so much time in the office, sometimes our coworkers become our family almost, right? How do we create and environment where people feel like they belong, where they feel like they can be genuine and not feel like they have to hide something, because in-authenticity really shows, and we want to encourage people to just feel like they have a safe place to express themselves. >> So in terms of advocating for yourself at work, I know that's another big theme that is in the diversity and tech workshops, what is some advice that you have for women, for underrepresented minorities, for people of various sexual orientations to make sure that they are having there careers that they are capable of having, and not being and not coming up against other biases and challenges. >> So in the Tuesday session, Donna Secaur actually talked about this, which was a great point, she said, you can write your own story, you can't control what people say about you, but you can control what's out there in the media, you can control how you do your social media profiles, and I think it's really encouraging people to take a look at what's online. Brand yourself how you want people to see you, and be proud of it, I think that's one of the biggest points. >> I also think that Microsoft Ignite brings so many people together, but they all have a common mutual passion which is about technology, and if that manages to bridge build bridges between people who may not necessarily get to know each other, so people from different religions or from different ethnic backgrounds, who don't really have that opportunity to get to know each other, and then they find a common passion, or they also face the same challenge on how to govern teams or things like that then suddenly we're doing a lot to help, build bridges and just drive that human connection so we can get beyond some of those challenges that we're facing in 2018. >> One of the ideas that bridges both community and diversity is career paths. I know a lot of the shows they go is how're we taking somebody from a certain world that growth mindset that we hear Sasha talking about how're you looking to address that and how is that discussed in the communities? >> Gosh, we've just launch a completely new Microsoft learned platform as well, one of the things that is really important ab6out learning is actually learning through community too. And if we can enable people to find their own people by helping them share best practices and tips, and we've made huge in roads there. So one of the things we've run as part of Microsoft Ignite, are community socials. So community socials are a way for people to find their people. So we've hosted ones for Microsoft Exchange an6d Outlook and we can make an element of fun out of that too, so there seems to be a certain personality in that community called squeaky lobster, I don't know if you've heard of squeaky lobster. It's some sort of inside joke that even I don't understand, but apparently he's a personality, and he's here to unite the community together, and then people will come together, and they'll talk about Exchange 2019, and they'll talk about how that impacts other parts of Office 365 and Microsoft 365, and then they'll talk about all the different ways that they can connect with each other as well. So it's a very amorphous thing. From a learning perspective, we have a lot of things that we can do to create platforms for learning, which is really awesome, but at the end of the day we have to learn through community because it's just IT professionals and developers are having to learn at a crazy pace, faster than they've ever had before. So that's a really big part. >> And I like that you mentioned career paths, because we just partnered with the MVP community to launch a community mentors program, and that's where we partner with over 700 participants all around the world from 65 countries, and over 800 years of combined industry experience, to have mentors work with mentees from other countries, and do a lot of cross sharing, just sharing expertise and best practices. >> And you have your student ambassadors here too. >> So that's a new thing that we've also rolled out at Ignite this year, we've invited seven student ambassadors from three local colleges here, and we invited them to work with our community reporters to push out some exciting video content. So that helps them to get a flavor of what kind of roles are out there in tech. We want to debunk the myth that you have to learn coding to work in technology and that is not true. There are so many amazing IT pro roles out there that we really want to educate people on. >> So the technology industry at this point in time has a very bad reputation in terms of diversity, there's not enough women, there's not enough minorities, there's not enough sexual orientation diversity. Coupled with this real bro culture, what's your best advice for technology companies today to be more inclusive, that's one of Satya Nadella's real guiding principles is embracing diversity, different perspectives, and being inclusive. How do you do it? >> I would say the first thing is really, just take the first step. We're all on a journey, this is a really big hairy issue that we're all working to tackle, and we cannot do this alone, and that's something we've heard consistently with all our partners. We are working together to tackle this as an industry, and I can't speak for other companies, but at Microsoft we have a strong culture of empathy, and as you know from Sasha's key note we're all about empowering people to be the best that they can be, and that is why we've developed code of conduct, we make sure people know what's acceptable, what are the boundaries that we can talk with, but still push the limit and say, hey I want to learn more about your culture, I want to know more about the LGBTQ community, I want to know about inclusive design and accessibility, how do I build technology that is accessible for everybody. So I think it's not easy for sure, even for Microsoft, we are still trying a lot of things for the first time. We learn and we grow from it, and we just keep improving it every year, so we hope that in future Ignites it will be even better. >> And having community members, even individually own being a champion for diversity too, whether it be in their own organization, or in their own user groups that they run, we really want to make sure that they are feeling like I can be an ally for diversity, whether you are someone who is the the typical persona in the IT pro world, which is a white male, and I'm really glad to hear a lot of these stories of people saying you know what, I am going to be that person that's going to step in and say something when I don't think things are right. >> And there are topics that everybody can relate to as well like mental health and wellness, that's an issue that's really come in the spotlight with a lot of stress in the industry. So it doesn't matter whether you're male, female, your gender identity, all of us are human beings. We all feel the same pressures and stress, and we just had that lunch session where literally tears were shed because people felt like I now have space to say I'm struggling with this, can you help me? And I think that's a really powerful thing to even just get started. >> It does require a lot of bravery, I think. Because for me even, I like to be able to find other people that I can relate to, who also share some of the same challenges that I have, and so I think that's the first step really, basically opening the doors and letting people express themselves and then other people are also going to feel like they're included. I think that's really one of the first steps. >> And where better to do it than a community. Finding your people in this space so yeah. >> And I want to ask about the buttons you have on so, yours, Anna's says Ringleader, Shona, game changer. >> Networking ninja >> And Networking ninja! I love it. So can you explain what these mean? >> Yeah so this year we want to try to really interactive button wall and we want people to come, and feel like they can share what's there diversity super powers, so all of us play a really important role, we where many hats from a day to day basis, but we want to know, what do people feel like is there ultimate strength, whether you're a mentor, are you an enabler, are you a supporter, what is it? And these were just great conversation topics, so if I saw that Anna's a Ringleader, I might come up to her and be like, oh that's me too, can we talk and schedule and idea slot? So we just want to create a fun way for people to interact, but another important thing we've launched this year is the pronoun buttons, so we want everybody to feel like they can be comfortable telling people what is the pronoun that they prefer rather than what visually people think they are, so that is something that we've launched this year as well. >> Very cool, very cool. Well thank you both so much for coming on theCube, it was really fun talking to you. >> Thank you for having us. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, for Stu Miniman we will have more of theCUBE's live coverage of Microsoft Ignite coming up in just a little bit. (smooth music)