>> Narrator: "theCUBE's" live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (intro music) >> Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to "theCUBE's" day three coverage of MWC23. Lisa Martin here in Spain, Barcelona, Spain with Dave Nicholson. We're going to have a really interesting conversation next. We're going to really dig into MWC, it's history, where it's going, some of the controversy here. Please welcome our guests. We have Jim Harris, International Best Selling Author of "Blindsided." And Carolina Milanese is here, President and Principle Analyst of creative strategies. Welcome to "theCUBE" guys. Thank you. >> Thanks. So great to be here. >> So this is day three. 80,000 people or so. You guys have a a lot of history up at this event. Caroline, I want to start with you. Talk a little bit about that. This obviously the biggest one in, in quite a few years. People are ready to be back, but there's been some, a lot of news here, but some controversy going on. Give us the history, and your perspective on some of the news that's coming out from this week's event. >> It feels like a very different show. I don't know if I would say growing up show, because we are still talking about networks and mobility, but there's so much more now around what the networks actually empower, versus the network themselves. And a little bit of maybe that's where some of the controversy is coming from, carriers still trying to find their identity, right, of, of what their role is in all there is to do with a connected world. I go back a long way. I go back to when Mobile World Congress was called, was actually called GSM, and it was in Khan. So, you know, we went from France to Spain. But just looking at the last full Mobile World Congress here in Barcelona, in pre-pandemic to now, very different show. We went from a show that was very much focused on mobility and smartphones, to a show that was all about cars. You know, we had cars everywhere, 'cause we were talking about smart cities and connected cars, to now a show this year that is very much focused on B2B. And so a lot of companies that are here to either work with the carriers, or also talk about sustainability for instance, or enable what is the next future evolution of computing with XR and VR. >> So Jim, talk to us a little bit about your background. You, I was doing a little sleuthing on you. You're really focusing on disruptive innovation. We talk about disruption a lot in different industries. We're seeing a lot of disruption in telco. We're seeing a lot of frenemies going on. Give us your thoughts about what you're seeing at this year's event. >> Well, there's some really exciting things. I listened to the keynote from Orange's CEO, and she was complaining that 55% of the traffic on her network is from five companies. And then the CEO of Deutsche Telecom got up, and he was complaining that 60% of the traffic on his network is from six entities. So do you think they coordinated pre, pre-show? But really what they're saying is, these OTT, you know, Netflix and YouTube, they should be paying us for access. Now, this is killer funny. The front page today of the show, "Daily," the CO-CEO of Netflix says, "Hey, we make less profit than the telcos, "so you should be paying us, "not the other way around." You know, we spend half of the money we make just on developing content. So, this is really interesting. The orange CEO said, "We're not challenging net neutrality. "We don't want more taxes." But boom. So this is disruptive. Huge pressure. 67% of all mobile traffic is video, right? So it's a big hog bandwidth wise. So how are they going to do this? Now, I look at it, and the business model for the, the telcos, is really selling sim cards and smartphones. But for every dollar of revenue there, there's five plus dollars in apps, and consulting and everything else. So really, but look at how they're structured. They can't, you know, take somebody who talks to the public and sells sim cards, and turn 'em in, turn 'em in to an app developer. So how are they going to square this circle? So I see some, they're being disrupted because they're sticking to what they've historically done. >> But it's interesting because at the end of the day, the conversation that we are having right now is the conversation that we had 10 years ago, where carriers don't want to just be a dumb pipe, right? And that's what they are now returning to. They tried to be media as well, but that didn't work out for most carriers, right? It is a little bit better in the US. We've seen, you know, some success there. But, but here has been more difficult. And I think that's the, the concern, that even for the next, you know, evolution, that's the, their role. >> So how do they, how do they balance this dumb pipe idea, with the fact that if you make the toll high enough, being a dumb pipe is actually a pretty good job. You know, sit back, collect check, go to the beach, right? So where, where, where, where does this end up? >> Well, I think what's going to happen is, if you see five to 15 X the revenue on top of a pipe, you know, the hyperscalers are going to start going after the business. The consulting companies like PWC, McKinsey, the app developers, they're... So how do you engage those communities as a telco to get more revenue? I think this is a question that they really need to look at. But we tend to stick within our existing business model. I'll just give you one stat that blows me away. Uber is worth more than every taxi cab company in North America added together. And so the taxi industry owns billions in assets in cars and limousines. Uber doesn't own a single vehicle. So having a widely distributed app, is a huge multiplier on valuation. And I look to a company like Safari in Kenya, which developed M-Pesa, which Pesa means mo, it's mobile money in Swahili. And 25% of the country's GDP is facilitated by M-Pesa. And that's not even on smartphones. They're feature phones, Nokia phones. I call them dumb phones, but Nokia would call them "feature phones." >> Yeah. >> So think about that. Like 25, now transactions are very small, and the cut is tiny. But when you're facilitating 25% of a country's GDP, >> Yeah. >> Tiny, over billions of transactions is huge. But that's not the way telcos have historically thought or worked. And so M-Pesa and Safari shows the way forward. What do you think on that? >> I, I think that the experience, and what they can layer on top from a services perspective, especially in the private sector, is also important. I don't, I never believe that a carrier, given how they operate, is the best media company in the world, right? It is a very different world. But I do think that there's opportunity, first of all, to, to actually tell their story in a different way. If you're thinking about everything that a network actually empowers, there's a, there's a lot there. There's a lot that is good for us as, as society. There's a lot that is good for business. What can they do to start talking about differently about their services, and then layer on top of what they offer? A better way to actually bring together private and public network. It's not all about cellular, wifi and cellular coming together. We're talking a lot about satellite here as well. So, there's definitely more there about quality of service. Is, is there though, almost a biological inevitability that prevents companies from being able to navigate that divide? >> Hmm. >> Look at, look at when, when, when we went from high definition 720P, very exciting, 1080P, 4K. Everybody ran out and got a 4K TV. Well where was the, where was the best 4K content coming from? It wasn't, it wasn't the networks, it wasn't your cable operator, it was YouTube. It was YouTube. If you had suggested that 10 years before, that that would happen, people would think that you were crazy. Is it possible for folks who are now leading their companies, getting up on stage, and daring to say, "This content's coming over, "and I want to charge you more "for using my pipes." It's like, "Really? Is that your vision? "That's the vision that you want to share with us here?" I hear the sound of dead people walking- (laughing) when I hear comments like that. And so, you know, my students at Wharton in the CTO program, who are constantly looking at this concept of disruption, would hear that and go, "Ooh, gee, did the board hear what that person said?" I, you know, am I being too critical of people who could crush me like a bug? (laughing) >> I mean, it's better that they ask the people with money than not consumers to pay, right? 'Cause we've been through a phase where the carriers were actually asking for more money depending on critical things. Like for instance, if you're doing business email, then were going to charge you more than if you were a consumer. Or if you were watching video, they would charge you more for that. Then they understood that a consumer would walk away and go somewhere else. So they stopped doing that. But to your point, I think, and, and very much to what you focus from a disruption perspective, look at what Chat GTP and what Microsoft has been doing. Not much talk about this here at the show, which is interesting, but the idea that now as a consumer, I can ask new Bing to get me the 10 best restaurants in Barcelona, and I no longer go to Yelp, or all the other businesses where I was going to before, to get their recommendation, what happens to them? You're, you're moving away, and you're taking eyeballs away from those websites. And, and I think that, that you know, your point is exactly right. That it's, it's about how, from a revenue perspective, you are spending a lot of money to facilitate somebody else, and what's in it for you? >> Yeah. And to be clear, consumers pay for everything. >> Always. Always. (laughs) >> Taxpayers and consumers always pay for everything. So there is no, "Well, we're going to make them pay, so you don't have to pay." >> And if you are not paying, you are the product. Exactly. >> Yes. (laughing) >> Carolina, talk a little bit about what you're seeing at the event from some of the infrastructure players, the hyperscalers, obviously a lot of enterprise focus here at this event. What are some of the things that you're seeing? Are you impressed with, with their focus in telco, their focus to partner, build an ecosystem? What are you seeing? >> I'm seeing also talk about sustainability, and enabling telco to be more sustainable. You know, there, there's a couple of things that are a little bit different from the US where I live, which is that telcos in Europe, have put money into sustainability through bonds. And so they use the money that they then get from the bonds that they create, to, to supply or to fuel their innovation in sustainability. And so there's a dollar amount on sustainability. There's also an opportunity obviously from a growth perspective. And there's a risk mitigation, right? Especially in Europe, more and more you're going to be evaluated based on how sustainable you are. So there are a lot of companies here, if you're thinking about the Ciscos of the world. Dell, IBM all talking about sustainability and how to help carriers measure, and then obviously be more sustainable with their consumption and, and power. >> Going to be interesting to see where that goes over the years, as we talk to, every company we talk to at whatever show, has an ESG sustainability initiative, and only, well, many of them only want to work with other companies who have the same types of initiative. So a lot of, great that there's focus on sustainability, but hopefully we'll see more action down the road. Wanted to ask you about your book, "Blind," the name is interesting, "Blindsided." >> Well, I just want to tag on to this. >> Sure. >> One of the most exciting things for me is fast charging technology. And Shalmie, cell phone, or a smartphone maker from China, just announced yesterday, a smartphone that charges from 0 to 100% in five minutes. Now this is using GAN FEST technology. And the leader in the market is a company called Navitas. And this has profound implications. You know, it starts with the smartphone, right? But then it moves to the laptops. And then it'll move to EV's. So, as we electrify the $10 trillion a year transportation industry, there's a huge opportunity. People want charging faster. There's also a sustainability story that, to Carolina's point, that it uses less electricity. So, if we electrify the grid in order to support transportation, like the Tesla Semi's coming out, there are huge demands over a period. We need energy efficiency technologies, like this GAN FEST technology. So to me, this is humongous. And it, we only see it here in the show, in Shalmie, saying, "Five minutes." And everybody, the consumers go, "Oh, that's cool." But let's look at the bigger story, which is electrifying transportation globally. And this is going to be big. >> Yeah. And, and to, and to double click on that a little bit, to be clear, when we talk about fast charging today, typically it's taking the battery from a, not a zero state of charge, but a relatively low state of charge to 80%. >> Yep. >> Then it tapers off dramatically. And that translates into less range in an EV, less usable time on any other device, and there's that whole linkage between the power in, and the battery's ability to be charged, and how much is usable. And from a sustainability perspective, we are going to have an avalanche of batteries going into secondary use cases over time. >> They don't get tossed into landfills contrary to what people might think. >> Yep. >> In fact, they are used in a variety of ways after their primary lifespan. But that, that is, that in and of itself is a revolutionary thing. I'm interested in each of your thoughts on the China factor. Glaringly absent here, from my perspective, as sort of an Apple fanboy, where are they? Why aren't they talking about their... They must, they must feel like, "Well we just don't need to." >> We don't need to. We just don't need to. >> Absolutely. >> And then you walk around and you see these, these company names that are often anglicized, and you don't necessarily immediately associate them with China, but it's like, "Wait a minute, "that looks better than what I have, "and I'm not allowed to have access to that thing." What happens in the future there geopolitically? >> It's a pretty big question for- >> Its is. >> For a short little tech show. (Caroline laughs) But what happens as we move forward? When is the entire world going to be able to leverage in a secure way, some of the stuff that's coming out of, if they're not the largest economy in the world yet, they shortly will be. >> What's the story there? >> Well, it's interesting that you mentioned First Apple that has never had a presence at Mobile World Congress. And fun enough, I'm part of the GSMA judges for the GLOMO Awards, and last night I gave out Best Mobile Phone for last year, and it was to the iPhone4 Team Pro. and best disruptive technology, which was for the satellite function feature on, on the new iPhone. So, Apple might not be here, but they are. >> Okay. >> And, and so that's the first thing. And they are as far as being top of mind to every competitor in the smartphone market still. So a lot of the things that, even from a design perspective that you see on some of the Chinese brands, really remind you of, of Apple. What is interesting for me, is how there wouldn't be, with the exception of Samsung and Motorola, there's no one else here that is non-Chinese from a smartphone point of view. So that's in itself, is something that changed dramatically over the years, especially for somebody like me that still remember Nokia being the number one in the market. >> Huh. >> So. >> Guys, we could continue this conversation. We are unfortunately out of time. But thank you so much for joining Dave and me, talking about your perspectives on the event, the industry, the disruptive forces. It's going to be really interesting to see where it goes. 'Cause at the end of the day, it's the consumers that just want to make sure I can connect wherever I am 24 by seven, and it just needs to work. Thank you so much for your insights. >> Thank you. >> Lisa, it's been great. Dave, great. It's a pleasure. >> Our pleasure. For our guests, and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching, "theCUBE," the leader in live and emerging tech coverage coming to you day three of our coverage of MWC 23. Stick around. Our next guest joins us momentarily. (outro music)

>> Live from Atlanta, Georgia It's theCUBE, covering Citrix Synergy Atlanta 2019. Brought to you by Citrix. >> Hi welcome back to theCUBE. Lisa Martin with Keith Townsend day two of theCUBE's coverage of Citrix Synergy 2019 from Atlanta. We're excited to welcome Principle Analyst of Creative Strategies Carolina Milanesi to theCUBE. Welcome Carolina. >> Thank you for having me. >> So we were chatting before we went live about some of the great announcements that came out from Citrix yesterday during the general session. And one of the things that we, Keith and I, had been hearing over yesterday and half of today is Citrix has really been this pivot towards the general purposed user. One of the stats that they shared yesterday during the general session was historically enterprise software has been designed for power users, which makes up 1% of the population. So, putting users first now, something that we really heard yesterday, wanted to get your thoughts on that. >> That's my passion. When I talk about enterprise, the people that I really want to talk about are the final user of the technologies. And a lot of times not only corporation's design for the power users but they design for the IT Manager, which is even worse, right? 'Cause that is less than the 1% of a workforce. And for things like security and if you like the way that you can be productive first which is not necessarily a bad thing but that shouldn't come at the price of designing an app and a tool that really speaks to the end user and want the end user to be engaged. And so it was fascinating yesterday during the keynote here, Citrix talked about a service that Gallup run and saying that 85% of a workforce is disengaged today. And they are because they often not have the right tool for the job. They don't have the right data available to them to understand what the task is that they're trying to achieve. So, there is so much there that I think something like workspace is helping disenfranchise in a way. And try and break into pieces and make it more user-friendly. That's the best way that you can think about consumerization is making user-friendly tools. >> So user-friendly and enterprise IT really go together. >> Exactly. >> I remember moving from Office 2003 to Office 2007 and thinking, oh wow why did I do this? This is not user-friendly. We have five generations of the workforce in the workforce. >> Yeah. >> So there is variant degrees of adoption. What do you think, how do you think Citrix is enabling not just the consumerization or bringing consumer products into the workforce but adaption across generations. >> I think if you are starting with the user, you are in a good space, right? So, it doesn't matter if you're a baby boomer, a gen z or gen x or a millennial we all want a easy life. We want something to be straightforward and not to get into, in the way of as being productive and getting the job done. And so, I think if you're starting with that in mind making sure that you understand the goals that the company is trying to achieve and then with the design you're attentive at that simplicity baking in security so that security is at the core of your designing your tool but doesn't get in the way. I don't want to use the tool at work that is not secure unless it's more convenient for me, right? And that's how we always gone around what was available in the consumer space and we've brought into the enterprise either as a device or an application. And I think that putting simplicity first, is allowing Citrix to avoid the issues so that, the IT departments don't have to worry about renegades that are going to bring in something from the backdoor but really embrace this technology as a new way to think about how I work. >> In along those lines, thinking about how I work, I as an employee, you as an employee, Keith is an employee, we all have habits and tools and ways of interacting with different applications that are really personalized to us. And as consumers on the consumer part of our lives, we have this expectation that we are going to be delivered this customized personal experience. Whether we are going on at Amazon to buy something or Keith was saying the other day on Facebook Microsoft surfs up an ad to him about not a Surface, 'cause they know he's bought one but some additional value ad accessories that might be beneficial to him. So those are things that we kind of more and more, I think across those five workforce generations are expecting. >> Absolutely. >> What are some of the things that you're saying that Citrix is doing to enable that personalization at scale in a way that is secure? >> Yeah, by putting intelligence in the midst of all of this because all the things that you're talking about the example you're giving in my consumer experience, are enabled by intelligence. So artificial intelligence or machine learning that look at what ad I looked at or what page I visited and some of it is a bit stalking but that's all right. From a user perspective, that stalking is still giving me a benefit. Now you take that into an enterprise environment, it is much easier 'cause advertising is not something that comes into play. But when you're looking at what Citrix do from an intelligence workspace and so they are able for instance to look at, say I join Citrix in the marketing department and they're able on day one to show me what my colleagues in the marketing department are using as their apps. Their favorite apps, their workflow so that from an awarding perspective, my experience is already easier. I'm not given a blank PC and I don't know where to go and they tell you go in the internet, find what you need. That's really overwhelming if you're just starting a new position. So being able to look at how applications are used either at the team level or across organizations, you can do this with analytics. You can see organizations that can belong to same versicle say they are in retail, they have similar numbers of employees to yours. This is how they work, that's their best practice and you can learn from that and then customize to your own needs. >> So we've learned a new term yesterday, tomo, total motivation. The measurement of how motivated or how not disengaged employees are. So employee experience is becoming a big deal. If I come to a new company and I have to wait two or three days to get a laptop or get my device, that's a pretty bad indicator whether or not I am going to be able to perform well in my function. I'm starting to think are you saying really great examples of enterprises that will make consumers jealous. Like wow that enterprise experience of computing is so great, I'd like to have that in my life. There was somethings I saw on stage yesterday that went like wow that would make build me so much easier. Are you saying enterprises kind of inject some ideas to the consumer space? >> I think that we are starting to, right? I've been in this industry for along time. And I've been preaching for a long time about how looking at consumers and putting the user first is important. We're just starting now to come around to the idea that consumer satisfaction is important, that consumer engagement, sorry, employee satisfaction, employee engagement is important. It dawned me yesterday that if you're looking at consumer brands, engagement is the first thing they target. Because if you're engaged, you're going to be loyal. If you're loyal, you're going to spend more money within the brand and ecosystem that they represent. But yet in the enterprise we are not that yet. So, what you're talking about will happen, in my opinion, especially with new technologies we're thinking about deployment of 5G or you're thinking about VR and XR. There is a lot that in a way takes us back to how technology used to be which was not as affordable as it is today. And so will be deployed in enterprise environment first and then come to the consumer. And so, along those line I see somethings that consumer can look at and think, you know that would be nice in my own life. If you're looking at workspace why cannot I use this similar solution to just organize my kid's life 'cause I tell you, you know. With all the afterschool activity and whatnot between me and dad, we're pretty busy. >> So you mentioned engagement and some of the things that pop into my mind is the marketer in the last day and a half when they talk about employee experience as how I'm hearing it from Citrix is this is a critical catalyst for digital transformation. Talking about the employee experience from the very beginnings of even recruiting for talent and writing job descriptions to telling accusation to training, education. You guys both talked about some of the onboarding things that should be in place to make that process pretty seamless. But one of the things too that I think govern terms of employee experience is that like a marketing funnel, naturally, becomes a opportunity, converted to a customer but you want to turn that customer to an advocate, turn those employees into advocates so that you are able to retain them, they add more value into the company. That was something that I thought that was really, pretty, I want to say revolutionary but it was nice to hear Citrix talking about employee experience as it really relates to the essential telling, attraction and accusation issues that a lot of businesses face. And one of the things you said, looking at how they're using AI to look at tool efficiency rather than productivity of each individual is really a great way to foster that I would imagine loyalty on the employee side. >> It definitely is. I think that, we talk a lot about being millennials and in the fact that they are going to come into the workspace and they are expecting a different way of working because their relationship with technology is different from the relationship that my generation has had. They are comfortable with technology. They use technology everyday and they don't understand why it cannot be the same way. But I think beyond that is not just about millennials, I think companies really need to look more at, if you like, digital transformation and consumerization of IT actually brings to the whole company. And even being yes an employee for factor but also a customer factor, supporting your customer, increasing customer satisfaction. And I think a lot of times we need to get away from how we measure something new using old tools. So you're trying to justify why you should be deploying workspace and you're trying to cut down on okay, I'm going to save four hours a week, how much is that going to cost me? That's not it. That is the wrong way of looking at what a new tool and rethinking about your processes is bringing as a value to your company. And a lot of times this is soft, it's not a hard number that you can put. They're soft advantages that you're going to have and like you were saying, satisfaction brings loyalty, brings further every employee in your organization is going to be an evangelist for you. That, you can't put a price on that. >> So in terms of customer I want to kind of rift off that, if you're saying, cause one of the things that they said yesterday is with workspace intelligent experience, we aim to give back every worker one full day a week, which is two months a year. And my first thought was, wow, how much is that going to save the company because one of the things that Keith and I have been talking about the last day and a half that also was announced yesterday was the 7 trillion dollars that companies waste because of disengagement. So that certainly is something that was attractive and was a very strongly resonating message but you're saying how should companies be kind of looking at that? Okay so, yes I'm going to be able to save each person a full day a week, two months a year; how is that going to one, turn them into advocates for the company? But what's the benefit that going to be on the end user customer? >> Well, I think that if you spend less time fighting to get your job done and actually focusing on doing a good job, that's already going to benefit your customer. Whatever customer it is, right? It could be that you're able to research whatever it is that you're doing. Like if I look at my job, if I can cut down an hour a day, I can spend that time reading in a benign form, reading books or reading articles that will add to my thinking, engaging with my peers and discussing what is going on. The same thing can be in an enterprise where I have actually time to spend with my manager and making sure that he knows if I'm happy or not happy. Engaging with my peers to problem solving or spend more time with my customers. I think a lot of times there is a little bit of a mentality of, oh you're saving money so you're going to work less and so why would I need to do that? There is plenty of jobs to be done. I think that saving that time and saving the aggravation that pushing paper work or doing one thing that could take three step in 15 steps it's just not helping you. It's not helping your morale, is not helping how you've been interact with your customers because you aren't happy. And that transpire and transpire with your teams as well. >> Let's talk about 5G and impact of 5G on employee experience. One, we're a little bit away from 5G becoming a thing but when it's talked us about where it said today and where potential of impacting employee experience when it finally arrives. >> Yes we are a little bit away. We're starting to see deployment in markets actually today was the launch in the UK with EE and we have Verizon here in the US. So we are getting started. But for me the power of 5G is two falls, yes on every employee will have the power of connectivity anywhere and at any time, which is good and bad 'cause potentially you're never disconnected ever but the other side is we're talking about the intelligence in that data. There is going to be way more of that. There is going to be more data available. So if you're thinking from an employee perspective of the availability of data and what that can do to you as far as understanding your customer base and how to serve and that is going to be exponentially bigger just because so many more devices are going to become connected. And I think that for me is really what excites me about 5G. Yes I can download a movie in one minute and five seconds but that's not it, right? It is really about first of all, new experiences like augmented reality and what that bring to an experience say in a retail environment, experience environment, entertainment but then the amounts of sheered data that you can get from devices being connected. >> So, it's that we're at the tip of the iceberg? >> It is. >> Carolina thank you so much for joining Keith and me. >> It was a pleasure. >> On the CUBE I know that we can keep chatting but we have to have you back 'cause this is a dot dot dot to be continued conversation. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> For Keith Townsend, I'm Lisa Martin you're watching theCUBE Live from Citrix Synergy 2019. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)