>> Let me check. (uptempo orchestral music) (uptempo techno music) >> Live, from San Francisco, it's theCUBE! Covering Red Hat Summit 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hey welcome back everyone, we are live here with theCUBE in San Francisco, Moscone West, for Red Hat Summit 2018. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE, with John Troyer co-host, analyst this week. the TechReckoning co-founder. Our next two guests are Ashesh Badani, vice president and general manager of OpenShift Platform and Alex Polvi, CEO of CoreOS, interview of the week because CoreOS now part of Red Hat. Congratulations, good to see you again. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> You're welcome. >> So obviously this is for us, we've been covering both of you guys pretty heavily and we've been commenting very positively around the acquisition of CoreOS. Two great companies that know open-source, pure open-source. You guys got the business model nailed down, these guys got great tech. You bring it together. So the first question is how's everyone doing? How's everyone feeling? And where's the overlap, if any and where's the fix? Explain the true fit of CoreOS. >> I'm going to start Alex, you want to jump in after. We're very excited right, so when we first had interactions with CoreOS, we knew this is going to be a great fit. The conversation we had earlier, both companies delivers in open-source, delivers in the mission center to take us forward regard to Kubernetes, as the container orchestration engine, and then being able to build out value for our customers around it. I think from our perspective, the work that both CoreOS did in advancing the community forward but also the work they've done around automation or their upgrades, management metering, charge back and so on. Being able to bring all those qualities into Red Hat is incredible. So I think the fits been good. It's been three months, I'll let Alex comment some more on that but we've been doing a lot of work from integration perspective around engineering, around product management. At Red Hat Summit this week, we reveal details around some of the converged road maps, which I can talk about some more as well. So we're feeling pretty good about it. >> Alex, your reaction. >> Yes, it's been three months. If you've studied CoreOS at all, you know everything that we do really centers around this concept of automated operations. And so by being part of Red Hat, we're starting to bring that to market in a much bigger and faster way of really accelerating it. The way the acquisition are really successful is either mutually beneficial to both companies and they accelerate the adoption of technology and that's definitely happening. We had the announcement yesterday with Red Hat CoreOS around the Linux distribution. Last week, we did the operator framework. It was very central to the work that we've been doing as part of CoreOS, and then as companies in a lot of ways is being part of Red Hat for three months now. This is what our company would have looked like if we ever just another 10 years along or whatever very similar, we're like a mini Red Hat, and now we're leaped ahead in a big way. >> And you guys done a good work. We've documented on theCUBE many times, and we were in Copenhagen last week. Now covering the operating framework but I want to get your reaction. You guys did a lot of great work on the tech side obviously, you can go into more detail but we've always been saying on theCUBE. If you try to force monetization in these emerging markets, you're optimizing behavior. And this was something that's gone on, we've seen containers. It's been well documented obviously what's happened. It's certainly a beautiful thing. Got Kubernetes now on top working together with that. If as an entrepreneur out there that are building companies. If you try to force the monetization too early, you really thinking differently. You guys stay true to it. Now we've got a good home with Red Hat. Talk about that dynamic because that was something that I know you guys faced at CoreOS and you've managed through it. Tempted probably many times to do something. Talk about the mission that you had, staying true to that and just that dynamic. It's challenging. >> Yeah, as we set out to build a company in general, there are really three operating principles. There is build a great technology to solve our mission which is to secure the internet through automated operations, build a great place to spend their days which is really about the people and the culture and so on. Why are we doing this, and the third was to make it sustainable and by that I mean to build their own money fountains, building out of the middle of our campus. And so by joining Red Hat it's we have a money fountain sitting there. (laughing) It's spewing off a ton of cash flow every single quarter that allows us to continue to do those first two things in perpetuity, and that third one is something every company needs in order to continue to execute towards the mission. And the thing that's so awesome about working with Red Hat is we're very much aligned and compatible. Red Hat's mission isn't exactly the same thing we are working but it's definitely compatible. It's like Apache and GPL are compatible. It's like that type of compatible. >> You both believe in open-source in a big way. Talk about the Red Hat perspectives. Now you got like a kid in a candy store. Openshift made a big bed with Kubernetes. You see now, you have the CoreOS, how has it changed in Red Hat internally? Things moving around actually accelerates the game a bit for you guys, and you're seeing new life being pumped into OpenStack. You're seeing clear line of sight with Kubernetes on the app side. We were just at KubeCon. A lot of people are pretty excited. There's clear lines of sight on what's defacto. What people are going to build around, and also differentiate. >> Right, so I'll start off by saying I really hope our CEO, Jim Whitehurst doesn't see this interview but if it goes off in terms of money factor. I'm currently make budget request. I think I know what's going on. >> Balance sheet, cashless now. It's in the public filings. If I see a fountain of money spewing off the thing, >> The ability to reinvest. >> This is a really good fit. (laughing) The way to say this, they have a great business model. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Some of us will make money, some of us will spend the money. Some of us will spend the money, it will work out well. (laughing) >> It's a great win. It's a great win. It obviously accelerates the plans. The commercialization is already there with Red Hat. This is just a good thing for everybody but the impact of you guys accelerating, just seeing OpenShift. You can boil it down to the impact of Red Hat. What is the impact? >> So in all seriousness, I think the focus for us really has been about there is so much complimentary work that's been going on with the CoreOS team that we're bringing into OpenShift, and to Red Hat in general that accelerates everything that you're seeing. You saw some amazing announcements happen this week with regard to our partnership with Microsoft and getting OpenShift out and Azure, and joint support offering. The work we're doing with IBM to get IBM middleware as well as IBM Cloud Private support integrated with OpenShift. The work that Alex referred to around automation, being able to bring that to our customers. We see all the excitement around that front as well so we want to take all Techtonic work that has been going on at CoreOS, then move that to OpenShift. Carry forward the community that CoreOS built around Container Linux, and actually inject a lot those ideas into that Linux, our flagship technology. Bring that passion and energy to bear as well, and then carry forward a lot of the other projects that they have. For example, the Quake Container Registry, that's extremely popular. Carry that forward, support our customers to use that both stand alone integrated with the OpenShift platform. Other projects like FCB that Alex has been talking about which is the underpinnings of Kubernetes plus running worldwide. So all of those things, we can bring forward, and then all the advancements that were made in place by CoreOS as they're working towards their money fountain, just plug that right into it. >> And just as a point of reference, Brendan Burns flew in yesterday. Microsoft Build is going up so he left their own conference to come down here. >> As did Scar Guthrie, right? >> That's a great testament. This is the testament. They're coming down, really laying down support. This is a real big deal. This is not a fake deal, it's real. >> And so I want to talk a little bit about specifics of the timeline, the road maps. Sometimes with these mergers or acquisitions, it's well the technology will be incorporated at some point, and then it goes away to die and you never see it again. And then the people all leave, and then you ask what was going on. But here, you actually have, I was great. You were talking to me. You have some specific timelines and we'll start to see some of the Techtonics Stack in OpenShift fairly soon. >> Yes, absolutely so the acquisition was announced three months ago and we said at that time that by Red Hat Summit, we'll lay out for you a road map and so we're now starting to do that. We put out release of some materials around some details with regard to how that's coming out. We have detailed sessions going on at Red Hat Summit around the integration plans between Red Hat, OpenShift and CoreOS with a few specific areas with regard to OpenShift. You'll start seeing the earliest versions if you will of the work that's being done. This summer, we'll deliver the full road map to you there by the end of this calendar year. With regard to, for example pieces like the Quake Container Registry that's being made available and being sold now as we speak. Customers can go get that, and we want to make sure no customer is left behind. Right, that's a principle we put out. And with regard to supporting any existing customers on Techtonic or the Container Linux space, we're doing that as we're working to integrate them into the Red Hat portfolio. Can you talk a little bit about the decision for Red Hat's atomic coast and Container Linux? Now re-named again, CoreOS. That was one of the seminal inventions that you all made as you started the company. I think it had some brilliant ideas again about security and the operational aspects but can you talk about some of those technologies and the decisions made there? >> Yeah, like I said, the acquisition of CoreOS Red Hat was about saying look what can we take that CoreOS has been doing to accelerate both work and community but also what could be doing to deliver this technology to customers. So the goal was we'll take all the atomic and the word that's been going on there have that be superseded by the work that's coming out of CoreOS Container Linux carry the community forward. Release a version of that called Red Hat CoreOS and in its initial form make that actually an underlying environment to run OpenShift in. Okay so for customers who want the automation that Alex talked about earlier. They made that available both at the underlying platform. Make it available in OpenShift platform itself via the work that's come from Techtonic, and then ultimately, Alex will talk about this some more through operators. So trusted operations from ISP or third party software that would run on the platform. All right so now if you will, we'll have full stack automation all the way through. OpenShift also support Red Hat Linux, a traditional environment for the thousands of customers that we have globally. Over a period of time, you should expect to see much of the work that's going on Red Hat CoreOS find its way into it as well. So I think this just benefits all around for us both in the near term as well as long. >> And Red Hat Container certification, where does that fit into all this? >> Yeah, a great question, so what we announced maybe was, actually was two years ago was a Container certification program. Last year, we spent some time talking about the health of those containers, and being able to provide that to customers. And this year, we're talking about trusted operations around those containers. That carries forward, we've got hundreds of ISPs that have built certified containers around it, and now with the operator framework, we've had, I think it's four ISPs demonstrating previews of their operators working with our platform as well as 60 more that are committed to building ISP operators that will be certified again. >> So people are certified in general, pretty much. I think we're very excited. The fact that we went to KubeCon last week, announced that the operating framework have been based on the ideas that the CoreOS team has been working on for at least two years. Making that available to the community and then saying for the ISPs that want a path to market. Going back to the money fountain again for the ISP that want to pass through market which is pretty much all of them. We also have the ability to do that so give them an opportunity to make sure that as wide as possible some adoption of the software at the same time help with commercialization. >> Can you guys share your definition of operator because I saw the announcement but we we're on a broader definition when we see the DevOps movement going the next level. It's all about automation and security, you mentioned that admin roles are being automated in a way to see more of an operator function within enterprise and emerging service providers. So the role operator now takes on two meanings. It's a software developer. It also is a network operator, it's also a service, so what is that, how do you guys view that role because if this continues, you're going to have automation. More administrator is going to be self healing, all this stuff is going to go on. Potentially operations is now the developers and IT all blurring together. How do you guys define the word operator in the future state? >> Well I know the scenario of great interest to you. >> So operator is the term for the piece of software that implements the automated operations. And so automated operations, what is that? Well that's what sets apart, the way I think about it is what sets apart a cloud provider verses a hosting provider. It's a set of software that really runs the thing for you and so if we're going to get into specific Kubernetes lingo, it would be an application specific controller. That's a piece of software that's implements the automated operations. And automated operation is a software that gives you that simplicity of cloud. It's at the core of a database as a service. It's both hosting but also automated operations. Those two things together make up a cloud service and that software piece is what we're decoupling from the hosting providers for the first time and allowing any open-source project or ISP brings the simplicity of cloud but in any environment. And that's what the operator is a piece of software that actually goes and implements that. >> So a microservices framework, this fits in pretty nicely. How do you see obviously? >> Microservices, there's all these terms. Microservice is more of an architecture than anything but it's saying look, there's these basic things that every operations team has to go and do. You have to go and install something, you have to upgrade it, you have to back it up, when it crashes in the middle of the night, get it going again. A lot of these things, the best practices for how you do them are all common. There's no ingenuity in it. And for those things, we can now because of Kubernetes write software that just automates it, and this was not possible five years ago. You couldn't write those software. There were things like configuration management systems and stuff like that that would allow companies to build their own custom versions of this. But to build a generic piece of software that knows how to run application like Prometheus or a database or so on. It wasn't possible to write that and that's what the first four or five years of CoreOS was is making it possible, that's why you saw all these mat and new open-source projects being built. But once it was possible it was like let's start leveraging that. You saw the first operator come out about a year ago, and I think it was our ATD operator was the first one, and we started talking about this as a concept. And now we're releasing operator framework which is from all the learnings of building the first couple. We now made a generic, so anybody can go and do it, and as part of Red Hat, we're now bringing it to the whole ISP ecosystem. So the whole plan to make automated operations ubiquitous is still well underway. >> I'd love to extend that conversation though to the operator, the person. >> Right. I think you and your team brought the perspective of the operational excellence right to the table. A lot of cloud has been driven by the role of developer and DevOps but I've always felt like well wait a minute operators the people who use to be known as IT insisted they had a lot to bring to the table too about security and about keeping things running, and about compliance and about all that good stuff. So can you talk a little bit as you see the community emerging, and as you see all these folks here. How do you talk to people who want to understand what their role is going to be with all this automation in keeping the clouds running? >> Computers use to be people too. (laughing) But we're not going to completely automate away everything because there's still parts of this wildly complex system that justifies whole conferences of thousands of people that require a whole lot of human ingenuity. What we're doing is saying let's not like do the part that is the fire drill in the middle of the might that keeps you from making forward progress. The typical role of an operations person today is just fighting fires of mundane things that don't actually add a lot of value to the business. In fact, this guy is difficult because you only get brought up when things are on fire. You never get an praise when things are going well. And so what we want to do is help the operations folks put out those fires like the security updates. Let's just roll those out automatically. The way you do those across all organizations does not need to be special and unique but they're really critical to do right. >> Well it's just automate that stuff away and let the operations team focus on moving the business forward. The parts that require the human spirit to actually go and do, and if we get to a point where a CEO of a company is like, wow, I can not come up with a new vision for this imitative 'cause my operations team are just so fast at influencing them. Then we have to start worrying about operations people's job but I don't see that happening for a very long time. >> And no one is going to be sitting around twiddling their thumbs either. >> Let me just extend that point a little bit. The whole point of operators is to encapsulate human knowledge that ISPs have and bring that in the platform and automate it. So the challenge that we've had is an operations person is required to know a lot about a lot. So the question then really is how can we at least take some of what's already known by people and be able to replicate that and that allows for every one to move forward. I think that's just forward-- >> Well, there's a bigger picture beyond that, so I agree but there is also scale. With cloud, you have scale issues. So with scale automation is a beautiful thing 'cause the fire has also grown exponentially too so you can't be operating like this. Scale matters, super. >> The reason that this stuff was invented at Google initially was not because of Google's high career per second. Is that they were, to build the application they're building required so many servers that you couldn't hire enough operations people without writing software to automate it. So they were forced to custom design the system because they had so many servers to run to build the software that they wanted to build. And other companies are just now getting to that point because every company is going through a digital transformation. They have to have thousands of servers just to run their applications. There's no way you're just going to hire the operations staff to go and do it all by hand. You have to write software to turn the operations people into mech warriors of running servers. You need to wrap them in automation in order to scale that. >> At KubeCon, she made a comment that all those operations folks at Google are software developers. >> Brand engineers. >> Brand engineering, so they're not Ops guys just pushing buttons and provisioning gear and what not. They're actually writing code. You bring up the Google piece, the other piece that we heard at KubeCon. We hear this consistently that this is now a new way to do software development. So when a former Googler went to work for another company, left Google. She went in and she said, "Oh my God, you guys don't do. "You don't use board?" To her, she's like how do you write software? So she was like young and went out in the real world and was like wait a minute, you don't do this? So this is a new model in software development at scale with these new capabilities. >> I think so and I think what's really important is the work we're doing with regards to an ecosystem perspective to help folks. So one of the top things I hear from customers all the time is this sounds fantastic. Everyone's talking about DevOps or microservices or wanting to run Kubernetes at scale. Do I have the skills? Can I keep up with the change that's in place and how do I continue going forward around that? So we announced at Red Hat Summit Managed offerings from let's say Atos and DXC where you've got goals to integrate us helping folks, or companies like Extension T systems. The CEO came and spoke today about the work we're doing with them to help connected cars, and those applications be rolled out quick and fast. I think it's going to take a village to get us to where we want to because the rate of change is so fast around all of these areas and it's not slowing down that we'll have to ensure there's more automation and then there's more enablement that's going on for our customers. >> So some clarity, can you guys comment on your reaction to obviously we've seen OpenStack has done over the years and now with well Containers, now Kubernetes. You seeing at least two ecosystems clearly identified. Application developers, cloud native and then I would call under the hood infrastructure, you got OpenStack. Almost it clarifies where people can actually focus on real problems that the Kubernetes needs. So how has the Container, maturation of Containers with Kubernetes clarified the role of the community? If this continues with automation, you can almost argue that the clarity happens everywhere. Can you comment on how you see that happening? Is it happening or is it just observation that's misguided? >> I think we're getting better with regard to fit for a purpose or fit for use case. All right, so if you start thinking about the earliest days of OpenStack. OpenStack is going to be AWS in a box, and then you realize well that's not a practical way of thinking about what a community can do a build at scale. And so when you start thinking about a Word appropriate use case for this. Now you start betting if you will, a set of scales, you set expectations around how to make that successful. I think we'll go through the same if we haven't already or even going through it with regard to Kubernetes. So not every company in the world can run Managed World call. DYI Kubernetes, don't many companies will start with that. And so the question is how do we get to the point where there's balance around it and then be able to take advantage of the work? For example, companies like Red Hat work for us was doing to help accelerate that path 'cause to the point Alex was trying to make is the value for them being able to keep up with the core release of Kubernetes? And every time a bug shows up to go off and be able to fix and patch it, and watch that or is the value building the next set of applications set on top of platforms. >> That's great, well congratulations guys. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. Appreciate the insight. Congratulations on the three months into Red Hat. Good fit, and enjoy the rest of the show. Thanks for coming on, I appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Live from Red Hat Summit, it's theCUBE's coverage here of Red Hat and all the innovation going on out in the open. We're here in the middle of, we open the floor with Moscone West with live coverage. Stay with us for more after this short break. (uptempo techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE On the Ground! Covering KubeCon 2016! Brought to you by The Linux Foundation and Red Hat. Here's your host, John Furrier. >> Okay, we are here in Seattle for a special CUBE On the Ground coverage of CloudNativeCon and KubeCon really born out of the KubeCon last year, now called CloudNativeCon. Really great event, dynamic, lot of developers here. This is where the players are. It's really one of those events that's really special and we've been here all day getting ready to get kicked out of the room. The party's going to kick off at 7 o'clock. There's an election going on, the numbers are crazy. And of course we have the CEO of CoreOS, Alex Polvi, who's here, he's been on theCUBE many times. CoreOS, one of the main players in what is the biggest trend of the past few years that has really catapulted cloud and the developers together, certainly in the enterprise and the cloud as containers, and now Kubernetes, great to see you. >> Great to see you as well, John. >> You guys have been in the heart of the battle and part of the growth and the journey. It's been a battle, it's been fun. Do you have scar tissue? You guys have, with Docker's been out there, you guys have been there, you've been at war, you've been friends, just frenemies. And so in the spirit of growth, this is what's happening in the industry. But more than ever, now you're starting to see an acceleration. Acceleration with Kubernetes as a catalyst. Your thoughts on this trend, because now the container mojo is out there, people get it, they see the value. Now they go, okay, with Kubernetes, this brings you in a primitive at an abstraction that I can work with. How is that changing the game right now? >> I think we're going through the biggest transformation we've seen in infrastructure since cloud was invented. So you know, you have it on these cycles, and cloud, while Amazon has been going for, what, 10 years now, almost? >> Ten years, yeah. >> Right, and so, naturally, you'll see things emerge, and what's happening now is a you know this kind of new layer popping out. And containers and distributed systems are I believe are the next major area of infrastructure investment and beyond cloud itself. >> So talking about the open source community role here, because now you're starting to see the open source community get on this. We had Jim Walker who was on, who works on your team. Ex-Hortonworks guy, kind of knows the big data space, seen that movie before, commenting that most of the people born after 2000 don't even know what loading Linux on a machine is. So they're born cloud native. And so, this is a new dynamic that cloud gives more options for invention, a theme we're hearing here, solving these unknown problems, creating value. So whoever can give me the best speed boat to that wins, right? I mean this is what we're seeing. Your thoughts on the community's role in propelling and keeping in check, by the way, any potentially bad behavior. >> Sure, I think the open source community that we have around Kubernetes and kind of all the cloud native work, it's great for number reasons. One, we've, kind of through Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and kind of just, as conscious effort to have really a kind of a company neutral open source ecosystem has caused adoption of all this stuff. It's becoming like a Linux, or becoming I think OpenStack is actually did a pretty good job of this of creating a very vendor neutral ecosystem around it and we're doing it again around Kubernetes and the associated projects around it. One of the big things that's going on here is it is driven out of the spirit of technical excellence as well. These open source projects are the real deal, they're great pieces of software that are being built, so I think the combination of this community as well as software actually being a great piece of technology coming out of it is really going to propel it forward. >> We had Dan Kohn earlier, who's the executive director, he talked about the IETF and how that was shaped, some of the early internet standards with that some of the architectural decisions. There's no dogma. I mean, dogma kills communities. And they don't want that, so they're going to create a separation. There's always going to be dogma at some levels, conflict, but conflict and discourse is good in communities, at some level. What is that vision for the technical excellence now because it certainly is a race. Your thoughts there, and certainly we've seen this playbook when Docker has trying to go for that management orchestration layer. You guys have a strategy. People have to make money. Right, at some point, the playbooks have to change from being we just do some service and support. We have an open core, I'm going to try and do some, you know, mangling of licensing. Your thoughts on, how are people going to make money? >> Yeah, so, on this open community side of things, I have a crazy theory for you, and I think this one's a little bit further out there. >> That's okay, it's still, things are happening on the election night, I blew my mind, I thought Hillary was going to win by a landslide, go crazy. >> So Amazon is actually become both one of the biggest proponents of open source software. It's one of the places where you can get open source databases and open source Linux and all this stuff as easily as possible. At the same time, if you're an open source company, they're one of your biggest threats, 'cause you're worried that Amazon is just going to like, go build your service! I mean, look, we've seen it across every open source company that has any reasonable amount of traction, Amazon will just go build a service that competes with it. Now, the tricky thing with Amazon is all their APIs and management are very Amazon specific. And there aren't ways to get it in other ways. And we've kind of seen this game before, similar to how, there's Microsoft and Windows with Linux, I believe that Amazon might be kind of becoming this such a powerhouse and so dominated in this space that you're going to almost see an open source backlash around it and I can see Kubernetes being a key part of that in the same way that we talk about Kubernetes as a Linux for distributed system! It's, in a way, like an open cloud. It allows you to build these cloud services in a similar way that Amazon has these higher level services that work in any environment that are built around open standards, that encourage the use of just upstream open source projects. And so far, Amazon has not really been villainized at all, and I don't think they should be-- >> And they're not grandstanding, so I think they're kind of bunkering in. Just-- >> Going for it. >> Squirreling away all this-- >> Just keep it going! (laughs) Keep ripping! >> Why even say anything, you kicking ass! Put the heat shield up and just drive fast, right? >> I feel like at some point, the community is going to be like, wait a minute! We have so many eggs in this basket! >> Yeah, we're feeling fleeced! The numbers are out there! >> And it's a proprietary-- >> Well, first of all, Dave Vellante pointed out that their 25% reporting of was GAAP, and the non-GAPP numbers are even higher. So that's real profit, that's real EB dep. So they, are they giving it back to the community? That's your question. >> Well-- >> So I think the backlash is not only giving back to the community, but either wealth creation and ecosystem flourishing, but you're talking about software. >> And it's a cycle. People want something new to emerge, but at the same time, you don't all your eggs in one basket. So, you know, it's cycles. >> Well, I think your thing is plausible. Let's just go down and play out your crazy scenario. So, Linux, was started because of the mini computer. Proprietary naus-is, and the expensive hardware. So if Amazon becomes that version of that 800 pound gorilla that's similar to the mini computer, proprietary operating systems and gear... So it's a scenario. >> Not too wild! >> Okay, so what's next for you guys? Give us the update on CoreOS, what are you guys doing, what are the hot area, what are you guys doing, what's the update real quick? >> Sure, so, the last 3, 3 1/2 years, we've been shepherding along this whole space. Containers, distributed system, Kubernetes, Docker, Rocker, CoreOS Linux, like all sorts of stuff. We finally got the point where our initial kind of groundwork of the distributed platform is all in place and we can start using it. It's like we got IOS or Android to boot and now can start building apps. And last week, we released our first set of apps, I think really paint the vision of where these things are going. As this concept called operators, and it's where we're encoding kind of the operational side of like the things a human sysadmin would do to run a piece of open source software. We're encoding that into an application and it's called an operator, and it can do things like upgrade a cluster, or back it up, or scale it up and down. Same things operate-- >> Like an agent! >> Like an agent, exactly. And it's these management components that we think are going to give companies a ton of leverage to be able to run lots and lots-- >> So when do you guys ship this recently? >> Yeah, we shipped our first couple one for Etcd, and one for Prometheus last week. It's just they're new open source projects. >> So it's like getting a new car and taking it around the track, right? You guys are getting excited. >> Well, in a way, we're calling this kind of whole concept self driving infrastructure, just like you would have a operator sitting there, driving your car, we can now put software in there to kind of help take care of the stuff, the functionality that an operator would do to give-- >> Well, I think that's great, great strategy. We were just at IBM's World of Watson and as they change their event, from Insight to Watson, that's the big hype. Customers are responding to it. They love this cognitive AI'd vision of self driving infrastructure or stuff taking care of itself and focusing on value. I mean there's a lot of stuff in the weeds right now that seems to be automatable. >> Yeah, look, two weeks ago, we had two huge vulnerabilities come out, one on the Linux kernel and one on Kubernetes. And every ops team in the world had to drop what they were doing and go fix that, and they stopped making progress on their business and whatever thing they were trying to deliver and had to go deal with this fire. We can write programs to fix that stuff and we should! And it'll lead to a more efficient business, and it'll also lead to more secure web, in general, if those things just get patched and updated automatically. >> Yeah, that's great, that's a good point, and the DDoS attack with the IOT was even more pedestrian and worse than-- >> Same issue, it's the updates! Update your software, IOT, like, updates, updates fix it. >> Yeah, I think it was probably some eight year old saying ooh, let's just take down, ooh, they left their passwords open, let's just game in. I mean, that's how bad, how easy that hack was, I mean, and it still penetrates, so tons of work to get done to your build. Alex, thanks for coming on theCUBE here On the Ground. That's a wrap here for today, it was a long day. Great to see you, and congratulations on your success. I'm John Furrier. You're watching theCUBE here On the Ground here for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Live from the Julia Morgan Ballroom in San Francisco. Extracting the signal from the noise, it's TheCUBE. Covering Structure 2015. Now your host, George Gilbert. >> This is George Gilbert, we're at Structure 2015. Reborn and really healthy from the old GigaOM, and we're pleased to welcome Alex Polvi from CoreOS, everyone seems to want to talk to Alex these days. So we've got first dibs. Alex why don't you tell us a little bit about CoreOS and why it's of such relevance right now. >> Sure, so we started CoreOS a little over two years ago, about two and a half years ago now. And our mission is to fundamentally improve the security of the internet. And our approach in doing that is to help companies run infrastructure in this way that allows it to be much more serviceable and have much better security and so on. This way that we're modeling looks a lot like what we've seen from the hyperscale companies. Folks like Google. So we often call it Google's Infrastructure For Everyone Else, GIFFY for short 'cause that's kind of a mouthful. And that involves distributed systems, containers, and running on standard hardware which in 2015 can be a bare-metal server, or could be an instance in AWS. >> Okay. So help us understand though that, if CoreOS, it sounds like there's an operating system at the core. >> Yeah. >> Is this like a cut down version of Linux that gives it a small attack surface and a sort of easier deployment and patching? >> Exactly, so in our quest to run the world servers to secure the internet we start at the lowest level component possible. There's the OS, then there's the distributed system side. So CoreOS is our company name, but it's also the name of the first product that we released, CoreOS Linux. CoreOS Linux is a lightweight container-based OS that automatically updates itself, 'cause we think that updates are the key to good security. So it's a combination of the updates, the container weight, the lightweight container-based application model. As well as just stripping everything else out. I mean the last 20 years of Linux distributions have created lots of cruft so it was time to kind of rebirth a new lightweight Linux OS. >> Sticking to CoreOS >> Yeah. >> For a moment, in an earlier era, might we have called this like an embedded OS where you just sort of chopped out everything that was not necessary for the application? >> Yeah, it's very much inspired by embedded OSes. On servers you know, you really want to get everything out of the way of the resources like the memory and CPU and so on so you get as much as you want out of it. So while it's a little bit counterintuitive, you have this really monster server, you still want as light and thin of an OS on there as you possibly can like an embedded OS so you can really maximize the performance. >> So something that abstracts the hardware but gets out of the way. >> Exactly. Just focus, get on the things that matter which is running your applications and managing the actual hardware and really nothing else. >> Okay, so, presumably to provide Google's infrastructure for everyone else, and I don't remember the acronym, >> GIFFY. >> Okay. What other products did you have to fill out to make that possible? >> Sure, great question. So the next major piece that we released is a tool called ETCD. It's meant for doing shared configuration amongst servers. Whenever you have a group of servers, the first thing you need to do is they all need to know about each other, and tell each other about the configuration. This is load balancers knowing where the app servers are, the app servers knowing where the databases are and so on. And to do this in the most robust distributed systems way, you have to do this thing in computer science that's very difficult called "consensus". Consensus algorithms is an area of computing, actually speaking about here in a little bit with Eric Brewer, who is a huge academic, a very well respected engineer in the area of consenus and distributed systems. And so we built ETCD, which solves this really hard distributed systems problem in a way that's usable by many operations teams. >> So let me just interrupt you for a second, >> Yeah. >> I mean I've got this sound going off in my head that says "Zookeeper, Zookeeper". >> Exactly. It's Zookeeper for everyone else. >> It's simplified. >> It's a simplified Zookeeper and make it accessible. Areas that a lot of people wanted to use distributed systems but Zookeeper is a little bit too difficult to use as well as really oriented toward the Java and Hadoop community, and there's a whole wide array of other folks out there. >> So it couldn't make as many constraining assumptions as yours, which would simplify. >> It just couldn't be as widely adopted. And so we released ETCD around the same time we released CoreOS Linux and this point, there's been over a thousand projects if you go on GitHub that have built things around ETCD, so our bet was right. Even things like Kubernetes, itself has a hard dependency on ETCD. Without ETCD, Kupernetes will not run. So our hypothesis there was let's make the hardest part of distributed systems easier, and then we will see distributed systems overall accelerate. And that is definitely what's happened with ETCD. >> Okay so help us understand, how you've built up the rest of the infrastructure and then where you'd like to see it go. >> Sure, so the thing that we're targeting is this distributed systems approach. And again we care about this a lot because we think that the ability to manage and service your applications, is what is the key to the security. Keeping things up to date, and when we mean up to date, we don't just mean like patch a vulnerability. Of which we've fixed many of those. But it's also about company's comfort rolling out a new version of their application that they won't break something. If you run your infrastructure in a distributed system, you can roll out a version, if it breaks a little bit of the application that's okay, but you didn't take the whole thing down. And that's kind of the safety net that distributed systems give you. >> Does this require the sort of micro-service approach where there's a clean separation between this new set of bits and the rest of the app? >> It really does. And that's why we've invested so heavily in containers. It requires a container, it also requires the distributed systems components of it. So we first built CoreOS Linux, then we built ETCD, then we started building some distributed systems work very early in the market. And then things like Kubernetes came along, and we were like, "Hey, instead of us reinventing all of this stuff let's partner up with the guys from the Google" if we're monitoring Google's infrastructure for everyone else, let's partner up with the team at Google that built that and get their solution more widely adopted out in the world as well. So the whole platform comes together as this combination of Kubernetes, ETCD, CoreOS Linux, we have our own container runtime called Rocket, which we built primarily to address some security issues in Docker. And so all of these pieces come together and what we call that piece when they're all together is Tectonic. Tectonic is our product that is that Google's infrastructure in a box. >> Okay let me just drop down in the weed for a sec. Derek Collison calls, I'm sorry I'm having a senior moment. And I hope it's not early onset Alzheimer's. The Docker, he calls sort of this generation's Tarball, you know, like to distribute you know, just a sort of I guess equivalent of an executable. Are you providing something that's compatible or does what's inside the container have to change to take advantage of the additional services that's sort of Google-centric. >> Sure. So the packaging, that Tarball piece, we're compatible with. And will always remain compatible with. To even further the compatibility, we've put together standards around what that container should be so many vendors can inter-operate more widely. We've done that first through the app container project and then more recently through the open container initiative which is a joint effort between Docker and us, and the rest of the ecosystem. And so we always, we always want the user to be able to package their application once and then choose whatever system they want to run it in, and the container is what really unlocks that portability. >> Okay. So then let me ask you, does the Google compute engine folks, or the passgroup, do they view you as a way of priming the pump outside the Google ecosystem to get others using their sort of application model or their infrastructure model? Because I'm trying to understand, you know Azure sort of has its own way of looking at the world, Amazon has its own way of looking at the world, are they looking at you as a way of sort of disseminating an approach to building applications? Or managing applications. >> Sure. So the Google team and their motivations behind Kubernetes, you'd have to talk to them about it. My understanding is that they see that as a way to have a very consistent environment between different cloud providers and so on. It is a next-generation way of running infrastructure as well, and its just better than the previous way of running infrastructure. >> That's sort of the answer I was looking for which is, they don't have to either give away their stuff or manage their infrastructure elsewhere. But you're sort of the channel to deliver Google style infrastructure in other environments. >> Sure, I mean Google Cloud's motivation at the end of the day is selling cores of memory. They put all these other services on top of it to make it, to make it more attractive to use, but the end of the day anything that drives more usage of these products is how they run their business. At least that's my perception of it. I'm obviously not speaking on behalf of Google. >> So where are you in attracting showcase customers? Guys who've sort of said "okay we'll bet", if not the entire business, "we'll bet the success of this application or these set of applications on this". >> Right, so first the technology's been very, very exciting. I mean the past two years we've seen this whole space explode in interest, but the discussion around "how does this solve business problems, how does this actually get adopted to these companies and what motivates them to actually do this" outside of the tech being very cool. That's a discussion that is just getting started and in fact in about two weeks here in early December in New York we're hosting that discussion at an event called the Tectonic Summit. The Tectonic Summit is where we're bringing together all the enterprise early adopters that are using containers, using distributed systems, and talking about why did their management and their leadership decide to make investments in these technologies. And what we're seeing are use cases about multi-data center between your physical data center and your cloud environments. We're seeing folks build their next-generation web services. Many businesses that weren't traditionally in the web services businesses need to be now because of mobile, just modern product offerings. And so we're hearing from these large guys and how they're using our technologies and other companies' technologies today to do this, and it's just two weeks at our event. >> Would it be fair to say, I'm listening to this and what seems to becoming across is that your technology makes it easier to abstract not just the machine, which would be CoreOS, but hybrid infrastructure. And it doesn't even have to be hybrid, it could be this data center and that data center. >> Right. >> Or your own data center and a public cloud. >> Exactly. One of the biggest value props of all this is the consistency between environments. We just give this compute, CPUs, memory, storage, we don't care if it's on cloud or if it's a physical data center, we can allow you to manage that in an extremely consistent way. Not just between your data centers but also between development and production, and that's a really important part of all of this. >> Do you need a point of view built into the infrastructure to make it palatable to developers who want a platform? As opposed to just infrastructure. >> Sure. So one of the things that's most exciting about this space is we're splitting the difference of platform and infrastructure. Platform is typically, platform is a service, this very prescriptive way of running your server infrastructure. And there's raw infrastructure which is a like, "here is a canvas, go to town but you need to bring all your own tools". What's happening right now in this distributed systems container space is a middle category. It's still infrastructure, but it's application focused. And at the end of the day that's what a developer is trying to do, is deploy their application out into the server infrastructure. >> So it doesn't have an opinion that tells the developer "we think you should build it this way", but it does hide all the sort of, the different types of hardware and their location pretty much. >> Right, it gives you a prescriptive way to how you package and deploy that, but doesn't put on any constraints of what you can package or deploy. >> Okay. Very interesting. It's sort of like a, if platform as a service was constraining because developers didn't want a straightjacket for how they should build the app, and infrastructures, our service was too raw. You're giving them a middle ground. >> Exactly. It's still infrastructure, but it's a consistent way of running that infrastructure. And that's why companies like Google and Facebook and Twitter do this, they have millions of servers and data centers all over the world. >> And they can't prescribe. >> Well they need to be able to have a consistent way of doing it so that they don't have to have an infinitely growing operations team as they scale their infrastructure. You need to have consistency, but at the same time you need to be able to have a wide array of tools and things to deploy and interact with that infrastructure. So it's that middle ground, and that's why the hyperscale guys have adopted it because they're forced to, because they have to have that consistency to have that scale. >> Okay let me ask you then, not on the, separate from the hyperscale guys, the sort of newest distributed system that mainstream enterprises are struggling with and sort of off the record, maybe choking on, you know is Hadoop. Because they haven't had to do elastic infrastructure before and like you said the Zookeeper is not that easy, and there's 22 other projects by the way that also have to get stood up. Can you help someone who is perhaps flailing in that or if not flailing, finding the skills overhead really, really tough? >> So, Hadoop. Let's remember Hadoop's roots. Where did that come from? >> Well Yahoo!. >> Well but where did Yahoo! get the idea? >> Oh yeah, Google, sorry. >> Exactly. Yahoo! gets all the credit for it. Even though it was a Google paper that was modeled after. And so again, if Kubernetes and containers and everything is the equivalent of Google's borg, which is that raw application infrastructure, Hadoop is a certain application that consumes the spare resources on that cluster in order to do these map reducing computational jobs. >> So the next question is, how much can you simplify what mainstream enterprises do that don't have the Google infrastructure yet? >> Right, so they have to manage that as its own whole separate thing. It's its own set of infrastructure, it's its own set of servers to manage their Hadoop cluster. If you combine it with this application infrastructure, we just treat Hadoop as another application that runs on the platform. It's not its own distinct, special thing. It's just another application running out there along with your web servers and your databases, and everything else, you have your Hadoop workload in the mix. So you have this consistent pool of infrastructure and Hadoop is just another application that's monitored or managed the exact same way as everything else. >> So, for folks who are a little more familiar with Mesos, which is the opposite of a virtual machine, it makes many machines look like a single one, I assume. >> Well this is a very similar message to Mesos. Mesos is also building Google-like infrastructure for everyone else. The difference with what we're doing is really we just partnered up with the team that built that at Google, and focusing our solution around Kubernetes which is what the Google efforts are behind. So we're all modeling Google's infrastructure. >> Okay. >> Mesos took their own spin on it with Kubernetes, and CoreOS and ETCD, we're taking a different spin on it. >> So and what other products have you built out that we haven't touched on, and what do you see the roadmap looking like? >> Sure, so really, all these things we've talked about are open source projects. They're all components for building this Google-like infrastructure. Tectonic is our platform for companies that want this style of infrastructure but they don't want to have to figure out all the different pieces themselves. And we think once companies adopt Tectonic, just this general style of infrastructure, that we can give them all the benefits of this, better utilization, that consistency, easier management of lots and lots of servers and so on. But we also think we can dramatically improve the security of their infrastructure as well. And that's what we're investing in our roadmap is to leverage this kind of change, and then with that change we can do some things to the infrastructure that was never possible before. >> Okay. >> And that's the things that we're investing in as a company. >> Okay, great. We're going to break at that, this is George Gilbert, at Structure '15, with Alex Polvi of CoreOS. And we'll be back in just a few minutes. (light music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vollante. >> The rise of Kubernetes came about through a combination of forces that were, in hindsight, quite a long shot. Amazon's dominance created momentum for Cloud native application development, and the need for newer and simpler experiences, beyond just easily spinning up computer as a service. This wave crashed into innovations from a startup named Docker, and a reluctant competitor in Google, that needed a way to change the game on Amazon and the Cloud. Now, add in the effort of Red Hat, which needed a new path beyond Enterprise Linux, and oh, by the way, it was just about to commit to a path of a Kubernetes alternative for OpenShift and figure out a governance structure to hurt all the cats and the ecosystem and you get the remarkable ascendancy of Kubernetes. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tapped the back stories of a new documentary that explains the improbable events that led to the creation of Kubernetes. We'll share some new survey data from ETR and commentary from the many early the innovators who came on theCUBE during the exciting period since the founding of Docker in 2013, which marked a new era in computing, because we're talking about Kubernetes and developers today, the hoodie is on. And there's a new two part documentary that I just referenced, it's out and it was produced by Honeypot on Kubernetes, part one and part two, tells a story of how Kubernetes came to prominence and many of the players that made it happen. Now, a lot of these players, including Tim Hawkin Kelsey Hightower, Craig McLuckie, Joe Beda, Brian Grant Solomon Hykes, Jerry Chen and others came on theCUBE during formative years of containers going mainstream and the rise of Kubernetes. John Furrier and Stu Miniman were at the many shows we covered back then and they unpacked what was happening at the time. We'll share the commentary from the guests that they interviewed and try to add some context. Now let's start with the concept of developer defined structure, DDI. Jerry Chen was at VMware and he could see the trends that were evolving. He left VMware to become a venture capitalist at Greylock. Docker was his first investment. And he saw the future this way. >> What happens is when you define infrastructure software you can program it. You make it portable. And that the beauty of this cloud wave what I call DDI's. Now, to your point is every piece of infrastructure from storage, networking, to compute has an API, right? And, and AWS there was an early trend where S3, EBS, EC2 had API. >> As building blocks too. >> As building blocks, exactly. >> Not monolithic. >> Monolithic building blocks every little building bone block has it own API and just like Docker really is the API for this unit of the cloud enables developers to define how they want to build their applications, how to network them know as Wills talked about, and how you want to secure them and how you want to store them. And so the beauty of this generation is now developers are determining how apps are built, not just at the, you know, end user, you know, iPhone app layer the data layer, the storage layer, the networking layer. So every single level is being disrupted by this concept of a DDI and where, how you build use and actually purchase IT has changed. And you're seeing the incumbent vendors like Oracle, VMware Microsoft try to react but you're seeing a whole new generation startup. >> Now what Jerry was explaining is that this new abstraction layer that was being built here's some ETR data that quantifies that and shows where we are today. The chart shows net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and market share which represents the pervasiveness in the survey set. So as Jerry and the innovators who created Docker saw the cloud was becoming prominent and you can see it still has spending velocity that's elevated above that 40% red line which is kind of a magic mark of momentum. And of course, it's very prominent on the X axis as well. And you see the low level infrastructure virtualization and that even floats above servers and storage and networking right. Back in 2013 the conversation with VMware. And by the way, I remember having this conversation deeply at the time with Chad Sakac was we're going to make this low level infrastructure invisible, and we intend to make virtualization invisible, IE simplified. And so, you see above the two arrows there related to containers, container orchestration and container platforms, which are abstraction layers and services above the underlying VMs and hardware. And you can see the momentum that they have right there with the cloud and AI and RPA. So you had these forces that Jerry described that were taking shape, and this picture kind of summarizes how they came together to form Kubernetes. And the upper left, Of course you see AWS and we inserted a picture from a post we did, right after the first reinvent in 2012, it was obvious to us at the time that the cloud gorilla was AWS and had all this momentum. Now, Solomon Hykes, the founder of Docker, you see there in the upper right. He saw the need to simplify the packaging of applications for cloud developers. Here's how he described it. Back in 2014 in theCUBE with John Furrier >> Container is a unit of deployment, right? It's the format in which you package your application all the files, all the executables libraries all the dependencies in one thing that you can move to any server and deploy in a repeatable way. So it's similar to how you would run an iOS app on an iPhone, for example. >> A Docker at the time was a 30% company and it just changed its name from .cloud. And back to the diagram you have Google with a red question mark. So why would you need more than what Docker had created. Craig McLuckie, who was a product manager at Google back then explains the need for yet another abstraction. >> We created the strong separation between infrastructure operations and application operations. And so, Docker has created a portable framework to take it, basically a binary and run it anywhere which is an amazing capability, but that's not enough. You also need to be able to manage that with a framework that can run anywhere. And so, the union of Docker and Kubernetes provides this framework where you're completely abstracted from the underlying infrastructure. You could use VMware, you could use Red Hat open stack deployment. You could run on another major cloud provider like rec. >> Now Google had this huge cloud infrastructure but no commercial cloud business compete with AWS. At least not one that was taken seriously at the time. So it needed a way to change the game. And it had this thing called Google Borg, which is a container management system and scheduler and Google looked at what was happening with virtualization and said, you know, we obviously could do better Joe Beda, who was with Google at the time explains their mindset going back to the beginning. >> Craig and I started up Google compute engine VM as a service. And the odd thing to recognize is that, nobody who had been in Google for a long time thought that there was anything to this VM stuff, right? Cause Google had been on containers for so long. That was their mindset board was the way that stuff was actually deployed. So, you know, my boss at the time, who's now at Cloudera booted up a VM for the first time, and anybody in the outside world be like, Hey, that's really cool. And his response was like, well now what? Right. You're sitting at a prompt. Like that's not super interesting. How do I run my app? Right. Which is, that's what everybody's been struggling with, with cloud is not how do I get a VM up? How do I actually run my code? >> Okay. So Google never really did virtualization. They were looking at the market and said, okay what can we do to make Google relevant in cloud. Here's Eric Brewer from Google. Talking on theCUBE about Google's thought process at the time. >> One interest things about Google is it essentially makes no use of virtual machines internally. And that's because Google started in 1998 which is the same year that VMware started was kind of brought the modern virtual machine to bear. And so Google infrastructure tends to be built really on kind of classic Unix processes and communication. And so scaling that up, you get a system that works a lot with just processes and containers. So kind of when I saw containers come along with Docker, we said, well, that's a good model for us. And we can take what we know internally which was called Borg a big scheduler. And we can turn that into Kubernetes and we'll open source it. And suddenly we have kind of a cloud version of Google that works the way we would like it to work. >> Now, Eric Brewer gave us the bumper sticker version of the story there. What he reveals in the documentary that I referenced earlier is that initially Google was like, why would we open source our secret sauce to help competitors? So folks like Tim Hockin and Brian Grant who were on the original Kubernetes team, went to management and pressed hard to convince them to bless open sourcing Kubernetes. Here's Hockin's explanation. >> When Docker landed, we saw the community building and building and building. I mean, that was a snowball of its own, right? And as it caught on we realized we know what this is going to we know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes, once you get beyond two or three of them, and we know how to build that, right? We got a ton of experience here. Like we went to our leadership and said, you know, please this is going to happen with us or without us. And I think it, the world would be better if we helped. >> So the open source strategy became more compelling as they studied the problem because it gave Google a way to neutralize AWS's advantage because with containers you could develop on AWS for example, and then run the application anywhere like Google's cloud. So it not only gave developers a path off of AWS. If Google could develop a strong service on GCP they could monetize that play. Now, focus your attention back to the diagram which shows this smiling, Alex Polvi from Core OS which was acquired by Red Hat in 2018. And he saw the need to bring Linux into the cloud. I mean, after all Linux was powering the internet it was the OS for enterprise apps. And he saw the need to extend its path into the cloud. Now here's how he described it at an OpenStack event in 2015. >> Similar to what happened with Linux. Like yes, there is still need for Linux and Windows and other OSs out there. But by and large on production, web infrastructure it's all Linux now. And you were able to get onto one stack. And how were you able to do that? It was, it was by having a truly open consistent API and a commitment into not breaking APIs and, so on. That allowed Linux to really become ubiquitous in the data center. Yes, there are other OSs, but Linux buy in large for production infrastructure, what is being used. And I think you'll see a similar phenomenon happen for this next level up cause we're treating the whole data center as a computer instead of trading one in visual instance is just the computer. And that's the stuff that Kubernetes to me and someone is doing. And I think there will be one that shakes out over time and we believe that'll be Kubernetes. >> So Alex saw the need for a dominant container orchestration platform. And you heard him, they made the right bet. It would be Kubernetes. Now Red Hat, Red Hat is been around since 1993. So it has a lot of on-prem. So it needed a future path to the cloud. So they rang up Google and said, hey. What do you guys have going on in this space? So Google, was kind of non-committal, but it did expose that they were thinking about doing something that was you know, pre Kubernetes. It was before it was called Kubernetes. But hey, we have this thing and we're thinking about open sourcing it, but Google's internal debates, and you know, some of the arm twisting from the engine engineers, it was taking too long. So Red Hat said, well, screw it. We got to move forward with OpenShift. So we'll do what Apple and Airbnb and Heroku are doing and we'll build on an alternative. And so they were ready to go with Mesos which was very much more sophisticated than Kubernetes at the time and much more mature, but then Google the last minute said, hey, let's do this. So Clayton Coleman with Red Hat, he was an architect. And he leaned in right away. He was one of the first outside committers outside of Google. But you still led these competing forces in the market. And internally there were debates. Do we go with simplicity or do we go with system scale? And Hen Goldberg from Google explains why they focus first on simplicity in getting that right. >> We had to defend of why we are only supporting 100 nodes in the first release of Kubernetes. And they explained that they know how to build for scale. They've done that. They know how to do it, but realistically most of users don't need large clusters. So why create this complexity? >> So Goldberg explains that rather than competing right away with say Mesos or Docker swarm, which were far more baked they made the bet to keep it simple and go for adoption and ubiquity, which obviously turned out to be the right choice. But the last piece of the puzzle was governance. Now Google promised to open source Kubernetes but when it started to open up to contributors outside of Google, the code was still controlled by Google and developers had to sign Google paper that said Google could still do whatever it wanted. It could sub license, et cetera. So Google had to pass the Baton to an independent entity and that's how CNCF was started. Kubernetes was its first project. And let's listen to Chris Aniszczyk of the CNCF explain >> CNCF is all about providing a neutral home for cloud native technology. And, you know, it's been about almost two years since our first board meeting. And the idea was, you know there's a certain set of technology out there, you know that are essentially microservice based that like live in containers that are essentially orchestrated by some process, right? That's essentially what we mean when we say cloud native right. And CNCF was seated with Kubernetes as its first project. And you know, as, as we've seen over the last couple years Kubernetes has grown, you know, quite well they have a large community a diverse con you know, contributor base and have done, you know, kind of extremely well. They're one of actually the fastest, you know highest velocity, open source projects out there, maybe. >> Okay. So this is how we got to where we are today. This ETR data shows container orchestration offerings. It's the same X Y graph that we showed earlier. And you can see where Kubernetes lands not we're standing that Kubernetes not a company but respondents, you know, they doing Kubernetes. They maybe don't know, you know, whose platform and it's hard with the ETR taxon economy as a fuzzy and survey data because Kubernetes is increasingly becoming embedded into cloud platforms. And IT pros, they may not even know which one specifically. And so the reason we've linked these two platforms Kubernetes and Red Hat OpenShift is because OpenShift right now is a dominant revenue player in the space and is increasingly popular PaaS layer. Yeah. You could download Kubernetes and do what you want with it. But if you're really building enterprise apps you're going to need support. And that's where OpenShift comes in. And there's not much data on this but we did find this chart from AMDA which show was the container software market, whatever that really is. And Red Hat has got 50% of it. This is revenue. And, you know, we know the muscle of IBM is behind OpenShift. So there's really not hard to believe. Now we've got some other data points that show how Kubernetes is becoming less visible and more embedded under of the hood. If you will, as this chart shows this is data from CNCF's annual survey they had 1800 respondents here, and the data showed that 79% of respondents use certified Kubernetes hosted platforms. Amazon elastic container service for Kubernetes was the most prominent 39% followed by Azure Kubernetes service at 23% in Azure AKS engine at 17%. With Google's GKE, Google Kubernetes engine behind those three. Now. You have to ask, okay, Google. Google's management Initially they had concerns. You know, why are we open sourcing such a key technology? And the premise was, it would level the playing field. And for sure it has, but you have to ask has it driven the monetization Google was after? And I would've to say no, it probably didn't. But think about where Google would've been. If it hadn't open source Kubernetes how relevant would it be in the cloud discussion. Despite its distant third position behind AWS and Microsoft or even fourth, if you include Alibaba without Kubernetes Google probably would be much less prominent or possibly even irrelevant in cloud, enterprise cloud. Okay. Let's wrap up with some comments on the state of Kubernetes and maybe a thought or two about, you know, where we're headed. So look, no shocker Kubernetes for all its improbable beginning has gone mainstream in the past year or so. We're seeing much more maturity and support for state full workloads and big ecosystem support with respect to better security and continued simplification. But you know, it's still pretty complex. It's getting better, but it's not VMware level of maturity. For example, of course. Now adoption has always been strong for Kubernetes, for cloud native companies who start with containers on day one, but we're seeing many more. IT organizations adopting Kubernetes as it matures. It's interesting, you know, Docker set out to be the system of the cloud and Kubernetes has really kind of become that. Docker desktop is where Docker's action really is. That's where Docker is thriving. It sold off Docker swarm to Mirantis has made some tweaks. Docker has made some tweaks to its licensing model to be able to continue to evolve its its business. To hear more about that at DockerCon. And as we said, years ago we expected Kubernetes to become less visible Stu Miniman and I talked about this in one of our predictions post and really become more embedded into other platforms. And that's exactly what's happening here but it's still complicated. Remember, remember the... Go back to the early and mid cycle of VMware understanding things like application performance you needed folks in lab coats to really remediate problems and dig in and peel the onion and scale the system you know, and in some ways you're seeing that dynamic repeated with Kubernetes, security performance scale recovery, when something goes wrong all are made more difficult by the rapid pace at which the ecosystem is evolving Kubernetes. But it's definitely headed in the right direction. So what's next for Kubernetes we would expect further simplification and you're going to see more abstractions. We live in this world of almost perpetual abstractions. Now, as Kubernetes improves support from multi cluster it will be begin to treat those clusters as a unified group. So kind of abstracting multiple clusters and treating them as, as one to be managed together. And this is going to create a lot of ecosystem focus on scaling globally. Okay, once you do that, you're going to have to worry about latency and then you're going to have to keep pace with security as you expand the, the threat area. And then of course recovery what happens when something goes wrong, more complexity, the harder it is to recover and that's going to require new services to share resources across clusters. So look for that. You also should expect more automation. It's going to be driven by the host cloud providers as Kubernetes supports more state full applications and begins to extend its cluster management. Cloud providers will inject as much automation as possible into the system. Now and finally, as these capabilities mature we would expect to see better support for data intensive workloads like, AI and Machine learning and inference. Schedule with these workloads becomes harder because they're so resource intensive and performance management becomes more complex. So that's going to have to evolve. I mean, frankly, many of the things that Kubernetes team way back when, you know they back burn it early on, for example, you saw in Docker swarm or Mesos they're going to start to enter the scene now with Kubernetes as they start to sort of prioritize some of those more complex functions. Now, the last thing I'll ask you to think about is what's next beyond Kubernetes, you know this isn't it right with serverless and IOT in the edge and new data, heavy workloads there's something that's going to disrupt Kubernetes. So in that, by the way, in that CNCF survey nearly 40% of respondents were using serverless and that's going to keep growing. So how is that going to change the development model? You know, Andy Jassy once famously said that if they had to start over with Amazon retail, they'd start with serverless. So let's keep an eye on the horizon to see what's coming next. All right, that's it for now. I want to thank my colleagues, Stephanie Chan who helped research this week's topics and Alex Myerson on the production team, who also manages the breaking analysis podcast, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on socials, so thanks to all of you. Remember these episodes, they're all available as podcasts wherever you listen, just search breaking analysis podcast. Don't forget to check out ETR website @etr.ai. We'll also publish. We publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can get in touch with me, email me directly david.villane@Siliconangle.com or DM me at D Vollante. You can comment on our LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vollante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, everybody. Thanks for watching. Stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering Red Hat Summit 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Good to have you back here on theCube we are live in Boston at the Convention Center here. Along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls and on theCUBE we're continuing our coverage of Red Hat Summit 2019 in Boston, as I said. Joined now by Reza Shafii, who is the VP of Platform Services at Red Hat. Former CoreOS guy >> That's right. >> Stu actually has his CoreOS socks on, >> He told me. >> Today, yeah, so he came dressed for the occasion. >> Shh, can't see those on camera, John. I can't be wearing vendor here. >> Don't show it to the camera. >> Well I just say they're cool! They're cool. Glad to have you with us, Reza. And first off, your impression, you have a big announcement, right, with OpenShift. OpenShift 4 being launched officially on the keynote stage today. That's some big news, right? >> It's a big deal, it's a big deal. The way I think about it is that it's really a culmination of the efforts that we planned out when we sat down between the CoreOS leadership team and the Red Hat leadership team, when the acquisition was closed. And we planned this out, I remember a meeting we had in the white board room. We planned this out. In terms of bringing the best of OpenShift and CoreOS technology together. And it's really great to see it out there on the keynote, and actually all demoed and working. >> And working, right? Key part. >> Reza, dig in for us a little bit here, because it's one thing to say okay, we got a white board and we put things together. You know, when I looked at both companies, at first both, CoreOS before the acquisition and Red Hat, I mean open source, absolutely as its core. I remember talking to the CoreOS team, I'm like, you guys are gonna build a whole bunch of really cool tools, but what's the business there? Do you guys think you're gonna be the next Red Hat? Come on. Well, now you're part of Red Hat. So, give us a little bit of the insight as to what it took to get from there to the announcements, CoreOS infused in many of the pieces that we heard announced this week. >> Yeah, so the way I like to think about it is that Red Hat's OpenShift's roots, it started with making sure that they create a really nice comfortable surface area for the deaf teams. The deaf teams can go in and start pushing the applications and it just ensures that it's running those applications in the right way. The CoreOS roots came from the operations perspective and the system administrator. We always looked at the world from the system administrator. Yes, you're right, CoreOS had a number of technologies they were working on, etcd, Rocket, clair. I used to joke that there's a constellation of open source services that we're working on, but where is the one product? And, towards the end, right before the acquisition, the one product I think was pretty clear is Tectonic, the Kubernetes software. Now, if you look at Tectonic, the key value difference was automated operations. The core tenants of what Alex Polvi and Brandon Philips said into the mindset of the company was we're outnumbered, the number of machines out there is going to be way more than we can handle, therefore we need to automate all operations. They started that on the operating system itself, with CoreOS, the namesake of the company. And then they brought that to Kubernetes. What you see with OpenShift is, OpenShift 4, you see us bringing that to, not only the Kubernetes core, that's the foundation of OpenShift 4, so all capabilities of running Kubernetes are automated with 20 plus operators now. But you see that apply to all the other value capabilities that are on top of OpenShift as well, and we're bringing that to ISV. I was walking around and a number of ISV's have their operators as the number one thing they're advertising. So you're seeing automated operations really take hold and with OpenShift 4 being a foundation for that. >> You talk about operations or operators, you have Operator Hub that was launched earlier this year, what was the driving force behind that? And then ultimately what are you trying to get out of that in terms of advancement and going forward here? >> Right, I think it means it's worked. Going back a little bit of history on this, the operator pattern was coined at CoreOS as a way to do things on a Kubernetes cluster to automate operations. The right way. You have to expose it as a proper API, you have to use a controller, so on and so forth. Then as the team started doing that we realized well there's a lot of demand for this pattern, we started documenting it, describing it better and so on. But then we realized there's a good case for a framework to help people build these automations. Therefore we announced the operator framework at Cubeacon. I think it was a year and a half ago. What happened then was interesting, suddenly we started seeing hundreds plus operators being built on the operator framework. But, it was hard because you could see five Redis operators, 10 MySQL operators. It was hard for our customers to know where can I find the right set of operators that have the right functionality and how do they compare to each other? OperatorHub.IO is a registry that we launched together with AWS, Google and Microsoft to solve for that problem. Now that we have a way to create operators easily and capture that automated operations, we have sort of created a pattern and a framework around it, where do you go to find the right set of operators. >> It's an interesting point because if you look in the container space, especially Kubernetes, it's like, okay well what's standardized, what works across all of these environments? We always worry, I've probably got some pain from previous projects and foundations as to well what's certified and what's not and how do we do that? So, did I see there's a certification now for operators and how do you balance that we need it to work everywhere, we don't wanna have it's Red Hat's building an open ecosystem not something that's limited to only this? >> Yes. So OperatorHub.IO is a community initiative. And, every operator you find on there should work on any Kubernetes. So in fact as part of the vetting process we make sure that that's the case. And then on the certification we launched today, actually, and you can see a number of, we have already 20 plus operators that are certified. This is where we take it a step further and we work with the vendors to make sure that it works on OpenShift. It's following a number of guidelines that we have, in terms of using, for example, Rail as the basis. They work with us to run the updates through security checks and so on. And that's just to give our enterprise customers more levels of guarantees and validation, if they would like to. >> So what are they getting out of that, out of the certification system? What, I guess, stability and certainty and all those kinds of things that I'm looking for, standardization of some kind, is that what's driving that? >> It's simple, at the end of the day they got three things. They get automated updates that are pushed through the OpenShift update mechanism. So if you are using the Redis one, for example, and it's certified, you're gonna be able to update the Redis operator through the same cluster administration mechanism, then you would apply it to the entire cluster itself. You see updates from Redis come in, you can put it through the same approval work so on, so on. The second is they get support. So they get first line of support from Red Hat. They can call Red Hat, our customers and actually we work with them on that. And the third is that they actually get that security vulnerability scans that we put them through to make sure that they pass certain checks. And actually one last one, they also get Rail as the basis of the operator, so, yup. >> Reza, help bring us into the customer point of view. What does all this mean to them, what are the big challenges, how do they modernize their applications and get more applications moving along this path? >> Yeah, in this case the operator customer is mainly the infrastructure administrators. It's important to point that out. The developers will get some benefit on that in that it's self service, so the provision, but there's other ways to do that as well. You can go to a Helm chart, deploy that Helm chart, you get that level of self service automated provisioning. To go ahead and configure for example, a charted MongoDB database on a Kubernetes cluster, you have to create something like 20 different objects. And then to update that to change the charts, you have to go and modify all those 20 different objects. Let's just stay at that level alone. An operator makes that before different parameters on a yaml file that you change. The operator takes that and applies all these configurations for you. So, it's all about simplifying the life of the infrastructure administrators. I truly believe that operators, human operators, infrastructure administrators are one of the least appreciated personas right now that we have out there. They're not the most important ones, but there is a lot of pain points and challenges that they have we're not really thinking about too much. And I think OpenShift goes a long way and operators go a long way to actually start thinking about their pain point as well. >> So what do you think their reaction was this morning when they're looking, first off, the general announcement, right? And then some of the demonstrations and all those things that are occurring? Is there, do you have or are you talking to customers? Are you getting the sense of relief or of anticipation or expectation? I mean, how would you characterize that? >> Think they're falling into a couple of different buckets. There's the customers we've talked to, for awhile now, that know this stuff, so this is not super new to them, but they're very happy to see it. There's one big automaker that's a customer of us and the main human operator was telling me awhile ago that he does not want any service on the cluster unless it has an operator, this is a year and a half ago. And he kept pushing me well I want a Kafka one and I want an Elasticsearch one, and you know. And we, CoreOS, were too small to try to build that ourselves. Obviously that's not, we can't maintain a Kafka operator and a CoreOS one. Now, he's able to go to our operator APP, he's gonna be able to get a Kafka operator that's maintained by Kafka experts. He's gonna be able to get a Redis operator that's maintained by Redis experts. So that bucket of customers are super happy. And then there's another one that's just starting to understand the power of all this. And I think they're just starting to kick the tires and play around with this. Hopefully they will get to the same point as the first bucket of customers, and be asking for everything to be operator based all the time. >> Convert the tire kickers, you're gonna be okay, right? >> That's right. >> Thank you for the time. >> Thank you. >> We appreciate that and continued success at Red Hat, and, once again, good to see you. >> Thank you, always a pleasure. >> You bet. Live, here on theCUBE, you're watching Red Hat Summit 2019. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon 2018, Cloud Native Con. It's the Cube, I'm John Furrier, your host with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Ashesh Badani, who is the Vice-President and General Manager of Cloud Platforms at Red Hat. Great to see you, welcome back to the Cube. >> Thanks for having me on. Always good to be back. >> So you guys, again, we talk every year with you. It's almost like a check-in. So what's new? You got some big, obviously, the news about the IBM. We don't really want to get into that detail. I know you just a stop on that because it's already out there. But you guys had great success with platformers of service. Now you got the growth of Kubecon and Cloud Native Con, 8000 attendees and users. There's uptake. What's the update on the Red Had side? >> Yeah, we're excited. Excited to be back at Kubecon. It's bigger and better than it's ever been, I think so. That's fantastic. We've been investing in this community for over four years now, since 2014. Really, from the earliest days. Based the entire platform on it. Continue growing that, adding lots of customers across the world. And I think what's really been gratifying for us to see is just the diversity of participants. Both in user perspective as well as the wider ecosystem. So whether you're a storage player, a networking player, management, marketing, what have you. Everything sort of building around this ecosystem. I think we're creating a great amount of value and we're seeing diverse applications being built. >> So you guys have been good then on (mumbles), good timing, a lot of things are going on. This show is an open-source community, right. And that's been a great thing. This is kind of where the end users come from. But two other personas come in that we're seeing participate heavily. The IT pro, the IT expert, and then the classic developer. So you have kind of a melting pot of how this is kind of horizontally connecting. You guys have been successful in the IT side. Where is this impacting the end users?6 How is this open-source movement impacting IT, specifically, and at the end of the day, the developers who are writing code? Have to get more stuff out. What's your thoughts? >> So, we hosted OpenShift Commons yesterday. OpenShift Commons, for the the folks who don't know, is our gathering of participants within the larger OpenShift community. We had lots of end users come and talk about the reason they're adopting a Kubernetes-based platform is to get greater productivity. So for example, if you're someone like Progressive Insurance, an established organization, how do you release applications quicker? How do you make your developers more productive? How do you enable them to have more languages, tools, frameworks at their disposal? To be able to compete in this world where you've got start-ups, you've got other companies trying to compete aggressively with you. I think it's a big dent here, right? It's not just for if you work traditional IT. But it's for if you were a company of all sizes. >> When you talk about customers, every customer is different. You've got, you look at IT, everything is additive, it tends to be a bit of a heterogeneous mess when you get there. Help connect for us what are you hearing from customers? How does, not just Kubernetes, but everything going on here in the Cloud Native environment? How is it helping them? How is it changing the way that they do their business and how's Red Hat involved? >> So one thing we've been noticing is that Hybrid Cloud is here and here to stay. So we've consistently been hearing this from customers. They've invested lots of money and time and energy, skills, in their existing environments. And they want to take advantage of public clouds. But they want to do that with flexibility, with portability, to bring to bear. What we've been trying to do is focus on exactly that. How do we help solve that problem and provide an abstraction. How do you provide primitives. So, for example, we announced our support of Knative, and how we'll make that available as part of OpenShift. Why's that? Well, how can we provide Serverless primitives within the platform so folks can have the flexibility to be able to adopt next-generation technologies. But to be able to do that consistently regardless of where they deploy. >> So, I love that. Talk about meeting the customers there. One of the things that really strikes me, there's so much change going on in the industry. And that's an area that Red Hat has a couple decades of experience. Maybe help explain how Red Hat in bringing some of that enterprise, oversight. Just like they've done for Linux for a long time. >> Yeah, yeah. Stu, you're following us very closely, as are you John, and the team at the Cube. We're trying to embrace that change as it comes upon us. So, I think the last time I was here, I was here with Alex Polvi of Core OS. Red Hat acquired Core OS in January. >> Big deal. >> Yeah, big acquisition for us. And now we're starting to see the fruits of some of that labor. In terms of integrating that technology. Why did we do that? We wanted to get more automation into the platform. So, customers have said, hey, look, I want these clusters to be more self-managing, self-healing. And so we've been really focused on saying how can we take those challenges the customers have, bring that directly into a platform so they're performing more and more like the expectations that they have in the public cloud, but in these diverse, introgenous, environments. >> That speaks to the operating model of cloud. You guys have a wholistic view because you're Red Hat. You got a lot of customers. You have the Dev House model, you got the Kubernetes container orchestration, micro-services. How does that all connect together for the customer? I mean, is it Turn Key and Open Shift? You guys had that nice bet with Core OS, pays big, huge dividends. What are some of those fruits in the operating model? So the customer has to think about the systems. It's a systems model, it's an operating system, so-to-speak. But they still got to develop and build apps. So you got to have a systems-wholistic view and be able to deliver the value. Where does it all connect? What's your explanation? >> So distributed systems are complex. And we're at the point where no individual can keep track of the hundreds, the thousands, the hundred-thousand containers that are running. So, the only way, then, to do it is to be able to say, how can the system be smart? So, at the Commons yesterday we had sort of a tongue-in-cheek slide that said, the factory of the future will only have two employees, a man and a dog. The man's there to feed the dog, and the dog's in place to ensure the man doesn't go off and actually touch the equipment. And the point really being, how can we bring technology that can bring that to bare. So, one example of that is actually through our Core OS acquisition. The Core OS team was working on a technology called, operators. Which is to say, how can we take the human knowledge that exists. To take complex software that's built by third parties and bring that natively into the platform and then have the platform go and manage them on behalf of the actual customer itself. Now we've got over 60 companies building operators. And we've, in fact, taken entire open-shift platforms, put operators to work. So it's completely automated and self-managed. >> The trend of hybrid is hot. You mentioned it's here to stay. We would argue that it's going to be a gateway to multi-cloud. And as you look at the stacks that are developing and the choices, the old concept of a stack-- and Chris was on earlier, the CTO of CNCF. And I kind of agree with him. The old notion of stack is changing because if you've got a horizontal, scale-able cloud framework, you got specialty with machine learning at the top, you got a whole new type of stack model. But, multi-cloud is what the customers want choice for. Red Hat's been around long enough to know what the multi-vendor word was years ago. Multi-vendor choice, multi-cloud choice. Similar paradigms happening now. Modern version of multi-vendor is multi-cloud. How do you guys see the multi-cloud evolution? >> So we keep investing and helping to make that a reality. So, last week, we made some announcements around Open Shift dedicators. Open Shift dedicators is the Open Shift manage service, or AWS. Open Shift is available in ways where it can be self-managed directly by customers in a variety of environments. Directly run around any public cloud or open stack, or what you'd like environment. We have third-party partners. For example, DXC D-systems providing managed versions of Open Shift. And then you can have Red Hat managed Open Shift for you. For example, on AWS, or coming next year, with Microsoft. Through our partnership for Open Shift on Azure. So you as a customer now have, I think, more choice than you ever had before. In terms of adopting Dev-Ops or dealings with micro-services. But then having flexibility with regard to taking advantage of tools, services, that are coming from, pretty much, every corner of IT industry. >> You guys have a huge install base. You've been servicing customers for many, many years, decades. Highest level support. Take us through what a customer, a traditional Red Hat customer that might not be fully embracing the cloud in the past, now is on-boarding to the cloud. What's the playbook? What do you guys offer them? How do you engage with them? What's the playbook? Is it, just buy Open Shift? Is there a series of-- how do you guys bring that Red Hat core Lenux customer that's been on Prim. Maybe a little bit out of shadow IT in the cloud, saying, hey, we're doing additional transformation. What's the playbook? >> So, great question, John. So, first fall into the transformation might be an over-hyped term. Might be a peak hype at this point in time. But I think that the bigger point from my perspective is how do you move more dollars, more euros, more spend towards innovation. That's what every company is sort of trying to do. So, our focus is, how can we build on the investments that they've made? At this point in time, (mumbles) Lenux probably has 50,000 customers. So, pretty much, every customer, any size, around the world, is some kind of Lenux user. How can we then say, how can we now provide you a platform to have greater agility and be able to develop these services quicker? But, at the same time, not forget the things that enterprises care about. So, last week we had our first big security issue released on Kubernetes. The privilege escalation flaw. And so, obviously, we participate in the community. We had a bunch of folks, along with others addressing that, and then we rolled our patches. Our patch roll-out went back all the way to version 3.2, 3.2 shipped in early 2016. Now, the one hand you say, hey, everyone has Dev-Ops, why do you need to have a patch for something that's from 2016? That's because customers still aren't moving as quickly as we'd like. So, I just want to temper, there's an enthusiasm with regard to, everyone's quick, everything's lightning fast. At the same time, we often find-- and so, going back to your question, we often find some enterprises will just take a little bit longer, in reality to kind of get-- (both speaking at once) >> Work loads, they're not going to be moving overnight. >> That's right. >> So there's some legacy from those workloads. >> Right, right. And so, what we want to do is ensure, for example, the platform. So we talked about the security and lifecycle. But, is supporting these Cloud Native, next generation, stateless applications, but also established legacy stateful applications all on the same platform. And so the work we're doing is ensure we don't-- you know, it's like, leave no application behind. So, either the work that we'll do, for example, with Red Hat Innovation Labs. We help sort of move that forward. Or with GSIs, global integrated, real integrators to bring those to bare. >> Ashesh, wonder if we could drill a little bit. There's a lot of re-training that needs to happen. I've been reading lots on there. It's not, oh, I bring in this new Cloud Native team that's just going to totally re-vamp it and take my old admins and fire them all. That's not the reality. There's not enough training people to do all of this wonderful stuff. We see how many people are at this show. Explain what Red Hat's doing. Some of the training maturation, education paths. >> So we do a lot of work on the just core training aspect, learning services, get folks up to speed. There's work that happens, for example, in CNCF. But we do the same thing around certifications, around administering the systems, developing applications, and so on. So that's one aspect that needs to be learned. But then there's another aspect with regard to how do we get the actual platform, itself, to be smart enough to do things, that in the past, individual people had to do? So, for example, if we were to sort of play out the operator vision fully and through execution. In the past, perhaps you needed several database admins. But, if you had operators built for databases, which, for example couch, base, and mongo, and others, have built out. You can now run those within the platform and then that goes and manages on behalf. Now you don't need as many database admins, you free those people up now to build actual business innovation value. So, I think what we're trying to do is increasingly think about how we sort of, if you will, move value up the stack to free up resources to kind of work on building the next generation of services. And I think that's our business transformation work. >> And I think, even though digital transformation is totally over-hyped, which I agree, it actually is really relevant. Because I think the cloud wave, right now, has been certainly validated. But what's recognized is that, people have to re-imagine how they do their infrastructure. And IT is programmable. You're seeing the network. The holy trinity of IT is storage, networking, and compute. So, when you start thinking about that in a way that's cloud-based, it's going to require them to, I don't want to say re-platform, but really move to an operating-environment that's different, that they used to have. And I think that is real. We're seeing evidence of that. With that in mind, what's next? What do you guys got on the horizon? What's the momentum here? What's the most important story that you guys are telling here at Red Hat? And what's around the corner? >> Yeah, so obviously, I talked about a few announcements that we made right around Open Shift Dedicated and the upgrades around that. And things like, for example, supporting bring-your-own-cloud. So, if you got your own Amazon security credentials, we help support that. And manage that on your behalf, as well. We've talked this week about our support native, trying to introduce more server-less technologies into Open Shift. We announced the contribution of SCD to the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. So, continuing re-affirming our commitment to the community I think looking ahead, going forward, our focus next year will be on Open Shift four, which will be the next release of the platform. And there, it's all about how do we give you a much better install than upgrade experience than you've had before? How do we give you these clusters that you can deploy in multiple different environments and manage that better for you? How do we introduce operators to bring more and more automation to the platform? So, for the next few months our focus is on creating greater automation in the platform and then enabling more and more services to be able to run on that. >> Pretty exciting for you guys riding the wave, the cloud wave. Pretty dynamic. A lot of action. You've guys have had great success, congratulations. >> Thank you very much. >> You're fun to watch. The Cube coverage here. We're in Seattle for KubeCon 2018 and Cloud Native Con. I'm John your host. Stay with us for more coverage of day one of three days of coverage after this short break. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering DockerCon 2017 brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat tech music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is SiliconANGLE Media's The Cube. We're the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage. Happy to be coming to you from DockerCon 2017 here in the Austin Convention Center of course in Austin, Texas. My host for the next few days will be Jim Kobielus, Jim thank you so much for joining us. >> It's great to join the team. >> Alright, so we'll get to you in a second, Jim, but first of all, it is the fourth year of the DockerCon show Docker The Company, just celebrated its fourth year of existence, CEO Ben Golub started off the keynote Founder, CTO, Chief Product Guy, Solomon Heights, introduced a bunch of opensource initiatives, did a bunch of demos, the first DockerCon event back in 2014, I actually had the pleasure of attending, was my favorite show of that year, I got to hear some of these HyperScale guys talk about how they were using containers, how Google spins up and spins down two billion containers in a week and there were about 400 people there and Docker, the company, was 42 people. Fast forward to where we are today in 2017, Docker, the company, I believe is 320 people, there is over 5,500 people here, you can see 'em all streaming in behind me here as the Keynote just let out, so, we've got two full days here of coverage. This morning, we're going to go through a little bit of the news, talk about who we're going to cover, but first of all, I want to introduce you to Jim Kobielus, so John Furrier sends his regards to the community, he's real sorry he couldn't make it out, just had some things came up at the last minute, so he couldn't come, but stepping in for him with lots of knowledge and experience is Jim, so Jim, please, for our audience that hasn't gotten chance to see, you did some intro videos with our crew out in our 4,500 square foot Palo Alto studio at the beginning of the month, but why don't you tell 'em what brought you to the SiliconANGLE Media team, your background, and what you're going to be doing. >> Great, yeah, thanks Stu. Yeah, I've joined just recently in the last few weeks, I am Wikibon's lead analyst for application development as well as data science and deep learning. I create data science and the development of artificial intelligence as a huge and really one of the predominant developer themes now in the business world and really much of that that's going on in business in terms of development of the AI applications is in the form of microservices in containerized format for deployment out to multiclouds and increasingly serverless computing environments. So, I am totally pumped and excited to be at DockerCon and there were some great announcements this morning, I was very impressed that this community is making great progress, both on the sheer complexity and sophistication of the ecosystem, but on just the amount of support for Docker technology, for Kubernetes and so forth for the full range of technologies that enable containerized application development. Hot stuff. >> Yeah, Jim, and you talked about things like community and ecosystem and that was definitely the theme here day one. Docker did some changing in their packaging since we were at the show last year. They now have Docker CE which is the community edition. Focus on the developers and today was developer day. I'm pretty sure everything that was announced today is opensourced, it's in there, it's in the free version. I expect tomorrow we'll probably hear more about EE, it's the Enterprise Edition >> Enterprise, yes. >> A question I know we all have is how is the monetization of what Docker's doing progressing, the press and analyst dinner last night, I heard from a Docker employee and said look, we all understand, we are the early days of the monetization of Docker, but Solomon, this morning, said really, the success of Docker the company is tied directly to the ecosystem. We've got Microsoft coming on today, we've got Sysco, Oracle, lots of partners coming on this week talk about what Docker's doing, what's happened in opensource is going to help a broad ecosystem and all, not just the developers, but enterprises and the companies, so, what are you looking at this week, what are you hoping to come out of, what grabbed you from the Keynotes this morning? >> Well, grabbing from the Keynotes this morning is the maturation of the containerized Docker ecosystem in the form of greater portability, in terms of the LinuxKit announcement, we'll get to that later, as well as great customization capabilities to the Moby project. This is just milestones in the development and maturation of a truly robust ecosystem of innovation, really, what Docker's all about now that it's a real platforms company, is helping its partners to be raving successes in this rapidly expanding marketplace, so, that's what I see, the chief themes so far of this today. >> Yeah and it's interesting, one of the things we've always looked at Docker is like what does the opensource community do, what does the company do, what's the co-opetition play? Two years ago at the show in San Francisco, there was taking the container run time and really making sure that's opensource. You had the CoreOS guys and the Docker guys hugging. I got a picture of Ben Golub and Alex Polvi standing together and it was like oh, okay, that little cold war was over. LinuxKit is something we're going to look at, they lined up some really good partners. We got Intel, Microsoft, HPE, and IBM, but, we're going to talk to Red Hat and Canonical and see what they think about this because from the Linux guys, I've been hearing for the last couple of years, well, Linux really is containers. It's all just something that sits on top and containers, of course, is the Windows variant now, too, but you just buy your Linux and Containers comes with it and now, we say oh, we've got LinuxKit which is, I'm going to have a distribution that's fast, optimized, four containers that Docker and that ecosystem they're building's going to do. >> Same as everywhere, I mean Ben Golub laid it out maybe with Solomon this morning. Containers are really the predominant packaging of applications large and small across increasingly not just traditional enterprise and consumer applications but also the internet of things, so, but internet of things and the development of AI for the IOT is a huge theme that I'm focusing on in my coverage for Wikibon. I see a fair amount of enablers for that here. >> Great, and Jim, and absolutely, there was a big slide with Docker will be where you need to be, so, whether you're in the public cloud, of course, there's container services from, we've got Amazon ECS right here. You've got what's going on with Google and their containers. Microsoft Badger of course, so, there's so many pieces, so, a lot we're going to go through, we've got a full slate of interviews, of course, everybody can watch here at SiliconANGLE TV. If you want to participate in social conversation, John Furrier's actually been banging away, it's CrowdChat.net/DockerCon is where we're having some of the social conversations, of course, you can always reach out, I'm just @Stu on Twitter, Jim is @JamesKobielus which you'll see on the lower third when we put him up here is where he is on Twitter, if you're at the Expo Hall, you'll see the Expo Hall's behind us, we're just in the corner of the Expo Hall, going to be here for two days. Jim, I want to give you the final word on our intro here, come to the end of the day, what do you hope to have walked away with? >> Well, I hope to walk away with a more rich and nuance understanding of this ecosystem and the differentiators among the dozen upon dozens of companies here. Partners of Docker. Really what I see is a huge growth of the Kubernetes segment in terms of orchestration, scaling, of cluster management for all things to do with, not just Docker, but really Container D, which, of course, Docker recently opensourced, it's core container engine. I think this is totally exciting to see just the vast range of specialty vendors in the area providing tools to help you harden your containerized microservices environment for your CloudNative computing environments, that's what I hope to take away. I'm going to walk these halls when I'm not physically on The Cube and talk to these vendors here, exciting stuff, innovation. >> Yeah, absolutely, and you gave us so many pieces there, Jim. You mentioned Kubernetes, of course. There is that little bit of do I use Dockers Forum or do I use Kubernetes? Docker, of course, would like you to use Forum, that's what they're >> And in fact, that was an excellent discussion this morning about swarms advantages as well. I don't want to make it sound like I'm totally shifting towards Kubernetes in terms of my preferences. I mean, clearly, it's a highly innovative and dynamic space, so, Docker is making some serious investments and beefing up their entire enterprise stack including Swarm. >> Where I wanted to go, actually, with that is the Moby project actually is one of those things I saw as a nice maturation of what we hear from Docker. For the first couple of years, Docker said batteries are included but swapable, which means things like Swarm are going to make it in there, but you could use an alternative, so you want to use Kubernetes, go ahead and that's fine and Moby has allowed them to take all the components that are opensource. People inside Docker can work on them, people outside can collaborate them, much more modular. Reminds me of how when we talk about how development teams work, it's those two pizza teams, Docker has them internal, they're pulling more people in, how is that opensource collaboration going to expand? Scalability, I think, is the word that I heard over and over again in the Keynote. Scaling of the company, scaling of the products, scaling of the ecosystem, so something more interesting, say, we've been scaling our operations and we got two full days here of coverage so make sure to stay with The Cube for everything we've got here and thank you for watching The Cube. (upbeat tech music)