>>Good morning and welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here on set of the cube, my co-host John Farer. How you doing this morning, John? >>Doing great. Feeling fresh. Day two of three days of coverage, feeling >>Fresh. That is that for being in the heat of the conference. I love that attitude. It's gonna >>Be a great day today. We'll see you at the end of the day. Yeah, >>Well, we'll hold him to it. All right, everyone hold 'em accountable. Very excited to start the day off with an internet, a legend as well as a cube og. We are joined this morning by Matt Klein. Matt, welcome to the show. >>Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Yep. >>It's so, what's the vibe? Day two, Everyone's buzzing. What's got you excited at the show? You've been here before, but it's been three years you >>Mentioned. I, I was saying it's been three years since I've been to a conference, so it's been interesting for me to see what is, what is the same and what is different pre and post covid. But just really great to see everyone here again and nice to not be sitting in my home by myself. >>You know, Savannah said you're an OG and we were referring before we came on camera that you were your first came on the Cub in 2017, second Cuban event. But you were, I think, on the first wave of what I call the contributor momentum, where CNCF really got the traction. Yeah. You were at Lift, Envoy was contributed and that was really hyped up and I remember that vividly. It was day zero they called it back then. Yeah. And you got so much traction. People are totally into it. Yeah. Now we've got a lot of that going on now. Right. A lot of, lot of day Zero events. They call 'em co, co-located events. You got web assembly, a lot of other hype out there. What do you see out there that you like? How would you look at some of these other Sure. Communities that are developing, What's the landscape look like as you look out? Because Envoy set the table, what is now a standard >>Practice. Yeah. What's been so interesting for me just to come here to the conference is, you know, we open source Envoy in 2016. We donated in 2017. And as you mentioned at that time, Envoy was, you know, everyone wanted to talk about Envoy. And you know, much to my amazement, Envoy is now pervasive. I mean, it's used everywhere around the world. It's like, never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that it would be so widely used. And it's almost gotten to the point where it's become boring. You know, It's just assumed that Envoy is, is everywhere. And now we're hearing a lot about Eeb p f and Web assembly and GI ops and you know, AI and a bunch of other things. So it's, it's actually great. It's made me very happy that it's become so pervasive, but it's also fun. Yeah. We mention to, to look around all other stuff >>Like congratulate. It's just a huge accomplishment really. I think it's gonna be historic, historical moment for the industry too. But I like how it progressed. I mean, I don't mind hype cycles as long as it's some vetting. Sure. Of course. You know, use cases that are clearly defined, but you gotta get that momentum in the community, but then you start gotta get down to, to business. Yep. So, so to speak and get it deployed, get traction. Yep. What should projects look like? And, and give us the update on Envoy. Cause you guys have a, a great use case of how you got traction. Right. Take us through some of the early days of what made Envoy successful in your opinion. Great question. >>Yeah. You know, I, I think Envoy is fairly unique around this conference in the sense that Envoy was developed by Lyft, which is an end user company. And many of the projects in this ecosystem, you know, no judgment, for better or worse, they are vendor backed. And I think that's a different delivery mechanism when it's coming from an end user where you're solving a, a particular business case. So Envoy was really developed for Lyft in a, you know, very early scaling days and just, you know, trying to help Lyft solve its business problems. So I think when Envoy was developed, we were, you know, scaling, we were falling over and actually many other companies were having similar problems. So I think Envoy became very widely deployed because many companies were having similar issues. So Envoy just became pervasive among lift peer companies. And then we saw a lot of vendor uptake in the service mesh space in the API gateway space among large internet providers. So, I I I, I think it's just, it's an interesting case because I think when you're solving real problems on the ground, in some ways it's easier to actually get adoption than if you're trying to develop it from a commercial backing. >>And that's the class, I mean, almost, It's almost like open source product market fit. It is in its own way. Cause you have a problem. Absolutely. Other people have the same problem finding >>Too. I mean, it's, it's designed thinking from >>A different, When, when I talk to people about open source, I like to tell people that I do not think it's any different than starting a company. I actually think it's all the same problems finding pro product, market fit, hiring, like finding contributors and maintainers, like doing PR and marketing. Yeah. Getting team together, traction, getting, getting funding. I mean, you have to have money to do all these things. Yeah. So I think a lot of people think of open source as I, I don't know, you know, this fantastic collaborative effort and, and it is that, but there's a lot more to it. Yeah. And it is much more akin to starting a >>Company. Let's, let's just look at that for a second. Cause I think that's a good point. And I was having a conversation in the hallway two nights ago on this exact point. If the power dynamics of a startup in the open source, as you point out, is just different, it's community based. So there are things you just gotta be mindful of. It's not top down. >>Exactly. It's not like, >>Right. You know, go take that hill. It's really consensus based, but it is a startup. All those elements are in place. Absolutely. You need leadership, you gotta have debates, alignment, commit, You gotta commit to a vision. Yep. You gotta make adjustments. Build the trajectory. So based on that, I mean, do you see more end user traction? Cause I was, we were talking also about Intuit, they donated some of their tow code R goes out there. Yep. R go see the CDR goes a service. Where's the end user contributions to these days? Do you feel like it's good, still healthy? >>I, I mean, I, I'm, I'm biased. I would like to see more. I think backstage outta Spotify is absolutely fantastic. That's an area just in terms of developer portals and developer efficiency that I think has been very underserved. So seeing Backstage come outta Spotify where they've used it for years, and I think we've already seen they had a huge date, you know, day one event. And I, I think we're gonna see a lot more out of that >>Coming from, I'm an end user, pretend I'm an end user, so pretend I have some code. I want to, Oh man, I'm scared. I don't am I'm gonna lose my competitive edge. What's the, how do you talk to the enterprise out there that might be thinking about putting their project out there for whether it's the benefit of the community, developing talent, developing the product? >>Sure. Yeah. I would say that I, I would ask everyone to think through all of the pros and cons of doing that because it's not for free. I mean, doing open source is costly. It takes developer time, you know, it takes management time, it takes budgeting dollars. But the benefits if successful can be huge, right? I mean, it can be just in terms of, you know, getting people into your company, getting users, getting more features, all of that. So I would always encourage everyone to take a very pragmatic and realistic view of, of what is required to make that happen. >>What was that decision like at Lyft >>When you I I'm gonna be honest, it was very naive. I I think we've, of that we think we need to know. No, just didn't know. Yeah. I think a lot of us, myself included, had very minimal open source experience. And had we known, or had I known what would've happened, I, I still would've done it. But I, I'm gonna be honest, the last seven years have aged me what I feel like is like 70 or a hundred. It's been a >>But you say you look out in the landscape, you gotta take pride, look at what's happened. Oh, it's, I mean, it's like you said, it >>Matured fantastic. I would not trade it for anything, but it has, it has been a journey. What >>Was the biggest surprise? What was the most eye opening thing about the journey for you? >>I, I think actually just the recognition of all of the non-technical things that go into making these things a success. I think at a conference like this, people think a lot about technology. It is a technology conference, but open source is business. It really is. I mean, it, it takes money to keep it going. It takes people to keep >>It going. You gotta sell people on the concepts. >>It takes leadership to keep it going. It takes internal, it takes marketing. Yeah. So for me, what was most eyeopening is over the last five to seven years, I feel like I actually have not developed very many, if any technical skills. But my general leadership skills, you know, that would be applicable again, to running a business have applied so well to, to >>Growing off, Hey, you put it out there, you hear driving the ship. It's good to do that. They need that. It really needs it. And the results speak for itself and congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. What's the update on the project? Give us an update because you're seeing, seeing a lot of infrastructure people having the same problem. Sure. But it's also, the environments are a little bit different. Some people have different architectures. Absolutely different, more cloud, less cloud edges exploding. Yeah. Where does Envoy fit into the landscape they've seen and what's the updates? You've got some new things going on. Give the updates on what's going on with the project Sure. And then how it sits in the ecosystem vis-a-vis what people may use it for. >>Yeah. So I'm, from a core project perspective, honestly, things have matured. Things have stabilized a bit. So a lot of what we focus on now are less Big bang features, but more table stakes. We spend a lot of time on security. We spend a lot of time on software supply chain. A topic that you're probably hearing a lot about at this conference. We have a lot of software supply chain issues. We have shipped Quicken HTB three over the last year. That's generally available. That's a new internet protocol still work happening on web assembly where ha doing a lot of work on our build and release pipeline. Again, you would think that's boring. Yeah. But a lot of people want, you know, packages for their fedora or their ADU or their Docker images. And that takes a lot of effort. So a lot of what we're doing now is more table stakes, just realizing that the project is used around the world very widely. >>Yeah. The thing that I'm most interested in is, we announced in the last six months a project called Envoy Gateway, which is layered on top of Envoy. And the goal of Envoy Gateway is to make it easier for people to run Envoy within Kubernetes. So essentially as an, as an ingress controller. And Envoy is a project historically, it is a very sophisticated piece of software, very complicated piece of software. It's not for everyone. And we want to provide Envoy Gateway as a way of onboarding more users into the Envoy ecosystem and making Envoy the, the default API gateway or edge proxy within Kubernetes. But in terms of use cases, we see Envoy pervasively with service mesh, API gateway, other types of low balancing cases. I mean, honestly, it's, it's all over the place at >>This point. I'm curious because you mentioned it's expanded beyond your wildest dreams. Yeah. And how could you have even imagined what Envoy was gonna do? Is there a use case or an application that really surprised you? >>You know, I've been asked that before and I, it's hard for me to answer that. It's, it's more that, I mean, for example, Envoy is used by basically every major internet company in China. I mean, like, wow. Everyone in China uses Envoy, like TikTok, like Alibaba. I mean like everyone, all >>The large sale, >>Everyone. You know, and it's used, it's used in the, I'm just, it's not just even the us. So I, I think the thing that has surprised me more than individual use cases is just the, the worldwide adoption. You know, that something could be be everywhere. And that I think, you know, when I open my phone and I'm opening all of these apps on my phone, 80 or 90% of them are going through Envoy in some form. Yeah. You know, it's, it's just that pervasive, I blow your mind a little bit sometimes >>That does, that's why you say plumber on your Twitter handle as your title. Cause you're working on all these things that are like really important substrate issues, Right. For scale, stability, growth. >>And, you know, to, I, I guess the only thing that I would add is, my goal for Envoy has always been that it is that boring, transparent piece of technology. Kind of similar to Linux. Linux is everywhere. Right? But no one really knows that they're using Linux. It's, it's justs like Intel inside, we're not paying attention. It's just there, there's >>A core group working on, if they have pride, they understand the mission, the importance of it, and they make their job is to make it invisible. >>Right. Exactly. >>And that's really ease of use. What's some of the ease of use sways and, and simplicity that you're working on, if you can talk about that. Because to be boring, you gotta be simpler and easier. All boring complex is unique is not boring. Complex is stressful. No, >>I I think we approach it in a couple different ways. One of them is that because we view Envoy as a, as a base technology in the ecosystem, we're starting to see, you know, not only vendors, but other open source projects that are being built on top of Envoy. So things like API Gateway, sorry, Envoy Gateway or you know, projects like Istio or all the other projects that are out there. They use Envoy as a component, but in some sense Envoy is a, as a transparent piece of that system. Yeah. So I'm a big believer in the ecosystem that we need to continue to make cloud native easier for, for end users. I still think it's too complicated. And so I think we're there, we're, we're pushing up the stack a bit. >>Yeah. And that brings up a good point. When you start seeing people building on top of things, right? That's enabling. So as you look at the enablement of Envoy, what are some of the things you see out on the horizon if you got the 20 mile stare out as you check these boring boxes, make it more plumbing, Right? Stable. You'll have a disruptive enabling platform. Yeah. What do you see out there? >>I am, you know, I, again, I'm not a big buzzword person, but, so some people call it serverless functions as a service, whatever. I'm a big believer in platforms in the sense that I really believe in the next 10 to 15 years, developers, they want to provide code. You know, they want to call APIs, they want to use pub subsystems, they want to use cas and databases. And honestly, they don't care about container scheduling or networking or load balancing or any of >>These things. It's handled in the os >>They just want it to be part of the operating system. Yeah, exactly. So I, I really believe that whether it's an open source or in cloud provider, you know, package solutions, that we're going to be just moving increasingly towards systems likes Lambda and Fargate and Google Cloud Run and Azure functions and all those kinds of things. And I think that when you do that much of the functionality that has historically powered this conference like Kubernetes and Onvoy, these become critical but transparent components that people don't, they're not really aware of >>At that point. Yeah. And I think that's a great call out because one of the things we're seeing is the market forces of, of this evolution, what you just said is what has to happen Yep. For digital transformation to, to get to its conclusion. Yep. Which means that everything doesn't have to serve the business, it is the business. Right. You know it in the old days. Yep. Engineers, they serve the business. Like what does that even mean? Yep. Now, right. Developers are the business, so they need that coding environment. So for your statement to happen, that simplicity in visibility calling is invisible os has to happen. So it brings up the question in open source, the trend is things always work itself out on the wash, as we say. So when you start having these debates and the alignment has to come at some point, you can't get to those that stay without some sort of defacto or consensus. Yep. And even standards, I'm not a big be around hardcore standards, but we can all agree and have consensus Sure. That will align behind, say Kubernetes, It's Kubernetes a standard. It's not like an i e you know, but this next, what, what's your reaction to this? Because this alignment has to come after debate. So all the process contending for I am the this of that. >>Yeah. I'm a look, I mean, I totally see the value in like i e e standards and, and there's a place for that. At the same time, for me personally as a technologist, as an engineer, I prefer to let the, the market as it were sort out what are the defacto standards. So for example, at least with Envoy, Envoy has an API that we call Xds. Xds is now used beyond Envoy. It's used by gc, it's used by proprietary systems. And I'm a big believer that actually Envoy in its form is probably gonna go away before Xds goes away. So in some ways Xds has become a defacto standard. It's not an i e e standard. Yeah. We, we, we have been asked about whether we should do that. Yeah. But I just, I I think the >>It becomes a component. >>It becomes a component. Yeah. And then I think people gravitate towards these things that become de facto standards. And I guess I would rather let the people on the show floor decide what are the standards than have, you know, 10 people sitting in a room figure out >>The community define standards versus organizational institutional defined standards. >>And they both have places a >>Hundred percent. Yeah, sure. And, and there's social proof in both of them. Yep. >>Frankly, >>And we were saying on the cube that we believe that the developers will decide the standard. Sure. Because that's what you're basically saying. They're deciding what they do with their code. Right. And over time, as people realize the trade of, hey, if everyone's coding this right. And makes my life easier to get to that state of nirvana and enlightenment, as we would say. Yeah. Yeah. >>Starting strong this morning. John, I I love this. I'm curious, you mentioned Backstage by Spotify wonderful example. Do you think that this is a trend we're gonna see with more end users >>Creating open source projects? Like I, you know, I hope so. The flip side of that, and as we all know, we're entering an uncertain economic time and it can be hard to justify the effort that it takes to do it well. And what I typically counsel people when they are about to open source something is don't do it unless you're ready to commit the resources. Because opensourcing something and not supporting it. Yeah. I actually can be think, I think it'd be worse. >>It's an, it's insult that people, you're asking to commit to something. Exactly. Needs of time, need the money investment, you gotta go all in and push. >>So I, so I very much want to see it and, and I want to encourage that here, but it's hard for me to look into the crystal ball and know, you know, whether it's gonna happen more >>Or less at what point there were, are there too many projects? You know, I mean, but I'm not, I mean this in, in a, in a negative way. I mean it more in the way of, you know, you mentioned supply chain. We were riffing on the cube about at some point there's gonna be so much code open source continuing thundering away with, with the value that you're just gluing things. Right. I don't need the code, this code there. Okay. What's in the code? Okay. Maybe automation can help out on supply chain. Yeah. But ultimately composability is the new >>Right? It is. Yeah. And, and I think that's always going to be the case. Case. Good thing. It is good thing. And I, I think that's just, that's just the way of things for sure. >>So no code will be, >>I think, I think we're seeing a lot of no code situations that are working great for people. And, and, but this is actually really no different than my, than my serverless arguing from before. Just as a, as a, a slight digression. I'm building something new right now and you know, we're using cloud native technologies and all this stuff and it's still, >>What are you building? >>Even as a I'm, I'm gonna keep that, I'm gonna keep that secret. I know I'm, but >>We'll find out on Twitter. We're gonna find out now that we know it. Okay. Keep on mystery. You open that door. We're going down see in a couple weeks. >>Front >>Page is still an angle. >>But I, I was just gonna say that, you know, and I consider myself, you know, you're building something, I'm, I see myself an expert in the cloud native space. It's still difficult, It's difficult to, to pull together these technologies and I think that we will continue to make it easier for people. >>What's the biggest difficulties? Can you give us some examples? >>Well, just, I mean, we still live in a big mess of yammel, right? Is a, there's a, there's a lot of yaml out there. And I think just wrangling all of that in these systems, there's still a lot of cobbling together where I think that there can be unified platforms that make it easier for us to focus on our application logic. >>Yeah. I gotta ask you a question cuz I've talked to college kids all the time. My son's a junior in CS and he's, you know, he's coding away. What would you, how does a student or someone who's learning figure out where, who they are? Because there's now, you know, you're either into the infrastructure under the hood Yeah. Or you're, cuz that's coding there option now coding the way your infrastructure people are working on say the boring stuff so everyone else can have ease of use. And then what is just, I wanna just code, there's two types of personas. How does someone know who they are? >>My, when I give people career advice, my biggest piece of advice to them is in the first five to seven to 10 years of their career, I encourage people to do different things like every say one to two to three years. And that doesn't mean like quitting companies and changing companies, it could mean, you know, within a company that they join doing different teams, you know, working on front end versus back end. Because honestly I think people don't know. I think it's actually very, Yeah. Our industry is so broad. Yeah. That I think it's almost impossible to >>Know. You gotta get your hands dirty to jump >>In order to know what you like. And for me, in my career, you know, I've dabbled in different areas, but I've always come back to infrastructure, you know, that that's what I enjoy >>The most. Okay. You gotta, you gotta taste everything. See what you, what >>You like. Exactly. >>Right. Last question for you, Matt. It's been three years since you were here. Yep. What do you hope that we're able to say next year? That we can't say this year? Hmm. Beyond the secrets of your project, which hopefully we will definitely be discussing then. >>You know, I I, I don't have anything in particular. I would just say that I would like to see more movement towards projects that are synthesizing and making it easier to use a lot of the existing projects that we have today. So for example, I'm, I'm very bullish on backstage. Like I, I've, I've always said that we need better developer UIs that are not CLIs. Like I know it's a general perception among many people. Totally agree with you. Frankly, you're not a real systems engineer unless you type on the command line. I, I think better user interfaces are better for humans. Yep. So just for a project like Backstage to be more integrated with the rest of the projects, whether that be Envo or Kubernete or Argo or Flagger. I, I just, I think there's tremendous potential for further integration of some >>Of these projects. It just composability That makes total sense. Yep. Yep. You're, you're op you're operating and composing. >>Yep. And there's no reason that user experience can't be better. And then more people can create and build. So I think it's awesome. Matt, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, this has been fantastic. Be sure and check out Matt on Twitter to find out what that next secret project is. John, thank you for joining me this morning. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll be here all day live from the cube. We hope you'll be joining us throughout the evening until a happy hour today. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Thanks for watching.

(calm electronic music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage here live in New York City for AWS Summit 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, but a great conversation here as the day winds down. First of all, 10,000 plus people, this is a big event, just New York City. So sign of the times that some headwinds are happening? I don't think so, not in the cloud enterprise innovation game. Lot going on, this innovation conversation we're going to have now is about the confluence of cloud scale integration data and the future of how FinTech and other markets are going to change with technology. We got Chris Thomas, the CTO of Slalom, and Rob Krugman, chief digital officer at Broadridge. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks for having us. >> So we had a talk before we came on camera about your firm, what you guys do, take a quick minute to just give the scope and size of your firm and what you guys work on. >> Yeah, so Broadridge is a global financial FinTech company. We work on, part of our business is capital markets and wealth, and that's about a third of our business, about $7 trillion a day clearing through our platforms. And then the other side of our business is communications where we help all different types of organizations communicate with their shareholders, communicate with their customers across a variety of different digital channels and capabilities. >> Yeah, and Slalom, give a quick one minute on Slalom. I know you guys, but for the folks that don't know you. >> Yeah, no problem. So Slalom is a modern consulting firm focused on strategy, technology, and business transformation. And me personally, I'm part of the element lab, which is focused on forward thinking technology and disruptive technology in the next five to 10 years. >> Awesome, and that's the scope of this conversation. The next five to 10 years, you guys are working on a project together, you're kind of customer partners. You're building something. What are you guys working on? I can't wait to jump into it, explain. >> Sure, so similar to Chris, at Broadridge, we've created innovation capability, innovation incubation capability, and one of the first areas we're experimenting in is digital assets. So what we're looking to do is we're looking at a variety of different areas where we think consolidation network effects that we could bring can add a significant amount of value. And so the area we're working on is this concept of a wallet of wallets. How do we actually consolidate assets that are held across a variety of different wallets, maybe traditional locations- >> Digital wallets. >> Digital wallets, but maybe even traditional accounts, bring that together and then give control back to the consumer of who they want to share that information with, how they want their transactions to be able to control. So the idea of, people talk about Web 3 being the internet of value. I often think about it as the internet of control. How do you return control back to the individual so that they can make decisions about how and who has access to their information and assets? >> It's interesting, I totally like the value angle, but your point is what's the chicken and the egg here, the cart before the horse, you can look at it both ways and say, okay, control is going to drive the value. This is an interesting nuance, right? >> Yes, absolutely. >> So in this architectural world, they thought about the data plane and the control plane. Everyone's trying to go old school, middleware thinking. Let's own the data plane, we'll win everything. Not going to happen if it goes decentralized, right, Chris? >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're building a decentralized application, but it really is built on top of AWS. We have a serverless architecture that scales as our business scales built on top of things like S3, Lambda, DynamoDB, and of course using those security principles like Cognito and AWS Gateway, API Gateway. So we're really building an architecture of Web 3 on top of the Web 2 basics in the cloud. >> I mean, all evolutions are abstractions on top of each other, IG, DNS, Key, it goes the whole nine yards. In digital, at least, that's the way. Question about serverless real quick. I saw that Redshift just launched general availability of serverless in Redshift? >> Yes. >> You're starting to see the serverless now part of almost all the services in AWS. Is that enabling that abstraction, because most people don't see it that way. They go, oh, well, Amazon's not Web 3. They got databases, you could use that stuff. So how do you connect the dots and cross the bridge to the future with the idea that I might not think Web 2 or cloud is Web 3? >> I'll jump in quick. I mean, I think it's the decentralize. If you think about decentralization. serverless and decentralization, you could argue are the same way of, they're saying the same thing in different ways. One is thinking about it from a technology perspective. One is thinking about it from an ecosystem perspective and how things come together. You need serverless components that can talk to each other and communicate with each other to actually really reach the promise of what Web 3 is supposed to be. >> So digital bits or digital assets, I call it digital bits, 'cause I think zero ones. If you digitize everything and everything has value or now control drives the value. I could be a soccer team. I have apparel, I have value in my logos, I have photos, I have CUBE videos. I mean some say that this should be an NFT. Yeah, right, maybe, but digital assets have to be protected, but owned. So ownership drives it too, right? >> Absolutely. >> So how does that fit in, how do you explain that? 'Cause I'm trying to tie the dots here, connect the dots and tie it together. What do I get if I go down this road that you guys are building? >> So I think one of the challenges of digital assets right now is that it's a closed community. And I think the people that play in it, they're really into it. And so you look at things like NFTs and you look at some of the other activities that are happening and there are certain naysayers that look at it and say, this stuff is not based upon value. It's a bunch of artwork, it can't be worth this. Well, how about we do a time out there and we actually look at the underlying technology that's supporting this, the blockchain, and the potential ramifications of that across the entire financial ecosystem, and frankly, all different types of ecosystems of having this immutable record, where information gets stored and gets sent and the ability to go back to it at all times, that's where the real power is. So I think we're starting to see. We've hit a bit of a hiccup, if you will, in the cryptocurrencies. They're going to continue to be there. They won't all be there. A lot of them will probably disappear, but they'll be a finite number. >> What percentage of stuff do you think is vapor BS? If you had to pick an order of magnitude number. >> (laughs) I would say at least 75% of it. (John laughs) >> I mean, there's quite a few projects that are failing right now, but it's interesting in that in the crypto markets, they're failing gracefully. Because it's on the blockchain and it's all very transparent. Things are checked, you know immediately which companies are insolvent and which opportunities are still working. So it's very, very interesting in my opinion. >> Well, and I think the ones that don't have valid premises are the ones that are failing. Like Terra and some of these other ones, if you actually really looked at it, the entire industry knew these things were no good. But then you look at stable coins. And you look at what's going on with CBDCs. These are backed by real underlying assets that people can be comfortable with. And there's not a question of, is this going to happen? The question is, how quickly is it going to happen and how quickly are we going to be using digital currencies? >> It's interesting, we always talk about software, software as money now, money is software and gold and oil's moving over to that crypto. How do you guys see software? 'Cause we were just arguing in the queue, Dave Vellante and I, before you guys came on that the software industry pretty much does not exist anymore, it's open source. So everything's open source as an industry, but the value is integration, innovation. So it's not just software, it's the free. So you got to, it's integration. So how do you guys see this software driving crypto? Because it is software defined money at the end of the day. It's a token. >> No, I think that's absolutely one of the strengths of the crypto markets and the Web 3 market is it's governed by software. And because of that, you can build a trust framework. Everybody knows it's on the public blockchain. Everybody's aware of the software that's driving the rules and the rules of engagement in this blockchain. And it creates that trust network that says, hey, I can transact with you even though I don't know anything about you and I don't need a middleman to tell me I can trust you. Because this software drives that trust framework. >> Lot of disruption, lot of companies go out of business as a middleman in these markets. >> Listen, the intermediaries either have to disrupt themselves or they will be disrupted. I think that's what we're going to learn here. And it's going to start in financial services, but it's going to go to a lot of different places. I think the interesting thing that's happening now is for the first time, you're starting to see the regulators start to get involved. Which is actually a really good thing for the market. Because to Chris's point, transparency is here, how do you actually present that transparency and that trust back to consumers so they feel comfortable once that problem is solved. And I think everyone in the industry welcomes it. All of a sudden you have this ecosystem that people can play in, they can build and they can start to actually create real value. >> Every structural change that I've been involved in my 30 plus year career has been around inflection points. There was always some sort of underbelly. So I'm not going to judge crypto. It's been in the market for a while, but it's a good sign there's innovation happening. So as now, clarity comes into what's real. I think you guys are talking a conversation I think is refreshing because you're saying, okay, cloud is real, Lambda, serverless, all these tools. So Web 3 is certainly real because it's a future architecture, but it's attracting the young, it's a cultural shift. And it's also cooler than boring Web 2 and cloud. So I think the cultural shift, the fact that it's got data involved, there's some disruption around middleman and intermediaries, makes it very attractive to tech geeks. You look at, I read a stat, I heard a stat from a friend in the Bay Area that 30% of Cal computer science students are dropping out and jumping into crypto. So it's attracting the technical nerds, alpha geeks. It's a cultural revolution and there's some cool stuff going on from a business model standpoint. >> There's one thing missing. The thing that's missing, it's what we're trying to work on, I think is experience. I think if you're being honest about the entire marketplace, what you would agree is that this stuff is not easy to use today, and that's got to be satisfied. You need to do something that if it's the 85 year old grandma that wants to actually participate in these markets that not only can they feel comfortable, but they actually know how to do it. You can't use these crazy tools where you use these terms. And I think the industry, as it grows up, will satisfy a lot of those issues. >> And I think this is why I want to tie back and get your reaction to this. I think that's why you guys talking about building on top of AWS is refreshing, 'cause it's not dogmatic. Well, we can't use Amazon, it's not really Web 3. Well, a database could be used when you need it. You don't need to write everything through the blockchain. Databases are a very valuable capability, you get serverless. So all these things now can work together. So what do you guys see for companies that want to be Web 3 for all the good reasons and how do they leverage cloud specifically to get there? What are some things that you guys have learned that you can point to and share, you want to start? >> Well, I think not everything has to be open and public to everybody. You're going to want to have some things that are secret. You're going to want to encrypt some things. You're going to want to put some things within your own walls. And that's where AWS really excels. I think you can have the best of both worlds. So that's my perspective on it. >> The only thing I would add to it, so my view is it's 2022. I actually was joking earlier. I think I was at the first re:Invent. And I remember walking in and this was a new industry. >> It was tiny. >> This is foundational. Like cloud is not a, I don't view like, we shouldn't be having that conversation anymore. Of course you should build this stuff on top of the cloud. Of course you should build it on top of AWS. It just makes sense. And we should, instead of worrying about those challenges, what we should be worrying about are how do we make these applications easier to use? How do we actually- >> Energy efficient. >> How do we enable the promise of what these things are going to bring, and actually make it real, because if it happens, think about traditional assets. There's projects going on globally that are looking at how do you take equity securities and actually move them to the blockchain. When that stuff happens, boom. >> And I like what you guys are doing, I saw the news out through this crypto winter, some major wallet exchanges that have been advertising are hurting. Take me through what you guys are thinking, what the vision is around the wallet of wallets. Is it to provide an experience for the user or the market industry itself? What's the target, is it both? Share the design goals for the wallet of wallets. >> My favorite thing about innovation and innovation labs is that we can experiment. So I'll go in saying we don't know what the final answer is going to be, but this is the premise that we have. In this disparate decentralized ecosystem, you need some mechanism to be able to control what's actually happening at the consumer level. So I think the key target is how do you create an experience where the consumer feels like they're in control of that value? How do they actually control the underlying assets? And then how does it actually get delivered to them? Is it something that comes from their bank, from their broker? Is it coming from an independent organization? How do they manage all of that information? And I think the last part of it are the assets. It's easy to think about cryptos and NFTs, but thinking about traditional assets, thinking about identity information and healthcare records, all of that stuff is going to become part of this ecosystem. And imagine being able to go someplace and saying, oh, you need my information. Well, I'm going to give it to you off my phone and I'm going to give it to you for the next 24 hours so you can use it, but after that you have no access to it. Or you're my financial advisor, here's a view of what I actually have, my underlying assets. What do you recommend I do? So I think we're going to see an evolution in the market. >> Like a data clean room. >> Yeah, but that you control. >> Yes! (laughs) >> Yes! >> I think about it very similarly as well. As my journey into the crypto market has gone through different pathways, different avenues. And I've come to a place where I'm really managing eight different wallets and it's difficult to figure exactly where all my assets are and having a tool like this will allow me to visualize and aggregate those assets and maybe even recombine them in unique ways, I think is hugely valuable. >> My biggest fear is losing my key. >> Well, and that's an experience problem that has to be solved, but let me give you, my favorite use case in this space is, 'cause NFTs, right? People are like, what does NFTs really mean? Title insurance, right? Anyone buy a house or refinance your mortgage? You go through this crazy process that costs seven or eight thousand dollars every single time you close on something to get title insurance so they could validate it. What if that title was actually sitting on the chain, you got an NFT that you put in your wallet and when it goes time to sell your house or to refinance, everything's there. Okay, I'm the owner of the house. I don't know, JP Morgan Chase has the actual mortgage. There's another lien, there's some taxes. >> It's like a link tree in the wallet. (laughs) >> Yeah, think about it, you got a smart contract. Boom, closing happens immediately. >> I think that's one of the most important things. I think people look at NFTs and they think, oh, this is art. And that's sort of how it started in the art and collectable space, but it's actually quickly moving towards utilities and tokenization and passes. And that's where I think the value is. >> And ownership and the token. >> Identity and ownership, especially. >> And the digital rights ownership and the economics behind it really have a lot of scale 'cause I appreciate the FinTech angle you are coming from because I can now see what's going on here with you. It's like, okay, we got to start somewhere. Let's start with the experience. The wallet's a tough nut to crack, 'cause that requires defacto participation in the industry as a defacto standard. So how are you guys doing there? Can you give an update and then how can people get, what's the project called and how do people get involved? >> Yeah, so we're still in the innovation, incubation stages. So we're not launching it yet. But what I will tell you is what a lot of our focus is, how do we make these transactional things that you do? How do we make it easy to pull all your assets together? How do we make it easy to move things from one location to the other location in ways that you're not using a weird cryptographic numeric value for your wallet, but you actually can use real nomenclature that you can renumber and it's easy to understand. Our expectation is that sometime in the fall, we'll actually be in a position to launch this. What we're going to do over the summer is we're going to start allowing people to play with it, get their feedback, and we're going to iterate. >> So sandbox in when, November? >> I think launch in the fall, sometime in the fall. >> Oh, this fall. >> But over the summer, what we're expecting is some type of friends and family type release where we can start to realize what people are doing and then fix the challenges, see if we're on the right track and make the appropriate corrections. >> So right now you guys are just together on this? >> Yep. >> The opening up friends and family or community is going to be controlled. >> It is, yeah. >> Yeah, as a group, I think one thing that's really important to highlight is that we're an innovation lab. We're working with Broadridge's innovation lab, that partnership across innovation labs has allowed us to move very, very quickly to build this. Actually, if you think about it, we were talking about this not too long ago and we're almost close to having an internal launch. So I think it's very rapid development. We follow a lot of the- >> There's buy-in across the board. >> Exactly, exactly, and we saw lot of very- >> So who's going to run this? A Dow, or your companies, is it going to be a separate company? >> So to be honest, we're not entirely sure yet. It's a new product that we're going to be creating. What we actually do with it. Our thought is within an innovation environment, there's three things you could do with something. You can make it a product within the existing infrastructure, you can create a new business unit or you can spin it off as something new. I do think this becomes a product within the organization based upon it's so aligned to what we do today, but we'll see. >> But you guys are financing it? >> Yes. >> As collective companies? >> Yeah, right. >> Got it, okay, cool. Well, let us know how we can help. If you guys want to do a remote in to theCUBE. I would love the mission you guys are on. I think this is the kind of work that every company should be doing in the new R and D. You got to jump in the deep end and swim as fast as possible. But I think you can do it. I think that is refreshing and that's smart. >> And you have to do it quick because this market, I think the one thing we would probably agree on is that it's moving faster than we could, every week there's something else that happens. >> Okay, so now you guys were at Consensus down in Austin when the winter hit and you've been in the business for a long time, you got to know the industries. You see where it's going. What was the big thing you guys learned, any scar tissue from the early data coming in from the collaboration? Was there some aha moments, was there some oh shoot moments? Oh, wow, I didn't think that was going to happen. Share some anecdotal stories from the experience. Good, bad, and if you want to be bold say ugly, too. >> Well, I think the first thing I want to say about the timing, it is the crypto winter, but I actually think now's a really great time to build something because everybody's continuing to build. Folks are focused on the future and that's what we are as well. In terms of some of the challenges, well, the Web 3 space is so new. And there's not a way to just go online and copy somebody else's work and rinse and repeat. We had to figure a lot of things on our own. We had to try different technologies, see which worked better and make sure that it was functioning the way we wanted it to function. Really, so it was not easy. >> They oversold that product out, that's good, like this team. >> But think about it, so the joke is that when winter is when real work happens. If you look at the companies that have not been affected by this it's the infrastructure companies and what it reminds me of, it's a little bit different, but 2001, we had the dot com bust. The entire industry blew up, but what came out of that? >> Everything that exists. >> Amazon, lots of companies grew up out of that environment. >> Everything that was promoted actually happened. >> Yes, but you know what didn't happen- >> Food delivery. >> But you know what's interesting that didn't happen- >> (laughs) Pet food, the soccer never happened. >> The whole Super Bowl, yes. (John laughs) In financial services we built on top of legacy. I think what Web 3 is doing, it's getting rid of that legacy infrastructure. And the banks are going to be involved. There's going to be new players and stuff. But what I'm seeing now is a doubling down of the infrastructure investment of saying okay, how do we actually make this stuff real so we can actually show the promise? >> One of the things I just shared, Rob, you'd appreciate this, is that the digital advertising market's changing because now banner ads and the old techniques are based on Web 2 infrastructure, basically DNS as we know it. And token problems are everywhere. Sites and silos are built because LinkedIn doesn't share information. And the sites want first party data. It's a hoarding exercise, so those practices are going to get decimated. So in comes token economics, that's going to get decimated. So you're already seeing the decline of media. And advertising, cookies are going away. >> I think it's going to change, it's going to be a flip, because I think right now you're not in control. Other people are in control. And I think with tokenomics and some of the other things that are going to happen, it gives back control to the individual. Think about it, right now you get advertising. Now you didn't say I wanted this advertising. Imagine the value of advertising when you say, you know what, I am interested in getting information about this particular type of product. The lead generation, the value of that advertising is significantly higher. >> Organic notifications. >> Yeah. >> Well, gentlemen, I'd love to follow up with you. I'm definitely going to ping in. Now I'm going to put CUBE coin back on the table. For our audience CUBE coin's coming. Really appreciate it, thanks for sharing your insights. Great conversation. >> Excellent, thank you for having us. >> Excellent, thank you so much. >> theCUBE's coverage here from New York City. I'm John Furrier, we'll be back with more live coverage to close out the day. Stay with us, we'll be right back. >> Excellent. (calm electronic music)

(upbeat music) >> From the Silicon Angle Media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCube. Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to the first interview of theCube in our Boston area studio for 2020. And to help me kick it off, Jeremy Daly who is the host of Serverless Chats as well as runs the Serverless Day Boston. Jeremy, saw you at reInvent, way back in 2019, and we'd actually had some of the people in the community that were like hey, "I think you guys like actually live and work right near each other." >> Right. >> And you're only about 20 minutes away from our office here, so thanks so much for making the long journey here, and not having to get on a plane to join us here. >> Well, thank you for having me. >> All right, so as Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes says, "It's a new decade, but we don't have any base on the moon, "we don't have flying cars that general people can use, "but we do have serverless." >> And our robot vacuum cleaners. >> We do have robot vacuum cleaners. >> Which are run by serverless, as a matter of fact. >> A CUBE alum on the program would be happy that we do get to mention there. So yeah, you know serverless there are things like the iRobot, as well as Alexa, or some of the things that people, you know usually when I'm explaining to people what this is, and they don't understand it, it's like, Oh, you've used Alexa, well those are the functions underneath, and you think about how these things turn on, and off, a little bit like that. But maybe, we don't need to get into the long ontological discussion or everything, but you know you're a serverless hero, so you know give us a little bit, what your hearing from people, what are some of the exciting use cases out there, and you know where serverless is being used in that maturity today. >> Yeah, I mean well, so the funny thing about serverless and the term serverless itself, and I do not want to get into a long discussion about this, obviously. I actually wrote a post last year that was called stop calling everything serverless, because basically people are calling everything serverless. So it really, what it, what I look at it as, is something where, it just makes it really easy for developers to abstract away that back end infrastructure, and not having to worry about setting up Kubernetes, or going through the process of setting up virtual machines and installing software is just, a lot of that stuff is kind of handled for you. And I think that is enabled, a lot of companies, especially start-ups is a huge market for serverless, but also enterprises. Enabled them to give more power to their developers, and be able to look at new products that they want to build, new services they want to tackle or even old services that they need to, you know that may have some stability issues or things like long running ETL tasks, and other things like that, that they found a way to sort of find the preferal edges of these monolithic applications or these mainframes that they are using and find ways to run very small jobs, you know using functions as a server, something like that. And so, I see a lot of that, I think that is a big use case. You see a lot of large companies doing. Obviously, people are building full fledged applications. So, yes, the web facing user application, certainly a thing. People are building API's, you got API Gateway, they just released the new HEDP API which makes it even faster. To run those sort of things, this idea of cold starts, you know in AWS trying to get rid of all that stuff, with the new VPC networking, and some of the things they are doing there. So you have a lot of those type of applications that people are building as well. But it really runs the gambit, there are things all across the board that you can do, and pretty much anything you can do with the traditional computing environment, you can do with a serverless computing environment. And obviously that's focusing quite a bit on the functions as a service side of things, which is a very tiny part of serverless, if you want to look at it, you know sort of the broader picture, this service full or managed services, type approach. And so, that's another thing that you see, where you used to have companies setting up you know, mySQL databases and clusters trying to run these things, or even worse, Cassandra rings, right. Trying to do these things and manage this massive amount of infrastructure, just so that they could write a few records to a database and read them back for their application. And that would take months sometimes, for them to get it setup and even more time to try to keep running them. So this sort of revolution of managed services and all these things we get now, whether that the things like managed elastic search or elastic search cloud doing that stuff for you, or Big Table and Dynamo DB, and Manage Cassandra, whatever those things are. I'm just thinking a lot easier for developers to just say hey, I need a database, and okay, here it is, and I don't have to worry about the infrastructure at all. So, I think you see a lot of people, and a lot of companies that are utilizing all of these different services now, and essentially are no longer trying to re-invent the wheel. >> So, a couple of years ago, I was talking to Andy Jassy, at an interview with theCube, and he said, "If I was to build AWS today, "I would've built it on serverless." And from what I've seen over the last two or three years or so, Amazon is rebuilding a lot of there servers underneath. It's very interesting to watch that platform changing. I think it's had some ripple effect dynamics inside the company 'cause Amazon is very well known for their two pizza teams and for all of their products are there, but I think it was actually in a conversation with you, we're talking about in some ways this new way of building things is, you know a connecting fabric between the various groups inside of Amazon. So, I love your view point that we shouldn't just call everything serverless, but in many ways, this is a revolution and a new way of thinking about building things and therefore, you know there are some organizational and dynamical changes that happen, for an Amazon, but for other people that start using it. >> Yeah, well I mean I actually was having a conversation with a Jay Anear, whose one of the product owners for Lambda, and he was saying to me, well how do we sell serverless. How do we tell people you know this is what the next way to do things. I said, just, it's the way, right. And Amazon is realized this, and part of the great thing about dog fooding your own product is that you say, okay I don't like the taste of this bit, so we're going to change it to make it work. And that's what Amazon has continued to do, so they run into limitations with serverless, just like us early adopters, run into limitations, and they say, we'll how do we make it better, how do we fix it. And they have always been really great to listening to customers. I complain all the time, there's other people that complain all the time, that say, "Hey, I can't do this." And they say, "Well what if we did it this way, and out of that you get things like Lambda Destinations and all different types of ways, you get Event Bridge, you get different ways that you can solve those problems and that comes out of them using their own services. So I think that's a huge piece of it, but that helps enable other teams to get past those barriers as well. >> Jeremy, I'm going to be really disappointed if in 2020, I don't see a T-shirt from one of the Serverless Days, with the Mandalorian on it, saying, "Serverless, this is the way." Great, great, great marketing opportunity, and I do love that, because some of the other spaces, you know we're not talking about a point product, or a simple thing we do, it is more the way of doing things, it's just like I think about Cybersecurity. Yes, there are lots of products involved here but, you know this is more of you know it's a methodology, it needs to be fully thought of across the board. You know, as to how you do things, so, let's dig in a little bit. At reInvent, there was, when I went to the serverless gathering, it was serverless for everyone. >> Serverless for everyone, yes. >> And there was you know, hey, serverless isn't getting talked, you know serverless isn't as front and center as some people might think. They're some people on the outside look at this and they say, "Oh, serverless, you know those people "they have a religion, and they go so deep on this." But I thought Tim Wagner had a really good blog post, that came out right after reInvent, and what we saw is not only Amazon changing underneath the way things are done, but it feel that there's a bridging between what's happening in Kubernetes, you see where Fargate is, Firecracker, and serverless and you know. Help us squint through that, and understand a little bit, what your seeing, what your take was at reInvent, what you like, what you were hoping to see and how does that whole containerization, and Kubernetes wave intersect with what we're doing with serverless? >> Yeah, well I mean for some reason people like Kubernetes. And I honestly, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, I think it's a great container orchestration system, I think containers are still a very important part of the workloads that we are putting into a cloud, I don't know if I would call them cloud native, exactly, but I think what we're seeing or at least what I'm seeing that I think Amazon is seeing, is they're saying people are embracing Kubernetes, and they are embracing containers. And whether or not containers are ephemeral or long running, which I read a statistic at some point, that was 63% of containers, so even running on Kubernetes, or whatever, run for less than 10 minutes. So basically, most computing that's happening now, is fairly ephemeral. And as you go up, I think it's 15 minutes or something like that, I think it's 70% or 90% or whatever that number is, I totally got that wrong. But I think what Amazon is doing is they're trying to basically say, look we were trying to sell serverless to everyone. We're trying to sell this idea of look managed services, managed compute, the idea that we can run even containers as close to the metal as possible with something like Fargate which is what Firecracker is all about, being able to run virtual machines basically, almost you know right on the metal, right. I mean it's so close that there's no level of abstraction that get in the way and slow things down, and even though we're talking about milliseconds or microseconds, it's still something and there's efficiencies there. But I think what they looked at is, they said look at we are not Apple, we can't kill Flash, just because we say we're not going to support it anymore, and I think you mention this to me in the past where the majority of Kubernetes clusters that were running in the Public Cloud, we're running in Amazon anyways. And so, you had using virtual machines, which are great technology, but are 15 years old at this point. Even containerization, there's more problems to solve there, getting to the point where we say, look you want to take this container, this little bit of code, or this small service and you want to just run this somewhere. Why are we spinning up virtual containers. Why are we using 15 or 10 year old technology to do that. And Amazon is just getting smarter about it. So Amazon says hay, if we can run a Lambda function on Firecracker, and we can run a Fargate container on Firecracker, why can't we run, you know can we create some pods and run some pods for Kubernetes on it. They can do that. And so, I think for me, I was disappointed in the keynotes, because I don't think there was enough serverless talk. But I think what they're trying to do, is there trying to and this is if I put my analyst hat on for a minute. I think they're trying to say, the world is at Kubernetes right now. And we need to embrace that in a way, that says we can run your Kubernetes for you, a lot more efficiently and without you having to worry about it than if you use Google or if you use some other cloud provider, or if you run on-prem. Which I think is the biggest competitor to Amazon is still on-prem, especially in the enterprise world. So I see them as saying, look we're going to focus on Kubernetes, but as a way that we can run it our way. And I think that's why, Fargate and Kubernetes, or the Kubernetes for Fargate, or whatever that new product is. Too many product names at AWS. But I think that's what they are trying to do and I think that was the point of this, is to say, "Listen you can run your Kubernetes." And Claire Legore who showed that piece at the keynote, Vernor's keynote that was you know basically how quickly Fargate can scale up Kubernetes, you know individual containers, Kubernetes, as opposed to you know launching new VM's or EC2 instances. So I thought that was really interesting. But that was my overall take is just that they're embracing that, because they think that's where the market is right now, and they just haven't yet been able to sell this idea of serverless even though you are probably using it with a bunch of things anyways, at least what they would consider serverless. >> Yeah, to part a little bit from the serverless for a second. Talk about multi-cloud, it was one of the biggest discussions, we had in 2019. When I talk to customers that are using Kubernetes, one of the reasons that they tell me they're doing it, "Well, I love Amazon, I really like what I'm doing, "but if I needed to move something, it makes it easier." Yes, there are some underlying services I would have to re-write, and I'm looking at all those. I've talked to customers that started with Kubernetes, somewhere other than Amazon, and moved it to Amazon, and they said it did make my life easier to be able to do that fundamental, you know the container piece was easy move that piece of it, but you know the discussion of multi-cloud gets very convoluted, very easily. Most customers run it when I talk to them, it's I have an application that I run, in a cloud, sometimes, there's certain, you know large financials will choose two of everything, because that's the way they've always done things for regulation. And therefore they might be running the same application, mirrored in two different clouds. But it is not follow the sun, it is not I wake up and I look at the price of things, and deploy it to that. And that environment it is a little bit tougher, there's data gravity, there's all these other concerns. But multi-cloud is just lots of pieces today, more than a comprehensive strategy. The vision that I saw, is if multi-cloud is to be a successful strategy, it should be more valuable than the sum of its pieces. And I don't see many examples of that yet. What do you see when it comes to multi-cloud and how does that serverless discussion fit in there? >> I think your point about data gravity is the most important thing. I mean honestly compute is commoditized, so whether your running it in a container, and that container runs in Fargate or orchestrated by Kubernetes, or runs on its own somewhere, or something's happening there, or it's a fast product and it's running on top of K-native or it's running in a Lambda function or in an Azure function or something like that. Compute itself is fairly commoditized, and yes there's wiring that's required for each individual cloud, but even if you were going to move your Kubernetes cluster, like you said, there's re-writes, you have to change the way you do things underneath. So I look at multi-cloud and I think for a large enterprise that has a massive amount of compliance, regulations and things like that they have to deal with, yeah maybe that's a strategy they have to embrace, and hopefully they have the money and tech staff to do that. I think the vast majority of companies are going to find that multi-cloud is going to be a completely wasteful and useless exercise that is essentially going to waste time and money. It's so hard right now, keeping up with everything new that comes out of one cloud right, try keeping up with everything that comes out of three clouds, or more. And I think that's something that doesn't make a lot of sense, and I don't think you're going to see this price gauging like we would see with something. Probably the wrong term to use, but something that we would see, sort of lock-in that you would see with Oracle or with Microsoft SQL, some of those things where the licensing became an issue. I don't think you're going to see that with cloud. And so, what I'm interested in though in terms of the term multi-cloud, is the fact that for me, multi-cloud really where it would be beneficial, or is beneficial is we're talking about SaaS vendors. And I look at it and I say, look it you know Oracle has it's own cloud, and Google has it's own cloud, and all these other companies have their own cloud, but so does Salesforce, when you think about it. So does Twilio, even though Twilio runs inside AWS, really its I'm using that service and the AWS piece of it is abstracted, that to me is a third party service. Stripe is a third-party service. These are multi-cloud structure or SaaS products that I'm using, and I'm going to be integrating with all those different things via API's like we've done for quite some time now. So, to me, this idea of multi-cloud is simply going to be, you know it's about interacting with other products, using the right service for the right job. And if your duplicating your compute or you're trying to write database services or something like that that you can somehow share with multiple clouds, again, I don't see there being a huge value, except for a very specific group of customers. >> Yeah, you mentioned the term cloud-native earlier, and you need to understand are you truly being cloud-native or are you kind of cloud adjacent, are you leveraging a couple of things, but you're really, you haven't taken advantage of the services and the promise of what these cloud options can offer. All right, Jeremy, 2020 we've turned the calendar. What are you looking at, you know you're planning, you got serverless conference, Serverless Days-- >> Serverless Days Boston. >> Boston, coming up-- >> April 6th in Cambridge. >> So give us a little views to kind of your view point for the year, the event itself, you got your podcast, you got a lot going on. >> Yeah, so my podcast, Serverless Chats. You know I talk to people that are in the space, and we usually get really really technical. So if you're a serverless geek or you like that kind of stuff definitely listen to that. But yeah, but 2020 for me though, this is where I see what is happened to serverless, and this goes back to my "Stop calling everything serverless" post, was this idea that we keep making serverless harder. And so, as a someone whose a serverless purist, I think at this point. I recognize and it frustrates me that it is so difficult now to even though we're abstracting away running that infrastructure, we still have to be very aware of what pieces of the infrastructure we are using. Still have setup the SQS Queue, still have to setup Event Bridge. We still have to setup the Lambda function and API gateways and there's services that make it easier for us, right like we can use a serverless framework, or the SAM framework, or ARCH code or architect framework. There's a bunch of these different ones that we can use. But the problem is that it's still very very tough, to understand how to stitch all this stuff together. So for me, what I think we're going to see in 2020, and I know there is hints for this serverless framework just launched their components. There's other companies that are doing similar things in the space, and that's basically creating, I guess what I would call an abstraction as a service, where essentially it's another layer of abstraction, on top of the DSL's like Terraform or Cloud Formation, and essentially what it's doing is it's saying, "I want to launch an API that does X-Y-Z." And that's the outcome that I want. Understanding all the best practices, am I supposed to use Lambda Destinations, do I use DLQ's, what should I throttle it at? All these different settings and configurations and knobs, even though they say that there's not a lot of knobs, there's a lot of knobs that you can turn. Encapsulating that and being able to share that so that other people can use it. That in and of itself would be very powerful, but where it becomes even more important and I think definitely from an enterprise standpoint, is to say, listen we have a team that is working on these serverless components or abstractions or whatever they are, and I want Team X to be able to use, I want them to be able to launch an API. Well you've got security concerns, you've got all kinds of things around compliance, you have what are the vetting process for third-party libraries, all that kind of stuff. If you could say to Team X, hey listen we've got this component, or this piece of, this abstracted piece of code for you, that you can take and now you can just launch an API, serverless API, and you don't have to worry about any of the regulations, you don't have to go to the attorneys, you don't have to do any of that stuff. That is going to be an extremely powerful vehicle for companies to adopt things quickly. So, I think that you have teams now that are experimenting with all of these little knobs. That gets very confusing, it gets very frustrating, I read articles all the time, that come out and I read through it, and this is all out of date, because things have changed so quickly and so if you have a way that your teams, you know and somebody who stays on top of the learning this can keep these things up to date, follow the most, you know leading practices or the best practices, whatever you want to call them. I think that's going to be hugely important step from making it to the teams that can adopt serverless more quickly. And I don't think the major cloud vendors are doing anything in this space. And I think SAM is a good idea, but basically SAM is just a re-write of the serverless framework. Whereas, I think that there's a couple of companies who are looking at it now, how do we take this, you know whatever, this 1500 line Cloud Formation template, how do we boil that down into two or three lines of configuration, and then a little bit of business logic. Because that's where we really want to get to. It's just we're writing business logic, we're no where near there right now. There's still a lot of stuff that has to be done, around configuration and so even though it's nice to say, hey we can just write some business logic and all the infrastructure is handled for us. The infrastructure is handled for us, if we configure it correctly. >> Yeah, really remind me some of the general thread we've been talking about, Cloud for a number of years is, remember back in the early days, is cloud is supposed to be inexpensive and easy to use, and of course in today's world, it isn't either of those things. So serverless needs to follow those threads, you know love some of those view points Jeremy. I want to give you the final word, you've got your Serverless Day Boston, you got your podcast, best way to get in touch with you, and keep up with all you're doing in 2020. >> Yeah, so @Jeremy_daly on Twitter. I'm pretty active on Twitter, and I put all my stuff out there. Serverless Chats podcast, you can just find, serverlesschats.com or any of the Pod catchers that you use. I also publish a newsletter that basically talks about what I'm talking about now, every week called Off by None, which is, collects a bunch of serverless links and gives them some IoPine on some of them, so you can go to offbynone.io and find that. My website is jeremydaly.com and I blog and keep up to date on all the kind of stuff that I do with serverless there. >> Jeremy, great content, thanks so much for joining us on theCube. Really glad and always love to shine a spotlight here in the Boston area too. >> Appreciate it. >> I'm Stu Miniman. You can find me on the Twitter's, I'm just @Stu thecube.net is of course where all our videos will be, we'll be at some of the events for 2020. Look for me, look for our co-hosts, reach out to us if there's an event that we should be at, and as always, thank you for watching theCube. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering the AWS Accenture Executive Summit. Brought to you by Accenture. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Executive Summit here at the Venetian in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. We have two guests for this segment, we have Adam Burden, Chief Software Engineer at Accenture and Chris Scott, AWS North America Lead. Thank you both so much for coming back on theCUBE for returning. >> Sure, thanks for having us. >> Awesome, thanks. >> So we're talking today about future systems. So, in the past, when Accenture has talked about this, it's talked about the future of applications, future applications, now it's future systems. What are we talking about first of all? >> Sure. >> And why the switch? >> Look, it's actually a key question for us, and I think that we aspire to be to our clients thought leaders about where we believe that the technology landscape of tomorrow is heading. To help give them guidance about the path that they should chart their own systems on today. And we wrote kind of a seminal paper several years ago, called The Future of Applications, and it laid out different strategies that our clients, we recommended to our clients that they follow in order to build the technology systems of tomorrow. And in it, we have three characteristics, liquid, intelligent, and connected. And the outcome from that was great. It was an inspiration for many of them to build their future technology landscape and that language of liquid, intelligent, connected from a white paper was written five years ago has really entered the lexicon of many of our clients in industry. Now, however, they've seen the success, but they want to be able to do that truly at scale. They want to be able to take advantage of applications and the way that they're built and designed for tomorrow, but do that at an enterprise wide scale. And we felt like it was a time for us to go back and reflect upon what we had wrote about as the future of applications, and said, let's think about how systems, three years on, four years on, are going to be built for tomorrow. And that's exactly what we did in future systems. So future systems, you can look at it as a compass for how they'll continue to chart their path to be able to scale the new and close something that we call the innovation achievement gap. And this innovation achievement gap is really kind of the diagnosis that we put on there of where, they've seen success in pockets of innovation across their enterprise, but they want to be able to have that occurring across all of their businesses simultaneously. And we believe that following some of the prescriptive advice that we provide in future systems, that clients, our clients, would be able to do exactly that. >> So I want to dig into that research a little bit and you said, liquid, intelligent, connected. Those really became part of the vernacular. This year, it's three new-- >> Three new ones that's right! >> Three new ones, boundaryless, adaptable, and radically human. These are the characteristics that you say are the secret sauce for a successful system. >> That's right. >> So, let's get into these a little bit, let's start with boundaryless. >> Sure, boundaryless is great to talk here about, reinvent, because it really is all about cloud and how you use cloud. But before I get ahead of myself, and really define about what boundaryless is. Naturally, it's about breaking down barriers between systems, between businesses, and between humans and machines. And the successful companies that do this can really quickly respond to the market 'cause their systems are very agile and can react. There are really two really important elements to boundaryless, first is cloud. Being able to leverage cloud not just as a data center, but as an innovation platform to be able to do more, leveraging the great services from AWS, like Lambda and API Gateway and across the entire stack of AWS services and leveraging automation and really getting beyond infrastructure, to treating it infrastructure as code with an environment is an important component of that. The second is decoupling. It's decoupling applications and data. For years, we designed systems and the data that's part of that system would remain within that system. But you didn't get the value out of it by linking that across various parts of the organization. So it's important to decouple that data and application and give that access to other parts of the organization. The other important part is decoupling applications from legacy infrastructure. I talked a little bit about infrastructure as code. That's an important component of it. And lastly, it's decoupling integrated systems into loosely coupled applications and systems. And that's important because you develop components that you can share across the organization. You do really well for one system, you want to share that component across other systems in the organization. So Adam and I were talking a little bit about boundaryless and different examples that we've seen in working with our clients. Adam had a really good one that he was talking about before. >> Yeah, so this, I think this characteristic kind of sets the foundation for how future systems are going to be constructed and when you think about the restrictions that you perhaps even falsely place on applications today by sort of limiting how they can actually expand or grow or scale over time, you're limiting the potential growth of your business, and that's why we think it's so important that as you're designing and building systems of tomorrow and we're working with a client right now who is rethinking their loyalty program, it's Cathay Pacific, a big airline. >> We're going to be speaking with them later on theCUBE. >> Yeah, and it's a remarkable story and you're going to get a lot of details of this later, but what I really love about this is they've embraced this concept of boundaryless by introducing blockchain technologies in cloud into how their loyalty points program is going to work in the future. So whether they have 10 partners, 1,000 partners, or 10,000 partners in there, the way that they've constructed their system is it is going to elastically scale to be able to support all that, and it's going to make it faster and better with higher quality than ever before for them to onboard new partners and even more importantly, serve their mile point program customers better. So great example of boundaryless and how the systems of tomorrow are going to be built. >> And particularly because you said that that was a big challenge, that it's not only not communicating with your partners, but it's also not communicating within the business, the different units not talking to each other. >> Exactly. >> So let's move onto adaptable, and adapt, you think every system's got to be adaptable, duh! But what do we need, let's break it down. >> It's actually, you know, this is a really interesting challenge for us and you're starting to see the early stages now of systems and technologies that can embrace these characteristics. Basically what we mean by adaptable is that these are systems that autonomously change. They anticipate, for example, new loads or performance expectations or they anticipate certain changes in user patterns or behavior and actually reorganize themselves without you telling them to do it. So they're taking advantage of trusted data and artificial intelligence and other elements so that they can perform better and that you can focus more attention on the business value that's delivered on top of them. A great analogy that I've used for this is imagine you've got kind of two gears that are turning towards each other, right? And one gear has like a really big tooth on it and you can kind of see it coming and it's going to wreck the other gear when it gets there. Well, imagine that gear sort of sees that coming and adapts, and says, oh, okay, I can make this area wider, and that tooth will fit right in there. That's what adaptable is all about, is it's looking at what's happening around it and it's adjusting itself so it can perform better in the enterprise instead of falling over. And that makes your systems more reliable, it makes your customer experiences better and allows you to have systems that will make you one of these high performers of tomorrow. >> Anticipating and adapting? >> Anticipating and adapting, exactly right. >> Finally, the final characteristic, radically human, I love this. Define what it is, and then I want to talk about the kinds of companies that you've seen do this best. >> Yeah, radically human, I love the term too. I think it's great, and it's really about creating systems that are simple, they're elegant, but they're also immersive to our customers. Natural language processing, computer vision, machine learning are all important components and it's really about how these systems listen, they see, they can adapt, they understand what's going on just like people do. And it's interesting that technology's become so invasive in our lives, but it's also become invisible and it's woven into the fabric of what we do, with digital assistants and all the things that are out there today. It's such an important part of what we do. So it's important to create systems that are aligned to the users, and this is created an interesting inversion. We would design systems in the past that would gather requirements and then eventually, when the system went live, you'd have to train all of the users how to use that system and you would have to adapt the user to the system. Now what we're talking about is developing systems that can adapt, to the adaptable point that Adam mentioned, but really change to work better for the users. We were talking a little bit before as well about Amazon Connect, and a great example of this is leveraging Connect and omnichannel capabilities to allow customers to interact with customer service and businesses the way they want to interact. Whether that's via phone or through online or text message, find the right medium to get them the right answers as fast as possible. A great example of this is a client we're working with, Mutual of Omaha, who's going to be here on theCUBE and we've done a breakout session with them. They've been through this whole journey and they've really gotten much better customer engagement through this. >> So it's not necessarily feeling that your technology is mimicking a human, it's really just the technology is what you, the human, want it to be, in whatever format, I mean, is that right? >> That's a really interesting way of putting it. It's about so many times, and there's examples all around us, where people have kind of adapted to technology rather than us adapting to, or rather than that, technology adapting to us. I mean, even the keyboard, I have right here, right, the keyboard? This keyboard and the layout was invented in 1870, okay? And it was invented in a way to actually slow down typists so that the arms wouldn't get stuck on it. I mean, why are we still suffering with a keyboard that limits how fast we can type this many years later. And that's the point we're trying to make with radically human, is that we should be thinking about how technology is designed around people rather than the other way around. >> So that's a real cultural shift that has to take place within companies, so what are some of the best practices that sort of how companies can become more radically human and their systems become more radically human? >> Well, look, there's human-centered design, is a really important aspect of it, and then a lot of great emerging thought in that space. We think that design thinking contributes a lot to kind of really thinking from the very beginning about how do we build applications or technology systems in the future that are going to work with people so it's human plus machine, not human versus machine. And we think the outcomes that you get from embracing some of those approaches allow you to build solutions and design them that are much more radically human in the future. And this is really important. You're going to be more productive, more effective, your workforce is going to be happier, your customers are going to be happier, and they're going to be more engaged. And there's a paradox here too. Is it the more we do this, actually the less you'll see of the technology, because it'll become embedded in the things around us. So maybe, I've actually written some things in the past that says AI is the new UI, and the end of screens, right? So maybe it doesn't really mean the end of screens, but we're going to see a lot less screens because it's easier for people to hear information, sometimes, than it is to actually see it. >> Right, this is really fascinating stuff. Thank you both so much for coming back on theCUBE for these great conversation. >> Oh, we're happy to, thank you, Rebecca. >> Adam and Chris, thank you. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight, we will have more of theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Executive Summit coming up in just a little bit. (techno music)

>> From the Regency Center in San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering Serverlessconf, San Francisco, 2018. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching theCUBE here at Serverlessconf, 2018 in San Francisco. Happy to welcome to the program Michael Garski, who's the director of platform engineering at Fender. Thanks so much for joining me. >> Thanks, Stu. Thanks for having me on. >> All right, so, luckily, I don't need to introduce Fender because I think most of our audience will be familiar with, you know, Fender, guitars, music, all that stuff, but we're going to talk a little bit about the tech side. >> Okay. >> Even though, let me ask, there's a question I usually ask. Most companies, you know, going through the digital transformation, lots of changes there. How does digital impact Fender? >> Digitally, Fender started a digital division in late 2015 and it was a focus on all-new digital products to complement our well-known physical products. Since then we've launched Fender Mod Shop, where a user can order a customized guitar online, have it delivered in a month. We have a single sign-on solution across all of our web and mobile applications, a guitar tuner, we have connected amplifiers, with companion apps to control amplifiers remotely. And our flagship product is Fender Play, which is an instructional app which allows the user to learn to play guitar, ukulele, and coming soon, bass. >> Love it. I'm guessing that has something to do with what you're involved with on the cloud and Serverless side to enable those technologies on the mobile side. >> Exactly. We've fully embraced AWS Lambda to support all of the services for the web and mobile applications. >> Okay, so A Cloud Guru's a training company and we've talked to them extensively as to why Serverless was a good fit for them, and enabled them to do it, but bring us through what led to your adoption of AWS Lambda, give us a little bit about what kind of technologies you were using before, and how you got to this solution. >> Well, we started out building services and go, just standard EC2 based microservices, and then we started tinkering a bit with Lambda. We had to adjust the product catalog from SAP. They could deliver a file, drop it into an S3 bucket, so it was simple enough to create a function that can process that file and ingest it into elastic search. From there, we used custom authorizers with API Gateway mapping templates to save custom tunings for users, and then as we started building for Tone and Play, Tone especially is a very limited audience. It's whoever buys the amplifiers. So we're not talking millions of people, it's going to be hundreds of thousands. So, it was a very good use case to go ahead and do that. Same thing with Play, we're starting a new business that's a great model for us, that we can just pay per usage. >> All right, so, yeah it sounds like you were using cloud and the usage model fit for what Serverless was built for, correct? >> Exactly, yes. >> All right, how much is management aware of, you know, kind of the underlying technology? Is your group, kind of just allowed free reign to kind of deal with this? Or are there anything you need to go to the CFO, and be like, well, you know our billings going to change a little bit compared to what you might have known in the past? >> It's, we pretty much have free reign. And our biggest AWS expense is actually what we pay for, in AWS Glacier for storage for the raw footage, of all the 4K footage from, instructional video shoots, and Lambda on top of that is simply a rounding error. >> Yeah, excellent. And the mobile apps that you've built, are there trials on there? Is everybody up to sign-up to be able to use it? Is it a freemium model or is it a paid model? >> The Tuner is a completely free application. There is an in-app purchase for cord and scale libraries, and some pro features of the tuner. Custom tunings are free. The Play application comes with a 30-day free trial, so user can sign up either on the web, or via the Google or Apple app stores on their mobile device. >> Okay, so, with that kind of model, I would think that Lambda would be nice. There's, you know, you said your expenses aren't that high using this kind of service. >> No, not at all, like I, in the month of June, we spent, I think it was like $132 for 68 million Lambda invocations. And to kind of put that in perspective a bit, it's what we pay for some EC2 services, EC2 instances that support our legacy authentication service, but we're also moving that over to Cognito now so we can get rid of all the EC2 instances. >> Okay, when you started using this technology, how'd you first learn about it? How'd you get up to speed on it? Tell us a little bit about kind of, training adoption. >> It was a lot of experimentation. So, we have it set up where we use one account for our QA and production environments and another account for our development environment. All the engineers on the team have free-reign to do whatever they want to in the development environment. They can spin up whatever they need to. So we just started playing around with things and experimenting. Like, let's hook up Lambda function to API Gateway, oh, this is going to work really well! And just kind of proceeded down that path. >> All right, great, and any learnings, anything that you tried playing with and said, like wow, this just isn't going to be a fit for what I need? Tell us, you know, what worked, what didn't? >> I would say about the only thing we found that really doesn't fit within Lambda and Serverless would be really very low latency applications. You're doing an auto complete for a search system. You want that snappy. It's, humans observe, I think it's about 100 milliseconds things seemed instantaneous, and that's going to be very challenging to get from API Gateway Lambda to get that consistently. >> Okay, great. And you're speaking here at the conference, how'd that end up happening, what are you looking to share with your peers? >> How it happened was I submitted a talk for a conference and then Drew from A Cloud Guru approached me and asked me to submit I had to tell him I already did, so they went ahead and approved it. And, I'm sharing what we've done and built at Fender Digital, and sort of what we found as far as tools for monitoring, performance optimization, as well as some things to really be cautious of when you're dealing with Lambda, especially with regards to concurrency controls. >> 'Kay, great and, how have you found the show so far? You were at the keynote, got about 500 people here. >> Yeah, it's really interesting. I'd really like the focus all on Serverless. You see, go to a lot of conferences, there might be one or two talks that kind of focus on that. It's nice to have something completely focused in that space. >> All right, and, you know, from a maturity standpoint, are there things that you're looking for in the roadmap from Amazon? They've been baking Serverless kind of into all of their services, so do you expect to stay on Lambda, or are there other services that kind of, you know FAZ or Serverless built into it that you might be using? >> We expect to stay on Lambda for the near term. I don't, we don't have any plans or looking at anything else like Azure or Google Cloud functions, our intention is to stay with AWS. They have a lot of other services, their new machine learning services, we use DynamoDB quite extensively, and so we're probably going to stick with them. >> Yeah, but inside Amazon, they've been expanding their Serverless portfolio as it was. >> Oh, yeah. >> And I remember, I was at the show when Lambda was announced, and then, you know it's Aurora with Serverless underneath and all those, so do you expect to adopt some of those other services that have AWS Serverless kind of baked into it as opposed to just using, kind of a Lambda tool. >> Absolutely, especially with, you just mentioned the Aurora Serverless model. That's one that we're taking a look at and evaluating as we've got some data in DynamoDB, but as requirements have shifted in the business over time it's really, it's becoming very difficult to model in DynamoDB, so we're going to kind of take a look at that, and possibly move to Aurora Serverless. >> I'm curious, how does Fender, does Fender think of the data involved? Is that something that, you mentioned AI, some of these, is that something that you'll be able to take the data and leverage that potentially even make new business revenue streams out of that in the future? >> We're doing some of that already by just watching user, analyzing user behavior so we can improve our products internally. And we're looking at adding more features to where we can really understand what people are doing, and then make our products better. >> All right. Michael, want to give you the final word. For your peers out there that might be saying hey, I've heard of Serverless, I'm kind of thinking at it, what advice would you give them? >> Just dive in, get started, don't hesitate. It's, it doesn't cost you anything, really to experiment with it. That model works very, very nice. >> Yeah, and it's one of the things that's great. It used to be you would take a lot of period of time and some big investment to be able to try a technology out or maybe you would get some demo, but Serverless is pretty easy to get started on. >> Exactly. Especially if you're using a framework like say, Serverless framework, or maybe using AWS. Excuse me, AWS's Serverless application model, it really helps as far as setting up all the resources that your function needs as well. >> All right well, Michael really appreciate you riffing with us on your deployments with Serverless and hope your peers will definitely check it out. All right, lots more coverage here from The Serverless Conference here in San Fransisco. I'm Stu Miniman, and thanks for watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

>> Narrator: From Hell's Kitchen in New York City, it's theCUBE, on the ground at Serverlessconf brought to you by SiliconAngle Media >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, here with theCUBE at Serverless Conference in New York City, Hell's Kitchen. Happy to have with me, first time guest on the program Sam Kroonenburg, we had your brother on the program at the AWS Summit not far from here, at the Javits Center in New York City, but you're also one of the co-founders its the two brothers for A Cloud Guru. Thanks so much for joining me, and thank you for allowing us to come get some phenomenal content here. >> Yeah, no problem. Thank you for coming for the conference today. >> Alright, so Sam, take me back, you know, we talked to your brother a little bit about, well it was an interesting story, he said actually I got turned down for a job from Amazon and ended up creating a training company. But you built this and you built it on Serverless. >> I did yeah. >> So walk us through a little bit the thought process, the timing, you know, aren't you a little bit ahead of your time on that? >> Yeah, it was mid 2015, it was a strange time. We decided we wanted to build this school, this online learning platform, but the challenge we had was that we didn't have a lot of time, we both had families, kids, you know, mortgages, financial commitments. Basically I had four weeks. I had four weeks of leave owing to me, from my employer at the time. My wife and I had been planning this big family holiday with the kids for years and we were about to take it, and I remember having this phone call with Ryan and we were talking about how there were these people taking these online courses and they were really liking them. And we thought, what if we could build this school to teach people cloud computing. It was such a buzz and we just thought, there's something in this. But the challenge was the timing. I remember my wife turned to me and she said, "Look you've got to do it, we'll cancel the holiday, "take the four weeks and give it a try." So that's what we did, we actually flew down to live with Aaron, my in-laws and help look after the kids and I locked myself in a bedroom for four weeks and tried to build an online school. And that was there was no epiphany to go Serverless there was no grand plan. It was, we had a constraint, which was time. I had no time to build this thing. And so ended up using some of the latest technologies like AWS Lambda, API Gateway, a whole bunch of Serverless technologies because I saw that they would help me build this faster. And I could get something to market in the four weeks that I had. I actually spent the first couple of days trying to skin and configure Moodle, the learning management system and I tore my hair out and yeah, ended up putting this thing together with Serverless technologies. >> Ryan just walked by-- >> Oh, there he is. >> It's a llama unicorn with a cat or something like that. >> I'm going to put in the background. >> In the back of our video. Sam, what's your brother doing here? >> He's always trying to troll me. >> So talk to us, you know one of the things the maturation, kind of the speed of change in the industry for new technologies is just so fast these days. Take us through from those early days to you know Serverless today. What's your experience been? What would you say to people that look at this technology? >> I think it's a lot easier to get into now than it was two years ago. The ecosystem has grown around it, the core technologies are pretty much the same as they were two years ago, function as a service, execute functions in the cloud very similar, but the tooling around it, the ecosystem around it has grown. There's great deployment tools, orchestration systems that have come along. It's a lot easier to just get in now and early on, when we started we had to roll a lot of things ourselves, which took a lot of time, and that's what you're trying to stop, is losing time. Yeah, so there's that and the community has really grown, there's a lot of support in the community now. >> So if you had to do it all over, you could have done it in a weekend, rather than the four weeks. >> Yeah, instead of the four weeks. >> Yeah, I mean what's-- >> That's the interesting thing about what happened to us, we would not exist, our business would not exist if it wasn't for Serverless technologies. I literally couldn't, we could not have, built that school. It's not like it was the most amazing school when we launched it, but it was enough. It was just enough to get people using it, to get to market, to start to build a business around it. >> Alright, talk to me about this event. So, its the 5th Serverlessconf, not unheard of a company that does training to get involved with physical events, 'cause you bring them together, you know, what's the thought process, talk to us a little bit about that journey and this event itself. >> Yeah, I mean, a lot of this is organic for us. We built, it was early last year, you know we're part of the Serverless communities, a lot of pioneering going on here, a lot of people facing the same challenges. And we thought, well there's no event to bring all of these people together. And there's a lot of very fast pace of change here, a lot of rapid ideation and new technologies. Let's bring everyone together and see what we can do. That's what we did with Serverlessconf. We've never run a conference before, we just hired a warehouse in Brooklyn, a bunch of Australians and British guys coming over and we just invited a bunch of people on Twitter and 250 people turned out to the first one. It just got bigger and bigger from there. So this is actually the 5th Serverlessconf now. >> Well, its a hot week again, so we appreciate that the air conditioning works at this one. >> Yes, we have air conditioning at this one. >> 460 people here, you brought in some great speakers, we had a number of them on our program this week, speak to us, I mean you've got sponsors here, you've got good speakers, give us some of the highlights. >> We've got all of the main Cloud vendors are here, Google, IBM, Microsoft, Amazon and it's actually the product teams who build this stuff. That's what I love about this event, it's actually the people who build it. It's vendor neutral, it's really cool. You get great thought leaders from the community, Simon Wardley was a highlight this morning, his talk on Value Chain Mapping and Strategy was really interesting. Randall Hunt from AWS X Space X, talking about the continuous integration process when building rockets. Space X was absolutely fascinating and what bugs in production mean when you're building a rocket. It means the rocket blows up. Really interesting variety of talks from those tooling providers, companies like us who are just building on Serverless and then Serverless tooling companies and vendors. Really fascinating. >> Alright, Sam what should we be looking for in the future from Serverless and from A Cloud Guru? >> We're going to be doing a whole lot more Serverless content. You're going to see a lot of really interesting new content through our site, a lot of teaching on Serverless, we're going to be doing more Serverless Conferences. You'll see a lot from us, not just us, but from the wider community who come to the conference, who we know well, a lot of the experts, we're going to be doing a lot of work with those people. >> Well Sam Kroonenburg, really appreciate you joining us, appreciate the media sponsorship to allow theCube to come get some great content and share it with our communities, hope to see you at many more events in the future. >> Thank you for coming. >> Thank you so much. Sam Kroonenburg, I'm Stu Miniman. Thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Manhattan, It's theCUBE. Covering AWS Summit, New York City, 2017. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back to Midtown. We're at the Javits Center here. (sound cuts out) 2017, along with Stu Miniman, I'm John Walls and you're watching The Cube as we continue with what's happening here. About five thousand people on the show floor and they said some twenty thousand registrants. Right Stew? That people came in and wanted to watch the keynotes live. >> It could be ten thousand that walked through before the days-- >> Right, it's hard to tell. >> Yeah. >> And right now half of them are outside looking for a cab I think. That's the way it works here. Ryan Kroonenburg is also here. He's the founder of a company called A Cloud Guru. >> Yes. >> I like Ryan already. I liked him as soon as we met him because he said, "like the beer, Kroonenburg." So you resonated with the two of us, Ryan. >> Ryan like the airline and Kroonenburg like the beer. >> We appreciate that. Alright, so you're a cloud education company. >> Yes. >> And you bill yourself or at least in the conversation as you want to be the Netflix of cloud education. That's what you're doing. Tell us a little bit about the founding of the company. It began with your brother? >> Yes, yeah. >> Just two years ago and now you've grown to some 40 employees. >> Yeah, so I used to be a solutions architect and I was desperate to get a job at AWS so I became obsessed with getting trained in AWS. And at the time, a company I worked for had a training freeze. So we couldn't go out and do in-classroom training. If I had to do that myself, I'd have to pay for it myself. And I found that there wasn't a lot of good on-line training companies two years ago. I didn't get the job with AWS and turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me. And so I decided to create my own course on AWS. Launched that, started going viral and that was the birth of A Cloud Guru. >> Ryan, bring is in a little inside of building the company, so you're not only teaching cloud, but you're built on cloud and not just any cloud, but using the LAN to server list from pretty early on that. >> Exactly, so we practice what we preach. You know, we are real AWS engineers. We built the entire platform serverlessly. We think we're the world's first serverless start-up. We're certainly the world's first serverless learning management system. So we don't pay for any servers whatsoever. There's no virtual/physical servers. And we're basically, purely AWS native. We do use a bunch of third party services like Xero and PayPal and things like that. But most of our platforms are AWS. >> Yeah, in the keynote this morning, Adrian Cockroft talked about Bustle, A New York based start-up that uses a lot of serverless, but you built the company before you even had funding and now you've got a little bit of funding. Can you give any insight? Do the investors looks at that and say, wow, this is a great model? >> Yeah, so we raised a decent series A. One of the founders of Warby Parker is on our board now so that's really exciting. A guy called Andy and he's helping us scale. One of the reasons we took funding was helping to scale. So our infrastructure scales automatically with AWS because it's built on Lambda and API Gateway. But we as a company are struggling to scale in like finding the right employees and all of that sort of thing, so that's where we're getting some help. >> Alright, what are you hearing from people taking your courses? What new things are they asking for? How are you expanding the scope of your offerings? >> Everyone is obviously very interested in AWS, but they also want to learn other cloud-computing platforms now, especially Azure, so we are expanding the scope of our content to do Azure as well as Guru. The other problem people are having is, AWS innovates so quickly. You know, there's like a thousand updates last year. There's 19 new updates last week. So there having trouble keeping up so we run just a weekly TV show called, AWS This Week, and we basically just tell people what's new this week. And the great thing about New York Summit is there's been like five or six announcements here so I'm going to be busy on Friday, filming. >> Is there any one particular area of training that you see more people drifting toward or following toward? >> I think serverless and big data are the hot topics. Big data, by that I mean AI, machine learning. That's just exploding right now. And just serverless architectures because the future of cloud is serverless. Why pay for virtual, physical machines by the hour or by the minute and have system administrators, network administrators, database administrators when all you actually want to focus on is your code and your end customers and serverless allows you to do that. >> So what's your process then? In terms of you staying on top of it, right? Because now you have to. >> Ryan: Yeah. >> I mean, you, you're it, right? You're the point of expertise. So how do you ... I guess, remain in that kind of relationship with AWS that you're the cusp? >> So, I obviously read all the blogs. Our students, We've got 300,000 students right now and our discussion forums are very very active so if they have announced something that I've missed, the students tell me, like, we'll know within a few hours. So, that's it really. It's just forever learning, but I love learning anyway so it's fun to get paid to learn. >> John: Sure. You bet. >> Ryan, how many people have gone through the training so far? Do you know how many of them get certified after they do that? And how many are kind of repeat customers? >> We've got 300,00 have gone through the training so far. We do track our pass rates. Our pass rates vary from anywhere between, normally 80 to 90%. Not everyone will pass on the first go because the exams are tough and it's also quite stressful. Sitting these exams can be quite stressful. In terms of the number of students that actually go on to get certified, that's not something we track just yet, but we're looking to change that as well. But yeah, we have a very good pass rate. >> So how does it work? I want to learn, you know, whatever. I want to dive into AI, whatever it is. I come to you, you've got something for me there right? You've got, I don't know how many hours of work I have to do, but take us through how it really works. >> Yeah so, it's video training. Online video training. So say you want to learn DynamoDB. We have a 19 hour course on that. And we go right into the very depths of DynamoDB. So you watch the videos. we'll show you what we're doing in the labs. We'll give you all the sample code if we're using code and then you can go and do it yourself. We very much believe in, the only way to learn Cloud is by getting your hands dirty. To actually go and do it yourself. So people watch the labs, do the stuff themselves and then complete the course. If it's a certification course, then at the end what they'll do is go and book the exam and hopefully, they'll pass the exam as well. >> So Ryan, you're in there looking at all this stuff, especially things like server lists. What are you looking for, for kind of the maturation? Is there anything that do you give feedback to Amazon? The community give you feedback? I have to imagine that there's some good feedback loops there? >> Yeah, I'm lucky enough to be an AWS community hero. So we get get briefed by Amazon on things that are coming out. You know, under MDA of course. We give a lot of feedback on that. No, I think serverless is the next big revolution. I hate hype and buzz words and things like that, but the thing about serverless is that, now you don't have to worry about servers. You can just focus on your code and you don't need to worry about any of the normal administration behind it and it's like ridiculously cheap. You get a million lambda implications a month for free. That's just part of Free Tier. We actually only just came off of Lambda Free Tier a couple of months ago and we've got 300,000 students. So, it's very very very cheap so its amazing. It's driving new revolution. >> What advice would you give to someone if they were looking to start a business and using serverless as a platform? >> Yeah, definitely check out AWS of course, we build our entire business off AWS. Design, try if you can, architect everything in a serverless fashion because like I keep saying, you don't have to worry about management of operating systems, virus patching, security, any of that. AWS, they take all... They take care of all of the heavy lifting for you. >> So I know you are a big fan of Lambda, but have you looked at some of the other serverless options out there? Is there any concern around, there's open source options out there. >> Ryan: Yeah. >> How do we get compatibility and not be just locked into Amazon? >> Azure Functions looks really good. See, this thing about vendor lock-in, I mean, you've got the serverless framework as well. If you build your applications on the serverless framework, you can move between platforms quite easily. That is coming so you could build it out on AWS and then move over to Azure if you wanted. The founder of serverless frameworks is a good friend of mine. So I definitely recommended checking it out. And that would be my advice. If you are going to go serverless use the serverless framework so then you don't have to worry about vendor lock in. But at the same time, Amazon, they reduce their prices all the time. So it is a good vendor to be with. >> I just think your story is great. I think that the best "no" you ever got in your life was from AWS. And now you're giving them a big "yes". >> Yeah, absolutely, I love AWS. They're such amazing people as well. They've all become my-- through my business and people I used to work with have all become really good friends of mine as well. It's been a great journey in last two years. >> You've done well for them, they've done well for you. It's a good relationship. >> Exactly. >> Ryan, thanks for being with us. >> Thank you. >> And continued success. >> Right, thanks guys. >> Good for you. You bet, Ryan Kroonenburg. The founder of A Cloud Guru. Along with his brother, Sam, making a pretty good business out of things on the AWS platform right now. Back with more here from AWS Summit, right after this. You're watching The Cube. (fast music)