welcome back to la we are live in los angeles at kubecon cloudnativecon 21 lisa martin and dave nicholson we've been talking to folks all day great to be here in person about 2 700 folks are here the kubernetes the community the cncf community is huge 138 000 folks great to see some of them in person back collaborating once again dave and i are pleased to welcome our next guest we have suresh ragaram co-founder and ceo of platform 9. sarish welcome to the program thank you for having me it's a pleasure to be here give our audience an overview of platform 9 who are you guys what do you do when were you founded all that good stuff so we are about seven years old we were founded with a mission to make it easy to run private hybrid and edge clouds my co-founders and i were early engineers at vmware and what we realized is that it's really easy to go use the public cloud because the public clouds have this innovation which is they have a control plane which serves as a it serves as a foundation for them to launch a lot of services and make that really simple and easy to use but if you need to get that experience in a private cloud or a hybrid cloud or in the edge nobody gives you that cloud control plane you get it from amazon in amazon get it from azure in azure google and google who gives you a sas cloud control plane to run private clouds or edge clouds or hybrid clouds nobody and this is uh this is what we do so this is we make it easy to run these clouds using technologies like kubernetes with our our sas control plane now is it limited to kubernetes because when you you you mentioned your background at vmware uh is this a control plane for what people would think of as private clouds using vmware style abstraction or is this primarily cloud native so when we first started actually docker did not exist like okay so at the time our first product to market was actually an infrastructure service product and at the time we looked at what is what is out there we knew vmware vsphere was out there it's a vmware technology there was apache cloud stack and openstack and we had look the open ecosystem around vms and infrastructure as a service is openstack so we chose open source as the lingua franca for the service endpoint so our control plane we deliver openstack as a service that was our first product when kubernetes when the announcement of communities came out from google we knew at that time we're going to go launch because we'd already been studying lxc and and docker we knew at the time we're going to standardize on kubernetes because we believe that an open ecosystem was forming around that that was a big bet for us you know this this this foundation and this this community is proof that that was a good bet and today that's actually a flap flagship product it's our you know the biggest biggest share of revenue biggest share of install base uh but we do have more than one product we have openstack as a service we have bare metal as a service we have containers as a service with kubernetes i want to ask you some of the the i'm looking at your website here platform9.com some of the three marketing messages i want you to break these down for me simplify day two ops multi-cloud ready on day one and we know so many businesses are multi-cloud and percentage is only going up and faster time to market talk to me about this let's start with simplified day two ops how do you enable that so you know one of the biggest if you talk to anyone who runs like a large vmware environment and you ask them when was the last time you did an upgrade or for that matter somebody who's running like a large-scale kubernetes environment or an openstack environment uh probably in a private cloud deployment awesome when was the last time you did an upgrade how did that go when was the last time you had an outage who did you call how did that go right and you'll hear an outpouring of emotion okay same thing you go ask people when you use kubernetes in the public cloud how do these things work and they'll say it's pretty easy it's not that hard and so the question the idea of platform 9 is why is there such a divide there's this you know we talk about digital divide there is a cloud divide the public clouds have figured out something that the rest of the industry has not and people suffer with private clouds there's a lot of demand for private clouds very few people can make it work because they try to do it with a lot of like handheld tools and you know limited automation skills and scripting what you need is you need the automation that makes sure that ongoing troubleshooting 24x7 alerting upgrades to new versions are all fully managed when amazon doesn't upgrade to a new version people don't have to worry about it they don't have to stay up at night they don't deal with outages you shouldn't have to deal with that in your private cloud so those are the kinds of problems right the troubleshooting the upgrades the the remediation when things go wrong that are taken for granted in the public cloud that we bring to the customers who want to run them in private or hybrid or edge cloud environments how do you help customers and what does future proofing mean like how do you help customers future proof their cloud native journey what does that mean to platform 9 and what does that mean to your customers i'll give you one of my favorite stories is actually one of our early customers is snapfish it's a photo sharing company it's a consumer company right when they got started with us they were coming off of vmware they wanted to run an openstack environment they started nearly four years ago and they started using us with openstack and vms and infrastructure as a service fast forward to today 85 percent of the usage on us is containers and they didn't have to hire openstack experts nor do they have to hire kubernetes experts but their application development teams got went from moving from a somewhat legacy vmware style id environment to a modern self-service developer experience with openstack and then to containers and kubernetes and we're gonna we're gonna work on the next generation of innovation with serverless technologies simplifying you know building modern more elastic applications and so our control plane the beauty of our model is our control plane adds value it added value with openstack it added value with kubernetes it'll add value with what's next around the evolution of serverless technologies right it's evergreen and our customers get the benefit of all of that so when you talk about managing environments that are on premises and in clouds i assume you're talking hyperscale clouds like aws azure gcp um what kind of infrastructure needs to be deployed and when i say infrastructure that's can be software what needs to be deployed in say aws for this to work what does it look like so some 30 of our users use us on in the public cloud and the majority of that actually happens in aws uh because they're the number one cloud and we really give people three choices right so they can choose to use and consume aws the way they want to so we have a small minority of customers that actually provisions bare metal servers in aws that's a small minority because the specific use cases they're trying to do and they try to deploy like kubernetes on bare metal but the bare metal happens to be running on aws okay that's a small minority a larger majority of our users in aws or some hyperscale cloud brings their vpc under management so they come in get started sign up with platform 9 in their platform 9 control plane they go and say i want to plug in this vpc and i want to give you this much authorization to this vpc and in that vpc we essentially can impersonate them and on their behalf provision nodes and provision clusters using our communities open source kubernetes upstream cncf kubernetes but we also have customers that said hey i already have some clusters with eks i really like what the rest of your platform allows me to do and i think it's a better platform for me to use for a variety of reasons can you bring my eks clusters under management and then help me provision new new clusters on top and the answer is you can so you can choose to bring your bare metal you can choose to bring your vpc and just provision like virtual machine and treat them as nodes for communities clusters or you can bring pre-built kubernetes clusters and manage them using our management uh product what are your routes to market so we have three routes to market um we have a completely self-serve completely free forever uh experience where people can just go sign up log in get access to the control plane and be up and running within minutes right they can plug in their server hardware on premises at the edge in the cloud their vpcs and they can be up and running from there they can choose to upgrade upsell into a grow into an uh growth tier or you know choose to request for more support and a higher touch experience and work with our sales team and get into an enterprise tier and our that is our second go to market which is a direct go to market uh companies in the retail space companies tech companies uh companies in fintech companies that are investing in digital transformation a big way have lots of software developers and are adopting these technologies in a big way but want private or hybrid or edge clouds that's the second go to market the third and and in the last two years this is new to us really exciting go to market to us is a partner partner let go to market where partners like rackspace have oem platform line so we have a partnership d partnership with rackspace all of rackspace's customers and they install base essentially including customers who are consuming public cloud services wire rackspace get access to platform 9 and rackspace working together with rackspace's ability to kind of service the whole mile uh and also uh we have a very important partnership with maveneer in the 5g space so 5g we think is a large opportunity and there's a there's a joint product there called maven webscape platform to run 5g networks on our community stack so platform nine why what does that mean harry potter harry potter so it's platform nine and three quarters okay we had this realization my cofounders and i were at vmware for 10 for 10 15 years and we were struggling with this problem of why is the public cloud so easy to use why is it so hard to run a private cloud and even today i think not many people realize uh and that's the analogy to platform nine and three quarters it's like it's right in the middle of king's cross station you go through it and you enter the whole new world of magic that that secret door that platform nine and three quarters is a sas control plane that is a secret sauce that amazon has and azure has and google has and we're bringing that for anybody who wants to use it on any infrastructure of their choice where can customers go to learn more about platform nine so platform nine dot com uh follow us on twitter platform line says or on linkedin you know and if any of our viewers are here at kubecon they can stop by your booth what are some of the things that you're featuring there we are at the booth we have our product managers we have our support engineers we have the people that are actually doing the real work behind the product right there we're talking about our roadmap we're talking about the product demos we're doing like specific show talks on specific deep dives in our product and we're also talking about some some really cool things that are coming up in the garage uh in the in the next six months can you leave us with any teasers about what some of the cool things are that are coming up in the garage yeah one one one thing that is a really big deal is um uh is the ability to manage kubernetes clusters as as as cattle right kubernetes makes node management and app management lets you treat them as cattle instead of pets but kubernetes clusters themselves our customers tell us like even in amazon eks and others these clusters themselves become pets and they become hard to manage so we have a really really interesting capability to manage these as more as you know from infrastructure code with githubs uh as cattle we actually have an announcement that i'm not able to share at this point which is coming out in two weeks uh in the ed space so you'll have to stay tuned for that so folks can go to platformnine.com.com check out that announcement two weeks two weeks from now by the end of october that's right awesome sharers thank you so much for joining us i love the fact that you asked that question because i kept thinking platform nine where do i know that from and i just googled harry potter that's right from nine and five dying because i didn't automatically make the correlation because my son and i are the most unbelievable potterheads ever yeah well so we have that in common that's fantastic awesome thank you for joining us sharing what platform mine is some of the exciting stuff coming out and two weeks learn to hear some great news about the edge absolutely awesome thank you for joining us my pleasure thank you for having me uh our pleasure as well for dave nicholson i'm lisa martin live in los angeles thecube is covering kubecon cloudnativecon21 stick around we'll be right back with our next guest

>> Narrator: Live, from Nice, France. It's theCUBE. Covering .NEXT Conference 2017 Europe. Brought to you by Nutanix. (techno music) >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and this is SiliconANGLE Media's production of theCUBE. Happy to have a welcome back to the program, CEO and Founder of Nutanix, Dheeraj Pandey. The keynote this morning, talking about how Nutanix really going from a traditional enterprise infrastructure company really becoming it's goal of being an iconic software company. So, Dheeraj, bring us up to speed as to you know, how Nutanix positioned itself for this future. >> Yeah, I think it's it's been a rite of passage because you can't start from AWS in day one. You have to sell books, and sell eCommerce. You know, you being in the eCommerce space. It was a 20 years journey for them before they could get into computing and people took them seriously. I mean, look at Apple with iPod, and then iPhone, and the iPad, and then iTunes and app store. And all that stuff was a journey of 15 years. You know, before they could really see that they've arrived. I think for us we had to build the form factor of an iPhone four so that people realize what this hyperconvergence thing was. Before we could go and ship an android as an operating system. 'Cause if hadn't android operating system come first... Just like Windows Mobile operating system was around for a while and nobody really understood how to really go and make money on it. I think we had to build a form factor first. And now that people grock it, now we can really go and make software out of this. And be swell software and make the android version of the iOS itself. And that's the thing. I think, as a company we're challenged to balance these paradoxes. Oh, I thought you were an appliance company and you believe in this Apple like finesse. Polish and attention to detail. How do you apply that to an android like the shboosh model where you leave it to others to go and build handsets and so on. I think that's the challenge that you've taken upon ourselves. Now inside, with the cloud service, we have a lot of control. With appliances, we have somewhat control because we at least know what our hardware is running on. But software we open it up. And opening it up, and yet not giving up on the attention to detail is the challenge that this company has to, actually, really go and undertake. We are looking at a lot of our tools and bill for certifications, and you know, passing the test. The litmus test for hardware and we're trying to figure out how to automate the heck out of it. Make them into cloud services. So that customers can now go an crowdsource certifications. So, there'll be some new paradigms that will emerge and the reason why we are well placed for those kinds of things is because our heritage is appliance. So now when we think of doing software a lot of the tooling, a lot of the automations, certifications, the attention to detail we had we'll need to go and make them into cloud services. We have some of them, like Cicer is a cloud service. X-ray is a cloud service. Foundation is a cloud service. So a lot of these services will then go and make the job of certifying an unknown piece of hardware easier, actually. I mean in fact, even day two and beyond we have what we can NCC which is a service that runs from within prism to do health checks. And every two hours you can do health checks. So if there's a new piece of hardware that we thought we just certified, we need to keep paranoid about it. Stay paranoid about it, and say, look is the hardware really the hardware we wanted it to be. So there's lots of really innovative things we can do as a company that really had the heritage of appliance to go and do software, as well. >> Yeah, absolutely people have always underestimated the interoperability required. Remember when server virtualization rolled out up the BIOS. You know, could make everything go horribly. Even, you know, containers could give you portability and run everywhere. Oh wait, networking and storage. There's considerations there. Do you think it's getting to a point from a maturation of the market that the software... You know, can you in the future take Nutanix to be a fully software company where you kind of let somebody else take care of the hardware pieces and then you just become their software. And then there's service software services. That seem like a likely future? >> Yeah, I think with the right tools, right level of automation, right level of machine learning, right level of talk-back. You know, I say talk-balk, I mean the fact that the hard beats are coming to us we understand what the customers are doing. And with the right level of paranoia day two and beyond. Which is NCC for example, it's, We call it Nutanix Cluster check. And it does like 350 odd health checks on a periodic basis. And it erases the load, and some things like that. With the right level of paranoia I think we can really go and make this work. And by the way, that's where design comes in. Like, how do you think of X-Ray as a service, and Foundation, and Cicer and NCC and so on. I think that's where the real design of a software company that is also not being callous about hardware comes in, actually. So I'm really looking forward to it. I think... it's not just about tech and products. It's also about go-to-market because go-to-market has a change too. I mean, the kind of packaging, and the kind of pricing, the kind of ELA's, sales compensation, channel programs, a lot of those things have to be revisited as well. As upstream engineering, you talk about, there's a lot of downstream go-to market engineering as well, that needs to be done. >> Now, when it comes to go-to-market, partnerships are key of course. There's the channel. You want to grow your sales channel, and grow a piece. But also from a technology standpoint, there's a comment I heard you make earlier this week. You know, Google has the opportunity to be kind of that next partner. As like Dell was a partner to give you pre-IPO credibility Dell's trusted you. Dell, you have Lenovo, you have IBM up on stage there. As a software company, who are the partners that help Nutanix kind of through this next phase? >> I think you mentioned some of them already. You know, the cloud vendors, though, obviously open up. And there will be new ones that'll open up over time as well. Where we're thinking about ways to blur the lines between public and private. Because I think the world, including the public cloud vendors have come to realize that. You know, you can't have silos. You can't have a public cloud that's separate from the private and so on. So being able to blur the lines, there'll be a lot of cloud partners for us as well. I think on the hardware side, we already talked about all of them, actually. Now, HP and Cisco are right now partners, in double quotes, because we go and make our software work on it, you know. But on some levels they'll probably also have to open up. And they're networking partners that've been working with you know, Arista is a good case in point. Lexi's another one. And security partners, like Palo Alto could be a large one over time because we think about what firewalls need to be look like in the next five years, and so on, you know. I think in every way, I look at even Apache foundation. Which is not really a company but the fact that we can really coop a lot of open source and build COM marketplace apps. Where the apps could be spun up in an on-prem environment and a single tenet on-prem environment. And you can drag and drop them into a side merchant intent environment. I think being able to go and do more with Apache. To me it's the... I would say, the biggest game changer for the company would be what else can we do with Apache? You know, 'cause we did a lot the first eight years. I mean, obviously, Linux is a big piece of our overall story, you know. Not just as hypervisor but a controller, and things like that is all Linux based. Which draws the pace of innovation of this company, actually. But beyond Linux, we've used Cassandra and ZooKeeper, RocksDB and things like that. What else can we do with Apache Spark, and Costco, and MariaDB, and things like that. I think we need to go and elevate the definition of infrastructure. To include databases and NoSQL systems, and batch processing hadoop, and things like that. All those things become a part of the overall marketplace story for us, you know. And that's where the really interesting stuff really comes in. >> How do you look at open source from a strategic standpoint from Nutanix? I think it's been phenomenal because we have then operated as a company that's bigger than we are. 'Cause otherwise, I mean, look at VMware. They don't have that goodness. Nor does Microsoft actually. I mean, Amazon is the only one that really goes and makes the best out of open source. >> Explain that, we say Microsoft had a huge push into open source. Especially, you know, kind of publicly the last two or three years. But they've been working on it, they've, you know, heavily embraced containers. You know, they've gone Kubernetes. You know, heavily. >> I'm going to give you examples. I think there's a lot of marchitecture. And what Microsoft is doing is open source. But, of course you know, Linux has to work on Hyper-V. So, that's a given. They cannot make a relevant stack without really making Linux work in Hyper-V. But they tried Hadoop on Windows. And Horton works actually on quartered Hadoop in Windows but there are not too many takers, as you see, you know. Containers will probably continue to make a lot of progress on Linux because of the LXD and LXC engines, and things like that. And there's a lot more momentum on the Linux side of containers then the LB on the Windows side containers >> And even Azure is running more Linux than they are Windows these days. >> Absolutely, now that being said, Azure Stack is still Azure Stack. It's still Hyper-V. It's still system centered, not user-centered and things like that. I think Microsoft software will really, really have to find itself. And change a lot of its thinking to really go and say we truly embrace open source like the way Amazon does. And like the way Facebook does. Like the way Nutanix does, I think. You know, it's a very different way we look at open source. We are much like Facebook and Amazon than someone else. I mean, VMware is way farther away from open source, in that sense. I mean vSphere, overall You know, I mean I would say that it probably is Linux based. ESX is Linux based from 17, 18 years ago. I am sure that curt path has been forked forever. And it's very hard for them to go and uptake from open source from overall upstream stuff actually. That we build, you know I mean, our stuff runs on a palm sized server. A palm sized server, imagine it. And that's where we put in a drone and that's the foundation of an edge cloud for us, in some sense. Our stuff runs on IBM power system because IBM was doing a lot of work with open source KVM that made it easy for us to port it to H-V, and so on. And so, I think H-V is a lot more momentum because it shares that overall core base of open source, as well. And I think, over time we'll do many more things with open source. Including in the platform space. >> Okay, how's Nutanix doing globally. You know, what more do you want to be doing. How would you rate yourself on kind of new tenent as a global company? >> I think it's a great question and it's one of those that's a double edged sword, actually. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. So when you stop growing, non-US business become 50%, 'cause that's pretty much the reflection of ID spend. Half the spend is outside the US, half the spend is within the US. Right from here is 65/35. Which is a very healthy place to be in, actually. I don't want to just think to change to like 50/50 end because that's a proxy for are we stop growing, actually. At the same time, I'd love to be shipping everywhere, because again, I've said that the definition of an enterprise cloud is even more relevant. And, you know, parts of the world that is not US, actually. In that sense, just being able to go and maintain that customer base outside the US. I mean, being able to do it. I mean, you know we recently sold a system in Myanmar, actually. And I was telling my friends that look, now I can die in piece because we have a system in Myanmar, you know. But the very fact that they are partners, and there's the channel community, and there's technology champion and their exports. There are certified people in these remote parts of the world. And the fact that we can support these customers successfully, says a lot about the overall reach of the technology. The fact that it's reliable, the fact that it's easy to use and spin up, and the fact that its easy to get certified on. I think is the core of Nutanix, so I feel good about those things, actually. >> You've reached a certain maturity of product marketed option and we've seen Nutanix starting to spread out into certain things sometimes we call adjacencies. You've talked about some of the different softer pieces. How do you manage the growth, the spread and make sure that, you know, simplicity. We were talking to Seneal this morning about absolutely you want simplicity but you also want to, you know. Where does Nutanix play and where don't they play? You know, where >> That's a great question So, there's a really good book that I was introduced to about two years ago. And it's also... There's some videos on YouTube about this book. It's called, The Founder's Mentality the YouTube video is called The Founder's Mentality, as well. And it talks about this very phenomenon that as companies grow they become complex. So they introduce a problem. It's called the Paradox of Growth. The thing that you want to do, really do, was grow. And that thing that you covered kills you. 'Cause growth creates complexity and complexity is a silent killer of growth. So the thing that you covered is the thing that kills you. And that is the Paradox of Growth, actually. You know, in very simple terms. And then it goes on to talk about what are the things you need to do because you started an insurgent company over time you started acting like you've arrived and you're incumbent now, all of a sudden. And the moment you start thinking like an incumbent you're done, in some sense. What are the headwinds, and what are the tailwinds that you can actually produce to actually stay an insurgent. I think there's some great lessons there about an insurgent mindset, and an owner's mentality and then finally, this obsessions for the front lining. How do you think about customers as the first, last thing. So, I think that's one of the guiding principles of the company. In how can we continue to imbibe the founder's mentality in there as well. Where every employee can be a founder, actually, without really having the founder's tag, and so on. And then internally, there's a lot of things we could do differently, in the way that we do engineering, in the way we do collaboration. I mean, these are all good things to revisit design. Not just the product design piece, but organizational design like what does it mean to have two PIDs a team, and microservices, and product managers, and prism developers and COM developers, assigned to two PIDs a team, and so on. QA developers and so on. So there's a lot of structure that we can put at scale. That continues to make us look small, continues to have accountability at a product manager level so that they act like GM's, as opposed to PM's. Where each of these two PIDs a team are like a quasi PNL. You know they, you can look at them very objectively and you can fund them. If they start to become too big you need to split them. If they are not doing too well, you need to go and kill them, actually. >> Alright, Dheeraj, last question I have for you. Enterprise cloud, I think, you know when it first came out as a term, we said, it was a little bit inspirational. What should we be looking for in a year to really benchmark and show as proof points that it's becoming reality. You know, from Nutanix. >> That's a great point. You know, obviously, when Gartner starts to use the term very close term, you know what I say. Used the term enterprise cloud operating system. And in one of the recent discourses I saw, enterprise cloud operating model. That's very similar to system, vs model, but the operating model of the enterprise cloud is based on the tenants of you know, web skilled engineering you know, the fact that things aren't in commodity servers. Everything is pure software and you have zero differentiation in hardware. And all those differentiation comes in pure software. Infrastructure is cold. All those things are not going away. Now how it becomes easy to use, so that you don't need PhD's to manage it is where consumer grade design comes in. And where you have this notion of prism and calmed that actually come to really help make it easy to use. I think this is the core of enterprise cloud itself, you know. I think, obviously, every layer in this overall cake needs more features, more capability, and so on. But foundationally, it's about web skilled engineering, consumer grade design. And if you're doing these two things getting more workloads, getting more geographies, getting more platforms, getting more features... All those things are basically a rite of passage. You know, you need to continue to do them all the time, actually. >> Alright, Dheeraj, I had a customer on. Said the reason he bought Nutanix was for that fullness of vision. So, always appreciate catching up with you. And we'll be back with lots more coverage here from Nutanix .NEXT, here in Nice, France. I'm Stu Miniman, and you're watching TheCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's theCUBE. Covering DockerCon 2017. Brought to you by Docker, and support from its ecosystem partners. (bright electronic music) >> Welcome to SiliconANGLE Media's coverage of DockerCon 2017. This is theCUBE. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for the next two days is Jim Kobielus, and happy to have as our first guest on the program, is Brian Gracely. A year ago, actually, Brian had a beard, and he was one of the hosts on theCUBE. He's now with Red Hat. Brian, welcome back to the program. >> Stu, great to be on this side of the table again. Good to see you guys. >> And Brian, you were at the first CUBE event back in 2010. We've had you on at least once or twice every year. You did a few more when you were on our team, but happy to have you back as a guest. Why don't you bring our audience up to speed? What brought you to Red Hat and what's your role there, and what brings you to DockerCon? >> Yeah, so, been at Red Hat about a year, a little less than a year now, worked on the OpenShift team, so focused on Kubernetes containers, integrated Linux. It was a great opportunity to be in open source, which I've been working on for a year. It was at home, it was in Raleigh, and it's a great team. It's a team that's growing. The Kubernetes space is growing, so, the vendor side of the world drew me back into Red Hat, so it's been good. >> Yeah, open source, big component about what we're talking here at this show. I heard open source mentioned a ton. It was developers, it was contributors. What's your take, did you get a chance to see some of the keynote? Solomon got out there, thanked the 3300-plus contributor. When he put up the name of the companies, I think it was 41% of the contributors for all of this are independent, but then, Red Hat's in the top six companies there. What's your take on that and the ecosystem in general? >> Yeah, I thought it was, I thought the keynote was good. Obviously, the show's doing well, so it's great to see the container space doing really well. We've been part of the Docker ecosystem since sort of day one. We like to say that we're probably the biggest distributor of what used to be Docker is now Moby, within Rail. But yeah, I think we see that, we obviously believe in the open source movement. We're seeing more and more customers, our customers who want to contribute, who want to make it the de facto buying decision as to what they use, so, yeah, it's great to see not only huge open source support, but then seeing it become, to blossom into very viable, commercial offerings around the market. >> Yeah, so, Brian, your team actually wrote a blog leading up to the show that says, "Containers or Linux." After listening to the keynote, with LinuxKit announced, it felt like, oh well, Linux is containers. It seems like, reminds me back, Sun is, the network is the computer, the computer is the network. It's all kind of looking at it. What's your take as to kind of the relationship of containers with Linux, of course Windows fits in the mix, too, but the operating system and the containers. >> Well, I think, the reason we really put that out was if you go back a little bit historically, not to bore people, containers aren't a Docker thing. Containers are a Linux thing. They were created by Google, Red Hat made a huge contribution sort of secondarily around namespaces, Google did cgroups, IBM did LXC, so it's been a core Linux feature for over a decade now. Docker did a great job of making it easier to use, but at the end of the day, even if you look at, like, what LinuxKit and some of these other things are, they're not about sort of Linux versus Windows, it's, they are all Linux, and it's how do I represent Linux in ways of doing that? So we really kind of want to just reinforce this idea that there are things that you expect out of your operating system, containers being one of them, but if you look at every other project that's being built around this space, whether it's Kubernetes, whether it's management tools that are be, they're all being built on Linux. That's the foundation of this, and it's kind of just a reinforcement to people that, remember where your tools come from, what that thing is that drives security for you, things in that space. >> Brian, you wrote a lot about kind of cloud-native and that journey kind of, rewriting applications, containers, for the fits into that a lot. What have you seen changing kind of last 12 to 18 months? Couple of shows I've been to lately, it feels like we're talking about lift-and-shift more than we are about building new applications. What's the application space look like, and I know Jim's going to want to jump in here. He covers the cloud-native stuff. >> So I think there's a couple of big things that, and I wrote about it for a while, and it's, how much has changed in the last two years have been really interesting. So, I think originally, when you went and looked at platforms, whether it was OpenShift or Cloud Foundry or Heroku or whatever, lots of sort of what we used to call opinionated systems. You dictated what developers did, right? And then, we had-- >> Jim: Opinionated systems? >> Very opinionated platforms, right? The opinion of us, the creators, was going to get forced on you, the developer, right? >> Stu: It made a lot of the decisions for you, so. (Jim laughs) >> And again, the idea was make it easier for you. You don't have to think about those things, but you're going to get them in the way that we want them, and what ended up happening was Docker would kind of became a standard way, a standard container format. We ended up having these open source schedulers like Mesos and Kubernetes and other things, and that allowed the platforms to be a little more, what I was calling composable, so, because developers may not want to use the languages that you force on them, they may not want to use them in those ways. So I think what we've seen is this sort of blurring between what used to be heavily opinionated to becoming more composable, modular, and there's always this trade-off between how much do developers want to care, how much do they not? So that's one big trend that we've seen, is this start of back and forth of what that is. The other one we saw was-- >> In terms of compatibility, (mumbles) quickly, do you see any trend in this space, containers, toward visual composition of applications? What I'm seeing in today, and I've seen generally in this space, is mostly coding, command line interfaces, any visual composition tools you guys provide or any partners of yours for-- >> Brian: Yeah, there's-- >> For building containerized applications? >> And so I think there's sort of two pieces there. It's a great question because ultimately, if the coding piece is hard, you only reach a small segment of those developers, right? You want to, it's like when websites came out, they were all hand-coded in HTML and stuff, and then you had things like Dreamweaver and these other visual tools, and then it exploded. We've seen that. To be successful in this, you've got to have tools in the desktop that make it easier for the developers. Red Hat does something that we call the Container Developer Kit, which is really, write your application, a lot of the stuff in the background gets hidden. Docker has Docker for Mac and Docker for Windows. We see some other tools. So that piece is important. The other piece that, to come back to your question about it, is it lift-and-shift? We probably see 75, 80% of the customers we work with who say, "Look, I know I've got to do cloud-native. "I've got digital transformation "and all these sort of things, "but I've got a lot of portfolio "that I'd like to modernize. "Can I do that with containers?" And I think what we've seen is, for the early days, it was containers are only for new. They only work for microservices, they're only for new, and what we're seeing, and this again goes back to the sort of, containers are Linux, is customers say, "I have an application that ran perfectly fine in Linux. "Why wouldn't it run really well in there?" And we've got customers nowadays, and this sort of blows people's minds, like, we've got customers who will pick up things like WebSphere, put them into a container, run them, modernize them somewhat, but, because the platform will give them automation, it gives them high availability, it gives them scalability, and they go, it works, and they get cost-effectiveness. So we're seeing a lot of that because you can address a lot of your portfolio. >> Oh, Brian, it's the typical maturation that we've seen. The use cases that put on stage, keep planes in the air, power the largest infrastructure, monitor fire alarms, websites, it's like, oh, this is same thing we saw in virtualization in every kind of way that's like, oh, containers run applications. (chuckles) >> Right. >> Right? >> Jim: Have you seen a big push by your customers or in the ecosystem to containerize more of the deep learning and artificial intelligence toolkits, like TensorFlow or Theano? Is that, with your customers, is that a big priority rate now or going forward? >> Yeah, so, I think the big data space was always an area that was kind of on the fence if it made sense to, in container, do you need an abstraction layer, do you want to be closer to it? We're starting to see more and more, so for example, Google with TensorFlow. Google, huge proponent of containers and Kubernetes. They're doing a lot of work to make that happen. We've been doing a lot of work with the Spark community to make Spark work really well in containers, and it becomes an issue of can you manage the resources? The container schedulers do that great, and then, can you manage getting access to the data, and we're seeing more and more storage become container-native and people understanding how that works, so yeah, the breadth of what you can do around containers has gotten very, very large. >> Yeah, any difference in how your customers look at it, whether they're doing on-premises or public cloud, or do things like Docker and Kubernetes make that not matter as much? >> I think what they, so, I joke all the time, none of our customers have a container problem. None of them have a, none of them wake up in the morning and say, "That's my problem," right? What they're saying more and more is, "I know I want to, I'd like to start getting away "from maybe owning data centers, "or by destiny, being data centers. "I need to leverage public clouds, multiple, plural," and they're sort of saying, "Look, I get the benefit of what they do, "but there's still operational differences, "what Azure does, what AWS does. "I would like some level of consistency," and so that's where the OpenShift conversation really comes into play. The operational model I can build with OpenShift as a platform is the same thing I can run on top of Azure, on top of AWS, on top of Google, and we're seeing more and more of our deals, our customers who say, "That's what it's going to look like. "Help us make that work," and today, they do it on a basic level. Somebody like Volvo, for example, some in their data center, some in AWS, and then, more and more, they go, "Go contribute upstream in Kubernetes, "and federate this stuff." Make it look more consistent, make it look more operationally consistent, and that's coming in the next version of Kubernetes, and so forth, so, that shift is happening, but what they want is sort of this consistency. The Kubernetes part, the Docker part, they're sort of details under the covers, but it does provide them a level of portability that's really important. >> All right, Brian, want to give you the final word. Red Hat has got Red Hat Summit coming up, OpenStack and Jim Whitehurst is going to be given, I think, the day one keynote there. Talk a little bit of Red Hat's presence here at the show, what we can expect to see in this space from Red Hat throughout the year. >> Yeah, so I think, from us here, and what you'll see at Red Hat Summit, like, containers are front and center. Obviously, it's an extension of Linux, but it's, we're becoming a company that's more about how to do applications faster, how to modernize applications, how to do them across multiple clouds, and it's this whole idea that those things that used to be really hard, you do them in software now, and the community is helping to fix those, so big presence here. Again, we've got a ton of customers who use Docker as a packaging format, run their containers, open, at Red Hat Summit, we're going to have 25-plus production OpenShift customers that you want to talk about running governments, running airplanes, running, like, they're going to talk about that stuff, so that part, we're really excited about. It's fun, it's fun at this point. They don't, our customers don't want to talk about containers. They want to talk about this digital transformation stuff, and that is making the technology industry fun again. >> All right, so that was my last question for Brian Gracely with Red Hat. My last question for Brian Gracely of the Cloudcast is, I haven't heard Serverless mentioned yet this week. What's wrong? >> I know, that's a good, it's a good question. The Serverless stuff's taking off two weeks from now, probably, at the same, no, down the street. Serverlessconf is happening. >> Stu: Is that part of OSCON then, or? >> No, it's its own event now. >> It's own event. >> Serverless complement to their own event. They'll probably get five, 600 people. We're seeing it as another way of looking at applications. It's functions, containerize them, write your own code, and you'll see us, you'll see what we're doing around OpenShift begin to incorporate that, sort of functions as a server, Serverless stuff, very, very soon, and around Boston timeframe. >> All right, well, Brian, always great to talk to you, and glad I can bring it to the audience, so Brian Gracely with Red Hat. We'll be back with lots more coverage here, DockerCon 2017. You're watching theCUBE. 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