hey welcome back to los angeles thecube is live here at kubecon cloud native con 2021 we're so excited to be here in person lisa martin with dave nicholson and we are here with priyanka sharma the executive director of cnc at prayanka welcome to the program thank you so much for having me first of all congratulations on doing an event in person in such a safe clean way i was really impressed when i walked in this morning was asked for my vaccination record my temperature was scanned you're proving you can do these events safely this isn't rocket science so agreed and i'm so glad you appreciate all the measures we've put in place because this is how we can do it in-person interaction is essential for us as human beings for us as professionals and so we owe it to each other to just do the right thing you know have a vaccine requirement wear your masks have these what i call the traffic light uh system where if you have a green a green band it means people can come a little closer it's okay red means please at least six feet of distance and these things go a long way in making an event successful in times like this they do i love that when i saw that mine keeps falling off i'm cold so it keeps falling i'm green just so you know i know you're green what about you i'm green here you can can i have yours that's my favorite and you know you fell off again you had um the three folks that came up who were uh like uh co-chairs co-chairs yeah yeah and uh and they did almost a little almost a little skit yes that on the surface people could say well that's ridiculous and it's like no it's not it's giving everybody the guidelines so that everyone can be comfortable because when i see your green wristband i understand that you are comfortable because i don't want to accidentally reach out to give you a fist bump when you might be particularly of course yeah yeah so no visual cues make it easy yes yeah yeah very very easy very comfortable talk about the energy at the event this is the second full day tina was standing room only yesterday give us an overview of the energy and some of the things that are happening since you can't replicate those hallway networking conversations on video conference i know exactly what you mean man it is so lovely to be in person to meet people and you know for those who are comfortable there's like the fist bumps and the hugs and the big smiles and that energy i haven't seen it in almost two years um and even you know just standing on stage as i was telling you folks uh off camera i've been in this role for over a year and a close to a year and a half i've done three cube cons already but this was my first in person and being on that stage experiencing the energy of the people in that room like when i asked everyone during my keynote i was like are you all proud to be team cloud native and i got a resounding yes back from the audience that's what i'm talking about yeah you know it was amazing what's some of the news that's breaking lots of stuff going on obviously some first one in person in almost two years but talk to me about some of the the news that's breaking here at the event yes so so much new stuff to share um from our side on cncf our journey has been very much about being celebrating our culture and welcoming more and more people into it so that we can have more folks in team cloud native to take various jobs to find fulfillment and all those great things right and all of our announcements are around that theme of people finding a place here people paying it forward in this community and building the culture the first one i would like to share is the announcement of the kubernetes and cloud native associate certification so this is an exam that is going to go live end of the year so people sign up apparently the beta signups went away like this after i announced it so it was really cool wow popular by demanding yeah very very popular and it's it's an exam for folks who are brand new to cloud native and it the studying for it you'll go through you know the fun fundamentals of kubernetes what is the cncf landscape what are the key projects and ultimately you will actually deploy an application using coop cuddle commands and it's such a great primer so so how brand new can someone be when you when you say brand new are you talking about someone who already has a phd in computer science but hasn't done anything in the kubernetes space tell me how brand new can you be uh-huh that's a very good question and it is literally you can come with zero knowledge you would of course have to study for the exam and like go through that journey but the idea is that it is the gateway and so it is possible you're a phd in computer science but you've studied some esoteric part of computer science that's very unconnected to what we do sure go ahead and take it but maybe most likely you would like the more advanced certifications better but if you're let's say a marketer looking to break into the cloud native industry this is the move take this exam and suddenly all these employers you speak their language they'll be impressed that you took it and it's it's an opportunity to advance your career the oh community is huge i was looking at the website the other day 138 000 contributors yes from more than 177 countries 186 is the latest number 186 awesome 289 plus million lines of code written this community is really so productive and so prolific and it's great that you're offering more folks that don't have the background like you were saying to be able to get in and get started absolutely it's our whole thing of bring in more people because as you all probably know there's so much demand for cloud native skill sets across job functions so that's why we're here to help with yeah i you know i i want to double click on this as we say because you hear the word inclusive associated with this whole community so much um you're talking about something that is a certification yeah a marketer okay fine but we're really talking about anyone who has the drive to potentially completely transform their lives yes and in this age where things can be done remotely you don't necessarily have to live in silicon valley or cambridge massachusetts to do this or in one of the other global centers of technology anywhere yeah so that's the that's the kind of energy that's part of this that isn't a part of any large industry focused conference because you really are making opportunities for people of all backgrounds to change their lives so i don't know i don't am i extending a a virtual thank you from all of those people whose lives have been changed and will be changed in the future maybe i am but so but talk about inclusiveness in in you know from from other perspectives yes i think that you know talent drive skills none of these are exclusive to a certain zip code you know people everywhere have great qualities and deserve chances and why shouldn't they be part of a community that as you said is especially inclusive feels especially nice to be a part of and that's what i exhorted the community to do in my keynote yesterday which is that our ranks will grow and we should go out of our way to make sure our ranks grow and we do that by shining a light on our culture telling people to join in lending a hand and you know letting people's personalities shine even when they'll be different from who we are whether in terms of job function or skill set whatever and i think that's the top level um paradigm that we want to have right where we are always welcoming people when we think of inclusiveness it is you know there is certifications like kcna did do a great job there are also efforts that we must always be doing so something that we work on constantly consistently is contributor strategy where we're working on creating ladders and pathways for folks to become open source contributors it is known now that open source contributions lead to job advancement in your career right and so the whole goal is bring people in not just to hang out not just to talk but to actually grow and actually kubecon cloudnativecon is a great example of another little thing we do which is uh we uh award uh underrepresented minorities and people who are who need need-based funds scholarships to attend nice yeah and it's changed one thousand 1518 lives already and we actually uh in uh in this event have announced that we are renaming the scholarship to the dan khan scholarship fund um i i do you folks know dan yes did yeah so dan he breathed life into team cloud native right he built this organization to have the impact that it does today and all the while he was relentlessly focused on diversity equity inclusion so it was it was just like the idea came from within the team and the minute someone said it it just struck a chord with all of us yeah we're like we're doing this no question and it was one of the fastest decisions we've ever made i saw uh some results of a dei micro survey on the website where 75 percent of respondents say this community is becoming more inclusive there's obviously work to go but as a female in technology you feel that you see that as well yes i think i'm very proud of that survey that we did by the way because it's our way we're going to keep doing it it's our way to keep a pulse on the ecosystem because you can keep doing initiatives right but if people are not feeling great then who cares and so um but yes i think dei is a journey if there is no destination right always we have to be thinking harder trying harder to you know i think for example something cncf's done a great job is identifying particularly gender diverse folks who are in the community and maybe could deserve a role of high responsibility so i'm really proud that our technical oversight committee which is our really the top technical people in the ecosystem who desi decide project stuff they are led by a woman there's many women on that and it's they're all very exemplary awesome technologists and so i think um the diversity survey gives us like a hint into like the things people do like and i mean the fact remains we need to do more to source more people to come into the ecosystem we need to always be changing and evolving with the needs of the community right as i mentioned the community is 138 000 strong 6.8 million plus contributions so far you can imagine by opening that dei door just the thought diversity that comes in alone and the number of projects that will come from folks that just come in with a different mindset oh 100 we are already seeing that um we started off as folks who had you know lots of projects from the great big tech companies people who had web scale problems as i call it and that was great but in recent years the end users who are initially just consuming this technology and that too slowly are now hook line and sinker in and we have like argo cd came from intuit which is an end user uh backstage came from spotify which is an end user so this trend is growing and the diversity as you said is continuing yeah i i'm particularly interested in the dynamic where you have people who have their day job if you will where their employer is absolutely 100 encouraging them to participate in the community to develop things that will not only help the employer and that mission but also building uh solutions for everyone and providing enrichment for the for the person and and i i'm i'm going to make a little bit of a prediction i want to get your thoughts on this i think that um one of the silver linings of what we've been through in the pandemic having a lot of people at home having that relationship with your primary employer be just a little bit different and just a little bit more removed i think everyone is realizing that you know what um we all need a passion play to be a part of in addition to whatever we're doing to put bread on the table in the immediate future and so i i think that i want to hear your thoughts there's going to be an explosion in contributions from people and hopefully a lot more openness on the part of employers to let people dedicate their time to this do you do you see that do you think that yes i think i think you're really on to something here um something i mentioned in my keynote right was this conversation i've had with so many that we in this community our identity is cloud native first so we're folks who are in team cloud native before we are working at insert company name you know um google at t spotify whatever it's not a dig on the company it's actually a celebration of those companies because they are liking the developments that happen in open source they are appreciating the value these people are creating and they're employing them so absolutely there is this ongoing trend of folks seeing great value in folks who understand this cloud native projects in particular and of course right because we have been such a great place for industry collaboration lots of vendors have great products make lots of money on these projects and that's as it should be and so the value of the people contributing to these projects is very high and it will only continue to grow i imagine so so here we are in los angeles at kubecon cloud native con 21 what's what's next well uh the good news is this was the first of many to come hybrid events in person plus virtual and the next one is happening in end of may in valencia for europe 22. valencia spain and i have heard beautiful weather very nice people amazing food so just for that that alone is worth registration yes i know right it's going to be amazing i'm so excited and i hope i will see you folks there sign me up i've never been to spain i'm there me too let's do it excited let's do it for our spanish-speaking uh viewers i will say claroque he you can't you do you can do it all you can speak spanish on the queue we can have something honestly i'm impressed i'm impressed i can't i can't do that any and you donated your green card so thank you so much so nice congratulations on the event thank you uh for growing the community for and growing the diversity of it and for the the projects that are going on now and we're sure many more to come we look forward to seeing you in valencia in may thank you so much see you in valencia all right we'll see you there for dave nicholson i'm lisa martin we are live in los angeles the cube is covering kubecon and cloudnativecon at 21. stick around we'll be back after a short break with our next guest

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three here, theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Justin Warren here to break down the action. Justin Warren, as you know, is Guest Analyst for us at many events, Chief Analyst at PivotNine, coming all back over here again, to break it down. So we're going to dissect what's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This is, some say, me, the last stand to stop Amazon. Justin, good to see you. >> Good to see you as well, man. Stu, my first question is, as the show winds down, day three, a lot of people have left, all the big execs are gone, it's kind of last day, people coming together, party was last night, so we kind of see all the action, we kind of fished this pond dry, in theCUBE here, the last couple of days. The themes are starting to emerge. What are you seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, John, 8,000 people, this is, you know, geeks that are really excited, and I mean that in the best of ways, of course. There's actually, there were people here before the show started, doing lightning talks and full day sessions. Tomorrow, there's an operative session that another 250 or 300 people will be doing Friday, so, you know, and people want to just suck the marrow out of the bone that is everything going on here, just get every ounce of knowledge here, and they are deep into this session, so, this is a great community. The question I want to ask you guys is you were at Amazon re:Invent two weeks ago. We've watched that show. I want the compare and contrast of this ecosystem and show, not just compare it to like, say, open stack, which we've been teasing apart all week, and I think there are some things we need to worry about, but a lot of good differences. But compare against the big one in the room, which is Amazon, and a big difference is Amazon is here, and they have a seat at the table, because they have to, and customers will force them there, but you know, should this worry Amazon, and how does this ecosystem compare with the Amazon ecosystem. The big thing for me is, I understand how people make money in the ecosystem of Amazon. I'm still trying to figure that out here. >> Yeah, eh, it is a different ecosystem. It does have a bit of a vibe of it could be the new re:Invent. We've had conversations over the last couple of days about-- >> Or is this the independent cloud, >> Exactly. >> You know, open ecosystem. >> It is the independent show that we've been waiting for, that we've wanted since COMDEX and Interop kind of went away, and it's all been vendor shows, and now we have an independent show where all the vendors can come and have kind of a neutral meeting place, and we can all gather together and have some common ground, which is like, that's what Kubernetes is. I've been saying over the last couple of days, Kubernetes is like the ethernet of cloud, so it's something which is an agreed standard and we can all collaborate on, and then, you never bet against ethernet. So know you can build all these other things on top of that platform, yeah. >> Just a quick note on that, right, that's Interop, and networking was at the core of that. It was basically everybody, oh, it's the chance of if we give true interoperability, maybe we can do multi-vendor and it won't all be Cisco, who dominated that market. Amazon's the same. >> Stu, this is to me, ethernet's a great example. I say TCPIP as well. Both are enabling technologies that are standardized, or actually started as de facto standards. They weren't necessarily bona fide standards. They emerged when people rallied around them. Those de facto standards, emerge and become a catalyst point for people to build on top of and around. Remember, there's still a lower level below the stack on ethernet. So you had, you know, physical data link layer in the OSI model, the grandfather of all stacks. That really changed, I think, 20 years of growth and innovation. I think Kubernetes is, exactly right, Justin, it's exactly your point. I see that as well, that it's not so much Kubernetes is going to be the be all end all. It's what it enables, and I think the innovations on top of Kubernetes, and underneath Kubernetes, take the holy trinity, I've been saying this on theCUBE now for the past year, the holy trinity of infrastructure and IT is storage compute networking, and those things are now being repurposed in a way that is highly scalable, dynamic, and resourceful for a lot of things. AI is a great example, everyone talks about AI, but storage policy, the knobs in Kubernetes can manage, and Google saying the guys of Kubernetes. That's one of the most underutilized aspects of Kubernetes, is the networking guys managing the knobs from below, and then app guys with servers messing maybe on the top. This is just an absolute growth engine, and the comparison to Amazon is similar, because Andy Jassy talks about builders, the right tool for the job. This is essentially the same mantra. I mean, this is tools, platforms. >> It's very similar, but with one very important difference, and around the money side of things. You don't have this massive behemoth which is going to come in, and one year you're on the keynote, and the next year we just announced a product, which completely killed your business. It's open source. That's not really going to happen. So you've got that common core of things, where there's no real competitive advantage on this stuff. So that's, you know, Linux, where's the competitive advantage on a kernel? There isn't one. So open source makes great sense for that kind of core of things that you then build upon, and then all the money is in all the innovation, all the value add that goes on top of that, and that makes a huge amount of sense to have an open source show for that. >> And I think, Stu, one of the things that we always talk about, networking in cloud, I think the concept of cloud is going to be old hat. You heard it here first on theCUBE. Because cloud is Amazon, cloud is a set of resources. When we start thinking about IoT at the edge, when you talk about moving compute to the edge, you're going to start to see mesh networks, peer to peer, and add a new kind of platform configurations that isn't necessarily cloud. It's a new thing. It's a platform, open platform, and there's going to be some incentives that are going to be designed for startups, that's economically beneficial to the new kinds of things, versus the economic incentives that Amazon might not have, to do things. So I think we're going to see emergence of new stuff. I would still say that cloud is a state of mind, it's not a location. And we here, it's CloudNativeCon. It's not just KubeCon. It's about doing things in a cloud native way, and that, like you say, it doesn't matter where it is or how it communicates together, but it's the way you operate it, it's the way it actually works in practice. It's not so much of, oh, we're going to build it here and we're going to put it in that cloud, or that cloud, or that cloud. >> And I think we've had some real clarity as to what that future of multi cloud looks like, 'cause it's not one massive cloud everywhere, it's not, oh, my applications spanning all over the place. It's we're working to solve that really tough problem of distributed architectures, and giving us ways that I shouldn't have to think about where I am spinning that up, or if I need to change vendor, not necessarily portability, you still do have some lock in, because Kubernetes is not the full stack, it's a piece of the overall platform, and while there's 75 different versions here that are all compliant, I should be able to move between them, but the devil's in the details, and there's lots of stuff that goes on top. >> Let's talk about multi cloud for a second. 'Cause you mentioned COMDEX, you talked about ethernet. At that time, during those big revolutions, the word multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-vendor was like the basis of COMDEX. We all got to play together. Multi-vendor meant choice. Today, multi cloud is just a modern version of multi-vendor. >> Exactly, it's multi-vendor, and that's what enterprises want. Enterprises are a bit wary now. We hear lots of conversation about lock in, and that comes up a lot, and it's a real thing. Enterprises are concerned, they don't want to bet on one company, and then find out that actually, it's technology, it changes, things need to be moved around. We don't want to wake up in five, six years, and then suddenly find, oh my god, I can't change anything because I'm locked into this one vendor. >> So, Justin, they say they want multi-vendor. When it came to networking, I spent years working on interoperability, and plug tests, and all these things, and at the end of the day, it was way better to get my standards plus with a single vendor than it was to try to loop them together, and then, oh, when I changed something, so hopefully the difference here is actually, we have loosely coupled services, we have APIs, so can we actually do multi-vendor, multi-cloud that doesn't stress out my team, and have, every time I want to make a change, or they make a change, it moves. The new cloud world should be, things change, you know, it changes upstream, and downstream, I get to use them. So, once again, we talk about the shiny nirvana of, oh, you know, it's serverless, and the old trinity of computer storage. I don't even need to worry about that, 'cause it'll just work, but wait, if something goes wrong, I've been talking to a bunch of vendors here, that actually, how do I get observability, and manageability, to be able to drill down, because things could still go wrong. >> Well, you heard Bloomberg, we had an end user come on, it's a very interesting point, and Dan Khan, from the executive director, well, Bloomberg's kind of a different case, but look at what Bloomberg does. The guy said to us, "I actually don't want to buy "these products and services. "I just want to pay them money "to be available to support me "when I need support." 'Cause Bloomberg has fully integrated all their support internally. I think that's a trend that we're going to see in the enterprise, where CIOs start building teams, real software chops. It might not be as big as Bloomberg, but the notion of, we're going to run our own stuff. We'll use management services where appropriate, but we're going to have a core software build strategy, and I can't wait. An SLA of four hour response time. I need like, minutes. >> And that's how, I think, where we don't have the answers yet. There are still a lot of questions that enterprises are trying to work out about how do I actually do that. So you mentioned Bloomberg, and I interviewed them a few months ago, wrote something in Forbes about them. They are a special case in that they have chosen that we're going to invest in this technology so that we have people on staff, in our company, who understand Kubernetes. Now, that's not a choice that every enterprise is going to make, but they decided that actually, this technology, this software is so important to our business, to where we get all the value for our business that we need to invest in that technology. And I think a lot of enterprises are realizing that, actually, outsourcing everything to one vendor, and then giving all of your innovation engine to someone else, and they're realizing that was a mistake. Now, they're trying to figure out, okay, what do we bring in house, what do we do ourselves, what do we get vendors to do, which technologies do we use for what particular value creation, and that complexity, that decision making process, that's what we haven't quite worked out yet, and that's where I think there's a lot of value in the ecosystem, with service providers who can provide advice on here is how you should do it, based on what you need to do. >> That's a great point. Stu, I want you to comment on that. Let's refine this for a second, 'cause the people who actually spend the money, or the people re-imagining IT infrastructure, IT applications. The CIO, I've interviewed the VP of Advanced Technology at Proctor and Gamble, and he told me, when he came in, he came from Coca Cola, he's been an old IT guy, he says, look, we outsourced everything to the point where we're anemic. We got a couple of storage guys, they're pushing buttons, they're jumping on, calling the vendors, they outsource everything. He says they had no ability to create a competitive advantage for the business, and what they moved quickly to was to bring talent in to be builders, to be in house. So now you have that trend happening in the modern CIO, CXO kind of roles. Now you have to say, okay, I got teams here. How do I get the investments deployed, how do I go to this ecosystem here with all these tools, all these capabilities, how do I invest, how do I build out. >> Look, I think Kelsey Hightower had a great point when we interviewed him this week. It is a huge opportunity for managed services, because like we talked about, the Amazon, or even the ecosystem, how do I keep up with all of this, and the answer is, you don't. You need to be able to have people, whether it's system integrators, or partners that are going to help that. You know, look, Amazon gets criticized for not being deeper in open source. Well, they use a lot of open source and they deliver those services, and they make it easy. Frictionless is something we talked about for many years as being the thing. The enterprise wants to be able to spend money and just go do it, because they don't have a team to pitch these. Even somebody like Bloomberg, or some of these really big companies I love, talking, you've got Apple, and Nordstrom, and some really interesting, oh, by the way, and they're all hiring. Whether or not they're actually using Kubernetes, they cannot confirm or deny, but you know, we know how that goes. >> Hold on, first, let's unpack the end user piece here, okay? Amazon is pushing 5,000 reference-able customers. Okay, it's not about the Amazon question. End users here, how many reference-able customers are here? What are they actually, Uber's here, they're hiring. They might have some Kubernetes stuff in the background. Sure, they probably do. But actually, what does the end user adoption really look like? I mean... >> It's still early, but again, a difference between this show and Amazon re:Invent. How many end customers have a booth at re:Invent? Compared to here, where we have people, end customers who are here mostly to try to hire talent. They have booths. >> Kudos to the CNCF. They've got 80 end users participating. There are a lot of users here. This is not the vendor fest that we see at some shows when they get big. I hear they're not seeking the vendors. The vendors that I talked to were happy because they are the users here, and they're excited. Before we go, John, there's a couple kinks in the armors and things we need to worry about. The two, if I look at service meshes, and I look at serverless as a huge threat. One of the things I wanted to look at coming in was I'd heard a lot of talk about Knative, and I think Knative is great, but it is not, you know, Lambda is the defacto standard, just like S3 was before. Lambda is this, and Knative has absolutely nothing to do with Lambda and does not connect with it. It is the difference between serverless and functions, and so, all the AWS functions and all the Azure functions have nothing to do with Knative. For the people that looked at OpenWhisk and all these other options, Knative seems a good way to pull, they've done a re-spin of what's happening there, and it's moving things down the line. Once again, as Kelsey said, if we look at serverless as a spectrum, which many of the hardcore serverless people will debate and argue, and be like, that's not real, serverless, well, just like we said, there is only one real cloud, and it was Amazon. We know that's not the case. It will be a spectrum, we want to meet customers where they are. So, Knative, good news, but the elephant in the room is that AWS and Azure are where all of the serverless really happens, and therefore, there is a big air gap between them. Justin, service mesh is something I know you've been looking at. Give it to us the good, bad, and the ugly. >> Service mesh is really, really early. So, we're at that part where there's a diversity of innovation going on. There's about 12, or at least 12 different companies here at the show, who are all doing something with service mesh. They're all trying to sell you a different solution. This is what happens with technology. A new technology gets created, and we have this flurry of all these startups, who are all trying different things. And this is the destructive force of capitalism. Not all of them are going to succeed, but we have to have them all out there in the market, because at the moment, it's too early to figure out, okay, well, it's definitely going to be that one. If we knew that one, then I'd be putting all of my money behind that one company today. >> Last year, Justin, all the talk was about SDO. I've heard a lot of talk about SDO, but it hasn't all been good. >> No, that's the thing. So we've had a year now, and last year was definitely, hey, SDO is like, the service mesh. Like, not so much. Envoy seems to be the common ground that people are actively using. That's what most people are building on top of. So it looks like Envoy's going to be that underlayer of everything else. But in terms of how you actually use service mesh, it's still very early, and people are trying to figure out how to do I use this quite complex technology in practice? And as people use it more, as we get more adoption, then we'll start to see that one or two of the methods and the approaches will win out over all of the others, and that's where we can expect to see, well, I have an anointed winner. That will then win out, because it's useful, because it's functional, because end users want to do it that way. >> And Envoy, by the way, had traction. They had a sold out EnvoyCon. On the first day, 350 people, Lyft is driving that, and they're just heads down, solving problems. I think that seems to be the formula for some of the successful products, where you take away all the window dressing and the hype. It comes down to who's solving what problems. >> And that's the thing with open source. You can't just throw a whole bunch of marketing dollars at it to make it succeed. If end users don't like the code, and they don't use it, then it won't work. >> John, I want you to give us the word on the open source business model. We watched in the last year, Red Hat bought CoreOS for 250 million, then they were acquired by IBM for 34 billion, pending final, and all that stuff and everything, and then, reading through the VMware, SCC filing $550 million for Heptio. You know, big, big dollars, so, is open source just getting a lot of customers, and they get acquired by the big guys? What's the take? >> I think it's interesting. First of all, Red Hat might not like what I'm about to say, but I'll just say it. I think there was a steal with CoreOS. If you look at what Heptio got for valuation, CoreOS was an absolute steal. The team was phenomenal, they were doing some amazing work. At that time of the acquisition, the debate of how to make money dominated versus just getting behind the technology, and I think CoreOS was a fantastic team, and they had the right tracking. You can see what's happening now with now part of the Red Hat. So, Red Hat got a massive lift on that, so I think, kudos to Red Hat for taking that up the table at that time. Great acquisition, I think that helped them propel, and now show that to IBM that there's real value there. Now, I think open source as a business model is interesting because it's changing, right? You now have a new generation of builders and developers coming in. Open source has to evolve, and I think the CNCF I think is a cutting edge experiment or Petri dish of how to stay true to open source principles, and still nurture and enable a downstream impact for the commercialization. I think it's an opportunity, but it's also one of their biggest challenges, because if this is COMDEX, COMDEX is an open source. It's hawking wares, right? So it's a different business model. So, this is going to be a very interesting test in the industry to see how the current open source momentum, which is looking really strong right now, how that can interplay with commercialization, because certainly, the money's there, the value's there, and if we can get these value spots identified, the white spaces for startups, and let the big guys also play as well, it's going to be a very interesting landscape, it's certainly dynamic. I don't have the answers, but my gut's telling me that a whole new level of sets of services and platforms are going to be composed around these services, and I think it's all going to be driven by open source, that's clear. How it shapes out, valuations and the talent buys, the momentum, market buy, we'll be watching, I don't know. >> Yeah, it's exciting times. We're here at the beginnings of what I hope is going to be this massive new ecosystem, and we get to watch it grow, we get to watch it change. It's a great place to be. >> All I can say, Stu, is I wish I was 25 years old again, right now, because for young entrepreneurs, and young tech folks, this is probably one of the most exciting times, because you have real computer science, and dormant computer science, now re-energized with cloud computing scale. It's just like-- >> John, they don't appreciate what they had, you know. They don't know what it was like to have a computer that wasn't actually connected to things, let alone what we had. >> I used to build my own graphics libraries, I used to walk to school in bare feet in the snow. It's so hard. It's so easy now. >> Creating ones and zeroes-- >> Where's my token ring? >> Creating ones and zeroes by banging rocks together. >> It's so easy now. You guys got it made. You have no idea. Great stuff, Stu, this is great analysis, and I think, again, KubeCon is the beginning, with Cloud Native, this is just a small signal, I think. I think there's going to be a COMDEX moment soon, unless this thing just blows up, which I don't think is going to happen. >> I mean, look, last thing, John, I want to big thank to the Linux Foundation, CNCF, for working with us. We've been neighbors in the early days, great partnership, this community. They've got a great media section. All of friends over here, that are creating a lot of con, working really hard. The amount of work that goes through, and as we had the people from CNCF talking. They've got a core team, but it's people that volunteer, and we were a community too, and all our sponsors, John. >> Yeah, thanks to the community, and again, one more final point is that, this market, Justin, as you know, we all cover it, is in a learning mode. There's a lot of education oriented stuff that people are interested in. You've got Alex Williams over at New Stack, DevOps.com, TFiR over there, everyone's up in media out there. There is a thirst for content, there's a thirst for community learning. The sessions are packed. I mean, the hallways are interesting. You see people huddling, and I overhear the conversations. They're not talking about what party to go to, they're talking about how to implement a Kubernetes cluster, so this, really people working on and off the court here, so to speak. So, it's been great coverage. So, day three, breaking it down. I'm John Furrier, Justin Warren, Stu Miniman, back with more coverage, day three, after the short break. (techno music)