>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. Welcome to the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. The virtual version. I'm Lisa Martin here with the guests from Bumi. Please welcome Ed Makowski, its head of product of the program and nice to see you today >>I see you, Lisa. >>So here we are in a very socially distant world. But I know a lot about movie, and that movie is really all about connecting people with what they want now. So talk to me before we dig into kind of what's going on with AWS. What's the landscape? That movie like in this year that has had so much change? >>So things have been going really well for us business wise, I think you know, as we've come through this pandemic or we continue to work through the pandemic, we're seeing a lot of our customers accelerating their their migration to the cloud acceleration, accelerating their modernization journeys. Um, in fact, we see the 30% uptick and usage in our platform. You know, in the last several months, as as people just continue to double down on automating, integrating their systems, working through integrated experiences. Toe Really like you said put put data in the hands of the users, the data that they're looking for on the work clothes that they're looking to automate. They're accomplishing that our platform. So things have been good. >>That's good in a year of such uncertainty. So as we kind of look at, you know, you talked about it. We've been talking about it for months now. This acceleration of the digital journey, that Cove it is really catalyzing. Let's get specific with from an integrated experience perspective, I think we're all as consumers, even Mawr demanding oven integrated experience. Now more than ever. How are you working with customers To help them achieve that? >>Sure. So So the way we look at the world through our lenses, data collectivity and user engagement, or are critical pieces to a cloud modernization or a cloud migration journey. So, just like in life, people make connections early on, and as they work through life, they leverage those connections to make advancements, that sort of thing. I did an interview actually a couple of weeks ago with an A list celebrity, where he gave us a bunch of feedback around connectivity where he talked about early on in his life. He made connections that that provided him value later in his career. We think of the same thing for a business, right? If you think about as a business, your customers, your employees, urine users, it's important to take your most strategic asset, which is your data, and and put that toe work for you and make connections with those users, employees, partners, etcetera, eso we look at those is integrated experiences, right, and we we offer a platform that, in a low code way, allows the business to make those connections with users in those integrated experiences. >>Love to know who the A list celebrity was, but I won't ask you to develop that information because we look at that, you know, nowadays we had this massive shift in the last eight months or so where I think as consumers we've been everything's been on demand for a while. We're used to getting what we want. And in the business world there was a big shift and trying to figure out companies well known companies, you know, filing for Chapter 11 and trying to figure out How do we pivot? Not just once, but it's a Siris of pivots, right? So talk to me about From From an integrated experiences perspective, any customers that you kind of think in particular really, really highlight what Bhumi is doing there to allow these customers to have connected integrated experience while you're helping those customers modernized and transform their businesses. >>Yeah, I mean, I could talk to a couple of examples where you know, when when the pandemic hit in the coven situation hit, we had a lot of, you know, I think the world saw there were a lot of mom and pop shops downtown Main Street where they were trying to collect information from industry from from their governments and industries. And they were trying to really relay that information out to, um, their customers and users. And most of them, those small businesses, uh, weren't I t enabled in any way, shape or form, and we tried to figure out what is the business can we do to help solve some of these challenges and a booming for good initiative? And we put out a solution called answers on demand that we gave out to free for free and within I believe it was two weeks. We had only over 2500, you know, customers from all different shops around the country that that registered and basically were ableto themselves stand up a frequently asked question. Ah, site within their Web page chatbots that they were embedded. They were able to bed in the Web page on a low code way, and that was kind of one example. Another from an enterprise example, is you think of things like, Hey, a new employee starts and typically they can walk in the first day. People hand them forms, they walk around, they meet with different departments. How do I get myself on boarded to an organization? Well, in the world today, everybody expects things to be on their mobile. They expect things to be done immediately, and they're not gonna goto 10 different APs in order to onboard themselves to go get swag or sign themselves up for their payroll, etcetera. That's a classic, you know, integrated integrated experiences use case that we help with where it's Hey, we can help with integrating those systems in the back end and provide an integrated experience to your new employees that come on board so they can walk through and be up and running within your company very quickly in a remote way. So we offer all the tooling that businesses can customize. Those make them look like they're, you know, they're color schemes of their business. So on and so forth create custom work flows all again in a low code way because we focus on time to value. It's about getting something done very quickly versus along I t projects That's going to take, you know, 23 years. >>Yeah, I remember. I think it was booming world last year where Chris, your CEO, was talking about, uh, the on boarding experience when he started at Bumi and how massively transformed that is. But to your point right now, there's so many things that we don't have time for. And so when there's obstacles in our way or processes or more convoluted, it just makes everything you know, not function well together or allow customers really maximize their investments in particular technologies. I wanted to get your take on Speaking of maximizing investments, How does booming help have you worked with partner with AWS to help your customers maximize their investments in AWS is technology and services. Sure >>so So we you know, we built our platform first and foremost on top of the AWS platform. So we sit there natively and we take advantage of all of a W s S s services. Behind the scene seems to offer secure platform that customers can work in from a loco development environment. From there you can take advantage. You can take your Bumi integrations and you can run them within three a w your own A w s environment if you'd like to. So we've actually launched a ah Bumi Quick start that allows you to Okay, quickly deploy a run time that spends up in the AWS cloud so you can run your workloads there in a secure way. If you've got your own security set up, you can run within that domain versus going within boonies cloud if you'd like. We're also about to release an elastic version of that That's kubernetes base so that you could, you know, scale that up and down and take advantage of your AWS. Resource is not in a fixed way. But Maurin, a survivalist type capacity. We also have data catalog and prep capabilities now, which we didn't have last year. But we have We've added these so that you can explore your AWS endpoints. You can explore any business and points that you have and kind of look at what data you have that you can, you know, harvest thio, pull together and and offer that make that available to your customers and users. You can run all of that in your AWS environment as well. We put >>a >>bunch of focus and adventure oven architectures so as a you know, as a classic integration scenario, a lot of people focus on pub sub patterns, those types of things. So we're we released connectivity to event bridge, sqs, etcetera. We also support connectivity to red shift so you can handle data warehousing scenarios. So and a lot of investment in the AWS ecosystem in the last year and a half to two years, and we continue, you know, we're going to continue doing that. We're just kind of at the beginning of that. So >>Bumi has over 12,000 customers ranging from, you know, the big guys, nonprofits like American Cancer Society, etcetera. How do you work with customers as head of product toe help them influence the road back to be able to take in the information that they need to. For example, we wanna we wanna be ableto work with me and really modernized but also maximize or a W s investment. What is that customer feedback loop like? >>Sure, So we've got within booming. We have a customer success team that focuses on all of those customers and different tiers. Verticals, um, you know, different horizontal plays, etcetera. But we have success. People that look out, you know, for our customers meet with them on a regular basis. They bring a lot of that feedback back into product. I'm an executive sponsor for a number of our customers where I meet with them directly to understand the projects, use cases. What are they trying to achieve and take? That is input, but but very specifically, we do quarterly webinars for our customers where we get each of our product managers, including myself, do a two hour session where we go through every single detail of here is what we are expecting ourselves that delivered to you as a customer over the next year, and that gives our customers the opportunity to see all those details. We published them online publicly. We then allow them to come back through direct relationships with product or customer success. To request these enhancements. We score them, we go through. We do commit a tely east. 25% of our roadmap to customers specific requests. Um, you know, even the 75% other piece of the road map we're looking at what we feel is the best interest of our customers and what we want to take them in an innovative way. But like I said, the 25% are direct commitment to Hey, customer wants X Y Z feature will put that in the 25% >>That's he, especially right now to be able to be able to. I don't want to be reactive because we often use that as a bad term. But be able to pivot quickly and and take that information in and make the changes needed that will benefit countless others if we go back to integrated experiences, you know, here we are at this virtual aws reinvent. We're so used to being surrounded in Vegas by 45,000 people. But talk to me about how Bhumi is helping AWS customers with their integrated experiences. What are some of the things that you guys are really excited about that you're enabling now? >>So with an integrated experience, you know, again, I go back to the three things that any customer AWS customer specifically need thio think about in order to create an ingrate experience. So data readiness is the first piece. So with a W s, you'll be spinning up a number of the services. You'll be putting data in the cloud so on and so forth. But you need to make sure that that data is of high quality. Um, it's secure. It's understood something like, you know, 60 to 70% of data that you haven't enterprises is unknown, and we help solve some of those challenges through our catalog and prepping tools. So even if you're moving a bunch of your processes and data applications into the cloud, we can help customers with data readiness and making sure it's security of high quality. The second piece is pervasive connectivity. So it is about connecting all of your data sources. So we do have an open platform. You have all your AWS services that we can help you connect to get data from those sources or or transfer them to those sources. But we also allow you to extend out into on Prem or other clouds as well. So as much as we love and work with a W s, we do understand that people need to move things into the cloud out of the cloud, etcetera. You know, we help with all of those connectivity challenges that an organization may face. Uh and then the third is that user engagement engagement piece So you could move data all around all you want. You can understand your data, but unless you're putting it in the hands of the user and allowing them to act on that data in some way, shape or form the tools we have, you know, around workflow and building those in a low code way, you could do all of this in a, you know, a unified platform that we have that you can go in and building a low code way. You don't have to be a pure hardcore Java developer to get things done. We focus on time to value. So you can. You know, we have stories of customers building their first set of integrations or work flows and, you know, minutes or a couple of hours versus some of our competitors who take days, weeks or months. >>So from a local perspective, something I'm just curious about, that's kind of be a facilitator of during the last, you know, eight months of things changing and customers not being able suddenly to get into their data centers air on site, talk to me a little bit about some of the things maybe even anecdotally, that you've heard about Bhumi Loco development platform being facilitator of people that couldn't get to a data center. >>Yeah, so I mean, all of the development even before covert, all all loco development that you did for Bumi was in a Web browser. We've always been that right. So we have that capability. And then from a run time, I was talking earlier about how you can run in a ws cloud. But you can also set your runtime behind a firewall. If it is at a facility, you can put it in. You know, any locations around the world. So when the pandemic hit and folks started needing to work remotely, it was kind of a non event for many of our developer, our local developers, because they can now access the browser from home and still access. All those resource is whether it's on site in a W s or wherever they were then forced to Okay, The rest of the business is saying we need to make data available. We need to actually now put processes in place. And and Bumi became an asset to say, Wait a minute. It's not about just integration behind the scenes, that's plumbing that nobody sees. Our users started becoming heroes in their business by standing up work flows and saying I can quickly because it's low code. Oh, you need to collect information about, you know, in some cases, you know, citizen information that they used to go to. You know, I don't know that I could talk about this government, but citizens used have to go into a building in order to fill out forms and whatnot. We need to collect data live. How can I do that? Okay. This government now just use boom me to start posting these on their website. These work flows in a secure way. You know, that's just, um, examples. I talked about answers on demand before, but but we've seen this pivot of user engagement Mawr out of, you know, bringing middleware and integration out of the shadows of I t into solving real problems as people are now this first around the world at home. So >>solving your problems and probably helping a lot of businesses not just survive the last few months and forward but thrive as well as theirs. We know some things from this will be permanent. Let's question to you just can you give us a sneak peek into some of the solutions and the initiatives that Booby and AWS are working on together? Yes. >>So I talked a little bit about this before, so we are in Advanced Tech Partner were a public sector partner. We run our platform on AWS again, so we continue to work on how we can keep expanding and taking advantage of A W S two services To make things more scalable. Onda were more and more secure. It's always a top priority given the shift to the cloud and a W s is helping us with those we have are quick starts that we're working on again to make things quicker and easier for people to stand up integration workloads in AWS catalog and prep again. All of the connectivity that we have to things like event bridge, sqs Red shift, etcetera. Um, you know, those are all the things we're collaborating on with them. And again through the next year, we'll continue to keep focusing on more and more to just make running your booming environment in AWS more and more seamless. >>Seamless. I'll take it well and thank you so much for sharing what's going on with Louis and AWS in this virtual event. We appreciate your time. >>Yeah. Thank you so much. >>Bread. McCaskey. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 A virtual edition

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante cios in the most recent september etr spending survey tell us that they expect a slight sequential improvement in q4 spending relative to q3 but still down four percent from q4 2019 so this picture is still not pretty but it's not bleak either to whit firms are adjusting to the new abnormal and are taking positive actions that can be described as a slow thawing of the deep freeze hello everyone this is dave vellante and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we're going to review fresh survey data from etr and provide our outlook for both q4 of 2020 and into 2021. now we're still holding at our four to five percent decline in tech spending for 2020 but we do see light at the end of the tunnel with some cautions specifically more than a thousand cios and it buyers have we've surveyed expect tech spending to show a slight upward trend of roughly two percent in 2021. this is off of a q4 decline of 4 relative to q4 2019 but i would put it this way a slightly less worse decline sequentially from q3 last quarter we saw a 5 decline in spending okay so generally more of the same but things seem to be improving again with caveats now in particular we'll show data that suggests technology project freezes are slowly coming back and we see remote workers returning at a fairly significant rate however executives expect nearly double the percentage of employees working remotely in the midterm and even long term than they did pre-covert that suggests that the work from home trend is not cyclical but showing signs of permanence and why not cios report that on balance productivity has been maintained or even improved during covit now of course this all has to be framed in the context of the unknowns like the fall and even winter surge what about fiscal policy there's uncertainty in the election social unrest all right so let's dig into some of the specifics of the etr data now i mentioned uh the number of respondents at over a thousand i have to say this was predominantly a us-based survey so it's it's 80 sort of bias to the u.s and but it's also weighted to the big spenders in larger organizations with a nice representation across industries so it's good data here now you can see here the slow progression of improvement relative to q3 which as i said was down five percent year-on-year with the four percent decline expected in q4 now etr is calling for a roughly four percent decline for the year you know i've been consistently in the four to five percent decline range and agree with that outlook and you can see cios are planning for a two percent uptick in 2021 as we said at the open now in our view this represents some prudent caution and i think there's probably some upside but it's a good planning assumption for the market overall in my view now let's look at some of the actions that organizations are taking and how that's changed over time you can see here that organizations they're slowly releasing that grip on tech spending overall you know still no material change in employees working from home or traveling we can see that hiring freezes are down that's that's positive in the green as our new i.t deployment freezes and a slight uptick in acceleration of new deployments now as well you see fewer companies are planning layoffs and while small the percent of companies adding head count has doubled from last quarter's you know minimal number all right so this is based on survey data at the end of the summer so it reflects that end of summer sentiment so we got to be a little bit cautious here and i think cios are you know by nature cautious on their projections of two percent up in 2021. now importantly remember this does not get us back to 20 20 19 spending levels so we may be seeing a kind of a long slow climb out of this you know tepid market maybe 2022 gets back over 2019 before we start to see sustained growth again and remember these recoveries are rarely smooth they're not straight lines so you got to expect some choppiness with you know some pockets of opportunity which we'll discuss here in this slide we're showing the top areas that respondents cited as spending priorities for q4 and into 2021 so the chart shows the ratings based on a seven-point scale and these are the top spending initiatives heading into the year end now as we've been saying for the better part of a decade cyber security is a do-over and i've joked you know if it ain't broke don't fix it well coven broke everything and cyber is an area that's seeing long-term change in my opinion endpoint security identity access management cloud security security as a service these are all trends that we're seeing as really major waves as a result of covid now it's coming at the expense of large install bases of things like traditional hardware-based firewalls and we've talked about this a lot in previous segments cloud migration is interesting and i really think it needs some interpretation i mean nobody likes to do migrations so i would suggest this includes things like i have a bunch of people answering phones and offices or i had and then overnight boom the offices are closed so i needed a cloud-based solution i didn't just lift and ship my shift my entire phone routing system you know from the office into the cloud but i probably pivoted to a cloud solution to support those work from home employees now my guess is i think that would be included in these responses i mean i do know an example of an insurance company that did migrate its claims application to the cloud during coven but this was something that they were you know planning to do pre-covered and i guess the point here is twofold again like i said migrations are hairy nobody wants to do them and i think this category really means i'm increasing my use of the cloud so i'm kind of migrating my my operations over time to the cloud all right look at collaboration no shocker here we've pounded you know zoom and webex to death analytics is really interesting we have talked extensively uh and have been covering snowflake and we pointed out that there's a new workload that has emerged in the cloud it's not just snowflake you know there are others aws redshift google with bigquery and and others but snowflake is the off the charts you know hot ipo and so we we talk a lot about it but it relates to this easy setup and access to a data layer with having you know requisite security and governance and this market is exploding adding ai on top and really doing this in the cloud so you can scale it up or down and really only pay for what you need that's a real benefit to people compare that to the traditional edw snake swallowing a basketball i got to get every new intel chip you're not dialing up down down you're over provisioning and half the time you're not using you know half most of the time you're not utilizing what you've paid for all right look at networking you know traffic patterns changed overnight with covet ddos attacks are up 25 to 40 percent uh since coven cyber attacks overall are up 400 percent this year so these all have impacts on the network machine learning and ai i talked about a little bit earlier about that but organizations are realizing that infusing ai into the application portfolio it's becoming really an imperative much more important as the automation mandate that we've talked about becomes more acute people you can't scale humans at this at the pace of technology so automation becomes much more important that of course leads us to rpa now you might think rpa should be a higher priority but i think what's happening here is i t organizations they were scrambling to plug holes in the dike rpa is somewhat more strategic and planful our data suggests that rpa remains one of the most elevated spending categories in terms of net score etr's measure of spending momentum so this means way more people are spending more than spending less in the rpa category so it really has a lot of legs in fact with the exception of container orchestration i think rpa is a sector that has the highest net score i think you'll see that in the upcoming surveys it's as high or even higher than ai i think it's higher than cloud it's just that it remember this is an it survey and a lot of the rpa stuff is going on at the business level but it had to keep the ship afloat when coveted hit which somewhat shifted priorities but but rpa remains strong now let's go back uh to the work from home trend for a moment i know it's been been played out and kind of beat on really heavily covered but i got to tell you etr was the very first on this trend it was way back in march and the data here is instructive it shows that the percentage of employees working from home prior to cor covid currently working from home the percent expected in six months and then those expected essentially permanently and this is primarily work from home versus yeah i don't work a day or two per week it's really the the five day a week i i work remotely as you can see only 16 percent of employees were working from home pre pandemic whereas more than 70 percent are at home today and cios they actually see a meaningful decline in that number over the next six months you know we'll see based on how covid comes back and you know this fall and winter surge and how will that will affect these plans but look what it does long term it settles in at like 34 percent that's double pre-covet so really a meaningful and permanent impact is expected from the isolation economy that we're in today and again why not look at this data it shows the distribution of productivity improvements so that while 23 of respondents said work from home productivity impacts were neutral nearly half i think it was 48 if you add up those bars on the right nearly half are seeing productivity improvements well less than 30 percent see a decline in productivity and you can see the etr quants they peg the average gain at between three and five percent that's pretty significant now of course not everyone can work from home if you're working at a restaurant you really you know unless you're in finance you really can't work from home but we're seeing in this digital economy with cloud and other technologies that we actually can work from pretty much anywhere in the world and many employees are going to look at work from home options as a benefit you know it was just a couple years ago remember that we were talking about companies like ibm and yahoo who mandated coming into the office i mean that was like 2017 2018 time frame well that trend is over now let me give you a quick preview of some of the other things that we're seeing and what the etr data shows now let me also say i'm just scratching the surface here etr has deep deep data cuts they have the sas platform allows you to look at the data all different ways and if you're not working with them you should be because the data gets updated so frequently every quarter there's new data there's drill down surveys and it's forward-looking so you know a lot of the survey data or a lot of the data that we use market share data and other data are sort of looking back you know you use your sales data your sales forecast that's obviously forward-looking but but the etr survey data can actually give an observation space outside of your sales force and no i'm not getting paid by etr but but it's been such a valuable resource i want to make it available and make the community aware of it all right so let's do a little speed round on on some of the the vendors of interest that we've talked about in the last several segments last couple years actually many years decade anyway start with aws aws continues to be strong but they they have less momentum than microsoft this is sort of a recurring pattern here but aws churn is low low low not a lot of people leaving the aws platform despite what we hear about this repatriation trend data warehousing is a little bit soft whereas we see snowflake very very strong but aws share is really strong inside of large companies so cloud and teams and security are strong from microsoft whereas data warehouse and ai aren't as robust as we've seen before but but microsoft azure cloud continues to see a little bit more momentum than aws so we'll watch that next quarter for aws earnings call now google has good momentum and they're steady especially in cloud database ai and analytics we've talked a lot about how google's behind the big two but nonetheless they're showing good good momentum servicenow very low churn but they're kind of hitting the law of large numbers still super strong in large accounts but not the same red hot hat red hot momentum as we've seen in the past octa is showing continued momentum they're holding you know close to number one or that top spot in security that we talked about last time no surprise given the increased importance of identity access management that we've been talking about so much crowdstrike last survey in july they showed some softness despite a good quarter and and we we're seeing continued to sell it to deceleration in the survey now that's from extremely elevated levels but it's significantly down from where crowdstrike was at the height of the lockdown i mean we like the sector of endpoint security and crowdstrike is definitely a leader there and you know well-managed company company but you know maybe they got hit with uh with you know a quick covet injection with with a step up function that's maybe moderating somewhat you know maybe there's some competition you know vmware freezing the market with carbon black i i really don't see that i think it's it's it's you know maybe there's some survey data isn't reflective of of what what crowdstrike is seeing we're going to see in the upcoming earnings release but it's something that we're watching very closely you know two survey snapshots with crowdstrike being a little bit softer it doesn't make a sustained trend but we would have liked to seen you know a little bit stronger this this quarter the data's still coming in so we'll see sale point is one we focused on recently and we see very little negative in their numbers so they're holding solid z scalar showing pretty strong momentum and while there was some concern last survey within large organizations it seemed that might have been a survey anomaly because z scalar they had a strong quarter a good outlook and we're seeing a strong recovery in the most recent data so it also looks like z z scaler is pressuring some of palo alto network's dominance and momentum heading into the quarter so we'll pay close attention to that we've said we like palo alto networks but they're so big uh they've got some exposures but they can offset those you know and they're doing a better job in cloud with their pricing models and sort of leaning into some of the the market waves uh sale point appears to be holding serve you know heading into the fourth quarter snowflake i mean what can we say it continues to show some of the strongest spending momentum going into q4 and into 2021 no signs of slowing down they're going to have their first earnings reports coming up you know in a few months so i i got to believe they got it together and and they're going to be strong reports uipath and momentum is is slowing down a bit but existing customers keep spending with ui path and there's very few defections so it looks like their land and expand is working pretty well automation anywhere continues to be strong despite comments about the sector earlier which showed you know maybe it wasn't as high a priority some other sectors but as i said you know it's still really really strong strong in terms of momentum and automation anywhere in uipath they continue to battle it out for the the top spot within the data set within the automation data set well i should say within rpa i mean companies like pega systems have a broader automation agenda and we really like their strategy and their execution databricks you know hot company once a hot company and still hot but we're seeing a little bit of a deceleration in the survey even though new customer acquisition is quite strong put it this way databricks is strong but not the off the chart outperformer that it used to be this is how etr frame that their analysis so i want to obviously credit that to them datadog showing the most strength in the application performance management or monitoring sector whichever you prefer but generally the the net scores in that sector as we talked about last week they're not great as a sector when you compare it to other leading sectors like cloud or automation rpa as an example container orchestration you know apm is kind of you know significantly lower it's not it's not as low as some of the on-prem on-prem infrastructure or some of the on-prem software but you know given datadog's high valuation it's somewhat of a concern so keep an eye on that mongodb you know they got virtually no customer churn but they're losing some momentum in terms of net score in the survey which is something we're keeping an eye on and a big downtick in in large organization acquisitions within the data so in other words they had a lot of new acquisitions within large companies but that's down now again that could be anomalies in the data i don't want to you know go to the bank on that necessarily but that's something to watch zoom they keep growing but etr data cites a churn of actually up to seven percent due to some security concerns so that was widely reported in the press and somewhere slower velocity for zoom overall due to possible competition from microsoft teams but i tell you it has an amazing stat that etr threw out pre-cove at zoom penetration in the education vertical was 15 today it's over 80 percent wowza cisco cisco's core is weak as we've said you've seen that in their earnings numbers it's it's there's softness there but security meraki those are two areas that remain strong same kind of similar story to last quarter survey pure storage you know they're the the high flyer they're like the one-eyed man in the land of the the storage blind so storage you know not a great market we've talked about that we've seen some softness in the the data set from uh in pure storage and really often sympathy with the generally back burner storage market you know again they they still outperforming their peers but we've seen slower growth rates there in the in in the survey and that's been reflected in their earnings uh so we've been talking about that for a while really keeping an eye on on on pure they made some acquisitions trying to expand their market enough said about that rubric rubric's interesting they kind of were off the charts in a couple surveys ago and they really come off of those highs you know anecdotally we're hearing some concerns in in the market it's hard to tell the private company cohesity has overtaken rubric and spending momentum now for the second quarter in a row you know they're still not as prevalent in the data set we'd like to see more ends from cohesity remember this is sort of a random sample across multiple industries we let the or etr lets the the respondents tell them what they're buying and what they're spending on you know but because cohesity has the highest net score relative to to compares like rubric like veeam you know i even threw in when i looked at nutanix pure dell emcs vxrail those are not direct competitors but they're you know kind of quasi compares if you will new relic they're showing some concerning trends on churn and the company is way off its 2018 momentum highs in the survey and we talked about this last week some of the challenges new relic is facing but we like their tech the nrdb is purpose-built for monitoring and performance management and we feel like you know they can retain their leadership if they can can pull it together we talked about elliott management being in there so that's something that we're watching red hat is showing strength in open shift really really strong ibm you know services exposure uh it's it's not the greatest business in the world right now at the same time there's there's crosswinds there at the same time people you know need some services and they need some help there but the certainly the outsourcing business so there's you know countervailing you know crosswinds uh within ibm but openshift bright spot i i think you know when i look at at the the red hat acquisition yeah 34 billion but but it's it's pretty obvious why ibm made that move um but anyway ibm's core business continues to be under under pressure that's why red hat is such an important component which brings me to vmware vmware has been an execution machine they had vmworld this past week uh we talked last month about the strength of vmware cloud on aws and it's still strong and and vmware cloud portfolio with vmware cloud foundation and other offerings but other than tanzu vmware is in this october survey of the first first look shows some deceleration really across the board you know one potential saving grace etr shared with me is that the fortune 500 spending for vmware is stronger so maybe on a spend basis when i say stronger stronger stronger than the mean so maybe on a spend basis vmware is okay but there seems to be some potential exposure there you know we won't know for sure until late next year uh how the dell reshuffle is going to affect them but it's going to be interesting to see how dell restructures vmware's balance sheet to get its own house in order and remember dell wants to get to investment grade for its own balance sheet yet at the same time it wants to keep vmware at investment grade but the interesting thing to watch is what impact that's going to have on vmware's ability to fund its future and we're not going to know that for a long long time but you know we'll keep an eye on on those developments now dell for its part showing strength and work from home and also strengthen giant public and privates which is a bellwether in the etr data set uh you know these are huge private companies for example uh koch industries would be one you know massive private companies mars would be another example not necessarily that they're the ones responding although my guess is they are it's it's anonymous but actually etr actually knows and they can identify who those bell weathers are and it's been a it's been a predictor of performance for the last you know better part of a decade so we'll see vxrail is strong um you know servers and storage they're they're still muted relative to last year but not really down from july so you know holding on dell holding on to it to to a tepid spending outlook they got such huge exposure on-prem you know so on balance i wouldn't expect you know a barn burner out of dell you know but they got a big portfolio and they've got a lot of a lot of options there and remember they still have the the still have they have a pc uh business unlike hpe which i'll talk about in in in a moment talk about now aruba is the bright spot for hpe but servers and storage those seem to be off you know similar to dell uh but but but maybe even down further i think you know dell is kind of holding relative to last quarter survey you know down from earlier this year and certainly down from from last year uh but hpe seems to be on a steeper downward trajectory uh in storage and service from the survey you know we'll see again you know one one snapshot quarter this is not a trend to make uh but again storage looks particularly soft which is a bit of a concern and we saw that you know in hpe's numbers you know last quarter um customer acquisition is strong for nutanix but overall spending is decelerating versus a year ago levels uh we know about the 750 million dollar injection uh from from bain capital basically you know in talking to bain what essentially they're doing is they they're betting on upside in the hyper-converged marketplace it's true that from a penetration standpoint there's a long long way to go and it's also true that nutanix is shifting from a you know perpetual model you know boom by the the capex to a in an annual occurring revenue model and they kind of need a bridge of cash to sort of soften that blow we've seen companies like tableau make that transition adobe successfully made that transition splunk is in that transition now and it's you know kind of funky for them but at any rate you know within that infrastructure software and virtualization sectors you know nutanix is showing some softness but in things like storage actually nutanix looking pretty strong very strong actually so again this theme of of these crosswinds uh supporting some companies whereas they're exposed in other areas you certainly see that with large companies and and nutanix looks like it's got some momentum in some areas and you know challenges in in others okay so that's just a quick speed dating round with some of the vendor previews for the upcoming survey so i just want to summarize now and we'll wrap so we see overall tech spending off four to five percent in 2020 with a slightly less bad slightly less bad q4 sequentially relative to q3 all this is relative to last year so we see continued headwinds coming into 2021 expect low single-digit spending growth next year let's call it two percent and there are some clear pockets of growth taking advantage of what we see is a more secular work from home trend particularly in security although we're watching some of the leaders shift positions cloud despite the commentary earlier remains very very strong aws azure google red hat open shift serverless kubernetes analytic cloud databases all very very strong automation also stands out as as a a priority in what we think is the coming decade with an automation mandate and some of the themes we've talked about for a long time particularly the impact of cloud relative to on-prem you know we don't see this so-called repatriation as much of a trend as it is a bunch of fun from on-prem vendors that don't own a public cloud so just you just don't see it i mean i'm sure there are examples of oh we did something in the cloud we lifted and shifted it didn't work out we didn't change our operating model okay but the the number of successes in cloud is like many orders of magnitude you know greater than the numbers of failures on the plus side however the for the on-prem guys the hybrid and multi-cloud spaces are increasingly becoming strategic for customers so that's something that i've said for a long time particularly with multi-cloud we've kind of been waiting it's been a lot of vendor power points but that really we talked to customers now they're hedging their bets in cloud they're they're putting horses for courses in terms of workloads they're they're they're not betting their business necessarily on a single cloud and as a result they need security and governance and performance and management across clouds that's consistent so that's actually a a really reasonable and significant opportunity for a lot of the on-prem vendors and as we've said before they're probably not necessarily going to trust the cloud players the public cloud players to deliver that they're going to want somebody that's cloud agnostic okay that's it for this week remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen so please subscribe i publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey action and the analytics these guys are amazing i always appreciate the comments on my linkedin posts thank you very much you can dm me at d vallante or email me at david.volante at siliconangle.com and this is dave vellante thanks for watching this episode of cube insights powered by etr be well and we'll see you next time you

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston covering IBM thing brought to you by IBM. >>Hi everybody. We're back and this is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of the IBM think 2020 digital events experience Sriram these monotonous here he is the global managing director for government healthcare and life sciences three. Ron, thanks so much for coming on the cube. >>Great to be with you Dave. I wish we were Darren but it's, it's great to be here digitally indeed >>be good to be face to face and in San Francisco but this certainly will help our audience understand what's happening in these critical sectors. I mean you were at the heart of it. I mean these are three sectors and then there are sub sectors in there. Let's try to understand how you're communicating with your clients, what you've been doing in the near term and then I want to really try to understand, you know, what you see coming out of this, but please tell us what's been going on in your, in your world. >>You're right. I mean these sectors are keeping, keeping the engine running right now in terms of keeping society running, right? So if you look at the federal government, the state government, the local government, you look at providers of healthcare, you look at payers, we're making sure that their members are getting the, getting the advice and the service they need. You look at a life sciences companies or rapidly trying to find a cure for this, uh, for this virus. And then you look at education where, um, you know, the educational establishments are trying to work remotely and make sure that our children get the education they need. So kind of existential industries right front and center of this ninety-five, interestingly, they have 95% of IBM has, have continued to work from home and yet we are able to support the core operations of our clients. So if you look at some of the things that we've been doing over the last eight or nine weeks that we've been under this kind of lockdown, um, IBM, IBM is involved in the engine room. >>I would like to call it the engine room of many of these operations, right? Whether it just to keep a city running or a hospital running. Um, our systems, our software, our services teams are engaged in making sure that the core systems that allow those entities to function are actually operational, um, during these times. So we've had no blips. We've been able to support that. And that's a, that's a key part of it. Now, of course, there are extraordinary things we've done on top. For instance, you know, in the first two weeks after the crisis started, we used, um, a supercomputer with the department of energy that you must've heard about, uh, to narrow down over 8,000 compounds that could potentially be cures for the COBIT 19 virus and narrowed down to 80. That could be applicable, right? Um, so sharpening the time and allowing researchers not to focus on 80 compounds and stuff, 8,000 so that we can get a vaccine to market faster. >>And that's tremendous, right? I mean we've, we formed a, um, uh, you know, collaboration, uh, with, with 27 other, uh, partners, uh, that, who are all co innovating, uh, using modeling techniques, uh, to try and find a cure faster. The other end, um, you look at things like what we're doing with the state of New York, where we work for the government, uh, the duet to get 350,000 tablets with the right security software, with the right educational software so that students can continue to learn while, uh, you know, what they are, uh, when they're remote, but the right connectivity. So, um, extremes. And then of course as a backbone, you know, be using, we are starting to see real use of our AI tools, chat bots to stop it, that we have. Uh, we have allowed, uh, uh, customers to use for free. So they began answer that we can, we can consume the latest CDC advice, the latest advice from the governors and the state, and then, um, allow the technology to answer a lot of queries that are coming through, uh, with, with, uh, with citizens being worried about what, where they stand every single day. >>Yeah. So let's kind of break down some of the sectors that you follow. Um, let's start with, with government. I mean, certainly in the United States it's been all about the fiscal policy, the monetary policy, injecting cash into the system, liquidity, you know, supporting the credit markets. Certainly central banks around the world are facing, you know, similar, but somewhat different depending on their financial situations. Um, and so that's been the near term tactical focus and it actually seems to be working pretty well. Uh, you know, the stock market's any indicator, but going forward, I'm interested in your thoughts. You wrote a blog and you basically, it was a call to action to the government to really kind of reinvent its workforce, bringing in, uh, millennials. Um, and, and so my, my, my question is, how do you think the millennial workforce, you know, when we exit this thing, will embrace the government. What does the government have to do to attract millennials who want the latest and greatest technology? I mean, give us your thoughts on that. >>Well, it's an, it's a really interesting question. A couple of years ago I was talking about, uh, this is the time where governments have to have to really transform. They have to change. If you, if you go back in time compared governments to other industries, uh, governments have embraced technology, but it's been still kind of slow, incremental, right? Lots of systems of record, big massive systems that take 10 years, five years to implement. So we've implemented systems record. We've, we've started using data and analytics to kind of inform policymaking, but they tend to be sequential. And I think, uh, you know, coming back to the, the, the changing workforce, uh, what is it? By 2025, 75% of the workforce are going to be millennials, right? Um, and as they come into the workforce, I think they're going to demand that, uh, that we work in new ways in new, um, more integrated, more digitally savvy pace and uh, strange enough, I think this crisis is going to be a, is a proof point, right? >>Um, many governments are working remotely and yet they're functioning okay. Um, the, the, the world of, um, you know, providing policy seems to be working even if you are, if you are remote. So a lot of the naysayers who said we could not operate digit, operate digitally, um, now are starting to starting to get past that, uh, that bias if you like. And so I think as, as digital natives come into the for what we are going to see is this is a Stressless innovation of why do we do things the same way as we've done them for the last 20, 30 years. Um, granted we need to still have the, um, the, the division of policies, make sure that we are enforcing the policies of government. But at the same time, if you look at workflow, uh, this is the time where you can use automation, intelligent workflows, right? >>This is the time where we can use insights about what our citizens need so that services are tuned, a hyper-local are relevant to what the citizen is going through at that particular time. Uh, contextual and, um, are relevant to what, what that individual needs at that particular time. Uh, rather than us having to go to a portal and, uh, submit an application and submit relevant documents and then be told a few hours or a few minutes later then that you've got, you've got approval for something, right? So I think there's this period of restless innovation coming through that is from a citizen engagement perspective, but behind the scenes in terms of how budgeting works, how approvals work, how uh, uh, you know, the divisions between federal, state, local, how the handoffs between agencies work. All of that is going to be restlessly innovative. And, uh, this is the moment I think this is going to be a trigger point. We believe it's going to be a trigger point for that kind of a transformation? >>No, sure. I'm, I've talked to a number of, of CEOs in, in sort of hard hit industries, um, hospitality, you know, certainly, you know, the restaurant business, airlines and, and you know, they just basically have a dial down spending, um, and really just shift to only mission critical activities. Uh, and in your segments it's, it's mixed, right? I mean, obviously government, you use the engine room, uh, analogy before some of use the war room metaphor, but you think about healthcare, the frontline workers. So it's, it's, it's mixed what our CIO is telling you in, in the industries in which you're focused. >>Well, the CIO is right now. I mean, you're going to go through different phases, right? Phase one is just reactive. It's just coping with the, uh, with the situation today where you suddenly have 95%, a hundred percent of your workforce working remote, providing the ability to, it's providing the leadership, the ability to, to work remotely where possible. Um, and it take IBM for instance, you know, we've got 300,000 people around the world, but 95% of whom are working remotely. Um, but we've been, we've been preparing for moments like this where, uh, you know, we've got the tools, we've got the network bandwidth, we've got the security parameters. Uh, we have been modernizing our applications. Um, so you've been going to a hybrid cloud kind of architecture, but you're able to scale up and scale down, stand up additional capacity when you need it. So I think a lot of the CEOs that we talk to are, uh, you know, phase one was all about how do I keep everything running? >>Phase two is how do I prepare for the new norm where I think more collaborative tools are going to come into, into the work environment. Um, CEO's are going to be much more involved in how do I get design in the center of everything that we do no matter what kind of industry. Alright. So, um, it's, it's going gonna be an interesting change as to the role of the CIO going forward. Dave and I think, uh, again, it's a catalyst to saying why do we have to do things the same way we've been doing? Why do we need so many people in an office building doing things in traditional ways? And why can't we use these digital techniques as the new norm? >>Yeah, there are a lot of learnings going on and I think huge opportunities to, to, to, to save money going forward because we've had to do that in the near term. But, but more importantly, it's like how are we going to invest in the future? And that's, that's something that I think a lot of people are beginning now to think about. They haven't had much time to do anything other than think tactically. But now we're at the point where, okay, we're maybe starting to come out of this a little bit, trying to envision how we come back. And organizations I think are beginning to think about, okay, what is our mid to longer term strategy? It's, we're not just going to go back to 2019. So what do we do going forward? So we're starting to spend more cycles and more energy, you know, on that topic. What do you see? >>Yeah, I mean, take every segment of my, uh, my sector, right? Take the education industry, will you, uh, will you spend 60, $70,000 a year to send a child to university, um, when a lot of the learning is available digitally and when, when we've seen that they can learn as much and probably more, uh, you know, more agile manner and follow their interests. So I think the whole education industry is going to leverage digital in a big way. And I think you're going to see partnerships form, you can see more, uh, you're going to see more choice, uh, for the student and for the parents, uh, in the education industry. And so that industry, which has been kind of falling the same type of pattern, uh, you know, for a hundred years, it's suddenly going to reinvent itself. Take the healthcare industry. Um, you know, it's interesting, a lot of providers are following, uh, following staff because elective, uh, elective treatment as really, you know, uh, fallen tremendously. >>Right? On the one hand you have huge demand for covert 19 related, uh, treatment on the other hand, electives have come down. So cost is a big issue. So I, I believe we're going to see M and a activity, uh, in that sector. And as you see that what's going to happen is people are gonna, uh, restlessly reinvent. So w you know, I think telemedicine is going to, is not going to become a reality. I think, um, if you look at the payer space and if you look at the insurance providers, they're all going to be in the market saying, Harbor, how do I capture more members and retain them and how do I give them more choice? Um, and how do I keep them safe? It's interesting, I was speaking to a colleague in Japan, uh, yesterday and he was saying to me in the automotive industry that, um, I was arguing that, you know, you will see a huge downfall. >>Uh, but his argument back was people are actually so afraid of taking public transport that, uh, they're expecting to see a spike in personal transportation. Right? So I think from a government perspective, the kind of policy implications, um, you know, whether there would be economic stimulus related in the short term, governments are going to introduce inefficiencies to get the economy back to where it needs to be. But over a long term I think we're back to these efficiencies. We are going to look at supply chain, there's going to be a postmortem on how do we get where we got to now. And um, so I think in terms of citizen engagement, in terms of supply chain, in terms of back office operations, in terms of how agencies coordinate, um, do stockpiling command and control, all of that is going to change, right? And it's an exciting time in a way to be at the forefront of these industries shaping, shaping the future. >>I want to ask your thoughts on, on education and excuse me, drill into that a little bit. I've actually got pretty personal visibility in sort of let's, let's break it down. Um, you know, secondary universities, uh, nine through 12 and K through six and then you're seeing some definite differences. Uh, I think actually the universities are pretty well set up. They've been doing online courses for quite some time. They've, they've started, you know, revenue streams in that regard and, and so their technology is pretty good and their processes are pretty good at the other end of the spectrum, sort of the K through six, you know, there's a lot of homeschooling going on and, and parents are at home, they're adjusting pretty well. Whether it's young kids with manipulatives or basic math and vocabulary skills, they're able to support that and you know, adjust their work lives accordingly. >>I find in the, in the high school it's, it's really different. I mean it's new to these folks. I had an interesting conversation with my son last night and he was explaining to me, he spends literally hours a day just trying to figure out what he's got to do because every process is different from every teacher. And so that's that sort of fat middle, if you will, which is a critical time, especially for juniors in high school and so forth where that is so new. And I wonder what you're seeing and maybe those three sectors, is that sort of consistent with what you see and, and what do you see coming out of this? >>I think it's, it's broadly consistent and I have personally experienced, I have one university grade, uh, university senior and I have a high school senior and I see pretty much the same pattern no matter which part of the world they're in. Right? I, I do believe that, um, you know, this notion of choice for students and how they learn and making curriculum customized to get the best out of students is the new reality. How fast we will get there. How do you get there? It's not a linear line. I think what is going to happen is you're going to, you're going to see partnerships between, uh, content providers. You're going to see partnerships between platform providers and you're going to see these educational institutions, uh, less restless. The reinvent to say, okay, this particular student learns in this way and this is, this is how I shape a personalized curriculum, but still achieving a minimum outcome. Right? I think that's going to come, but it's going to take a few years to get there. >>I think it was a really interesting observations. I mean, many children that I observed today are sort of autodidactic and if you give them the tooling to actually set their own learning curriculum, they'll, they'll absorb that and obviously the technology has gotta be there to support it. So it's sort of hitting the escape key. Let's sort of end on that. I mean, in terms of just IBM, how you're positioning in the industries that you're focused on to help people take this new technology journey. As they said, we're not going back to the last decade. It's a whole new world that we're going to going to come out of this post. Coven, how do you see IBM has positioned their Sri round? >>Dave, I think I'd be positioned brilliantly. Um, as you know, we've, Arvind Christianized is our new CEO and, uh, he, he recently talked about this on CNBC. So if you look at the core platforms that we've been building, right? Um, so CA occupies an industry, whether it's, whether it be government, healthcare, life sciences or education are going to look for speed. They're going to look for agility, they're going to look to change processes quickly so they can, they can react to situations like this in the future in a much more agile way, right? In order to do that, their it systems, their applications, their infrastructure needs to scale up and down needs to be, uh, you need to be able to configure things in a way where you can change parameters. You can change policies without having to read a long time, right? And so if you think about things like HyperCloud our investment in, uh, in, in red hat, uh, our, uh, our, uh, position on data and open technologies and, um, you know, our policies around making sure that, that our client's data and insights are their insights and we don't, we don't want to taste that. >>On of those things. Our investments in blockchain are deep, deep, uh, incumbency in services. But there'd our technology services, our consulting services, our deep industry knowledge, allowing all of these technologies to be used at to solve these problems. Um, I think we are really well positioned and, uh, you know, a great example is the New York example, right? So, uh, getting 350,000 students to work in a completely new way in a matter of two weeks. It's not something that every single company can do. It's not just a matter of providing the tech, the tool itself, it's the content, it's the consumption, it's the design must experience. And that's where a company like IBM can bring everything together. And then you have the massive issues of government, like social reform, like mental health, like making sure the stimulus money is going to the people who need it the most, um, in, in the most useful way. And that's where I work between industries, between government and banks and other industries really comes to, comes to fruition. So I think we have the technology but the services depth. And I think we've got the relevance of the industry to make a difference. And I'm excited about the future. >>Well, it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, the basically one of my takeaways is that you've got to be agile. You've gotta be flexible. You, you've been in the consulting business for most of your career and in the early part of your career. And even up until, you know, maybe recently we were automating processes that we knew well, but today the processes are, we so much is unknown. And so you've got to move fast. You've got to be agile, you've got to experiment, uh, and apply that sort of, you know, test, experiment, methodology and iterate and have that continuous improvement. That's a different world than what we've known. Obviously. You know, as I say, you've seen this over the decades. Uh, your final thoughts on, uh, on the future. >>Well, my final thoughts are, um, yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, if I take a simple example, right, that, that, uh, controls how quickly the commerce works. Think about simple things like bill of lading. Uh, the government has to issue a federal government has to prove that a state government has to prove it and local government has to prove it. Why? That's the way we've been doing it for a long time. Right? There are control points, but to your point, imagine if you can shorten that from a seven day cycle to a seven second cycle. The impact on commerce, the impact on GDP, and this is one simple process. This is the time for us to re to, to, to break it all apart and say why not do something differently? And the technology is right. The CA, the AI is getting more and more and more mature and you've got interesting things like quantum to look forward to. So I think the timing is right for, for reinventing, uh, the core of this industry. >>Yeah, I think they really are. I mean, it's difficult as this crisis has been a lot of opportunities going to present coming out of a tree room. Thanks so much for coming on the cube and making this happen. Really appreciate your time. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Dave, you're very welcome and thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Volante for the Cuban or continuous coverage of the IBM think 2020 digital event experience. Keep it right there and we right back right after this short break.

(soft music) >> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world: this is a CUBE conversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this special cube conversation. We're here in the Palo Alto studios, where I am; here during this critical time during the corona virus and this work at home current situation across the United States and around the world. We've got a great interview here today around cybersecurity and the threats that are out there. The threats that are changing as a result of the current situation. We got two great guests; Derek Manky, Chief Security Insights and Global Threat Alliances at FortiGuard labs. And Renee Tarun, deputy Chief Information Security Officer with Fortinet net. Guys, thanks for remotely coming in. Obviously, we're working remotely. Thanks for joining me today on this really important conversation. >> It's a pleasure to be here. >> Thanks for having us. >> So Renee and Derek. Renee, I want to start with you as deputing CISO. There's always been threats. Every day is a crazy day. But now more than ever over the past 30 to 45 days we've seen a surge in activity with remote workers. Everyone's working at home. It's disrupting family's lives. How people do business. And also they're connected to the internet. So it's an endpoint. It's a (laughs) hackable environment. We've had different conversation with you guys about this. But now more than ever, it's an at scale problem. What is the impact of the current situation for that problem statement of from working at home, at scale. Are there new threats? What's happening? >> Yeah, I think you're seeing some organizations have always traditionally had that work at home ability. But now what you're seeing is now entire workforces that are working home and now some companies are scrambling to ensure that they have a secure work at home for teleworkers at scale. In addition some organizations that never had a work from home practice are now being forced into that and so a lot of organizations now are faced with the challenge that employees are now bringing their own device into connecting to their networks. 'Cause employees can't be bring their workstations home with them. And if they don't have a company laptop they're of course using their own personal devices. And some personal devices are used by their kids. They're going out to gaming sites that could be impacted with malware. So it creates a lot of different challenges from a security perspective that a lot of organizations aren't necessarily prepared for. It's not only from a security but also from a scalability perspective. >> When I'm at home working... I came into the studio to do this interview. So I really wanted to talk to you guys. But when I'm at home, this past couple weeks. My kids are home. My daughter is watching Netflix. My son's gaming, multiplayer gaming. The surface area from a personnel standpoint or people standpoint is increased. My wife's working at home. My daughters there, two daughters. So this is also now a social issue because there are more people on the WiFi, there's more bandwidth being used. There's more fear. This has been an opportunity for the hackers. This crime of fear using the current situation. So is it changing how you guys are recommending people protect themselves at home? Or is it just accelerating a core problem that you've seen before? >> Yeah, so I think it's not changing. It's changing in terms of priority. I mean, all the things that we've talked about before it's just becoming much more critical. I think, at this point in time. If you look at any histories that we've... Lessons we've learned from the past or haven't learned (laughs). That's something that is just front and center right now. We've seen attack campaigns on any high level news. Anything that's been front and center. And we've seen successful attack campaigns in the past owing to any sort of profile events. We had Olympic destroyer last last Olympic period, when we have them in Korea as an example, in South Korea. We've seen... I can go back 10 years plus and give a History timeline, every single there's been something dominating the news. >> John: Yeah. And there's been attack campaigns that are leveraged on that. Obviously this is a much higher focus now given the global news domination that's happening with COVID. The heightened fear and anxiety. Just the other day FortiGuard labs, we pulled up over 600 different phishing emails and scam attempts for COVID-19. And we're actively poring through those. I expect that number to increase. Everybody is trying to hop on this bandwagon. I was just talking to our teams from the labs today. Groups that we haven't seen active since about 2011, 2012. Malware campaign authors. They're riding this bandwagon right now as well. So it's really a suction if you will, for these cyber criminals. So all of the things that we recommend in the past, obviously being vigilant, looking at those links coming in. Obviously, there's a lot of impersonators. There's a lot of spoofing out there. People prefer pretending to be the World Health Organization. We wrote a blog on this a couple of weeks back. People have to have this zero trust mentality coming in. Is everyone trying to ride on this? Especially on social networks, on emails. Even phishing and voice vishing. So the voice phishing. You really have to put more... People have to put more of a safeguard up. Not only for their personal health like everyone's doing the social distancing but also virtual (laughs) social distancing when it comes to really trusting who's trying to send you these links. >> Well, I'm glad you guys have the FortiGuard guard labs there. And I think folks watching should check it out and keep sending us that data. I think watching the data is critical. Everyone's watching the data. They want the real data. You brought up a good point, Rene. I want to get your thoughts on this because the at scale thing really gets my attention because there's more people at home as I mentioned from a social construct standpoint. Work at home is opening up new challenges for companies that haven't been prepared. Even though ones that are prepared have known at scale. So you have a spectrum of challenges. The social engineering is the big thing on Phishing. You're seeing all kinds of heightened awareness. It is a crime of opportunity for hackers. Like Derek just pointed out. What's your advice? What's your vision of what's happening? How do you see it evolving? And what can people do to protect themselves? What's the key threats? And what steps are people taking? >> Yeah, I think, like Derek said, kind of similar how in the physical world we're washing our hands. We're keeping 6 feet away from people. We could distance from our adversaries, as well. Again when you're looking at your emails ensuring that you're only opening attachments from people that you know. Hovering over the links to ensure that they are from legitimate sources. And being mindful that when you're seeing these type of attacks coming in, whether they are coming through emails. Through your phones. Take a moment and pause and think about would someone be contacting me through my cell phone? Through sending me a text message? or emails asking me for personal information? Asking me for user IDs and passwords, credential and information. So you kind of need to take that second and really think before you start taking actions. And similar to opening attachments we've seen a lot of cases where someone attaches a PDF file to an email but when you open up the PDF it's actually a malware. So you need to be careful and think to yourself, was I expecting this attachment? Do I know the person? And take steps to actually follow up and call that person directly and say, "Hey, did you really send this to me? "Is this legitimate?" >> And the thing-- >> You got to to be careful what you're opening up. Which links you click on. But while I got you here, I want to get your opinion on this because there's digital attacks and then there's phone based attacks. We all have mobile phones. I know this might be a little bit too elementary, but I do want to get it out there. Can you define the difference in phishing and spear phishing for the folks that are trying to understand the difference in phishing and spear phishing techniques. >> The main difference is spear phishing is really targeting a specific individual, or within a specific role within a company. For example, targeting like the CEO or the CFO. So those are attacks that are specifically targeting a specific individual or specific role. Where phishing emails are targeting just mass people regardless of their roles and responsibilities. >> So I'm reading the blog post that you guys put out. Which I think everyone... I'll put the link on SiliconANGLE later. But it's on fortinet.com Under digital attacks you've got the phishing and spear phishing which is general targeting an email or individually spear spearing someone specifically. But you guys list social media deception, pre-texting and water holing as the key areas. Is that just based on statistics? Or just the techniques that people are using? Can you guys comment on and react to those different techniques? >> Yeah, so I think with the water holing specifically as well. The water holing attack refers to people that every day as part of their routine going to some sort of, usually a news source. It could be their favorite sites, social media, etc. Those sorts of sources because it's expected for people to go and drink from a water hole, are prime targets to these attackers. They can be definitely used for spear phishing but also for the masses for these phishing campaigns. Those are more effective. Attackers like to cast a wide net. And it's especially effective if you think of the climate that's happening right now, like you said earlier at the start of this conversation. That expanded attack surface. And also the usage of bandwidth and more platforms now applications. There's more traffic going to these sites simply. People have more time at home through telework. To virtually go to these sites. And so, yeah. Usually what we see in these water holing attacks can be definitely phishing sites that are set up on these pages. 'Cause they might have been compromised. So this is something even for people who are hosting these websites, right? There's always two sides of the coin. You got security of your client side security And your service side security-- >> So spear phishing is targeting an individual, water holing is the net that gets a lot of people and then they go from there. Can you guys, Renee or Derek talk about social media deception and pretexting. These are other techniques as well that are popular. Can you guys comment and define those? >> Yeah, so some of the pretexting that you're saying is what's happening is adversaries are either sending text, trying to get people to click on links, go to malicious sites. And they're also going setting up these fabricated stories and they're trying to call. Acting like they're a legitimate source. And again, trying to use tactics and a lot of times scare tactics. Trying to get people to divulge information, personal information. Credit card numbers, social security numbers, user IDs and passwords to gain access to either-- >> So misinformation campaigns would be an example that like, "I got a coven virus vaccine, put your credit card down now and get on the mailing list." Is that was that kind of the general gist there? >> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> And we've also seen as another example, and this was in one of our blogs I think about a couple weeks ago some of the first waves of these attacks that we saw was also again, impersonating to be the World Health Organization as part of pretexting. Saying that there's important alerts and updates that these readers must read in their regions, but they're of course malicious documents that are attached. >> Yeah, how do people just get educated on this? This is really challenging because if you're a nerd like us you can know what a URL looks like. And you can tell it's a host server or host name, it's not real. But when they're embedded in these social networks, how do you know? what's the big challenge? Just education and kind of awareness? >> Yeah, so I'll just jump in quickly on that. From my point of view, it's the whole ecosystem, right? There's no just one silver bullet. Education, cyber hygiene for sure. But beyond that obviously, this is where the security solutions pop in. So having that layered defense, right? That goes a long way of everything from anti-spam to antivirus. To be able to scan those malicious attachments. Endpoint security. Especially now in the telework force that we're dealing with having managed endpoint security from distributed enterprise angle is very important because all of these workstations that were within the corporate network before are now roaming--quote unquote--roaming or from home. So it's a multi-pronged approach, really. But education is of course a very good line of defense for our employees. And I think updated education on a weekly basis. >> Okay, before we get to the remote action steps, 'Cause I think the remote workers at scales like the critical problem that we're seeing now. I want to just close out this attack social engineering thing. There's also phone based attacks. We all have mobile phones, right? So we use such smartphones. There's other techniques in that. What are the techniques for the phone based attacks? >> Yeah, a lot of times you'll see adversaries, they're spoofing other phones. So what happens is that when you receive a call or a text it looks like it's coming from a number in your local area. So a lot of times that kind of gives you a false sense of security thinking in that it is a legitimate call when in reality they're simply just spoofing the number. And it's really coming from somewhere else in the country or somewhere else in the world. >> So I get a call from Apple support and it's not Apple support. They don't have a callback, that's spoofing? >> That's one way but also the number itself. When you see the number coming in. For example, I'm in the 410 area code. Emails coming in from my area code with my exchange is another example where it looks like it's someone that's either a close friend or someone within my community when in reality, it's not. >> And at the end of the day too the biggest red flags for these attacks are unsolicited information, right? If they're asking for any information always, always treat that as a red flag. We've seen this in the past. Just as an example with call centers, hotels too. Hackers have had access right to the switchboards to call guests rooms and say that there's a problem at the front desk and they just want to register the users information and they asked for credit card guest information to confirm all sorts of things. So again, anytime information is asked for always think twice. Try to verify. Callback numbers are a great thing. Same thing in social media if someone's messaging you, right? Try to engage in that dialect conversation, verify their identity. >> So you got-- >> That's also another good example of social media, is another form of essential engineering attacks is where people are creating profiles in say for example, LinkedIn. And they're acting like they're either someone from your company or a former colleague or friend as another way to try and make that human to human connection in order to do malicious things. >> Well, we've discussed with you guys in the past around LinkedIn as a feeding ground for spear phishing because, "Hey, here, don't tell your boss but here's "a PDF job opening paying huge salary. "You're qualified." Of course I'm going to look at that, right? So and a lot of that goes on. We see that happen a lot. I want to get your thoughts, Renee on the the vishing and phishing. Smishing is the legitimate source spoofing and vishing is the cloaking or spoofing, right? >> Yeah, smishing is really the text based attacks that you're seeing through your phones. Vishing is using more of a combination of someone that is using a phone based attack but also creating a fake profile, creating a persona. A fabricated story that's ultimately fake but believable. And to try and encourage you to provide information, sensitive information. >> Well, I really appreciate you guys coming on and talking about the attackers trying to take advantage of the current situation. The remote workers again, this is the big at scale thing. What are the steps that people can take, companies can take to protect themselves from or the at scale remote worker situation that could be going on for quite some time now? >> Yeah. So again, at that scale with people in this new normal as we call it, teleworking. Being at scale is... Everyone has to do their part. So I would recommend A from an IT standpoint, keeping all employees virtually in the loop. So weekly updates from security teams. The cyber hygiene practice, especially patch management is critically important too, right? You have a lot of these other devices connected to networks, like you said. IoT devices, all these things that are all prime attack targets. So keeping all the things that we've talked about before, like patch management. Be vigilant on that from an end user perspective. I think especially putting into the employees that they have to be aware that they are highly at risk for this. And I think there has to be... We talked about changes earlier. In terms of mentality education, cyber hygiene, that doesn't change. But I think the way that this isn't forced now, that starts with the change, right? That's a big focus point especially from an IT security standpoint. >> Well, Derek, keep that stat and keep those stats coming in to us. We are very interested. You got the insight. You're the chief of the insights and the global threat. You guys do a great job at FortiGuard guard labs. That's phenomenal. Renee, I'd like you to have the final word on the segment here and we can get back to our remote working and living. What is going on the mind of the CISO right now? Because again, a lot of people are concerned. They don't know how long it's going to last. Certainly we're now in a new normal. Whatever happens going forward as post pandemic world, what's going on in the mind of the CISO right now? What are they thinking? What are they planning for? What's going on? >> Yeah, I think there's a lot of uncertainty. And I think the remote teleworking, again, making sure that employees have secure remote access that can scale. I think that's going to be on the forefront. But again, making sure that people connecting remotely don't end up introducing additional potential vulnerabilities into your network. And again, just keeping aware. Working closely with the IT teams to ensure that we keep our workforces updated and trained and continue to be vigilant with our monitoring capabilities as well as ensuring that we're prepared for potential attacks. >> Well, I appreciate your insights, folks, here. This is great. Renee and Derek thanks for coming on. We want to bring you back in when should do a digital event here in the studio and get the data out there. People are interested. People are making changes. Maybe this could be a good thing. Make some lemonade out of the lemons that are in the industry right now. So thank you for taking the time to share what's going on in the cyber risks. Thank you. >> Thank you, we'll keep those stats coming. >> Okay, CUBE conversation here in Palo Alto with the remote guests. That's what we're doing now. We are working remotely with all of our CUBE interviews. Thanks for watching. I'm John Furrier, co-host to theCUBE. (soft music)