>> Announcer: Live from Austin, Texas. It's The Cube. Covering DockerCon 2017, brought to you by Docker and support from it's ecosystem partners. (techno music) Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is Silicon Angle Media's production of The Cube, the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage and this is DockerCon 2017. We're here at the Austin Convention Center, just had the day two kick-off at the keynote. Really, yesterday was the developer day, today is the enterprise day. And to help me break down the latest news and what's happening in the ecosystem, I grabbed just some guy. (laughter) And of course, that's actually in his Twitter bio, which is why I do this, and I happen to have a good friend of mine, a good friend of the community, Stephen Foskett, who is the organizer of TechFieldDay. Stephen, always great to see ya and thanks for taking time out to get a little casual and dig into some open-source developer stuff. >> Yeah, you know, these are the developers, I'm used to wearing my fancy clothes, but I figured I would try to blend in a little bit here with the DevOps crowd at DockerCon. >> Yeah, I saw one of the demo guys had like a flashy jacket. I figured you'd come in in tails and- >> Yeah, I do usually have flashy shirts and stuff on, but yesterday I felt a little out of place, I mean these guys are, well, a lot of t-shirts here. >> Yeah, so today not as many announcements but it's always interesting. Shows like Amazon, shows like this, it's like, okay, one day let's talk to the developers and one day let's talk to the enterprise. What's your take on that? How is Docker doing with their maturation and what do you see in the marketplace? >> Yeah, I think that's really the key to what they're planning, so yesterday, I don't want to say developer because it was developer and ops but it was basically traditional Docker day, yesterday. And today is all about the enterprise. And I think that Docker had a very clear goal from today and that was to really plant their flag and say, not just Docker Day the center like last year, but that Docker is not only ready to be in the enterprise and not only has the tools to be in the enterprise, but is already there with some major customers. >> Yeah and great customers, had Visa and MetLife up onstage and no better way to say we're ready for enterprise applications than say, hey, Oracle is in the store there. What's your take, anything on the customer case studies Oracle? >> Well, let's take the customer case studies first. So clearly the takeaway from the Visa presentation and the MetLife presentation was nothing more than Visa is using Docker and Anchore, MetLife is using Docker and Anchore. I mean, basically these are massive, traditional companies with absolutely critical workloads, huge security requirements, and they're using Docker in production. I think that, if we would have all listened, Ben could have stood up there and said, "Hey everybody, Docker, MetLife, enterprise, production" and that would have been a substitute for 45 minutes of discussion. Because it's not like Visa's really going to tell us the secret ins and outs of their infrastructure, but they told us the most important thing, which is that a lot of those transactions are running through Docker containers. And that's what Docker wanted us to hear. >> It's interesting. Ben kind of blew up the myth of bimodal IT. And one of the things we'd kind of been looking at and want to get your opinion on, is taking my older applications and just kind of wrapping and moving them. Without changing a line of code, I can bring this into this environment what, you know many of us called for years, 'lift and shift'. What do you think about the modern, building new applications versus the old applications and, of course, customers don't have two IT environments. They usually need to move things together and have kind of a whole strategy. >> Yeah and well, I'm ambivalent about this whole concept of bimodal IT, but I'm not ready to reject it. I think it still matters from an app perspective, from an app-to-app perspective, and I think it's absolutely true that there are multiple kinds of apps. In fact, I think there's probably more than two kinds. I think that's maybe the real problem. You've got the real traditional applications, you know Southwest just announced that they're moving their reservation system forward from some old mainframe to some new mainframe, and that's causing all sorts of disruption in travel. Those kind of applications and then there's the more open systems packaged applications from the '90s and the 2000s and those things can be moved forward. And then there's sort of the applications that can be really modernized with containers and then there's the applications that you can 'microservice-cize' and then there's real cloud applications. So it's not just bimodal IT, it's really octomodal IT. >> And I like that Ben put it up there, it was a journey that they talked about. It's let's get everything on kind of a shared platform and have a way that we can do it the old way, start breaking it apart into more pieces, or totally rewrite. Because we know the migration cost of having to rewrite an application, it's really tough. >> Stephen: It's huge. >> But it's something that, for too long, people were like, 'oh well, I'll just run on that really old application that kind of sucked for way too long,' so I know sometimes I'm getting on my soap box and being like, please, your users hate that application and they'd like to be a little bit more modern. But it's not an easy thing and there's multiple paths to get there. There was an announcement, they called it the 'modernized traditional applications'. Any take on that and how that fits into the discussion we were just having? >> Well they talked about that a little bit today, not to put in too much of a plug, but we actually had a 45 minute discussion of that with TechFieldDay on Monday and it was embargoed. But the video is actually uploaded now and so if you just Google 'TechFieldDay Docker modernized tradition applications', there's a much deeper dive into that and really what that means and essentially, it's a take on the old P2V strategy that we saw in virtualization that it is possible to literally just scoop up a traditional application and put it in a container. But it's doing more than that and there's all sorts of things that are going on here there identifying which components are part of the application, they're helping you set up the network so that the application will connect still the right way. And I think by choice, Docker didn't really want to emphasize all the real nuts and bolts. I mean, they showed a great, well, an amusing demo of this in action with Ben playing the straight man at the keynote, and that's worth watching as well, but it remains to be seen to what extent they're going to be able to modernize traditional applications and containerize traditional applications. >> Okay, so Stephen, one of the things that is probably the least mature in the Docker ecosystem is storage. I know it's something you've spent some time digging into, what's your take on where we are with storage and containers, where it needs to go, what's the truth and reality? >> Yeah, well my, as you say, my background is storage. And I love storage, I really do. But absolutely, Docker, when I first started experimenting with Docker, I was really blown away by the sort of amateur hour storage approach that they took, I mean, it was essentially, here's a company that knows nothing about storage or networking, building a storage and a networking system. You know, what's wrong with these people? But over time, I've kind of, my view has become a little more nuanced. Because I see that Docker wasn't trying to build an enterprise-grade storage infrastructure, they were trying to build a storage layer that would allow you efficiently to deploy containers. The whole idea always was that storage would be external to the container. And if you're using internal container storage, if you're using the layered file systems, you're doing it wrong if you're doing any kind of real IO. And so, you know we saw a proliferation of plug-ins to allow you to use real storage systems, enterprise storage systems. Ben mentions Nimble and NetApp and companies like that. And in addition, we're starting now to see a whole raft of really interesting, basically container storage arrays. So you've got companies like Storage OS and Portworx developing real enterprise-concept storage specifically targeted at containers. And I think that that's really what's going to happen, is we're going to have the containers using the layered Docker storage but real heavy IO and enterprise applications are either going to us plugged-in enterprise storage or Dockerized enterprise storage. >> Reminds us a lot of what we saw with virtualization- >> Stephen: Absolutely. >> We spent a decade fixing that, I actually remember at Intel Developer Forum, gosh was it like two years ago, Nick Weaver, good friend of ours, works over at Intel, used to work at EMZ, goes to this presentation, I get up at the end, I'm like, 'hey Nick, how are we going to solve all these issues like we did for VMware?" And he was like, 'oh my gosh.' >> And it's pretty much the same story, isn't it? >> It is that same story. >> You know, we're seeing basically the same thing, like virtual storage appliances equals container storage appliances. >> The oversimplified thing of it for me is I felt like we moved along faster with storage and networking took a long time in the virtualization layer, and here it's flipped. Networking seems to move along a little bit faster and storage is there and it's a little nuanced as to what that storage solution looks like, it's not just like, 'oh, we put it all in the hypervisor and eventually it works and we do everything in VM layer.' It's like, well, containers are a little bit different. >> Yeah and some of these container storage solutions are really clever. They've take the lessons from virtualization, from cloud storage, they're building distributed storage, it's really cool. But I think there's another thing to think about there too and that's that Docker invested pretty heavily in creating a, I don't want to say a real enterprise networking layer, but a better networking layer for Swarm. And I think that that may be a road sign of what they may do for storage as well. I think we may see Docker developing a more advanced storage layer, maybe not an enterprise storage layer, but at least something scalable, something distributed for Swarm customers. >> Yeah, I want to get just a little broader from you, just your take on storage these days. I look at adoption of Amazon, VMware's going to go on Amazon. Look, Azure Stack's coming out this summer and you know, we're going to have the S2D as the storage layer for what that's built on. What's the storage market look like from the Foskett viewpoint? >> Well storage is really conservative and when you talk about the market and you talk about the technology, these are two very different things. So the technology is rapidly advancing, we're seeing the world is right now being blown away by the current wave, which is distributed, NVMe, ultra high-performance flash storage, exemplified by a company like Excelero, for example. That's absolutely the coolest stuff out there right now. But then the market is still adopting SAN. You know what I mean? The market is still, you know, 'hey, should we implement iSCSI? Hey, should we look at NFSv4?' Things like that and it's a real kind of facepalm thing because you look at the reality of storage and it doesn't keep up with the promise of enterprise storage. But it's, yeah and then there's the whole aspect of sort of cloud storage, off-premises storage and that is also a potentially game-changer for the market. But overall, I would say that you'd be a fool to bet on radical transformation of storage. It's just not going to happen. You know, that's why HP's going to get tremendous value out of buying Nimble. That's why NetApp and Dell EMC are going to be selling a lot of product for a long time. Because although they're innovating and advancing and keeping up with some of these new waves of storage, the truth is most buyers are buying very calm, boring stuff still. >> Alright, Stephen, unfortunately we're running low on time. Why don't you be the final word, let's talk about the community aspect. I loved, you come into a lot of these open-source shows, it's just got a great vibe, enthusiastic, really people that want to learn. And I know that always excites me, it's the kind of thing that you love, hanging out with those people too. What's your take on kind of the Docker ecosystem and community? >> It's wonderful. I mean, it reminds me of how VMware was back, well, the last decade. It's a warm, inviting, exciting community. And one of the things that I really want to highlight here at DockerCon that I've seen is that it's a lot more of a diverse community than I've seen traditionally in IT. I'm more of in enterprise IT and so there's a lot of people walking around that look like me. And looking here, there's a lot of people that don't. And that is fantastic. Docker has done a great job of emphasizing diversity, they've got onsite child care, they've got, I mean, Solomon tweeted that there's 20% women attendees at DockerCon. To me, yeah, the vibe is great, but wow! Talk about broadening IT and talk about modernizing IT. That's modernizing IT. >> Alright, well Stephen Foskett, always great to catch up with you. I'm sure I will see you at many conferences throughout our travels throughout the year and we've got a full day of coverage here from DockerCon 2017. Solomon Hykes is coming on, we do have Visa who did the case study, many other partners, Oracle who made an announcement today. I've got a couple of service providers who actually participated in Stephen's TFDX event here before the event. So stay tuned for all our coverage and thank you for watching The Cube. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Austin, Texas, it's The Cube covering DockerCon 2017 brought to you by Docker and support from its ecosystem partners. (upbeat tech music) >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman and this is SiliconANGLE Media's The Cube. We're the worldwide leader in enterprise tech coverage. Happy to be coming to you from DockerCon 2017 here in the Austin Convention Center of course in Austin, Texas. My host for the next few days will be Jim Kobielus, Jim thank you so much for joining us. >> It's great to join the team. >> Alright, so we'll get to you in a second, Jim, but first of all, it is the fourth year of the DockerCon show Docker The Company, just celebrated its fourth year of existence, CEO Ben Golub started off the keynote Founder, CTO, Chief Product Guy, Solomon Heights, introduced a bunch of opensource initiatives, did a bunch of demos, the first DockerCon event back in 2014, I actually had the pleasure of attending, was my favorite show of that year, I got to hear some of these HyperScale guys talk about how they were using containers, how Google spins up and spins down two billion containers in a week and there were about 400 people there and Docker, the company, was 42 people. Fast forward to where we are today in 2017, Docker, the company, I believe is 320 people, there is over 5,500 people here, you can see 'em all streaming in behind me here as the Keynote just let out, so, we've got two full days here of coverage. This morning, we're going to go through a little bit of the news, talk about who we're going to cover, but first of all, I want to introduce you to Jim Kobielus, so John Furrier sends his regards to the community, he's real sorry he couldn't make it out, just had some things came up at the last minute, so he couldn't come, but stepping in for him with lots of knowledge and experience is Jim, so Jim, please, for our audience that hasn't gotten chance to see, you did some intro videos with our crew out in our 4,500 square foot Palo Alto studio at the beginning of the month, but why don't you tell 'em what brought you to the SiliconANGLE Media team, your background, and what you're going to be doing. >> Great, yeah, thanks Stu. Yeah, I've joined just recently in the last few weeks, I am Wikibon's lead analyst for application development as well as data science and deep learning. I create data science and the development of artificial intelligence as a huge and really one of the predominant developer themes now in the business world and really much of that that's going on in business in terms of development of the AI applications is in the form of microservices in containerized format for deployment out to multiclouds and increasingly serverless computing environments. So, I am totally pumped and excited to be at DockerCon and there were some great announcements this morning, I was very impressed that this community is making great progress, both on the sheer complexity and sophistication of the ecosystem, but on just the amount of support for Docker technology, for Kubernetes and so forth for the full range of technologies that enable containerized application development. Hot stuff. >> Yeah, Jim, and you talked about things like community and ecosystem and that was definitely the theme here day one. Docker did some changing in their packaging since we were at the show last year. They now have Docker CE which is the community edition. Focus on the developers and today was developer day. I'm pretty sure everything that was announced today is opensourced, it's in there, it's in the free version. I expect tomorrow we'll probably hear more about EE, it's the Enterprise Edition >> Enterprise, yes. >> A question I know we all have is how is the monetization of what Docker's doing progressing, the press and analyst dinner last night, I heard from a Docker employee and said look, we all understand, we are the early days of the monetization of Docker, but Solomon, this morning, said really, the success of Docker the company is tied directly to the ecosystem. We've got Microsoft coming on today, we've got Sysco, Oracle, lots of partners coming on this week talk about what Docker's doing, what's happened in opensource is going to help a broad ecosystem and all, not just the developers, but enterprises and the companies, so, what are you looking at this week, what are you hoping to come out of, what grabbed you from the Keynotes this morning? >> Well, grabbing from the Keynotes this morning is the maturation of the containerized Docker ecosystem in the form of greater portability, in terms of the LinuxKit announcement, we'll get to that later, as well as great customization capabilities to the Moby project. This is just milestones in the development and maturation of a truly robust ecosystem of innovation, really, what Docker's all about now that it's a real platforms company, is helping its partners to be raving successes in this rapidly expanding marketplace, so, that's what I see, the chief themes so far of this today. >> Yeah and it's interesting, one of the things we've always looked at Docker is like what does the opensource community do, what does the company do, what's the co-opetition play? Two years ago at the show in San Francisco, there was taking the container run time and really making sure that's opensource. You had the CoreOS guys and the Docker guys hugging. I got a picture of Ben Golub and Alex Polvi standing together and it was like oh, okay, that little cold war was over. LinuxKit is something we're going to look at, they lined up some really good partners. We got Intel, Microsoft, HPE, and IBM, but, we're going to talk to Red Hat and Canonical and see what they think about this because from the Linux guys, I've been hearing for the last couple of years, well, Linux really is containers. It's all just something that sits on top and containers, of course, is the Windows variant now, too, but you just buy your Linux and Containers comes with it and now, we say oh, we've got LinuxKit which is, I'm going to have a distribution that's fast, optimized, four containers that Docker and that ecosystem they're building's going to do. >> Same as everywhere, I mean Ben Golub laid it out maybe with Solomon this morning. Containers are really the predominant packaging of applications large and small across increasingly not just traditional enterprise and consumer applications but also the internet of things, so, but internet of things and the development of AI for the IOT is a huge theme that I'm focusing on in my coverage for Wikibon. I see a fair amount of enablers for that here. >> Great, and Jim, and absolutely, there was a big slide with Docker will be where you need to be, so, whether you're in the public cloud, of course, there's container services from, we've got Amazon ECS right here. You've got what's going on with Google and their containers. Microsoft Badger of course, so, there's so many pieces, so, a lot we're going to go through, we've got a full slate of interviews, of course, everybody can watch here at SiliconANGLE TV. If you want to participate in social conversation, John Furrier's actually been banging away, it's CrowdChat.net/DockerCon is where we're having some of the social conversations, of course, you can always reach out, I'm just @Stu on Twitter, Jim is @JamesKobielus which you'll see on the lower third when we put him up here is where he is on Twitter, if you're at the Expo Hall, you'll see the Expo Hall's behind us, we're just in the corner of the Expo Hall, going to be here for two days. Jim, I want to give you the final word on our intro here, come to the end of the day, what do you hope to have walked away with? >> Well, I hope to walk away with a more rich and nuance understanding of this ecosystem and the differentiators among the dozen upon dozens of companies here. Partners of Docker. Really what I see is a huge growth of the Kubernetes segment in terms of orchestration, scaling, of cluster management for all things to do with, not just Docker, but really Container D, which, of course, Docker recently opensourced, it's core container engine. I think this is totally exciting to see just the vast range of specialty vendors in the area providing tools to help you harden your containerized microservices environment for your CloudNative computing environments, that's what I hope to take away. I'm going to walk these halls when I'm not physically on The Cube and talk to these vendors here, exciting stuff, innovation. >> Yeah, absolutely, and you gave us so many pieces there, Jim. You mentioned Kubernetes, of course. There is that little bit of do I use Dockers Forum or do I use Kubernetes? Docker, of course, would like you to use Forum, that's what they're >> And in fact, that was an excellent discussion this morning about swarms advantages as well. I don't want to make it sound like I'm totally shifting towards Kubernetes in terms of my preferences. I mean, clearly, it's a highly innovative and dynamic space, so, Docker is making some serious investments and beefing up their entire enterprise stack including Swarm. >> Where I wanted to go, actually, with that is the Moby project actually is one of those things I saw as a nice maturation of what we hear from Docker. For the first couple of years, Docker said batteries are included but swapable, which means things like Swarm are going to make it in there, but you could use an alternative, so you want to use Kubernetes, go ahead and that's fine and Moby has allowed them to take all the components that are opensource. People inside Docker can work on them, people outside can collaborate them, much more modular. Reminds me of how when we talk about how development teams work, it's those two pizza teams, Docker has them internal, they're pulling more people in, how is that opensource collaboration going to expand? Scalability, I think, is the word that I heard over and over again in the Keynote. Scaling of the company, scaling of the products, scaling of the ecosystem, so something more interesting, say, we've been scaling our operations and we got two full days here of coverage so make sure to stay with The Cube for everything we've got here and thank you for watching The Cube. (upbeat tech music)

lying from the austin convention center in austin texas it's the q @ l world 2014 here are your hosts dave vellante and Stu miniman hi we're back to wrap up 2l world's two minima and I have been here all day will be here tomorrow as well we're starting at eight thirty local time 930 east coast time tomorrow getting started early michael dell will be on tomorrow we'll have the keynotes again only bar broadcasting for a half day but so today's do i want to get your take on this a lot of talk of course initiated by me and others about dallas a private company I think it's a two-edged sword frankly because I think that when things are really good and you got a lot of momentum behind you you've got transparent confirmation or quasi transparent confirmation and that creates a lot of buzz and Busby gets buzzed and acted some good thing some flywheel effects can occur from being public at the same time when things aren't so great and the headlines are bad and the earnings aren't great you can go into this vortex this abyss which dealt was kind of there and I think as you were talking about with Matt Eastwood the timing of del going private couldn't have been better from a valuation standpoint for Michael Dell and Silver Lake I mean I I think they got a fantastic deal even though there's a lot of risk in it that they're taking but the fact that Michael Dell's willing to step up and do that now on 75 percent of the company yes they have debt service what is it 18 billion dollars in debt so i think i think was the number but they'll pay that off over time because of the cash flow machine and they're going to be in a really good position when that happens yeah David's real interesting you know there's been a lot of change Adele there's been there's a lot of new faces here and some of the ones that we knew for many years are gone and you really are having that transformation inside I heard one person kind of overheard in the hallway type thing is you know there were certain antibodies in Dell and you know they're kind of sweeping through making changes and if there's some that aren't on board with where it's going you know well maybe they'll need to take I guess it was the voluntary exit type solution around and but they're hiring aggressively in other spaces because yeah I T is changing and for me the real striking thing dave is they'll talk a lot about choice and we say you know there's so many different markets out there there's you know VMware in their ecosystem that's what Microsoft's doing there's a public cloud and there's all of these little you know sub climates inside IT and devils playing a lot of bets which we talked about is how many bets can you place and actually make enough margin and win at what you're doing so since dell doesn't have to answer to Wall Street they can do what they think is best for the company and really for the customers it kept coming back to you know Michael and all the executive saying we're focused on what the customers are asking us to do we can move really fast we've definitely seen examples of Dell moving faster to deliver some of these solutions that then then they had when they were a public company things like a cloud marketplace things like the new tanukhs OEM you know a lot of interesting technologies here and there's still lots of hardware Dave you know i'm looking through the twitter stream and everybody snapping pictures of the new FX to kind of the next generation vertex it went from vertex really be in that remote office box to the FX to really being a data center you know nice hardware platform that you can build for a more scalable environment so you know interesting stuff happening always a good vibe here in Austin I think that one of the things that's interesting to me in a way when I think I think of I'm reminded of Luger stirs you know can who says elephants can't dance in a way Michael Dell is orchestrating a a different version with clear differences of that playbook and here's what I mean by that he took a company that was 100% essentially PCs and began a multi-billion dollar buying spree and transform this company into what is now the only end-to-end enterprise company now HP used to talk about that as a big deal they've given up on that now that they're going to split up what is the value to a customer in the end one this is supply chain why does the customer care about supply chain because gives you a dell pricing power so Dells got potentially one of the biggest supply chains now in the industry HP had a supply chain that was enormous but now when they split it up I don't know how they're going to continue to leverage that maybe they will maybe they won't that sounds like they won't be able to have that same leverage IBM when it sold its pc division to lenovo lost a lot of leverage gel is now able to sit claim number one in storage terabyte shipped why because it ships so many pcs it's not because of the server business it's because every PC goes out with a half a terabyte disk drive in it so add it up until kicks but all of a sudden boom number one that's interesting but from a customer standpoint you can buy virtually anything from the company now I talked about second elephants dancing you're seeing that transformation being led by a number of factors certainly servers is a big part of that and networking and storage with the big acquisitions that they've made and networking with the acquisitions that they made but also Perot gels got a big services organization that's very sticky and then the other thing which not a lot of people talk about is Dell software in fact I got a tweet earlier from somebody saying del I presume Dave I presume when you talk about Dell having one of everything you're not including software well as we know tells got a almost a two billion dollar software business now that's not ridiculously enormous but it's substantial how many how many multi-billion dollar software companies are out there so what I see is this big portfolio it's not i wouldn't say it's services lead it's not it's it's dell lead but there's a sticky services component with an increasing software component in growth areas like security like systems management like so quick tell calls information management which is a lot of the analytics and big data so jeal can continue if Dell can continue to make those acquisitions do the integrations it's got a pretty good story for customers don't you think yeah absolutely Dave and there's still it's that PC business in that server business that's generating the cash and allowing them to get into a lot of environments and trying out a lot of pieces you know the cloud broker models really interesting because we talked about it a couple of years ago and clouds are not homogeneous and it's not you know until recently moving from one environment to another was going to be difficult enter things like docker and management tools like the Australia saquisili del made are enabling some of these multi cloud environments and so we're seeing customers you know from what we see aren't going all in with one environment you know we've got a survey going on right now and some of the data we've seen so far is that you know it's not like they're saying oh I've got amazon and i'm only doing amazon most customers they're doing amazon they've got VMware inside they might be doing something with a jour because everybody's got office 365 and of course they've got lots of SAS applications so you know where does dell fit into this environment and can they be you know a broker of supplier and arms dealer for a lot of these pieces and you know how do they tie them all together how do they grow those services how do they have their software you said you know there's pieces of software they don't have they don't have you know 200 SAS applications like IBM does they don't have the breath of the amazon marketplace today but you know Dell is in a lot of customer environments especially in that you know kind of sub 5000 user you know marketplace so you know there's a lot of opportunity for Delta add on to that and I said before they can craft a story because they're not a public company that is very positive you know every CEO that is of si of a public company when he or she comes on the earnings call even if they have a Miss even if they have a quarter that they're disappointed in they spin a story and and the street that starts opening up the books and parsing the numbers and doing the analysis and the street either buys it or they don't and so what Dell can do is they can craft any story that they want and make it sound great and and create their own momentum now it sounds like they're growing but you know even today in the keynotes you got a little mix of units and dollars and terabytes and geographies and in different segments and so forth but Michael Dell was able to very effectively put together a story of growth that's been mirrored by his executive management team I'm gonna have no doubt that there's this growth segments but you think about it if IBM we're a private company they could talk about cloud they could talk about their software to find stuff they can talk about you know the security businesses those businesses that are growing and not talk about the business that are shrinking and not talk about the top line that's flatted down or whatever it is so so dell has that advantage in that they can craft a story and and and use that in their marketing to be relevant and I think that's really what customers want to know they want to know that the company I'm doing business with is relevant so they got pcs is the tip of the spear everybody knows dell pc is easy to do business with no problem they've got the services piece that's sticky and they've got everything else in between which is this end end strategy for mid-sized and smaller enterprises which really everybody else kind of pooh-poohed enough poo-poos they all they give it lip service this is this is where del really shines and so I don't know still it's gonna be interesting to see yeah David's interesting i was just ruminating on the fact that you know when you think about the early PC days del just made it so easy to buy first with a catalog and then with a website i could go in and click and choose the environments that i wanted if we look at converged infrastructure and cloud which is where the growth really is you know candle take those same type of experiences and move those to the environments and make you know those choices you know the cloud marketplace reminds me a lot of the dell S&P which was really the offering that I could buy almost anything from dell and dell would take a you know i cut even if it's a small one they didn't necessarily have to support it hugely successful drove a ton of revenue for dell so you know lots of things that they can you know to take advantage of Wow and like I say when wouldn't tell was was public they were a roughly sixty billion dollar company with with trading at fifty to sixty cents on the dollar Michael Delta and silverlake having taken that private the ultimate measure yes customer value etc etc but the real leader board is going to be what if and when tell this hides to have another exit whether that's public offering whatever what the thing to watch is will del have been able to shift its business mix toward the enterprise so that it can even trade let's say it one to one if so it can it could it could create 30 billion dollars of value you know then that Michael the open 75% of saw to me it was just a brilliant move this company is still a cash flow machine you know these big companies that aren't growing that Wall Street seems to hate for some reason even Corey MC these are cash flow machines Oracle cash flow machine IBM HP cash flow machines that if they have good leadership they can transform their businesses into a success story alright well getting kicked out of here still look tomorrow we start at 830am the cube would be live SiliconANGLE TV check out Wikibon org check out SiliconANGLE calm for all the news we'll see you tomorrow this is the cubes two minima and Dave vellante we're out see you tomorrow