>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Ansible Fest 2020, brought to you by Red Hat. >> Everyone welcome back to theCUBEs, virtual coverage of Ansible Fest 2020. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE, we're here virtual, we're not face to face obviously because of COVID. So we're doing a virtual event Ansible Fest coverage. We have Mary Johnston Turner, research Vice President of Cloud Management at IDC international data Corp. Mary great to see you, thanks for coming on for Ansible Fest 2020. >> Thanks for inviting me. >> So obviously Cloud Management, everything's Cloud native we're seeing that at VM world, we've got Re-invent coming up, Azure has got growth. The enterprises have gotten some religion on Cloud Native, COVID certainly is forcing that. What are you seeing from your research at IDC around the convergence of Cloud strategies. What's the data tell you, what's the research show? >> Well, obviously with COVID a lot of folks have pivoted or accelerated their move to the Cloud in many ways. And I think what's happening is that we're seeing many, many organizations recognizing they continue to have need for On-prem resources. They're building out edge, they've got remote work from home, they've got traditional VM workloads, They've got modern Cloud Native container-based workloads running On-Prem and in public Clouds and public Cloud services. So it's really kind of a striking world of connected Clouds is how I'm talking about it increasingly. And I think what that means from an operational perspective is that it's getting more and more challenging for organizations to maintain consistent configuration, stable APIs, security, compliance and conformance. And they're really starting to look at Automation as the way to deal with the increasing scale and velocity of change because that's one of the things that's happening. And I think COVID accelerated that is we've seen organizations stand up applications they never thought they were going to have to stand up and they not only stood them up very quickly, but then they continue to update them with great frequency often multiple times a day or a week. And and the infrastructure has had to pivot and the workloads have had to migrate. So it's really been a very challenging time for many organizations. And I think those that are coping the best with it are the ones who have been investing in Automation particularly Automation in CICD pipeline and code based environment. >> Yeah, you know, you're seeing the releases, obviously Automation has helped on the agile side, VMs and containers have been a great way to automate, how are customers looking at this? Because it seems to be Automation is like the first step towards everything as a service, right? So it's XAAS as it's says, as it's called in the industry. Services is ultimately the holy grail in all this because you get, when the Automation and services used to be Automation, Automation, Automation. Now you're hearing as a service, as a service, as a service as the top three priorities. So it seems to be a trajectory. How are customers getting first of all... Do you agree with that? And then how do customers think about this? Cause sometimes we're ahead of the customers. Automation is the first step. What's your take on this, and what are customers planning when it comes to Automation? Are they thinking as a service? What'd you hearing from the customers? >> Let's talk a little bit about what we mean by as a service. Cause that's a really interesting concept, right? And I've been hearing this conversation with folks as a service started a decade or more ago, taking things that particularly software that ran On-prem infrastructure or software. And putting it into share Data Centers where we could run Multi tenant Environments we could scale it, and each Cloud provider basically got that scale by investing in their own set of infrastructure Automation. So whether it was Azure or VMware or whoever, they build a whole repeatable, scalable environment that they could control. What's happening now is that we're seeing these control planes get stretched back to On-prem resources. And I think what's really happening is that the line about where does the thing physically have to run? Becomes more of a discussion around the physics of the matter, Latency, Data Volumes, transaction processing cost of installed equipment. And every organization is making its own choice about what's the right mix, in terms of where physically do things have to run, and how they want to manage them. But I think that we're starting to see a abstraction layer coming in between that. And a lot of that abstraction is Automation that's portable that can be applied across all these environments. And that can be used to standardize configurations, to maintain standard APIs, to deploy at very fast speed and consistency across all these different resources. And so Automation and the related management layer to me is that new abstraction layer that actually is going to allow most enterprises to stop worrying quite so much about (chuckles) what kind of as a service am I buying? And focus more on the economics and the performance and the physics of the infrastructure, and then maintain consistency with highly Automated, Repeatable, Programmable Style Environments that are consistent across all these different platforms. >> Yeah, that's a great point. It's great insight, I love that. It's almost, as you can almost visualize the boardroom. We need to change our business model as a service. Go do it, climb that hill, get it done, what are you talking about? What you're trying to manage workloads inside our enterprise and outside as they started looking at the workload aspect of it, it's not trivial to just say it, right? So your containers has barely filled the void here. How are customers and how are people getting started with this initial building block of saying okay, do we just containerize it? Cause that's another hand waving activity which has a lot of traction. Also you put some containers has got some goodness to it, are many people getting started with solving this problem? And what are some of the roadblocks of just managing these workloads inside and outside the enterprise? >> Well, again I think, yeah many organizations are still in the early stages of working with containers. Right now I think our research shows that maybe five to 10% of applications have been containerized. And that's a mix of lift and shift of traditional workloads as well as net new Cloud Native. Over the next couple of years almost enterprise has tell us to think a third of their workloads could be containerized. So it's ramping very, very quickly. Again, I think that the goal for many organizations is certainly containers allow for faster development, very supportive microservices, but increasingly it's also about portability. I talk to many organizations that say, yeah, one of the reasons I'm moving, even traditional workloads into containers is so that I have that flexibility. And again, they're trying to get away from the tight coupling of workloads to physical resources and saying I'm going to make those choices, but they might change over time or I might need to go what happens. I have to scale much faster than I ever thought. I'm never going to be able to do that my own data center, I'm going to go to the Cloud. So I think that we're seeing increasing investments in, Kubernetes and containers to promote more rapid scaling and increased business agility. And again, I think that means that organizations are looking for those workloads to run across a whole set of environments, geographies, physical locations, edge. And so they're investing in platforms and they count on Automation to help them do that. >> So your point here is that in five, 10% that's a lot of growth opportunity. So containers is actually happening now so you starting to see that progression. So that's great insight. So I've got to ask you on the COVID impact, that's certainly changed some orientation because hey, this project let's double down on this is a tailwind for us, work from home this new environment and these projects, maybe we want to wait on those, how do we come out of COVID? Some people have been saying, some spending in some areas are increasing, some are not, how are customers spending money on infrastructure with COVID impact? What are you seeing from the numbers? >> Well, that's a great question, and I do see one of the major things we do is track IT markets and spending and purchasing around the world. And as you might expect, if you go back to the early part of the year, there was a very rapid shift to Cloud, particularly to support work from home. And obviously there was a lot of investment in virtual desktops and remote work kinds of and collaboration very early on. But now that we're sort of maturing a little bit and moving into more of ongoing recovery resiliency sort of phase, we continue to see very strong spending on Cloud. I think overall it's accelerated this move to more connected environments. Many of the new initiatives are being built and deployed in Cloud environments. But again, we're not seeing a Whole Hog exit from On-prem resources. The other thing is Edge. We're seeing a lot of growth on Edge, both again there's sort of work from home, but also more remote monitoring, more support for all kinds of IOT and remote work environments, whether it's Lab Testing or Data Analysis or Contact Tracing. I mean, there's just so many different use cases. >> I'm going to ask you about Ansible and Red Hat. I see you've been following Ansible since the acquisition by Red Hat. How do you think they're doing Visa Vie the market, their competitors that have also been acquired? What's your take on their performance, their transition, their transformation? >> Well, this infrastructure is code or Automation is code market has really matured a lot over the last 10 or more years. And I think the Ansible acquisition was about five years ago now. I think we've moved from just focusing on trying to build elegant Automation languages, which certainly was an early initiative. Ansible offered one of the earlier human readable Python based approaches as opposed to more challenging programming languages that some of the earlier solutions had. But I think what's been really interesting to me over the last couple years with Red Hat is just what a great job they've done in promoting the community and building out that ecosystem, because at the end of the day the value of any of these infrastructures code solutions is how much they promote the connectivity across networks, Clouds, servers, security, and do that in a consistent, scalable way. And I think that's what really is going to matter going forward. And then that's probably why you've seen a range of acquisitions in this market over the last couple of years, is that as a standalone entity, it's hard to build those really robust ecosystems, and to do the analytics and the curation and the support at large scale. So it kind of makes sense as these things mature that they become fun homes with larger organizations that can put all that value around it. >> That's great commentary on the infrastructure as code, I totally agree. You can't go wrong by building abstraction layers and making things more agile. I want to get your take on some announcements that are going on here and get your thoughts on your perspective. Obviously they released with the private Automation hub and a bunch of other great stuff. I mean, bringing Automation, Kubernetes, and series of new features to the platform together, obviously continuation of their mission. But one of the things when I talked to the engineers is I say, what's the top three things, Ansible Fest, legal collections, collections, collections, so you start to see this movement around collections and the platform. The other thing is, it's a tool market and everyone's got tools we need a platform. So it's a classic tools. As you saw that in big data other areas where need start getting into platform, and you need management and orchestration you need Automation, services. What's your perspective on these announcements? Have they been investing aggressively? What does it mean? What's your take? And what does it mean? >> Yeah, I would agree that Red Hat has continued to invest very aggressively in Red Hat and in Ansible over the last few years. What's really interesting is if you go back a couple years, we had ASML engine, which included periodic, maybe every quarter or even longer than that distributions that pretty much all Ansible code got shipped on. And then we had tower which provided an API and a way to do some audit and logging and integration with source control. And that was great, but it didn't move fast enough. And we just got done talking about how everything's accelerated and everything's now connected Clouds. And I think a lot of what the Red Hat has done is really, approach the architecture for scale and ecosystem for scale. And so the collections have been really important because they provide a framework to not only validate and curate content but also to help customers navigate it and can quickly find the best content for their use cases. And also for the partners to engage, there's I think it's 50 plus collections now that are focused on partner content. And so it's I think it's really provided an environment where the ecosystem can grow, where customers can get the support that they need. And then with the Automation hub and the ability to support really robust source control and distribution. And again, it's promoting this idea of an Automation environment that can scale not only within a data center, but really across these connected environments. >> Great stuff. I want to get your thoughts cause I want to define and understand what Red Hat and Ansible, when they talk about curated content, which includes support for open shifts, versus pulling content from the community. I hear content I'm like, oh, content is that a video? Is that like, what is content? So can you explain what they mean when they say they're currently building out, aggressively building curated content and this idea of what does content mean? Is it content, is it code? >> Yeah, I think any of these Automation as code environments. You really have a set of building blocks that in the Ansible framework would be be modules and playbooks and roles. And those are relatively small stable pieces of code, much of it is actually written by third parties or folks in the community to do a very specific task. And then what the Ansible platform is really great at is integrating those modules and playbooks and roles to create much more robust Automations and to give folks a starting point, and ability to do, rather than having to code everything from scratch to really kind of pull together things that have been validated have been tested, get security updates when they need it that kind of thing. And so the customers can focus on essentially changing these things together and customizing them for their own environment as opposed to having to write all the code from step one. >> So content means what, in this context, what does content mean for them? >> It's Automation building blocks. It's code, it's small amounts of code that do very specific things (chuckles) and in a collections environment, it's tagged, it's tested, it's supported. >> It's not a research report like of a Cube video, it's like code, it's not content. >> Yeah, I know. But again, this is Automation as code, right? So it it's pieces of code that rather than needing an expert who understands everything about how a particular device or system works, you've got reusable pieces of code that can be integrated together, customized and run on a repeatable, scalable basis. And if they need to be updated cause an API changes or something, there's a chain that goes back to the the vendors who, again are part of the ecosystem and then there's a validation and testing. So that by the time it goes back into the collections, the customers can have some confidence that when they pull it down, it's not going to break their whole environment. Whereas in a pure community supported model, the contents made by the community, may be beautiful, but you don't know, and you could have five submissions that kind of do the same thing. How do you know what's going to work and what's going to be stable? So it's a lot of helping organizations get Automation faster in a more stable environment. >> We can certainly follow up on this train cause one of things I've been digging into is this idea of, open source and contribution, integrations are huge. The collections to me is super important because when we start thinking about integration that's one of Cloud native, supposedly strength is to be horizontally scalable, integrated, building abstraction layers as you had pointed out. So I've got to ask you with respect to open source. I was just talking with a bunch of founders yesterday here in Silicon Valley around as Cloud scales and certainly you seeing snowflake build on top of AWS. I mean, that's an amazing success story. You're starting to see these new innovations where the Cloud scale providers are providing great value propositions and the role open source is trying to keep pace. And so I got to ask you is still open source, let me say I believe it's important, but how does open source maintain its relevance as Cloud scale goes on? Because that's going to force Automation to go faster. Okay, and you got the major Cloud vendors promoting their own Cloud platforms. Yet you got the innovation of startups and companies. Your enterprises are starting to act like startups as container starts to get through this lift and shift phase. You'll see innovation coming from enterprises as well as startups. So you start to see this notion bring real value on top of these Clouds. What's your take on all this? >> Well, I think open source and the communities continue to be very, very important, particularly at the infrastructure layer, because to get all this innovation that you're talking about, you act, if you believe you've got a connected environment where folks are going to have different footprints and, and probably, you know, more than one public Cloud set of resources, it's only going to, the value is only going to be delivered if the workloads are portable, they're stable, they can be integrated, they can be secure. And so I think that the open source communities have become, you know, continue to be an incredibly important as a way to get industry alignment and shared innovation on the, on the platform and infrastructure and operational levels. And I think that that's, you know, going to be, be something that we're going to see for a long time. >> Well Mary, I really appreciate your insights, I got one final question, but I'll just give you a plug for the folks watching, check out Mary's work at IDC, really cutting edge and super important as Cloud management really is at the heart of all the, whether it's multicloud, on-premise hybrid or full Cloud lift and shift or Cloud native, management plays a huge important role right now. That's where the action is. You looking at the container growth as Mary you pointed out is great. So I have to ask you what comes next. What do you think management will do relative to Cloud management, as it evolves in these priority environments around Cloud, around on-premise as the operations start to move along, containers are critical. You talked about the growth is only five, 10%, a lot of headroom there. How is management going to evolve? >> Well, again, I think a lot of it is going to be is everything has to move faster. And that means that Automation actually becomes more and more important, but we're going to have to move from Automation at human speed to Automation at container and Cloud speed. And that means a lot is going to have to be driven by AI and ML analytics that can and observability solutions. So I think that that's going to be the next way is taking these, you know, very diverse sources of, of log and metrics and application traces and performance and end user experience and all these different things that tell us, how is the application actually running and how is the infrastructure behaving? And then putting together an analytics and Automation layer that can be a very autonomous. We have at IDC for doing a lot of research on the future of digital infrastructure. And this is a really fundamental tenant of what we believe is that autonomous operations is the future for a Cloud and IT. >> Final point for our friends out there and your friends out there watching who some are on the cutting edge, riding the big wave of Cloud native, they're at Cube calm, they're digging in, they're at service meshes, Kubernetes containers, you name it. And for the folks who have just been kind of grinding it out, an it operations, holding down the Fort, running the networks, running all the apps. What advice do you give the IT skillset friends out there that are watching. What should they be doing? What's your advice to them, Mary? >> Well, you know, we're going to continue to see the convergence of, of virtualized and container based infrastructure operations. So I think anyone out there that is in those sorts of roles really needs to be getting comfortable with programmatic code driven Automation and, and figuring out how to think about operations from more of a policy and scale scalability, point of view. Increasingly, you know, if you believe what I just said about the role of analytics driving Automation, it's going to have to be based on something, right? There's going to have to be rules. There's going to have to be policies is going to have to be, you know, configuration standards. And so kind of making that shift to not thinking so much about, you know, the one off lovingly handcrafted, handcrafted environment, thinking about how do we scale, how do we program it and starting to get comfort with, with some of these tools, like an Ansible, which is designed to be pretty accessible by folks with a large range of skillsets, it's human readable, it's Python based. You don't have to be a computer science major to be able to get started with it. So I think that that's what many folks have to do is start to think about expanding their skill sets to operate at even greater scale and speed. >> Mary, thanks so much for your time. Mary Johnston Turner, Vice President of Research at Cloud for Cloud management at IDC for the Ansible Fest virtual. I'm John Ferrier with theCUBE for cube coverage, cube virtual coverage of Ansible Fest, 2020 virtual. Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AnsibleFest, 2020. Brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage of AnsibleFest 2020 Virtual. I'm John Furrier with Jeff Frick, my co-host this week. Day two keynote coverage, Jeff. Good to hear all the great commentary, good stuff great to see you. >> Yeah. You too, John. You know it is a great way to start the day too, with Chris Riley and you've interviewed him a ton. I've interviewed him a ton. I don't know how many times he's been on theCUBE but he's, he's such a sharp guy and he's very articulate. And he speaks in really simple analogies. And it's really easy to keep track of what he's talking about and really focusing on the edge, you know, and he even broke down what exactly is the edge. And he said it very simply right, you just moving compute to the location where the data is gathered, as well as words consumed. And he had a great example of, of, you know, an edge device on a railroad track, keep the track of the trains. And how do you manage that? How do you keep track of it? If there's a problem with it, how do you, how do you fix it so that you can use these, these devices out on the edge to, you know, provide the data and the telemetry to avoid things like everyone trying to avoid. Like unplanned maintenance and unplanned downtime or potentially having some little issue that forces you to reroute a bunch of the trains and you can't get out there to fix it for so much time. So, really bringing this intelligence to the EDS and being able to bring that compute there. Still supported by a data center for a lot of stuff but really again, just fundamentally moving compute to the edge, loves this story. >> Yeah, yeah. Chris is a great, great guy, CTO of Red Hat. We've been here many times in theCUBE. Keep alumni tech athlete as we say, but if you think about it, I mean, we go back to OpenStack. When we first started interviewing Chris. And what's interesting, Jeff of this keynote is, 5G and edge was a big part of it. If you look at the rise of the telco cloud, that was Pat Gelsinger at VMworld, just recently. Talked about this telco cloud. And if you look at kind of what's going on, OpenStack was supposedly dead by Amazon. OpenStack really has brought in the whole private cloud or the telco cloud. If you look at where OpenStack has been successful over the years. You get this new rise of the telco cloud. Okay. If you bring that in, again, bring back Pat Gelsinger, his comment around how telco and 5G is a B to B app, not a B to C. Businesses will be leveraging 5G. And that is clearly an IOT use case. The internet of things at the edge is going to be people, devices, everything. Purpose-built to programmable. And so this is a huge positioning shift in the marketplace as companies have to level up and figure out the edge. So, you know, Chris nails it, in my opinion. If you want to innovate, you've got to automate at the edge. This again is a nice tailwind for Red Hat and Ansible because it brings the Ansible automation in, with open shift and all the work that they've been doing over the years. So, it kind of is a coming home if you will, for all the work from OpenStack to open shift, to public hybrid and now multi-cloud and with private cloud aka the telco cloud. So, this is a fundamental change. I think 5G is going to be a real go-bigger-go-home, moment, I think.(chuckles) I'm praying that it's going to be faster, cheaper, smaller for us consumers, but companies got to get on this. And the pandemic has shown that connectivity security is required. And this is only going to put more pressure on the networks. It's just going to be incredible. I think he hit a home-run with the keynote. I'm super glad Red Hat's thinking this way because it really shows what I think the future will be. >> Yeah. Another thing that Chris talked on actually took some notes here. I, I just want to quote from my notes, is he talked about automation, right. A lot of this automation is the theme we hear about, automation all the time. But he had an interesting quote that it's more than a tool but a process, the constant process on and on. That you need to embed automation as a fundamental component or the organization. And I thought that was really interesting, right. We hear this over and over about so many themes, right. It's not, it's not a destination, it's a journey. And to really think about automation, in more of the context of a journey where you can input it in, as many processes as you can. Now, we had a great interview with, you know, Google, way back when talking about trying to get all the the lameness out of everyday jobs, right. To do the automate, the minutia, I think was the quote. So, that people can get on to higher value things. So, I thought it was a really interesting take-tip, to take out of a higher level view of automation and think about applying it in as many places as you possibly can. And it is a journey versus, you know, a one-stop shop. You put it in and move on to your next task. >> Yeah, that's a great point about the organizational impact. Because if you think about and again, he kind of addressed this in the keynote. And it's kind of sprinkled throughout the theme but also we've been reporting on it through theCUBE interviews. Is that it's, it's connecting through that last mile automation at scale. That's a core message we've heard. That's the capabilities of the tech. But the skills gap and the skills to actually address these challenges of the IOT edge with 5G, are being developed. Cybersecurity, space, DevOps, secops. These are skill areas, was not enough people to do the job and there's more automation coming. So you need, again skills gap, so organizations will address that. And finally, trust and security are huge. So you got the, you know, the capabilities, the skillset and trust and security. Because if you got to have these devices, whether they're purpose built or software defined, this truly impacts an organization. Not just by having the speeds and feeds, the trust and security, and then the skills. Who's going to build it? Who's going to implement it? Who's going to manage it? This is all a whole new generation. And this is what's clearly coming out of all the data we're seeing in the market. It's not just the edge it's, it's everything to do with this kind of like last mile, IOT piece. And it's large scale. So, it's not going away. >> Right. And Matt Jones touched about on that a little bit. And he's, in his keynote as well, talking about using automation to build community. And to your point, John, it comes up over and over in all those keynotes is trust, trust, trust, right. You have to trust the people that you're working with so that you can build community. And you know that they're going to do their part of the job, and you can do your part of the job. And the way you build trust is with collaboration, so that you can cross those barriers whether it's interdepartmental, or I think the, one of the lines from the keynotes was, you know, between Dev and networking. He talks about them being locked up, you know, behind special magnetic locks and hard to get to. So, if you can't get to them, you can't collaborate with them, hard to build trust. So really I think it's again, an interesting twist to use automation as a vehicle to build trust. Really important concept. Again, as you said, in, in 2020 as we come to the end of 2020 and into 2021, you know, COVID has changed the dynamic of DevOps and the way DevOps teams work and how they work, and what they measure and how they collaborate. So if you don't have trust that puts you in a real bad spot. >> Well, trust is multiple dimensions. Right. You mentioned the people side but also infrastructure as code. One of the ethos of DevOps is, you got to trust the infrastructure. If you're coding and programming the infrastructure, you got to understand that that infrastructure as code is going to work. And they'll contain the workloads or, or still only about 15% penetrated give or take, IDC says. So, more containerization is going to happen. More infrastructures' code is going to happen. You need trust there. And what we're hearing at the show here is and kind of teased out the keynote is, customers are thinking about the, their infrastructure automation strategy. But open source still matters. And that's where the trust comes in. The automation space in light of other major cloud vendors promoting their own platforms. Cross cloud integration and automation are starting to become key things that people are starting to talk about. Not just AWS public cloud, you've got Azure, Google and other clouds. As customers start thinking about the trust relationship and open source, this has been kind of becoming a big point. So, you know, hope being open is the way to go. That's where open source is. So I think, the trust equation will be very interesting to see how that plays out. Not only on the infrastructure as code, from a resiliency standpoint and scale, but open source when you add the people component and this collections and content, it's going to be very interesting to see how that all plays out. >> Yeah, it's, it's going to be a good show. And the other thing is that it still feels, it still really feels like Ansible, right. It's still really feels like Red Hat. It doesn't feel like the, you know, kind of the IBM acquisition has had a material impact in the way that they go to market, and the way that the community engages and, and just kind of the voice to me. Still sounds pretty consistent. So you know, good for IBM for, you know, taking a great asset and letting it continue to, continue to run. >> Yep. Well, the thing that I'm looking for at going forward, coming out of this event, is the big mega trend on the business model side is everything is a service also called XAAS. We're hearing that from Cisco, VMware, everyone's talking about everything as a service. And it's easier to give a mandate, "Oh, everything is a service. Jeff, go build it out. Everything is a surge." You go, "Okay." The you go, "Okay, how do we make that happen?" It's not trivial. So you have clustering, you have multi clusters, policy governance. All the things under the covers of making everything as a service, you need automation. And I think the conversation will shift from automation, automation, automation to services, services, services. Because to get to anything as a service, you got to have the under, underpinnings, you got to have the data, you got to have the automation. These are critical architectural foundational things. And you can start to hear that from some of the influencers in the industry. Automation is great, but to get to the services as everything is a service, it's kind of work.(chuckles) It's easier to say. It's hard to do. And we'll keep an eye on that. >> All right. Great. Well, John, again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. We will jump into the program and hear from of the great folks at Ansible and some of their fantastic guests for this continuing coverage of theCUBE, at AnsibleFest 2020. Ready, John? >> All right. Let's do it. A lot of great interviews. Stay with us. >> Jeff: Alright. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)