(bright music) >> Okay, we're back in theCUBE. We said we were signing off for the night, but during the hallway track, we ran into old friend Stu Miniman who was the Director of Market Insights at Red Hat. Stu, friend of theCUBE done the thousands of CUBE interviews. >> Dave, it's great to be here. Thanks for pulling me on, you and I hosted Red Hat Summit before. It's great to see Paul here. I was actually, I was talking to some of the Red Hatters walking around Boston. It's great to have an event here. Boston's got strong presence and I understand, I think was either first or second year, they had it over... What's the building they're tearing down right down the road here. Was that the World Trade Center? I think that's where they actually held it, the first time they were here. We hosted theCUBE >> So they moved up. >> at the Hines Convention Center. We did theCUBE for summit at the BCEC next door. And of course, with the pandemic being what it was, we're a little smaller, nice intimate event here. It's great to be able to room the hall, see a whole bunch of people and lots watching online. >> It's great, it's around the same size as those, remember those Vertica Big Data events that we used to have here. And I like that you were commenting out at the theater and the around this morning for the keynotes, that was good. And the keynotes being compressed, I think, is real value for the attendees, you know? 'Cause people come to these events, they want to see each other, you know? They want to... It's like the band getting back together. And so when you're stuck in the keynote room, it's like, "Oh, it's okay, it's time to go." >> I don't know that any of us used to sitting at home where I could just click to another tab or pause it or run for, do something for the family, or a quick bio break. It's the three-hour keynote I hope has been retired. >> But it's an interesting point though, that the virtual event really is driving the physical and this, the way Red Hat marketed this event was very much around the virtual attendee. Physical was almost an afterthought, so. >> Right, this is an invite only for in-person. So you're absolutely right. It's optimizing the things that are being streamed, the online audience is the big audience. And we just happy to be in here to clap and do some things see around what you're doing. >> Wonderful see that becoming the norm. >> I think like virtual Stu, you know this well when virtual first came in, nobody had a clue with what they were doing. It was really hard. They tried different things, they tried to take the physical and just jam it into the virtual. That didn't work, they tried doing fun things. They would bring in a famous person or a comedian. And that kind of worked, I guess, but everybody showed up for that and then left. And I think they're trying to figure it out what this hybrid thing is. I've seen it both ways. I've seen situations like this, where they're really sensitive to the virtual. I've seen others where that's the FOMO of the physical, people want physical. So, yeah, I think it depends. I mean, reinvent last year was heavy physical. >> Yeah, with 15,000 people there. >> Pretty long keynotes, you know? So maybe Amazon can get away with it, but I think most companies aren't going to be able to. So what is the market telling you? What are these insights? >> So Dave just talking about Amazon, obviously, the world I live in cloud and that discussion of cloud, the journey that customers are going on is where we're spending a lot of the discussions. So, it was great to hear in the keynote, talked about our deep partnerships with the cloud providers and what we're doing to help people with, you like to call it super cloud, some call it hybrid, or multi-cloud... >> New name. (crosstalk) Meta-Cloud, come on. >> All right, you know if Che's my executive, so it's wonderful. >> Love it. >> But we'll see, if I could put on my VR Goggles and that will help me move things. But I love like the partnership announcement with General Motors today because not every company has the needs of software driven electric vehicles all over the place. But the technology that we build for them actually has ramifications everywhere. We've working to take Kubernetes and make it smaller over time. So things that we do at the edge benefit the cloud, benefit what we do in the data center, it's that advancement of science and technology just lifts all boats. >> So what's your take on all this? The EV and software on wheels. I mean, Tesla obviously has a huge lead. It's kind of like the Amazon of vehicles, right? It's sort of inspired a whole new wave of innovation. Now you've got every automobile manufacturer kind of go and after. That is the future of vehicles is something you followed or something you have an opinion on Stu? >> Absolutely. It's driving innovation in some ways, the way the DOS drove innovation on the desktop, if you remember the 64K DOS limit, for years, that was... The software developers came up with some amazing ways to work within that 64K limit. Then when it was gone, we got bloatware, but it actually does enforce a level of discipline on you to try to figure out how to make software run better, run more efficiently. And that has upstream impacts on the enterprise products. >> Well, right. So following your analogy, you talk about the enablement to the desktop, Linux was a huge influence on allowing the individual person to write code and write software, and what's happening in the EV, it's software platform. All of these innovations that we're seeing across industries, it's how is software transforming things. We go back to the mark end reasons, software's eating the world, open source is the way that software is developed. Who's at the intersection of all those? We think we have a nice part to play in that. I loved tha- Dave, I don't know if you caught at the end of the keynote, Matt Hicks basically said, "Our mission isn't just to write enterprise software. "Our mission is based off of open source because open source unlocks innovation for the world." And that's one of the things that drew me to Red Hat, it's not just tech in good places, but allowing underrepresented, different countries to participate in what's happening with software. And we can all move that ball forward. >> Well, can we declare victory for open source because it's not just open source products, but everything that's developed today, whether proprietary or open has open source in it. >> Paul, I agree. Open source is the development model period, today. Are there some places that there's proprietary? Absolutely. But I had a discussion with Deepak Singh who's been on theCUBE many times. He said like, our default is, we start with open source code. I mean, even Amazon when you start talking about that. >> I said this, the $70 billion business on open source. >> Exactly. >> Necessarily give it back, but that say, Hey, this is... All's fair in tech and more. >> It is interesting how the managed service model has sort of rescued open source, open source companies, that were trying to do the Red Hat model. No one's ever really successfully duplicated the Red Hat model. A lot of companies were floundering and failing. And then the managed service option came along. And so now they're all cloud service providers. >> So the only thing I'd say is that there are some other peers we have in the industry that are built off open source they're doing okay. The recent example, GitLab and Hashicorp, both went public. Hashi is doing some managed services, but it's not the majority of their product. Look at a company like Mongo, they've heavily pivoted toward the managed service. It is where we see the largest growth in our area. The products that we have again with Amazon, with Microsoft, huge growth, lots of interest. It's one of the things I spend most of my time talking on. >> I think Databricks is another interesting example 'cause Cloudera was the now company and they had the sort of open core, and then they had the proprietary piece, and they've obviously didn't work. Databricks when they developed Spark out of Berkeley, everybody thought they were going to do kind of a similar model. Instead, they went for all in managed services. And it's really worked well, I think they were ahead of that curve and you're seeing it now is it's what customers want. >> Well, I mean, Dave, you cover the database market pretty heavily. How many different open source database options are there today? And that's one of the things we're solving. When you look at what is Red Hat doing in the cloud? Okay, I've got lots of databases. Well, we have something called, it's Red Hat Open Database Access, which is from a developer, I don't want to have to think about, I've got six different databases, which one, where's the repository? How does all that happen? We give that consistency, it's tied into OpenShift, so it can help abstract some of those pieces. we've got same Kafka streaming and we've got APIs. So it's frameworks and enablers to help bridge that gap between the complexity that's out there, in the cloud and for the developer tool chain. >> That's really important role you guys play though because you had this proliferation, you mentioned Mongo. So many others, Presto and Starbursts, et cetera, so many other open source options out there now. And companies, developers want to work with multiple databases within the same application. And you have a role in making that easy. >> Yeah, so and that is, if you talk about the question I get all the time is, what's next for Kubernetes? Dave, you and I did a preview for KubeCon and it's automation and simplicity that we need to be. It's not enough to just say, "Hey, we've got APIs." It's like Dave, we used to say, "We've got standards? Great." Everybody's implementation was a little bit different. So we have API Sprawl today. So it's building that ecosystem. You've been talking to a number of our partners. We are very active in the community and trying to do things that can lift up the community, help the developers, help that cloud native ecosystem, help our customers move faster. >> Yeah API's better than scripts, but they got to be managed, right? So, and that's really what you guys are doing that's different. You're not trying to own everything, right? It's sort of antithetical to how billions and trillions are made in the IT industry. >> I remember a few years ago we talked here, and you look at the size that Red Hat is. And the question is, could Red Hat have monetized more if the model was a little different? It's like, well maybe, but that's not the why. I love that they actually had Simon Sinek come in and work with Red Hat and that open, unlocks the world. Like that's the core, it's the why. When I join, they're like, here's a book of Red Hat, you can get it online and that why of what we do, so we never have to think of how do we get there. We did an acquisition in the security space a year ago, StackRox, took us a year, it's open source. Stackrox.io, it's community driven, open source project there because we could have said, "Oh, well, yeah, it's kind of open source and there's pieces that are open source, but we want it to be fully open source." You just talked to Gunnar about how he's RHEL nine, based off CentOS stream, and now developing out in the open with that model, so. >> Well, you were always a big fan of Whitehurst culture book, right? It makes a difference. >> The open organization and right, Red Hat? That culture is special. It's definitely interesting. So first of all, most companies are built with the hierarchy in mind. Had a friend of mine that when he joined Red Hat, he's like, I don't understand, it's almost like you have like lots of individual contractors, all doing their things 'cause Red Hat works on thousands of projects. But I remember talking to Rackspace years ago when OpenStack was a thing and they're like, "How do you figure out what to work on?" "Oh, well we hired great people and they work on what's important to them." And I'm like, "That doesn't sound like a business." And he is like, "Well, we struggle sometimes to that balance." Red Hat has found that balance because we work on a lot of different projects and there are people inside Red Hat that are, you know, they care more about the project than they do the business, but there's the overall view as to where we participate and where we productize because we're not creating IP because it's all an open source. So it's the monetizations, the relationships we have our customers, the ecosystems that we build. And so that is special. And I'll tell you that my line has been Red Hat on the inside is even more Red Hat. The debates and the discussions are brutal. I mean, technical people tearing things apart, questioning things and you can't be thin skinned. And the other thing is, what's great is new people. I've talked to so many people that started at Red Hat as interns and will stay for seven, eight years. And they come there and they have as much of a seat at the table, and when I talk to new people, your job, is if you don't understand something or you think we might be able to do it differently, you better speak up because we want your opinion and we'll take that, everybody takes that into consideration. It's not like, does the decision go all the way up to this executive? And it's like, no, it's done more at the team. >> The cultural contrast between that and your parent, IBM, couldn't be more dramatic. And we talked earlier with Paul Cormier about has IBM really walked the walk when it comes to leaving Red Hat alone. Naturally he said, "Yes." Well what's your perspective. >> Yeah, are there some big blue people across the street or something I heard that did this event, but look, do we interact with IBM? Of course. One of the reasons that IBM and IBM Services, both products and services should be able to help get us breadth in the marketplace. There are times that we go arm and arm into customer meetings and there are times that customers tell us, "I like Red Hat, I don't like IBM." And there's other ones that have been like, "Well, I'm a long time IBM, I'm not sure about Red Hat." And we have to be able to meet all of those customers where they are. But from my standpoint, I've got a Red Hat badge, I've got a Red Hat email, I've got Red Hat benefits. So we are fiercely independent. And you know, Paul, we've done blogs and there's lots of articles been written is, Red Hat will stay Red Hat. I didn't happen to catch Arvin I know was on CNBC today and talking at their event, but I'm sure Red Hat got mentioned, but... >> Well, he talks about Red Hat all time. >> But in his call he's talking backwards. >> It's interesting that he's not here, greeting this audience, right? It's again, almost by design, right? >> But maybe that's supposed to be... >> Hundreds of yards away. >> And one of the questions being in the cloud group is I'm not out pitching IBM Cloud, you know? If a customer comes to me and asks about, we have a deep partnership and IBM will be happy to tell you about our integrations, as opposed to, I'm happy to go into a deep discussion of what we're doing with Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. So that's how we do it. It's very different Dave, from you and I watch really closely the VMware-EMC, VMware-Dell, and how that relationship. This one is different. We are owned by IBM, but we mostly, it does IBM fund initiatives and have certain strategic things that are done, absolutely. But we maintain Red Hat. >> But there are similarities. I mean, VMware crowd didn't want to talk about EMC, but they had to, they were kind of forced to. Whereas, you're not being forced to. >> And then once Dell came in there, it was joint product development. >> I always thought a spin in. Would've been the more effective, of course, Michael Dell and Egon wouldn't have gotten their $40 billion out. But I think a spin in was more natural based on where they were going. And it would've been, I think, a more dominant position in the marketplace. They would've had more software, but again, financially it wouldn't have made as much sense, but that whole dynamic is different. I mean, but people said they were going to look at VMware as a model and it's been largely different because remember, VMware of course was a separate company, now is a fully separate company. Red Hat was integrated, we thought, okay, are they going to get blue washed? We're watching and watching, and watching, you had said, well, if the Red Hat culture isn't permeating IBM, then it's a failure. And I don't know if that's happening, but it's definitely... >> I think a long time for that. >> It's definitely been preserved. >> I mean, Dave, I know I read one article at the beginning of the year is, can Arvin make IBM, Microsoft Junior? Follow the same turnaround that Satya Nadella drove over there. IBM I think making some progress, I mean, I read and watch what you and the team are all writing about it. And I'll withhold judgment on IBM. Obviously, there's certain financial things that we'd love to see IBM succeed. We worry about our business. We do our thing and IBM shares our results and they've been solid, so. >> Microsoft had such massive cash flow that even bomber couldn't screw it up. Well, I mean, this is true, right? I mean, you think about how were relevant Microsoft was in the conversation during his tenure and yet they never got really... They maintained a position so that when the Nadella came in, they were able to reascend and now are becoming that dominant player. I mean, IBM just doesn't have that cash flow and that luxury, but I mean, if he pulls it off, he'll be the CEO of the decade. >> You mentioned partners earlier, big concern when the acquisition was first announced, was that the Dells and the HP's and the such wouldn't want to work with Red Hat anymore, you've sort of been here through that transition. Is that an issue? >> Not that I've seen, no. I mean, the hardware suppliers, the ISVs, the GSIs are all very important. It was great to see, I think you had Accenture on theCUBE today, obviously very important partner as we go to the cloud. IBM's another important partner, not only for IBM Cloud, but IBM Services, deep partnership with Azure and AWS. So those partners and from a technology standpoint, the cloud native ecosystem, we talked about, it's not just a Red Hat product. I constantly have to talk about, look, we have a lot of pieces, but your developers are going to have other tools that they're going to use and the security space. There is no such thing as a silver bullet. So I've been having some great conversations here already this week with some of our partners that are helping us to round out that whole solution, help our customers because it has to be, it's an ecosystem. And we're one of the drivers to help that move forward. >> Well, I mean, we were at Dell Tech World last week, and there's a lot of talk about DevSecOps and DevOps and Dell being more developer friendly. Obviously they got a long way to go, but you can't have that take that posture and not have a relationship with Red Hat. If all you got is Pivotal and VMware, and Tansu >> I was thrilled to hear the OpenShift mention in the keynote when they talked about what they were doing. >> How could you not, how could you have any credibility if you're just like, Oh, Pivotal, Pivotal, Pivotal, Tansu, Tansu. Tansu is doing its thing. And they smart strategy. >> VMware is also a partner of ours, but that we would hope that with VMware being independent, that does open the door for us to do more with them. >> Yeah, because you guys have had a weird relationship with them, under ownership of EMC and then Dell, right? And then the whole IBM thing. But it's just a different world now. Ecosystems are forming and reforming, and Dell's building out its own cloud and it's got to have... Look at Amazon, I wrote about this. I said, "Can you envision the day where Dell actually offers competitive products in its suite, in its service offering?" I mean, it's hard to see, they're not there yet. They're not even close. And they have this high say/do ratio, or really it's a low say/do, they say high say/do, but look at what they did with Nutanix. You look over- (chuckles) would tell if it's the Cisco relationship. So it's got to get better at that. And it will, I really do believe. That's new thinking and same thing with HPE. And, I don't know about Lenovo that not as much of an ecosystem play, but certainly Dell and HPE. >> Absolutely. Michael Dell would always love to poke at HPE and HP really went very far down the path of their own products. They went away from their services organization that used to be more like IBM, that would offer lots of different offerings and very much, it was HP Invent. Well, if we didn't invent it, you're not getting it from us. So Dell, we'll see, as you said, the ecosystems are definitely forming, converging and going in lots of different directions. >> But your position is, Hey, we're here, we're here to help. >> Yeah, we're here. We have customers, one of the best proof points I have is the solution that we have with Amazon. Amazon doesn't do the engineering work to make us a native offering if they didn't have the customer demand because Amazon's driven off of data. So they came to us, they worked with us. It's a lot of work to be able to make that happen, but you want to make it frictionless for customers so that they can adopt that. That's a long path. >> All right, so evening event, there's a customer event this evening upstairs in the lobby. Microsoft is having a little shin dig, and then serves a lot of customer dinners going on. So Stu, we'll see you out there tonight. >> All right, thanks you. >> Were watching a brewing somewhere. >> Keynotes tomorrow, a lot of good sessions and enablement, and yeah, it's great to be in person to be able to bump some people, meet some people and, Hey, I'm still a year and a half in still meeting a lot of my peers in person for the first time. >> Yeah, and that's kind of weird, isn't it? Imagine. And then we kick off tomorrow at 10:00 AM. Actually, Stephanie Chiras is coming on. There she is in the background. She's always a great guest and maybe do a little kickoff and have some fun tomorrow. So this is Dave Vellante for Stu Miniman, Paul Gillin, who's my co-host. You're watching theCUBEs coverage of Red Hat Summit 2022. We'll see you tomorrow. (bright music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: Live from New York, it's the Cube, covering AWS Global Summit 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back, we're here in New York City at AWS Summit, one of the regional summits. Over 10,000 people in attendance. I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost is Corey Quinn and happen to welcome Slalom to the program for the first time. So, Slalom, like Amazon themselves, is based in Seattle, yet, also has a presence here in New York City. And representing that, to my right, we have Parul Patel, who is the managing director of middle market for Slalom, based here in New York City. >> That's right. >> World Trade Center, I believe that's where your office is. >> That's right. >> That's excellent. And Joe Berg is the managing director with Slalom based out of Seattle. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you. >> All right, so, I did walk by the booth this morning. Build as a service is the big takeaway. But for our audience that might not be familiar with Slalom, give us the bumper sticker. >> Yeah, so, the way we like to tell the story is Slalom is a modern consulting company focused on strategy, technology and business transformation. As a part of the technology work that we've been doing for clients for the last couple decades, we started to see a shift in that really with the advent of cloud and companies like AWS. Really changing the technology landscape and what was really possible. You mentioned the build as a service tagline. That's really what the operating model that we built to serve those customers at the scale and at the velocity that they're starting to execute on their most mission critical digital initiatives today. So build as a service is really how we dig in and leverage platforms like AWS and provide value for customers. All right, so, Parul, one of the things we like about these regional summits is it's not just little bit rinse and repeat when you go to the environments-- >> Parul: Right. >> But they do speak to the local market. So when you look at that, some of the customers in the keynotes, you expect to see some financial services-- >> Parul: Right. >> Being here in New York City. A startup like Door Dash, where they were here. Give us your viewpoint, what is special or unique about the greater metropolitan region here in New York City that you see with your customers. >> Sure. So I think as we think about New York as a market, a lot of industries, a lot of companies that are based here. Certainly financial service is one of the big ones. But the buzz in the market is all about cloud. What are we going to do, how are we going to get into the cloud? The question we like to ask our customers is, why. Why do you want to be in the cloud? And what we're seeing, especially in financial services, is a lot of innovation. So as we think about what Joe does from a build as a service perspective, we have a client in financial services who they wanted to figure out, how do we generate more revenue? So we built them, with our build as a service capability, an AWS platform that helped them bring data together and figure out how to monetize that data across different business units and innovate. And so I think it's things like that that we ask that question of why. We can leverage cloud to really do that transformation. >> That's great. We always talk about IT can't be the organization of no. Or, as a friend of mine, Alan Cohen, said, that there's the triangle of no and slow and we need to move up to the top, which is go. >> Right. >> So how does cloud help with that move forward. That love story you talk about, how do I monetize data, how do I move that forward. There's been that promise of that but how do I turn it from a lofty goal into actual reality? >> Yeah, maybe Joe, I'll let you answer that with a little bit of how we bring it to life with our build as a service. >> Honestly, we look at cloud, it's not just an enabler of business today. It's almost fueling business today. And the reality is, the customer consumer demand out there for digital experiences is exponentially growing, right? Organizations are trying to transform themselves into these modern technology companies. Doesn't matter what industry, financial services-- >> Parul: That's right. >> Or otherwise, they're really trying to transform themselves. And cloud is really allowing them to get out of the procurement game, out of the infrastructure game, out of the data center game and really start to lean into, how do I just make use of this in a meaningful way that's going to translate into those revenue streams that Parul talked about. >> It's deceptively complex. Sorry, it's deceptively simple, I suppose, to take a look at what cloud represents, of, okay, now whatever you want instead of buying it, waiting six weeks for it to show up, if you're lucky, and then racking it. Suddenly, it's an API call away. The technology piece is interesting but how does that impact the cultural change, the processes, the governance story about it? The cost control, speaking as a cloud economist, how do you find that this is revolutionizing these companies as they are migrating into this brave new world and transforming? >> Joe: Yeah. >> When I think about cloud, so to me, it isn't a technology play at all across a business. It's about changing your business that starts with changing your mindset. So, being in the cloud, and leveraging cloud, is about how do I do things different? And that means, I'm looking at my fundamental operating model. I'm looking at who my customers are and then changing the mindset of my people. And culturally, we're going to become faster, we're going to iterate a lot more. And having things like cloud, which I can spin up instances at the click of a button, makes it easier for me to do that. But it comes with, I've got to think about my people, right? And I always tell our clients, explain to your people why this is important to them and why it's important to the business because they're going to be able to learn new skills. They're going to be able to do more and become more marketable out there. And so, to me it's a company transformation, not necessarily a technology play at all. >> Yeah, and I'll just maybe piggyback on the back of that. When you take your strategy and you start to think about translating how we're going to do things in a digital business environment and you start to think about the demands that consumer base has on how fast you release features, how quickly you are procuring new experiences for them. It is absolutely about an operating model that can translate strategy and do initiative and budgeting planning into execution very quickly. It's also, then, about when they move into the actual execution. IT organizations were not built to build technology products. They were there to build technology projects. And the confluence of those events of this becoming mission critical and part of their external facing strategy has really required that transformation and cultural shift as well, in terms of how do we build things very fastly and quickly-- >> Parul: That's right. >> Get them out to market in a iterative way that has impact and benefit and value to consumer. And I think that is the holistic complexity that organizations are dealing with, with something that is making technology very simple but the actual then motion of getting that technology to be useful is complex. >> Yeah, and it becomes very challenging to get to a point of people who are used to the old way of doing things. they're seeing the skillset that's required continue to evolve. And it's very challenging for a large-scale company to say, okay, I'm going to go out this week and hire 2,000 new people who are all up to speed on a cloud provider. >> Parul: Yeah. >> That's something that's almost impossible for people to do. So there has to be a bridge. There has to be a story that isn't, well, we're going to replace you with a younger version. >> Right. >> There has to be something that opens a door and a way to get there. And doing that both culturally and on an individual level seems like it's something a lot of companies are struggling with right now. Is that something you're seeing in your customer base? >> Absolutely. I love that question because it gives me an invitation to talk about build as a service. >> That's right. >> And build as a service, we're playing on the as a service language that companies like AWS establish, right? And the idea about build as a service is it's instantly available. You've got idea, you need to go start executing quickly. Maybe competitor A has already built an experience out there that is surpassing you in the marketplace. You don't time to think about, how do I pull all these things together? How do I upskill my resources in terms of skillsets and capabilities to then get to the point where I can execute? I need to do that now. But, I'm also on this journey of transforming my internal culture and my people and my skillsets. So how do I get a jumpstart in that. We have built a model to help our customers instantly tap into that. And these multidisciplinary teams that really holistically are bringing solution to customer, but we're also doing this in what we call a co-creation model. How do we help them learn and adopt those same principles that are going to help them build modern technology, software and products when we're gone and they're becoming self-dependent. And I think that is part of the journey of how you can leverage a company like Slalom. >> And that's why I would add, Joe, as we think about our offering, it is about getting to velocity in the software engineering space in the cloud. But this co-creation concept, I think, is one that we've heard from our clients that not a lot of people do. It's easy for partners to come in and say, here, we'll just do it for you. And our model is, we want to do it with you to the point where, when you have an agile team, we've got a mixed team of Slalom team members and client team members where we're helping the client team members learn along the way because these are all new technologies that are evolving so fast that it's hard to keep up, for anyone. >> It give me hope to hear what you're saying here, 'cause we all have the scars of listing through. It's like, okay I did a big rollout. Oh how'd it go? Well, you know, it was six to 12 months later than we thought and we all did the corporate mandated training. Yet, a month later, we're all lookin' at each other sayin, oh my gosh, how do we deal with what we have? And of course, it is no longer just waterfall and throw things over there. It is constantly changing. Therefore, co-creation is a term we love-- >> Joe: Yeah. >> And help us walk through. How long is an engagement like this? How much is there the ramp up? And then, as a service, so I'm assuming there is maintenance and you're staying engaged as after we are through some of those milestones. >> Sure, sure. Well, I always kind of start with, we moved from, as I said earlier, a project mindset into a product mindset. So each of these we consider its own piece of software. And product really starts way out here on the ideation site. So Parul talks a lot with customers about the strategy of what new revenue streams you need be thinking about. how do you engage with experiences? Once we move into this I know what I want to build. Now I just don't know how I'm going to get there to the finish line, as you were talking about earlier, Stu. That's really where we enter in with this build as a service model. And we start with a short four to six week discovery phase. So we can start to establish the foundation of what we're going to build together with our customers. That's where co-creation starts, right? What are other priorities? What are the features? How do we do agile together, which is usually a term companies use but it's not a term they know how to use, or a motion they know how to exercise well with. And so, how do we establish those things that we're going to create together? And then we scale into what we would call an MVP release cycle. Our whole idea is that we help you get to an MVP. We help you get to more viable product and then you start to become the owners of those future releases. That's that co-creation piece, where we can bring you alongside us, establish culture, actually create business value by actually getting something out the door. And then, you start to own it yourself. Depending on the competency and the abilities of the customers we work with, that can vary in terms of when those transitions happen. But we look at that as typically anywhere from a 10 to 14 week exercise to get that first iteration out. And then we start to iterate faster than that. >> Are most of your customers, are they just dealing with the people that they have in house? Or are they having to bring in new people to help with that transition along the way? I'm assuming it's a bit of a mix. >> I think it is a bit of a mixed bag and I think one of the keys, what I like about our philosophy, is that, we're all about how do we get you working software as quickly as possible. While we can do a four to six week discovery, we have client in a startup in the healthcare space, where we got them through discovery within four weeks. We do two week sprints. After three sprints, we had software up and running. And so, within 10 weeks, we said, here's what you need, and here's some working software. That I think, in a lot of ways, people say, hey, we're agile, we work fast. People typically are not delivering software in 10 weeks. And that to me, is the differentiator for the way we approach our problems, is we want to get to that working software as fast as possible. >> Right, at some point it almost feels like agile stopped meaning agility and started meaning we have a lot of meetings every morning. >> Parul: Yes. >> Joe: That's right. >> And that doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> That's right. That's a great way to say it, yeah. >> All right, a lot of customers here. Tell us what are some of the top things you're hearing from people. What bring them to your booth? What are some of those things that kind of set off the, oh this is a good fit for working with Slalom. >> Sure, well, I get asked all the time, what industries do you guys work in? Where is this most relevant, especially when you're talking about build as a service. And the reality is, it just slices horizontally right through every industry. Because, I don't know of an industry, whether it be healthcare, financial services, retail, manufacturing, I don't know of one that isn't on that journey. They're at different places on that journey, and the adoption curve, but usually we seem them coming. I think there's a stat out there that says 80% of the enterprise customers have adopted cloud. But only about 10% of the work clothes are on cloud, right? >> Parul: That's right. >> So they're coming to us with saying, hey we know we're on this journey of moving to the cloud, but we're stuck in really getting the most value out of the cloud and how can you help us accelerate the value that we believe is there with a platform like AWS? And that's where we're really entering in and finding those critical experiences that are going to create value, not only internally in terms of momentum, but externally in terms of their business. >> Yeah. And I would say that as we think about when companies look at us and why they picked Slalom as an organization to work with, one of the key differentiators is we like to work with people that we enjoy working with. So we truly want to partner with our clients and so companies say, you know what? We want people that we enjoy working with. we want people that are going to challenge us and be innovative. And that's what you're going to get. When you get Slalom, if you're lookin' for someone to be innovative and challenging a little bit, we're probably not the best fit for your company, right? That's just being honest out there. But I think the other piece of it is that we want to accelerate your journey and enable you to do it. So, we're not in the business. While we have long-term capabilities, like as a service, etc, we're not in the business of taking over your business or being in the outsourcing space. And so, our mindset is all about how do we make you better? And help you realize your vision? And I think that's why we work across a lot of different industries and a lot of different types of companies. >> Joe and Perul, really appreciate you helping share how you're helping customers through that journey, through great adoption in the cloud. Thanks for sharin' and all the updates on Slalom. >> Thank for having us! >> Yeah, thanks for havin' us. >> All right. for Corey Quinn, >> Take care. >> I'm Stu Minimann. We'll be back here with lots more coverage from AWS Summit in New York City. Thanks for watchin' the Cube. (upbeat music)