>> From Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE. Covering VMware, Women Transforming Technology 2019. Brought to you by VMware. >> Hi, Lisa Martin, on the ground with theCUBE, at Vmware in Palo Alto, California at the fourth annual Women Transforming Technology event, WT-squared. Love this event. So excited to welcome back to theCUBE Betsy Sutter, VMware's Chief People Officer. Betsy, this event is incredible, year after year. >> Yeah. >> How do you do it? >> I don't do it. A team of people do it. But I love it and I love it that you're here. You're as passionate about this as I am. Our fourth! And this one is bigger and better than ever. I love it. And, you know, it's really all about just connecting women so we can continue to innovate and shape the future. So, super fun! >> It is super fun. One of the things that I love is that as soon as you walk onto the campus in the morning, ahead of the event, even walking up to registration, you can feel positivity, sharing, collaboration, experiences being shared. This community movement-- you literally can feel it. And then we walked in, your opening keynote this morning. >> Yeah, wasn't she amazing? Joy Buolamwini >> Wow. Amazing. What she was sharing. Breakthrough data of all the biases that are being built into just facial recognition software alone. >> Yeah. >> Her passion for highlighting the bias and then identifying it and then mitigating it, that passion was not only coming from her, but the entire audience. In person, I can imagine the livestream, just got it. >> Yeah. You know, she is amazing. I mean, she's an innovator. I mean, she's a brainiac. She's funny, she's artsy. But she's an innovator. But what's interesting about her is she's an inclusive innovator. Right? It's all about inclusion and I love her approach to this. I just spent an hour with her in a Fireside Chat where a number of us got to have a conversation with her and she's about as interesting as anybody I've ever met in terms of where she's taking this research so that she can create, just a better world. >> And she's doing that. One of the things that was, the word inclusivity kind of popped up, and intersectionality, a number of times, where she was showing data, AI data, from Microsoft, IBM, Face++, and just showing the massive differences in those data sets alone, so the whole inclusivity theme was very paralleled, in my opinion, but she's actually getting these companies to start evaluating their data sets to change that so that Oprah Winfrey, for example, face recognition doesn't come up as a male. >> That's right. Yeah, she has done some interesting, interesting work, and she's not approaching it as if it's a race issue in particular, right. She's taking a completely different, very positive approach, to highlighting a real problem. I mean, we knew that inclusion is a challenge in technology, but inclusion in artificial intelligence is by far worse, and I love it that she's unpacking that. >> I also love that, as a marketer, I loved how she formed the Algorithmic Justice League. >> Right. >> I couldn't think of a better name, myself. But that she's seeing three tenets of that. One is highlight the bias. >> That's right. >> And I thought, that's awareness. There needs to be more awareness of that because my mind was blown seeing these models today, and then she brings in Amazon and shows them, look at your data sets. >> Right. >> And so there needs to be more awareness, consistent awareness, it's kind of classic marketing of, there are a lot of challenges, but AI is so pervasive, I can imagine a lot of baby boomers probably have iPhones with facial recognition and don't understand, wow, even that, unlocking my phone, is a problem. How deep does this go across emerging technologies that are being developed today? >> That's right. And then she just talks about, in such broad terms, I mean she has a global mind around the social impact that this is having, whether it's in artwork, whether it's in self-driving car technologies, whatever it is. I mean, it's huge. And she's able to kind of look out and think about it in that light. And given the work that we're doing at VMware around inclusion and diversity, it's kind of a fresh new angle to really unpacking the layers of complexity that face these issues. >> Yeah, you're right. That was a thing that also caught my attention was there were so many layers of bias. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We can think of, you know, the numbers of women, or lack thereof, in technology. One of the things that Joy said, kind of along the parallels of layers was, the under-represented majority, as she says, it's women and people of color. >> That's right. >> It's layer upon layer upon layer. >> It is. >> Wow. Just cracking the surface. >> She's just scratching things, but the way she's doing her approach, I think, just brings a whole new light to this. I'm very grateful that she was able to speak to all of us, right. It's really about bringing women together to have these kinds of conversations so we can start to think about how we want to innovate and shape the future. She also touches on just this aspect of communities, which I love. And, you know, I've long said that people join communities, not companies, per se, and one of the things that we've done at VMware is tried to think about how do you create an inclusive culture, if you will, that embraces all sorts of communities. And Joy just started talking about a whole new dimension to how we think about that, which was fun. >> So you have been at the helm of people at VMware for a long time. >> I have. >> Lots of transformation. >> Yeah. >> I'm curious to get your, if you look back at the last four years now of WT-squared, how have you learned from even just speakers like Joy and helped to transform not just WT-squared but VMware, its diversity and inclusion efforts in and of themself? >> Yeah, you know, one of the things that I love about VMware and I love about WT-squared is that it's really a consortium or a collective of companies coming together, so this is not a VMware branded event, or a VMware event just by itself. It's just a collective. And then we try and broaden that circle so we can have more and more conversation. And I think that's what I'm most pleased with, I mean, we work hard at making sure that this collective is involved from the get-go in terms of, what do we want to talk about, so we can have the real and relevant conversations about inclusion and diversity, especially as women in tech, which, in some regards, is getting better, but in many, it's just not, and so how do you double down on that in an authentic way and really get business results. >> Exactly. It's all about getting business results. >> It is. >> One of the things that surprises me, in some cases, is when you see, whether it's from McKenzie or whatnot, different studies that show how much more profitable businesses are with women at the executive levels, and it just, that seems like a no-brainer, yet there's so many, the lack of women in technology, but also the attrition rates. >> Yeah. >> Really staggering, if you look at it, compared to any other industries. >> That's right. And, you know, we have a longstanding relationship with Stanford. >> Yes. >> The Clayman Institute. VMware helped found the VMware Stanford Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, which I'm exceedingly proud of. But, yeah, research shows this over and over. But one of the things that I love about my work is bridging that into how corporations operate and how people just work at work, and so that keeps me intellectually engaged, I'll say that, for sure. But, yeah, that is the big challenge. >> I'm also, what I love, just observing the attendees at the event, is you see all age levels. >> Yeah, I love that, too. >> And you have the tracks, the Emerging Leaders track for those who are younger, earlier in their career, The Executive track, the Technical track, and you've got a track about of sharing best practices, which I also love, or just hearing stories of, "How did you face this obstacle, maybe it wasn't, that didn't cause you to turn, or to leave the industry?" I think those are so important to help share. "Oh my God, I'm going through the same thing," for example. But might just help the next, or not just the next generation, but even those of us who might be middle-career from not leaving and going, "Okay, maybe it's the situation, I need to get into a different department, a different company, but I love technology and I'm going to stay no matter what." >> Yeah. Keeping those conversations elevated is one aspect of this, but then to your point, the cross-pollination of all these different kinds of women and what they've experienced in tech, the panel today was amazing, right. We had Ray, we had Lisa, and we had Susan. All different perspectives, different generations, but talking about sort of their challenges as they've navigated this, and where they all want to see it go. So I do think there's a bit of a common vision for where we want this to go, which is wonderful, but bringing all these different perspectives is the differential. And that's what we do here. We try and replicate that. And what will happen all through the day as I go to those different tracks, I'll hear from these different women and the questions are always just a blast to hear, right, because I learn so much from what's top-of-mind, what's keeping people up at night as they venture into tech and continue into tech. >> Anything in particular that surprises you? >> You know, one young woman asked me about my concern around communication and interaction because of how technology's affected how people do that-- rarely face-to-face like you and I are right now. And there're so many other visual and sensory cues that go into having a conversation with another human being, so we had a great conversation about what's good about it from a technology standpoint, and what's bad about it, and I think that's actually what Joy was talking about in her talk today, as well. But I was pleased that a very young person asked me that question. I know people of my generation, we talk about it, but it was fun to hear, kind of inspiring to hear a younger person say, "Is this all good?" >> Well and you're right, it probably was a nice, pleasant, refreshing surprise because we think of younger generations as, kind of, you say, cloud-native or born of the cloud, born on the phone, who are so used to communicating through different social media platforms. To hear that generation saying, you know, or even bringing it to our attention, like, "Shouldn't we be actually talking in person or by using technology like video conferencing and zoom things for engaging?" Think of how many people wouldn't fall asleep in meetings if video conferencing was required? >> That's right. That's exactly right. And another woman, a little further along in her career, what was weighing on her was how she stayed being a responsible and ethical person when she doesn't really know all the ingredients of what she's helping to create. And that's just a mindset that I haven't heard before. I thought that was wonderful. >> That is. Because we often talk about responsibility and accountability with respect to data science or AI, for example. It's interesting to hear an individual contributor talking about, "Where do I fall in that accountability/responsibility spectrum?" Is not a common question. >> No, and you know, we think we're creating a world of more transparency but, really, when you're coding you're not really sure what might happen with that code. And I thought Susan Fowler did a lovely job talking about that today on the panel, as well. That there's a huge responsibility in terms of what you're doing. So connecting those dots, understanding all the ingredients, I think corporations like VMware, and VMware does this in large part today, it gets harder, it's more complex, but we're going to have to answer those questions about what kind of pie or cake are we really baking with this, right? >> Exactly. Exactly. Could you have, if you looked back to when you first joined VMware, envisioned all of the transformation and the strength in community and numbers that you're helping to achieve with women transforming technology? >> I really couldn't. I mean, the industry is amazing, you know, I was at the right place at the right time and got to ride this tech wave. It's been great. No, I couldn't have imagined it, and now things are moving at an unprecedented place, things are much more complex. I have to call my adult children to get input onto this, that, and the other. >> (laughs) >> But no, it is a dream come true. It's been an absolute honor and privilege for me to be a part of this. I love it. >> When you talk with VMware partners or customers, are they looking to-- Betsy, how have you been able to build this groundswell and maintain it? >> Yeah, you know, my focus is primarily on the culture and the environment of the company, and I'm a really good listener. So that's the key. >> It is key. You just listen and pay attention to what people are saying, what matters to them, what's bothering them, and you continue to hold on to, sort of, those, you know, those North Stars of what you're trying to build and I always knew that I wanted to build the sustainable cultures, something that would last the test of time. So we're at 21 years. I've done 19 of them, so it's been great. You know, but you want to make sure you keep that rebar in the ground as you continue to build up. This community is solid. They're doin' it. Yeah, it's great. >> And it must be receptive. We talked about companies or leaders or businesses being receptive to change. I think I talked about that with Caroline and Shannon, who were part of that panel, and said, you know, oftentimes, we're talking with leaders, again, business units, companies, who aren't receptive to that change. Cultural change is really difficult, but it's essential. I was talking with Michael Dell a few months ago at Boomi World and said, "How have you managed as Dell has grown so massively to change the culture in a way that, you know, enables that growth?" It's a really hard thing to do. But for companies to do digital transformation and IT transformation, the culture, the people have to be receptive. I think, to one of your strengths, they have to be willing to listen. >> Yeah. And you never really arrive, right. So you constantly are in beta mode in the world, and so if you never assume that you've arrived, then you can pause, or that you just constantly want to beta things, then you have an edge, and I think Michael Dell's clearly got vision around that, right. I know Pat Gelsinger does, too. And so I like just partnering with those great minds, those great business and strategic minds, and then just building on the people component or the cultural component. But I, too, I'm constantly trying to produce new products and pay attention to what the customer wants. >> When you see things in the news like some of the harassment issues, say, for example, that Uber has experienced, I imagine you're watching the news or reading it and you're thinking, if I could just say three things to those people. When you see things like that, what are the top three things you would recommend that, not in reaction, though, but how can that culture change to deliver the customer experience, ultimately, that they need to, but what are some of the things that you think, these are easy fixes? >> Yeah, I think in watching a lot of my companies in the industry and how they've responded, for me, my advice would be, you should elevate that conversation. That conversation's not going to go away. And so you need to elevate it, give it a lot of sunlight and oxygen, really understand it, don't try and move away from it, don't push it down. And that's something we do at VMware, we're constantly elevating the conversation. One of the things I love about this culture, it's made me a lot better at what I do, is I can always answer the question, "Why are we doing that?" And so that's, why are we doing that? And if I can't answer why, we have a problem. And a why just sort of symbolizes intellectual curiosity, right, so that's what we're trying to keep alive and that's what I tell my other colleagues in the industry is just keep that conversation going: there's no quick fix to this, people are complex, don't pretend you really know. So elevate it and let's get to really know each other a lot better. >> And there's so much good that can come from any sort of blight or negativity, there really is, but you're right. Especially in this day and age, with everything being on camera, you can't hide. >> And, you know, it's okay to admit that you made a mistake. >> I agree. >> It's really okay. And so there's something about that that we've got to get back. >> I think it's one of the most admirable things of any human trait or corporation is just admitting, ah, this was the wrong turn, >> Right. >> I said the wrong thing. >> You know what, we made a mistake. We've course-corrected. >> I'm human. >> Yes. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> So we talked about Joy opening things off today and Ashley Judd-- >> I know, I can't wait. >> I bet you can't wait. She is the closing keynote. What are the things that inspire you about Ashley's work? >> I just think that she's wicked-smart. And I think she's using her platform in a really powerful way. And for her to want to come here and speak to us just reflects her passion, and the juxtaposition of Joy with Ashley is fabulous, right. Really gives you a lot to think about, so I can't wait to see Ashley. >> And just even juxtaposing those two, like you said, you can just see massive diversity there, in thought, in background, and experience, in life experiences, but both coming from different perspectives and different angles that can be so inspirational >> Yeah. To all of us in the audience. >> Yeah, and positive. You know, they're taking this positive approach to this movement and, yeah, very different women, but both really, really smart, very passionate. Resilient, clearly. And persistent. They're going to keep movin' it forward. >> Persistence is the key. So, great event so far. It's not even over, but what are your dreams for next year's event? >> Oh, we just have to keep going. I'd love to see more companies join the consortium. We've learned a couple things about, we just are going to start the conversation earlier about what we want the event to be. We love hosting people on the campus, obviously, and luckily we have terrific weather today, but I would just like to see companies come together and have the conversation, and that was really the impetus for this, is that we wanted to make sure we got a lot of diverse perspectives that were dealing with these real issues, and let's talk about what women in technology at all levels, as you pointed out, what's top-of-mind for them? And what do they need to have the conversation about? Let's bring 'em together, let's let 'em connect and start to innovate and create the future. >> Well I'm already looking forward to next year, Betsy. >> Yeah, me too. >> It's been such a pleasure to talk to you again. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thank you so much for spending time with me on theCUBE today. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate your time. >> Super fun. >> Good. You're watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin on the ground at Women Transforming Technology, the fourth annual. Thanks for watching. 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>> From Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE. Covering VMware Women Transforming Technology 2019. Brought to you by VMware. >> Hi, Lisa Martin on the ground with theCUBE at the fourth annual Women Transforming Technology event VMware, WT squared, one of my favorite events and I'm joined by two PhDs, both from, I'm going to say this one time, the Stanford VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab, we've got Shannon Gilmartin, senior research scholar. Hi, Shannon. >> Hi, great to be here. >> And we've got, great to have you, we've got Caroline Simard, managing director of the lab. Ladies, thank you so much for joining. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. >> So this event, we were talking about before we started, that you, walk into the keynote, opening keynote which in and of itself was electric but the energy that comes into the room with, VMware was telling me a little while ago, about 1500 live attendees. >> Incredible. >> Not even including those that were watching the livestream. The energy comes into the room and then, of course, this morning with Joy, I'm going to try to say her name, Buolamwini. The poet of code, the MIT researcher who started really, sharing with us the significant biases in AI. The energy, if it could even be down that more, I can't even imagine it, so. I can imagine the panel that you guys were on this morning was quite charged. The panel title was, I found interesting, Inclusive Innovators Designing For Change. So Caroline, talk to us about designing for change. You look through a design lens, what does that mean? >> Yeah, so I think what, to frame the morning, and then Shannon was the moderator, so I want, she picked the topic of design. But I think what Joy really showed is the power that is possible to realize when women and women of color and people from different dimensions of identity are included in creating technology and how much better technology will be for society, right? If all voices are included, and I would also say that some of her comments also make it clear that it is fundamentally irresponsible not to have diversity at the table in designing the technology of tomorrow. The consequences on different kinds of people and different populations are significant. And so this is why Shannon really picked this idea of, as engineers and designers and creators of this technology, how do you keep in mind the responsibility that you have? >> So yeah, talk to us more about the design and why that is so critical. >> And the way we positioned it for our panelists, it was titled Inclusive Innovators Designing For Change, and we were going to explore how meaningful change towards greater diversity and equity is realized in engineering cultures. And in the very technology that's being created. More specifically though, how do individuals and communities of people design for change in their technical environments? Even when this environment may not be initially very receptive to new ways of interacting. To new ways of thinking, to new ways of achieving. And so the whole panel was premised on this idea of people are designers of change in their environments. How does that happen? How do people interface with barriers to those design processes? And what is advice for the younger generation as they look ahead to their pathways as designers for change? >> Yeah, 'cause change in any context of life is hard. >> Yep. >> Yes. >> Right, it's an uphill battle. But designing for that change, I'm curious what some of the commentary was from the panelists about, when you're encountering, whether it's a company or a leadership group within a company that, to your point, isn't receptive, what were some of the comments or stories of how that was changed over time to become receptive and understand, the massive potential that that change can have? I mean we look at numbers like, companies with women on the leadership communities are far more profitable, so what were some of those, from, I don't get it, to, oh my gosh, why aren't we doing sooner? >> And we have this amazing range of perspectives represented on the panel, so we had a VMware CTO, chief technology officer Ray O'Farrell. And he was really talking about from a leader perspective, a key idea here when there are barriers and blocks and inertia, is to open things up and really start listening. And this is a skill and a talent and a group practice that is so little done, so infrequently done. So poorly done, sometimes. But really key in the face of those barriers is to actually say, instead of shutting down, open up and start listening to what's happening. Another one of our panelists, Susan Fowler who is the Time Magazine Person of the Year as one of the silence breakers in 2017, she was really talking about how, expect the steps, you're going to need to go through a lot of steps to make your voice heard. And ultimately, for Susan, she made the decision to go public with what she had encountered and was facing and grappling with and struggling, as were many of her colleagues. But she was really talking about the step by step process that's involved in a large organization, when you're hitting blocks, you just got to keep on fighting that good fight, and you also need to be doing your very best work at the same time, it's a high pressure situation. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So. >> Absolutely, we also heard from Lisa Gelobter who is the CEO of tEQuitable, an organization that's creating a safe place for change agents to share their stories when they're encountering these blocks and this kind of unfair treatment. And she talked about, also, the need to do your best work but also the critical importance of community in being more resilient as you're trying drive change in your environment, right? And this is the kind of community that is being built today with this event, right? It's really paying attention especially for her, as a black woman engineer, being the only one constantly at the table fighting for change has been something that she has realized she needs to pay a lot of attention to so that she can be much more resilient as a leader for longterm change. Another topic that I think, in terms of generating change, that really came through both in the panel and during this morning's keynote, and that we pay a lot of attention to at the lab, is to really highlight bias. Is to really diagnose what is really happening in organizations? Or in AI, as we heard from Joy this morning. So a lot of people genuinely aspire to treat others fairly, right? But they don't realize that their workplaces are so far from being a meritocracy, that there's these structural inequalities that are really embedded in all of the ways that people are working. And so when you're able to show people exactly how it shows up in their company, right? The promotion rates for women of color for example, being lower than for other people, the exact points of data that they need to see, that they're not treating people the same way and creating the same kind of pathways for impact for different kinds of people, then that has a lot of power to drive change because a lot of people, then, will be very motivated to say, okay, I see this is happening in my org every day. Now I can design a different approach, right? How do I redesign the way I'm working today? In my units. >> And take action. >> And take action. >> 'Cause you actually have the data, it's such a dichotomy at times, that we have, we're surrounded by data especially in Silicon Valley. But one of the things that shocked me, what Joy showed this morning is, when she put on blast, IBM, Microsoft, and what was it, Face++, about looking at all of the built in biases to facial recognition. But, one of the things that really also, I thought, was interesting, was that, she went and showed this to these companies, who responded, and those numbers are actually improving. And then when she said, hey Amazon, so, the fact that even that one person is able to show, look at some of the massive problems that you're training these models to have, they need to be able to see that. So the highlight, I think, the highlight the bias, and the communicate, communicate, communicate and listen, are three critical elements to any place being successful. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. One additional part of both Joy's presentation and Lisa's comments too, really spoke to action needing to take an intersectional approach. So Joy's data breaks it down by race and gender and all of a sudden, you see completely different trends. Lisa spoke to that as well in her comments. Key to this designing for change process is really wearing the hat of someone who is looking through the world with an intersectional lens. And understanding how different axes operate together uniquely for different groups. And that's when you see these biases being highlighted really in full force, in full relief. So both of these points and these presentations really brought that up. >> Yeah and the intersectionality that Joy talked about was even evident and you could parallel it to, why it was important to look at all these different sources of facial recognition data, how disparate some of them were. >> Right, right. >> I know. >> Without that lens you couldn't see all of that variation even across the different providers. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, and she talked, too, about how everything is classified in a binary way, right? In terms of gender identity, and then where data doesn't even see people who are Non-Binary. >> Exactly. >> So it's like, >> That's still a huge omission >> again, exactly. That we have a lot more work to do to have data that truly captures all the dimensions we're interested in. >> It does, it does. Long way to go, but the fact that it's being highlighted and opportunities like, not just what VMware does but the lab as well. So let's talk a little bit about the lab. It kind of got its start in 2013 when then Stanford president Doctor John Hennessy, provided some funding. I had the opportunity to interview him last week, lovely man. Last year VMware did a big endowment of about 15 million. What's going on, Caroline, we'll start with you, what's going on at the lab? What are you guys studying now? What are some of the breakthroughs that have been uncovered in the last 12 months? >> Yeah, so a big part of our lab's work and since we began this work, has been to really bridge the gap between research and practice, right? And so a lot of why there's little progress being made is because you have a lot of research happening in the academy, in the ivory tower, if you will. And then you have a lot of innovative practices being tested but without necessarily the research foundation and the research frameworks to truly evaluate it. And so, our work has been to really bridge those two things together. And explore those boundaries so we can have more innovative research but also more evidence based practices come in, right? And since the VMware endowment we've been able to, really grow in our aspirations in the kind of data, in the kind of research questions that we can really ask. One of them is this focus on the more intersectional, longterm study of really documenting the experience of women of color. And really understanding the nature of their career pathways across racial dimensions, right? And really highlighting a lot more of, qualitative deep insight, generate their stories, right? And really centering their experience. The other one is, investing in large scale datasets that capture gender, race, age, and other identity dimensions and look at their longterm career trajectories. This is actually work that Shannon is leading. So we have an exciting dataset where we have people through five years and we see what happens to them, who gets promoted? Who doesn't? Who gets top talent designation, who gets a salary increase? Who, and then we're excitingly, looking at social network data, so who's meeting with who? And then what kind of connections do you need to be able to advance in your career? And are there some systematic inequalities there, right? And a big part of our work then is to design these interventions where we work with companies to test what we call a small wins approach. It always starts with diagnosis, here's what's going on in your very specific workplace and your culture. And then we co-design with leaders and managers. It doesn't work for us or HR or anybody to say, go do this, or you should do this. It's really about really engaging managers who want to do better in coming up with the design fix, if you will, that they can come up with. Informed by our research, so it's a co-design process. And then we roll it out and we test the outcomes pre and post, so. We're doing a lot more work now to disseminate what we're learning through these interventions so that other organizations can implement this very similar approach. >> First I love that it's called an intervention. 'Cause I think that's incredibly appropriate. (Shannon and Caroline laughing) Second, are you seeing an uptick in the last year of companies, obviously VMware and Dell being two great companies that are very focused on, not just women in technology, but I loved how Joy said today, it's women and people of color are the underrepresented majority. Are you seeing an uptick in companies willing to, accept the intervention and collaborate with you to really design from within for that change? >> Yes absolutely. And I would say that in this industry people are comfortable with piloting things and doing a little R and D experiment, right? So it's also a culturally appropriate way of thinking, okay, what if we try this, and see what happens? And so I see a lot of energy from organizations and based on what you were talking about, it's also, I think companies are aware that it's, the overlapping dimensions of identity increasingly aware, are within their own walls, but then, in their consumer base, right? So how is their product affecting different kinds of people? Are their customers experiencing bias from the very platforms that they build? And so I think that's also a very powerful, entryway into this intersectional conversation because, the product is, so foundational to the business of the company. >> It is, and especially event after event that we cover on theCUBE, customer experience in any industry, is critical because as consumers of whatever it is, we have so much choice. Shannon last question for you. One of the things that always interests me is the attrition rate being so high in technology. I'm curious what you guys are finding in the lab with, mentioning following women on maybe their first five years. Are you seeing any glaringly obvious, challenges that are driving that attrition? Is it, it's got to be more than the motherhood penalty. >> Right, right. We're looking at a range of, what we call pathway outcomes really for young people just starting out in their very first, second jobs, where they are several years later, we're looking at odds of promotion, odds of leaving the company, odds of moving and making a lateral move into some other kind of line of business, maybe taking them out of, let's say, a technical role and moving them into a non technical role. Each and every one of those critical moments is worthy of deeper study for us. And what we're doing, really, is taking this intersectional lens and understanding how do those different moments vary for different groups of women? It's not enough just to say, all women have some x percentage of an attrition rate. We're trying to understand how attrition really varies by sub-groups of women. And how that varies over time with what interactions that precede it and then follow. One of the themes that we've really been looking at in, for instance, attrition stories, is the assignment. Which projects, what kinds of assignments are people getting in their first few years on the job? How are some of those make or break? With what net consequence for women, men, from different racial ethnic backgrounds, different ages, different countries? And understanding, really, the role of those assignments in someone's longer term career pathway, just how important they are. And what kinds of interventions we can hand design to really elevate access to the best assignments for everyone, basically. >> Gosh, you guys, this is so fascinating and so inspiring what you're doing at the lab I wish we had more time, but you'll have to come back next year! >> Exactly. >> Absolutely we will thank you so much for having us. >> Thank you so much, Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. For theCUBE I'm Lisa Martin, on the ground at WT squared, thanks for watching. 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from the VMware campus in Palo Alto California it's the Cuban covering women transforming technologies hi I'm Lisa Martin on the ground with the cube at VMware in Palo Alto at the third annual women transforming Technology event and we're here with a cube alumni Betsy Sutter SVP & chief people officer at V and we're so great to have you back on the cube thank you it's great to be here this is a very exciting day yes I love these types of events because you walk in and you just feel the sense of community and empowerment and and that's one of the great things that WT squared is in in and of itself its acronym of organizations that's right industry academia and nonprofits to help women connect learn from each other and support each other not just here in Silicon Valley but beyond and this is 30 annual this was sold out like within hours yes amazing amazing momentum that you guys have brought now to the third year great yeah we're really excited we're really excited and it's a new approach right it's creating as you said a consortium of companies to come together and just have real-time conversations about what's going on around gender equality and so yeah I'm really proud of this conference mostly because it just brings such a diverse set of people together men and women we have more men attending this year than ever before and so the conversations are just elevated they're fun yeah so you started at VMware when I was a startup with about a hundred people and here you were now managing this organization that of 20,000 people yeah big undertaking yeah talk to me about kind of the cultural change in shifts that you've seen and probably been able to drive from you know the last 15 years or so yeah you know the culture has been a pretty deliberate strategy from day one and I give the first CEO and founder Diane Greene a tremendous amount of credit for being really clear about what she wanted to build and she really wanted to build a sustainable company and a culture and she knew culture was the differentiator and even the current CEO today Pat Gallagher and I know that this is the single biggest differentiator that we can continue to strengthen in the company and then all the diversity inclusion and conversations are just part of that at this point in time but it was a deliberate regi plain and simple always keeping an eye on that and the values are at the core of that right and then the culture and the behavior reflect the values and so it's just been steadfast and stalwart on who we want to be over the past 20 years it's our 20th anniversary as a company and yeah I've been here for 17 of those but that's the work that I've really focused on it's been terrific that being deliberate is really key there yep so this third event inclusion in action is the theme yep how do you see that Bing how do you how do you live that and infiltrate that at VMware yeah well you know we are a company that has wanted to disrupt the tech space and so in order to do that we've had to stay focused on innovation innovation innovation and we really innovate in everything not just in our technology and our products but how we bring them to market how we support them but it also affects a lot of the work that I do in my space and in order to innovate you have to be inclusive of just a lot of different viewpoints and I like to say that we started out sort of in as an industrial research kind of company we were born out of Stanford a lot of computer science you know graduate students creating what we've now become and that's just been kind of the path is just collaboration even though we're 22,000 people now we still kind of take that approach to everything we do and speaking of Stanford big news out yes morning yeah gratulations thank you is investing 15 million dollars in a new women's leadership Innovation Lab that's right Danford that's amazing yeah we're thrilled we are so excited and Shelly Carell professor of sociology at Stanford we our partnership has been with Stanford since 2013 I think they've really helped us navigate everything that we've done in the inclusion and diversity space and so this is a new chapter and it's around women's leadership and it's around women's leadership and innovation and this lab I think is gonna reap some great results research based work is sort of at the heart and soul who we are right and so this is just more of that it's gonna be great to take progressive research groundbreaking research and put it into practice and so Shelley and I couldn't be more excited about what's next awesome well one of the interesting things is I was reading in the press release this morning that came out that according to McKinsey companies with diversity at the executive level 21 percent write more profitable that's right why aren't more companies even paying attention you know that that is a great question because most companies are about making money and wanting to be profitable yeah so it's it's perplexing that people aren't really honing in on what research is showing but you know suddenly it comes down to power and influence it's all about who has the power and who has the influence and so part of what we're doing with Stanford VMware Women's Leadership Innovation Lab is figuring out how to get women into more leadership positions and get them into more powerful and influential positions and that will be the thing that equalizes you know gender inequality so in the last six months we have had big movements me too yeah time's up yep growtopia there I'm Emily Chang published recently right how when you when you when that first came out with all the Harvey Weinstein stuff teachers say good we need to be able to get to leverage this moment and was that do you see that as being pulled into the tech industry and and helping to accelerate making this diversity change i I think things are getting accelerated and amplified because I think voices are being used and heard and I think there's a movement and I think women are coming together as a consortium around their gender and understanding that the real issues are around power and influence and tackling it head-on and the quality of the conversations around all of these movements is it's inspiring to me after spending 30 odd years in tech so I think things are really starting to change because women are using their voices yeah speaking of women using their voices you had Laila Ali as a keynote yeah that was so fantastic strong confident woman yeah who the daughter of Muhammad Ali who tried to talk her out of becoming a fighter right tried to - I love how she said he tried to actually kind of get me I think it was my idea to not go into it right so obviously a woman probably born with a lot of natural confidence but I loved how she kind of talked to all of us and said he sometimes that light goes out or its dimmed and I need to remind myself with you our best yeah so you probably see a good amount of females that have that sort of innate confidence that love engineering and I'm gonna do this how do you encourage those women to may be mentor some of the of the either younger or not other females who want to do something but are intimidated by you know maybe don't have that natural confidence how do you kind of facility at that empowerment yeah well I do think Leila's story is amazing and you know most importantly she's an entrepreneur and a businesswoman right I mean what she's done with her career with her foundation but what she's done with her career is most impressive and I love that digging deep and find that warrior from within yeah but I think for women today I think the difference is that we're able to have the conversation with each other and even with the opposite sex and I think companies are starting to understand that if you don't have diversity you're not going to have innovation and you're not going to win and most companies that I've worked for and VMware in particular we want to win we want to lead we want to disrupt and we want to impact the world and we want and need to make money as well but I think for women now the conversation is allowed I know that people are listening on both sides of the fence and we do a lot of VMware just to make sure that conversation is alive one of the things I'm really proud of it VMware and that I really believe is it's been the quality of the conversations since day one that have put us where we are in the world and in the industry and as a company and so the conversation shifting a little bit right we're talking more about this and it's those quality conversations that just keep it going and and that's sort of core to who we are so we'll just continue that trend and it's great being able to talk to the cube because you're allowing us to amplify the quality of the conversation so I'm grateful and we're happy to be a part of that so just just the about the event there are a number of tracks right also that was something that I was mentioned to you before we we started filming was I loved that when I walked in there was a jot yeah I love that and as well as a LinkedIn profile right resume clinic all of these you think minor things those can be really impact that's right if a woman has a great head challenge wow this is fantastic or somebody guiding her on what or what not to put on a LinkedIn profile just even providing some of these things that are foundational yep that's really huge it is really huge and it's also just a new platform for these conversations to continue whether it's just a visual because you're looking at my LinkedIn headshot or my Twitter feed or whatever it is but these are all really small things but matter really small things really matter yes and so building those up into people's psyches and their abilities is sort of what we're trying to do as part of the conference so in context of the third annual event the sold-out events and this great announcement of what VMware and Stanford are doing yeah what are some of those quick wins or exciting ones that you're looking forward to seeing the rest of 2018 yeah I think I love that question I think the key is continuing to join forces to continue to lock arms and continue the conversations and so a lot of what I love to do professionally and personally is create those platforms for people to do those kinds of things and that's what women transforming technology is about this year and has been about the last two years and I think we'll just continue to do that and people will tell us what we need to know and where we need to go awesome if you look back at your career would you have forecast your success being you know the chief people officer is c-level or would you yeah you know what was that yeah I met such that's it I'm just starting at this point in my career to really reflect on that no I never imagined having this amount of responsibility and privilege never in my wildest dreams it wasn't an aspirational goal I knew that I wanted as much influence as I could have to achieve results I'm a professional problem solver this is a pretty meaty problem that we're tackling but no I I didn't a dream it now I feel a huge amount of responsibility to start to talk about it I'm a I think I mentioned you I'm a behind-the-scenes kind of person I like to work back there understanding the problem diagnosing it coming up with a solution and then helping implement it but now it's time to kind of talk about what's happened and where we are and set course for the future with so many wonderful women last question for you yep because the attrition rate is so high for females in technology yeah what advice would you give to a woman who's on the cusp of leaving not to sort of family but just going I'm not sure I feel supported here what advice would you give her yeah I would give that person and I do give this advice on the right to go out and have lots of conversations and just start those conversations you just don't know what you don't know and I've had women come to me and at the end of 45 minutes to an hour tell me they're thinking about doing something else and it saddens me especially if they're at vmware because i don't want them to leave but go out and have those conversations and explore what's next don't be afraid of the conversation and sharing what's happening to you with you at your work and events like women transforming technology are only going to help continue to get more eyes and ears on every side of whatever gap we've got aware of this and help all of us become part of the solution that's right to accelerate diversity because as the data show companies could be far more profitable if they've got that thought diversity that's exactly right and it's just that simple but it's just that difficult exactly yeah it was that simple well Betsy thank you so much but a pleasure joining us and allowing us to be part of the voice and getting this away it's out there for women transforming technology as well as helping to hopefully empower and inspire all of the current and future generations yeah attack no I really appreciate you being here - thank you our pleasure yeah we want to thank you for watching the cube I'm Lisa Martin on the ground at women transforming Technology thanks for watching [Music]

(upbeat electronic music) >> Narrator: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE covering Women Transforming Technology. >> Hi, I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE. We are on the ground at VMware in Palo Alto, with the third annual Women Transforming Technology event and I'm very excited to be joined by the CEO of Women Who Code, Alaina Percival. Alaina, nice to have you here. >> Hi, thank you very much for having me. >> So tell me about Women Who Code. You co-founded it a while ago. Give us a little bit of a background about what your organization is. >> Yeah, Women Who Code is the largest and most active community of technical women in the world. Our mission is to see women excel in technology careers, and that's because we have a vision of women becoming executives, technical executives, founders, board members, and of course through a pathway of being software engineers. >> So Women Who Code started, originally, back in 2011 as a community. Tell me a little bit about the genesis of that and what you've transformed it into, today. >> Yeah, it started off as a local community, and it was just a space to get together with other technologists, and what we started to see is it was this thing that was just fun and kind of our little secret for, you know, that first year, and we realized-- at one point I said, "Hey other women around the world deserve to have this, as well." And, that's really where the focus to grow globally came about and focus on women: building on their skills and building up their leadership skills and if you invite software engineers to a leadership and networking event, they won't come, but we hold an average of five free technical events every single day, throughout the world, and at those events, they're primarily technology events where we weave in a little bit of leadership and networking, but it feels authentic and its an event that software engineers are excited to be. >> Five events per day, that's incredible. So, VMware became a partner back in 2015, when you had around nine or 10,000 members. Now, today, its over 137,000 global members. Talk to us about the strategic partnership with VMware and what that's enabled Women Who Code to achieve. >> Yeah, we can't accomplish what we accomplish without the partners that support us. We try not to charge our members for anything. So, those 1,900 events we put on last year were free. We've given away $2.8 million in our weekly newsletter of scholarships, and conference tickets, encouraging our community to go out there in the broader tech community and we can do those things, we can launch in the cities that we can launch in, we can elevate women as leaders around the world, but we can only do that through partners, and VMware is one of our founding partners and what that took is someone in executive leadership to see who we could be, because we're very small, and we were very local when we came to VMware and talked to them about what our vision was and what we were going to accomplish and I say now, what I said back then, is we've only scratched the surface of what we are going to achieve. >> There's some commonalities, some parallels that Women Who Code has with VMware. You know, this is the third annual Women Transforming Technology event at VMware here and its sold out within hours. Walking into that room it's very empowering. The excitement and the passion are there and you just start to feel a sense of community. Tell me about the parallels that you see with VMware and some of the visions that they share about, not just raising awareness for the diversity gaps and challenges, but also taking a stand to be accountable in that space. And what they announced this morning with Stanford, with this massive $15 million investment in this Innovation Lab of actually wanting to dig deep into these barriers to help identify them to help eradicate them. What are some of the visionary similarities with Women Who Code and VMware? >> Yeah, so what you see with that is you know, you're investing in someone or an organization that already has the potential. Our average age of our community is 30. We have a lot of trouble claiming that you achieve what you achieve in your career, because of us. We know we play a part in it, but we know that potential, that raw power, exists within you, and when someone sees and knows that that's there and gives you what you need to be able to harness that potential, you are able to achieve great things, global things. You're able to change the world, and that's what we do for our members and their careers, and that's what our partners, like VMware do for us. >> I saw on your website: 80% of members experience a positive career impact, after joining Women Who Code. 80% of women, that's huge. >> Yeah, and a lot of that comes from the people that you connect with, the sense of belonging. We had a women at the end of Hackathon, in Manila come up to our leaders, there, and she started crying. She said, "I was about to leave the industry and I realize I have a place." And that sense of belonging that you get from coming to a Women Who Code event that's very welcoming, it can really help to override all of those unconscious biases that you encounter every day, throughout the course of your career, and it helps you to realize, "I'm not alone. There's a lot of really smart, talented women in the tech industry, who want me to be in my job and being in my job isn't just for me. I'm lifting up the people around me, as well." >> So one of the things that we hear a lot about is a lot of focus on STEM programs and getting young girls interested in STEM fields to study in college, but another thing that's huge is the attrition rates. Women are leaving technology at alarming rates, and a lot of people think it's to go off and have children, and it's actually not the case. What are some of the things that have surprised you about women kind of in that, maybe, mid-stage of their career that are leaving, and how can Women Who Code help to impact that, positively? >> Yeah, so what you're speaking to is definitely the data showing that women are leaving their technical careers at a rate of 50% at the mid-career level, and they're leaving their overall careers, if you aggregate women in careers, at a rate of 20% over a 30 year period, so that gap is huge and the industry is a great industry for women. You've got a lot of job security, a lot of job opportunity, a lot of flexibility. All of these things are great for women and their careers, but what you're encountering is often being the only, or one of the only, and you really don't overcome that, until you're getting above 20%, 25%, 30% of that feeling of being the only on a team, and what I think is the biggest issue with women coming into their careers at what kind of wears you down is the unconscious bias. It's something that you encounter on a daily, or multiple times a day basis. That thing that if you complained about a single one of them, you'd be the weird person who complains, at your company. And so, what Women Who Code really does is: one, it helps to create a sense of belonging, it helps to build domain-specific and non-domain-specific skills, it helps you to envision your career, not just the next step in your career, but the step after that, and the step after that, so it's really working to combat those things that you're to, on a daily basis, to provide that sense of community, to remind you, you do belong, and to really help you envision and achieve your career goals, long-term. >> So you have about 137,000 members, globally. And when we had Lily Chang on earlier, she was talking about the Shanghai and Beijing and kind of what that sort of thing meant to her going back there now, on the board. Tell us, maybe give me an example of a real shining star, who joined Women Who Code and was able to get that support, and that guidance, and that camaraderie to continue to be successful, and actually be promoted, and succeed. >> Yeah, so one example that I love is a woman came up to me at an event, last year, and she said, "Hey Alaina, I was going to the Women Who Code Python events, and I now, today, because of what I learned, ended up choosing a path in data science. I'm a senior data scientist, and this year, I'm being flown across country to speak, as an expert in data science. I would not be in this career path, without Women Who Code." Another story that I love is a woman who came up to me at a Hackathon and she told me her story that she had joined Women Who Code, in February, and she was going to our events and kind of figured out what she wanted to do, and by the summer she had transitioned into a new job, gotten a job with The Weather Channel, as a software engineer, and she was making more than double any salary that she had had prior to that. >> Wow. >> And so its career direction, competing job offers, which really increases your likelihood of having a higher salary, those are kind of two examples that I love. The one thing that we haven't talked about is our leadership program. We have a global leadership program, which really actions you to build skill-based volunteering and become a local tech leader. It opens up lines of communication between you and executives at your company. You often get called in as a thought leader at companies. You typically will receive a promotion or a pay increase, at a higher rate than you would otherwise. Some of our leaders get press mentions, get invited to be speakers at conferences, or even advisors on advisory boards. And so, when I look at the stories that are coming from our leaders, one of my favorite stories is a woman in Atlanta. She had a master's in CS. She was inside of the box, you know, the person that every company wants to hire. She was incredibly shy, and when she stepped up as a Women Who Code leader she said, "Oh Alaina, I'm going to be the worst leader." And, okay you've got this. At her first event, she stoop up and she was like, "My name's Erica. Feel free to ask me questions," and kind of sat down, as quickly as possible, but she stood in the front of that room. She began to be perceived by the community, and by herself, as a leader. And in under one year, she was invited, she didn't even apply, to speak at three different tech conferences, and she went from barely being able to say her name in front of a nice community to giving a talk to a standing-room-only crowd. >> Wow, very impactful. And is that for other opportunities that you guys deliver, in terms of public speaking, or was that because she was able to, through Women Who Code, to start to get more confidence in her own capabilities and in her own skin? >> Experience, confidence, self-perception, community-perception, I had one lead at our community tell me that she became a leader at Women Who Code, by regularly attending events. One day, the leader was running late, so she said, "Oh, well, you know I can probably get this started. I've been coming enough," so she went and stood at the front of the room, welcomed everyone, got everything going, said our pitch and she said, by the end of that three-hour event, people thought she was a leader and she began to think, "Oh yeah, I'm a leader," and she says, "Hey, I know that I can get an interview anywhere I want. I know that this opens doors for me." I had one leader tell me that she interviewed with SpaceX, and they specifically told her in the interview that they were impressed with her Women Who Code leadership and that was one of the reasons they were interviewing her. >> Wow, what have been some of the things that have really blown you away, in the few years that this organization has been around? >> It's just the individual stories. It's, every step of the way, the impact that it has in the lives of our leaders in our community. And I honestly feel, everyday, that I get to do this for a job. >> With what VMware announced this morning, with Stanford and this huge investment that they're making into Women's Leadership and Innovation Lab, to look at some significant barriers that women in technology are facing and to identify those barriers that we can then eradicate, what are some of the things that you're looking forward to, from that research and how you think that can actually benefit Women Who Code? >> Yeah, I'm very excited to see what comes out from there. I think we need a lot more research to help us to understand at what point things are happening and what things you can be doing that really help to overcome. I think that combining research with the real-world, in-person action that Women Who Code does and the work that we do with our community would have an even bigger impact. >> I also think what it speaks to is accountability. You know, a very large, very successful, 20-year-old organizations standing up saying, "We actually want to study this," and I think that there's a message there of accountability, which is, I think, a very important one that other organizations can definitely learn from. >> Yeah, I think that also they're going to an organization outside of them and funding that. And so, the research that comes out of there might come back and say, "You're doing this wrong. This is how you can be doing it better." And so, the fact that they're willing to make an investment and say, "Hey, we want to see this better, not only for us. It's not just going to be internal. This data's going out to the world." That's an investment in global change. That's not just holding that in at a personal or organizational level. >> Right, so in addition to that news that came out today, what are some of the things that you're going to walk away, from this third annual Women Transforming Technology event going, "Ah, that was awesome. Now, this gives me even more ideas for Women Who Code." >> Yeah, I think this is a great opportunity to connect with, especially, women who are in leadership positions and figure out how we can better service women at the higher tiers of their career, because you don't stop needing support, and you don't stop growing your career, once you become a director or a vice president. You continue to invest in your career, and you continue to needs support. And so, I'm really looking for ways that we can better serve those women. >> And hopefully, we start to see that attrition number at 50% start to come down. >> Alaina: Definitely. >> Alaina, thanks so much for your time. It was a pleasure to chat with you, and we wish you continued success with Women Who Code. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for watching. I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE, on the ground at VMware, for the third annual Women Transforming Technology event. Thanks for watching. (funky electronic music)

(electronic music) >> Announcer: From the VMware campus in Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE! Covering women transforming technology. >> Hi, welcome to theCube. Lisa Martin on the ground at the 3rd Annual Women Transforming Technology event at VMware in Palo Alto, and I'm joined by an author and a senior VMware engineer, Pratima Rao Gluckman. Welcome to the Cube, Pratima. >> Thank you, Lisa. It's great to be here >> It's great to have you here. So you have been an engineer here for about ten years. You knew from when you were a kid, love this, engineer, you knew you wanted to be that. You fell in love with your first programming class. It was like a Jerry McGuire, you complete me kind of moment I'm imagining. Tell me a little bit about your career in engineering and specifically as a female. >> Okay, so I was raised, born and raised, in India, and I grew up in an environment where I was gender blind. You know, my oldest sister played cricket for the country. >> Lisa: Wow! >> And it was a man's game! You know and a lot of people kind of talked about that, but it wasn't like she couldn't do it, right? So, I always grew up with this notion that I could do anything, and I could be whoever I wanted to be. And then I came to the United States, and that whole narrative stayed with me, the meritocracy narrative. Like you work hard, you know, society, the world will take care of you, and good things will happen, but it wasn't until 2016 was when I had this aha moment, and that's when I suddenly felt, suddenly I was aware of my gender, and I was like, okay I'm a female in tech, and there's lots of challenges for women in tech. And I didn't quite realize that. It was just that aha moment, and VMware has been a great company. I've been with VMware for nine years, I started as an engineer, and I moved into engineering management. We had Diane Greene who founded the company, the culture was always meritocratic, but I think something in 2016 kind of made me just thinking about my career and thinking about the careers of the women around me, I felt like we were stuck. But at the same time be focused on the women that were successful, for instance Yanbing Li, who's our senior VP and general manager of our storage business. And we were talking about her, and I said, this is what I said, I said, "There are some women who are successful despite everything "that we're dealing with, and I just want "to know their stories, and I'm going to write this book." The moment I said that it just felt right. I felt like this was something I wanted to do, and the stories in this book are inspiring stories of these women, just listening to Laila Ali this morning, her inspirational story, and this book has around 19 stories of these executive women, and they're just not role models, I mean every story offers strategies of how to thrive in the tech world. >> So interesting that first of all I love the title, Pratima, of this book, "Nevertheless She Persisted." So simple, so articulate, and so inspiring. So interesting, though, that you were working as an engineer for quite a few years before you realized, kind of looked around, like, whoa, this is a challenge that I'm actually living in. Yanbing is a CUBE alumni, I love her Twitter handle. So you said all right, I want to talk to some women who have been persistent and successful in their tech careers, as kind of the genesis of the book. Talk to us about, maybe, of those 19 interviews that range from, what, c-levels to VPs to directors. What are some of the stories that you found, what kind of blew your mind of, wow, I didn't know that you came from that kind of background? >> So when I started off I was very ambitious. I said I'd go interview CEO women, and I did a lot of research, and I found some very disturbing facts. You know, Fortune Magazine lists Fortune 500 companies, and they rank them based on their prior year's fiscal revenues, and from that data there were 24 women CEOs in 2014. That number dropped to 21 in 2015, and it dropped again in 2016, but it went up slightly in 2017 to 32 women, which is promising, but back in 2018 we're down to 24. So we have very very few women CEOs, and when I started off I said I'll talk to the CEO women, and I couldn't find any CEO women, my network, my friends' network, And so I dropped one level and I said let me go talk to SVPs and when I looked at VMware and VMware's network, Yanbing was one of them, so she's in the book, and then I reached out to contacts outside of my network. So I have some women from LinkedIn, I have Google, I have Facebook, I have some women from startups. So I have around four CEOs in the book, I've got, and what's great about this book is it's got a diverse set of women. Right? They have different titles; I've got directors, senior directors, VPs, Senior VPs, GMs, and CEOs. And some of them have PhDs, some of them have a Master's Degree, and some actually don't have formal training in computer science. I thought this would be interesting because a woman with any background can relate to it. Right? And so that was helpful. And so that's kind of how I went off and I started to write this book. And when I interviewed these women, there was a common theme that just kept emerging, and that was persistence. And they persisted against gender bias, stereotype threat, just the negative messages from media and society. I mean like Laila Ali was talking about just even the messages she got from her dad. >> Right. >> Right? Someone who was so close to her who basically said "Women can't box." And that didn't stop her; I mean she persisted. When I was listening to her, she didn't use the word, but, you know, she said she was believing in herself and all that, but she persisted through all those negative messages, right? And she said no one can tell her what to do. (laughs) >> Yeah her confidence is very loud and clear, and I think that you do find women, and I imagine some of them are some of the interviewees in your book, who have that natural confidence, and as you were saying when Muhammad Ali was trying to talk her out of it, and trying to, as she said, "He tried to get me think it was my idea," but she just knew, well no, this is what I want to do. And she had that confidence. Did you find that a lot of the women leaders in this book had that natural confidence? Like you grew up in an environment where you just believed "I can do this, my sister's playing cricket." Did you find that was a common thread, or did you find some great examples of women who wanted to do something, but just thought "Can I do this?" And "How do I do that?" What was the kind of confidence level that you saw? >> I was surprised because I had a question on imposter syndrome, and I asked these women, Telle Whiteney, who's the CEO, she was the CEO, ex-CEO >> Lisa: Grace Hopper >> Yes. The founder of Grace Hopper. I asked her about imposter syndrome and this is what she told me, she said "I feel like I'm not good enough" and that actually gave me goosebumps. I remember I was sitting in front of greatness and this is what she was telling me. And then I asked her "How do you overcome it?" and she said "I just show up the next day." And that actually helped me with this book because I am not an author. >> That's persistence. >> I mean I am an author now but 2 years ago when I started to write this, writing is not my forte. I'm a technologist, I build teams, I manage teams, I ship products, I ship technical products, but everyday I woke up and I said, "I'm feeling like an imposter." It was just her voice right? Yanbing also feels the same way, I mean she does feel times where she feels like, "I'm lacking confidence here." Majority of the people actually, pretty much all the women, this one woman, Patty Hatter, didn't feel like she had imposter syndrome but the rest of them face it everyday. Talia Malachi who's a principal engineer at VMWare, it's very hard to be a PE, she said that she fights it every day, and that was surprising to me, right? Because I was sitting in front of all these women, they were confident, they've achieved so much, but they struggle with that every day. But all they do is they persist, they show up the next day. They take those little steps and they have these goals and they're very intentional and purposeful, I mean just like what Layla said, right? She said, "Everything that I've done in the last 20 years "has been intentional and purposeful." And that's what these women did. And I learned so much from them because 20 years ago I was a drifter (laughs) you know I just kind drifted and I didn't realize that I could set a goal and I could reach it and I could do all these amazing things, and I didn't think any of this was possible for me. But I'm hoping that some girl somewhere can read this book and say "You know what this is possible", right? This is possible and you know role models, I think we need lots of these role models. >> We do I think, you know imposter syndrome I've suffered for it for so long before I even knew what it was and I'll be honest with you even finding out that it was a legitimate issue was (exhales) okay I'm not the only one. So I think it's important that you, that these women and youth are your voice, in your book, identified it. This is something I face everyday even though you may look at me on the outside and think, "She's so successful, she's got everything." And we're human. And Laila Ali talked about of having to revisit that inner lawyer, that sometimes she goes silent, sometimes the pilot light goes out and needs to be reignited or turned back up. I think that is just giving people permission, especially women, and I've felt that in the keynote, giving us permission to go, "Ah, you're not going to feel that everyday, "you're not going to feel it everyday." Get up the next day to your point, keep persisting and pursuing your purpose is in and of itself so incredibly empowering. >> Right but also imposter syndrome is good for you and I talk about that a little bit in the book. And you know why it's good for you? It's you getting out of your comfort zone, you're trying something different, and it's natural to feel that way, but once you get over it, you've mastered that, and Laila talked about it too today she said, "You get uncomfortable to the point "where you get comfortable." >> Lisa: Yes. >> So every time that you find that you have this imposter syndrome, just remember that greatness is right around the corner. >> Yep. I always say "Get uncomfortably uncomfortable". >> Pratima: Yes. >> And I loved how she said that today. So one of the big news of the day is VMWare with Stanford announcing that they are investing $15,000,000 in a new Women's Leadership Innovation Lab at Stanford. Phenomenal. >> Pratima: Yes. >> And they're really going to start studying diversity and there's so many different gaps that we face, wage gap, age gap, gender gap, you know mothers vs motherless gap, and one of the things that was really interesting that, I've heard this before, that the press release actually cited a McKinsey report that says, "Companies with diversity "on their executive staff are 21% more profitable." >> Yes. >> And that just seems like a, no duh, Kind of thing to me for organizations like VMWare and your other partners in this consortium of Wt Squared to get on board to say, "Well of course." Thought diversity is so important and it actually is demonstrated to impact a companies' profitability. >> Right, yeah. And that's true, I just hope that more people listen to it and internalize it, and organizations internalize that, and what VMWare's doing is fantastic. I mean I'm so proud to be part of this company that's doing this. And you Shelly talked about change right? She said, "I think, right now the way I feel "about this whole thing, is we need to stop talking about "diversity and inclusion, we just need to say "enough is enough, this is important, let's just do it." >> Lisa: We should make this a part of our DNA. >> Exactly. Just make it, why do we have to fight for all this, right? It's just pointless and you know, men have wives and daughters and mothers and you know, It impacts societies as a whole and organizations, and we have so much research on this and what I like about what the Stanford Research Lab is doing is, they're actually working with woman all the way from middle-school to high-school to the executive suite, and that's amazing because research has now shown, there was a report in March 2014 by a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, for Judith Warner, and so she documented, just with the rate of change, like I talked with all the percentages and the number of women CEOs, just with that rate of change, the equality of men and women at the top will not occur until 2085. >> Lisa: Oh my goodness. >> That's 63 years from now. That means all our daughters would be retired by then. My daughters was born on 2013 and so she won't live in a world of female leaders that's representative of the population. And so that realization actually really, really, really broke my heart and that made me want to write this book, to create these role models. And what Stanford is doing, is they're going to work on this and I'm hoping that they can make that transition sooner. Like we don't have to wait 'till 2085. I want this for my daughter. >> It has to be accelerated, yes. >> It has to be accelerated and I think all of us need to do that, our daughters should be in the 20s, 30s when this happens, not when they're in their 70s. >> Lisa: And retired. >> And retired, I mean we don't want that. And we don't know how that number's going to get pushed further, right? Like if we don't do anything now... It. (exhales) >> Lisa: Right. 2085 becomes, what? >> I know! It's insane. >> In the spirit of being persistent, with the theme of this 3rd annual Wt Squared being Inclusion in Action, you're a manager and in a people or hiring role, tell me about the culture on your team and how your awareness and your passion for creating change here, lasting change. How are you actually creating that inclusion through action in your role at VMWare? >> So what I do is when I have to hire engineers on my team, I talk to my recruiter, have a conversation, I'm like, "I need more diversity." It's just not women, I want diversity with the men too. I want different races, different cultures because I believe that if I have a diverse team I'm going to be successful. So it's almost like I'm being selfish but that is very important. So I have that conversation with my recruiters, so I kind have an expectation set. And then we go through their hiring process and I'm very aware of just the hiring panel, like who I put on the panel, I make sure to have at least a women on the panel and have some diversity. My team right now is not really that diverse and I'm working hard to make that because it is hard, you know the pipeline has to get built at a certain point, and then start getting those resumes, but I try to have at least one female on the panel, and during the selection process the first thing I'll tell them is, let's get the elephant out of the room, age, gender, whatever, like let's take that out, let's just talk about skills and how well this person has done in an interview. And that's how I conducted and you know I've had fairly good success of hiring women on the team. But I've also seen that it's hard to retain women because they tend to drop-out faster than the men and so it's constant, it's just constant work to make that happen. >> Yeah. I wish we had more time to talk about retention because it is a huge issue. So the book is Nevertheless, She Persisted. Where can people get a copy of the book? >> So you can get it on Amazon, that's, I think, the best place to get it. You can also get it from my publisher's site which is FriesenPress. >> Excellent well Pratima thank you so much for stopping by. >> Thank you. >> And sharing your passion, how your persisting, and how you're also helping more of us learn how to find that voice and pursue our passions, thank you. >> Thank you. >> We want to thank you for watching. We are TheCUBE on the ground at VMWare for the Third Annual Women Transforming Technology Event. I'm Lisa Martin thanks for watching. (upbeat music)