>>Hi, everyone. Welcome to the cubes presentation of the eight of us startup showcase open cloud innovations. This is season two episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from ABC ecosystems today. Uh, episode one, steam is the open source community and open cloud innovations. I'm Sean for your host got two great guests, Webb brown CEO of coop costs and as Thielen, head of business development, coop quest, gentlemen, thanks for coming on the cube for the showcase 80, but startups. >>Thanks for having a Sean. Great to be back, uh, really excited for the discussion we have here. >>I keep alumni from many, many coupons go. You guys are in a hot area right now, monitoring and reducing the Kubernetes spend. Okay. So first of all, we know one thing for sure. Kubernetes is the hottest thing going on because of all the benefits. So take us through you guys. Macro view of this market. Kubernetes is growing, what's going on with the company. What is your company's role? >>Yeah, so we've definitely seen this growth firsthand with our customers in addition to the broader market. Um, you know, and I think we believe that that's really indicative of the value that Kubernetes provides, right? And a lot of that is just faster time to market more scalability, improved agility for developer teams and, you know, there's even more there, but it's a really exciting time for our company and also for the broader cloud native community. Um, so what that means for our company is, you know, we're, we're scaling up quickly to meet our users and support our users, every, you know, metric that our company's grown about four X over the last year, including our team. Um, and the reason that one's the most important is just because, you know, the, the more folks and the larger that our company is, the better that we can support our users and help them monitor and reduce those costs, which ultimately makes Kubernetes easier to use for customers and users out there on the market. >>Okay. So I want to get into why Kubernetes is costing so much. Obviously the growth is there, but before we get there, what is the background? What's the origination story? Where did coop costs come from? Obviously you guys have a great name costs. Qube you guys probably reduced costs and Kubernetes great name, but what's the origination story. How'd you guys get here? What HR you scratching? What problem are you solving? >>So yeah, John, you, you guessed it, uh, you know, oftentimes the, the name is a dead giveaway there where we're cost monitoring cost management solutions for Kubernetes and cloud native. Um, and backstory here is our founding team was at Google before starting the company. Um, we were working on infrastructure monitoring, um, both on internal infrastructure, as well as Google cloud. Um, we had a handful of our teammates join the Kubernetes effort, you know, early days. And, uh, we saw a lot of teams, you know, struggling with the problems we're solving. We were solving internally at Google and we're we're solving today. Um, and to speak to those problems a little bit, uh, you know, you, you, you touched on how just scale alone is making this come to the forefront, right. You know, there's now many billions of dollars being spent on CU, um, that is bringing this issue, uh, to make it a business critical questions that is being asked in lots of organizations. Um, you know, that combined with, you know, the dynamic nature and complexity of Kubernetes, um, makes it really hard to manage, um, you know, costs, uh, when you scale across a very large organization. Um, so teams turned to coop costs today, you know, thousands of them do, uh, to get monitoring in place, you know, including alerts, recurring reports and like dynamic management insights or automation. >>Yeah. I know we talked to CubeCon before Webb and I want to come back to the problem statement because when you have these emerging growth areas that are really relevant and enabling technologies, um, you move to the next point of failure. And so, so you scaling these abstraction layers. Now services are being turned on more and more keeping it as clusters are out there. So I have to ask you, what is the main cost driver problem that's happening in the cube space that you guys are addressing? Is it just sheer volume? Is it different classes of services? Is it like different things are kind of working together, different monitoring tools? Is it not a platform and take us through the, the problem area? What do you guys see this? >>Yeah, the number one problem area is still actually what, uh, the CNCF fin ops survey highlighted earlier this year, um, which is that approximately two thirds of companies still don't have kind of baseline to visibility into spend when they moved to Kubernetes. Um, so, you know, even if you had a really complex, you know, chargeback program in place, when you're building all your applications on BMS, you move to Kubernetes and most teams again, can't answer these really simple questions. Um, so we're able to give them that visibility in real time, so they can start breaking these problems down. Right. They can start to see that, okay, it's these, you know, the deployments are staple sets that are driving our costs or no, it's actually, you know, these workloads that are talking to, you know, S3 buckets and, you know, really driving, you know, egress costs. Um, so it's really about first and foremost, just getting the visibility, getting the eyes and ears. We're able to give that to teams in real time at the largest scale Kubernetes clusters in the world. Um, and again, most teams, when they first start working with us, don't have that visibility, not having that visibility can have a whole bunch of downstream impacts, um, including kind of not getting, you know, costs right. You know, performance, right. Et cetera. >>Well, let's get into that downstream benefit, uh, um, problems and or situations. But the first question I have just throw naysayer comment at you would be like, oh, wait, I have all this cost monitoring stuff already. What's different about Kubernetes. Why what's what's the problem I can are my other tool is going to work for me. How do you answer that one? >>Yeah. So, you know, I think first and foremost containers are very dynamic right there. They're often complex, often transient and consume variable cluster resources. And so as much as this enables teams to contract construct powerful solutions, um, the associated costs and actually tracking those, those different variables can be really difficult. And so that's why we see why a solution like food costs. That's purpose built for developers using Kubernetes is really necessary because some of those older, you know, traditional cloud cost optimization tools are just not as fit for, for this space specifically. >>Yeah. I think that's exactly right, Alex. And I would add to that just the way that software is being architected deployed and managed is fundamentally changing with Kubernetes, right? It is deeply impacting every part of scifi software delivery process. And through that, you know, decisions are getting made and, you know, engineers are ultimately being empowered, um, to make more, you know, costs impacting decisions. Um, and so we've seen, you know, organizations that get real time kind of built for Kubernetes are built for cloud native, um, benefit from that massively throughout their, their culture, um, you know, cost performance, et cetera. >>Uh, well, can you just give a quick example because I think that's a great point. The architectures are shifting, they're changing there's new things coming in, so it's not like you can use an old tool and just retrofit it. That's sometimes that's awkward. What specific things you see changing with Kubernetes that's that environments are leveraging that's good. >>Yeah. Yeah. Um, one would be all these Kubernetes primitives are concepts that didn't exist before. Right. So, um, you know, I'm not, you know, managing just a generic workload, I'm managing a staple set and, or, you know, three replica sets. Right. And so having a language that is very much tailored towards all of these Kubernetes concepts and abstractions, et cetera. Um, but then secondly, it was like, you know, we're seeing this very obvious, you know, push towards microservices where, you know, typically again, you're shipping faster, um, you know, teams are making more distributed or decentralized decisions, uh, where there's not one single point where you can kind of gate check everything. Um, and that's a great thing for innovation, right? We can move much faster. Um, but for some teams, um, you know, not using a tool like coop costs, that means sacrificing having a safety net in place, right. >>Or guard rails in place to really help manage and monitor this. And I would just say, lastly, you know, uh, a solution like coop costs because it's built for Kubernetes sits in your infrastructure, um, it can be deployed with a single helmet stall. You don't have to share any data remotely. Um, but because it's listening to your infrastructure, it can give you data in real time. Right. And so we're moving from this world where you can make real time automated decisions or manual decisions as opposed to waiting for a bill, you know, a day, two days or a week later, um, when it may be already too late, you know, to avoid, >>Or he got the extra costs and you know what, he wants that. And he got to fight for a refund. Oh yeah. I threw a switch or wasn't paying attention or human error or code because a lot of automation is going on. So I could see that as a benefit. I gotta, I gotta ask the question on, um, developer uptake, because develop, you mentioned a good point. There that's another key modern dynamic developers are in, in the moment making decisions on security, on policy, um, things to do in the CIC D pipeline. So if I'm a developer, how do I engage with Qube cost? Do I have to, can I just download something? Is it easy? How's the onboarding process for your customers? >>Yeah. Great, great question. Um, so, you know, first and foremost, I think this gets to the roots of our company and the roots of coop costs, which is, you know, born in open-source, everything we do is built on top of open source. Uh, so the answer is, you know, you can go out and install it in minutes. Like, you know, thousands of other teams have, um, it is, you know, the, the recommended route or preferred route on our side is, you know, a helm installed. Um, again, you don't have to share any data remotely. You can truly not lock down, you know, namespace eat grass, for example, on the coop cost namespace. Um, and yeah, and in minutes you'll have this visibility and can start to see, you know, really interesting metrics that, again, most teams, when we started working with them, either didn't have them in place at all, or they had a really rough estimate based on maybe even a coop cost Scruff on a dashboard that they installed. >>How does cube cost provide the visibility across the environment? How do you guys actually make it work? >>Yeah, so we, you know, sit in your infrastructure. Um, we have integrations with, um, for on-prem like custom pricing sheets, uh, with card providers will integrate with your actual billing data, um, so that we can, uh, listen for events in your infrastructure, say like a nude node coming up, or a new pod being scheduled, et cetera. Um, we take that information, join with your billing data, whether it's on-prem or in one of the big three cloud providers. And then again, we can, in real time tell you the cost of, you know, any dimension of your infrastructure, whether it's one of the backing, you know, virtual assets you're using, or one of the application dimensions like a label or annotation namespace, you know, pod container, you name it >>Awesome. Alex, what's your take on the landscape with, with the customers as they look the cost reductions. I mean, everyone loves cost reductions as a, certainly I love the safety net comment that Webb made, but at the end of the day, Kubernetes is not so much a cost driver. It's more of a, I want the modern apps faster. Right? So, so, so people who are buying Kubernetes usually aren't price sensitive, but they also don't want to get gouged either on mistakes. Where is the customer path here around Kubernetes cost management and reduction and a scale? >>Yeah. So I think one thing that we're looking forward to hearing this upcoming year, just like we did last year is continuing to work with the various tools that customers are already using and, you know, meeting those customers where they are. So some examples of that are, you know, working with like CICT tools out there. Like we have a great integration with armoring Spinnaker to help customers actually take the insights from coop costs and deploy those, um, in a more efficient manner. Um, we're also working with a lot of partners, like, you know, for fauna to help customers visualize our data and, you know, integrate with or rancher, which are management platforms for Kubernetes. And all of that I think is just to make cost come more to the forefront of the conversation when folks are using Kubernetes and provide that, that data to customers and all the various tools that they're using across the ecosystem. Um, so I think we really want to surface this and make costs more of a first-class citizen across, you know, the, the ecosystem and then the community partners. >>What's your strategy of the biz dev side. As you guys look at a growing ecosystem with CubeCon CNCF, you mentioned that earlier, um, the community is growing. It's always been growing fast. You know, the number of people entering in are amazing, but now that we start going, you know, the S curves kicking in, um, integration and interoperability and openness is always a key part of company success. What's Qube costs is vision on how you're going to do biz dev going forward. >>Absolutely. So, you know, our products opensource that is deeply important to our company, we're always going to continue to drive innovation on our open source product. Um, as Webb mentioned, you know, we have thousands of teams that are, that are using our product. And most of that is actually on the free, but something that we want to make sure continues to be available for the community and continue to bring that development for the community. And so I think a part of that is making sure that we're working with folks not just on the commercial side, but also those open source, um, types of products, right? So, you know, for Fanta is open source Spinnaker's are open source. I think a lot of the biz dev strategies just sticking to our roots and make sure that we continue to drive it a strong open source presence and product for, for our community of users, keep that >>And a, an open source and commercial and keep it stable. Well, I got to ask you, obviously, the wave is here. I always joke, uh, going back. I remember when the word Kubernetes was just kicked around pre uh, the OpenStack days many, many years ago. It's the luxury of being a old cube guy that I am 11 years doing the cube, um, all fun. But if we remember talking to him in the early days, is that with Kubernetes was, if, if it worked, the, the phrase was rising, tide floats all boats, I would say right now, the tides rising pretty well right now, you guys are in a good spot with the cube costs. Are there areas that you see coming where cost monitoring, um, is going to expand more? Where do you see the Kubernetes? Um, what's the aperture, if you will, of the, of the cost monitoring space at your end that you think you can address. >>Yeah, John, I think you're exactly right. This, uh, tide has risen and it just keeps riding rising, right? Like, um, you know, the, the sheer number of organizations we use C using Kubernetes at massive scale is just mind blowing at this point. Um, you know, what we see is this really natural pattern for teams to start using a solution like coop costs, uh, start with, again, either limited or no visibility, get that visibility in place, and then really develop an action plan from there. And that could again be, you know, different governance solutions like alerts or, you know, management reports or, you know, engineering team reports, et cetera. Um, but it's really about, you know, phase two of taking that information and really starting to do something with it. Right. Um, we, we are seeing and expect to see more teams turn to an increasing amount of, of automation to do that. Um, but ultimately that is, uh, very much after you get this baseline highly accurate, uh, visibility that you feel very comfortable making, potentially critical, very critical related to reliability, performance decisions within your infrastructure. >>Yeah. I think getting it right key, you mentioned baseline. Let me ask you a quick follow-up on that. How fast can companies get there when you say baseline, there's probably levels of baseline. Obviously all environments are different now. Not all one's the same, but what's just anecdotally you see, as that baseline, how fast we will get there, is there a certain minimum viable configuration or architecture? Just take us through your thoughts on that. >>Yeah. Great question. It definitely depends on organizational complexity and, you know, can depend on applicational application complexity as well. But I would say most importantly is, um, you know, the, the array of cost centers, departments, you know, complexity across the org as opposed to, you know, technological. Um, so I would say for, you know, less complex organizations, we've seen it happen in, you know, hours or, you know, a day less, et cetera. Um, because that's, you know, one or two or a smaller engineering games, they can share that visibility really quickly. And, um, you know, they may be familiar with Kubernetes and they just get it right away. Um, for larger organizations, we've seen it take kind of up 90 days where it's really about infusing this kind of into their DNA. When again, there may not have been a visibility or transparency here before. Um, again, I think the, the, the bulk of the time there is really about kind of the cultural element, um, and kind of awareness building, um, and just buy in throughout the organization. >>Awesome. Well, guys got a great product. Congratulations, final question for both of you, it's early days in Kubernetes, even though the tide is rising, keeps rising, more boats are coming in. Harbor is getting bigger, whatever, whatever metaphor you want to use, it's really going great. You guys are seeing customer adoption. We're seeing cloud native. I was told that my friends at dock or the container side is going crazy as well. Everything's going great in cloud native. What's the vision on the innovation? How do you guys continue to push the envelope on value in open source and in the commercial area? What's the vision? >>Yeah, I think there's, there's many areas here and I know Alex will have more to add here. Um, but you know, one area that I know is relevant to his world is just more, really interesting integrations, right? So he mentioned coop costs, insights, powering decisions, and say Spinnaker, right? I think more and more of this tool chain really coming together and really seeing the benefits of all this interoperability. Right. Um, so that I think combined with, uh, just more and more intelligence and automation being deployed again, that's only after the fact that teams are really comfortable with his decisions and the information and the decisions that are being made. Um, but I think that increasingly we see the community again, being ready to leverage this information and really powerful ways. Um, just because, you know, as teams scale, there's just a lot to manage. And so a team, you know, leveraging automation can, you know, supercharge them and in really impactful ways. >>Awesome, great integration integrations, Alex, expand on that. A whole different kind of set of business development integrations. When you have lots of tool chains, lots of platforms and tools kind of coming together, sharing data, working together, automating together. >>Well. Yeah, we, so I think it's going to be super important to keep a pulse on the new tools. Right. Make sure that we're on the forefront of what customers are using and just continuing to meet them where they are. And a lot of that honestly, is working with AWS too, right? Like they have great services and EKS and managed Prometheus's. Um, so we want to make sure that we continue to work with that team and support their services as that launched as well. >>Great stuff. I got a couple of minutes left. I felt I'll throw one more question in there since I got two great experts here. Um, just, you know, a little bit change of pace, more of an industry question. That's really no wrong answer, but I'd love to get your reaction to, um, the SAS conversation cloud has changed what used to be SAS. SAS was, oh yeah. Software as a service. Now that you have all these kinds of new kinds of you have automation, horizontally, scalable cloud and edge, you now have vertical machine learning. Data-driven insights. A lot of things in the stack are changing. So the question is what's the new SAS look like it's the same as the old SAS? Or is it a new kind of refactoring of what SAS is? What's your take on this? >>Yeah. Um, there's a web, please jump in here wherever. But in, in my view, um, it's a spectrum, right? There's there's customers that are on both ends of this. Some customers just want a fully hosted, fully managed product that wouldn't benefit from the luxury of not having to do any, any sort of infrastructure management or patching or anything like that. And they just want to consume a great product. Um, on the other hand, there's other customers that have more highly regulated industries or security requirements, and they're going to need things to deploy in their environment. Um, right now QP cost is, is self hosted. But I think in the future, we want to make sure that, you know, we, we have versions of our product available for customers across that entire spectrum. Um, so that, you know, if somebody wants the benefit of just not having to manage anything, they can use a fully self hosted sat or a fully multitenant managed SAS, or, you know, other customers can use a self hosted product. And then there's going to be customers that are in the middle, right, where there's certain components that are okay to be a SAS or hosted elsewhere. But then there's going to be components that are really important to keep in their own environment. So I think, uh, it's really across the board and it's going to depend on customer and customer, but it's important to make sure we have options for all of them. >>Great guys, we have SAS, same as the old SAS. What's the SAS playbook. Now >>I think it is such a deep and interesting question and one that, um, it's going to touch so many aspects of software and on our lives, I predict that we'll continue to see this, um, you know, tension or real trade-off across on the one hand convenience. And now on the other hand, security, privacy and control. Um, and I think, you know, like Alex mentioned, you know, different organizations are going to make different decisions here based on kind of their relative trade-offs. Um, I think it's going to be of epic proportions. I think, you know, we'll look back on this period and just say that, you know, this was one of the foundational questions of how to get this right. We ultimately view it as like, again, we want to offer choice, um, and make, uh, make every choice be great, but let our users, uh, pick the right one, given their profile on those, on those streets. >>I think, I think it's a great comment choice. And also you got now dimensions of implementations, right? Multitenant, custom regulated, secure. I want have all these controls. Um, it's great. No one, no one SaaS rules the world, so to speak. So it's again, great, great dynamic. But ultimately, if you want to leverage the data, is it horizontally addressable? MultiTech and again, this is a whole nother ball game we're watching this closely and you guys are in the middle of it with cube costs, as you guys are creating that baseline for customers. Uh, congratulations. Uh, great to see you where thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for having us again. Okay. Great. Conservation aiders startup showcase open cloud innovators here. Open source is driving a lot of value as it goes. Commercial, going to the next generation. This is season two episode, one of the AWS startup series with the cube. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson, and this is part of the AWS startup showcase season two. I'm very happy to have with me Webb brown CEO of Qube cost web. Welcome to the program. How are you? I'm doing >>Great. It's great to be here, Dave. Thank you so much for having me really excited for the discussion. >>Good to see you. I guess we saw each other last down in Los Angeles for, for coop con, >>Right? Exactly. Right. Still feeling the energy from that event. Hoping we can be back together in person. Not, not too long from now. >>Yeah. Well I'll second that, well, let, let's get straight to it. Tell us, tell us about Q cost. What do you guys do? And I think just central to that question is what gives you guys the right to exist? What problem are you solving? >>Yeah, I love the question. So first and foremost coupe costs, we provide cost monitoring and cost management solutions for teams running Kubernetes or cloud native workloads. Everything we do is, is built on open source. Our founding team was working on infrastructure monitoring solutions at Google before this. And, and what we saw was as we had several teammates join the Kubernetes effort very early days at Google, we saw teams really struggling even just to, to monitor and understand Kubernetes costs, right? There's lots of complexity with the Kubernetes scheduler and being able to answer the question of what is the cost of an application or what is the cost of, you know, a team department, et cetera. And the workloads that they're deploying was really hard for most teams. If you look at CNCF study from late last year, still today, about two thirds of teams, can't answer where they are spending money. And what we saw when digging in there is that when you can't answer that question, it's really hard to be efficient. And by be efficient, we, we mean get the right balance between cost and performance and reliability. So we help teams in, in these areas and more where, you know, now have thousands of teams using our product. You know, we feel where we're just getting started on our mission as well. >>So when people hear it, when people think of coop costs, they w they naturally associate that with Kubernetes. And they think, well, Kubernetes is open-source wait, isn't that free? So what, so what costs are you tracking? Exactly. >>Yeah. Great question. We would track costs in any environment where you can run Kubernetes. So if that's on-prem, you can bring a custom pricing sheet to monitor, say the cost of your underlying CPU course, you know, GPU's memory, et cetera. If you're running in a cloud environment, we have integrations with Azure, GCP and AWS, where we would be able to reflect all the complexity of, you know, whatever deployment you have, whether you're using a spot and multiple regions where you have complex enterprise discounts are eyes savings plans, you name it, we'd be reflecting it. So it's really about, you know, not just generic prices, it's about getting the right price for your organization. >>So the infrastructure that goes into this calculation can be on premises or off premises in the form of cloud. I heard that, right? >>Yeah, that's exactly right. So all of those environments, we'd give you a visibility into all the resources that your Kubernetes clusters are consuming. Again, that's, you know, nodes, load balancers, every resource that it's directly touching also have the ability for you to pull in external costs, right? So if you have Kubernetes tenants that are using S3 or cloud sequel, or, you know, another external cloud service, we would make that connection for you. And then lastly, if you have shared costs, sometimes even like the cost of a dev ops team, we'd give you the ability to kind of allocate that back to your core infrastructure, which may be used for showback or even charged back across your, your, >>So who are the folks in an organization that are tapping into this, are these, you know, our, our, our, our developers being encouraged to be cognizant of these costs throughout the process, or is this just sort of a CFO on down visibility tool? >>Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question. And what we see is a major transformation here where, you know, kind of shift left from a cost perspective where more and more engineering teams are interested in just being aware or having transparency. So they can build a culture of accountability with costs, right, with the amazing ability to rapidly push to production and iterate, you know, with microservices and Kubernetes, it's hard to have this kind of, you know, just wait for say the finance team to review this at the end of the month or the end of the quarter. We see this increasingly be being viewed in real time by infrastructure teams, by engineering teams. Now finance is still a very important stakeholder and, you know, absolutely has a very important like seat at the table in these conversations. But increasingly these are, again, real time or near real time engineering decisions that are really moving the needle on cost and cost efficiency, overtime and performance as well. >>Now, can you use this to model what costs might be, or is this, or is this, you know, you, you mentioned monitoring in real time, is this only for pulling information as it exists, or could you do, could you use some of the aspects of, of, of your toolset to make a decision, whether something makes more sense to run on your existing infrastructure on premises versus moving into, you know, working in a cloud? Is that something that is designed for or not? >>Great question. So we do have the ability to predict cost cost going forward, based on everything we've learned about your environment, whether you're in multi-cloud hybrid cloud, et cetera. So some really interesting functionality there and a lot more coming later this year, because we do see more and more teams wanting to model the state of the future, right? As you deploy really complex technologies, like say the cluster auto scale or, or HPA in different environments, it can really challenging to do an apples to apples comparison, and we help teams do exactly that. And again, gonna have a lot more interesting announcements here later this year. >>So later that later this year, meaning not in the next few minutes while we're together, >>Nothing new to announce on that front today, but I would say, you know, expect later this quarter for us to have more. >>Okay, that sounds good. Now, now you touched on this a little bit, but I want to hone in on why this is particularly relevant now and moving into the future. You know, we've always tracking costs has always been important, you know, even before the Dawn of cloud, but why is it increasingly important? And, and, you know, there are, there are alternatives for cost tracking legacy alternatives that are out there. So talk about why it's particularly relevant now and tell us what your super power is. You know, what's the, all right. All right. >>Secrets, >>Secret sauce is something you can't share super power. You can talk about >>Absolutely >>NDA. So yes, >>Your superpower. Yeah. Great questions. So for support, just to, to, to touch on, what's fundamentally changing to make a company like ours, you know, impactful or relevant. There's really three things here first and foremost is the new abstractions or complexities that come with Kubernetes, right. Super powerful, but from a cost standpoint, make it considerably harder to accurately track costs. And the big transformation here is, you know, with Kubernetes, you can, at any given moment have 50 applications running on a single node or a single VM, you can fast forward five minutes and there could be 50 entirely new applications, right? So just assigning that VM or, you know, tagging that VM back to an application or team or department really is not relevant in those places. So just the new complexity related to costs makes this problem harder for teams. Second is what we touch on. >>Just again, the power of Cooney. Kubernetes is the ability to allow distributed engineering teams to work on many microservices concurrently. So you're no longer in a lot of ways managing this problem where they centralized kind of single point of decision-making. Oftentimes these decisions are distributed across not only your infrastructure team, but your engineering team. So just the way these decisions and, you know, innovation is happening is changing how you manage these. And lastly, it's just scale, right? The, the cloud and, you know, Kubernetes continue to be incredibly successful. You know, where as goop costs now managing billions of dollars as these numbers get bigger and bigger just becomes more of a business focus and business critical issue. So those are the, you know, the three kind of underlying themes that are changing. When I talk about what we do, that makes us special. It's really this like foundational layer of visibility that we build. >>And what we can do is in real time with a very high degree of accuracy at the largest Kubernetes clusters in the world, give you visibility at any dimension. And so from there, you can do things like have real-time monitoring. You can have real-time insights, you can allow automation to make decisions on these, you know, inputs or data feeds. You can set alerts, you can set recurring reports. All of these things are made possible because of, you know, the, the, I would say really hard work that we've done to, again, give this real-time visibility with a high degree of accuracy at, at crazy scale. >>So if we were to play little make-believe for a moment, pretend like I'm a skeptical sitting on the fence. Not sure if I want to go down this path kind of person. And I say, you know what, web, I think I have a really good handle on all of my costs so far. What would you hit me with as, as, as an example of something that people really didn't expect until they, until they were running coup costs and they had actually had that visibility, what are some of the things that people are surprised by? >>Yeah. Great question. There'd be a number, number one. I'd have, you know, one data point I want to get from you, which is, you know, for your organization or for all of your clusters, what is your cost efficiency? Can you answer that with a high degree of accuracy and by cost efficiency? >>And the answer is now. So tell me, tell me, tell me how to sign up for coupons. >>Yeah. And so the answer, the answer there is you can go get our community version, you know, you can be up and running in minutes, you don't have to share any data, right? Like it is, you know, simply a helmet install, but cost efficiency is this notion of, of every dollar that you are spending on provision resources. What percentage of those dollars are you actually utilizing? And we have, you know, we, we now have, you know, thousands of teams using our product and we've worked with, you know, hundreds of them really closely, you know, this is, you know, that's not the entire market, but in our large sample sizes, we regularly see teams start in the low 20% cost efficiency, meaning that approximately 80% is quote waste time and time. Again, we see teams just be shocked by this number. And again, most of it is not because they were measuring it and accurately or anything like that. Most teams again today still just don't have that visibility until they start working with this. >>So is that, is that sort of the, I in my house household, certain members seem to only believe that there is one position for a light switch, and that would be the on position. Is there, is this a bit of a parallel where, where folks are, are spinning up resources and then just out of sight, out of mind, maybe not spinning them down when not needed. Yeah. >>Yeah. It's, it's, that's definitely one class of the challenges I would say, you know, so today, if you look at our product, we have 14 different insights across like different dimensions of your infrastructure one, or, or I would say several of those relate to exactly what you just described, which is you spin up a VM, you spend a bit load balancer, you spin up an external IP address. You're using it. You're not paying for it. Another class is this notion of, again, I don't have an understanding of what my resources cost. I also don't have a great sense for how much my microservice or application will need. So I'm just going to turn on all the lights, which is, or I'm going to drastically over provision again, I don't know the cost, so I'm just going to kind of set it and forget it. And if my application is performing, you know, then you know, we're doing well here. Again, with this visibility, you can get much more specific, much more accurate, much more actionable with making that trade off, you know, again, down to the individual pod workload, you know, deployment, et cetera. >>So we've, we've touched on this a bit peripherally, but give me an example. You know, you, you run into someone who happens to be a happy user of coop cost. What's the dream story that you love to hear from them about what life was before was before coop costs and what life was like after? >>Yeah, there's a lot, a lot of different dimensions there. You know, one, one is, you know, working with an infrastructure team that, that used to get asked these questions a lot about, you know, why does this cost so much, or why are we spending this and Kubernetes or, or wire expenses growing the rate that they are, you know, like when this, when this works, you know, engineering teams or infrastructure teams, aren't getting asked those questions, right? The tool could cost itself is getting asked that and answering that. So I think one is infrastructure teams, not fielding those types of questions as much. Secondly, is just, you know, more and more teams rolling this out throughout their organization. And ultimately just getting, building a culture of awareness, like ownership, accountability. And then, you know, we just increasingly are seeing teams, you know, find this right balance between cost and performance again. So, you know, in certain cases, improving performance, when are resource bottlenecks in places and other places, you know, reducing costs, you know, by 10 plus million dollars, ultimately at the end of the day, we like to see just teams being more comfortable running their workloads in Kubernetes, right? That is the ultimate sign of success is just an organization, feels comfortable with how they're deploying, how they're managing, how they're spending in Kubernetes. Again, whether that be, you know, on-prem or transitioning from on-prem to a cloud in multiple clouds, et cetera. >>So we're talking to you today as part of the second season of the AWS startup showcase. What's, what's the relationship there with, with AWS? >>So it is the, the largest platform for coop costs being run today. So I believe, you know, at this point, at least a thousand different organizations running our product on AWS hosted clusters, whether they're, you know, ETS or, or self-managed, but you know, a growing number of those on, on EKS. And, you know, we've just, you know, absolutely loved working with the team across, I think at this point, you know, six or seven different groups from marketplace to their containers team, you know, obviously, you know, ETS and others, and just very much see them continuing to push the boundaries on what's possible from a scale and, you know, ease of use and, you know, just breadth of, of offering to this market. >>Well, we really look forward to having you back and hearing about some of these announcements, things that are, that are coming down the line. So we'll definitely have to touch base in the future, but just one, one final, more general question for you, where do you see Kubernetes in general going in 2022? Is it sort of a linear growth? Is there some, is there an inflection point that we see, you know, a good percentage of software that's running enterprises right now is already in that open source category, but what are your thoughts on Kubernetes in 2022? >>Yeah, I think, you know, the one word is everywhere is where I see Kubernetes in 2022, like very deep in the like large and really complex enterprises. Right. So I think you'll see just, you know, major bets there. And I think you'll continue to see more engineers adopted. And I think you'll also continue to see, you know, more and more flavors of it, right? So, you know, some teams find that running Kubernetes anymore serverless fashion is, is right for them. Others find that, you know, having full control, you know, at every part of the stack, including running their own autoscaler for example is really powerful. So I think just, you know, you'll see more and more options. And again, I think teams increasingly adopting the right, you know, abstraction level on top of Kubernetes that works for their workloads and their organizations >>Sounds good. We'll we'll, we'll come back in 2023 and we'll check and see how that, how that all panned out. Well, it's been great talking to you today as part of the startup showcase. Really appreciate it. Great to see you again. It's right about the time where I can still tell you happy new year, because we're still, we're still in January here. Hope you have a great 2022 with that from me, Dave Nicholson, part of the cube part of AWS startup showcase season two, I'd like to thank everyone for joining and stay with us for the best in hybrid tech coverage.

>> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 21 live form Los Angeles. Lisa Martin, with Dave Nicholson. And we've got a CUBE alum back with us. Webb Brown is back. The co-founder and CEO of Kubecost. Welcome back! >> Thank you so much. It's great to be back. It's been right at two years, a lot's happening in our community and ecosystem as well as with our open source project and company. So awesome with that. >> Give the audience an overview in case they're not familiar with Kubecost. And then talk to us about this explosive growth that you've seen since we last saw you in person. >> Yeah, absolutely. So Kubecost provides cost management solutions purpose-built for teams throwing in Kubernetes and Cloud Native. Right? So everything we do is built on open source. All of our products can be installed in minutes. We give teams visibility into spend, then help them optimize it and govern it over time. So it's been a busy two years since we last talked, we have grown the team about, you know, 5 x, so like right around 20 people today. We now have thousands of mostly medium and large sized enterprises using the product. You know, that's north of a 10 x growth since we launched just before, you know, KubeCon San Diego, now managing billions of dollars of spin and, you know, I feel like, we're just getting started. So it's an incredibly exciting time for us as a company and also just great to be back in person with our friends in the community. >> This community is such a strong community. And it's great to see people back here. I agree. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> So Kubecost, obviously you talk about cost optimization, but it's, you really, you're an insight engine in the sense that if you're looking at costs, you have to measure that against what you're getting for that cost. >> Absolutely. So what are some of the insights that your platform or that your tool set offers. >> Yeah, absolutely, so, you know, we think about our product is first and foremost, like visibility and monitoring and then insights and optimization and then governance. You know, if you talk to most teams today, they're still kind of getting that visibility, but once you do it quickly leads in how do we optimize? And then we're going to give you insights at every part of the stack, right? So like at the infrastructure layer, thinking about things like Spot and RIS and savings plans, et cetera. At the Kubernetes orchestration layer, thinking about things like auto scaling and, you know, setting requests and limits, et cetera, all the way up to like the application layer with all of that being purpose-built for, you know, Cloud Native Kubernetes. So the way we work as you deploy our product in your environment, anywhere you're running Kubernetes, 1.11 or above we'll run. And we're going to start dynamically generating these insights in minutes and they're real time. And again, they scaled to the largest Kubernetes clusters in the world. >> And you said, you've had a thousand or so customers in the medium to large enterprise. These are large organizations, probably brand names, I imagine we are familiar with that are leaning on Kubecost to help get that visibility that before they did not have the ability to get. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So definitely our users of our thousands of users, skews heavily towards, you know, medium and large side enterprise. Working with some amazing companies like Adobe, who, you know, just have such high scale and like complex and sophisticated infrastructure. So, you know, I think this is very natural in what we expect, which is like, as you start spending more resources, you know, missing visibility, having unoptimized infrastructure starts to be more costly. >> Absolutely. >> And we typically see as once that gets into like the multiple head count, right? And it starts to, you know, spend some, may make sense to spend some time optimizing and monitoring and, you know, putting the learning in place. So you can manage it more effectively as time goes on. >> Do you have any metrics or any X factor ranges of the costs that you've actually saved customers? >> Yeah. I mean, we've saved multiple customers in them, like many of millions of dollars at this point, >> So we're talking big. >> Really big. So yeah, we're now managing more than $2 billion of spin. So like some really big savings on a per customer base, but it's really common where we're saving, you know, north of 30%, sometimes up to 70% on your Kubernetes and related spin. And so we're giving you insights into your Kubernetes cluster and again, the full stack there, but also giving you visibility and insights into external things like external disk or cloud storage buckets or, you know, cloud sequel that, that sort of stuff, external cloud services. >> Taking those blinders off >> Exactly. And giving you that unified, you know, real time picture again, that accurately reflects everything that's going on in your system. >> So when these insights are produced or revealed, are the responses automated? or are they then manually applied? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. We support both and we support both in different ways By default, when you deploy Kubecost, and again it's, today it's Helm Install. It can be running in your cluster in, you know, minutes or less, it's deployed in read only mode. And by the way, you don't share any data externally, it's all in your local environment. So we started generating these insights, you know, right when you install in your environment. >> Let me ask you about, I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you say you're generating an insight, are you just giving an answer and guidance? or you're providing the reader background on what leads to that insight? >> Yeah. You know, is that a philosophical question of, do you need to provide the user rationale for the insight? >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're doing this today and we'll do more, but one example is, you know, if you just look at this notion of setting requests and limits for your applications in Kubernetes, you know, if you, in simple forms, if you set a request too high, you're potentially wasting money because the Kubernetes scheduler is presenting that resource for you. If you set it too low, you're at risk of being CPU throttled, right? So communicating that symbiotic relationship and the risk on either side really helps the team understand why do I need to strike this balance, right? It's not just cost it's performance and reliability as well. So absolutely given that background and again, out of the box we're read only, but we also have automation in our product with our cluster controller. So you can dynamically do things like right-size your infrastructure, or, you know, move workloads to Spot, et cetera. But we also have integrations with a bunch of tooling in this ecosystem. So like Prometheus native, you know, Alert Manager native, just launched an integration with Spinnaker and Armory where you can like dynamically at the time of deployment, you know, right size and have insights. So you can expect to see more from us there. But we very much think about automation is twofold. One, you know, building trust in Kubecost and our insights and adopting them over time. But then two is meeting you where you are with your existing tooling, whether it's your CICB pipeline, observability or, you know, existing kind of workflow automation system. >> Meeting customers where they are is, is critical these days. >> Absolutely. I think, especially in this market, right? where we have the potential to have so much interoperability and all these things working in harmony and also, you know, there's, there's a lot of booths back here, right? So we, you know, we have complex tech stacks and, you know, in certain cases we feel like when we bring you to our UI or API's or, you know, automation or COI's, we can do things more effective. But oftentimes when we bring that data to you, we can be more effective again, that's, you know, coming, bringing your data to Chronosphere or Prometheus or Grafana, you know, all of the tooling that you're already using on a daily, regular basis. >> Bringing that data into the tool is just another example of the value in data that the organizations can actually harness that value and unlock it. >> Webb: Yeah. >> There's so much potential there for them to be more competitive, for them to be able to develop products and services faster. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're just seeing the coming of age with, you know, cost metrics into that equation. We now live in a world with Kubernetes as this amazing innovation platform where as an engineer, I can go spin up some pretty costly resources, really fast, and that's a great thing for innovation, right? But it also kind of pushes some of the accountability or awareness down to the individual >> Webb: IC who needs to be aware, you know, what, you know, things generally cost at a minimum in like a directional way, so they can make informed decisions again, when they think about this cost performance, reliability, trade-off. >> Lisa: Where are your customer conversations? Are your target users, DevOps folks? I was just wondering where finance might be in this whole game. >> Yeah, it's a great question. Given the fact that we are kind of open source first and started with open source, we, you know, 95% of the time when we start working with an infrastructure engineering team or dev ops team. They've already installed our product. They're already familiar with what we're doing, but then increasingly and increasingly fast, you know, finance is being brought into the equation and, you know, management is being brought into the equation. And I think it's a function of what we were talking about where, you know, 70% of teams grew their Kubernetes spend over the last year, you know, 20% of them more than doubled. So, you know, these are starting to be real, you know, expense items where finance is increasingly aware of what's going on. So yeah, they're coming into the picture, but it's simply thought that you starting with, and, and working with the infrastructure team, that's actually kind of putting some of these insights into action or hooking us into their pipelines or something. >> When you think of developers going out and grabbing resources, and you think of a, an insight tool that looks at controlling cost, that could seem like an inhibitor. But really if you're talking about how to efficiently use whatever resources you have to be able to have access to in terms of dollars, you could sell this to the developers on that basis. It's like, look, you have these 10 things that you want to be able to do. If you don't optimize using a tool like this, you're only going to be able to do 4 of them. >> Without a doubt. Yeah. And you know, us as our founding team, all engineers, you know, we were the ones getting those questions of, you know, how have we already spent, you know, our budget on just this project? We have these three others we want to do, right? Or why are costs going up as quickly as they are? You know, what are we spending on this application, instead of that kind of being a manual lift, like, let me go do a bunch of analysis or come back with answers. It's tools to where not only can management answer those questions themselves, but like engineering teams can make informed opportunity costs and optimizations decisions itself, whether it's tooling and automation doing it for them or them applying things, you know, directly. >> Lisa: So a lot of growth. You talked about the growth on employees, the growth in revenue, what lies ahead for Kubecost? What are some of the things that are coming on the horizon that you're really excited about? >> Yeah, we very much feel like we're just getting started you know, just like we feel this ecosystem and community is, right? Like there's been tons of progress all around, but like, wow, it's still early days. So, you know, we, we did raise, you know, five and a half million dollars from, you know, First Round who is an amazing group to work with at the end of last year. So by growing the engineering team were able to do a lot more. We got a bunch of really big things coming across all parts of our product. You can think about one thing we're really excited that's in limit availability right now is our first hosted solution. It's our first SaaS solution. And this is critically important to us in that we want to give teams the option to, if you want to own and control your data and never egress anything outside of your cluster, you can do that with our deploy product. You can do that with our open source. You can truly lock down namespace to egress and never send a byte out. Or if you'd like the convenience of us to manage it for you and be kind of stewards of your data, we're going to offer, you know, a great offering there too. So that's unlimited availability day. We're going to have a lot more announcements coming there, but we see those being at feature parity, you know, between like our enterprise offerings and our hosted solution and just, you know, a lot more coming with, you know, visibility, some more like GPU insights, you know, metrics coming quickly, a lot more with automation coming and then more integrations for governance. Again, kind of talked about Spinnaker and things like that. A lot more really interesting ones coming. >> So five and a half million raised in the last round of funding. Where are you going to be applying that? What are some of the growth engines that you want to tune with that money? >> Yeah, so, you know, first and foremost, it was really growing the engineering team, right? So we've, you know, like 4 x the engineering team in the last year, and just have an amazing group of engineers. We want to continue to do that. >> Webb: We're kind of super early on the like, you know, marketing and sales side. We're going to start thinking about that more and more, you know, our approach first off was like, we want to solve a really valuable problem and doing it in a way that is super compelling. And we think that when you do that, you know, good things happen. I think that's some of our Google background, which is like, you build a great search engine and like, you know, good things generally happen. So we're just super focused on, again, working with great users, you know, building great products that meet them where they are and solve problems that are really important to them. >> Lisa: Awesome. Well, congratulations on all the trajectory of success since we last saw you in person. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you back on the show, looking forward to, so folks can go to www.kubecost.com to learn more and see some of those announcements coming down the pike. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Don't you make it two years before you come back. >> Webb: I would love to be back. I hope we're back bigger than ever, you know, next year, but it has been such a pleasure, you know, last time and this time, thank you so much for having me, you know, I love being part of the show and the community at large. >> It's a great community and we appreciate you sharing all your insights. >> Thank you so much. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 21. We back with our next guest shortly. We'll see you there.

>>Live from San Diego, California at the cube, covering to clock in cloud native con brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem Marsh. >>Welcome back to the cube bumps to men. And my cohost is John Troyer and we're in San Diego for coupon cloud native con 2019. Our fourth year of covering this show over 12,000 in attendance, such growth in the ecosystem. Lots of different projects to talk about, not just Kubernetes, but joining us first time on the program. Longtime watcher Webb Brown, who's the cofounder of cube costs, yet another project here in, in the uh, ecosystem. So thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. All right. So, uh, as a, you know, every time we get a founder on his, you know, tell us a little bit about your background and give us that why of what led to the creation of QT. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, our founding team all worked in infrastructure monitoring at Google for a long time and, you know, working in container orchestration environments, uh, we saw this challenge where teams that were moving and Coopernetti's, uh, were finding themselves, uh, kind of easy to let costs kind of get away from them. Um, there are a lot of moving parts that weren't there before. There's a lot of dynamic aspects that are hard to just really get your, your arms around it. Um, and we found ourselves just really pulled towards helping teams, you know, solve those problems. Um, so yeah, that was a little over a year ago today when we made the plunge and, and here we are. >>Yeah. You know, we remember the days when, you know, public cloud was supposed to be simple and inexpensive and we found out that maybe it's neither of those things necessarily. Um, you know, let's click it a little bit as to, you know, containers, Kubernetes, what's different about this then? Everything else we've been doing in public cloud, uh, for the last, you know, 10. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, so we believe in like, it's ideal state. It still has the ability to be exactly those things, right? Simple and much more affordable. Uh, but we think that there's like tools and elements of this that create risk to the contrary. Um, and we think kind of, you know, there's three things that are different here. Uh, first is that you now have access to these incredibly powerful abstractions that are available at global scale that give you access to these really expensive resources, right? And mistakes can be costly there. Uh, two is you're seeing this like move towards decentralized deployments where you're now having individual product or application engineering teams managing their own applications, even provisioning their own infrastructure and it's a lot higher velocity, a lot higher, like dynamic environments. And then three is just, uh, it's much harder, harder to have visibility when you're in these multitenant environments. Right? You know, you can now have many teams, many even departments shipping on a single VM or a, a S a small set of EMS. >>All right, if you could just give us kind of bumper sticker or sticker on the project itself. How long has it been around? Uh, it fell ball and get hub. I see. And how many people are using it, >>growth, things like that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So we started the project about a year ago. Um, the, the get hub project specifically is for doing cross cloud cost allocation. Um, there's a lot of challenges for like measuring the cost of say, CPU, Ram, storage, et cetera. When you talk about having, you know, spot instances and U S central on AWS versus, you know, committed use in, you know, us central on TCP. So this project helps develop a uniform standard and library to measure costs across all these different environments. Um, hundreds of teams are using it today. Uh, we have integrations with Azure, GCP, AWS, and we also support on-prem Kubernetes clusters. What kind of a minor detail web, but I mean, those costs change week over week as, uh, announcements happen as instances go up and down. I mean, how, how does the project and the community come together to, to even track all that? >>Yeah, no, we know it well. I mean, we're living and breathing and seeing exactly that. Um, and that speaks to, you know, really the complexity here. Um, and the project is designed to support exactly that. So constantly refreshing billing data, uh, dynamically looking at wind pods or jobs are coming up and going down and in real time look at the cost of the nodes that they're actually running on. Um, that is both the beauty and the challenge that we face is things can change so quickly and oftentimes that's for the better. But it's also a challenge to just stay on top of all the changes happening. What does, does the community help assemble that data? Are there AP? I mean, does that, I don't think there's cost API APIs for every cloud or maybe I'm wrong. So we have, we do have a billing API integrations for these three cloud providers. So like I mentioned, AWS, Azure, GCP, uh, the community has been instrumental in finding all these edge cases, right? So like, you know, GPU in this environment versus, you know, storage in this environment. And that's, it's really this long tail of complexity that's really hard for getting this right. And the ecosystem has been absolutely key to finding all those like nooks and crannies to get this just right. Okay. >>Just finishing that thought on, on the billing, you've got billing API in the public cloud, but on the, on premises environment, uh, your mileage may vary, I'm assuming. How does that fit in? >>Yeah, you can, you can think about is kind of bring your own pricing sheet, right? So like we want to support your environment and that could be you care about, you know, just the price of CPU, memory, storage, GPS, etc. But it could also be, you know, you have some centralized ops teams that you want to allocate or like amortize the costs of across all of your tenants in that cluster. So we want to meet you where you are and give you full custom, you know, like inputs to tailor this to your environment. Okay. >>We've talked about the project. There's also a company, a associated with us, help us understand the relationship, the size of the team, uh, kind of the business strategy there. >>Yeah, absolutely. So we have an open core model where our commercial product is built on top of this open source library. You can think about it providing a lot of the, the UI and enterprise management functionality, things like, you know, multi-cloud view, uh, longterm durable storage, SAML integrations, that sort of stuff. Um, you know, we're a small team of engineers right now. Um, you know, all engineers. So we're living and breathing the like actual, you know, writing go, you know, writing code every day. Well, w we're a lot of, we live in a world. Uh, we're maybe, I dunno for post dev ops yet, but there's a lot of dev ops here at this show. You, we've got many flavors of dev ops, dev, sec ops. I mean, is this, who is, and I'm, where I'm going is, is there a dev cost ops developers now have to be worrying about the cost of what they're doing, who, who is paying attention to the, to the, uh, the, the, the cash register. >>The at the top of the coop cross. Yeah. Stack. >> Yeah. I think it's very similar to what you just said is all of this is in flux, right? And there's so many different models, uh, that are, that are working and are constantly evolving. Um, what we typically see is it's uh, someone from the finance org and someone from the dev ops org that is jointly caring about this, this picture. Um, so you know, we have opinions on how this can work really well, but we also love to just let the industry and you know, in different enterprises guide us and kind of meet them where they are. Um, but, but we think that this is going to be continuing to evolve and change for the years to come just cause so much. >>It's such a big challenge. I've talked to some large enterprises that they assign engineering resources to do the financial engineering thing and it seems that number one is the cloud providers should be able to put, put some, you know, pieces in place. Secondly, you know, automation intelligence of, you know, that this entire ecosystem should be able to help. There. Is that, is that really where your, your, your team and your project is focusing to, you know, to take that, I don't want that, you know, you should be building new apps and helping my business not sitting there watching the meters and saying, Oh wait, I need >>yeah. Turn some knobs. Yeah. So I think the first part of what you mentioned is very relevant and, and was kind of the kicker that really pushed us over the edge to start this project start this company is we saw teams that were building their own internal solutions are doing all this ad hoc analysis and Oh by the way, pretty much every team we talked to is doing it differently. So that was what our real inspiration to say, okay, we have to do this. Um, we absolutely see an evolution to just more and more automation and intelligence. But you have to think about cost is not an isolated variable. Cost is very closely linked to reliability and performance, stability, all of these things. So you want to be really thoughtful and really careful when you start handing this stuff over to an algorithm. Right? Because it can mean, you know, performance regressions, it can mean, so we, you know, we absolutely see the industry evolving there. >>Um, we see a lot of teams that then in our view are like, uh, rightfully cautious before kind of handing over the keys, uh, to, to an algorithm or set of algorithms that are going to really dial the lever for them on, you know, the right amount of say, memory, compute, et cetera. I imagine there's also tradeoffs between, uh, engineering resources and cost. Right. I could do it the, the, the S the fast way with one engineer and it, and it might have one cost application. I might, uh, sure I could get my cloud costs down, but it might've taken me, you know, 10 engineer months to do. So. There's all, it's interesting. Is there a conversation in the, like, let's use the community in the broader sense about how to do this kind of capacity management and trade offs. Is there an emerging, you know, it's hard in the OSS world if there's not a project around that you can gather around. >>How do you have a conversation around, you know, costs and engineering trade offs? Yeah, I think we're still really early here and I think there's still huge opportunity. Um, and we just feel that it's incredibly challenging if you just look at the engineering side, you know, there's so much uncertainty to go in and say what's it going to take to move us from, you know, on demand a spot or move us from one reason to the other or one provider to the other. Um, that it's really hard to really put an expected costs on that and do an appropriate ROI. Um, what we've seen that, uh, a lot of teams are able to really easily identify the low hanging fruit where there's a very clear ROI, but these like, you know, marginal decisions, absolutely think there's, uh, more frameworks and more tools that can help teams make those decisions. Well, all right, so >>love to get your personal viewpoint as you're working for a startup. You're here in this massive ecosystem to tell us about that kind of environment, how it is in this cloud native ecosystem. And, uh, you know, any specific things around, you know, the event itself, >>they are welcomed. Yeah. Um, so, you know, we're coming from Google and a lot of our exposure to bigger conferences was, you know, things, things like Google IO and Google specific events. Um, and, and those are amazing to have their own, you know, ecosystem and kind of atmosphere. But, but I've never felt energy like this. I've never seen so many things that are new. So many things are changing all at once. Um, that it just, it's impossible to not get here and be excited by this stuff, right. Of like, um, you know, a lot of us have ideas how things were of all, but I definitely can't claim to like, you know, have really any real conviction around how this broader ecosystem or law that, and that just adds to the excitement of so many things are improving and evolving all at the same time. >>Yeah. Do you feel a small company like yourself can get attention with everything that's going on here? >>Yeah. I mean, what we want to do is we want to be the very best at costs. And capacity and, and, and while that touches on many things, that's really small area. So, you know, our approach is we're not going to be everything. And, and while that can be hard at times, um, we think that's right for a small team. And that's my general advice to anybody that comes to this eco is, is finding a real problem, uh, and be comfortable not being everything for everybody, but go and solve that for a set of users and do it the best. All right. If you could just give you the final word here, what should we be looking for for from Q cost, uh, kind of over the next year? Yeah, I think just, uh, you know, really getting, going deeper and broader in costs and capacity management. >>That's bringing our tools to more platforms, more users, uh, more intelligence and, and automation over time, but just continue to approve a visibility to make this easier and easier for teams to make these appropriate tradeoffs where they invest engineering resource and how they optimize costs. All right, well what, Brian, thanks so much for joining us. We are welcome to welcome. We're glad to welcome cube cost to the cube alumni. Thank you so much, John Troyer. I'm Stu Miniman and check out the cube.net for all the coverage. Uh, we've been for years at this event, uh, in the U S we've also done the European shows and so much more come in three days, wall to wall coverage. Thanks for watching the cube.