>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering VMworld 2017! Brought to you by VMware and its ecosystem partners. (futuristic music) >> Welcome back everyone, we are live, here, in Las Vegas for VMworld 2017, I'm John Furrier, my cohost Dave Vellante, eighth year with theCUBE, proud to have two great guests, Josh Epstein, CMO of Kaminario and Eyal David, CTO of Kaminario, great to see you guys again! >> Likewise, great to be here! >> You guys had a great event in Boston recently, what's going on with you guys? Give me an update on the company. >> Sure, I'll go first. Kaminario's been around for awhile, but we've been, first of all, moved the headquarters over to east coast US, outside of Boston, Massachusetts, opened up a great new office space there. Got a lot going on from a product perspective, a lot going on from a go-to-market perspective, you see a lot happening in the all-flash space and the storage space in general, and just, really excited to take it to the next step. We see a lot of things happening here. >> It's a pretty big week this week. We saw Scott Dietzen from Pure Storage become the Chairman and Jean Carlo, ex-CISCO MNA guy from Silver Lake come in to be CEO, so Dave and I were speculating, All flash, a lot of, what's going on! A lot of people saying, woah, is it growing? Still a need for flash. What's the big hubbub about? >> So, we definitely see a change in the market, and the emergence of two different models. The way people used to buy storage, and the way next-generation application, cloud-scale application, software-to-servers, e-commerce, online businesses, need to buy storage. And their need for simplicity, performance and cost-efficiency at scale is still driving the need for flash storage, and we'll talk about this yet to come some more. >> And you guys see those as really distinct opportunities, is that right? Can you add some color to that, Josh? >> Yeah, I think that we see the flash space made up of two different markets, one is just the massive stocking function of traditional enterprise data centers, making the move en masse to flash. And there you have, obviously, the incumbent vendors with their flash solutions, you know. That's a dogfight, there's a lot of competition in there. There's this other market which we see growing more healthily, more organically, which is the growth of these cloud-scale applications. As Eyal said, flash provider, or, software-to-server providers, e-commerce providers, fintech, healthtech, these large, highly-scalable, database-driven cloud-scale applications. That means a different type of of scale, so that's where we see less competition from the incumbents and more opportunity -- >> What's different about that market, what's the requirement, what are they looking for that makes this a good engine for them? >> So one of the key requirements is agility and flexibility. One of the current characteristics is they don't really know what is going to be the next workload, how their workload is going to change in scale over time. So they need an infrastructure that can change and adapt to their needs, still deliver the same level of performance, still deliver the same level of simplicity. But have that flexibility to address their changing needs in capacity and performance, to address growth in customers, changing in workload application, without too much pre-planning. >> So I'd ask the question to you guys, I get this all the time. So since you guys are the gurus in the area. I get this question a lot, what is a modern data center? With all the action on private cloud happenings, true private cloud, they truly point out, people are re-tooling their data centers to operate like cloud, it's still on-premise. That's kind of the gateway to hypercloud, very clear. Public cloud, workloads, all bursting, that stuff's great. What's a modern architecture, what's a modern data center? When I hear that term, what do you guys mean? >> That's a great question. So the modern data center, or even the next generation data center is exactly that, one that allows enterprises to achieve the same levels of scalability, efficiency, as the hypercloud, but on-premise, or in a hybrid fashion. But it allows them to have that level of control against operation simplicity that's hard to come by, but on their own terms, adapting to their own needs. >> So without the need to build out a massive engineering team to build this from the ground up. >> So are the buyers different, are those two worlds coming together? I wonder if you could address that. >> Yeah, I think the buyers are, in fact, different. I think, now, you see a convergence over time as the classic enterprise data centers start to look more like a private cloud. But we see this growth in large-managed private cloud providers really exciting, and they come in different forms. You have the Telcos getting into the business, you have the outsourcers getting into the business, you have the traditional channel getting into the business. We have a great partnership with Vion, a big federal reseller, and using Kaminario as a flash service offering. And they start looking like a cloud provider, and they're thinking like a cloud provider. >> And what's the benefits then? Cause I was just looking at the gov cloud impact, I was just at the Amazon Public Sector Summit. Huge traction right now because it's so fast, you can get into the government cloud quickly. Why is that unique, why, as a service, and why are you guys really driving that? >> One, it fits with our architecture perfectly. But I think from a customer standpoint, the ability to procure, like, procuring from the cloud, but also to get the kind of services, you know, as people start re-engineering applications thinking about dev-ops, cloud-data-type applications, leveraging the same kind of utilities that they might get from an Amazon or an Ajer, from a managed private cloud provider, it becomes really important. >> And Al-fed ramp is there, you get all the federal information stuff going on around it. >> So I wonder how you deal with this problem, it's a relatively small company, you're up against the big guys, you say, it's like a rock fight. But you have an affinity to, let's say, SAS players. They like your product and it fits better with their vision. But then you have this big whale, saying, okay, I'm going to buy my HR software from, you know, some SAS provider, I'm going to do some, whatever, 70,000-person deployment, but, as a quid pro quo, you've got to buy my all-flash array. So you must see that all the time. When you peel back the covers, underneath that SAS provider, what do you really see? Like, they fence off, sort of, legacy-vendors' stuff, and they really drive in their core business with your modern platform? Or is it sort of just a mishmash? >> No, I think we're seeing a shift. I think what we're seeing is, some of the legacy architectures are running up against boundaries. Boundaries in terms of complexity, boundaries in terms of agility. Kaminario was built to scale from the get-go. It was built for performance and it was built for scale. And I think what we're seeing is, the main value of these SAS providers, as they're reaching scale, is the ability to deliver consistent performance, consistent cost-efficiency, and really, our predictability. The ability to sort of forecast in the future what cost structure's going to look like in order to continue to deliver high-performance to their own users. >> So the hypothetical example I gave, I'm sure you see it, but are you, you know, winning head-to-head in those environments, and your piece is growing, and that's sort of just a static one-time deal? >> That's exactly what we're seeing, so our main growth, our main focus is on these software-to-service companies or software-to-service departments within existing companies building these types of offerings to deliver this as a service consumption model. And you were asking about the back-end, in the back-end, these are often large-scale databases operating mixed types of workloads, for example, transaction processing, analytics, all at the same time. And the need to support these types of workloads requires an infrastructure that can deliver at-scale, consistent performance. And when we face off the legacy vendors in those environments, we win out. >> You have to be substantially better as a small company. You are, otherwise, you're out of business. >> Absolutely. >> And so, interesting thing about the flash market it, a lot of the big guys realized right away, wow, I'm way behind, so they went out and they bought a lot of startups. What happened, did they sort of pollute them, through the integration, or ... (laughing) >> I think the marketshare statistics are a little bit confusing, but what we see is, you know, the bulk of the legacy vendors, you know, push in what we call retro-fit flash, basically taking their old legacy architectures, their scale-up or scale-out architectures, and cramming flash into it, and basically, then, they don't bring the same kind of simplicity, same kind of agility, same kind of scalability as a built-for-flash-offering like Kaminario. >> Right, what about, you guys have some announcements this week? >> Yup, take that? >> Yeah, two weeks ago we announced our next-generation platform, K2.n, which is based on a fully-converged, NVIO mean over fabric back end. This is basically taking our core operating system, Vision OS, which is a mature and robust storage software stack with all the data services and enterprise features that enterprises need. And deliver it on an NVIO fabric backend which leverages the existing capability to aggregate capacity and compute, and take it to the next level, delivering a very scalable and agile storage cluster that allows you to mix and match different types of resources, to add and remove resources very dynamically, and make your data center responsive in minutes and not hours or days or even months. >> You guys are familiar with our service and research, and we're very excited about NVIO over fabric, because we've been talking about it since probably, maybe 2008, 2009, some type of ability to scale and to communicate, and that's here today, finally. How close are we to actually having a product in the field that I can actually deploy? >> We will actually be shipping this in Q1, the K2.N They added another layer on top of that, We also announced a new software platform called Kaminario Flex, which is a orchestration platform which rides on top of K2.N, and allows you to dynamically compose virtual arrays out of these NVME-connected resources. So I really take that, looking ahead, that the classic notion of a monolithic shared-storage array, is going to die over time. >> Well, here's the numbers. I mean, it's automatic, go ahead. >> Well no, this is the whole debate that we've been clearing up with the true, private cloud report. I mean, guys, no-brainer, check, as a service, as the future, so you're good there. (laughs) The true pilot board, too bad it shows the on-prem stuff is declining in general, that's settlement for buying boxes, and the old way of doing things. Labor's being automated away and shifted, that's pretty obvious. Enter your business model, right? I mean, this is perfect for any cloud deal. >> Right. >> The question is, track record, bulletproof, reliability, security, the table stays all shift, data protection, all these details, that's what they care. You guys check that box ... (laughing) >> So the disability takes vision away, so I'm going to take it to the next generation. Technology is what actually allows us to do that. Whether it's in a hypercloud or we're going into a managed cloud provider, that is becoming a very desired consumption model for a lot of the ads of service members, allows them to build such a flexible architecture, based on a mature software step. >> So you guys, really, from what I see is your strategy is, get this out there quickly from a tech standpoint, software, flex, and integration with cloud is critical. Because you can offload a lot of that heavy lifting on those unique requirements to the cloud guys, where the pre-existing tech exists. Did I get that right? >> Yeah and I think what we see is these managed cloud providers are going to want to have a say in it, they want to actually be part of the evolution of the platform, right? >> Yeah, go ahead, fine, it's your stop! You can always buy the servers more flash! (laughing) >> So talk about your channel, and you go to market, help us understand that a little bit better. >> Yeah, I think it's all about focus for Kaminario. I mean, let's face it, the flash space is competitive, right, if we're going to go head-to-head with everyone, kind of, pull one of these growth-at-all-cost models. And you see what the market values those types of companies. So we've been really focused in two ways. One, SAS providers, next-generation business. I mean, if we opportunistically find a VDI deal, okay, that's great, we have a great solution for VDI, but it's not something that we're going to go out and hunting day to day. The second is really to focus on channel partners. We've got a channel first model, really, effectively 100% of our new business in 2017 will come through a channel partner. Most of those channel partners are looking at developing some type of managed services offering as well, so you know, it's not just about the margin on the deal, it's about the longterm -- >> Cause they're trying to respond to the market transit and value. >> Exactly, so it's about focus on a relatively small number of channel partners that get it, that like our model, and again, it's just -- >> Hey, you'll make money from it, cause that's all, at the end of the day, you've got to get that leverage, because that's your David and Goliath story. >> Exactly, yeah. >> And, global footprint? Is it primarily US and Europe or -- >> Yeah, so it's been, we started in Israel, US has been a good focus, last year we opened up the UK and France, end of the great we opened up Korea, we're now in Singapore, we're moving into China through partners, and so yeah, this is a global story. Clearly, US is the, in terms of adoption of these server infrastructures, US is really the furthest ahead, but it's a global phenomenon. >> What do you make of the VMwear momentum? Because two years ago, VMwear was, the stock was sort of in the tank and there was no growth, and now it's on fire, the data center's on fire, you can't get data center space! (laughing) >> From my perspective, the fast adoption that VMwear had for new technologies, for adopting containers, for adopting cloud paradigms, for adopting this new delivery model, and enabling a fuller stack aligns very well with the kind of demands of the next-generation data system we talked about, where the management plane, the orchestration plane, is becoming more and more important in optimizing the way in this infrastructure gets delivered. So that's, I believe, what is driving that forward. >> Josh and Elay, thanks so much for coming out, coming our way, you guys, company watch, love the business model. The tech comes home, you get it with that integration, man there's not a leverage there, congratulations on your success! (laughing) Great business. TheCUBE bringing you the CUBE as a service, all flash content here! Back with more VMworld coverage after this short break. (futuristic music)