>>long from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering a ws re invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and in along with its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the Cube. Here live in Las Vegas for aws reinvent I'm John for a devil on the ads, always extracting the signal from the noise. We're here for 1/7 reinvent of the eight years that they've had at what a wave. One of the biggest waves is the modernization of procurement, the modernization of business, commercial business and the rapid acceleration of public sector. We're here with the chief of public sector for AWS. Teresa Carlson, vice president publics that globally great to have you >>so great to have the Q begin this year. We appreciate you being here, >>so we're just seeing so much acceleration of modernization. Even in the commercial side, 80 talks about transformation. It's just a hard core on the public sector side. You have so many different areas transforming faster because they haven't transformed before. That's correct. This is a lot of change. What's changed the most for you in your business? >>Well, again, I'll be here 10 years this mad that A B s and my eighth reinvent, and what really changed, which was very exciting this year, is on Monday. We had 550 international government executives here from 40 countries who were talking about their modernization efforts at every level. Now again, think about that. 40 different governments, 550 executives. We had a fantastic day for them planned. It was really phenomenal because the way that these international governments or think about their budget, how much are they going to use that for maintaining? And they want to get that lesson last. Beckett for Modernization The Thin John It's a Beckett for innovation so that they continue not only modernized, but they're really looking at innovation cycles. So that's a big one. And then you heard from somewhere customers at the breakfast this morning morning from from a T. F. As part of the Department of Justice. What they're doing out. I'll call to back on firearms. They completely made you the cloud. They got rid of 20 years of technical debt thio the Veterans Administration on what they're digging for V A benefits to educational institutions like our mighty >>nose, and he had on stages Kino, Cerner, which the health care companies and what struck me about that? I think it relates to your because I want to get your reaction is that the health care is such an acute example that everyone can relate to rising costs. So cloud helping reduce costs increase the efficiencies and patient care is a triple win. The same thing happens in public sector. There's no place to hide anymore. You have a bona fide efficiencies that could come right out of the gate with cloud plus innovation. And it's happening in all the sectors within the public sector. >>So true. Well, Cerner is a great example because they won the award at V a Veteran's administration to do the whole entire medical records modernization. So you have a company on stage that's commercial as I met, commercial as they are public sector that are going into these large modernization efforts. And as you sit on these air, not easy. This takes focus and leadership and a real culture change to make these things happen. >>You know, the international expansion is impressive. We saw each other in London. We did the health care drill down at your office is, of course, a national health. And then you guys were in Bahrain, and what I deserve is it's not like these organizations. They're way behind. I mean, especially the ones that it moved to. The clouds are moving really fast. So well, >>they don't have as much technical debt internationally. It's what we see here in the U. S. So, like I was just in Africa and you know what we talked about digitizing paper. Well, there's no technology on that >>end >>there. It's kind of exciting because they can literally start from square one and get going. And there's a really hunger and the need to make that happen. So it's different for every country in terms of where they are in their cloud journey. >>So I want to ask you about some of the big deals. I'll see Jet eyes in the news, and you can't talk about it because it's in protest and little legal issues. But you have a lot of big deals that you've done. You share some color commentary on from the big deals and what it really means. >>Yeah, well, first of all, let me just say with Department of Defense, Jet are no jet. I We have a very significant business, you know, doing work at every part of different defense. Army, Navy, Air Force in the intelligence community who has a mission for d o d terminus a t o N g eight in a row on And we are not slowing down in D. O d. We had, like, 250 people at a breakfast. Are Lantian yesterday giving ideas on what they're doing and sharing best practices around the fence. So we're not slowing down in D. O d. We're really excited. We have amazing partners. They're doing mission work with us. But in terms of some really kind of fend, things have happened. We did a press announcement today with Finn Rat, the financial regulatory authority here in the U. S. That regulates markets at this is the largest financial transactions you'll ever see being processed and run on the cloud. And the program is called Cat Consolidated Audit Trail. And if you remember the flash crash and the markets kind of going crazy from 2000 day in 2008 when it started, Finneran's started on a journey to try to understand why these market events were happening, and now they have once have been called CAT, which will do more than 100 billion market points a day that will be processed on the cloud. And this is what we know of right now, and they'll be looking for indicators of nefarious behavior within the markets. And we'll look for indicators on a continuous basis. Now what? We've talked about it. We don't even know what we don't know yet because we're getting so much data, we're going to start processing and crunching coming out of all kinds of groups that they're working with, that this is an important point even for Finn rep. They're gonna be retiring technical debt that they have. So they roll out Cat. They'll be retiring other systems, like oats and other programs that they >>just say so that flash crash is really important. Consolidated, honest, because the flash crash, we'll chalk it up to a glitch in the system. Translation. We don't really know what happened. Soto have a consolidated auto trail and having the data and the capabilities, I understand it is really, really important for transparency and confidence in the >>huge and by the way, thinner has been working with us since 2014. They're one of our best partners and are prolific users of the cloud. And I will tell you it's important that we have industries like thin red regulatory authorities, that air going in and saying, Look, we couldn't possibly do what we're doing without cloud computing. >>Tell me about the technical debt because I like this conversation is that we talk about in the commercial side and developer kind of thinking. Most businesses start ups, Whatever. What is technical debt meet in public sector? Can you be specific? >>Well, it's years and years of legacy applications that never had any modernization associated with them in public sector. You know now, because you've talked about these procurement, your very best of your very savvy now public sector >>like 1995 >>not for the faint of heart, for sure that when you do procurement over the years when they would do something they wouldn't build in at new innovations or modernizations. So if you think about if you build a data center today a traditional data center, it's outdated. Tomorrow, the same thing with the procurement. By the time that they delivered on those requirements. They were outdated. So technical debt then has been built up years of on years of not modernizing, just kind of maintaining a status quo with no new insides or analytics. You couldn't add any new tooling. So that is where you see agencies like a T F. That has said, Wow, if I'm gonna if I'm gonna have a modern agency that tracks things like forensics understands the machine learning of what's happening in justice and public safety, I need to have the most modern tools. And I can't do that on an outdated system. So that's what we kind of call technical death that just maintains that system without having anything new that you're adding to >>their capabilities lag. Everything's products bad. Okay, great. Thanks for definite. I gotta ask you about something that's near and dear to our heart collaboration. If you look at the big successes in the world and within Amazon Quantum Caltex partnering on the quantum side, you've done a lot of collaboration with Cal Cal Poly for ground station Amazon Educate. You've been very collaborative in your business, and that's a continuing to be a best practice you have now new things like the cloud innovation centers. Talk about that dynamic and how collaboration has become an important part of your business model. >>What we use their own principles from Amazon. We got building things in our plan. Innovation centers. We start out piloting those two to see, Could they work? And it's really a public private partnership between eight MPs and universities, but its universities that really want to do something. And Cal Poly's a great example. Arizona State University A great example. The number one most innovative university in the US for like, four years in a row. And what we do is we go in and we do these public sector challenges. So the collaboration happens. John, between the public sector Entity, university with students and us, and what we bring to the table is technical talent, air technology and our mechanisms and processes, like they're working backwards processes, and they were like, We want you to bring your best and brightest students. Let's bring public sector in the bowl. They bring challenges there, riel that we can take on, and then they can go back and absorb, and they're pretty exciting. I today I talked about we have over 44 today that we've documented were working at Cal Poly. The one in Arizona State University is about smart cities. And then you heard We're announcing new ones. We've got two in France, one in Germany now, one that we're doing on cybersecurity with our mighty in Australia to be sitting bata rain. So you're going to see us Add a lot more of these and we're getting the results out of them. So you know we won't do if we don't like him. But right now we really like these partnerships. >>Results are looking good. What's going on with >>you? All right. And I'll tell you why. That why they're different, where we are taking on riel public sector issues and challenges that are happening, they're not kind of pie in the sky. We might get there because those are good things to do. But what we want to do is let's tackle things that are really homelessness, opioid crisis, human sex trafficking, that we're seeing things that are really in these communities and those air kind of grand. But then we're taking on areas like farming where we talked about Can we get strawberries rotting on the vine out of the field into the market before you lose billions of dollars in California. So it's things like that that were so its challenges that are quick and riel. And the thing about Cloud is you can create an application and solution and test it out very rapidly without high cost of doing that. No technical Dan, >>you mentioned Smart Cities. I just attended a session. Marty Walsh, the mayor of Boston's, got this 50 50 years smart city plan, and it's pretty impressive, but it's a heavy lift. So what do you see going on in smart cities? And you really can't do it without the cloud, which was kind of my big input cloud. Where's the data? What do you say, >>cloud? I O. T is a big part at these. All the centers that Andy talked about yesterday in his keynote and why the five G partnerships are so important. These centers, they're gonna be everywhere, and you don't even know they really exist because they could be everywhere. And if you have the five G capabilities to move those communications really fast and crypt them so you have all the security you need. This is game changing, but I'll give you an example. I'll go back to the kids for a minute at at Arizona State University, they put Io TI centers everywhere. They no traffic patterns. Have any parking slots? Airfield What Utilities of water, if they're trash bins are being filled at number of seats that are being taken up in stadiums. So it's things like that that they're really working to understand. What are the dynamics of their city and traffic flow around that smart city? And then they're adding things on for the students like Alexis skills. Where's all the activity? So you're adding all things like Alexa Abs, which go into a smart city kind of dynamic. We're not shop. Where's the best activities for about books, for about clothes? What's the pizza on sale tonight? So on and then two things like you saw today on Singapore, where they're taking data from all different elements of agencies and presenting that bad to citizen from their child as example Day one of a birth even before, where's all the service is what I do? How do I track these things? How do I navigate my city? to get all those service is the same. One can find this guy things they're not. They're really and they're actually happening. >>Seems like they're instrumented a lot of the components of the city learning from that and then deciding. Okay, where do we double down on where do we place? >>You're making it Every resilient government, a resilient town. I mean, these were the things that citizens can really help take intro Web and have a voice in doing >>threes. I want to say congratulations to your success. I know it's not for the faint of heart in the public sector of these days, a lot of blockers, a lot of politics, a lot of government lockers and the old procurement system technical debt. I mean, Windows 95 is probably still in a bunch of PCs and 50 45 fighters. 15 fighters. Oh, you've got a great job. You've been doing a great job and riding that wave. So congratulations. >>Well, I'll just say it's worth it. It is worth it. We are committed to public sector, and we really want to see everyone from our war fighters. Are citizens have the capabilities they need. So >>you know, you know that we're very passionate this year about going in the 2020 for the Cube and our audience to do a lot more tech for good programming. This'll is something that's near and dear to your heart as well. You have a chance to shape technology. >>Yes, well, today you saw we had a really amazing not for profit on stage with It's called Game Changer. And what we found with not for profits is that technology can be a game changer if they use it because it makes their mission dollars damage further. And they're an amazing father. And send a team that started game changer at. Taylor was in the hospital five years with terminal cancer, and he and his father, through these five years, kind of looked around. Look at all these Children what they need and they started. He is actually still here with us today, and now he's a young adult taking care of other young Children with cancer, using gaming technologies with their partner, twitch and eight MPs and helping analyze and understand what these young affected Children with cancer need, both that personally and academically and the tools he has He's helping really permit office and get back and it's really hard, Warren says. I was happy. My partner, Mike Level, who is my Gran's commercial sales in business, and I ran public Sector Day. We're honored to give them at a small token of our gift from A to B s to help support their efforts. >>Congratulates, We appreciate you coming on the Cube sharing the update on good luck into 2020. Great to see you 10 years at AWS day one. Still, >>it's day one. I feel like I started >>it like still, like 10 o'clock in the morning or like still a day it wasn't like >>I still wake up every day with the jump in my staff and excited about what I'm gonna do. And so I am. You know, I am really excited that we're doing and like Andy and I say we're just scratching the surface. >>You're a fighter. You are charging We love you, Great executive. You're the chief of public. Get a great job. Great, too. Follow you and ride the wave with Amazon and cover. You guys were documenting history. >>Yeah, exactly. We're in happy holidays to you all and help seeing our seventh and 20 >>so much. Okay, Cube coverage here live in Las Vegas. This is the cube coverage. Extracting the signals. Wanna shout out to eight of us? An intel for putting on the two sets without sponsorship, we wouldn't be able to support the mission of the Cube. I want to thank them. And thank you for watching with more after this short break.

>> [Introduction Narrator] Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE, covering AWS Public Sector Summit brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit here in Washington D.C. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, John Furrier. We are welcoming to the program Shannon Kellogg. He is the V.P. Public Policy Americas at AWS. Thanks so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> Yes, I know. A CUBE veteran. >> Yeah, I feel like a CUBE alumni at this point. >> You are indeed, Shannon. >> Well, this is your show, I mean this is a policies front and center, here at AWS. You got Andy Jassy's Fireside Chat. >> Indeed. >> Kind of his first foray into revealing some of his political thoughts and his mission around what Amazon could do to change it. Pretty interesting time. >> Yeah, it was. I thought it was a really interesting Fireside Chat today with Andy and Teresa. You know, Andy talked about, of course, a lot of what's going on at AWS and some of the big picture challenges that our country faces, so it was great to hear him. >> Well, so that's what I want to get into right now, is that we are having this Summit with the backdrop of an emerging tech backlash, where not only are the regulators sharpening their focus on big tech, and a lot of political candidates saying they we want to break up these companies, the public becoming increasingly wary of big tech's power over us. Give us a little bit of a peek into your mindset and how AWS is thinking about all of these issues. >> Sure, well so I've been at Amazon for about seven years, and so I've seen the growth and evolution of the company firsthand. I've focused during that time frame mostly on working with our Amazon web services business, or AWS, which of course is all around us today. And you know we really, when I started working seven years ago here in Washington, D.C., a lot of people didn't even understand what cloud computing was. I remember one of my first conversations was going into a very senior policy maker on the Hill, and explaining to him what cloud was, and it was very hard to kind of understand during those days this transformation that had already begun if you're a policy maker. And there were a lot of questions back then around security and sort of how the cloud computing would fit within the security discussion. And there was even during that time frame a lot of national discussions around cyber security. And now that conversation has completely changed. More people know what cloud computing is, and now policy makers more and more are seeing cloud computing as part of the answer to help organizations and even governments strengthen their cyber security posture. And Andy talked a little bit about that today at the Fireside Chat. So the conversation has changed in areas like that, even though there are these broader, macro conversations going on as well. >> Well, Shannon, I want to get your thoughts, because you have a history in public policy and policy with tech, which is good. More than ever now, one of the things that we heard from Andy was the acceleration of change happening now. The ability to solve big problems now. New kinds of conversations and approaches are being invented to existing ways. So I got to ask you the question of how policy's modernizing with this modernization cloud trend and where it's remaining the same, so in some cases, the game is still the same, just kind of same wine, new bottle kind of thing, or is there areas that got to be changed. So, for instance, is there an approach that can still be evergreen today that's historically been working for government and private enterprises over the years, and where is it different where it needs to really change. >> Yeah. >> You've got to tease us and walk us through where that policy game is evolving to. >> Well when I started Amazon seven years ago, and started having conversations with customers and policy makers, like I was saying, there were still a lot of people even at the agency level who were experimenting very early on with cloud, and trying to figure out how they were going to use commercial cloud computing, right? And I would classify them as first movers. And so the conversation with them back then was really understanding what they were trying to do by moving a few applications to cloud. What kind of services they were trying to offer and new innovations that they were trying to offer. And so, the policy work that we did around that was much different than what we're doing today, because now you have so many organizations that are moving to cloud and you see this big push, not just in the U.S. but around the world toward IT modernization as an example. And if you're going to modernize your systems within government, then you actually ultimately have to do many different kinds of policy changes, unlike seven or eight years ago, right? And some of those include modernizing or updating your procurement policies and acquisition policies. Some of those include how you're budgeting and funding those initiatives, because there's a shift from capital expenditure into operational expenditure. Some of those policy conversations also involve updating your cyber security policies and your data protection policies. And so all of that is happening today, and we're seeing the federal government, Congress here wanting- >> Net new changes. Net new changes. >> Yeah, net new changes, and adapting, those policies and frameworks to how organizations are moving faster and faster to commercial cloud. >> Inside the policy beltway and even Silicon Valley, you've seen a lot of things that has worked and hasn't worked in the past. What do you think works for policy? If you look back histories, we've seen in the short history of technology and computer industries it's not that old, it's still young. We still have the internet, rise of the web, mobile computing, obviously spectrum and all these connectivity issues. What has worked that you think is relevant today that we should double down on and what should be taken away and reinvented? >> Well first of all, I think it's really important for, not just our company, and me as a leader at Amazon on public policy, but quite frankly, the entire industry, all of my peers, we all need to listen to what customers are trying to do to achieve their missions. And so when you think about whether it's NASA and the new initiatives that they have, to not only go back to the moon, but beyond to Mars, or you talk to health and human services or the Veterans Administration or some of our National Security agencies, they all have really, really important missions, so understanding what they are and how you can be supportive is very important. >> Well I mean, but there's all, I get that, that the customer's always right, listen to the customer, that's Andy's line, Amazon's line. But there's some potentially conflicting things, I'll just throw an example out there. Open government, open data creates more observability of data, hence more creativity, that's a theme that's getting a lot of traction in circles. And then customers want security and privacy. >> Right, so lots of unintended consequences to make all that. >> So as this new ground for a real, first-generational problem needs to be solved, you can't just pick one old way. Like you open it up, you're going to expose the data. >> Right. But I'm glad you mentioned open data, because it's actually one of the areas over the last few years that we've actually gotten some really important things done. There was federal legislation here in the U.S. that passed just, I think it was about 18 months ago, the first open data, comprehensive open data legislation. And we're seeing also other governments internationally kind of move in this direction as well. And I was part of those conversations, and other colleagues in my company were part of those conversations, took a lot of education. And took a lot of outreach to policy makers to get them to understand the benefits of open data and how technology could enable those benefits, which by the way, include getting more data sets so people can actually innovate on those data sets and build new businesses, which is a benefit and so- >> Keith Alexander's business, for instance, is all about visibility into threats, as one example. >> Right. But back to your question, what I found that was very helpful to policy makers is to give them a very baseline explanation of what open data was and how technology like cloud computing was enabling more access to that data or protections would need to be in place, but also how organizations and individuals and entrepreneurs were going to use that data, so having that conversation and educating. And I would say, John, that's sort of the new way of lobbying, the new conversations is to actually go in and try to understand, not only what's on a customer's mind, but what is on a policy maker's mind in terms of what do they really care about, and what are they trying to do to support whatever mission or to support whatever big initiative that matters to their district. >> So education is really the blocking and tackling tenet. You keep on pounding the education. Doing things in the open is interesting. You mentioned open data. We're in a world now in digital where everything's out in the open. You can't hide in the shadows. And so I wrote a story about Jedi, which through my sources, I essentially was referring to Oracle having this smear campaign against Amazon, which was supported by many sources. No one wanted to go on the record, so no other journalists reported it. But this is happening out in the open. These are old tactics of lobbying. >> They're old tactics, yeah. >> There's a sea change going on where open, turning the lights on, is more reality for policy lobbyists than ever before. Can you comment on your reaction to that? >> Sure. All anyone has to do, to look at some of the tactics that are being used by companies like Oracle, and we generally look at them as the legacy players, the legacy IT companies that are trying to protect their particular business model and their margins and the way that they're doing business, versus doing what I said earlier, which was listen to your customers, listen where they want to go, and try to align to that, right? Oracle is doing the exact opposite. It doesn't appear that they are listening to their customers at all. But putting Oracle aside as the only company doing this, there are other companies that are doing it as well, and if you look at the history of lobbying over the last 20 years, and you look at companies like Oracle or IBM, some of those players, they have done these kind of things previously, right? I mean, look at the original anti-trust case against Microsoft, or look at what Oracle was doing with Google and the EU on Fair Search. I mean, these are the same old tactics that these companies have used again and again and again, >> Beck and I were talking with the general Keith Alexander on this one point, where misinformation is so elevated now, and with machine learning and AI and openness, you can't do that anymore. There's no place to hide, so the transparency become a big part of processes. >> Right. >> Your reaction to how that's going to change, how policy is shaped, the participants and the actors involved, and potentially accelerated outcomes. Your thoughts on that. >> In terms of what the Department of Defense is trying to do, I think there's been a lot of transparency in that process, and there's been a lot of media coverage and light shown on what's going on there, so I don't probably need to go into those details. You know, I think it's really important for policy makers to always go out and get several perspectives. There are a lot of organizations out there that like policy makers and our general experience are trying to support the mission of these agencies that are trying to transform. And so if you looked at what the Department of Defense is trying to do or if you looked at what the intelligence community has already undergone several years of transformation with commercial cloud and emerging technologies, these are really important missions that policy makers want to support. >> John Furrier: And public policy- >> And you see that again and again and again. And other organizations. National Security think tanks, third party organizations and associations. They want to support that, too. So I would look to those voices versus listening to some of the same old tired IT legacy voices of the past. >> How do I know which entities are tainted or not tainted, because as someone who's not a big D.C. guy or tech guy, we got in through the cloud, and we're seeing all this stuff that's kind of, you see bad behavior and it's out in the open. Wow, I can't believe they're doing that. So the transparency is good, I get that, but how do I know- >> Transparency and learning from history. Look back and read about some of the tactics that have been used previously. I mean this is reported. >> So is there an organization out there that's like we're a think tank for the greater good of society. How do I know that they're not funded by someone? I mean, is there ways to detect- >> Various >> someone's reputation? Is there a working- >> Well there are organizations that are set up just to basically attack either other companies or another audience, and so those are generally known as astroturfing like organizations. >> I've seen those Google fair search, like they're really not a fair search, they're trying- >> And you can usually, if you look under the hood a little bit, you can usually figure out who those are. Not just those of us in the industry who have seen this playbook used again and again and again, by companies like Oracle and IBM, but also policy makers, if they just go out and talk to people they hear different perspectives, they're going to be able to figure out pretty quickly what is an astroturfing organization. Because they use the same old tactics that they've used for many years. >> I want to pick up on something that Andy Jassy was talking about during his Fireside Chat, and then he's talking about the culture of Amazon, which is the culture that tolerates failure, that allows people to go out and pursue these high-risk ideas which could be career-ending in other organizations. I want to hear what your thoughts are about the public sector, and I know the public sector is vast and not monolithic, but how would you describe the culture that you're seeing, the agencies you're working with, also the state and locals, the educational institutions, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, you bet. Well I think it's actually a really critical point in question, because we're seeing, at really every level of government that we work at, we're seeing people who are trying to be creative and innovate and offer new ways of services to citizens or to other constituencies that they serve, but we're also seeing cultural challenges, where you may have this particular group that is trying to come up with a new way to meet the mission, but then you have this other group over here, and they've always managed the data center, they've always been able to hug their box, their iron box, and see the blinking lights and get close to that, and it's hard sometimes for people who have done something for a certain amount of time in a certain way to necessarily embrace a new way of doing things. >> Rebecca Knight: Change is hard. >> For a couple of reasons. Change is hard, but also sometimes because of the, the fact is, if you look at really any level of government, there are always going to be IT failures, right? And there have been some doozies in the past, here at the federal level, as well as at the state and local level. And I would say consistently we've heard from government leaders who are trying to be first movers who are trying to be transformers, that sometimes they are tepid because of the failures of the past. And so then it gets them to step back and maybe go over to this group and do things the way they've always done them, versus take that risk. And what we need to do as citizens and as in our case, industry, and as a company like Amazon that is so customer-focused, we need to go out there and help them be creative, innovative, and have a voice. And that goes back to John's question about how policy has changed. That's the work I want to do. How do you help people who are really change agents who are trying to do the right thing for their constituents, do the right thing for their citizens, do the right thing for the National Security mission of the United States. Do the right thing for the war fighter who is out there executing the mission of the day. How do you help them achieve their goals and to be able to move forward and transform what they're doing. >> Well you got tail winds with the cloud, Andy pointed it out, we've been talking about it, but I think one thing that's key is, as you guys get the policy gurus together, as you lead the younger generation to shape these new territories, it's a - >> [ Shannon Kellogg] Thank you for calling me younger, John. >> Yeah, you're looking good, by the way. But you've been around the block, you've seen a few waves, and you've seen what works and what doesn't work, and when more than ever, younger majors are going to come in, whether they're from science, or different disciplines are going to be, you have to come and bring that interdisciplinary skill to really solve some of these world problems, I mean Andy's laid out a few. >> That's right. That's right. >> It's a critical... These are opportunities now that can be solved. >> Yeah, and by the way, that trend that you're pointing to is something that we're seeing not just domestically here in the U.S., but internationally. And we're seeing a lot of governments set up some kind of innovation units within government, so they bring in younger generation, but also entrepreneurs, folks that have been out in industry, creating and failing, and creating again and innovating, and bringing them in, and really trying to help them transform their missions. We're seeing that in so many different places now. >> Well, we're going to... you need to keep in touch, and check in on your progress and track the accountability of the industry. We've been really passionate about that, so thanks for sharing your vision and perspective. >> You bet. Thanks for having me on theCUBE again. It's really great to be back and to talk to you as always. >> Rebecca Knight: It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit. Stay tuned. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Bellevue, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering Smartsheet ENGAGE'18. Brought to you by Smartsheet. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Smartsheet ENGAGE 2018. I am Lisa Martin, sitting here in Bellevue, Washington with a couple of Smart Sheeters. Next to me is Ben Canning, the VP of Product Management. >> Hey Ben. >> Hey. >> And Ignacio Martinez, the VP of Security, Risk and Compliance. Guys, thank you so much for carving out time in a very packed event agenda to come and chat with us on theCUBE. >> Happy to be here. >> Happy to be here. >> So, this is a really interesting event, couple of things that really stood out to me, this morning in the key note, as I was telling you, we cover a lot of events here on theCUBE, of all sizes, and it was really interesting how your CEO Mark Mader, who was on the program earlier this morning, went out into the audience and talked about ENGAGED in action. I thought that was fantastic. And asked customers, randomly, three customers I think, how are you being empowered by Smartsheet? And how these customers were able to get up and articulately talk about the value that Smartsheet is delivering to their business. I thought that customer connection was really quite memorable. And then additionally, product management, when Jean Thoreau came out, and to a round of applause, a number of times, during announcements of the enhancements and features and what that really. >> Multi assign too. >> Yes, what that really, sort of, said to me, is you guys deliver software that is a facilitator of collaboration that is essential to drive businesses, digital transformation, et cetera, but you're collaborating with them because clearly they were very happy to hear about a number of these announcements today. >> Yeah we have very, very passionate customers and it's one of the great things about working here and working with these customers. We're super focused on what do those customers need and how do we enable them to get those things done. We don't typically get imposed from the top down by IT. You're using Smartsheet because you chose to use it. It's the thing that makes your life easier. And we never forget that and we never forget that we need to keep that close connection with our customers and I think you see it here, at the conference today. >> You do, you got 50 customers plus speaking in breakout sessions, which for an event that's got about 2000 people, it's huge percentage. >> Yeah. >> Some great announcements. Before we get into some of the risk and compliance stuff Ignacio, Ben walk us through maybe a high level of some of the key enhancements that were announced this morning. >> Well, so we talked about a lot of things today. I think we had over 23 total announcements. Things from the range of multiple, being able to sign multiple people in the grid, to Dynamic View, which we're incredibly excited about, that allows you to have custom views on a sheet and control who gets access to which view. Really opens up tremendous new possibilities for Smartsheet. Some of the things that I get super excited about, I work a lot in the platform and administrative space. We've announced a number of things this week that are all about helping IT administrators and system admins, manage Smartsheet much more effectively when it gets to large scale. And I'll highlight a couple of them. One is the directory integration capability that we've done. We hear a lot from our customers that managing individual Smartsheet users gets kind of hard once you get over a number and I want to be able to see all the people in my organization and be able to share with them and assign tasks with them, even if they're not yet Smartsheet users. So what we announced today was a way to integrate active directory with Smartsheet so that the company directory of all the users in the company is automatically synchronized into Smartsheet so that those users can be, you can assign things to them, you can @ mention them, they'll show up in the grid with their faces and all their departmental information. It makes it much easier to manage users inside your organization. So when 100 people join the team, they automatically show up in Smartsheet. When someone leaves the organization, they get de-provisioned. And it makes it much easier to collaborate with folks throughout your organization than it ever has been before. So we're really excited to announce that as a product for our enterprise customers, starting a little bit later this year. >> Excellent. You've got customers, I was reading, doing my prep for the show, over 75,000 customers in 190 countries, of all industries. >> Yes. And I imagine, some of the things that we've heard guys from your customers on the program today that they're really benefiting from are the visibility, the configurability of the technology, the ability to have accountability, to not only improve workforce productivity, but to be able to eliminate duplicate tasks, give project owners and initiative owners full visibility, whereas they did not have that full visibility before. Ignacio, another big announcement that came out today, was what you guys are doing in the federal space. So tell us a little bit about FedRAMP, what that is and how you are working with them. >> Sure so without boring you to death on FedRAMP, I'll give you a quick overview. FedRAMP is a requirement of the federal government. It's a program developed by the government to essentially certify or authorize cloud service providers like Smartsheet to be meeting a certain security level of compliance, to be deployed in the federal agency space. So the federal government, every agency, is required to abide by it. So they should be selecting providers that have gone through FedRAMP authorization. So it is essentially security compliance program that companies voluntarily put themselves through to enable themselves to do work in the federal space. And very happy to announce, this morning, that we were not only announcing our intent to develop a program and a product to enter the federal space, to have been selected by the FedRAMP program to go through what they call FedRAMP Connect. That's an accelerated process where the FedRAMP office selects cloud service providers that they feel, based on application, have a high level of demand in the federal agency space. So they select those providers and work very closely with us to go through that compliance exercise and get authorized to be FedRAMP authorized in the FedRAMP program. So the reason the government does that is they have a strong desire to get products like Smartsheet deployed quickly among the federal agencies, because those people, think of them as an enterprise, they want all those great features that Ben talked about that we bring to enterprises in the public sector, they want them in the government agency sector as well. So we are very pleased that we were selected to go through this program and get a product to the market place in the federal space to help them improve how they work as well. >> So this isn't an entry into federal, 'cause Smartsheet has great presence and traction in federal, NASA, the National Institutes of Health and Veterans Administration. I also saw from your website, you've got customers using Smartsheet in city governments and state governments but this FedRAMP Connect Program, you mentioned it as an accelerator, but I think I heard you say that this was from demand from users, so this is that validation coming from the best place it can, right? >> Yeah it's essentially demand in the federal market place. So we're going to go through on an accelerated basis and what that does, you're right, we are currently deployed in a large number of federal agencies, state and local government, but in those cases, we'll get deployed on a limited basis, because we don't have FedRAMP authorization and they will be careful about where we're deployed. Achieving FedRAMP authorizations gives those federal government agency CIOs and CISOs the ability to say, Smartsheet can be deployed agency wide because it's now authorized under the FedRAMP Program. >> So let's talk about that from a product, maybe innovation standpoint. One of the things that's very clear from today, is how collaborative Smartsheet is with its customers and how influential they are in product innovation. From a federal perspective, you mentioned, Ignacio, that a lot of times they have the same requirements as enterprises and other organizations in the private sector, but how are you guys working together? Are there tweaks and enhancements that you need to make to the technology as part of the FedRAMP Connect Program? >> Yeah for sure. So one of the, FedRAMP institutes a very strict regime of compliance, audit, security controls, onto the product. And it ensures that we're really operating at the highest level of rigor and delivering a service that is highly reliable, highly scalable, fully audited and secure. So that requires us to invest in all of those areas. And the nice thing about FedRAMP, for even the non-federal customers, is that we make those investments consistently across the service. So while FedRAMP is an isolated instance of Smartsheet, all of Smartsheet can take advantage of the practices and procedures. We don't want to have to do things two different ways for two different parts of the service, so we impose a lot of those same practices and procedures and hardening of the service, across the board. And so that helps us to meet our promise to our customers that are not federal customers, that we're delivering a true enterprise grade fully scaled and reliable solution that they can depend on. >> And the flip side is true. Everything that Ben's team is working on, as you said, the customers cheer when we announce something, it was on our roadmap because they wanted it. So our federal customers, they would want and desire the same things that Ben's team has been developing, automation, any of those tools, because they want to work efficiently and effectively and collaborate the same way all of the private sectors do. >> Exactly. >> Yeah that's right. I mean you saw that this morning, in the keynote, right, where we heard from the North Carolina Department of Transportation. This is a federal agency that's using the power of Smartsheet to build a solution in mere days, rather than having to outsource it or wait for a large scale IT spend and RFP and all of those things. We're empowering these agencies to build solutions. The people on the ground are able to put together a solution that is really saving people's lives. >> That, exactly, Hurricane Florence that just hit, that's a life and death situation. >> Yeah and it was breathtaking and sort of moment of pride to see how quickly they were able to put that together and that's the power of Smartsheet. So we're really excited to bring that to the rest of the federal government. We see a tremendous amount of desire from them for that. >> So Ignacio, in terms of the FedRAMP Connect Program, you mentioned it's going to allow an acceleration of this process. What would it normally take if you weren't part of this Connect Program? I'm just curious how much advantage you'll get but you'll be able to pass through to your federal and non-federal customers. >> Yeah so very good point, good question. The statistics you often see thrown around about companies, cloud service providers, that want to get a product into the FedRAMP authorization space, is they'll spend on average a couple years, two years, and a million plus dollars. So it's not a small task to get FedRAMP authorized. Being part of that FedRAMP Connect accelerated program, we're working with what's called the JAB, the Joint Advisory Board, so the top three CIOs of the FedRAMP Program, they work along side us if we're wiling to invest the time and the dollars to take our product through to do it on this accelerated basis. So it is literally a joint effort, hand in hand, working with the FedRAMP office, the auditors we use for it, and our people to demonstrate that we've got the enterprise great security and that we can meet the ongoing monitoring submissions that have to be done. >> So the cost avoidance of a million dollars from two years, what are you expecting? And if you can't share that, that's okay, I'm just curious, is it going to be six months, a year? >> Well if you look at the FedRAMP Connect Program, on average, it runs approximately six months. So it's back and forth. It's a three way collaboration between the cloud service provider, the FedRAMP office and the auditors, but that program, their goal is to get it into approximately a six month timeline. So we were announced last week, so I think we said, our goal is to work with them on that timeline and early in calendar year 2019, is the timeline end that we all have on our radar. >> That's like Back to the Future acceleration, no wonder you're excited about that. >> We are and we're going to try to go faster than that, if we can manage it on the product side, but we'll see how quickly it goes. >> Well that's one of the things, that not only is that validation from the users within the federal government that they want this. But Ben, as you were saying we're not developing things in isolation or certain features for this market and this market can't use it, this is all going to be accelerating, I imagine, what Smartsheet is innovating to deliver to all segments globally. >> Yeah I think that's right. We see an increasing need for manageability and security capabilities within the platform. And our customers are asking for this across the board. Great example, another feature we announced today, is what we call the event monitoring service. So enterprise IT wants to understand who is doing what on the system. They want to be able to impose business rules, make sure that highly confidential information isn't being shared inappropriately. So we've invested in a system that we announced today that basically keeps track of all events that happen within the system, anything that's shared, new documents that are created and so forth, and gives the IT administrator a way to track that feed and make business decisions on the basis of it. Integrating with other CASB Solutions to drive business rules. So for example, we have customers that are using this system today to keep track of all of the attachments that are being added into their environment. When they see an attachment being added, they're able to go and look at that attachment and make sure that if it's a highly confidential thing, and that it's shared with an inappropriate set of folks, then they can take business action automatically to manage that environment. And that's the kind of security and audit control that enterprises need in order to feel comfortable deploying Smartsheet at wide scale. So we're very excited to be able to offer that to those enterprise administrators and help them foster Smartsheet adoption in the company. >> So some of the things that we've talked about today are this is technology that was designed for the business user, I've used it. I think I read a quote from Mark Mader that may have been from the press release for the IPO a few months ago, that said, in the beginning in the early days, 12 years ago, there were critics that said, why are you guys building this on a spreadsheet construct, and his answer and Smartsheet's answer, at a very small company, at that time, was 500 million people are familiar with this, so building something for business users, lines of business, finance, IT, sales, for example, tools that I as a marketing person don't need to be an IT expert. I don't need to even know what an API is or what it stands for, right. But you're also now, as you were saying, some of the new enhancements to facilitate IT, so what's that, kind of, yin and yang with designing a tool that is for the average user and ensuring that the IT folks who weren't probably involved in the first place, are able to manage this successfully? >> Yeah well it's definitely a balance that we have to maintain. We can never lose sight of the fact that the end user is at the center of what we do. And that we have to design for solutions that end users can implement themselves and that's at the heart of what Smartsheet does. At the same time, we look at IT administrators as partners. We know that the users love what the product does. They're desperate for it. And in general, I find that IT administrators are not trying to get in the way of what their users want. They want to be the hero and they want to be able to say, yes. So part of my job is to make sure that I give them the tools to enable them to get to a yes. That I can show them that we are secure enough, reliable enough and scalable enough, that we meet their strategic enterprise needs, that we integrate with the other systems that they have so that they're not building an island that they're going to have to deal with and doesn't connect with the rest of their estate and that they've got the tools to manage at scale, so that I'm not asking them to go one by one adding a thousand users, that's just not nice and fair. So I think we keep the end user, the business user, at the center and we look at IT as a partner and we try to find ways to help them get to yes with the product. And I don't think those two things are really in conflict. >> It's interesting, dealing with CIOs of our customers, they'll tell you, it's very strange, and it goes back to what you said earlier, value. So CIOs are tasked with delivering the most value for their organization, doing more for less, efficiently. And that often means selection of tools that then they have to go and force into an organization and deal with users that might be less than happy. I've had CIOs tell me on the phone, I have people putting together petitions to make Smartsheet the tool that we use across the organization. And so he said, that makes my life easy. I just need to work with you guys to make sure you've got the security, you've got all the tools I need as a CIO to protect the enterprise, but I don't have to worry about user acceptance. That's unique spot and we love it when the CIOs say, this makes my life easier with everything we're doing with Smartsheet. >> Oh that's music to your ears. >> Yeah it totally is. I mean, I met with a tech CIO recently as part of our enlist, talking to him about, oh well are you going to come to ENGAGE? And oh well you know, we're busy and we don't have a thing, and I said, oh you know actually there's eight people from your company, business users that are attending. >> Nice. That are attending the conference on their own dime and you can see the light bulb go off in his eyes and he's like, okay if eight people from our business groups are paying their own money to go to a tech conference, that's something I need to be paying attention to. How can you help me get my arms wrapped around this and help our users so it's a nice position to be in. >> It absolutely is. Well congratulations on being in the FedRAMP Connect Program and we're excited to hear next year all the great things coming out of that. And Ben, Ignacio, thanks so much for stopping by. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's busier than ensuring with us what's going on from your perspectives. >> Thanks a lot, thanks for having us. >> We want to thank you for watching theCUBE. I'm Lisa Martin live from Smartsheet ENGAGED, 2018 in Bellevue, Washington. Stick around. I'll be right back with Jeff Frick and our next guest.

>> [Introduction Narrator] Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE, covering AWS Public Sector Summit brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Welcome back everyone, to theCUBE's live coverage of the AWS Public Sector Summit here in Washington D.C. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my co-host, John Furrier. We are welcoming to the program Shannon Kellogg. He is the V.P. Public Policy Americas at AWS. Thanks so much for coming on the show. >> Thanks for having me. It's great to be back on theCUBE. >> Yes, I know. A CUBE veteran. >> Yeah, I feel like a CUBE alumni at this point. >> You are indeed, Shannon. >> Well, this is your show, I mean this is a policies front and center, here at AWS. You got Andy Jassy's Fireside Chat. >> Indeed. >> Kind of his first foray into revealing some of his political thoughts and his mission around what Amazon could do to change it. Pretty interesting time. >> Yeah, it was. I thought it was a really interesting Fireside Chat today with Andy and Teresa. You know, Andy talked about, of course, a lot of what's going on at AWS and some of the big picture challenges that our country faces, so it was great to hear him. >> Well, so that's what I want to get into right now, is that we are having this Summit with the backdrop of an emerging tech backlash, where not only are the regulators sharpening their focus on big tech, and a lot of political candidates saying they we want to break up these companies, the public becoming increasingly wary of big tech's power over us. Give us a little bit of a peek into your mindset and how AWS is thinking about all of these issues. >> Sure, well so I've been at Amazon for about seven years, and so I've seen the growth and evolution of the company firsthand. I've focused during that time frame mostly on working with our Amazon web services business, or AWS, which of course is all around us today. And you know we really, when I started working seven years ago here in Washington, D.C., a lot of people didn't even understand what cloud computing was. I remember one of my first conversations was going into a very senior policy maker on the Hill, and explaining to him what cloud was, and it was very hard to kind of understand during those days this transformation that had already begun if you're a policy maker. And there were a lot of questions back then around security and sort of how the cloud computing would fit within the security discussion. And there was even during that time frame a lot of national discussions around cyber security. And now that conversation has completely changed. More people know what cloud computing is, and now policy makers more and more are seeing cloud computing as part of the answer to help organizations and even governments strengthen their cyber security posture. And Andy talked a little bit about that today at the Fireside Chat. So the conversation has changed in areas like that, even though there are these broader, macro conversations going on as well. >> Well, Shannon, I want to get your thoughts, because you have a history in public policy and policy with tech, which is good. More than ever now, one of the things that we heard from Andy was the acceleration of change happening now. The ability to solve big problems now. New kinds of conversations and approaches are being invented to existing ways. So I got to ask you the question of how policy's modernizing with this modernization cloud trend and where it's remaining the same, so in some cases, the game is still the same, just kind of same wine, new bottle kind of thing, or is there areas that got to be changed. So, for instance, is there an approach that can still be evergreen today that's historically been working for government and private enterprises over the years, and where is it different where it needs to really change. >> Yeah. >> You've got to tease us and walk us through where that policy game is evolving to. >> Well when I started Amazon seven years ago, and started having conversations with customers and policy makers, like I was saying, there were still a lot of people even at the agency level who were experimenting very early on with cloud, and trying to figure out how they were going to use commercial cloud computing, right? And I would classify them as first movers. And so the conversation with them back then was really understanding what they were trying to do by moving a few applications to cloud. What kind of services they were trying to offer and new innovations that they were trying to offer. And so, the policy work that we did around that was much different than what we're doing today, because now you have so many organizations that are moving to cloud and you see this big push, not just in the U.S. but around the world toward IT modernization as an example. And if you're going to modernize your systems within government, then you actually ultimately have to do many different kinds of policy changes, unlike seven or eight years ago, right? And some of those include modernizing or updating your procurement policies and acquisition policies. Some of those include how you're budgeting and funding those initiatives, because there's a shift from capital expenditure into operational expenditure. Some of those policy conversations also involve updating your cyber security policies and your data protection policies. And so all of that is happening today, and we're seeing the federal government, Congress here wanting- >> Net new changes. Net new changes. >> Yeah, net new changes, and adapting, those policies and frameworks to how organizations are moving faster and faster to commercial cloud. >> Inside the policy beltway and even Silicon Valley, you've seen a lot of things that has worked and hasn't worked in the past. What do you think works for policy? If you look back histories, we've seen in the short history of technology and computer industries it's not that old, it's still young. We still have the internet, rise of the web, mobile computing, obviously spectrum and all these connectivity issues. What has worked that you think is relevant today that we should double down on and what should be taken away and reinvented? >> Well first of all, I think it's really important for, not just our company, and me as a leader at Amazon on public policy, but quite frankly, the entire industry, all of my peers, we all need to listen to what customers are trying to do to achieve their missions. And so when you think about whether it's NASA and the new initiatives that they have, to not only go back to the moon, but beyond to Mars, or you talk to health and human services or the Veterans Administration or some of our National Security agencies, they all have really, really important missions, so understanding what they are and how you can be supportive is very important. >> Well I mean, but there's all, I get that, that the customer's always right, listen to the customer, that's Andy's line, Amazon's line. But there's some potentially conflicting things, I'll just throw an example out there. Open government, open data creates more observability of data, hence more creativity, that's a theme that's getting a lot of traction in circles. And then customers want security and privacy. >> Right, so lots of unintended consequences to make all that. >> So as this new ground for a real, first-generational problem needs to be solved, you can't just pick one old way. Like you open it up, you're going to expose the data. >> Right. But I'm glad you mentioned open data, because it's actually one of the areas over the last few years that we've actually gotten some really important things done. There was federal legislation here in the U.S. that passed just, I think it was about 18 months ago, the first open data, comprehensive open data legislation. And we're seeing also other governments internationally kind of move in this direction as well. And I was part of those conversations, and other colleagues in my company were part of those conversations, took a lot of education. And took a lot of outreach to policy makers to get them to understand the benefits of open data and how technology could enable those benefits, which by the way, include getting more data sets so people can actually innovate on those data sets and build new businesses, which is a benefit and so- >> Keith Alexander's business, for instance, is all about visibility into threats, as one example. >> Right. But back to your question, what I found that was very helpful to policy makers is to give them a very baseline explanation of what open data was and how technology like cloud computing was enabling more access to that data or protections would need to be in place, but also how organizations and individuals and entrepreneurs were going to use that data, so having that conversation and educating. And I would say, John, that's sort of the new way of lobbying, the new conversations is to actually go in and try to understand, not only what's on a customer's mind, but what is on a policy maker's mind in terms of what do they really care about, and what are they trying to do to support whatever mission or to support whatever big initiative that matters to their district. >> So education is really the blocking and tackling tenet. You keep on pounding the education. Doing things in the open is interesting. You mentioned open data. We're in a world now in digital where everything's out in the open. You can't hide in the shadows. And so I wrote a story about Jedi, which through my sources, I essentially was referring to Oracle having this smear campaign against Amazon, which was supported by many sources. No one wanted to go on the record, so no other journalists reported it. But this is happening out in the open. These are old tactics of lobbying. >> They're old tactics, yeah. >> There's a sea change going on where open, turning the lights on, is more reality for policy lobbyists than ever before. Can you comment on your reaction to that? >> Sure. All anyone has to do, to look at some of the tactics that are being used by companies like Oracle, and we generally look at them as the legacy players, the legacy IT companies that are trying to protect their particular business model and their margins and the way that they're doing business, versus doing what I said earlier, which was listen to your customers, listen where they want to go, and try to align to that, right? Oracle is doing the exact opposite. It doesn't appear that they are listening to their customers at all. But putting Oracle aside as the only company doing this, there are other companies that are doing it as well, and if you look at the history of lobbying over the last 20 years, and you look at companies like Oracle or IBM, some of those players, they have done these kind of things previously, right? I mean, look at the original anti-trust case against Microsoft, or look at what Oracle was doing with Google and the EU on Fair Search. I mean, these are the same old tactics that these companies have used again and again and again, >> Beck and I were talking with the general Keith Alexander on this one point, where misinformation is so elevated now, and with machine learning and AI and openness, you can't do that anymore. There's no place to hide, so the transparency become a big part of processes. >> Right. >> Your reaction to how that's going to change, how policy is shaped, the participants and the actors involved, and potentially accelerated outcomes. Your thoughts on that. >> In terms of what the Department of Defense is trying to do, I think there's been a lot of transparency in that process, and there's been a lot of media coverage and light shown on what's going on there, so I don't probably need to go into those details. You know, I think it's really important for policy makers to always go out and get several perspectives. There are a lot of organizations out there that like policy makers and our general experience are trying to support the mission of these agencies that are trying to transform. And so if you looked at what the Department of Defense is trying to do or if you looked at what the intelligence community has already undergone several years of transformation with commercial cloud and emerging technologies, these are really important missions that policy makers want to support. >> And public policy- >> And you see that again and again and again. And other organizations. National Security think tanks, third party organizations and associations. They want to support that, too. So I would look to those voices versus listening to some of the same old tired IT legacy voices of the past. >> How do I know which entities are tainted or not tainted, because as someone who's not a big D.C. guy or tech guy, we got in through the cloud, and we're seeing all this stuff that's kind of, you see bad behavior and it's out in the open. Wow, I can't believe they're doing that. So the transparency is good, I get that, but how do I know- >> Transparency and learning from history. Look back and read about some of the tactics that have been used previously. I mean this is reported. >> So is there an organization out there that's like we're a think tank for the greater good of society. How do I know that they're not funded by someone? I mean, is there ways to detect- >> Various >> someone's reputation? Is there a working- >> Well there are organizations that are set up just to basically attack either other companies or another audience, and so those are generally known as astroturfing like organizations. >> I've seen those Google fair search, like they're really not a fair search, they're trying- >> And you can usually, if you look under the hood a little bit, you can usually figure out who those are. Not just those of us in the industry who have seen this playbook used again and again and again, by companies like Oracle and IBM, but also policy makers, if they just go out and talk to people they hear different perspectives, they're going to be able to figure out pretty quickly what is an astroturfing organization. Because they use the same old tactics that they've used for many years. >> I want to pick up on something that Andy Jassy was talking about during his Fireside Chat, and then he's talking about the culture of Amazon, which is the culture that tolerates failure, that allows people to go out and pursue these high-risk ideas which could be career-ending in other organizations. I want to hear what your thoughts are about the public sector, and I know the public sector is vast and not monolithic, but how would you describe the culture that you're seeing, the agencies you're working with, also the state and locals, the educational institutions, what are you seeing? >> Yeah, you bet. Well I think it's actually a really critical point in question, because we're seeing, at really every level of government that we work at, we're seeing people who are trying to be creative and innovate and offer new ways of services to citizens or to other constituencies that they serve, but we're also seeing cultural challenges, where you may have this particular group that is trying to come up with a new way to meet the mission, but then you have this other group over here, and they've always managed the data center, they've always been able to hug their box, their iron box, and see the blinking lights and get close to that, and it's hard sometimes for people who have done something for a certain amount of time in a certain way to necessarily embrace a new way of doing things. >> Change is hard. >> For a couple of reasons. Change is hard, but also sometimes because of the, the fact is, if you look at really any level of government, there are always going to be IT failures, right? And there have been some doozies in the past, here at the federal level, as well as at the state and local level. And I would say consistently we've heard from government leaders who are trying to be first movers who are trying to be transformers, that sometimes they are tepid because of the failures of the past. And so then it gets them to step back and maybe go over to this group and do things the way they've always done them, versus take that risk. And what we need to do as citizens and as in our case, industry, and as a company like Amazon that is so customer-focused, we need to go out there and help them be creative, innovative, and have a voice. And that goes back to John's question about how policy has changed. That's the work I want to do. How do you help people who are really change agents who are trying to do the right thing for their constituents, do the right thing for their citizens, do the right thing for the National Security mission of the United States. Do the right thing for the war fighter who is out there executing the mission of the day. How do you help them achieve their goals and to be able to move forward and transform what they're doing. >> Well you got tail winds with the cloud, Andy pointed it out, we've been talking about it, but I think one thing that's key is, as you guys get the policy gurus together, as you lead the younger generation to shape these new territories, it's a - >> [ Shannon Kellogg] Thank you for calling me younger, John. >> Yeah, you're looking good, by the way. But you've been around the block, you've seen a few waves, and you've seen what works and what doesn't work, and when more than ever, younger majors are going to come in, whether they're from science, or different disciplines are going to be, you have to come and bring that interdisciplinary skill to really solve some of these world problems, I mean Andy's laid out a few. >> That's right. That's right. >> It's a critical... These are opportunities now that can be solved. >> Yeah, and by the way, that trend that you're pointing to is something that we're seeing not just domestically here in the U.S., but internationally. And we're seeing a lot of governments set up some kind of innovation units within government, so they bring in younger generation, but also entrepreneurs, folks that have been out in industry, creating and failing, and creating again and innovating, and bringing them in, and really trying to help them transform their missions. We're seeing that in so many different places now. >> Well, we're going to... you need to keep in touch, and check in on your progress and track the accountability of the industry. We've been really passionate about that, so thanks for sharing your vision and perspective. >> You bet. Thanks for having me on theCUBE again. It's really great to be back and to talk to you as always. >> It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. 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