>>Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's the cube covering new Tanex. Dot. Next 2019 brought to you by Nutanix. >>Welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of Nutanix dot. Next we are here in Copenhagen. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, co-hosting alongside Stu Miniman. We are joined by Dhiraj Penn day. He is the CEO and founder of Nutanix. Thank you so much for returning to our program. You are a Cuba. Thank you. So I want to talk to you about what we're here to do is celebrate 10 years of Nutanix. Ben Gibson, when he was up there on the main stage, he's the head of marketing. He was talking about watching you backstage, saying that I saw in him a lot of pride and emotion because this is really your baby. You started 10 years ago. There's been a lot of nostalgia, uh, bringing up some of your first employees. There's even a picture of you poised with a ping pong ball ready to play a little beer pong back in the early days. So talk a little bit about what this means to you to be here 10 years after you founded this couple. >>Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for the opportunity to come here. Um, err, it looks like an era, 10 years as an error. We've built a family of customers and employees and partners and uh, yet it feels like a, we haven't achieved a thing. So, you know, to me the more I make it look like it's 2010 back again, you can go back to being like a startup again and you know, growing from here because you know, growth is a very relative term. You know, it's a, it's a mindset thing and um, I think the new day and age of multicloud and what we have to do to virtualize all these different silos that have been merged and to virtualize, simplify and integrate, you know, virtualize, simplify, integrate clouds is going to be a journey of a lifetime actually. >>Yeah. Deer Ridge. I think back to some of our earliest discussions, uh, you know, you would bring us in and talking about, you know, the, the, the challenge of our era is building software for the distributed architecture that we need. And that was as relevant in 2010 or 2012 as it is here in 2019. Um, HCI helps simplify that deployment of virtualization. We are definitely a point that we need to simplify. Cloud. Cloud is here, it's growing. The hybrid pieces are there. So maybe prednisone side, you know, kind of what's the same about the journey and some of it is, you know, making one click upgrades in today's environment is way more complex, uh, than, than it would have been back when it was just a, you know, an appliance. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think talking >>about the whole concept of hyperconvergence initially started out as converging compute with storage. How do you keep them close together? Because, uh, machines need a locality, you know, applications need a local data because the network is the real enemy. And uh, the same was true of human performance. You know, like lots of teams, lots bureaucracy, very little autonomy. So when you brought data close to applications, application, people became autonomous, you know, they could do things on their own and that was the power of hyperconvergence. You know, you're able to provide performance to data and machines and you're able to provide performance to people because they became autonomous. I think that is not changing even in the hyperscaler data center environment and anything, the fact that you have to hop multiple switches to get to data. Uh, I think it's recreating the same problems that we started out this company with, you know, almost 10 years ago. >>In fact, if anything, the hyperscaler networks are worse than the networks that private clouds actually had or even on prem data centers had. So keeping data close to applications is, is relevant and it's fashionable one more time. And the fact that you can provide that autonomy to application folks to go launch their apps in the public cloud through this new architecture, using the bare metal service offerings to the public cloud where the bare metal offerings look like HP server or Dell server to us, I think recreates the same. So I think I'm a big proponent of the saying that says the more things change, the more they remain the same. And they actually look very much the same as 10 years ago. >>So how do you think that you describing the technolog technology, technological changes that have taken place, but really we're sort of back to where we started from, but how would you describe the ways, the differences in the ways that people work together, talking about the human beings who are actually using this technology? >>Well, uh, for one, uh, this notion of uh, converging teams and people is similar to the notion of converging, uh, machines, you know, hardware to pure software. I think, you know, what ever happened in our personal lives with the iPhone and the Android, uh, O S it's exactly what hyperconvergence data is. You know, we had all these gadgets and they were special special purpose, single purpose gadgets and we made them as apps and they were all together in this one, uh, sort of device. And then the device connected to cloud services. I think that's what happened in the enterprise computing as well. You know, compute, storage, networking, security, everything coming together as pure software is running the apps. And I think that has created the notion of generalists in it as well. Because as it matures, you can't have so many specialists. And just like in healthcare, you know, you can't have so many uh, specialist doctors when you need like a ton of primary care physicians and generalist practitioners and that's what it is going through as well. >>And so that's changing the skills that are in demand too from employers because you are looking for people who are sort of a mile wide and inch deep. >>Yeah. And in fact a, the inch deep is actually not a pejorative. I would say that it's a good thing because with automation and a lot of layering of software, you don't need to get deeper into the details. The weeds, especially if infrastructure computing goes, you know, what's our, is to really elevate it to go figure out things that really matter to the business, you know, which is applications and services as opposed to going and stitching together stuff that really can be done with pure software and a standardization. I know the level of standardization that operating models can bring with a commodity servers and fewer software select people go and do things that really are more relevant in this age actually. Yup. >>I was wondering if he did the close of the keynote, there was discussion of the tech preview of XY clusters. You and I've spoken a little bit off camera, uh, about this, but there is a lot of interest out there. You know, everything when you know, uh, Azure first announced Azure stack, it got everyone excited. Uh, to be honest, Rebecca and I were at the Microsoft, uh, one of the Microsoft shows last year and most of the attendees, we're really talking about it. So it's that kind of the buzz versus the reality of what customers are actually using. Where do you see, where are we with kind of that, that hybrid discussion and you know, why is Nutanix taking a slightly different approach, uh, than, than some of the others out there? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, this a hybrid cloud is another word for hyperconverged clouds and whatever HCI was in 2010 is what hybrid is today. So imagine 10 years from 2010 we're still talking about HCI, especially in the large enterprise as they won't barely begun to say look, private cloud equals at CA. I think that's been a sort of an epiphany moment for most of the CEOs of the global 2000 companies just in the last three years. You've been talking about it for 10 years now. So there's a bell curve of technology adoption. We are in the very early stages of what hyperconverged clouds will mean or what hybrid cloud should mean. I think doing it right is important because the market is large, you know, the ability to really move, uh, applications and infrastructure. I call them apps now, you know, the hypervisor is now in half because it can run in the Amazon platform, it can run in the Azure platform and that platform that they provided, billing identity, you know, recommendations and things of that nature. >>So on top of that, back from how do you go and in a put your app in the catalog, I think that's the overall, uh, sort of metaphor that I use. So in that sense, I don't look at the platform as a zero sum game for us. We just have to look at it as a platform where our apps can actually go and run. how does a company, you've grown quite a bit, but if you look at the overall market, you're still a small player compared to a Microsoft or Cisco or a Google out there. So we definitely think you have that opportunity to help simplify that, that cloud hyperconverged cloud experience as you said. Um, but uh, you know, how, how does the Nutanix, uh, get there? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, um, and I say this to people who followed virtualization, the history of virtualization. >>Uh, when VMware was building virtualization, silver market was $55 billion. Storage was 30 billion, networking was 25 billion and not $110 billion market. When they meant to $4 billion, they just had to think about what does it mean to put a layer of software on top of all this stuff so people can drag and drop experience from one server to another from one storage array to another and so on. So there's enough value to add on top of that 110 billion with your own 4 billion in 2012 there are $4 billion company. Actually not right now. We're thinking about, okay, these things are the new platform. Where is the value in going and virtualizing simplifying and integrating the mall with a layer of software that becomes the new integration software for all things multi cloud. Yeah. So it's interesting when I connect the dots with that to Nutanix is going to be going through its own transformation and you've talked publicly a lot about, you know, you sit on the board of Adobe that moved from software scripted is challenging. >>What I want to understand is what does that end result of these subscription model? What does that mean for your customers and how they can, you know, change that relationship. Okay. I talked about this in my keynote as well. The why of subscription. I think the very fact that we've decoupled the entitlement, uh, from hardware was the first change for us. You know, the fact that software can live anywhere. And on top of that, what subscription delivers is this notion of residual value where you can say, look, if I have unused products and unused, uh, terms on, on some of these products, can I use them for other things? Actually. So it provides a very agile procurement framework that is very new to the world of infrastructure actually. And yet we've had a ton of shelfware in infrastructure in general and a on-prem software in general, even in the public cloud that a lot of shelfware do. I think the ability to really go and repurpose stuff for new things that you want to buy provides a lot of optionality to our customers. You know, subscription also is about bite sizing thing so you don't have to buy big things, you know, and delivering it in real time. So I think, uh, you will see more and more of a consumption model change towards subscription in the coming years. >>It talking about the value of Nutanix in this multi-cloud world and you're, and you're talking about how customers really want that optionality. We're here in Copenhagen. How would you say the U S customers are different from the European customers in terms of what they're looking for or are they different? You >>know, uh, they're very similar because there's ton of global companies out there who have local offices and such in the global 2000 has tentacles everywhere. Uh, I think in some ways where they do differ is when it comes to the partner community and the channel and the system integrators, they're actually more influential here in Europe and Asia Pacific than in the U S because most of the talent in the U S goes and works for companies like us. And, uh, most of the talent in Europe, in Asia Pacific, they work for the channel and the system integrators. So how we actually work with them and learn from them and educate them on the, on the transformation I think is basically the only thing that's different. All right. Steerage, uh, w one of the feedback I got from customers is something that I hear at the Amazon show. I'm inundated with so much new stuff, you know, I can't keep up with it. >>Um, what might you explain a little bit kind of the portfolio and also if you can just organizationally how you think of this. You know, when we hear, you know, Amazon does their two pizza teams and they scale is very different from a traditional software infrastructure companies. So it's a great, uh, a point in, one of my favorite sort of things to think about these days is how do you not sell things that sell an experience. It's very, very important to differentiate the two because you know, you can build a ton of things. And then the question is if you've left the integration as an exercise to the reader or to the customer and you're basically telling them, look, you can as well buy best of breed from other companies in integrated on your own. So the job of integration and to really sell an experiences has to be left, shifted to companies like us. >>And that's what we've been doing with our products. You know, we are really bringing them together. When you say all together now it's also about our products actually it's the portfolio around data, making sure that we are really bringing them all together. They can leverage each other. One sits on top of the other one tiers to the other. They can share common policy policy engines and things like that. I mean what we're doing with security for example, is bringing multicloud with the old world of micro segmentation. Actually, you know, there's a lot of integration that's going on yet we want to provide each of these GMs autonomy because you know, at some level, uh, they are all looking for individual use cases and workflows and they're looking for mastery, which is like how do I master, uh, what I do well with my customers, but in the purpose has to be more than their own actually know. >>And like you think about autonomy, mastery, purpose, you know, one of Dan Pink's philosophies of motivation are general managers. They're motivated if you give them amp, you know, autonomy, mastery and purpose. But at the end of the day, the purpose is customer driven. It's not driven by products is driven by customers. It's during my customer's experience rather than the general managers, things they're actually building to the customers. Just one followup. When I think about, you know, one of the challenges I hear inside customers and I thought we'd made more progress is still a lot of silos. I talked to customers that are like, well, you know, I, I've deployed Nutanix and I love it, but there's this group over here and they're doing something different and they're certified or they're starting to use it, or Oh my God, this developer team spun something up and didn't pay any attention. So, you know, it was supposed to get everything back under control and, and manage it and work with the business. >>But, you know, I feel like the customers haven't made a lot of progress on that journey in the last 10 years. What's your feedback from customers? It's very true. Look, I think, uh, what you just said is also about autonomy for the developers and autonomy for that other team and such. So you can't force fit everything into single size. You know, this one size fits all kind of a philosophy. That's where there's a bell curve of adoption in any technology. I mean, even today, if you think of the hyperscalers, you know, you might think that they have it all. They have 2% of the market, you know, and that's how big this market really is. So I think going back to understanding that each of these groups actually has skill sets that are different. They're used to doing things a certain way and unless you go and weave it with them, you know what I tell people is you want to walk to where the customer is before you walk with them to where you want them to be actually. >>So walking to where the customer is not going to the private cloud. You know, we could easily have said, look, let's banish all this. Let's build everything as an off prem cloud service 10 years ago. But he said, the market is not there yet. Similarly, we said we got to build appliances because right now the white box market is not there yet for the enterprise. Then when we came out of it, we said, look, the market is already there. Let's walk with them with pure software now subscription. We did the same with the underlying marginalization software below Nutanix. We said, let's walk the world where the customers, let's run on top of VMware if that's what it takes, and then walk with them to where we want them to be, which is an invisible hypervisor and such. So I think we've got to keep doing this. You know, where, let's remove the hubris from a innovation in Silicon Valley and a lot of hubris about these things that we know it all. I think when you try to go and understand and have the entity for the customer is when magical things happening. >>That's a fantastic note to end on a dear AJ, thank you so much for coming back on the cube. It's always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more from Nutanix dot. Next.

Live from San Juan, Puerto Rico. It's the Cube. Covering Blockchain Unbound. Brought to you by, Blockchain Industries. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's exclusive coverage in Puerto Rico. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of the Cube, co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. In Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound, this is a global conference. Going to the next level in industry migration up and growth, and blockchain, decentralized internet and obviously cryptocurrency, changing the world up and down the stack. I have an industry veteran here. My next guest Salim is founding CEO, Singularity University and author of the best-selling book, Exponential Organizations. He's seen many waves, friend, known him for years. Haven't seen you in a while, you look great. You haven't changed. >> (laughs) The hair has changed a lot. >> (laughs) I've still got mine. Hey great to see you. Bumping into you in Puerto Rico is really compelling because you have a nose for the future, and I've always respected that about you. You have the ability to understand at the root level what's going on but also pull back and see the big picture. Puerto Rico is the center of all the action because the killer wrap in this is money. So money is driving a lot of change, but there's some fundamental infrastructure, stack upgrades going on. Blockchain has been highly discussed, crypto is highly hyped, ICO's are-- Scammers out there but now some legits. What's your take? What's your view right now on the current situation? >> Well I think what's happening with a place like Puerto Rico is. When you get kind of wiped out of the old, you have the chance to leap-frog. When you think about any of our traditional environments, laying down Blockchain technologies, et cetera. It's really, really hard because you have to get the Supreme Court, the Constitution to approve blockchain based land titles, and then you build a stack there from a legal perspective. Here they can basically start from scratch and do it completely from the ground up. Which is what's exciting for everybody here. >> The top story that we've been reporting here is that Puerto Rico is rebooting. The hurricane obviously, I won't say a forcing function, but in general when you get wiped out, that is certainly an opportunity to rebuild. If there's any kind of silver lining in that. >> There's a long history of that. Japan got wiped out during World War II, so did Germany and they rebounded incredibly. We've seen that recently with Rwanda. We do a lot of work in Medillin, in Colombia, and that's just been one of the worst cities in the world, is now the most innovative city in the world. So this is the transition that we've seen a pattern for. >> One of the things I'm really excited about decentralization and blockchain is all the conversations have the same pattern. Efficiency is getting wired into things. So if you see slack in the system or inefficiencies, entrepreneurs are feeling the void. The entrepreneurial eye of the tiger goes that to that opportunity to reset, reduce steps, save time and make things easier. Classic value proposition in these new markets. You run a great university but also author of Exponential Organizations. A lot of people are scared, they're like, "Whoa, hold on. Slow down, this is bullshit, "we're not going to prove it." And then the other half saying, "No this is the future." So you have two competing forces colliding. You have the new guard saying, "We got to do this, this is the future." Old guard saying, "Blocks, Road blocks, blockers" You covered this in your book in a way, so how do you win, who wins? How do you create a win win? >> You can create a win win. What you have to do is leap-frog to the newest, fast as possible. The only question is, how can you get to the new? And the problem that you have is, as you rightly pointed out is. When you try disruptive innovation in any large organization or institution, the immune system attacks. I saw this at Yahoo running Brickhouse. Yahoo is supposedly a super advanced organization, and yet the minute you try to do something really radical, you spend all your time fighting the mother ship. So I've been focusing a lot of time the last few years focused on that particular problem, and we're pretty excited, we believe we've cracked it. >> How does someone crack that code? If I'm Puerto Rico, obviously the government officials are here at Blockchain Unbound. This is not just a tech conference. It's like a tech conference, investor conference, kind of world economic form rolled into one. >> Sure >> There's some serious players here. What's your advice to them? >> So what we do, and let me describe what we do in the private sector and what we do in the public sector. A couple of years ago, the global CI of Procter & Gamble came to me and said, "Hey, we'd like to work with you." And what we typically see is, some executive from a big company will come to Singularity. They'll go back headquarters with their hair on fire going, "Oh my god!" If they're from BMW for example. They go back going, "Drones, autonomous cars, hyperloop, VR." Back in Munich, they'll be given a white coat and some medicine and be put in a corner. "You're too crazy, now stand over there." And that's the tension that you are talking about. And then somebody else will come six months later then they'll do the Silicon Valley tour, then they'll have one of our people go over there, and it takes about three years for the big company to get up to speed, just the C-Suite to get up to speed. Forget transmitting that down. So I was talking to Linda Clement-Holmes and I said, "Look we're about to start this three year dance "I've been thinking about this, "let's shrink it to 10 weeks." So we designed what we now call an ExO Sprint. Which is how you get a leadership, culture and management thinking of a legacy organization, three years ahead in a 10 week process. And the way we do it is, we're in an opening workshop, that's really shock and awe. Freaks out all the incumbent management. And then young leaders and future lieutenants of the business do the thinking of what should come next. And they report back. Some thing about that opening workshop suppresses the immune system, and when the new ideas arrive they don't attack them in the same way. >> It's like a transplant if you will. >> It's like when you do a kidney transplant. You suppress the immune system, right? It's that same idea. So we've now run that like a dozen times. We just finished TD Ameritrade, HP, Visa, Black & Decker, et cetera. We're open-sourcing it. We're writing a manual on how to do it so that anybody can self-provision that process and run it. Because, every one of the Global 5000 has to go through that process with or without us. So then we said, "Okay, could we apply it to the public sector?" Where the existing policy is the immune system. You try and update transportation and you're fighting the taxis. Or education and you're fighting the teacher's unions. We have a 16 week process that we run in cities. We do it through a non-profit called the Fastrack Institute based out of Miami. We've run it four times in Medillin, in Colombia and we just finished four months with the mayor of Miami on the future of transportation. We're talking to the officials here about running a similar process here in Puerto Rico. >> Are they serious about that? Because they throw money at projects, it kind of sits on the vine, dies on the vine. Because there is an accelerated movement right now. I mean, exponential change is here. I'll give you an example. We're seeing and reporting that this digital nation trend is on fire. Suddenly everyone wants digital cities, IoT is out there. But now what cryptocurrency, the money being the killer app. It's flowing everywhere, out of Colombia, out of everywhere. Every country is moving money around with crypto it's easier, faster. So everyone is trying to be the crypto, ICO city. Saw it on Telegram today, France wants to be, Paris wants to be the ICO city. Puerto Rico, Bahrain, Armenia, Estonia. U.K. just signed a deal with Coinbase. What the hell is going on? How do you rationalize this and what do you see as a future of state here? >> Well I think, couple of thoughts. And you're hitting into some of the things I've been thinking about a lot recently. Number one is, that when you have a regulatory blockage, it's a huge economic developing opportunity for anybody that can leap-frog it. Nevada authorized autonomous cars early and now a lot of testing is done there. So the cities that have appreciated-- >> So you're saying regulatory is an opportunity to have a competitive advantage? >> Huge, because look at Zug in Switzerland. Nobody had ever heard of the place. You pass through there on the way to Zermatt. But now it's like a destination that everybody needs to get to because they were earlier. This is the traditional advantage of places like Hong Kong or Dubai or whatever. They're open and they're hungry. So we're going to see a lot of that going on. I think there's a bigger trend though, which is that we're seeing more and more action happen at the city level and very, very little happen at the national or global level. The world is moving too fast today for a big country to keep up. It's all going to happen this next century at the city level. >> Or smaller countries. >> Or small countries. >> So what's going on here at Blockchain Unbound for you? Why are you here? What are you doing? What's your story? >> I have this kind of sprint that we run in the private sector and in the public sector and then a community of about 200 consultants. And I have to pay 200 people in 40 countries and it's and unholy mess. Withholding taxes and concerns around money transfer costs-- >> It's a hassle. >> It's a nightmare. And so I've been thinking about an internal cryptocurrency just to pay our network. All of a sudden now, three or four countries have said, "Hey we want to buy that thing, "to have access to your network." So I've got all this demand over here, and I need to figure out how to design this thing properly. So I've been working with some of the folks like Brock and DNA and others to help think through it. But what I'm really excited about here is that, there's a-- You know what I love is the spectrum of dress. You got the radical, Burning Man, hippie guy, all the way to a three-piece suit. And that diversity is very, very rich and really, real creativity comes from it. This feels like the web in '96, '95. It's just starting, people know there's something really magical. They don't quite know what to do. >> Well what I'm impressed about is that there's no real bad vibe from either sets of groups. There's definitely some posturing, I've noticed some things. Obviously I'm wearing a jacket, so those guys aren't giving me hugs like they're giving Brock a hug. I get that, but the thing is, the coexistence is impressive. I'm not seeing any real mud-slinging, again I didn't like how Brock got handled with John Oliver. I thought that was unacceptable because he's done a lot of good work. I don't know him personally, I've never met him, but I like what he's doing, I like his message. His keynote here, at d10e, was awesome. Really the right messaging, I thought. That's something that I want to get behind and I think everyone should. But he just got trashed. Outside of that, welcoming culture. And they're like, "Hey if you don't like it, "just go somewhere else." They're not giving people a lot of shit for what they do. It's really accepting on all sides. >> Here's my take on the whole decentralization thing. We run the world today on a series of very top down hierarchical structures. The corporation, the military industrial complex, Judeo-Christian religions, et cetera. That are very hierarchical-- Designed for managing scarcity, right? We're moving the world very, very quickly to abundance. We now have an abundance of information, we'll soon have an abundance of energy, we'll soon have an abundance of money, et cetera. And when you do these new structures, you need very decentralized structures. Burning Man, the maker movement, the open-source movement, et cetera. It's a very nurturing, participatory, female type of archetype and we're moving very quickly to that. What we're seeing in the world today is the tension going from A to B. >> And also when you have that next level, you usually have entrepreneurs and sponsorships. People who sponsor entrepreneurs the promotion side of it, PR and that starts the industry. Then when it hits that level it's like, "Wow it's going to the next level." Then it gets capital markets to come in. Then you have new stake holders coming in now with government officials. This thing is just rocket-shipping big time. >> Yes >> And so, that's going to change the dynamics. Your thoughts and reaction to that dynamic. >> Completely, for example... When we do these public sprints we end up usually with a decentralized architecture that needs to built. For example, we're working with the justice system in Colombia. And the Supreme Court has asked us to come in and re-do the entire justice system. Now you think about all the court filings and court dates, and briefs, and papers all should be digitized and put on a blockchain type structure because it's all public filing. We have an opportunity to completely re-do that stack and then make that available to the rest of the world. I think that trend is irreversible for anything that previously had centered-- I mean, most government services are yes, ratifying this and ratifying that. They all disappear. >> Well Salim, I want to tap your brain for a second. Since you're here, get it out there, I want to throw a problem at you, quick real time riff with you. So one of the things that I've been thinking about is obviously look at what cloud computing did, no one saw Amazon web services early, except some of the insiders like us. Who saw it's easy to host and build a data center. "I have no money, I'm a start-up or whatever." You use AWS, EC2 and S3... They were misunderstood, now it's clear what they're doing. But that generated the DevOps movement. So question for you is, I want to riff with you on is, "Okay that created programmable infrastructure, "the notion of server-less now going mainstream." Meaning, I don't have to talk about the server, I need resource so I can just make software, make it happen. That's flipped around the old model, where it used to be the network would dictate to the applications what they could do. How is that DevOps ethos, certainly it's driven by open-source, get applied to this cryptocurrency? Because now you have blockchain, cryptocurrency, ICO is kind of an application if you will, capital market. How does that model get flipped? Is there a DevOps model, a blockchain ops model, where the decentralized apps are programming the blockchain? Because the plumbing is the moving chain right now. You got, Hashgraph's got traction, then you got Etherium, Lightning's just got 2.5 million dollars. I mean, anyone who's technical knows it's a moving train in the plumbing. But the business logic is pretty well-defined. I'm like, "I want to innovate this process. "I'm going to eliminate the efficiency." So this dynamic. Does the business model drive infrastructure? Does the plumbing drive the business model? Your thoughts on this new dynamic and how that plays out. >> I suspect you and in violent agreement here. It's always going to be lead by the business model because you need something to act as the power of pull to pull the thing along, right? The real reason for the success of Etherium right now is all the ICOs and it was a money driven thing. Today we're going to see these new stacks, now we're on version three of these new types of stacks coming along, and I think they're all looking for a business model. Once we find some new killer ops for this decentralized structure, then you'll see things happen. But the business model is where it's at. >> So basically I agree with you. I think we're on the same page here. But then advice would be to the entrepreneurs, don't fret about the infrastructure, just nail your business model because the switching cost might not be as high as you think. Where in the old days, when we grew up, you made a bad technical assess and you're out of business. So it's kind of flipped around. >> Yeah, just hearing about this term, atomic swaps. Where you can just, essentially once you have a tokenized structure, you can just move it to something else pretty quickly. Therefore, all the effort should be on that. I think finding the really compelling use cases for this world is going to be fascinating to see. >> So software-defined money, software-defined business, software defined society is coming. >> Yes >> Okay, software defined, that's the world Salim thanks for coming on, sharing your awesome expert opinon. Congratulations on your awesome book. How many countries is your book, Exponential Organizations-- >> It's now about a quarter of a million copies in 15 languages. >> Required reading in all MBA programs, and the C-Suite. Congratulations, it's like the TANEx Engineering that Mark Dandriso put out. A whole new paradigm of management is happening. Digital transformation. >> We now have the ability to scale an organization structure as fast as we can scale technology. >> Blockchain you know, the nature of the firm was all about having people in one spot. So centralized, you can manage stuff. Now with blockchain you have a decentralized organization. That's your new book, the Decentralized Organization. >> Although, I'm not sure I have another book in me. >> There's a book out there for somebody, Decentralized Organizations. Salim, thank you for joining us. The Cube here, I'm John Furrier the co-host. Day two coverage of Blockchain Unbound more coverage after this short break. (electronic music)