>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Day three of the cube coverage here at VMware VMware Explorer, not world 12 years. The Cube's been covering VMware is end user conference this year. It's called explore previously world. We got two great guests, friends of the cube friend, cube, alumni and cloud rod, Keith Townson, principal CTO advisor, air streaming his way into world this year in a big way. Congratulations. And course James Erhard principal technology, a at tan zoo cloud ARA. He's been in cloud game for a long time. We've known each other for a long, long time, even before cloud was cloud. So great to see you guys. Thanks for coming on. >>Ah, it's a pleasure, always happy to >>Be here. So day threes are kind of like riff. I'll throw out super cloud. You guys will, will trash it. We'll debate. It'll be controversial and say this damage done by the over rotation of developer experience. We'll defend Tansu, but really the end of the game is, is that guys, we have been on the cloud thing for a long time. We're we're totally into it. And we've been saying infrastructure is code as the end state. We want to get there. Right? DevOps and infrastructure is code has always been the, the, the underlying fire burning in, in all the innovation, but it's now getting legitimately enterprised it's adopted in, in, in large scale, Amazon web services. We saw that rise. It feels we're in another level right now. And I think we're looking at this new wave coming. And I gotta say, you know, the Broadcom thing has put like an electric shock syndrome into this ecosystem cuz they don't know what's gonna happen next. So as a result, everyone's kind of gotta spring in their step a little, whether it's nervous, energy or excitement around something happening, it's all cloud native. So, you know, as VMware's got such a great investment in cloud native, but yet multi cloud's the story. Right? So, so messaging's okay. So what's happening here? Like guys let's, let's break it down. You're on the show floor of the Airstream you're on the inside, but with the seeing the industry, James will start with you what's happening this year with cloud next level and VMware's future. >>Yeah, I think the big thing that is happening is that we are beginning to see the true separation of capacity delivery from capacity consumption in computing. And what I mean by that is the, the abstractions that sort of bled between the idea of a server and the idea of an application have sort of become separated much better. And I think Kubernetes is, is the strong evidence of that. But also all of the public cloud APIs are strong evidence of that. And VMware's APIs, frankly, before that we're strong evidence of that. So I think what's, what's starting to happen now then is, is developers have really kind of pulled very far away from, from anything other than saying, I need compute, I need network. I need storage. And so now you're seeing the technologies that say, well, we've figured out how to do that at a team level, like one team can automate an application to an environment, but another team will, you know, other teams, if I have hundreds of teams or, or thousands of applications, how do I handle that? And that's what the excitement I think is right >>Now. I mean the, the developer we talking, we're going on camera before you came on camera Keith around, you know, your contr statement around the developer experience. Now we, I mean, I believe that the cloud native development environment is doing extremely well right now. You talk to, you know, look around the industry. It's, it's at an all time high and relative to euphoria, you know, sit on the beach with sunglasses. You couldn't be better if you were a developer open source, booming, everything's driving to their doorstep, self service. They're at the center of the security conversation, which shift left. Yeah. There's some things there, but it's, it's a good time. If you're a developer now is VMware gonna be changing that and, and you know, are they gonna meet the developers where they are? Are they gonna try to bring something new? So these are conversations that are super important. Now VMware has a great install base and there's developers there too. So I think I see their point, but, but you have a take on this, Keith, what's your, what's your position on this? How do the developer experience core and tangential played? >>Yeah, we're I think we're doing a disservice to the industry and I think it's hurting and, or D I think I'm gonna stand by my statement. It's damaging the in industry to, to an extent VMware >>What's damaging to the >>Industry. The focusing over focusing on developer experience developer experience is super important, but we're focusing on developer experience the, the detriment of infrastructure, the infrastructure to deliver that developer experience across the industry isn't there. So we're asking VMware, who's a infrastructure company at core to meet the developer where the developer, the developer is at today with an infrastructure that's not ready to deliver on the promise. So when we're, when NetApp is coming out with cool innovations, like adding block storage to VMC on AWS, we collectively yawn. It's an amazing innovation, but we're focused on, well, what does that mean for the developer down the road? >>It should mean nothing because if it's infrastructure's code, it should just work, right. >>It should just work, but it doesn't. Okay. >>I see the damage there. The, >>The, when you're thinking, oh, well I should be able to just simply provide Dr. Service for my on-prem service to this new block level stores, because I can do that in a enterprise today. Non-cloud, we're not there. We're not at a point where we can just write code infrastructure code and that happens. VMware needs the latitude to do that work while doing stuff like innovating on tap and we're, you know, and then I think we, we, when buyers look at what we say, and we, we say VMware, isn't meeting developers where they're at, but they're doing the hard work of normalizing across clouds. I got off a conversation with a multi-cloud customer, John, the, the, the, the unicorn we all talk about. And at the end I tried to wrap up and he said, no, no, no way. I gotta talk about vRealize. Whoa, you're the first customer I heard here talk about vRealize and, and the importance of normalizing that underlay. And we just don't give these companies in this space, the right >>Latitude. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to rock a little bit what you're saying. So from my standpoint, generically speaking, okay. If I'm a, if the developers are key to the, to the cloud native role, which I, I would say they are, then if I'm a developer and I want, and I want infrastructure as code, I'm not under the hood, I'm not getting the weeds in which some lot people love to do. I wanna just make things work. So meet me where I'm at, which means self-service, I don't care about locking someone else should figure that problem out, but I'm gonna just accelerate my velocity, making sure it's secure. And I'm moving on being creative and doing my thing, building apps. Okay. That's the kind of the generic, generic statement. So what has to happen in your mind to >>Get there? Yeah. Someone, someone has to do the dirty work of making the world move as 400, still propagate the data center. They're still H P X running SAP, E there's still, you know, 75% of the world's transactions happen through SAP. And most of that happens on bare metal. Someone needs to do the plumbing to give that infrastructure's cold world. Yeah. Someone needs to say, okay, when I want to do Dr. Between my on premises edge solution and the public cloud, someone needs to make it invisible to the Kubernetes, the, the Kubernetes consuming that, that work isn't done. Yeah. It >>Is. It's an >>Opportunity. It's on paper. >>It's an opportunity though. It's not, I mean, we're not in a bad spot. So I mean, I think what you're getting at is that there's a lot of fix a lot of gaps. All right. I want Jay, I wanna bring you in, because we had a panel at super cloud event. Chris Hoff, you know, beaker was on here. Yeah. He's always snarky, but he's building, he's been building clouds lately. So he's been getting his, his hands dirty, rolling up his sleeves. The title of panel was originally called the innovators dilemma with a question, mark, you know, haha you know, innovators, dilemma, little goof on that. Cuz you know, there's challenges and trade offs like, like he's talking about, he says we should call it the integrator's dilemma because I think a lot of people are talking about, okay, it's not as seamless as it can be or should be in the Nirvana state. >>But there's a lot of integration going on. A lot of APIs are, are key to this API security. One of the most talked about things. I mean I interviewed six companies on API security in the past couple months. So yeah. I mean I never talked to anybody about API security before this year. Yeah. APIs are critical. So these key things of cloud are being attacked. And so there's more complexity as we're getting more successful. And so, so I think this is mucking up some of the conversations, what's your read on this to make the complexity go away. You guys have the, the chaos rain here, which I actually like that Dave does too, but you know, Andy Grove once said let chaos rain and then rain in the chaos. So we're in that reign in the chaos mode. Now what's your take on what Keith was saying around. Yeah. >>So I think that the one piece of the puzzle that's missing a little bit from Keith's narrative that I think is important is it's really not just infrastructure and developers. Right? It's it's there's in fact, and, and I, I wrote a blog post about this a long time ago, right? There's there's really sort of three layers of operations that come out of the cloud model in long term and that's applications and infrastructure at the bottom and in the middle is platform and services. And so I think one of the, this is where VMware is making its play right now is in terms of providing the platform and service capability that does that integration at a lower level works with VMs works with bare metal, works with the public cloud services that are available, makes it easy to access things like database services and messaging services and things along those lines. >>It makes it easy to turn code that you write into a service that can be consumed by other applications, but ultimately creates an in environment that begins to pull away from having to know, to write code about infrastructure. Right. And so infrastructure's, code's great. But if you have a right platform, you don't have to write code about infrastructure. You can actually D declare what basic needs of the application are. And then that platform will say, okay, well I will interpret that. And that's really, that's what Kubernetes strength is. Yeah. And that's what VMware's taking advantage of with what we're doing >>With. Yeah. I remember when we first Lou Tucker and I, and I think you might have been in the room during those OpenStack days and when Kubernetes was just starting and literally just happened, the paper was written, gonna go out and a couple companies formed around it. We said that could be the interoperability layer between clouds and our, our dream at that time was Hey. And, and we, we mentioned and Stratus in our, our super cloud, but the days of spanning clouds, a dream, we thought that now look at Kubernetes. Now it's kind of become that defacto rallying moment for, I won't say middleware, but this abstraction that we've been talking about allows for right once run anywhere. I think to me, that's not nowhere in the market today. Nobody has that. Nobody has anything that could write once, read one, write once and then run on multiple clouds. >>It's more true than ever. We had one customer that just was, was using AKs for a while and then decided to try the application on EKS. And they said it took them a couple of hours to, to get through the few issues they ran into. >>Yeah. I talked to a customer who who's going from, who went from VMC on AWS to Oracle cloud on Oracle cloud's VMware solution. And he raved about now he has a inherent backup Dr. For his O CVS solution because there's a shim between the two. And >>How did he do >>That? The, there there's a solution. And this is where the white space is. James talked about in the past exists. When, when I go to a conference like Cuban, the cube will be there in, in Detroit, in, in, in about 45 days or so. I talk to platform group at the platform group. That's doing the work that VMware red had hash Corp all should be doing. I shouldn't have to build that shim while we rave and, and talk about the power Kubernetes. That's great, but Kubernetes might get me 60 to 65% of their, for the platform right now there's groups of developers within that sit in between infrastructure and sit in between application development that all they do is build platforms. There's a lot of opportunity to build that platform. VMware announced tap one, 1.3. And the thing that I'm surprised, the one on Twitter is talking about is this API discovery piece. If you've ever had to use an API and you don't know how to integrate with it or whatever, and now it, it just magically happens. The marketing at the end of developing the application. Think if you're in you're, you're in a shop that develops hundreds of applications, there's thousands or tens of thousands of APIs that have to be documented. That's beating the developer where it's at and it's also infrastructure. >>Well guys, thanks for coming on the cube. I really appreciate we're on a time deadline, which we're gonna do more. We'll follow up on a power panel after VMware Explorer. Thanks for coming on the cube. Appreciate it. No problem. See you pleasure. Yeah. Okay. We'll be back with more live coverage. You, after this short break, stay with us.

(upbeat techno music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by EBD. >> Hello everyone, this is David Vellante, for the CUBE. And we're here covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual version, thCUBE virtual, if you will. And welcome to our power-panel. Now in this session, we'll dig into database modernization. We want to better understand how and why customers are tapping open source to drive innovation. But at the same time, they've got to deliver the resiliency and enterprise capabilities that they're used to that are now necessary to support today's digital business requirements. And with me are three experts on these matters. Abdul Sheik, is Global CTO and President of Cintra. Young Il Cho, aka Charlie, is High Availability Cluster Sales Manager, at Daone CNS. And Alan Villalobos, is the Director of Development Partnerships, at IBM. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, nice to be here. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right, let's talk trends and frame the problem. Abdul, I want to start with you? Cintra you're all about this topic. Accelerating innovation using EDB Postgres helping customers move to modern platforms. And doing so, you got to do it cost-effectively but what's driving these moves? What are the problems that you're seeing at the organizations that you serve? >> Oh, so let me quickly introduce, Abdul Sheik, CTO. I'll quickly introduce Cintra. So we are a multicloud and database architecture MSP. And we've been around for 25 plus years. Headquartered in New York and the UK. But as a global organization, we're serving our SMB customers as well as large enterprise customers. And the trends we're seeing certainly in this day and age is transformation and modernization. And what that means is, customers looking to get out of the legacy platforms, get out of the legacy data centers and really move towards a modern strategy with a lower cost base, while still retaining resiliency and freedom. Ultimately, in terms of where they're going. The key words that really I see driving this, number one is choice. They've been historically locked into vendors. With limited choice with a high cost base. So choice, freedom to choose in terms of what database technologies they apply to which workloads and certainly EDB and the work that has been done to closely marry what enterprise RD platforms offer with EDBs in a work that they've done in terms of filling those gaps and addressing where the resiliency monitoring performance and security requirements are, are certainly are required from an enterprise customer perspective. Choice is driving the move that we see and choice towards a lower cost platform that can be deployed anywhere. Both on-prem modernization customers are looking to retain on premise platforms or moving into any multi clouds whether it's an infrastructure cloud play or a platform cloud play. And certainly with EDBs offering in terms of, you know the latest cloud native offerings also very interesting. And lastly, aside from just cost and the freedom to choose where they deploy those platforms the SLA, the service level model where is the resiliency requirement where the which system is going to bronze, silver, gold? Which ones are the tier one revenue platform revenue generating platforms which are the lower, lower utility platforms. So a combination of choice, a combination of freedom to deploy anywhere and while still maintaining the resiliency and the service levels that the customers need to deliver to their businesses >> Abdul that was a beautiful setup. And, and we've got so much to talk about here because customers want to move from point A to point B but getting there and they, they need help. It's sometimes not trivial. So Charlie Daone is a consultancy. You've got a strong technical capabilities. What are you seeing in this space? You know, what are the major trends? Why are organizations considering that move? And what are some of the considerations there? >> Well, like in other country in South Korea or so our a lot of customers, banking's a manufacturing distributor. They are 90, over 90%. They are all are using Oracle DB and a rack system. But as the previous presenters pointed out, a lot of customers that are sick of the Oracle and they have to undergo the huge cost of a maintenance costs. They want to move away from this cost stress. And secondly, they can think about they're providing service to customer on their cloud base which is a private or the public. So we cannot imagine running on database, Oracle database running on the cloud the system that's not matches on this cloud. And first and second, and finally the customer what they want is the cost and they want to move away from the Oracle locking. They cannot be just a slave at Oracle for a long time and the premium for the new cloud the service for the customer. >> Great. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Did you have something else to add Charlie go ahead and please. >> No that's all. >> Okay, great. Yeah, Allen, welcome to theCUBE. You know, it's very interesting to us. IBM, you, you, of course, you're a big player in database. You have a lot of expertise here. And you partner with EDB, you're offering Postgres to customers, you know, what are you seeing? Charlie was talking about Oracle and RAC. I mean, the, the, the thing there is obviously, we talked about the maintenance costs but there's also a lot of high availability capabilities. That's something that IBM really understands well. Do you see this as largely a cloud migration trend? Is it more modernization? Interested in what's IBM's perspective on this? >> I think modernization is the right word. The points that the previous panelists brought up or are on point, right? You know, lower TCO or lower costs in general but that of agility and then availability for developers and data scientists as well. And then of course, you know, hybrid cloud, right? You know, you want to be able to deploy on prem or in the cloud, or both in a mixture of all of that. And I think, I think what ties it together is the customers are looking for insights, right? And, you know, especially in larger organizations there's a myriad of data sources that they're already working with. And, you know, we, you know we want to be able to play in that space. We want to give an offering that is based on Postgres and open source and be able to further what they're strong at at and kind of, you know on top of that, you know, a layer of, of of need that we see is, is seamless data governance across all of those different stores. >> All right, I'm going to go right to the heart of the hard problem here. So if, I mean, I want to, it's just that I want to get from point A to point B, I want to save money. I want to modernize, but if I'm the canary in the coal mine at the customer, I'm saying guys, migration scares me. How do I do that? What are the considerations? And what do I need to know that I don't know. So Abdul, maybe you could walk us through what are some of the concerns that customers have? How do you help mitigate those? Whether it's other application dependencies, you know freezing code, you know, getting, again from that point A to point B without risking my existing business processes how do you handle that? >> Yeah, certainly I think a customer needs to understand what the journey looks like to begin with. So we've actually developed our own methodology that we call Rocket Cloud, which is also part of our cloud modernization strategy that builds in and database modernization strategy built into it starts with an assessment in terms of current state discovery. Not all customers totally understand where they are today. So understanding where the database state is, you know where the risks lie what are the criticality of the various databases? What technologies are used, where we have RAC or we don't have RAC but we have data God, where we have encryption. And so on. That gives the customer a very good insight in terms of the current state, both commercially and technically that's a key point to understand how they're licensed today and what costs could be freed up to free the journey to effectively fund the journey. It's a big, big topic, but once we do that, we get an idea and we've actually developed a tool called rapid discovery. That's able to discover a largest stake without knowing the database list. We just put the scripts at the database servers themselves and it tells us exactly which databases are suited to be you know, effectively migrated to Postgres with in terms of the feature function usage in terms of how heavy they are, would store procedures in the database amount of business logic use of technologies like RAC data guard and how they convert over to to Postgres specifically. That ultimately gives us the ability to give that customer an assessment and that assessment in a short sharp few weeks and get the customer view of all of my hundreds of databases. Here are the subset of candidates for Postgres and specifically than we do the schemer advisor tool the actual assessment tool from EDB, which gives us a sense of how well the schema gets converted and how best to then also look at the stored procedure conversion as well. That gives the customer a full view of their architecture mapping their specific candidate databases and then a cost analysis in terms of what that migration looks like and how we migrate. We also run and maintain those platforms once we're on EDB. >> Thank you for that again, very clear but so you're not replacing, doing an organ transplant. You may, you're you're, you know, this is not I don't mean this as a pejorative, but you're kind of cherry picking those workloads that are appropriate for EDB and then moving those and then maybe, maybe through attrition or, you know over time, sun-setting those other, those other core pieces. >> Exactly. >> Charlie, let me ask you, so we talked about RAC, real application clusters, data guard. These are, you know kind of high profile Oracle capabilities. Can you, can you really replicate the kind of resiliency at lower costs with open source, with EDB Postgres and how do you do that? >> It's my turn? >> yes, please. >> Quite technically, again, I go on in depths and technically the RAC, RAC system is so-called is the best you know, best the tool to protect data and especially in the Unix system, but apart from the RAC by the some nice data replication solution we just stream the application and log shipping and something and then monitor Pam and, and EFM solution which is enterprise failover manager. So even though it be compared to Apple the Apple RAC versus with EDB solution, we can definitely say that RAC is more stable one, but after migration, whatever, we can overcome the, you know, drawbacks of the HA cluster system by providing the EDB tools. So whatever the customer feel that after a successful migration, utilizing the EDB high availability failable solution they can make of themselves at home. So that's, that's how we approach it with the customers. >> So, Alan, again, to me, IBM is fascinating here with your level of involvement because you're the, you guys are sort of historically the master of proprietary the mainframes, VCM, CICF, EB2, all that stuff. And then, you know IBM was the first I remember Steve Mills actually announced we're going to invest a billion dollars in open source with Linux. And that was a major industry milestone. And of course, the, the acquisition of red hat. So you've got now this open source mindset this open source culture. So we, you know, as it's all about recovery in, in database and enterprise database and all the acid properties in two phase commits, and we're talking about, you know the things that Charlie just talked about. So what's your perspective here? IBM knows a lot about this. How do you help customers get there? >> Yeah, well, I mean the main, the main thrust right now IBM has a offering called IBM cloud Pak for data which from here, which runs EDB, right? EDB, Postgres runs on top of cloud Pak for Data But the, you know I think going back to Abdul's points about, you know migrating whatever's needed and whatever can be migrated to Postgres and maybe migrating other things other places, we have data virtualization and autoSQL, right? So once you have migrated those parts of your database or those schemes that can be, having, you know a single point where you can query across them and by the way, being able to query across them you know, before, during and after migration as well. Right? So we're kind of have that seamless experience of layer of SQL. And now with autoSQL of spark SQL as well, as you're, as you're migrating and after is, I'd say, you know, key to this. >> What, what's the typical migration look like? I know I'm sorry, but it's a consultant question but thinking about the, you know, the average, in terms of timeframe, what are the teams look like? You know who are the stakeholders that I need to get involved? If I'm a customer to really make this a success? maybe Abdul, you could talk about that and Charlie and Alan can chime in. >> Well, I think, well, number one you knew the exact sponsors bought into it in terms of the business case, supporting the business case an architect has got a big picture understanding not only database technology but also infrastructure that they're coming from as well as the target cloud platforms and how you ensure that the infrastructure can deliver the performance. So the architect role is important, of course the core DBA that lives within the scope of the database understands the schema of the data model the business logic itself, and the application on it. That's key specifically around the application certification testing connectivity and the migration of the code. And specifically in terms of timeline just to touch on that quickly. I mean, in our experience so far and we're seeing the momentum really really take off the last 18 months, a small project with limited business logic within the database itself can we migrate it in a couple of months but typically with all the testing and rigor around that you typically say three months timeline a medium-sized complexity projects, a six month timeline and a large complex project could be anything from nine months and beyond, but it really comes down to how heavy the database is with business logic and the database and how much effort it will take to re-engineer effectively migrate that PLC code, business logic into EDB given the compatibility level between Oracle and EDB it's relatively certainly an easier path than any other target platform in terms of options. Yeah. Not perspective. That's certainly looks like the composition of a team and timeline >> Charlie or Alan, anything you guys would add. >> Yeah. So, so I think all those personas make sense. I think you might, on the consumer side of the consumer the consumer of the data side the data scientists often we see, you know during migrations and then obviously the dev ops, I think or any operations, right, have to be heavily involved. And then lastly, you know, you see more and more data steward role or data steward type persona, CDO office type type person coming in there make sure that, you know, whatever data governance that is already in place or wants to be in place after the migration is also part of the conversation. >> Why EDB? You know, there's a lot of databases out there you know, it's funny, I always say like, you know, 10, 15 years ago databases were kind of sort of a boring market, right? It was like, okay, you're going to work or whatever. And now it's exploded. You got open source databases, you got, you know not only sequel databases, you got graph databases you know, you get cloud databases, it's going crazy. Why EDB? You wonder if you guys could address that? >> Allan why don't you go first this time? I'll compliment your answers. >> Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to, to the, the I guess varying needs and, and enterprises. Right. And I think that's, what's driven this explosion in databases, whether it's a document store like you're saying, or, or new types of RDBMS, the needs that we talked about at the beginning, like lower TCO, and the push to open source. But you know, the fact of the matter is that that yes, there is a myriad, an ecosystem of databases, pretty much any organization. And so, yeah, we want to tap into that. And why EDB? EDB has done a great job of taking Postgres and making it enterprise ready, you know, that's what they're, they're good at and that, you know fits very nicely with the IBM story obviously. And, and so, you know, and they've they've worked with us as well. They have an operator on, on the runs on red hat OpenShift. So that makes it portable as well but also part of the IBM cloud Pak for data story. And, and yeah, you know, we want to break down those silos. We realized that that need is there for all of these, you know, there's this ecosystem of databases. And so, you know, we're, we see our role as being that platform, whether it's red hat OpenShift, or IBM cloud Pak for data that, that unifies, and kind of gives you that single pane of glass across all of those sources. >> And Charlie, you're obviously all in, you've got EDB in your background. Why EDB for you? >> Before talking about EDB you asked about the previous question about how the migration was different from Oracle to EDB. We had a couple of success story in Korea telecom and some banking area, and it was easier. So EDB provide MTK tool as a people know but it was an appropriate, like a 90%. So we are the channel partner of the EDB for four years. So what we have done was to hire the Oracle expert. So we train Oracle export as as EDB expert at the same time so that they can approach customer and make it easy. So you have no worry about that. Just migrating EDB, Oracle to EDB. There is a no issue. Those telltales include all the tasks, you know Stratus test and trainee, and a POC that we there. So by investing that Oracle expert that we could overcome and persuade the customer to adopt EDB. So, why EDB? Simply I can say there, is there any database they can finally replaced Oracle in the world? Why is the, it's the interoperability between Oracle to EDB as the many experts pointed out there is no other DBE. They can, you know, 90, 90% in compatibility and intercooperability with EDB. That's why, of course, there's the somewhat, you know budget issues or maintenance issue cost the issue escape from Oracle lock-in. But I think the the number one reason was the interoperability and the compatibility with database itself, Oracle database. That was a reason, I guess >> Great Abdul we've talked about, we all know the, as is, you've got a high maintenance costs. You got a lot of tuning, and it's just a lot of complexity. What about the 2B maybe you could share with us sort of the outcome some of the outcomes you've seen what the business impact has been of some of these migrations? >> Sure. I mean, I'll give you a very simple example then just the idea of running Oracle on prem a lot of customer systems teams, for example will drive a virtualization VMware strategy. We know some of the challenges of running Oracle MBM where from a license perspective. So giving the business the ability where I want to go customer in the financial services market in New York, heavy virtualization strategy the ability for them to move away from Oracle on, you know expensive hardware on to Postgres EDB on virtualization just leverage existing skillsets, leveraging existing investment in terms of infrastructure, and also give them portability in AWS. The other clouds, you know, in terms of a migration. More from a business perspective as well, I would say about some of the Allan's points in terms of just freeing up the ability for data scientists and data consumers, to, you know, to consume some of that data from an Postgres perspective more accessibility spinning up environments quicker less latency in terms of the agility is another key word in terms of the tangible differences, the business, lower cost agility, and the freedom to deploy anywhere at the end of the day. Choices, I think the key word that we could come back to and knowing that we can do that to Charlie's point specifically around maintaining service levels. And as architects, we support some of the big, big names out there in terms of airlines, online, cosmetic retailers, financial services, trading applications, hedge funds, and they all want one thing as architect: for us to deliver that resiliency and stand behind them. And as the MSP we're accountable to ensure those systems are up and running and performing. So knowing that the EDB is provided the compatibility but also plugged the specific requirements around performance management, security availability that's fundamentally been key. >> [Dave I mean, having done a lot of TCO studies in this area, it's, it's it Oracle's different. You know, normally the biggest component of TCO is labor with Oracle. The biggest component of TCO is licensed and maintenance costs. So if you can virtualize and reduce those costs and of course, of course the Oracle will fight you and say we won't support it in a VMware environment. Of course, you know, they will, but, but you got to really, you got to battle. But, so here's my last question. So if I'm a customer in that state that you described you know, a lot of sort of Oracle sprawl a lot of databases out there, high maintenance costs, the whole lock-in thing. I got to choices. I, you know, a lot of choices out there. One is EDB. You guys have convinced me that you've got the expertise If I can partner with firms like yours, it's safer route. Okay, cool. My other choice is Oracle is going to, The Oracle sales reps is going to get me in a headlock and talk about exit data and how their Oracle cloud, and how it's, they've invested a lot there. And they have, and, I can pay by the drink all this sort of modern sort of discussion, you know, Oracle act like they invented it late to the game. And then here we are. So, so help me. What's the pitch as to, well, that's kind of compelling. It's maybe the safe bet they're there. They're working with my CIO, whatever. Why should I go with the open source route versus that route? It sounds kind of attractive to me, help me understand that each of you maybe take me through that. Abdul, why don't you start. >> Yeah. I'd say, you know, Oracle's being the defacto for so many years that people have just assumed and defaulted saying, high availability, RAC, DR. Data guard, you know, and I'll apply to any database need that I have. And at the end of the day customers have a three tier database requirement: the lowest, less critical, bronze level databases that really don't need RAC or a high availability, silver tier that are departmental solutions. That means some level of resiliency. And then you've got your gold revenue producing brand impact databases that are they're down. And certainly they won. You see no reason why the bronze and silver databases can be targeted towards EDB. Admittedly, we have some of our largest customers are running platforms, are running $5 million an hour e-commerce platform or airlines running large e-commerce platforms. And exit data certainly has a place. RAC has a place in those, in those scenarios. Were not saying that the EDB is a solution for everything in all scenarios, but apply the technology where it's appropriate where it's required and, you know, generally wherever Oracle has being the defacto and it's being applied across the estate, that's fundamentally what's changed. It doesn't have to be the only answer you have multiple choices now. EDB provides us with the ability to probably address, you know more than 50% of the databases' state, and comfortably cope with that and just apply that more expensive kind of gold tier one cost-based but also capability, you know from the highest requirements of performance and availability where it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Very pragmatic approach. Abdul, thank you for that. And Charlie. Charlie, what's your perspective? Give us your closing thoughts. >> Well, it has been, Oracle has been dominating in Asia in South Korea has market or over many years. So customers got tired of this, continuous spending money for the maintenance costs and there is no discount. There is no negotiation. So they want to move away from expensive stuff. And they were looking for a flexible platform with the easygoing and the high speed and performance open source database like a possibly as career. And now the EDB cannot replace a hundred percent of existing legacy worker, but 10%, 20% 50% as time goes on the trend that will continue. And it will be reaching some high point or replacing the existing Oracle system. And it can, it can also leading to good business chance to a channel partner and EDB steps and other related business in open source. >> Great. Thank you, Charlie and Allen, bring us home here. Give us your follow up >> I think my, co- panelists hit the nail on the head, right? It's a menu, right? That's as things become more diverse and as people make more choices and as everybody wants more agility, you have to provide, I mean, and so that, that's where that's coming in and I liked the way that Andul I kind of split it into gold silver and bronze. Yeah. And I think that that's where, we're going, right? I mean you should ask your developers right? Are your developers like pining to start up a new instance of Oracle every time you're starting a new project? Probably not reach for their Postgres right? And so, because of that, that's where this is coming from and that's not going to change. And, and yeah, that that ecosystem is going to continue to, to thrive. And there'll be lots of different flavors in the growing open source ecosystem. >> Yeah. I mean, open source absolutely is the underpinning you know, the, the bedrock of innovation, these days. Gentlemen, great power panel. Thanks so much for bringing your perspectives and best of luck in the future. >> Thank you, next time we'll try and match our backgrounds >> Next time. Well, we'll up our game. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE. Stay tuned for more great coverage. Postgres vision, 21. Be right back. (upbeat techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of Postgres Vision 2021. Brought to you by enterprise Enterprise DB. >> Hello everyone, this is David Vellante, for the CUBE. And we're here covering Postgres Vision 2021. The virtual version, thCUBE virtual, if you will. And welcome to our power-panel. Now in this session, we'll dig into database modernization. We want to better understand how and why customers are tapping open source to drive innovation. But at the same time, they've got to deliver the resiliency and enterprise capabilities that they're used to that are now necessary to support today's digital business requirements. And with me are three experts on these matters. Abdul Sheik, is Global CTO and President of Cintra. Young Il Cho, aka Charlie, is High Availability Cluster Sales Manager, at Daone CNS. And Alan Villalobos, is the Director of Development Partnerships, at IBM. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, Dave, nice to be here. >> Thank you, Dave. >> All right, let's talk trends and frame the problem. Abdul, I want to start with you? Cintra you're all about this topic. Accelerating innovation using EDB Postgres helping customers move to modern platforms. And doing so, you got to do it cost-effectively but what's driving these moves? What are the problems that you're seeing at the organizations that you serve? >> Oh, so let me quickly introduce, Abdul Sheik, CTO. I'll quickly introduce Cintra. So we are a multicloud and database architecture MSP. And we've been around for 25 plus years. Headquartered in New York and the UK. But as a global organization, we're serving our SMB customers as well as large enterprise customers. And the trends we're seeing certainly in this day and age is transformation and modernization. And what that means is, customers looking to get out of the legacy platforms, get out of the legacy data centers and really move towards a modern strategy with a lower cost base, while still retaining resiliency and freedom. Ultimately, in terms of where they're going. The key words that really I see driving this, number one is choice. They've been historically locked into vendors. With limited choice with a high cost base. So choice, freedom to choose in terms of what database technologies they apply to which workloads and certainly EDB and the work that has been done to closely marry what enterprise RD platforms offer with EDBs in a work that they've done in terms of filling those gaps and addressing where the resiliency monitoring performance and security requirements are, are certainly are required from an enterprise customer perspective. Choice is driving the move that we see and choice towards a lower cost platform that can be deployed anywhere. Both on-prem modernization customers are looking to retain on premise platforms or moving into any multi clouds whether it's an infrastructure cloud play or a platform cloud play. And certainly with EDBs offering in terms of, you know the latest cloud native offerings also very interesting. And lastly, aside from just cost and the freedom to choose where they deploy those platforms the SLA, the service level model where is the resiliency requirement where the which system is going to bronze, silver, gold? Which ones are the tier one revenue platform revenue generating platforms which are the lower, lower utility platforms. So a combination of choice, a combination of freedom to deploy anywhere and while still maintaining the resiliency and the service levels that the customers need to deliver to their businesses >> Abdul that was a beautiful setup. And, and we've got so much to talk about here because customers want to move from point A to point B but getting there and they, they need help. It's sometimes not trivial. So Charlie Daone is a consultancy. You've got a strong technical capabilities. What are you seeing in this space? You know, what are the major trends? Why are organizations considering that move? And what are some of the considerations there? >> Well, like in other country in South Korea or so our a lot of customers, banking's a manufacturing distributor. They are 90, over 90%. They are all are using Oracle DB and a rack system. But as the previous presenters pointed out, a lot of customers that are sick of the Oracle and they have to undergo the huge cost of a maintenance costs. They want to move away from this cost stress. And secondly, they can think about they're providing service to customer on their cloud base which is a private or the public. So we cannot imagine running on database, Oracle database running on the cloud the system that's not matches on this cloud. And first and second, and finally the customer what they want is the cost and they want to move away from the Oracle locking. They cannot be just a slave at Oracle for a long time and the premium for the new cloud the service for the customer. >> Great. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. Did you have something else to add Charlie go ahead and please. >> No that's all. >> Okay, great. Yeah, Allen, welcome to theCUBE. You know, it's very interesting to us. IBM, you, you, of course, you're a big player in database. You have a lot of expertise here. And you partner with EDB, you're offering Postgres to customers, you know, what are you seeing? Charlie was talking about Oracle and RAC. I mean, the, the, the thing there is obviously, we talked about the maintenance costs but there's also a lot of high availability capabilities. That's something that IBM really understands well. Do you see this as largely a cloud migration trend? Is it more modernization? Interested in what's IBM's perspective on this? >> I think modernization is the right word. The points that the previous panelists brought up or are on point, right? You know, lower TCO or lower costs in general but that of agility and then availability for developers and data scientists as well. And then of course, you know, hybrid cloud, right? You know, you want to be able to deploy on prem or in the cloud, or both in a mixture of all of that. And I think, I think what ties it together is the customers are looking for insights, right? And, you know, especially in larger organizations there's a myriad of data sources that they're already working with. And, you know, we, you know we want to be able to play in that space. We want to give an offering that is based on Postgres and open source and be able to further what they're strong at at and kind of, you know on top of that, you know, a layer of, of of need that we see is, is seamless data governance across all of those different stores. >> All right, I'm going to go right to the heart of the hard problem here. So if, I mean, I want to, it's just that I want to get from point A to point B, I want to save money. I want to modernize, but if I'm the canary in the coal mine at the customer, I'm saying guys, migration scares me. How do I do that? What are the considerations? And what do I need to know that I don't know. So Abdul, maybe you could walk us through what are some of the concerns that customers have? How do you help mitigate those? Whether it's other application dependencies, you know freezing code, you know, getting, again from that point A to point B without risking my existing business processes how do you handle that? >> Yeah, certainly I think a customer needs to understand what the journey looks like to begin with. So we've actually developed our own methodology that we call Rocket Cloud, which is also part of our cloud modernization strategy that builds in and database modernization strategy built into it starts with an assessment in terms of current state discovery. Not all customers totally understand where they are today. So understanding where the database state is, you know where the risks lie what are the criticality of the various databases? What technologies are used, where we have RAC or we don't have RAC but we have data God, where we have encryption. And so on. That gives the customer a very good insight in terms of the current state, both commercially and technically that's a key point to understand how they're licensed today and what costs could be freed up to free the journey to effectively fund the journey. It's a big, big topic, but once we do that, we get an idea and we've actually developed a tool called rapid discovery. That's able to discover a largest stake without knowing the database list. We just put the scripts at the database servers themselves and it tells us exactly which databases are suited to be you know, effectively migrated to Postgres with in terms of the feature function usage in terms of how heavy they are, would store procedures in the database amount of business logic use of technologies like RAC data guard and how they convert over to to Postgres specifically. That ultimately gives us the ability to give that customer an assessment and that assessment in a short sharp few weeks and get the customer view of all of my hundreds of databases. Here are the subset of candidates for Postgres and specifically than we do the schemer advisor tool the actual assessment tool from EDB, which gives us a sense of how well the schema gets converted and how best to then also look at the stored procedure conversion as well. That gives the customer a full view of their architecture mapping their specific candidate databases and then a cost analysis in terms of what that migration looks like and how we migrate. We also run and maintain those platforms once we're on EDB. >> Thank you for that again, very clear but so you're not replacing, doing an organ transplant. You may, you're you're, you know, this is not I don't mean this as a pejorative, but you're kind of cherry picking those workloads that are appropriate for EDB and then moving those and then maybe, maybe through attrition or, you know over time, sun-setting those other, those other core pieces. >> Exactly. >> Charlie, let me ask you, so we talked about RAC, real application clusters, data guard. These are, you know kind of high profile Oracle capabilities. Can you, can you really replicate the kind of resiliency at lower costs with open source, with EDB Postgres and how do you do that? >> It's my turn? >> yes, please. >> Quite technically, again, I go on in depths and technically the RAC, RAC system is so-called is the best you know, best the tool to protect data and especially in the Unix system, but apart from the RAC by the some nice data replication solution we just stream the application and log shipping and something and then monitor Pam and, and EFM solution which is enterprise failover manager. So even though it be compared to Apple the Apple RAC versus with EDB solution, we can definitely say that RAC is more stable one, but after migration, whatever, we can overcome the, you know, drawbacks of the HA cluster system by providing the EDB tools. So whatever the customer feel that after a successful migration, utilizing the EDB high availability failable solution they can make of themselves at home. So that's, that's how we approach it with the customers. >> So, Alan, again, to me, IBM is fascinating here with your level of involvement because you're the, you guys are sort of historically the master of proprietary the mainframes, VCM, CICF, EB2, all that stuff. And then, you know IBM was the first I remember Steve Mills actually announced we're going to invest a billion dollars in open source with Linux. And that was a major industry milestone. And of course, the, the acquisition of red hat. So you've got now this open source mindset this open source culture. So we, you know, as it's all about recovery in, in database and enterprise database and all the acid properties in two phase commits, and we're talking about, you know the things that Charlie just talked about. So what's your perspective here? IBM knows a lot about this. How do you help customers get there? >> Yeah, well, I mean the main, the main thrust right now IBM has a offering called IBM cloud Pak for data which from here, which runs EDB, right? EDB, Postgres runs on top of cloud Pak for Data But the, you know I think going back to Abdul's points about, you know migrating whatever's needed and whatever can be migrated to Postgres and maybe migrating other things other places, we have data virtualization and auto-sequel, right? So once you have migrated those parts of your database or those schemes that can be, having, you know a single point where you can query across them and by the way, being able to query across them you know, before, during and after migration as well. Right? So we're kind of have that seamless experience of layer of sequel. And now with auto sequel of sparks sequel as well, as you're, as you're migrating and after is, I'd say, you know, key to this. >> What, what's the typical migration look like? I know I'm sorry, but it's a consultant question but thinking about the, you know, the average, in terms of timeframe, what are the teams look like? You know who are the stakeholders that I need to get involved? If I'm a customer to really make this a success? maybe Abdul, you could talk about that and Charlie and Alan can chime in. >> Well, I think, well, number one you knew the exact sponsors bought into it in terms of the business case, supporting the business case an architect has got a big picture understanding not only database technology but also infrastructure that they're coming from as well as the target cloud platforms and how you ensure that the infrastructure can deliver the performance. So the architect role is important, of course the core DBA that lives within the scope of the database understands the schema of the data model the business logic itself, and the application on it. That's key specifically around the application certification testing connectivity and the migration of the code. And specifically in terms of timeline just to touch on that quickly. I mean, in our experience so far and we're seeing the momentum really really take off the last 18 months, a small project with limited business logic within the database itself can we migrate it in a couple of months but typically with all the testing and rigor around that you typically say three months timeline a medium-sized complexity projects, a six month timeline and a large complex project could be anything from nine months and beyond, but it really comes down to how heavy the database is with business logic and the database and how much effort it will take to re-engineer effectively migrate that PLC code, business logic into EDB given the compatibility level between Oracle and EDB it's relatively certainly an easier path than any other target platform in terms of options. Yeah. Not perspective. That's certainly looks like the composition of a team and timeline >> Charlie or Alan, anything you guys would add. >> Yeah. So, so I think all those personas make sense. I think you might, on the consumer side of the consumer the consumer of the data side the data scientists often we see, you know during migrations and then obviously the dev ops, I think or any operations, right, have to be heavily involved. And then lastly, you know, you see more and more data steward role or data steward type persona, CDO office type type person coming in there make sure that, you know, whatever data governance that is already in place or wants to be in place after the migration is also part of the conversation. >> Why EDB? You know, there's a lot of databases out there you know, it's funny, I always say like, you know, 10, 15 years ago databases were kind of sort of a boring market, right? It was like, okay, you're going to work or whatever. And now it's exploded. You got open source databases, you got, you know not only sequel databases, you got graph databases you know, you get cloud databases, it's going crazy. Why EDB? You wonder if you guys could address that? >> Allan why don't you go first this time? I'll compliment your answers. >> Yeah. I mean, again, I think it goes back to, to the, the I guess varying needs and, and enterprises. Right. And I think that's, what's driven this explosion in databases, whether it's a document store like you're saying, or, or new types of RDBMS, the needs that we talked about at the beginning, like lower TCO, and the push to open source. But you know, the fact of the matter is that that yes, there is a myriad, an ecosystem of databases, pretty much any organization. And so, yeah, we want to tap into that. And why EDB? EDB has done a great job of taking Postgres and making it enterprise ready, you know, that's what they're, they're good at and that, you know fits very nicely with the IBM story obviously. And, and so, you know, and they've they've worked with us as well. They have an operator on, on the runs on red hat OpenShift. So that makes it portable as well but also part of the IBM cloud Pak for data story. And, and yeah, you know, we want to break down those silos. We realized that that need is there for all of these, you know, there's this ecosystem of databases. And so, you know, we're, we see our role as being that platform, whether it's red hat OpenShift, or IBM cloud Pak for data that, that unifies, and kind of gives you that single pane of glass across all of those sources. >> And Charlie, you're obviously all in, you've got EDB in your background. Why EDB for you? >> Before talking about EDB you asked about the previous question about how the migration was different from Oracle to EDB. We had a couple of success story in Korea telecom and some banking area, and it was easier. So EDB provide MTK tool as a people know but it was an appropriate, like a 90%. So we are the channel partner of the EDB for four years. So what we have done was to hire the Oracle expert. So we train Oracle export as as EDB expert at the same time so that they can approach customer and make it easy. So you have no worry about that. Just migrating EDB, Oracle to EDB. There is a no issue. Those telltales include all the tasks, you know Stratus test and trainee, and a POC that we there. So by investing that Oracle expert that we could overcome and persuade the customer to adopt EDB. So, why EDB? Simply I can say there, is there any database they can finally replaced Oracle in the world? Why is the, it's the interoperability between Oracle to EDB as the many experts pointed out there is no other DBE. They can, you know, 90, 90% in compatibility and intercooperability with EDB. That's why, of course, there's the somewhat, you know budget issues or maintenance issue cost the issue escape from Oracle lock-in. But I think the the number one reason was the interoperability and the compatibility with database itself, Oracle database. That was a reason, I guess >> Great Abdul we've talked about, we all know the, as is, you've got a high maintenance costs. You got a lot of tuning, and it's just a lot of complexity. What about the 2B maybe you could share with us sort of the outcome some of the outcomes you've seen what the business impact has been of some of these migrations? >> Sure. I mean, I'll give you a very simple example then just the idea of running Oracle on prem a lot of customer systems teams, for example will drive a virtualization VMware strategy. We know some of the challenges of running Oracle MBM where from a license perspective. So giving the business the ability where I want to go customer in the financial services market in New York, heavy virtualization strategy the ability for them to move away from Oracle on, you know expensive hardware on to Postgres EDB on virtualization just leverage existing skillsets, leveraging existing investment in terms of infrastructure, and also give them portability in AWS. The other clouds, you know, in terms of a migration. More from a business perspective as well, I would say about some of the Allan's points in terms of just freeing up the ability for data scientists and data consumers, to, you know, to consume some of that data from an Postgres perspective more accessibility spinning up environments quicker less latency in terms of the agility is another key word in terms of the tangible differences, the business, lower cost agility, and the freedom to deploy anywhere at the end of the day. Choices, I think the key word that we could come back to and knowing that we can do that to Charlie's point specifically around maintaining service levels. And as architects, we support some of the big, big names out there in terms of airlines, online, cosmetic retailers, financial services, trading applications, hedge funds, and they all want one thing as architect: for us to deliver that resiliency and stand behind them. And as the MSP we're accountable to ensure those systems are up and running and performing. So knowing that the EDB is provided the compatibility but also plugged the specific requirements around performance management, security availability that's fundamentally been key. >> [Dave I mean, having done a lot of TCO studies in this area, it's, it's it Oracle's different. You know, normally the biggest component of TCO is labor with Oracle. The biggest component of TCO is licensed and maintenance costs. So if you can virtualize and reduce those costs and of course, of course the Oracle will fight you and say we won't support it in a VMware environment. Of course, you know, they will, but, but you got to really, you got to battle. But, so here's my last question. So if I'm a customer in that state that you described you know, a lot of sort of Oracle sprawl a lot of databases out there, high maintenance costs, the whole lock-in thing. I got to choices. I, you know, a lot of choices out there. One is EDB. You guys have convinced me that you've got the expertise If I can partner with firms like yours, it's safer route. Okay, cool. My other choice is Oracle is going to, The Oracle sales reps is going to get me in a headlock and talk about exit data and how their Oracle cloud, and how it's, they've invested a lot there. And they have, and, I can pay by the drink all this sort of modern sort of discussion, you know, Oracle act like they invented it late to the game. And then here we are. So, so help me. What's the pitch as to, well, that's kind of compelling. It's maybe the safe bet they're there. They're working with my CIO, whatever. Why should I go with the open source route versus that route? It sounds kind of attractive to me, help me understand that each of you maybe take me through that. Abdul, why don't you start. >> Yeah. I'd say, you know, Oracle's being the defacto for so many years that people have just assumed and defaulted saying, high availability, RAC, DR. Data guard, you know, and I'll apply to any database need that I have. And at the end of the day customers have a three tier database requirement: the lowest, less critical, bronze level databases that really don't need RAC or a high availability, silver tier that are departmental solutions. That means some level of resiliency. And then you've got your gold revenue producing brand impact databases that are they're down. And certainly they won. You see no reason why the bronze and silver databases can be targeted towards EDB. Admittedly, we have some of our largest customers are running platforms, are running $5 million an hour e-commerce platform or airlines running large e-commerce platforms. And exit data certainly has a place. RAC has a place in those, in those scenarios. Were not saying that the EDB is a solution for everything in all scenarios, but apply the technology where it's appropriate where it's required and, you know, generally wherever Oracle has being the defacto and it's being applied across the estate, that's fundamentally what's changed. It doesn't have to be the only answer you have multiple choices now. EDB provides us with the ability to probably address, you know more than 50% of the databases' state, and comfortably cope with that and just apply that more expensive kind of gold tier one cost-based but also capability, you know from the highest requirements of performance and availability where it's appropriate. >> Yeah. Very pragmatic approach. Abdul, thank you for that. And Charlie. Charlie, what's your perspective? Give us your closing thoughts. >> Well, it has been, Oracle has been dominating in Asia in South Korea has market or over many years. So customers got tired of this, continuous spending money for the maintenance costs and there is no discount. There is no negotiation. So they want to move away from expensive stuff. And they were looking for a flexible platform with the easygoing and the high speed and performance open source database like a possibly as career. And now the EDB cannot replace a hundred percent of existing legacy worker, but 10%, 20% 50% as time goes on the trend that will continue. And it will be reaching some high point or replacing the existing Oracle system. And it can, it can also leading to good business chance to a channel partner and EDB steps and other related business in open source. >> Great. Thank you, Charlie and Allen, bring us home here. Give us your follow up >> I think my, co- panelists hit the nail on the head, right? It's a menu, right? That's as things become more diverse and as people make more choices and as everybody wants more agility, you have to provide, I mean, and so that, that's where that's coming in and I liked the way that Andul I kind of split it into gold silver and bronze. Yeah. And I think that that's where, we're going, right? I mean you should ask your developers right? Are your developers like pining to start up a new instance of Oracle every time you're starting a new project? Probably not reach for their Postgres right? And so, because of that, that's where this is coming from and that's not going to change. And, and yeah, that that ecosystem is going to continue to, to thrive. And there'll be lots of different flavors in the growing open source ecosystem. >> Yeah. I mean, open source absolutely is the underpinning you know, the, the bedrock of innovation, these days. Gentlemen, great power panel. Thanks so much for bringing your perspectives and best of luck in the future. >> Thank you, next time we'll try and match our backgrounds >> Next time. Well, we'll up our game. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for theCUBE. Stay tuned for more great coverage. Postgres vision, 21. Be right back. (upbeat techno music)

(energetic electronic music) >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with The Cube. We're in a very special place. We're in Austin, Texas at the Dell EMC HPC and AI Innovation Lab. High performance computing, artificial intelligence. This is really where it all happens. Where the engineers at Dell EMC are putting together these ready-made solutions for the customers. They got every type of application stack in here, and we're really excited to have our next guest. He's right in the middle of it, he's Michael Bennett, Senior Principal Engineer for Dell EMC. Mike, great to see you. >> Great to see you too. >> So you're working on one particular flavor of the AI solutions, and that's really machine learning with Hadoop. So tell us a little bit about that. >> Sure yeah, the product that I work on is called the Ready Solution for AI Machine Learning with Hadoop, and that product is a Cloudera Hadoop distribution on top of our Dell powered servers. And we've partnered with Intel, who has released a deep learning library, called Big DL, to bring both the traditional machine learning capabilities as well as deep learning capabilities to the product. Product also adds a data science workbench that's released by Cloudera. And this tool allows the customer's data scientists to collaborate together, provides them secure access to the Hadoop cluster, and we think all-around makes a great product to allow customers to gain the power of machine learning and deep learning in their environment, while also kind of reducing some of those overhead complexities that IT often faces with managing multiple environments, providing secure access, things like that. >> Right, cause the big knock always on Hadoop is that it's just hard. It's hard to put in, there aren't enough people, there aren't enough experts. So you guys are really offering a pre-bundled solution that's ready to go? >> Correct, yeah. We've built seven or eight different environments going in the lab at any time to validate different hardware permutations that we may offer of the product as well as, we've been doing this since 2009, so there's a lot of institutional knowledge here at Dell to draw on when building and validating these Hadoop products. Our Dell services team has also been going out installing and setting these up, and our consulting services has been helping customers fit the Hadoop infrastructure into their IT model. >> Right, so is there one basic configuration that you guys have? Or have you found there's two or three different standard-use cases that call for two or three different kinds of standardized solutions? >> We find that most customers are preferring the R7-40XC series. This platform can hold 12 3 1/2" form-factor drives in the front, along with four in the mid-plane, while still providing four SSDs in the back. So customers get a lot of versatility with this. It's also won several Hadoop benchmarking awards. >> And do you find, when you're talking to customers or you're putting this together, that they've tried themselves and they've tried to kind of stitch together and cobble together the open-source proprietary stuff all the way down to network cards and all this other stuff to actually make the solution come together? And it's just really hard, right? >> Yeah, right exactly. What we hear over and over from our product management team is that their interactions with customers, come back with customers saying it's just too hard. They get something that's stable and they come back and they don't know why it's no longer working. They have customized environments that each developer wants for their big data analytics jobs. Things like that. So yeah, overall we're hearing that customers are finding it very complex. >> Right, so we hear time and time again that same thing. And even though we've been going to Hadoop Summit and Hadoop World and Stratus, since 2010. The momentum seems to be a little slower in terms of the hype, but now we're really moving into heavy-duty real time production and that's what you guys are enabling with this ready-made solution. >> So with this product, yeah, we focused on enabling Apache Spark on the Hadoop environment. And that Apache Spark distributed computing has really changed the game as far as what it allows customers to do with their analytics jobs. No longer are we writing things to disc, but multiple transformations are being performed in memory, and that's also a big part of what enables the big DL library that Intel released for the platform to train these deep-learning models. >> Right, cause the Sparks enables the real-time analytics, right? Now you've got streaming data coming into this thing, versus the batch which was kind of the classic play of Hadoop. >> Right and not only do you have streaming data coming in, but Spark also enables you to load your data in memory and perform multiple operations on it. And draw insights that maybe you couldn't before with traditional map-reduce jobs. >> Right, right. So what gets you excited to come to work every day? You've been playing with these big machines. You're in the middle of nerd nirvana I think-- >> Yeah exactly. >> With all of the servers and spin-discs. What gets you up in the morning? What are you excited about, as you see AI get more pervasive within the customers and the solutions that you guys are enabling? >> You know, for me, what's always exciting is trying new things. We've got this huge lab environment with all kinds of lab equipment. So if you want to test a new iteration, let's say tiered HGFS storage with SSDs and traditional hard drives, throw it together in a couple of hours and see what the results are. If we wanted to add new PCIE devices like FPGAs for the inference portion the deep-learning development we can put those in our servers and try them out. So I enjoy that, on top of the validated, thoroughly-worked-through solutions that we offer customers, we can also experiment, play around, and work towards that next generation of technology. >> Right, 'cause any combination of hardware that you basically have at your disposal to try together and test and see what happens? >> Right, exactly. And this is my first time actually working at a OEM, and so I was surprised, not only do we have access to anything that you can see out in the market, but we often receive test and development equipment from partners and vendors, that we can work with and collaborate with to ensure that once the product reaches market it has the features that customers need. >> Right, what's the one thing that trips people up the most? Just some simple little switch configuration that you think is like a minor piece of something, that always seems to get in the way? >> Right, or switches in general. I think that people focus on the application because the switch is so abstracted from what the developer or even somebody troubleshooting the system sees, that oftentimes some misconfiguration or some typo that was entered during the switch configuration process that throws customers off or has somebody scratching their head, wondering why they're not getting the kind of performance that they thought. >> Right, well that's why we need more automation, right? That's what you guys are working on. >> Right yeah exactly. >> Keep the fat-finger typos out of the config settings. >> Right, consistent reproducible. None of that, I did it yesterday and it worked I don't know what changed. >> Right, alright Mike. Well thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day, and don't have too much fun playing with all this gear. >> Awesome, thanks for having me. >> Alright, he's Mike Bennett and I'm Jeff Frick. You're watching The Cube, from Austin Texas at the Dell EMC High Performance Computing and AI Labs. Thanks for watching. (energetic electronic music)

>> Hello everyone, welcome to a special CUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media, co-host of theCUBE. We are in our studio with special guest Niraj Tolia who is the CEO and co-founder of Kasten, hot start-up in the cloud-native space. Doing some very interesting things. Really kind of a modern approach to bringing software development, data, and cloud all together. Welcome to this conversation. >> Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. >> Congratulations on all your success. I know you guys have done a lot with your seed funding. Take a second before we get into some of the things I think are the most important stories in cloud-native, which is Kubernetes, obviously the heart of it, coming back from that CubeCon. What's going on with Kasten? Tell me about the company, when you were formed, how many employees, I know you did a seed round, so just talk about what you guys do. >> Okay, great, so Kasten is a company where, for those of you who are curious, it's actually a German word, it means "container," so it's very apropos for what we're doing. We were founded over a year ago at this point in time. We're based here in California, in the Bay Area. We did a $3 million dollar seed round, it was Angel only, so no institutional, a lot of interest from people that are working with other entrepreneurs in the cloud-native ecosystem. >> It's people in the industry. >> People in the industry. >> Kind of inside the ropes. Like the individuals. >> Yeah, so personal investments from all the top five cloud companies, as an example, folks that have been funding other co-founders for a while. So we're very happy to have them in our corner, in particular, Amarjit Gill sits on our board, so he's had multiple successes, both with investments and personally, so we're so happy to have him as one of our backers. And right, so we're roughly nine people right now, all local people, with a lot of both start-up and enterprise experience. So it's the right set of people, it's a very diverse group of people, so we're very happy with the team we've put together, too. >> Yeah, diversity, this was at Sundance, and even on the film side, some of the most successful virtual reality companies are Stanford systems majors, and huge diversity interdisciplinary dynamic, and I want to drill into that. Okay, so no series A yet, no board members from VCs, I'm sure they're knocking on your doors, clamoring down to get some of the success you have, but what's different about your approach you guys are taking? Is the positioning, assess, what's the product, how you guys make money? Where are you seeing that? >> Okay, great question. So, at the very high level you're focused on making it very easy for enterprises to deploy, manage, build stable applications in the cloud-native way. In terms of how we see people adopting it, I think that there's been a tremendous mind shift, as well as an ecosystem shift, where we see this blurring of lines between applications and infrastructures. So one of the unique insights we saw ourselves was that to approach this problem, we need to come at it from a developer-first point of view, and application-first point of view, instead of, like, I'm a recovering infrastructure person coming at it from the bottom up, where you think disks, and volumes, and storage arrays. This is really about the application, it's about the cloud, it's about the deployment model, it's about how we enable and empower developers, but also operators in these large-scale environments, and get through to the right balance of responsibility between the two, and that's really what's resonating with the customers we work with today. >> Yeah, and certainly the cloud-native trend has been the hottest thing, it's exciting for me, because the early days of the "clouderati," you know, the 2008, 2009 timeframe, you saw the first generation dev ops, and these were folks who were open source guys and gals who had to build their own stuff from scratch. I used to say, eating glass and spitting out nails, you know, hardcore techies. Then, as it goes mainstream with cloud computing, this is the modus operandi that people want to program in. Just, infrastructure is code, as it's been called. This now is mainstream. So okay, given that, we've been covering that until the cows come home. But now, you're talking about orchestration, you're talking about some of the next level thinking, which is how to make things easier, how to automate, how to make it so the developer doesn't have to do the provisioning, all that stuff. This is key, okay, I get that. Now everyone goes, "Oh no, where's my data?" That seems to be something that you guys seem to be taking in tact. What are you guys doing specifically around data management, because data is now not only part of the app, it's a critical lynch pin to the value creation in, whether it's collecting intelligence, or any kind of coolness at the app level is data-driven. What do you guys do? >> So, a great question. So when you talk about data management, somewhat of a nebulous term, but to make it more concrete, we really care about protecting your data, making sure it is safe, in particular, when you're working across multiple environments, multiple clusters, multiple clouds, but we care a lot more, as you talked about, enabling and making it simple. So what does data mobility look like? What does data manipulation look like? So whether you're talking entire application stacks with the data across clusters in the same cloud, or across multiple clouds, those are some of the things we make it very easy for people to do, because it is highly relevant, and these are the apps they come for, and it's not just the CICD environment, but also talking about production environments, and operator challenges there. So, more concretely, when we look at the use cases for our product involving disaster recovery, involving data protection, backup and recovery, multi-cloud migration, that's where we come in with our customers today. Okay, so to go back in my generation, when I was growing up in the business, when we had to build all of our own stuff, build our own stacks, that's how old I am, I remember those glory days, we had data architects. And those silo base, your app was your database, and schemas, and all that good stuff, but now data is horizontally scalable to client, a beautiful thing, right? So this is a key dynamic. What do companies, and developers specifically have to think about when they think about being a data architect? Because every conversation I go into, it's like, oh, what's our data layer strategy going to be? This is important, because now workloads are sharing data, so you might have two workloads, A and B, sharing data. That's kind of outside the current old guard mentality. What are you guys doing there? Do you see that as something that's important? >> It's important, right? So, what's happened is a lot of power and responsibility has shifted to the developer from the former data architectural, sometimes, it would be a database engineering team, etc. And we want to empower that. There's still challenges, especially when you look at things like compliance auditing, when you have sensitive data at play. So we make some of those things easier from having auditing compliance features in there, but what we really care about is, and some of this we also do it in an open source manner, and that is we work with people to make sure the developers don't slow down, they can pick their own technology stacks, where to store the data, and it's all really part of code for them, but from the operator, from the architect point of view, they have visibility into that. >> Who's the operator? Define operator in that context. >> It's a good question. The operator tends to be one of two people. It tends to be the people that care about infrastructure, about keeping the lights on, that's what they worry about. >> Like an IT guy. >> Yeah, it used to be IT guys, now it tends the dev ops team, the SRE team, etc. So they're transitioning into this role, as you see skills change over time, too. Or sometime they will be the team that used to be former database engineering teams, as an example, they supervisioned this, but now their goal is, and we hear this from customers, is that we care about developer experiences, not about shipping binaries and patches anymore. This is about making sure for our users we can make our developers fast and empower them. So how do they deliver that, without getting in the way, but still getting some of the things they used to do earlier, is being able to make sure all the data's stored in the same manner, that is it services the need of the broader business, whether other groups using it, whether it be disaster recovery, business continuity. So all of those, so we want to be able to empower both sides of this party so they feel comfortable moving into this new world today. >> You know, I go back to the open stack days, and still going on now, you see it more in the cloud-native, the distinction between stateful and stateless applications. What's your reaction to the growth of stateful applications? Is it growing? How is it growing? What are some of the characteristics of how that is shaping out with stateful applications? >> Okay, so let's talk about sometimes the misconceptions the community has today, that platforms are just communities and not ready for stateful workloads. We definitely believe that is not true, and it's not just us, there are a plethora of companies using stateful applications in production today. It was late, initially we saw the compute part handled, and more advanced scheduling orchestration that you saw on top of the multiple frameworks with Kubernetes vending again. We saw a lot of networking innovation in there, including service mesh, which I know you have covered a lot in detail earlier, but now we are seeing data come into play, and that is the third leg of the stool that we believe it will be important for real life large scale production workloads in these environments. With new features being GA'd in Kubernetes 1.9, such as the whole workloads category, with other open source frameworks popping up to support that, that out of tree, we see a lot more people feeling comfortable when deploying stateful applications, but what they really want is the same ease of use and flexibility that they had with stateless applications. And that is a gap that still needs to be bridged, and the multiple people working on that. >> I got to ask, since you're an expert here, we have a lot of our audience is learning about this space, so we talk and we're having some fun here about some of the support services in cloud-native, but some people just don't even understand the difference between stateless and stateful, in context to unlocking business value. So there's a lot of now people coming in and saying, "Okay, I get dev ops. "Where's the business value?" There's some context here, so what is, in your definition, the difference between stateless and stateful applications? >> So, the way I look at it is, when I look at stateless applications, it is much easier to blow them away, bring them back anywhere you want because they might have some cache stay, but nothing persistent, right? And generally, all those apps depend on persistence, but it's stored outside of the cloud-native environment. We want to bring that in, when you talk about stateful applications. But it's not just that, it's also the model of building stateful applications is changing, where you get polyglot persistence, with people using, if you use GitHub, as an example, they use, Stratus, postscripts, and other data services all in the same app. You want it as a part of being embedded within the application, and you're also getting sharding of data, what used to be a large monolith database, the same way we see microservice evolution on the stateless sided of things, we're seeing the same thing on the stateful side, where datasets are getting broken up logically into multiple distinct components that are managed and operated independently. >> So let's talk about that a second, because stateless applications was an approach people took because it was easier, right? And it was relevant at that time, but it's been said, certainly on theCUBE many times, it's hard to do stateful applications. Why is it hard, and what are the benefits of doing it? >> Okay, it's hard to do stateful applications because, A, it is a greater risk of losing your customer's data, so you treat it with slightly more care. Some of the primitives, especially when you look at the cloud-native world, weren't ready 18 months ago, as an example. Whether you talk about things like container storage interface, whether you talk about things like stateful sets, whether you talk about applications that come with a notion of permanence, sometimes they remember the host name, the IP address. And we see a lot of traditional applications moving into this environment, too. But that is being fixed by the community, which is a very amazing thing, and they approach it with a developer-first focus. The benefits of bringing it into this environment are tremendous, because you get this business agility side of things, not just developer agility, where you can move much faster because you don't depend on external resources anymore. You get the advantage of being able to clone application stacks at a click or at an API call level. You get the advantage of being able to take these applications and port them across multiple places because these primitives that are provided by underlying container orchestration layer make it so much easier to do so. So, there's a lot of advantages to bringing it into the fold, so to speak, than leaving it outside right now. >> I was talking to someone in the industry, I won't say their name, outing them, but, "Oh man, it's so hard, it's complete bullshit, "stateful applications never going to happen. "Can't scale," the scale is the problem, So I got to ask you if you can address that, because if you go down this road, enterprises are going to start thinking about the most important thing, which is scale. What are the challenges that enterprises have with stateful, at scale. >> That's a good question, so there are two or three different kinds of things. The obvious thing, especially, that jumps into a developer's mind when it comes to scale is things like performance. But I think that is only one aspect of things, and there are scale out system when you think of Cassandra, etc, that are getting a better handle on some of those issues. But more importantly, we deal with scale, especially from the enterprise point of view, as far as data's concerned, people care about visibility, right. Show me about my status, as developers are constantly changing architectures, constantly deploying, they have scale issues when you spread across multiple clouds, with multiple clusters. So help me manage some of those things. They have issues that are in compliance of the state, which is much larger, especially as it gets segmented out. Because it's not just, we know customers are running hundreds of instances of MongoDB, as an example, in some of these environments, and just trying to wrap the mind around managing all of that at scale is another issue. So these are all the things that enterprises think about when they talk about scale, and not just performance scale, or I-OPS scale, but it's about management scale. >> How do you guys solve that problem? >> So, we solve it in a number of different ways. First of all, we believe in treating the problem with the application-first approach. So we think of the application first, so it doesn't matter how many volumes you're using, or how many disks, if you're not using shared storage, because you have no single point of failure in modern cloud-native database systems. So there is that. And then that's the UNIF encapsulation that we provide high levels of abstraction on to get people an easy view to see what's unmanaged, what's managed in the system, where do I have workloads, did something new show up, and simply so we can notify about that. So those are all the things that we make it easy, apart from this, monitoring things like health of the system, validating things, which are table stakes right now. >> So I got to ask you, as you see this evolution happening, and you guys are at the forefront of it, with your startup, and again, congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Like what you guys are doing, about the challenges in the enterprise are, "We already have a data management solution." You must get that a lot, so I got to ask you, when you roll into a customer, a potential customer that you have now, and you say, hey, we got this covered, we can do stable applications, we're application-centric, we're doing dev ops, we're doing, the lines are blurring, you should look at us. And the client says, whoa, hey, you know what? I already got a data management provider for my application. What do you say to that? >> It's a good thing, so we see that not across a large fraction of our customers, we definitely see that across some. The majority reason why sometimes we don't see it, or how we respond to this is the large fraction of tools out there used to cater to what we now say legacy environments, but they tend to be very server or VM-centric thing, things that don't move, things that are constantly on scaling up and down, things that are quite static. When you go look at tools that come from large companies and storage vendor space, as an example. So one of the things that we help provide this is tools that are cloud-native themselves, that can adapt to cloud-native workloads, that are built first for a cloud-native world. So in that way, that easily resonates with customers. And the other thing we talk about is extensibility. Again, when you talk about data management solutions right now, they don't really, they operate at the infrastructure level, but they can't figure out what it means to take a consistent view of a large distributed Cassandra system, as an example, or how to stitch together things to stay consistent across multiple data stores. We have an extensible framework that allows people to inject their own code into our system that says, I want to do things in a custom manner, I want to do things that's particularly to my context, my enterprise, and we help enable that, which again, none of the existing data management tools can do today. >> Okay, so you guys have, this is what you call the K10 platform? >> It's a K10 platform, and the extensibility part I talked about is called Kanister. It's an open source project, you can find it on GitHub. >> Did you guys sponsor that, or is that a different one? >> That is sponsored by us, so we did involve that. It's all based on what customer needs came out to be, and we said this is something that doesn't make sense for us to hold, we would like to build a community around it, we would like to see people contribute to it, and be the common place where people can share recipes or blueprints for managing. >> So Kanister's a community approach you guys are taking. How's it going, what's the uptake on that? >> It's good, right, so apart from GitHub's stores, we have people on the Slack channel, we have people we can have independently, we have people that have asked us how to develop their own blueprints for more complicated workflows. So even though we released it roughly a month ago, at this point in time, the input we've got in both public and private channels has been really good. >> Great, okay, that's awesome. Well, I want to shift views a little bit, talk about multi-cloud, it's the hottest story in tech. Some even are arguing what the hell is multi-cloud? Just so it happened, I have 365 on Azure, and doing something on Google TensorFlow, and I'm running some stuff in Amazon, that's multiple clouds, but it's not the same workload. I don't consider that multi-cloud per se, I think that's multiple clouds having a workload from a company. So, with that, what are the biggest problems customers are facing with multi-cloud, in your opinion? Because you guys are kind of teasing this out, you got Kubernetes and all this stuff going on, what are the challenges with multi-cloud? >> So because we help customers in multiple public clouds, right, we see a lot of this. In terms of a target carrier for enterprises, the vast majority, I'm talking 85% plus, are in multiple public clouds. Different reasons, we can talk about that why, but they're multiple public clouds. And what we see for them is there's a spectrum, the multi-cloud doesn't mean one thing. We see people at different degrees on the spectrum. Small minority care about check boxes and insurance, that is, push come to shove, help me move to a different cloud, but really the majority of these cases we see is not about moving on a daily basis with an application between cloud A to B, but they see problems in terms of, I want this application to run on cloud A and B, and sometimes and C, because they have a Google footprint, and they might not always have the cloud provider of choice in the region they want to expand into. >> Before you go further, I want to just double down on that, because that seems really easy to just go, oh, we just go on all three clouds. But you know, you get S3 on AWS, Azure's got a different storage, so each stack has its own coding. And that's a problem. >> Yes. >> So, is it a problem, or how bad is it? >> It is a problem, so let's talk about two or three things happening that help solve this. So some of it's a problem, Kubernetes has done a great job, in particular, of abstracting some of those things away, not all of them, but some of them away. There are other new abstractions coming out, such as the OpenService broker that originated in the Cloud Foundry movement, and now has been picked up by multiple different platforms, that's again helping abstract some of these differences away. We help with some of the management, as well as portability across these environments, because we can take care in making sure policies management, all of that looks the same no matter what cloud provider you're working on, and we understand the underlying infrastructure, and we translate the business level or operator level objectives into infrastructure level objectives, so there's some that we do to also help in that space. So overall, I think the situation is much better than it was, say, three years ago in terms of being able to do some of this. Obviously, the devil's sometime in the details, but now we are, it's getting... >> The goal is not to hire a whole development team with each stack. >> Exactly. >> That's kind of the end game everyone's trying to get to. >> Yeah, you want a small delta vs a large delta. >> Yeah, some customization, I mean you could look at the open source distribution, maybe 10% and 90% were used, or using abstractions. >> Exactly, and that is a realistic goal that, I believe, most people are pragmatic actually. >> How is Kubernetes, and Kasten helping specifically solve multi-cloud problems? >> That's a good question, again. Right, so Kubernetes, again, so let's talk about a customer base, right? A lot of people are picking Kubernetes, even though sometimes they're squarely on-prem, because they know they will be moving to public clouds, sometimes a compliance issue, sometimes a road map issue, but they know they're moving there, and this gives them the abstractions that they're not tied under particular infrastructure underneath, whether it be a VM-based platform, or open stack internal, or some public cloud render, they're picking that with the goal in mind. Because a lot of the concepts are cloud-neutral. What we do is we help take also some of the data around it, data that might be sitting on a storage provider of choice, and make that cross-cloud portable, either by doing it at the application layer, which is a great thing, or by being able to understand the differences between clouds, if you just click a button or call up an API, you can say, I want to migrate this entire application stack, including services, configuration, your state, your container images, all of that into a cloud, into a different cloud in a different region. So we take off all the complexity for our users, for the developers, for the operators. >> So I got to ask you the cloud question that I always like, going through all the marketing hype from the cloud vendors, and that is, regions matter, right? So when you're talking about regions, there's some locality issues that need to come up, that could impact, say, code, and services, GDPR in Europe is one, and even in Asia-specific, there's also some geopolitical things going on, and hackers, and malware out there, so you get security and whatnot. How should a company look at the region, and the multi-region approach on each cloud? Which, again, is complicated, is even more complicated when you do that across multiple clouds. That's the future that's coming down the street very fast. What's your view on that? >> So, there is a lot of buzz around this, a lot of things being proposed. I think people need to take a more nuanced look at this, compared to some of the things I see out there, where speed of light is an issue, especially when dealing with multiple regions. So either we architect applications correctly to be able to handle that, and sometimes again, some of these newer cloud-native data stores have the ability to hide some of that performance gap in there, but overall, when we look into architecting things, this is about how do you deploy different application stacks at different clusters, and maybe use global load balancing to, you know, shard across them, as an example. But we see a number of newer emerging patterns of building applications that's making it much more feasible to do as things go over. So I do not think enterprises should be scared into adopting some of these approaches. I think multi-region within the same cloud provider is definitely the first thing people should try, and then moving out across, which is again, the adoption pattern we see within the enterprises we work with. >> So, let's talk about the entrepreneurial journey of your company, obviously, you're the co-founder. You're in an environment now where it's been pretty brutal, and you can almost see a lot of trends really jumping out now. And we've been doing theCUBE, on our 10th year at SiliconANGLE, doing our 9th year at theCUBE, and I've covered all those companies that were formed before 2012, go big or go home. A lot of them, that was pre-cloud. If you think about it, they didn't have, they didn't see the visibility, mocking Amazon, or using Amazon, didn't see Amazon, and now the cloud has that disruptive of an enabler. So the wave is getting sucked out with the big tsunami coming, so it exposes that water that now is, you see all the clams and crabs running around. What's different? I mean, 'cause now you can get things faster done, you got nine people. A lot of entrepreneurs are trying to crack the code of how to be successful in this environment. With cloud, with data, new dynamics, never seen before. >> Yep, so I think from the entrepreneurial side of things, the thing I would recommend wisest to figure out what is the unfair advantage that small things have, there's always this challenge, right? This is equal in five, eight years ago, people would say what if Google did this, and before this, what if Microsoft did this? I think, where does the unfair advantage for small companies come from in these environments? Now a traditional go big or go home approach doesn't work anymore. What we have found, a lot of success with this, concentrating very hard on customer needs and their pain points. Before a first line of code was written, we really spoke to customers to say, what are your pain points? And that's when we also started latching onto this multi-cloud thing, where generally we see a lot of solutions working, being provided by some of these cloud providers, but they're tailored for the particular cloud. They do not fit the enterprise model of working across different providers, so helping with that pain point, helping with the portability has been really good for us in particular. But it's also, I do not treat public clouds as competition, I do look at them as partners, because I think there is a win-win situation. We've been very, very happy with some of the conversations we've had with some of the bigger cloud providers out there, we have joint customers, things of that nature, and that has been very successful in terms of that operating model, because I think, a lot of people realize this is not a zero sum game. If you're looking at just on-prem environments, it's less than a zero sum game these days, but being a part of a rapidly expanding system, I think the pie is growing larger, and I think there are less incentives to be seen as strictly competitive, vs a partnership play there. >> Well, great to chat with you, I wanted to get your perspective, because yeah, I think it's completely changed, it's interesting, but as an entrepreneur now, you optimize for something different, so it sounds like a lot of product management going on, really early, really fast, a lot of iteration. You're funded by Angels and friends in the network, so you have a good advisory funders, or backers, and three, the role of the community. These are new dynamics that are accelerated in the front end, all kind of going on at the same time. Just react to that, and share what you think of that, those dynamics, any examples, do you agree with it? And how important are they? >> So let's see, I think, in particular, community is one of the most important things. And it's not just paying lip service to that. But I believe the community has been very empowering for the end user, the developers, people everyone really cares about. It definitely impacts us, as to how we build for it, you know, having empathy for other people. A lot of those things make a very significant difference, and community is something we start thinking of first. And even when we were in start, we wanted to make sure that no matter what we did was... >> Define community, open source community, customer community, peers? >> There's a strong overlap between those things right now, right? Our peers are colleagues at different companies, trying to tackle the same space, a part of of the open source community, a part of the cloud-native community. So I think when you look at the Venn diagram, there's actually a very large intersection in the middle, so all of those really are more, have come together a lot closer than they used to be a few years ago, where open source was different from commercial vendors, now there's a very strong mixing, and the thing is, how do we move the community forward? And that's also how we think about things here. And so that's a very big thing. The support system around you, and in particular, it's amazing in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, I've known people working in different places trying to get a company off the ground, the support system is amazing, and not just from our investors, but the number of people that have no financial ties to us, have no vested interests in us, that benefit and help we've gotten from them, has been amazing, off the charts. >> Well, I got to ask you, Niraj, Silicon Valley is supposed be like the cesspool, it's the worst place on the planet, it's evil. You're obviously an example of what's going good in Silicon Valley. Share, in your opinion, if people asked you, hey, what's going in Silicon Valley these days? Is action happening there, and what's it like there? >> So, it's a good point to make. We see a lot of stuff in the press, and a lot of the articles are not complimentary. And I'm not trying to say that those aren't real problems, but I'm very glad that we are talking about those problems, and we're diving into this, and we're making sure that the next generation of companies that emerge hopefully do not suffer from that. We care a lot about that at Kasten, we've build a very diverse team, even though it's small right now, people that are underrepresented, and I've always had that history of doing that, even in the previous groups I've led. Because it creates a stronger team. So I see people, more people being aware of the challenges we face, and we are working together to also solve and address some of this. So it's one of those things where you can't throw the baby with the bathwater, but we have to figure out what's wrong, what isn't working, go work on fixing that, while retaining the things that have given the Valley a unique edge, and I'm very proud of being a part of that generation. >> You can lead by example, rather than being a social justice warrior, throwing mud around, and now seeing highlighting what everyone already knows, of being aware of it, something that we've been promoting. And it's also, too, humanizing, making it human, and having proper conversations, rather than people putting their head in the sand, or running from it. >> Exactly. >> Running from these problems, okay, so I got to ask you, on a personal question, we're kind of older, you're a lot younger than I am, obviously you can tell that difference, but there's a lot of great young guns coming up. Men, women, all kinds of great talent, they're coming in, they don't know what local host is. They don't even know what, they've never installed a patch. A new set of programmers, developers, artists, creatives are coming into the software business, changing the game, because it's really interesting, dev ops is happening. What's that culture look like, in your observation, when you recruit people, when you talk to people, what are these young developers interested in, and what are they good at, what are they gravitating towards? What are some of the observations you can share? >> So sometimes, there's an overlap between young developers and millennials, and sometimes I believe millennials get a bad rap. When working with this community, I see a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of passion, a lot of ambition. I see a lot of community-driven stuff, they care about how they make an impact outside of the particular role they're playing. And I think those are all things that it makes sense for companies to help enable, as well as leverage. So when we see these new breed of developers coming in, I think it's about, if someone doesn't want them, please send them my way, more than happy to take them, because they're just so passionate about getting stuff done. >> What are they coding, what languages? Can they write C, can they write lines of C? Are they writing in C, or what language they program in? >> So do we. We look at it as a problem is I think programming language is a secondary. They worry about what does it take to get the job done. >> So they're adaptive. >> Exactly. So when you talk about just because they don't know what local host means today doesn't mean they can't pick it up if they discover they need to figure that out, as an example. So, sometimes they'll come at it with other high languages focus, but then they will quickly adapt to either new different styles they really want to learn to, or they'll adapt to a new programming languages. So if I give you an example, in our company, we use Go as an example, it's very popular, especially for doing application infrastructure focused stuff, but the majority of people, when they came in, did not know Go, as an example. I think maybe one person is really well-versed with it, and the rest of the people just picked it up, because it's the right tool for the job. >> They learn, they learn the basic data structure, they can jump in, it seems to be something that they pride themselves on. Be multi-code, multi-coders. Alright, another personal question for you, to end the segment. If you could talk to your 23-year-old self now, if you were 23 now, knowing what you know, what would you tell yourself right now, as motivation, observations, rules of the road, how to be successful, what would you say to your own 23-year-old self who is coding away all those great opportunities. >> Oh, I know very well what I would tell my 23-year-old person, because I've learned it the hard way. So, I came out with a strong technical background, but I think what I'd tell my 23-year-old is concentrate on two things. That is concentrate on the soft skills, which will really, really help in terms of making a greater impact on people around you, on the industry no matter what it is. Involves things like communication, leadership, we've talked about community, so the soft skills that help you leverage that. And optimize for growth. That is, and this is something people sometimes tend to... >> Personal growth. >> Personal growth in particular, where people tend to fool themselves, where they get comfortable in a place, and they're like, yeah, I'm learning, but in reality, I think taking more risks, taking more chances, making sure an environment that you can learn from people, and this is not about small company, this is large company here, just to make it very clear. >> Always be learning. >> Yes, always be learning. And I think those are the two concrete things I would tell myself. I would also tell myself to move to the Bay Area, but I already did that. (laughs) Because of just, it's being in the technology service. >> And raising money, what would your advice be to yourself? Obviously you're doing a good job right now, but. >> So raising money, start five years before you want to go raise money. You don't want to show up at someone's door and ask for money, and that be the first time you interact with them, because, and this is about being genuine, this is about being authentic, but it is about making sure you build those relationships. People have a chance to know you, people have a chance to see what you've done. And being a part of that ecosystem, I think, will really help when it actually comes down to you wanting to do something, and that has really helped me. >> Yeah, the other advice we hear a lot, in theCUBE is, the successful entrepreneurs have paid it forward. >> Yes. >> They always are giving back, and always be learning. Great to have you on theCUBE, Niraj Tolia, co-founder and CEO of Kasten, hot new start-up. You're getting a new round of funding, what's happening? You want to announce that here, or is that happening? >> We'll talk again in a few months from now, thank you. >> I'm sure you got a lot of VCs now, you're going to do a great success on the hot space. Cloud-native, it's the hottest market in cloud computing, as we all know what's going on in cloud, that is really, really shaping up to be a really, really big market. Real impact across the board, from data analytics, application development, down to the infrastructure. And creating new opportunities for wealth creation, and innovation, and invention, and AI, entertainment, you name it, it's happening. It's theCUBE. Conversation here in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching.

this is the cute live from the Moscone Center in San Francisco this is silicon angles continuous coverage a vm world 2010 now inside the cube we're back to continuous coverage of vm world 2010 live I'm John Ferrier from SiliconANGLE we are in the cube the cube is a broad social media broadcast that acquires knowledge and this segment is going to be very fun we have a group of entrepreneurs part of the cloud computing club that I'm proud to say that I was one of the cofounders of with Nate DeMarco and James waters and these guys have been in the trenches from cloud from the beginning and like to introduce to my left is rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias so these guys are entrepreneurs they've been out in the field ton of experience in the business cloud has arrived they were there at the beginning so we're going to share our experiences about why the cloud is so big and relevant and entrepreneurship what are the opportunities for startups because there is a lot of opportunity vmware is putting forth the framework that is going to enable a lot of growth and we heard from todd nielsen that for every dollar of vmware licenses may be about fifteen dollars of ecosystem money so that that's money and the VC panel we had here on Wednesday was talking about huge dollars going into cloud so we're gonna get the reality of kind of what's real some proof points and so the first question will go right down the line will start with rich what is the reality of cloud and just at a high level the entrepreneurial opportunities it's a shift it's big it's relevant is happening right now and we're on the scene here at Moscone well there are two there are two baskets as i see it entrepreneurially you're looking at cloud backward taking what's existing a lot of legacy stuff making it work appropriately making it work the way you'd like it to work in a cloud getting all the benefits then huge entrepreneurial opportunities cloud forward building new apps green field all things web web app looking at this as a you know doing new things not trying to repeat the old and if you drop them into those two categories Enterprise is paying first for the legacy but where the the real fun is and where the entrepreneurs really start to kind of converge is on the cloud forward stuff cloud for a great message good angle there Bernard what's your angle on this well we we see a lot going on in apps I was in a breakfast this morning basically the whole message the whole theme was apps kind of driving everything which is interesting because kind of change from a lot of IT organizations traditionally been very infrastructure focused so a lot of stuff around apps and stuff that helps apps the other thing that came out of that breakfast was a lot about cloud management how do you manage these environments how do you manage a lot of discussion about end-to-end management instead of siloed management for sure there's great opportunity there I don't know how to solve the problem with this great opportunity around that Randy you're Randy you got a growing business right now you started as an entrepreneur and you grew a business you're growing like crazy you're at you're on the doorstep of all the cloud scaling cloud scaling calm is your organization talk about your experience and what you see going forward vast majority the wisdom transition look at our engagements were basically they're really looking at ways to generate I think sort of continued consolidation business so the ecosystem is growing there's a lot of people out there in the trenches deploying as vmware change with this vm world this week I mean what's different and what are you guys seeing from your customers and prospective customers in the environment out there and what are the key issues holding things back or what are the key issues that are going to accelerate real cloud deployments and and and cloud service providers are part of this show too and that's a new dynamic we're seeing well one of the things that's pretty obvious about this show and kind of you could almost draw a bright line over the course of the last year or 18 months is that now we're no longer talking as much about infrastructure getting that right whether it's in the public cloud or in the enterprise today we're talking about platform and not so much platform as a service but here what you're looking at is the constructor construction kits the piece parts by which you start putting together platforms and then specific software applications that are cloud oriented this show and both the influence of spring vfabric all of that the cloud the director all of that starting to look at moving up the food chain much more about platform much more about the construction of applications on a scale of one to ten rich real deal ten being real deal with the spring source framework or zero non-starter spring oh that it's already in the bag it's it is done deal this is a real deal what we have here is the beginnings of truly platforms whether they're built inside the the enterprise or platforms as a service the construction kits for real applications absolutely Bernard hyper Stratus you're out talking to customers all the time and they got challenges said walk through some of your experiences with your clients and the marketplace well what I'll say is that what we hear about a lot what we work on a lot is security a lot of companies saying how do I secure my app particularly in a public cloud environment what do we do around that something that's a kind of a second order is we get called in a lot with companies say I put my app application up in a public cloud and the magic supposed to be that's scalable how come my apps not scaling and then we end up doing a lot of architecture re working so I think architecture is a big deal this is a if you want to take advantage of cloud computing characteristics your application must be ready to do that so I think that's that's the true drill down on the architecture thing that's not scaling thing just expand on that a little bit well what are the issues there well you know the vision is somehow automatically load goes up and the application star spawns at extra resources extra instances in the past the way that happened was you maybe had to provision hardware and then admin had to sort of go in and reconfigure everything the application that we brought down brought back up if you want to move that from a hands-on thing to an auto magically kind of thing your application has to be written such that it can gracefully add and subtract resources you have to have a management framework that supports that and you know those are new kinds of things basically because the old model was very static very hands-on so those kinds of challenges or concerns that we run into a lot Randy you're getting your hands dirty out there are you stitching all these things together and and you got a lot of successes talk about your experiences and you know things you've learned that were surprises and things that were not surprises and and challenge is going to going forward optimization the true pioneers in cloud computing their folks like Amazon and Google and what they have really pioneered is operating in massive scale I mean movie from enterprise computing cloud computing is like moving from the assembly line mechanism for manufacturing cars to the robotics factory mechanism for manufacturing cars it's very very different if you actually look in Amazon at Amazon's operations team there's two core components infrastructure engineering which writes software that automates hardware and data center operations which changes out the hardware and there's nobody in between just like in a robotics factory for cars you have people who design the robotics in the factory and you have the people who do QA on the line and meet and do maintenance on the robots and there's really nobody in between and so that when you go and you look at these guys and what that means and you talk about scalability like Bernards talking about you'll notice that somebody like Google has a huge number of sort of horizontal services something like Google FS or big table and MapReduce which are sort of these horizontal services across the entire data center that every single application leverages and that's how a single application for google is able to get skill but when you look into an enterprise data center every single application is its own silo sometimes all the way through it down through the network in the storage and that's why that's part of the reason why it's difficult to scale there are also application architectural constraints of course which and you know somebody like Bernard can help you out with but you know the fundamental way that you're actually designing the data center and how you provide horizontal services it was also what's going to enable true platform as a service to work on top of any infrastructure as a service so if you if you kind of ignore one to the detriment together if you don't build the infrastructure as a service right with those horizontal service layers then you can't really do the rest of the job we had we had the cube down in orlando for SI p event we had the cio of levi strauss tom peck on and one of the things that came out of that conversation randy was busting down the silos and he absolutely saying you know from his organization sample he wants to bus down those silos what can you share I mean you're in there you're busting down silos with your team what's what's the team configuration like what's the dynamic and just what are some of the conversations that you have I mean people like hey we love you and all sudden we can't do that I mean we've talked at the cloud clubs about yeah some of the politics and is it just riff on that a little bit it's gonna be scary you sure you want me to go there yeah go ahead we bring it out on the cube in our most successful engagements we basically sidelined the CIO and his entire stack because they wanted to do Enterprise competing with a cloud label on top of it instead of real cloud computing and they were obstructionist and they did not know how to decide eyes themselves I mean if you think about it Enterprise IT has a centralized department has has effectively been a monopoly inside of that each of those enterprises for 30 years and they do not understand how to fix their own Monopoly and the only way that you break down a monopoly is through competition and through funding those successful competitors that's part of why you see salesforce com being so successful marketplace their core competition for the longest time was internal implementations a CRM and so if you really want to build the real deal cloud today you've either got to have a CIO who's a visionary and is willing to make significant dramatic changes to the organization or you have to sideline the CIO and a stack and you actually have to go rogue and you have to build out a whole separate cloud division build out true cloud computing there and then somehow roll that back in or roll IT under it at a later date how do entrepreneurs out there learn from that so what would you share aussie sideline the CIO is always kind of a robe it's not a real long term strategy but you know you want to get the CIO there but what you're basically saying is is that CIOs are doing it because they're bunder pressure CFO cio is under pressure and the saying you just do cloud and they want to go cloud but the monopoly if you will kind of like an old mainframe mindset is pushing back and what they'll do is they'll throw some cloud out there and call it cloud right is that what you saying and they're not really doing real clout is that what you're saying I'm saying that just running just providing virtual servers on demand is not a cloud and if you look at the bar that in Amazon or Google or the pioneers in cloud or set it's about very low friction self-service IT capabilities which can only be delivered through automation and you know i'll tell you a brief story about a colleague of mine who's now at VMware and I want to mention name he was at credit suisse they built one of the first real deal clouds there five years ago and as soon as they had it up as saucers portal in UI and API and everything soon as they brought it up they put in a ticket wall because the IT support staff felt threatened that people could turn on their own servers and they didn't want them to so they said fill out a ticket and then we'll use your password and you hurt me and your credentials to turn on a server for you so that that's the sort of mindset facade was needed to keep the heat shield almost from the attacks right from the sabotage that was yet it's not so much sabotage it's you know any organization that builds up is going to send out the antibodies when ever you put something really distinctive and new in it and to Randy's point and actually to Barnard's about architecture if you try to take the way things have been built up until now and just drop them into a set of virtualized servers and say that's cloud it isn't it's basically taking a and creating a virtual version of your old data center that's not going to get you where you want to go okay so so play out how you think it's going to go down you guys think it's gonna be organically bottom-up or top down or both I mean how is this goes like client-server kind of evolved that way you know some pcs were hanging around lands came around so is it going to be a slow roll can or Big Bang I was a very interesting I heard a guy from Forrester this morning talked and he said and if you might know Forrester came out with a report not too long ago that was something like building your own private cloud it's a pipe dream or is it like it's much harder than you might expect and the interesting stat that he came out with was if you ask enterprise developers something like twenty five percent of them are doing cloud-based stuff typically an Amazon if you go to the infrastructure group something like six percent of them say oh yeah we're doing something around cloud and that told me two things one there's a lot of stuff going on that is stealthy or semi stealthy and the second is there's a big bow wave of stuff that's being done up in some public provider that's going to somehow go into production and I don't that going to go in production that public provider or if eventually the development team is going to come back to the ops team and say I've got a gift for you I'd like you to start running it and by the way it's designed as a cloud its architects as a cloud and you need to have the infrastructure to support them so it's ready you open the open the president I happen to have a cloud right here is that way well so it's a very part of me that was a very interesting set of stats because that implies there's a lot of impending change kept going coming down the road toward internal IT groups well we've talked about bursting out you know taking the enterprise and bursting out to the cloud a lot of the app development a lot of the the pre-production versions of these apps exist in the cloud and what's going to happen is as soon as you open the door and people are feeling safe enough it's going to be inbound not bursting out it's going to be bursting in Randy one of the one of the things I'm hearing is that data security is the number one issue around cloud can you talk a little bit about that from your experience so I is that true or is it not true I think it's a little overblown I mean security is definitely a concern I mean it would be you would be foolish not to be concerned about it but I think you are going to take the same steps you would if you are going to use now its source data center facility managed hosting I mean it's not there I think one of the things that's really humorous about this is people get really worried about the hypervisor when the hypervisors are relatively proven relatively secure technology but then they ignore things like vlans which are completely unauthenticated and everybody assumes are secure but in actually a cloud environment they're far less secure so there's there's a weird disconnect between what is a real security issue in the cloud and what people's concerns are because they don't understand the underlying technologies or structure so much and then when you look at some of the folks who are building certain offerings there are kind of on demand private cloud offerings that people are working on we're not going to share your server and pretty much all those issues go away and so it's just it's really it it's not some things have changed most of remain the same if you if you take your scent your same kinds of what that you go about enforcing security today behind the firewall and bring them out to the cloud they mostly translate actually and not to confuse the issue you've got security and then you've got the pragmatic issues of compliance most of these people most of these organizations live under a cloud you'll pardon the expression which is their requirement to be compliant with various kinds of regulation whether it's defined by the industry by the enterprise regulatory and being compliant means hitting the checklist those checklists have been built on the back of last generations architectures last generations technologies how do you determine whether a cloud implementation of a production app is compliant these guys are very conservative if there's any risk of not meeting compliance well that's a big message out your way that was a big message here for VMware in this hybrid cloud was that compliance is was one of the things that they were wrapping around that I mean is that a real deal is that going to be good is that going to be no thank you i think compliance has to change not so much the technology i mean really what do we think is is valid and all of these aspects of compliance have got to be revisited so I was doing security before a lot of the regulations went in for compliance and in the early days kind of mid 90s and the focus was around actually building secure systems and there's a certain amount of best practices that came out of that and then those were codified into a lot of the regulations and those those codifications of those best practices are about 10 or 15 years old a lot of the time and so the way that they don't translate to the cloud is if you just take them you know peace if you just say look we have to have a perimeter firewall you're on a cloud where are you going to put your perimeter firewall right no parameter right but you know should you have host-based firewall should you have an intrusion detection yet all of that trans the problem is is that you have to you know we've been moving away from a perimeter eyes dworld for 15-plus years but you still see a lot of organization security organizations that don't know how to provide real deal security you know clinging to what's easiest as opposed to trying to figure out what is real security how does that mesh with the compliance requirements they have and coming up with a strategy then that melds those two and most of those strategies will actually translate directly to the cloud because it's about bringing the security closer to the data absolutely one of the things that's happening here guys is cloud service providers are very visible in the announcements and it's-- changing and that IT can provide the kinds of services that cloud service providers can provide and dave vellante Wikibon and i were talking about well that might not be true that cloud surprise will always stay at a bit of head we had verizon on yesterday talking about some of their things is the cloud service provider model going to be a head of IT and will that be the security compliance component of IT how do you guys see the whole cloud service provider evolving all the above observations predictions it to believe that somebody like Verizon is at the leading edge of winning God services is but I don't want to dig on them too much but it is it makes sense if you if you actually look at the leader that's amazon and in 2009 amazon had 43 major releases for per month who can keep up with that pace right Google Yahoo maybe Microsoft but certainly not any of the major telcos service riders are not geared up to be software development or featured delivery shops and the same can be said of most IT department so you look at any of these projects as being you know two to three-year kinds of engagements that you know they're going to do six to nine months of due diligence on in our engagement and with the largest telco in Korea one of the largest in asia pac we stood up their private cloud in eight weeks eight weeks soup to nuts so so what's the prediction on the viability and position of the product the answers providers they you guys have to get in the game they've got they've got to build out more capabilities and they've got to stop worrying about the virtualization piece which is trivial and start thinking about the portfolio services that run on top of that platform is a surface ice cream mobile device offerings integration to 3g and wireless systems enabling new mobile apps social media apps they've really got to think about how what's the new set of cloud applications that's driving Amazon to 80,000 servers and more than half a million VMs in four years time what is that I mean the enterprise is not adopting right now these guys are going to get in the game by actually going to where the fire is not where the smoke is and then they better actually build you know cloud class systems in the same way that Amazon or Google does and they've got have ecosystem of services that actually allows them to be competitive on a portfolio basis not on a virtual machine-based right and they'll probably really about that do you rain I don't feel strongly about it they'll they'll distinguish themselves on the basis of either markets they serve geographic markets industries or the collections of added value features that they lend us realized it okay final question to wrap up guys because I look at the clock a little bit long what is the outlook of cloud and just give your perspective you know just from your entrepreneurial position and also as a practitioner as a guru all of you guys are there in the trenches you're building businesses you're getting stuff done just share in your mind what this future will unroll to look like I mean will it really be game-changing what are some of the things that you may see which is a vision well if it already is a game change what the focus is right now for the next few years it's going to be all mm ops and apps I mean its operations making the management of the infrastructure work correctly and building the next generation but the cloud forward apps full stop Bernard where do you go from that I'm well or your perspective I mean you're there you're the thing that I that you know is there's no question my mind in five years or ten years we will look back on the way I T has been done with this kind of very manual very long time the way we look back on you know when you see a movie you see somebody hand crank in a car let's go absolutely no yeah that was quaint and that was good but there's a reason why we don't do it anyway dialing a phone and we're dialing a phone and so I for sure there's no question there's gonna be a lot of pain between now and your ex and that pain is going to be localized in two different groups but for sure this is this is the way I t's gonna be done in the future no question about that that this is the biggest disruption that there's been to the IT industry in 30 years and it will be a 20 year transition and if you look at how many mainframe companies are still standing in the same way that they were standing before you that just tells you the amount of opportunity there it is huge there are all kinds of ways for you to figure out parts of this this equation solutions for different parts of the problems here which are enormous is Bernard and rich can tell you I mean there's just a huge number of problems to solve here there's all kinds of clever ways that you can get in the game and you can be involved you could be part of the disruption rather than be part of the disrupted and that would be my key message disrupt don't be disrupted 30 years for disruption 20 years of growth will be covering it on cloud angle calm and SiliconANGLE com thanks guys so much rich Miller Bernard golden and Randy bias in the trenches true entrepreneurs been there done that from the beginning and now going to ride the wave so good luck with everything and we'll check back in with you thank you so much thanks John