(upbeat music) >> Hi, everybody. We're wrapping up day two of AWS Re:Inforce 2022. This is theCUBE, my name is Dave Vellante. And one of the folks that we featured, one of the companies that we featured in the AWS startup showcase season two, episode four, was Illumio. And of course their here at the security theme event. PJ Kerner is CTO and Co-Founder of Illumio. Great to see you, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> I always like to ask co-founders, people with co-founder in their titles, like go back to why you started the company. Let's go back to 2013. Why'd you start the company? >> Absolutely. Because back in 2013, one of the things that we sort of saw as technology trends, and it was mostly AWS was, there were really three things. One was dynamic workloads. People were putting workloads into production faster and faster. You talk about auto scale groups and now you talk about containers. Like things were getting faster and faster in terms of compute. Second thing was applications were getting more connected, right? The Netflix architecture is one define that kind of extreme example of hyper connectivity, but applications were, we'd call it the API economy or whatever, they were getting more connected. And the third problem back in 2013 was the problems around lateral movement. And at that point it was more around nation state actors and APTs that were in those environments for a lot of those customers. So those three trends were kind of, what do we need to do in security differently? And that's how Illumio started. >> So, okay, you say nation state that's obviously changed in the ROI of for hackers has become pretty good. And I guess your job is to reduce the ROI, but so what's the relationship PJ between the API economy, you talked about in that lateral movement? Are they kind of go hand in hand? >> They do. I think one thing that we have as a mission is, and I think it's really important to understand is to prevent breaches from becoming cyber disasters, right? And I use this metaphor around kind the submarine. And if you think about how submarines are built, submarines are built with water tight compartments inside the submarine. So when there is a physical breach, right, what happens? Like you get a torpedo or whatever, and it comes through the hall, you close off that compartment, there are redundant systems in place, but you close off that compartment, that one small thing you've lost, but the whole ship hasn't gone down and you sort of have survived. That's physical kind of resiliency and those same kind of techniques in terms of segmentation, compartmentalization inside your environments, is what makes good cyber resiliency. So prevent it from becoming a disaster. >> So you bring that micro segmentation analogy, the submarine analogy with micro segmentation to logical security, correct? >> Absolutely, yes. >> So that was your idea in 2013. Now we fast forward to 2022. It's no longer just nation states, things like ransomware are top of mind. I mean, everybody's like worried about what happened with solar winds and Log4j and on and on and on. So what's the mindset of the CISO today? >> I think you said it right. So ransomware, because if you think about the CIA triangle, confidentiality, integrity, availability, what does ransomware really does? It really attacks the availability problem, right? If you lock up all your laptops and can't actually do business anymore, you have an availability problem, right. They might not have stole your data, but they locked it up, but you can't do business, maybe you restore from backups. So that availability problem has made it more visible to CEOs and board level, like people. And so they've been talking about ransomware as a problem. And so that has given the CISO either more dollars, more authority to sort of attack that problem. And lateral movement is the primary way that ransomware gets around and becomes a disaster, as opposed to just locking up one machine when you lock up your entire environment, and thus some of the fear around colonial pipeline came in, that's when the disaster comes into play and you want to be avoiding that. >> Describe in more detail what you mean by lateral movement. I think it's implied, but you enter into a point and then instead of going, you're saying necessarily directly for the asset that you're going after, you're traversing the network, you're traversing other assets. Maybe you could describe that. >> Yeah, I mean, so often what happens is there's an initial point of breach. Like someone has a password or somebody clicked on a phishing link or something, and you have compromise into that environment, right? And then you might be compromised into a low level place that doesn't have a lot of data or is not worthwhile. Then you have to get from that place to data that is actually valuable, and that's where lateral movement comes into place. But also, I mean, you bring up a good point is like lateral movement prevention tools. Like, one way we've done some research around if you like, segmentation is, imagine putting up a maze inside your data center or cloud, right. So that, like how the attacker has to get from that initial breach to the crown jewels takes a lot longer when you have, a segmented environment, as opposed to, if you have a very flat network, it is just go from there to go find that asset. >> Hence, you just increase the denominator in the ROI equation and that just lowers the value for the hacker. They go elsewhere. >> It is an economic, you're right, it's all about economics. It's a time to target is what some our research like. So if you're a quick time to target, you're much easier to sort of get that value for the hacker. If it's a long time, they're going to get frustrated, they're going to stop and might not be economically viable. It's like the, you only have to run faster than the-- >> The two people with the bear chasing you, right. (laughs) Let's talk about zero trust. So it's a topic that prior to the pandemic, I think a lot of people thought it was a buzzword. I have said actually, it's become a mandate. Having said that others, I mean, AWS in particular kind of rolled their eyes and said, ah, we've always been zero trust. They were sort of forced into the discussion. What's your point of view on zero trust? Is it a buzzword? Does it have meaning, what is that meaning to Illumio? >> Well, for me there's actually two, there's two really important concepts. I mean, zero trust is a security philosophy. And so one is the idea of least privilege. And that's not a new idea. So when AWS says they've done it, they have embraced these privileges, a lot of good systems that have been built from scratch do, but not everybody has least privilege kind of controls everywhere. Secondly, least privilege is not about a one time thing. It is about a continuously monitoring. If you sort of take, people leave the company, applications get shut down. Like you need to shut down that access to actually continuously achieve that kind of least privilege stance. The other part that I think is really important that has come more recently is the assume breach mentality, right? And assume breach is something where you assume the attacker is, they've already clicked on, like stop trying to prevent. Well, I mean, you always still should probably prevent the people from clicking on the bad links, but from a security practitioner point of view, assume this has already happened, right. They're already inside. And then what do you have to do? Like back to what I was saying about setting up that maze ahead of time, right. To increase that time to target, that's something you have to do if you kind of assume breach and don't think, oh, a harder shell on my submarine is going to be the way I'm going to survive, right. So that mentality is, I will say is new and really important part of a zero trust philosophy. >> Yeah, so this is interesting because I mean, you kind of the old days, I don't know, decade plus ago, failure meant you get fired, breach meant you get fired. So we want to talk about it. And then of course that mentality had to change 'cause everybody's getting breached and this idea of least privilege. So in other words, if someone's not explicitly or a machine is not explicitly authorized to access an asset, they are not allowed, it's denied. So it's like Frank Slootman would say, if there's doubt, there's no doubt. And so is that right? >> It is. I mean, and if you think about it back to the disaster versus the breach, imagine they did get into an application. I mean, lamps stacks will have vulnerabilities from now to the end of time and people will get in. But what if you got in through a low value asset, 'cause these are some of the stories, you got in through a low value asset and you were sort of contained and you had access to that low value data. Let's say you even locked it up or you stole it all. Like it's not that important to the customer. That's different than when you pivot from that low value asset now into high value assets where it becomes much more catastrophic for those customers. So that kind of prevention, it is important. >> What do you make of this... Couple things, we've heard a lot about encrypt everything. It seems like these days again, in the old days, you'd love to encrypt everything, but there was always a performance hit, but we're hearing encrypt everything, John asked me the day John Furrier is like, okay, we're hearing about encrypting data at rest. What about data in motion? Now you hear about confidential computing and nitro and they're actually encrypting data in the flow. What do you make of that whole confidential computing down at the semiconductor level that they're actually doing things like enclaves and the arm architecture, how much of the problem does that address? How much does it still leave open? >> That's a hard question to answer-- >> But you're a CTO. So that's why I can ask you these questions. >> But I think it's the age old adage of defense in depth. I mean, I do think equivalent to what we're kind of doing from the networking point of view to do network segmentation. This is another layer of that compartmentalization and we'll sort of provide similar containment of breach. And that's really what we're looking for now, rather than prevention of the breach and rather than just detection of the breach, containment of that breach. >> Well, so it's actually similar philosophy brought to the wider network. >> Absolutely. And it needs to be brought at all levels. I think that's the, no one level is going to solve the problem. It's across all those levels is where you have to. >> What are the organizational implications of, it feels like the cloud is now becoming... I don't want to say the first layer of defense because it is if you're all in the cloud, but it's not, if you're a hybrid, but it's still, it's becoming increasingly a more important layer of defense. And then I feel like the CISO and the development team is like the next layer maybe audit is the third layer of defense. How are you seeing organizations sort of respond to that? The organizational roles changing, the CISO role changing. >> Well there's two good questions in there. So one is, there's one interesting thing that we are seeing about people. Like a lot of our customers are hybrid in their environment. They have a cloud, they have an on-prem environment and these two things need to work together. And in that case, I mean, the massive compute that you can be doing in the AWS actually increases the attack surface on that hybrid environment. So there's some challenges there and yes, you're absolutely right. The cloud brings some new tools to play, to sort of decrease that. But it's an interesting place we see where there's a attack surface that occurs between different infrastructure types, between AWS and on-prem of our environment. Now, the second part of your question was really around how the developers play into this. And I'm a big proponent of, I mean, security is kind of a team sport. And one of the things that we've done in some of our products is help people... So we all know the developers, like they know they're part of the security story, right? But they're not security professionals. They don't have all of the tools and all of the experience. And all of the red teaming time to sort of know where some of their mistakes might be made. So I am optimistic. They do their best, right. But what the security team needs is a way to not just tell them, like slap on the knuckles, like developer you're doing the wrong thing, but they really need a way to sort of say, okay, yes, you could do better. And here's some concrete ways that you can do better. So a lot of our systems kind of look at data, understand the data, analyze the data, and provide concrete recommendations. And there's a virtual cycle there. As long as you play the team sport, right. It's not a us versus them. It's like, how can we both win there? >> So this is a really interesting conversation because the developer all of a sudden is increasingly responsible for security. They got to worry about they're using containers. Now they got to worry about containers security. They got to worry about the run time. They got to worry about the platform. And to your point, it's like, okay, this burden is now on them. Not only do they have to be productive and produce awesome code, they got to make sure it's secure. So that role is changing. So are they up for the task? I mean, I got to believe that a lot of developers are like, oh, something else I have to worry about. So how are your customers resolving that? >> So I think they're up for the task. I think what is needed though, is a CISO and a security team again, who knows it's a team sport. Like some technologies adopted from the top down, like the CIO can say, here's what we're doing and then everybody has to do it. Some technologies adopted from the bottom up, right. It's where this individual team says, oh, we're using this thing and we're using these tools. Oh yeah, we're using containers and we're using this flavor of containers. And this other group uses Lambda services and so on. And the security team has to react because they can't mandate. They have to sort of work with those teams. So I see the best groups of people is where you have security teams who know they have to enable the developers and the developers who actually want to work with the security team. So it's the right kind of person, the right kind of CISO, right kind of security teams. It doesn't treat it as adversarial. And it works when they both work together. And that's where, your question is, how ingrained is that in the industry, that I can't say, but I know that does work. And I know that's the direction people are going. >> And I understand it's a spectrum, but I hear what you're saying. That is the best practice, the right organizational model, I guess it's cultural. I mean, it's not like there's some magic tool to make it all, the security team and the dev team collaboration tool, maybe there is, I don't know, but I think the mindset and the culture has to really be the starting point. >> Well, there is. I just talk about this idea. So however you sort of feel about DevOps and DevSecOps and so on, one core principle I see is really kind of empathy between like the developers and the operations folks, so the developers and the security team. And one way I actually, and we act like this at Illumio but one thing we do is like, you have to truly have empathy. You kind have to do somebody else's job, right. Not just like, think about it or talk about it, like do it. So there are places where the security team gets embedded deep in the organization where some of the developers get embedded in the operations work and that empathy. I know whether they go back to do what they were doing, what they learned about how the other side has to work. Some of the challenges, what they see is really valuable in sort of building that collaboration. >> So it's not job swapping, but it's embedding, is maybe how they gain that empathy. >> Exactly. And they're not experts in all those things, but do them take on those summer responsibilities, be accountable for some of those things. Now, not just do it on the side and go over somebody's shoulder, but like be accountable for something. >> That's interesting, not just observational, but actually say, okay, this is on you for some period of time. >> That is where you actually feel the pain of the other person, which is what is valuable. And so that's how you can build one of those cultures. I mean, you do need support all the way from the top, right. To be able to do that. >> For sure. And of course there are lightweight versions of that. Maybe if you don't have the stomach for... Lena Smart was on this morning, CISO of Mongo. And she was saying, she pairs like the security pros that can walk on water with the regular employees and they get to ask all these Colombo questions of the experts and the experts get to hear it and say, oh, I have to now explain this like I'm explaining it to a 10 year old, or maybe not a 10 year old, but a teenager, actually teenager's probably well ahead of us, but you know what I'm saying? And so that kind of cross correlation, and then essentially the folks that aren't security experts, they absorb enough and they can pass it on throughout the organization. And that's how she was saying she emphasizes culture building. >> And I will say, I think, Steve Smith, the CISO of AWS, like I've heard him talk a number of times and like, they do that here at like, they have some of the spirit and they've built it in and it's all the way from the top, right. And that's where if you have security over and a little silo off to the side, you're never going to do that. When the CEO supports the security professionals as a part of the business, that's when you can do the right thing. >> So you remember around the time that you and you guys started Illumio, the conversation was, security must be a board level topic. Yes, it should be, is it really, it was becoming that way. It wasn't there yet. It clearly is now, there's no question about it. >> No, ransomware. >> Right, of course. >> Let's thank ransomware. >> Right. Thank you. Maybe that's a silver lining. Now, the conversation is around, is it a organizational wide issue? And it needs to be, it needs to be, but it really isn't fully. I mean, how many organizations actually do that type of training, certainly large organizations do. It's part of the onboarding process, but even small companies are starting to do that now saying, okay, as part of the onboarding process, you got to watch this training video and sure that you've done it. And maybe that's not enough, but it's a start. >> Well, and I do think that's where, if we get back to zero trust, I mean, zero trust being a philosophy that you can adopt. I mean, we apply that kind of least privilege model to everything. And when people know that people know that this is something we do, right. That you only get access to things 'cause least privileges, you get access to absolutely to the things you need to do your job, but nothing more. And that applies to everybody in the organization. And when people sort of know this is the culture and they sort of work by that, like zero trust being that philosophy sort of helps infuse it into the organization. >> I agree with that, but I think the hard part of that in terms of implementing it for organizations is, companies like AWS, they have the tools, the people, the practitioners that can bring that to bear, many organizations don't. So it becomes an important prioritization exercise. So they have to say, okay, where do we want to apply that least privilege and apply that technology? 'Cause we don't have the resources to do it across the entire portfolio. >> And I'll give you a simple example of where it'll fail. So let's say, oh, we're least privilege, right. And so you asked for something to do your job and it takes four weeks for you to get that access. Guess what? Zero trust out the door at that organization. If you don't have again, the tools, right. To be able to walk that walk. And so it is something where you can't just say it, right. You do have to do it. >> So I feel like it's pyramid. It's got to start. I think it's got to be top down. Maybe not, I mean certainly bottom up from the developer mindset. No question about that. But in terms of where you start. Whether it's financial data or other confidential data, great. We're going to apply that here and we're not going to necessarily, it's a balance, where's the risk? Go hard on those places where there's the biggest risk. Maybe not create organizational friction where there's less risk and then over time, bring that in. >> And I think, I'll say one of the failure modes that we sort of seen around zero trust, if you go too big, too early, right. You actually have to find small wins in your organization and you pointed out some good ones. So focus on like, if you know where critical assets are, that's a good place to sort of start. Building it into the business as usual. So for example, one thing we recommend is people start in the developing zero trust segmentation policy during the development, or at least the test phase of rolling out a new application as you sort of work your way into production, as opposed to having to retro segment everything. So get it into the culture, either high value assets or work like that, or just pick something small. We've actually seen customers use our software to sort of like lock down RDP like back to ransomware, loves RDP lateral movement. So why can we go everywhere to everywhere with RDP? Well, you need it to sort of solve some problems, but just focus on that one little slice of your environment, one application and lock that down. That's a way to get started and that sort of attacks the ransomware problem. So there's lots of ways, but you got to make some demonstrable first steps and build that momentum over time to sort of get to that ultimate end goal. >> PJ Illumio has always been a thought leader in security generally in this topic specifically. So thanks for coming back on theCUBE. It's always great to have you guys. >> All right. Thanks, been great. >> All right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Inforce 2022 from Boston. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel and AWS. >>Welcome back to the cubes live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm Lisa Martin and I have with me a cube alumni back, please. Welcome Scott Mullins, the worldwide financial services business development leader at AWS. Scott. Welcome back. Great to have you joining us, >>Lisa. It's great to be back on the cube and to be visiting with you today from virtual re-invent 2020. >>Yes. Reinventing reinvent. The last show that I got to host in-person for the cube was reinvent last year. And here we have this three week virtual event that started last week. So lots more even going on. I think I even saw a hundred thousand or so registered, so massive event, lots of news. So walk us through some of the highlights that have been announced at reinvent this year and some of the things that you're seeing the most interest from customers in. >>Well, I think one of the big highlights is 500,000 registrants that are reinvented 50,000 attendees last year to reinvent or 50,000 or so to 500,000 re registered for the event. So that's, that's, that's worth talking about in its own. Right. But I think, you know, one of the things, and you mentioned this, you know, more re-invent three weeks, uh, this year, as opposed to the four days that we normally spend in Las Vegas together, physically, when you do, when you do it digitally, you have the ability to actually include more things and more leaders talking about things. And so when we think about the announcements that are having impacts, uh, with financial services customers specifically I'd point to a couple of things and, you know, they're obviously gonna mention Andy's keynote, but there's going to be some things that you might go wait a minute. >>I didn't even see that announcement. Uh, and then maybe I could point you and the viewers to some other, other, um, keynotes or some other sessions that were announced. So obviously I think, uh, first and foremost in Andy's keynote, uh, hybrid, uh, was something that was a very, uh, big focus for him and I for a very long time, we've had the messaging of the right tool for the right job when it comes to any of your services. I think you could alter that today to say it's the right tool for the right job at the right time and in the right place. That makes sense for you and especially for financial institutions. Um, you could look at the announcements around containers, the announcements around Amazon EKS, distro, Amazon EKS, anywhere, and then also Amazon ECS anywhere, which allows our customers to actually, uh, put AWS container technology anywhere they would like to put it. >>You could look also at the additions of the one you and two you form factors to outposts. So no longer do you have to do the, the, the large for you, uh, foreign factor for outposts, smaller outposts for smaller spaces, uh, that particular will play well in the financial service industry. You may not have necessarily as much room for a full cabinet. You could also look from the hybrid perspective in the announcement we made, um, around red hat OpenShift on AWS, all of are giving customers the ability to choose how they actually want to deploy, um, and pursue a hybrid. I'd also point to some announcements we made around management and governance in the financial services, industry governance, uh, is a very important topic. Uh, we announced the management and government lens for the AWS well architected, um, uh, program, uh, that is focused on breath practices for evolving governance for the cloud. >>It has recommended combination of AWS services integrations with our partner network and vetted reference architectures and guidance for addressing regulatory obligations as well. I'd also point to some things we made around audits. I was specifically in Steve Smith's, um, session today, he talked about AWS audit manager. That's a new tool for continually assessing areas and environments for controls or risk compliance. That includes prebuilt compliance frameworks for things like PCI DSS and GDPR, uh, two things that are very important in the financial services industry and last, but certainly not least I'd point to the announcement around the AWS audit Academy. This is training for auditors to actually be able to audit clouds from an agnostic perspective. Any cloud, not specifically AWS that's tree, uh, digital training to do that. And then also an instructor led course specifically on how to audit AWS. So some very key announcements, both from the standpoint of services, uh, as well as additional layers of helping customers in the financial services industry in regulated industries actually use our services. >>So typical, re-invent typical in a lot of news, a lot of announcements, the 500,000 Mark in terms of registering. I hadn't heard that. That's amazing. Let's talk that this has been an Andy. Jassy had an exclusive with John furrier just a couple of weeks ago before. I think it was last week, actually. And we've been talking about this acceleration of digital business transformation because of COVID we've been talking about it, the entire pandemic on the virtual cube, talking about how companies it's really about right now, surviving and thriving to be able to go forward and companies that haven't accelerated are probably in some trouble. Talk to me about how AWS has been working with your financial services customers to help them pivot and move to the cloud faster, really to not just help them survive now, but thrive in the long-term. >>Yeah. Immediately when COVID hit and it hit at different times in different, in different parts of the world. Immediately when COVID hit, we saw the conversation that we were having turning from, Hey, what's my digital strategy to immediately, what are my digital capabilities? And what that really means is what do I have the ability to do tomorrow? Because tomorrow is going to really matter. I don't have necessarily the time to plan for the next several quarters or the next several years, what can I do tomorrow to, um, really, uh, support my, my own workforce and support my own customers and the obligations I have as a financial institution. The first thing we saw people do was to try and make sure that those who financial services work can work. You can look at the adoption of Amazon workspaces, as well as our, uh, Amazon connect, uh, call centers as a service. >>As two examples there at the RBL bank in India was able to move to Amazon workspaces in just 10 days to enable its teams to actually work remotely from home. When they couldn't come into the office, you can look at Barclays. Barclays is actually a presenter at re-invent this year. They'll have a session on how they use Amazon connect, which again is our call center as a service offering to enable 25,000 contacts and our agents to work from home when they can no longer work out of the, out of their traditional contact center. The second thing we saw a financial institutions joining was making sure that customer engagements could still be meaningful when digital was the only option, um, specifically here in the U S you could look at the work that each of us did with FinTech companies like biz two X or fins Zack, or BlueVine Stripe and cabbage in support of the care act in the U S you might remember that the cares act, um, hasn't provisions for funding for small businesses. >>This small business administration had a program called the paycheck protection program, and those organizations were active in providing funding, uh, to small businesses. Uh, through that program. I'll give you an example of cabbage cabbage had previously not been an SBA lender, um, but they were able to, in two weeks build a fully automated system for small businesses to access PPP funding using Amazon text track, to extract information from documentation that those folks submitted to get alone. That reduced approval times from multiple days to about a median of four hours to actually get approval, to get funding through the PPP program. And then just four months cabbage became the second largest PPP lender. They lent over $7 billion in funding, which was twice the amount of funding that they went last year in 2019 loans. So we were happy to support organizations like cabbage and those other FinTech companies, as they help small businesses in the U S get access to funding, uh, during this critical time. >>And as we know, as you said, critical time, but really life or death for a lot of businesses. And as we continue to go through these ways, but it's interesting that you talked about that the speed of facilitation that during such unprecedented times, AWS and this massive machine was able to continue moving at full speed ahead and helping those customers to pivot. You talked about the cloud connect. I had a conversation with a guest on the queue last week about that. And, and I now think about if I have to call in a contact center and that person might be from home. So, you know, we're fortunate that the cloud computing technology and people like you and AWS, or are able to power that because it's, it's literally essential, which is probably one of the words of the year, but being able to keep the machinery going and innovate at the same time has been, make or break for a lot of businesses. >>Absolutely. And you, you look at, you know, kind of one of the last year is that I'll point to is, um, financial institutions. Uh, anti-virus, we're were very much focused on making sure that that cannot fail, that they scaled. And so you can look at the work we did with, uh, with the, with FINRA FINRA is the primary capital markets regulator here in the U S and on a daily basis frame or processes about 400 billion market events on every night to do surveillance on our markets, that when COVID hit, we had unprecedented volume and volatility in the market. And FINRA was, was, um, looking at processing, uh, anywhere from two to three times, their normal daily market volumes that's anywhere from 800 billion market events to 1.2 trillion a night. And if you look at how they were able to scale, they're actually able to scale up compute resources in AWS. We're on a nightly basis. They're able to automatically turn on and off up to a hundred thousand compute nodes in a single day. That automatic ability to scale is, is the power you're talking about. Being able to actually turn things up when you needed it and turn things down when you, when you don't need it based on the volumes. >>Well, and that's going to be something key going forward. As we know that there will be one thing I think that I always say we can count on right now is uncertainty and continued uncertainty, but we've also seen I'm calling them COVID catalysts. You know, the, what you talked about with cabbage, for example, and how that business pivoted quickly, because of the power of cloud computing and emerging technologies, what are some of the things that you think as we go into 2021 in the financial services arena, what are some of the big tech trends that you think were maybe born during COVID that are going to be critical going forward? >>Well, you know, you, you, you had Melanie Frank from capital one on cube a couple of days ago, and she was talking about, you know, their shift to cloud and what that's really enabled, and it, and she kind of sums it up nicely. She says, look, we want to give our customers experience that are real time, and that are intelligent. And you just can't do that with legacy technology. That's sitting in, you know, kind of a legacy data center. And so I think that's going to be kind of the, the, the all encompassing statement for what's happening in the financial services industry. As I mentioned, you know, organizations overnight said, okay, wait a minute, let's take that strategy. And then let's put it aside. Let's talk about capabilities. What can we do? And I think, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. Um, and when you're faced with limitations and challenges, like we all have been faced with around the world and not just in the financial services industry, it, it breeds, um, invention and the, and the desire and the need to actually meet those challenges head on, in very engineered of ways. >>And I think you're going to see more invention and specifically more invention from the established players in the financial services industry. Cloud use is not just experimental on the edges anymore. You're going to see more organizations coming out of COVID. Um, having had those experiences where they actually stood up a context center and scaled it. And, and just a matter of a few days to, to thousands of agents, you're going to find, um, organizations saying, wait a minute, we, we can do remote work. We could, we have access to things like Amazon workspaces. So I think you're, you're gonna, you're going to see that, uh, be a, be a trend. I think you're also gonna see, um, w what Lori beer said in the keynote with Andy, you know, she, she made a very, very astute statement, and I don't know if people caught it, cause it's kind of neat in the middle of her conversation. >>She said, look, we're trying to infuse analytics into everything that we do at JP Morgan. I think you're going to see more and more financial institutions looking to do that, to actually leverage the power of analytics, to power everything we do as a financial institution. So I think those, those are a couple of things that you're going to see. Um, and then, you know, looking, uh, you know, kind of around the corner, I think you're going to continue to see more re-invention within the industry. And what I mean by that is you've seen many financial institutions over the last week, uh, with, uh, re-invent making announcements, you saw bank and we towel saying, Hey, look, we are completely transforming ourselves with AWS. Uh, just a few weeks before we even saw standard charter, the same thing HSBC said, the same thing, global payments earlier in the year said the same thing. And you're going to see more and more organizations coming out and talking about these strategic decisions to reinvent everything that they do to make the financial systems of the world work. And so we're really pleased to be partnering with those organizations to make those transformations possible. We're seeing a lot of invention within the industry, and we're very pleased to be a part of the reinvention of the financial systems around the world. >>It's interesting to hear that you, you see, even the JP Morgan, some of those legacy, big houses are going to be really pivoting. They have to, to be competitive and to be able to utilize analytics, to deliver those real-time services. Because as we all know, as consumers, our patients is wearing thin these days, but I agree with you. I think there's a lot of opportunity there that innovation is exciting and there will have to be reinvention of entire industries, but I think there's a lot of silver linings there. Scott. I wish we had more time, cause I know we could keep talking, but thank you for sharing your insights on this reinvented reinvent this year. >>I appreciate it. Thank you, Lisa. It's always a pleasure to be on the cube. >>Chris Scott Mullins, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2020.