(gentle music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome back to New York City. Lisa Martin and John Furrier here with theCUBE, covering AWS Summit NYC. This is a series of summits this year. There's about 15 of them globally. We are excited to be here with a couple of guests. We have an alumni back with us. Couple of guests from Caylent, Stephen Garden joins us, the Executive Chairman, and Valerie Henderson, Chief Revenue Officer. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you for having us. >> Great to have you, welcome back. >> Appreciate it, from 2016. >> 2016, it's been a minute. >> Yep. >> But that was before Caylent. Talk to us about Caylent, what do you guys do? What do you deliver? How are you affiliated with AWS? >> Sure, so we were founded in 2015, initially as a container management product. So our roots are very deeply centered around Cloud native. We've since evolved and become a Cloud native consultancy. We're all in with AWS. We were actually just awarded AWS Premier Partner a couple of weeks ago, so we're pretty pumped about that, but we're about 250 people now, across North and South America. And our goal is really to work with customers that are looking to innovate and evolve and use AWS as a catalyst to build new products for their business. >> As a catalyst, I like that. Valerie, talk about the customer. Obviously so much tumbled in the last couple of years. Still going through it. >> Yeah, of course. >> How have customer conversations evolved and changed in the last couple of years, from your perspective? >> Yeah, I think from my perspective it is such a unique time and it's a time that is constantly changing. And I think change breeds opportunity, and I feel like customers see that, and they're leaning in. They want the opportunity to create new revenue streams, do more, more efficiently, and I think that's the key. And the questions are really asking, how can we take our data, and turn it into something that we can monetize? How can we be smarter with what we have? And I think it's an incredible time to be in the space that we're in. Every conversation I have is really forward thinking, and about the business. And I've been in this space for a while, and that was not always that case. And I think now people are shifting that IT shop to IP shop, and that's so key, from my perspective. >> Interesting, interesting shift there. Every company has to be a data company these days, to be competitive, the last couple of years it was, how did we survive? Pivot, pivot, pivot. But to be a data company, means you have to be able to extract the value and insights from that data and act on it, to your point, develop new products, new revenue streams, new opportunities. How do you enable companies, and maybe this is a question that you can both answer, to truly become data companies? >> The whole model from a service's perspective is not a do-for model, it is a do-with model. And any time we go into a customer, it's like, where are they on the curve? From monolith application, to microservices, where do they sit today? And I think when you dig in, you assess, you deeply understand where they are, you can get them to where they want to be, and build a plan. And the way our model works is, we're doing it with them, and what that means is we're enabling them, documentation, we're supporting them, that if we're not there, they're going to be able to carry it forward and continue to do more. So, that's so so important. I'd love Stephen's take on it. >> Yeah, I think the other trend that we're seeing in data more recently is that customers need to share their information with other partners, collaborate. And AWS is just the perfect platform to be able to do that, enable that sharing. And you're seeing even businesses like Snowflake build a data Cloud on top of AWS. So, I think that's a new angle that we're seeing which is really bringing together way more innovation- >> What about that data clean-room trend that's going on, Snowflake's doing a lot of that. But some of them have a little lock in spec there, versus being open, security, privacy, governance, what's the balance between open sharing and the requirements you need to be secure and compliant? >> Yeah, I think very simplistically, the information that you are using to deliver your product and service to customers generally safer, more public and available, the information that's confidential to your business behind the scenes, obviously, you use the right protocols to lock it out. But it is a very hot topic in today's world, especially with Web3 and people seeking to get their information back, so... >> So you mentioned you guys around since 2015, if you go back in time, it seems like yesterday, but Cloud time, it's like two generations ago. Why is data now more relevant? Is it because the technology's gotten better and easier, or more maturization of the client's understanding, or being full with data, having a data problem and hence an opportunity? Or is it open source has evolved? Or all three, what's your reaction to that? Why is it exploding now when it's been around for a while? >> It keeps exponentially growing, right? The more and more data. There was a stat four or five years ago about, hey, we're taking more photographs in a single year now than all of mankind, leading up to that date, but I think just the sheer quantities and the way people are managing it now, and being able to actually capture information points of everything across their entire business, just presents a much bigger opportunity to be able to take and form decisions of the back of that. >> So do you see the customers having more data full problems, that they're having more data? So that's... And in that one >> 100%. >> Of the consequences of not leveraging it? >> Yeah, it's what to do. Yeah, absolutely, and if you think about when you wake up in the morning if you ask Alexa what the weather is, and like, you're creating data, in every engagement with the world. So I think it's this explosion of it, but then it exists, and what do you do, and having a strategy. I still think one of the biggest gaps is people, and talent, and expertise to do the work, frankly. Which is, the hypothesis of Caylent existing. >> Yeah, I think a data concept and application, because what's the weather to Alexa, is an application of what's the weather, it's a request, but it's actually the data's built into the app. >> It's built in. >> So data as code is a new trend. >> Yes, yeah, yeah, and I think it's funny to answer the question. There's more data points surrounding how to leverage your data, and I'm like, it's crazy, I think you're really seeing that working- >> We have an old data warehouse, we can't get the weather data, although it's there somewhere. But that's the problem. Getting the data, in the applications, this is not... Wasn't around 10 years ago. No one was talking like that. Now it's more standard. That sounds like DevOps to me, a DevOps problem. >> Yeah, moving from the monolithic to the microservice is wild, and just the way that people are building applications today. The users, their customers are demanding more from the service, and AWS is able to deliver that. >> What are some of your customers doing with you guys, can you give some examples and scope the scale of your relationship with the customers, vis-a-vis AWS and the Cloud, how they're using you guys and the Cloud. >> Yeah, yeah, for sure, a customer of ours, Allergen, which is an incredible organization, really had a large effort to modernize. And they actually have a data lab within their company called Allergen Data Labs, and they leveraged us to truly just modernize this containerization effort. How they can do more with less, and that serverless experience. So, I think from my perspective what we're seeing is also a need to be thoughtful about DevOps retooling and tooling because talent wants to work with the best toolset, the hottest stuff on the street, and again, to keep talent is key, in any organization's success. >> Valerie, how does Caylent help with that from a talent perspective? Obviously there's talent shortage, we're also still in the great resignation. >> Oh my gosh. >> How do you help organizations bridge the gap so that they can glean insights from data and be competitive and win? >> Yeah, we actually just published a case study with Novus which was bought by SEI, which is a huge financial firm. Where they said, "Listen, it's human nature to say I have a gap, and I need to fill it, I'm going to hire somebody." That's human nature to say, okay, this is what we're going to do. But the reality is, I think companies are starting to see the advantage of using a partner and say, okay, I could hire one person or I could bring in a partner who's going to have a team of five, works incrementally for a period of time, does with, helps coach my team up, document all of that, and I think that they're seeing value from that. And ultimately, it's not that we don't want them to eventually hire. When they do hire, we want that person to come in and have the best experience. >> And sometimes the people aren't even available, right? >> Correct, yeah. >> So you have a combination of managed services, a plethora of managed services that are also involved with the customers. So, it's that integration, scale, and partnering and sharing. You mentioned sharing data earlier, how do you guys view that integration piece, 'cause if you have a modern architecture, you got to have that decomposed, decoupled but integrated approach. >> Yeah, we really believe that the whole world of project services and managed services is coming together as one. So we have a single delivery model which we're really passionate about. And we look at it as an embedded team within our customers, embedded DevOps to support them, basically on anything that could be from a modernizing a new application through to addressing a more traditional Cloud architecture framework that's in place. But yeah, the trick to it is, as Val said earlier is the do with approach, not just do for, right? I think customers need to learn about the Cloud. They need to understand the technology that they're using. They want to have that understanding. And we found a way of fitting in our services to help them accelerate that part. >> So Valerie, I got to ask you the question. So, in sports you talk about the modern era of baseball or whatever, we're in the modern era of Cloud, going next generation. We call it Super Cloud, a concept that Dave and I put out at re:Invent. If someone asks you, what does the modern era look like? As you look at your customer base and the data you guys have, how would you describe this modern era? What is it made up of? Is it outcomes versus solutions? Is it technology that's decentralized? How do you talk about it? What is the modern era, if you were- >> Not to oversimplify it, but I'm going to, the idea that somebody could come into work and all they have to think about is business outcomes and the data points that they need to achieve said business outcomes. I'm the biggest fan of measure what matters, I think it is an incredibly powerful methodology. And I think anybody who thinks about running business, they know that it's a scale. The amount of companies that are in that place is very small right now. So I think modern era is really that running an IT company to an IP company. >> So Stephen, if you unpack that, what's under the covers to make that happen? Automation, machines, what's your assessment of that outcome, which by the way was well said. Beautiful, beautiful comment. What makes that happen? >> I think it is around automation. It is around do once and then apply many times. That is key. Obviously it's a fundamental principle of the Cloud, is that consistency in that repeatability. So when you can simplify services down to a point, click, deploy, I think you're in a much better position to be able to move quickly and then not have to worry about anything under the hood and just focus, like Val said, on the business outcomes. >> That's more creative. They're focusing on the problems, to not do the rock fetches and the heavy lifting that's not differentiated. >> I find that what gives people energy generates opportunity. And I think when people hit those roadblocks of, these things don't work together. There's all these interdependencies. It's really challenging. So I love what's happening. I think there's never been a better time to be in this business. >> Not a dull moment, That's for darn sure. >> Not a dull moment. >> Valerie, talk about outcomes. You mentioned a couple of customers that you're working with, some case studies. It is all about outcomes these days. That's the conversations that we have with the entire ecosystem is all about business outcomes. What are some of those key transformative business outcomes that Caylent is helping customers to achieve? >> Yeah, to me one thing that is key is, anytime I'm meeting with a customer, I want to understand who their customers are. I'm like, who is your customer? And how can we create a better experience for that customer. Whether it's their end users or their external customers. And I think that is a huge element. What we're seeing is that sassification of, how do I make it easier for my customers to procure and engage with my platform? And a lot of what we're doing right now is helping clients with that. And it's not a flip of a switch, it's not a click of a button, it's complicated. But that is what we are here to help, help simplify, help create that understanding of what's possible. >> How do you guys talk to your customers, take a minute to give a plug for the company. What are you looking for? What's the stats? How many employees you guys hiring, and what's the pitch to customers? >> Yeah, so I think every organization is on their journey to the Cloud now. It's gotten to that point where if you're not working with a public Cloud provider, you're part of a very, very small group. We like to say that we'll meet customers where they are, and help evolve them as a business, help evolve their teams. And that's what we mean when we say do with, so it's a pretty broad spectrum. We're big in healthcare. We're big in FinTech. We've worked with a lot of startup customers. We have about 250 customers today, 250 employees. And we're scaling rapidly. We've grown that from about 50 employees a year ago. >> Oh, wow. >> Yes, when I started, we were just around 60 people and we're at 260 today. >> And why are people working with you? What are you guys, solving a problem? Are you enabling them? What's the pitch? >> Without a doubt, I love that. Being in sales my whole career, somebody asking me for a pitch is my favorite. >> Okay, let's go. >> Yeah, yeah, the true value prop of what we do is all of the above. We enable, we help customers do more faster, but again, we do not want customers to walk away from an engagement with us saying, oh no, we don't know what to do. We want them to feel empowered. I still think the biggest gap from everything being in that IP business outcome is people. And for us, we're so passionate about that, and building a company that really truly believes that. And that's part of who we are as a company and our value system. >> And the digital transformation, ultimately what they're going through, you get them there faster. They get the outcomes and they're operational. >> Absolutely, and also to be clear, when a customer has a great experience working with you, they want to tell other people about the experience. And for us, like the referrals that we get, the partnership with Amazon is so key. >> What are some reactions after you go through an engagement? We've been riffing on this concept of Super Cloud where you're starting to see people build on top of, not the AWSs, but their partners that work with them. And so the customers are getting their own Cloud experience at scale. What are some of the comments you hear from your successful customers? What are some anecdotal feedback? >> Yeah, yeah. >> I'm so glad we did this because now I'm selling more, I'm doing this, what are some of the things that they're thinking? >> Yeah, yeah, I think ultimately the consistent theme that we get is, "I'm so glad that I didn't let fear hold me back from engaging a partner," because a lack of control scares a lot of customers. It does. And I think customers that are willing to say, "Okay, I'm going to have a little faith, trust in the process." They thank us. They do, and we've seen that across the board. I think that crossing that chasm is not to be underestimated without a doubt. >> Great story, congratulations. >> Oh, thank you. >> Well, there's nothing more powerful and potent than the voice of the customer. >> Without a doubt. And really you have to listen. >> Yes, yes, definitely. Stephen, Valerie, thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program today, talking about Caylent, what you guys are doing for customers with AWS, empowering, enabling, collaboration. I love it, thank you. >> Yeah, thank you both. >> All right, our pleasure. For John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live in New York City, we are at AWSO in NYC, John and I will be right back with our next guest. (gentle music)

>> From the SiliconAngle media office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE! Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to theCUBE's Boston-area studio. Welcome back to the program, CUBE alum, Ashok Ramu, Vice President and General Manager of Cloud at Actifio, great to see you. >> Happy New Year, Stu, happy to be here. >> 2020, hard to believe it said, it feels like we're in the future here. And talking about future, we've watched Actifio for many years, we remember when copy data management, the category, was created, and really, Actifio, we were talking a lot before Cloud was the topic that we spent so much talking about, but Actifio has been on this journey with its customers in Cloud for many years, and of course, that is your role is working, building the product, the team working all over it, so give us a little bit of a history, if you would, and give us the path that led to 10C announcement. >> Sure thing. We started the Cloud journey early on, in 2014 or 2013-ish, when Amazon was the only Cloud that really worked. We built our architecture, in fact, we took our enterprise architecture and put it on the Cloud and realized, "Oh my god," you know, it's a world of difference. The economics don't work, the security model is different, the scale is different. So, I think with the 8.0 version that came out in 2017, we really kind of figured out the architecture that worked for large enterprises, particularly enterprises that have diverse data sets and have requirements around, you know, marrying different applications to data sets anywhere they want, so we came up with efficient use of object, we came up with the capability of migrating workloads, taking VMware VMs, bringing up on Azure, bringing up on DCP, et cetera. So that was the first foray into Actifio's Cloud, and since then, we've been just building strength after strength, you know. It's been a building block, understanding our customers, and thank you to the customers and the hyperscalers that actually led us to the 10C release. So this, I believe, we've taken it up a notch wherein, we understand the Cloud, we understand the infrastructure, the software auto-tunes itself to know where it's running on, taking the guessing game out of the equation. So 10C really represents what we see as a launchpad for the rest of the Cloud journey that Actifio's going to embark upon. We have enabled a number of new use cases like AI and ML, data transformation is key, we tackled really complicated workloads like HANA and Sybase and MySQL, et cetera, and in addition to that, we also adopt different native Cloud technologies, like Cloud snapshots, like recovery orchestration of the Cloud, et cetera. >> Yeah, I think it's worth reminding our audience there that Actifio's always been software. And when you talk about, you know, I think back to 2013, 2014, it was the public Cloud versus the data center, and we have seen the public Cloud in many ways looks more and more like what the enterprise has been used to. >> Absolutely. >> And the data centers have been trying to Cloud-ify for a number of years, and things like containerization and Kubernetes is blurring the line, and of course, every hyperscaler out there now has something that reaches their public Cloud into the data center and of course, technologies like VMware are also extending into the public Cloud, or, SAP now, of course is all of the Cloud environment. So with hybrid Cloud and multi-Cloud as kind of the waves of driving, help us understand that Actifio lives in all of these environments, and they're all a little bit different, so how does Actifio make sure that it can provide the functionality and experience that users want, regardless of where it is? >> Absolutely, you said it right. Actifio has always been a software company. And it is our customers that showed us, by Cloudifying their data centers, that we had to operate in the Cloud. So we had on premises VMware Clouds, not before we had Amazon and Azure and Google. So that evolution started much early on. And so, from what, you know, Actifio's a very customer-driven company, be it, you know, all segments of the company are driven by the customers, and in 2019, and even before, when you see a strong trend to migrate workloads, to move workloads, we realized, there is a significant opportunity, because the hardest thing to migrate is the volume of data because it's ever-changing, and it is ever-growing. So, the key element of neutrality was the application itself. Microsoft SQL's a SQL no matter how you run it. It could be on a big Windows machine in your data center or a NGCP, it makes no difference. So Actifio's approach to start application down basically gave us the freedom to say, we're going to create SQL to SQL. I don't know if you're running in Azure, Google, DOP data center, or AliCloud, it makes no difference to me. I understand SQL, I understand SQL's availability groups, I understand logs, I can capture it and give it back to you, so when we took that approach, it kind of automatically gave us infrastructure neutrality, really didn't care. So when we have a conversation with a customer, it basically goes around lines of, "Okay, Mr. Customer, how much data do you have? And what are your key applications? Can you categorize them in terms of priority?" It usually comes out to be databases are the crown jewels, so they're the number one priority in terms of data management, migration, test Av, et cetera. And then, we basically drill down into the ecosystem the databases live into. So, because we walk application down, the conversation is the same whether the customer is in the data center, or in the Cloud. So that is how we've evolved, and that's how we're thinking from a product standpoint, from a support standpoint, and then the overall company is built that way. So it makes it easy for us to adapt a new platform that comes in. So, when you talked about, you know, how does, each Cloud is different, you're absolutely right, the security concepts are different, right? Microsoft is built on active directory, Google is built on something very different. So how do you utilize and how do you make this work? We do have an infrastructure layer that basically provides Cloud-specific capabilities for various Cloud platforms. And that has gotten to a point where it understands and tunes itself from a security standpoint and a performance standpoint. Once that's taken care of, the rest of the application stack, which is over 90% of our software, stays the same, there's no change. And so that is how we kind of tackle this. Because the ecosystem we live in, we have to keep up with two people. We have to keep up with the infrastructure people who are making it bigger, faster, and we also have to keep up with the application people who are making it fancier and more complicated. So that's unfortunately the ecosystem we live in, and taking this approach has given us a mechanism to insulate us from a lot of the complexities of these two environments. >> Yeah, that's great, 'cause when you talk to customers and you say, "What's going on in your environment," change is difficult. So, how many different pieces of what I'm doing do I need to move to be able to take advantage of the modern economics. On the one hand, you know, if I have an application and I like it, well, maybe I could just lift and shift it, but if I'm just lifting, shifting, I'm not necessarily taking advantage of the full Cloud native environments, but I need to make sure that my data is protected, backup, you mentioned security, are of course the top concerns, so. It sounds like, in many ways, you're talking, helping customers work through some of those initiatives, being able to take advantage of new environments, but not need to completely change everything. Maybe, I'd love to hear a little bit, when you talk about the developers and DevOps initiatives that are happening inside customers, where does that impact, where does that connect with what Actifio's doing? >> Well, that's a great question. So, let me start with a real customer example. We have this customer, SEI Investments, who basically, their business model is to grow by acquisition, so they're adding on tens, hundreds of developers every quarter. So it's impossible to keep up with infrastructure needs when you grow at that pace. They decided to adopt a Cloud platform. And with each Cloud platform comes some platform-specific piece that all these developers now have to re-tool themselves. So, I'm a developer, I used to come in the morning, open up my machine and start working away on the application, now I have to do something different, and if there is 300 of me, and the cost of moving to the Cloud was a lot less than training the developers. It was much harder to train the developers because it has been ongoing process. So we were presented the challenge of how do you avoid it? So, when we are able to separate the application layer from the data layer, because of the way we operate, what we present as a solution was to say, just move your, what is the heaviest layer you have? That's the database, okay. And what are the copies you're creating? I'm creating hundreds of copies of my Oracle database, okay. Let's just move that to the Cloud. All of the front-end application doesn't see a change, thanks to the great infrastructure work the Cloud providers do, you add 10 Gigabyte to everywhere. So network is not a problem, computer's not a problem, it's just available on an API call, so you provision that. All they did was a data movement, moved it from Point A to Point B, gives you the flexibility to spend up any number of copies you want in the Cloud, now, your developer tool sets haven't changed, so there's no training required for developers, but from an operations standpoint, you've completely eased the burden of creating a hundred more copies every month, because Cloud is built for that. So you take the elasticity of the Cloud, advantage of that, and provide the data in the last mile to the Cloud, thereby, developers, they will access the application with the same level of ease. So, that is the paradigm we're seeing, we're seeing, you know, in some of our customers, there is faster and better storage provision for Actifio because there are 190 developers working off Actifio, where there's only about a handful of people running production. So, it's a paradigm shift is where we see it. And the pace at which we bring up the application wherein we're able to bring up 150 terabyte article database in three hours. Before Actifio, it used to be, maybe, 30 days, if you were lucky. So it's not just an order of magnitude, it's what you can do with that data, is where we're seeing the shift going to. >> Yeah, it's interesting, when you go back and look at some of the changes that have happened in the Cloud, Cloud storage was one of the earliest discussed use cases there, and backup to the Cloud was one of the earlier pieces of the Cloud storage discussion. Yet, we've seen changes and maturation into what can actually be done, explain a little bit how Actifio enables even greater functionality when you're talking about backup to the Cloud. >> Absolutely. You know, the object storage technology, it's probably the most scalable and stable piece of storage known to mankind, because nobody can build that level of scale that Amazon, Azure, and Google have put into it. From a security standpoint, performance standpoint, and scale standpoint. So I'm able to drop my data in Boston and pick it up in Tokyo seamlessly, right? That's unheard of before. And the biggest impediment to that, was a lot of legacy application data didn't know how to consume this object storage. So what Actifio came up with on onboard technology was to light up the object storage for everybody, and basically make it a performance neutral platform, wherein you take the guessing game out of the customer. The customer doesn't need to go research S3 or Google Nearline or Google Persistent Disk and say I want ten copies there versus five copies there, Actifio figures it out for you. You give us your SLA, you give us your RTOs and RPOs, and we tell you, okay, this is the most cost effective way to store your data. You get the multi-year retention for free, you get the GDPR, appchafe and protection for free, you get the geo-redundancy for free. All this is built into the platform. In addition, you also can run DevOps off the object store. You can run DR off the object store. So we enabled a lot of the legacy use cases using this new technology, so that is kind of where we see the cusp, wherein, in the Cloud, there's always a question and a debate, does D-doop make sense? D-doop consumes a lot of compute, takes a lot of memory, you need to have that memory and compute whether you want it or not. We're seeing a lot more adoption of encryption, where the data is encrypted at source. When you encrypt data, D-doop is just a big compute-churning platform, it doesn't do much for you. So we went through this debate actively, I think four or five years ago, and we figured out, object store's the way to go. You cannot get storage, I mean, it's a buck a terabyte in Google, and dropping. How can you get storage that's reliable, scalable, at a lower cost? All we had to do was actuate the use of that storage, which is what we did. >> Yeah. I'm just laughing a little bit because, you know, gosh, I think back a dozen years ago, the industry knew that the future of storage would be object, yet it's taken a long time to really be able to leverage it and use it, and the Cloud, the hyperscalers of course, have been a huge enabler on that, but we don't want customers to have to think about that it's object underneath, and that's the bridging the gap that I think we've been looking for. There, what else. We talk about really being able to extract the value out of Cloud, you know, data protection, disaster recovery, migrations are all things that are top of mind. >> Yeah, absolutely. All those use cases, and we're seeing some of the top rating CIOs talk about AI and ML. We've had a couple of customers who want to basically take their manufacturing data from remote sites and pump it into Google bit query. Now we all know manufacturing happens in Taiwan and Singapore and all those locations, now how do you take data from all those applications, normalize it, and pump it into Google bit query and get your predictable results on a quarterly basis, it's a challenge. Because the data volumes are large. So with our Cloud technology and our onboard capability, we're able to funnel data directly into Google Nearline, and on a quarterly basis, on a scheduled basis, transform it, push it into bit query, and bring out the results for the end user. So that journey is pretty transformated, from a customer standpoint. What they used to have five people do maybe once a year, now with a push of a button happens every quarter. So it's a change in how the AI and ML analytics evolve. The other element is also you know, our partnership with IBM, we're working very closely with their Cloud bag for data. Cloud bag for data is an awesome platform built to analyze any kind of data that you might have. With Actifio's normalization platform, you basically can feed any data into Actifio and it presents a unified interface into the slow pack, so you can build your analytics workloads very quickly and easily. >> So we've talked a lot about Cloud, one of the other C's of course in 10C is containers, if we look at containerization, when it first started, it was stateless applications, most applications that are running in containers are running for very short period of time, so help us understand where Actifio fits there, what's the problem statement that you are solving? >> Oh, absolutely. So containers are coming up, up and coming and out of reality, and as we see more applications flow into containers, you see the data lives outside the container. Because containers are short-lived, they're microservices, they come up and they go down, and the state is maintained in a storage platform outside the container, so Actifio tackles containers by taking the data protection strategy we have for the storage platform already, Bell defined, but enhancing the data presentation into the container as it comes up. So a container can be brought up in seconds, maybe less. But the container is only brought to life when it can lead to data and start working again, so that's the bridge Actifio actuates. So we understand, you know, the architecture of how a container is put together, how the container system is put together, and basically, we marry the storage and the application consistent in the storage into the container so that the container's databases, or applications, come to life. >> And that could be in a customer's data center, in a public Cloud, Kubernetes enabled, all of that? >> Absolutely, it can be anywhere, and with 10C, what we have done is we've also integrated with Cloud Native Snapshot, so if you talk about net neutrality for the container platform, if it's on premises, we have all kinds of access to the storage, the infrastructure, and the platforms so our processing is very different. If you take it to the Cloud, let's say Google, Google Kubernetes platform is fairly, it's a black box. You get some storage, and you get containers. And you have an API access to the storage. So in Google, we automatically autotune and start taking the Google snapshots to take the storage perfection, so that's the other way we've kind of neutralized the platform. >> Yeah, you've got a, thinking about it just from a customer's standpoint, one of the big challenges there is they've got everything from their big monoliths, they're big databases, through these microservice Cloud native architectures there, and it sounds like you know, is that just one of the fundamental architectural designs to make sure that you can span across those environments and give customers a common look and feel between those environments? >> Absolutely. The single pane of glass is a big askt and a big focus for us, not just across infrastructure, it's across geos and across all platforms. So you could have workloads running AIX6, VMware, in the Cloud, all the way through containers, and manage it all to a single console, to know when was the last good backup, how many copies of the database am I running, and each of these databases could have their own security constructs. So we normalize all of those elements and put them in a single console. >> Okay, 10C, shipping today? >> 10C shipping today, we have early access to a few customers, the general availability releases possibly in the February timeframe. >> Okay, and if I'm an existing Actifio customer, what's the path for me to get to 10C? >> Our support will reach out and do a simple software upgrade, it's available on all Cloud platforms, it's available everywhere, so you will see that on all the marketplaces and the regular upgrade process will get you that. >> Okay, and if I'm not an Actifio customer today, how easy is it for me to try this out? >> Oh, it is very easy, with our Actifio go SAS platform, it's a one-click download, you can download and try it out, try all the capabilities of the platform, it's also available on all the Cloud marketplaces for you to go and access that. >> All right, well, Ashok, a whole lot of pieces inside of 10C, congratulations to you and the team for building that, and definitely look forward to hearing more about the customer deployments. >> Thank you, we have exciting times ahead. >> All right. Lots more coverage from theCUBE throughout 2020, be sure to check out theCUBE.net, I'm Stu Miniman, thanks for watching theCUBE. (techno music)

[Announcer] - Live from Washington D.C., it's theCUBE, covering .NEXT Conference brought to you by Nutanix. >> We're back in D.C., welcome to NextConf, this is day two of our wall-to-wall coverage and this is theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante with Stu Miniman. Dheeraj Pandey is here, he's the chairman and CEO of Nutanix. Long time CUBE alum. Great to see you again. >> Pleasure. >> So you know, I love your style, up on stage yesterday. Very philosophical, always have been humble. You sort of said, "I'm going to stay humble," and it appears that's the case. But yet, there's so much excitement around here, you have a lot to be very proud of. How do you feel? >> You know, there's no finish line in this company building, just like there's no finish line when you have a family, it never ends actually. Nutanix is a family, and we are trying to make it a bigger, happier family with more customers, more partners, more employees. I feel good, but I think this company is good right now, it's not a great company. We probably will have to spend another decade to make it a great company actually, so. >> How do you, as the chairman and CEO, how do you define "great company"? >> Great companies, for one, actually take really good care of their stakeholders. You think about employees and customers and partners and also Wall Street, so I think at the end of the day we have barely begun the journey in some of these things. Customers, sure, we have quite a few of them, but I think we can do so much more for them. At some level, even in the largest accounts, we're barely scratching the surface actually. Same thing with employees, you know, we have almost 3000 employees but still, we could do so much more for them as well in terms of wealth creation, in terms of building careers. Very early days. Same thing with Wall Street as well, very early days actually. >> Dheeraj, you're always opening to listening to feedback, but you mentioned, you've now got a lot of constituencies. I know I've interviewed you and said well you know, there's the 90-day shock clock but, we can't get distracted, we need to focus. How do you, you know, what is the filter, how do you, what do you take in and internalize to translate into the direction of the company? >> You know I talk about two things. There's delight, there's waste. Delight for main street and make sure you're cognizant of the waste with Wall Street, because if you keep growing they won't bother you. What they bother you with is waste. How are you growing, what does efficiency look like at scale? So I just learn "growth at any cost". I think these are all timely reminders for any company, so that it doesn't get too painful when recessions hit you, because there's highs and lows of any company that you have to go through. So I believe that waste is the larger ego of delight, and if you can do a really good job of delighting our customers, our partners, our employees and then figure out how to deal with all of this with waste in mind, I think we'll do a pretty good job. So what matters the most is delight, but not without figuring out what's waste-like. I think you have to keep looking at these "KPIs" and say how are we really doing at scale with respect to distribution, marketing, product development, product engineering. Now we have a pretty large engineering workforce as well. How can the company be delightful for them if you don't have "two-pizza teams", if you don't have APIs and microservices in which they actually talk to each other, still feel like they're the CTO of their company, because they all want to make independent decisions and design trade-offs and things of that nature. I think we talk about this thing which is a really important abstract thing, it's called the paradox of growth. I learned this from some of these folks who have done this book called The Founder's Mentality. Growth creates complexity and complexity kills growth, so just be aware of what you really vied for can kill you as well, and continue to release complexity to organizations in the way you deal with your customers, and I think those are the things that really matter. I look at employees as customers, I look at customers as customers, I look at partners as customers. If you have the customer-centric view, you'll probably continue to simplify things under the cover. >> One of the things that you see in great companies is early on they're able to articulate a vision, see that vision, execute on it obviously and continue to grow their team, I mean that's a big part of your job. You've dramatically, well first of all, the team that you started with was quite large. Cloud expands that enormously. So maybe talk about your vision and how you're seeing that through. >> Well I think from very early on, the mission was invisible infrastructure. And that is an infinite mission because again, no finish line actually. You can make things invisible and then probably say we still aren't invisible enough and you have to make it more invisible. When you have downer to four clicks you have to say how about three and two and one click? And finally get rid of the click because machine learning can come in and automate more things as well. So how more and more things go from humans to machines and how the human-man-machine interface becomes less frictioned is the vision of this company. Now, all of this is not just graphical UI because the systems have to work, they have to be scalable, stable, reliable, available. So the back-end has to be very robust but then without a front-end it's really the same as a man-machine interface. Also the machine-machine interface, because APIs match for a lot as well, you know. If you're only thinking about man-machine, then you've lost a lot of this automation and machine learning capability as well, actually. >> I think back to some of our earliest conversations, you always talked about Nutanix is a software company and the challenge of our day is building distributed systems. The tooling and the way we build things today are very different from when you started the company. If you were starting from a bare sheet today, would you be born in the cloud, you know, how would things like containers and microservices change the way, or, and how are you taking from where you are today, which it started out in virtualization, is that a core, you've got AHV driving a lot of the pieces, versus some of those who are models? >> Yeah, I mean, look, VMware was building an operating system, but they needed a shield of EMC to go sell and distribute that. We had the compute virtualization piece that came a little bit later, but the storage virtualization, the control plane pieces, we needed to shield them, and we shield them in appliance, and that became our form factor the could give us the control of our own destiny, and that's what the appliance did to us. But you always knew you were building software, actually. And many people told us early on, just don't build appliances at all, and we would've been killed, we probably would have to sell this company early on, because it's really hard to build an OS company early on when you don't have a brand and nobody's willing to support you and customers are like, you know, if nobody else is willing to support you, how do you really build an operating system, actually? So I think if there's a method to the madness, we always knew we had to be hardware-agnostic, that's why we never built NVRAMs and FBGAs and things like that. And over time when Dell came forward and said look, you should OEM your product, I think it was a very natural decision for us two and a half, three years ago. I think there's been this controlled release of goodness of this operating system that basically not mean like oh we never thought about it, we always thought about hardware-agnosticism, hypervisor-agnosticism, all those things were there from day one in this company. But you know the question of whether we would start in the cloud today? Honestly, all companies have to start where they are in order to make money, and continue to navigate the shifting sands of time actually. I mean, you sell books, then realize it's not good enough, you go and sell, you know goods with e-commerce, and that's not good enough, you sell computing. We started an office productivity company, go and do a desktop operating system, then you go and do databases and server operating system and then all sorts of things for the family room and so on and then finally do a cloud. I think there's no, you know, change is the only constant you know, if you were to think about it, and companies that actually survive and thrive, they start someplace, and their thing, every three, four years, you just find the adjacencies, and keep navigating, you know, how the market is actually shifting and changing. >> There's a strange aura around your company. Now maybe it's the allure of the product, I don't know, but you have a lot of companies now coming into this ecosystem. We have Chad on next from Dell EMC, you know, arguably one of your larger competitors, okay, but they're here and they're happy to be here. So, it's, I say, maybe it's product, but it's also part cultural. And I'm guessing that your philosophy is it can't be a zero sum game. It's got to be a win-win for the partner, so I wonder if you could add any color to that. >> Yeah, that's a great point by the way, bring up this idea that you can be all things to all people. Somebody asked me in this analyst meetup, how about just go and build a firewall? We can, there's too deep a space in there for us to go build everything, so we need to have open APIs, where others also make money. And by the way, when you have a really flourishing ecosystem, the word of mouth, that they're also making money, the word builds a larger ecosystem, a larger operating system and so on. That's what Apple 2.0 was, because in 1.0 they were all about it's me, it's mine, no one else can do anything, and then they saw Microsoft, and how it was really building this burgeoning ecosystem with APIs, APIs, and more APIs. 90 was Microsoft's decade because of APIs actually, and partners and ecosystems, and Apple learned from them by the way, so when they came out and said we built a device, they said no no no, we've also got to build iTunes, because that's ecosystem, and then they built iCloud and app store and things like that. So I think there are lessons galore in the last 20, 25 years where if you're not a good API-driven company, you're probably not a long-lasting company actually. And the idea of a platform is incomplete without those APIs and the ecosystem itself. >> There's a change in accountant coming which is going to make you, I guess, to restate the software that you've sold through the OEMs will probably have Wall Street look at you a little bit differently. We've talked in the past before about how much you want to sell as Nutanix, how much you want to sell with partners. What's that mix that you see today going forward? How much of your product will you see, hardware, software, services, what's a good mix for you? >> Yeah, I think it's a, it's a good opportunity for the company to really think about revenue 2.0, because revenue 1.0 was what we had sort of planned out four, five years ago and 2.0 is a time when we have different form factors. We have ELAs that we started doing in the last 12 months. We're selling software in CISCO and now software in HP. Obviously Zai will happen in subscription as well. Now we have markable routes to market, you know, obviously the OEMs have actually matured, both OEMs have matured. So the question is of how do we really make it simple one more time? Because obviously there's more routes to market, so as a company we're saying now we can sell more software, and with a new accounting change, which is called ASC 606, software will have to be recognized in the same quarter, we can't defer it arbitrarily. And in some ways it's a good thing, in some ways it's bad because it takes away our goodness of the waterfall, because we could have deferred more revenue, as a company we've deferred a lot, I mean, folks know we have about $465,000,000 of deferred revenue right now, because of how good we were in actually postponing this instant gratification of cutted quarter and so on. So I think some of that will have to be brought into the current quarter but in some sense it's a good thing because we can then take the gross margin of that software and sell more appliances, so I think there's some mixing that'll happen with different margin profiles that'll have to come and kind of work with each other to say can we still grow as a company beyond a billion. >> But these are income statement gymnastics, not that you're playing, but that you're able to- >> Well, there's something about guard rails of the gross margin, because Amazon, what did Amazon say, look, your gross margin, my opportunity, right? So if you just let unbridled software go and sell itself, then our gross margins will be starting to creep up, but what if you kept it within the guard rails of around 60%, and then went and sold more appliances, because the software gave us the luxury to buy growth? I think those are the kind of architectures we are actually looking at right now. >> And the knobs that you might choose to turn, but it will have an impact on the income statement from an operating profit standpoint, I mean, right? If you're going to recognize all that deferred revenue up front you know- >> Just in subscription, we can actually do one-year terms and things like that, but obviously we don't want to completely throw the baby out of the bathwater, because a lot of subscription is a good thing, and Zai will provide subscription. Hopefully as we do this Cisco and HP on software, we can do one-year terms. >> It doesn't seem like these are distractions to you, I mean, Michael Dell always talks about the 90-day shock clock. With you, you sat down with Stu after the IPO, I was struck by your comments of "look, I'm not going to get all wound up about the stock price", you know, you're not going to obsess over it. Now it's easy not to obsess when you're growing at 60, 65% a year, but it doesn't seem like it's been a big distraction for you. >> Yeah, I think it's, just like a growing customer base can be a distraction, can be a strength, you know, because you could say, well, they're asking me not to innovate at all, and have the brute force figure out a way to have velocity and quality, because existing customers want quality, because they don't know what else you can be, like, give me a faster horse, right? And then you know from within the area we innovate that's where velocity matters. Same thing is true for Wall Street as well. Main Street wants both, Wall Street is saying look, as long as you can keep growing and grow wisely, I'm not going to touch you, actually. >> I want to ask you about your customers. We've had some great customers on. Most of the customers I've talked to that are Nutanix are what I'd call, you know, they're in the early part of the adoption, they're people that, they're taking some risks, we heard NASDAQ talk you know, forget about the fear, you've got to go forward. As you grow, how do you stop, you know, the enterprise buyer from trying to shift you, change your model? I loved that you're doing things like, you know, many companies are trying to switch to, you know, consumption models to pay as you grow, but as you try to grow that customer base, how do you pull them ahead or how do they not, you know, hold you back? >> Well I think as long as we have an authentic product, customer service, sales motion relationship they'll like us. And I think obviously there are different kind of sub-functions in the customer itself like procurement versus ID versus the business user and so on, and it's a constant hussle, there's no, again way to say that it's going to be a perfect world one day. If you can keep building great products, have great customer service, and we know that our sales motion is easy because it can, it can be a really good product and have really good customer support, but customers might hate transacting with you. I think that's the last piece that matters, and I think as computing becomes a real consumer market, that's what's happening you know with cloud, you can go and buy a computer like the way you used to buy your toothpaste or mouthwash or shampoo. I think it's becoming even more customer-centric, even more customer service-focused and so on. So I think the changing landscape of computing keeps a lot of vendors honest actually. Now, that doesn't mean that everybody will innovate, enough of them will say look, I'm done, and I think one of the things we've done well in the last five years is that the thesis of the product market fit. Like well, we know this is the product direction, this is the vision of the company, it has actually stuck. You know, people have said "I like what you guys are saying," actually. Over and over and over again, I mean, combos and acquisition, people are like "I love this". HP was one of those really audacious ideas, people said "I love this, now that I see it, I love it, when I didn't see it, I was skeptical". So I think a lot of the thesis of the company around innovation have worked in our favor. I think if we keep having that luck with ourselves, good things will happen. >> So Dheeraj, your positioning of the company has usually been a little bit ahead of the market, you know, for years it was like, ah, what, that HEI thing is a niche, and it's not really much that different, oh, enterprise cloud is nothing more than, you know, kind of vapor you know, what are the misperceptions you see today that you'd want to clarify for the market as to who Nutanix is today and where you're going? >> Well the first one is that we are a hardware company, because we are a hardware company, even though we sell a lot of software within the hardware and obviously we do a lot more software these days. And the fact that HEI's the destination, where HEIs basically was a mere milestone like five years ago or something, you know, we talk about I'd say about five years ago imagine a lot of the competition is talking about SEI today, when people are saying the compute storage form factor is interesting but not that interesting because I need to figure out how to converge clouds now, not just converge devices within my data center, I need to figure out OPEX and CAPEX, how do I meld those things, how do I burst, and things like that, you know. So the story keeps evolving because the consumers, the customers, and the competitors continue to evolve the market as well actually. So I would say that people have to look at us as an OS company, and the more they try us the more they realize why we are an OS company. They look at our networking R&D, they look at our security pieces together, storage, hypervisor, and now Zai, I think, you know, good things will happen. >> I inferred from your keynote yesterday that you're on a mission to change the operating model. Certainly Amazon has changed the operating model as we well know and it's translated into their operating profit, you know, their marginal economics as we've talked about in the past are compelling, software-like for services. As you change that operate- first of all, did I get that right? Are you on that- >> I call it a consumption model. >> Consumption model, great. So where do you see that going for customers? They're obviously taking labor costs out, how far can they take that- how much can you sort of automate in that process for your own company, taking those labor costs out to drive your margin? >> I think again, now going back to this idea of invisible infrastructure, just like it has no finish line, automation has no finish line. We used to automate 50 years ago as well. Automation as a word has existed for 200 years you know, since the industrial revolution actually. So again, there's no finish line in automation, there's no finish line for what machines can do compared to humans and I think they've constantly evolved, I mean, 200 years ago we were primarily agrarian, we would do agriculture and nothing more, and today we are doing a lot more things with our brain and I think we're becoming a more evolved species actually. So I think as machines do more, humans will also figure out a way to continue to do higher level things, so I think the best part about this company is that what we have chosen has no end to it, and the more we think we automate, the more we'll have to automate some more actually. And not just within the realm of compute, virtualization, or storage or networking or security, but also migration, portability, you know, what does it mean to really look at things on and off premise and things like that, so a lot of work is around that. Application automation is a big part of it as well. >> When I hear you say there's no finish line, it reminds me of Jeff Bezos, he says, "there is no day two, we will always be in day one". The two concerns I have, that is, number one, you can't have your employees constantly be charging, you know they run to the point where they're going to burn out and I hear Amazon is a challenging company to work for. Secondly, every customer I talk to, like, boy, they can't keep up with the six week release cycles that are coming at that, you know, remember when it used to be 18 to 24 months, you know, that was nice, we could do upgrade cycles when we want. How do you internally and with customers manage that pace of change and avoid burnout or over-complicating the environment for your customers? >> That's a great point actually, because obviously, if you don't have delighted work, it's hard. For them right now their delight, for Amazon employees, it's stock pricing. That's the only delight they have. But I look at it as a marathon of strengths. You basically have to sprint, take some rest, like after this we'll rest a little, and then say let's go and do another sprint, because NIS is another sprint, you know, and then reading all this stuff is another sprint, so I think if we can keep looking at that, and plus even do a little bit of baton-passing that'll happen, you know, I think as a company, we were all in San Jose and now some of the baton has passed to Seattle, some of the baton has passed to RDP Durham and Bangalore. We build this distributed workforce where different teams are coming in and saying "now I can run with it as well", like Bangalore could not have run with this six, seven, eight years ago, because everything was here. You know, RDP and Seattle were too small for us so I think there's critical mass emerging where the overall morale of the workforce is actually just as good as it was like five, six, seven years ago. Now, people talk about burnout a lot, but I also believe that a lot of this is choice. People who are saying "I know how to blend work and life". It's becoming hybrid, there's no such thing as work separate, life separate, it's melding into each other right now, and it's really becoming like this where people who are working smarter saying "I can figure out what that means in terms of balance". And millenials are again one of those who were born with all these things from day one. So the devices have been with them from day one, actually. They're saying "well, I can't not interact with the machine some time or the other". So I think that a lot of this is evolution for us, I mean, the eight to five way of looking at work, which is "batch processing", is now becoming multitasking and so on, so what happened to operating systems 30, 40 years ago is what's happening to humans as well actually. >> You know, we're out of time, but I wanted to share with our audience, one of the unique things about this conference is that you have advisors. A lot of people hire McKinsey and it all stays, you know, behind closed doors. Condi Rice, Robert Gates, Stephen Hadley, Deepak Malhotra, these are advisors to your company and we've met them all, many have been on theCUBE. You share with your community, your advisors, and you put them in front of your community and it's great content. I've really not seen a company be that transparent with its advisors before. Deliberate? Just sort of happens? >> It's always been like that actually, you know because the more a company learns from them, honestly, the more we've gotten out of them in turns of ROI, if you just think of it from a left wing point of view, but the right wing is that people want to build careers, not just wealth, they want to build careers, they want to actually be with folks that they can look up to you know, when the going gets tough. How do you remember somebody's words? Not just in books, but you know, in flesh and blood, you're like, wow, I talked to Condi Rice, I talked to Bob Gates, I talked to Steve Hadley, these people told me exactly what they went through, and I think there's no substitute to experience actually. To me, people like Mark Templeton and Frank Slootman, they all are great sources of energy and aspiration and ambition as well. >> Outstanding. >> No compression I've heard on experience, right Dave? >> That's right. Dheeraj, I feel calm just hanging out with you here, so thanks very much for coming back on theCUBE, it's always a pleasure to see you, and thanks for having us. Alright, keep it right there everybody, Stu and I will be back with our next guest. We're live from .Next, be right back. (electronic music)