>> Announcer: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering Data Citizens '21 brought to you by Collibra. >> Everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE, continuing our coverage of Data Citizens '21 with Michael Kuzma, who is a Senior Data Engineer at Lockheed Martin but he has just not any Senior Data Engineer. He is the Collibra Ranger of the Year, an outstanding award that certainly honors Michael's dedication to training and evaluation, and development. He is the top dog. And so it is our real pleasure to welcome Michael in this morning. Michael, first off congratulations on the recognition. I know it is well deserved, but, I'm certainly it's been a long time in the making for you. So congratulations on that. >> Thanks, John, thanks so much. >> Yeah, let's talk about the award a little bit here because you're the top Collibra Ranger. The fact that you've undergone this intensive training and evaluation process, what has that or what is that doing for you in terms of your professional development and what you're able to provide Lockheed Martin? >> Well, I think the ranger program definitely has helped with my understanding of the tool. First of all, we're standing up Collibra as sort of the key pillar of data governance within Lockheed Martin. So it's important to have people who are subject-matter experts on the tool that can help the different business areas to be able to stand up and just extract as much value as they can from it. >> Yeah, why did this matter to you? I mean, a lot of work, I mean, a lot of work that went into this and to reach the pinnacle required I know sacrifice and commitment on your part and on your team's part for that matter. But why was this of paramount importance to you? >> Well, I think it was partially because I was early on in my Collibra journey when I took the ranger certification and went through it. So it definitely helped to solidify my understanding of the tool and get more into it. That way I can just provide that value to the customers. We also wanted to see what would it look like for other people at Lockheed Martin to become rangers and get proficient in the tool. So I was kind of the Guinea pig for Lockheed and we were evaluating just how it would help us with standing it up. >> Yeah, I mean, talk about the process, if you will a little bit and share with us just what you went through in terms of how many hours this required, what kind of work you had to do, what kind of training and the evaluation process. So kind of take us through there from A to Z if you will, on your journey. >> Yeah, well, it started off, we had to get a virtual environment stood up just so that we could do some of the exercises that the ranger certification requires. So that was an intensive process of just making sure we had all the infrastructure in place to run the sandbox environment. And then once we got that up, it was mainly doing the exercises of, you're provided with the data landscape. How are you going to represent it in the tool? That way your users both business and technical users could go in and see the data that's in there and be able to get value, be able to get insights from it. And I think it was challenging for sure, to just figure out what all is required for standing up the Collibra environment 'cause that was a piece of the ranger not only how to work the tool, but how to stand it up, how to administrate it and in an effective way and get the metamodel set up in an effective way that way you have that longterm sustainability. So it was good seeing all of those different pieces come together. And then after you put it all together, I had the interviews with the Collibra team where you go over everything you did. So it definitely helps when you have to explain it to somebody they're asking questions. It sort of provides you with that dry run for when people in your business area and your company are going to be trying to use the tool and they might not understand about it or what value it can provide. So having that interview almost like a dry run that you can then help customers when they have questions and come to you. >> Yeah, how helpful was that? I mean, you raised a point, interesting point and really thought about that. You're basically going before the board, if you will, and answering a lot of how's and why's about your process, your thinking process, and what you put into place and how you implemented the tools, what have you. What did you find interesting about that? Or what did you find out about yourself perhaps in your knowledge base through that process? >> I definitely think it stretched my knowledge base for it. It was definitely nerve wracking having to go in and explain your rationale to people but it turned out well. And I feel like if you can explain something, like if you do your prep work and you're able to explain it to somebody else, it sort of proves that you have the true understanding on your side of it. So it was definitely a lot of prep work to just anticipate all the different questions, figure it out on my side first and then be able to answer it effectively. >> Yeah, we all like softballs, but what about curve balls? Were there any curve balls that perhaps that came up in that evaluation process? They're like, "Oh, no, I hadn't thought of that. Or I didn't anticipate that." You know sometimes it's those curve balls that really keep us on our toes. >> Yeah, I can't remember any specific questions. I do remember getting thrown some of those curve balls where you give the answer you think it's sufficient and then there's the build on follow on questions to that where you're like, "Okay, well, I didn't of that." And so you're trying to think through it on the spot. So I definitely got some of those I don't remember the exact questions but it definitely helps to be prepared. >> Yeah, it keeps you on your toes for sure. You mentioned that the value of this, perhaps within Lockheed Martin and being par, I think a great example for others within your organization. What about just kind of in the data community at large or your colleagues at other enterprises. What would you say to them in terms of the value in pursuing this kind of honor, this kind of recognition and how it could be put into good use in their work on the day-to-day side of operations? >> Well, I think for people who are early on and trying to stand it up, the video curriculum definitely helped me out for sure. Learning about both the administrative side, as well as how to use the tool as an end user. If you can put your mind yourself in the mindset of an end user, that's where you can really figure out where the most value is going to be coming from. And it was also good just getting that hands-on experience in a sandbox environment, that you could build it out and not have to worry about it breaking anything for your organization, but also figuring out how are you going to set up the metamodel and get it working before people populate the tool? 'Cause it's a lot harder to make updates when people are using it. It's good to try to get that as well established upfront as possible. So it's definitely good to get that hands-on experience with standing that up. And I think it helps you sort of think through all the different intricacies and nuances for standing up your own environment and getting the most value for your company. >> You know, let's talk about Lockheed Martin a little bit and obviously I'm going to take, everybody's pretty well familiar obviously with your work. I mean 110,000 employees worldwide footprint and obviously security and data security is a critical importance. What does Collibra do for you in that respect in terms of whatever peace of mind you might get in terms of data privacy and data security and reliability all these things that really factor, I would assume in the Lockheed Martin's operations. >> Yeah, it does and we're still thinking through all of the things especially with classified information, but it being metadata helps a lot. People are a lot less apprehensive knowing that it's just metadata in the tool. You're not actually keeping the data itself in the tool. So that way we can still have our security pieces on the underlying data. It's more for that discovery piece for us and we're able to see what shared reports are out there to be able to get lineage for different systems and help people's just business understanding of the things that are out there and the technical users as well, getting value from the lineage and system setups. So I think being able to lock down the view permissions that helps too, you know, puts people's minds at ease if you're able to say, "Okay, well, we can make sure only certain people are able to see this." You know, we have some of those built-in as well. >> Yeah, I mean, that's something I know you've done a lot at Lockheed in terms of working on the tech side and the non-tech side. And trying to explain policies, governance, and determining accessibility and putting the right governance controls in place. From a data perspective, again, sharing your insights what you have learned in that regard at Lockheed Martin what would you say to your fellow data colleagues if you will, again, at other enterprises in terms of getting that kind of collaboration and feedback and input from just not the, just the tech side but also the non-tech side of your house? >> Yeah, it's definitely important to get that business side as well because the technical users that while they work with it so much they might not understand that business users are not going to know what all of these things mean and that they're going to need some sort of human readable version of it. So we have people from the different business areas both business representatives and technical representatives who we work with on a consistent basis to get that continual feedback. And that way we're getting what are the priorities from both sides and seeing sort of where the synergies are across the different business areas as well. That way we're not duplicating effort, but we're trying to make it a comprehensive tool that everybody can use. >> Now I know that your relationship at Lockheed Martin with Clipper goes back some four years now. So you have a maturing relationship for sure. And the value there seems to be pretty well-documented. What would you say to others in your space, again not only about, just about Collibra, but about the data, evolution of data in general in terms of giving advice to somebody who's looking at this as a career, or maybe somebody who is just now getting into a more sophisticated look at their data footprint? >> Yeah it's definitely a large field. There's always new things to learn. It's always evolving too. So I think that that first step for an individual is to be willing to to learn those new things, to learn those new systems, processes, ways of thinking and take on tasks that sort of stretch you in your career. Things that you might not have said yes to before but saying yes could give you more of a comprehensive view of the business or give you a better data view as well. And from the company, it's just trying to figure out where the most value lies. Trying to get everybody sort of on the same page when it's the wild west it becomes a lot harder to extract value and move towards value. So trying to get everybody standardized but also give them the flexibility for their individual program or business needs but try to keep people to where there's a common understanding of the data. >> Now, spoken by someone who's been there and is doing that, Michael, we appreciate the insights. And once again, congratulations on the honor. It is a well-deserved. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> You bet Michael Kuzma joining us from Lockheed Martin as the Collibra Ranger of the Year. We continue our discussion here, Data Citizens '21 on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Las Vegas! It's theCUBE covering Dell Technologies World 2019 brought to you by Dell Technologies and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back to Las Vegas. Lisa Martin with John Furrier on theCUBE live from Dell Technologies World 2019. This is day one of theCUBE's coverage for three days, two sets, lots going on. I'm pretty sure I can guarantee you a very energetic conversation that John and I are going to have with Dell Boomi CTO Michael Martin. Michael, great to have you on theCUBE. >> It's great to be here. Nice to meet both of you. >> So Michael Dell, the other Michael, talked about (laughs), you probably get that a lot the other Michael, >> No, not really. (laughs) >> Talked about Boomi's a leader in cloud integration this morning during the keynote. Stu Miniman and I had the chance to talk to your CEO Chris McNabb, who came with tons of energy. We want to talk to you about Blockchain. >> Blockchain? >> What, yes! Am I surprising you? >> Yes. >> What are your perspectives on it? Does it live up to the hype? >> Wow, that's a really good question. So, you know it's really funny because I talk to people about Blockchain all the time to be honest with you. And I would say that for as many people that are as excited about the technology and the possibilities, there are equal number of people that are the naysayers. Right, the doubters. And a lot of times the people in those roles are technology people, right? They'll say, well just use a database for that. Right, what, you know, what difference does it make? But they're missing the point. The point is this, what's really happening in the industry is collaboration. Blockchain, it is a technology, but the point is, it's creating relationships in business that have never been created before. So if you go and look at these consortium and work groups that are spinning up, you see a construction consortium, an energy consortium, health care consortium, transportation consortium, supply chain consortium, and you look at the people that belong to those, it is amazing the collaboration between these companies because of Blockchain as a concept. So really it is the, it's transforming the industry. So my advice is either get on board or you're going to be left behind. >> All right, so first of all, we're both pro Blockchain everyone knows, theCUBE knows, I love Blockchain. I love the idea of token economics. The ICO's initial coin offerings has really poisoned the market, I think, in the general market. Because people see Bitcoin, Ethereum, all kinds of currency, it's a lot of fraud outside the United States, and the government's cracked down on it, we know that story. But the fundamental technology is, changes the relationship between people and data, and their interactions. And so I think, I agree with you 100%, but also it's a cultural shift, too. You're thinking about new ways to do something. And I always say, I'd love to get your reaction to this Michael, because I always say to people, hey when the internet started the web, it was dial-up, it was the slowest piece of you know what you could ever see. But it was the first time we saw web pages, we could self-serve ourselves with information. So I think people tend to compare what I could do alternatively with a database to the early stages of where Blockchain, you had some latency issues or you're doing them real time, no problem, don't do Blockchain. But if you look at the benefits of what it could provide from supply chain to community, they're there. And it's disrupting the business model behind it. >> It is. >> And I think that is a part of the clue train that people can jump on and understand that if they just take the leap of faith, kind of like the web. There were people who poopooed the world wide web. It's a toy for people, aww it's nothing. >> Yeah. >> The graphics are horrible. Speeds are slow. No one really uses it. (laughs) >> You could say the same thing about cloud, and IOT, right? Think about 3 years ago, everybody's IOT drug, right? Everybody's happy, IOT IOT, right? But now? I'll make a provocative statement that I now say that I'm comfortable in saying is, if it's a business, you are not incorporating device data, either as a producer or a consumer, you're already behind. You're already behind, and so, I will probably say the same thing about Blockchain in 24 to 36 months. If you are not working on a strategy to have your business be more competitive by incorporating Blockchain, you're going to be behind. >> Talk about where people can get on the clue train here, because it's a good point. There's always the early adopters, the people who take the arrows in the back, so to speak. The entrepreneurs, and we've seen some cases of that. But it's maturing fast. Where are the entry points for say, a technologist, a business person, is there a pattern that you see that might be a good way for someone to jump in. How do they jump in? I mean it's certainly you can join a community, and get involved, but I mean, in terms of holistically thinking about impact to their business, to their customers, where should they be staring at for Blockchain? >> I always have two answers. One is, my business hat, and one is my technical hat. One is, join a consortium. Join a work group. Learn what others are doing. And look at your competition, right? There's a vast amount of data out there. So, just go ahead and search on your competition. It's very easy. And I guarantee that if there's anything that's motivating, it's what your competition's doing. But the second answer is this, get your hands dirty. Learn the technology, right? Don't be a PowerPoint strategy. Learn the technology. For sure. So understand what's there. Understand the strengths and weaknesses of Ethereum. Understand the strengths and weaknesses of Hyperledger Fabric. Start learning the technology. Really get your hands on it. Because that's what we had to do in Boomi, is. We've been also been looking at it for roughly two years. And it was last year that we came out with our support, because of working with our customers and partners, that we too had to work on a strategy of where is Boomi positioned, and how does it bring value to the market for our customers for Blockchain? For us, we had to just start doing it. So now in the past year, we're doing it, and we too, belong to different alliances, and participate and can't go without saying that with Dell technologies very much invested in Blockchain across the business, especially VMWare, we reap the benefits at a much broader scale. So we're just been in a great position of learning and understanding where Boomi fits. >> Why is it, if you look at your existing customers I mentioned before we spoke with Chris McNabb about an hour or two ago, I think I saw on Boomi.com there's over 8200 customers that you guys have, Rory Read energetically talked about how much growth you guys have achieved, the numbers of customers, sheer number of huge that you're adding monthly, quarterly. When you talk to your existing integration customers, what are those conversations, kind of along the lines of John's question, where you're talking to these customers about why integration is so important as it relates to Blockchain? >> Well, first of all, most importantly is customers need an integration strategy. They just need a strategy on integration. So let's push Blockchain aside, right? Like Michael Dell and everybody else says, "Every business needs to integrate." And let's fact it, the majority by far of customers that need an integration strategy are integrating data between legacy on-premise solutions in cloud, right? Once they get established of understanding the processes and the procedures in bringing in a solution like Boomi, it's a natural extension that boom, you already have Blockchain support, you're just extending your integration strategy to now basically on board. >> What kind of Blockchain features do you have in the product and the road map? What's it looking like? Where's the use case for you guys? >> So, I'll tell you what we're seeing. First of all, our support is Ethereum and Hyperledger Fabric, it's also fully compatible with VMWare announced their beta in Blockchain at the end of last year, so we're fully compatible with the VMWare Blockchain, with is Ethereum-based. And for us, most of the conversations that we have, now of course, we all know that there is every industry is dabbling or really trying to be a front runner. But the clear front runner for us is Trusted Lineage. Track and trace, it's really tracking supply chain. That is by far the most predominate scenario that we see. Our partners and customers we work with seem to be the most interested in. >> It's interesting, digital is all supply chain. >> Yes. >> It's connected. >> Yep. >> And then, connecting the analog is interesting too. Some, a lot of examples we see a lot is shipping goods, a physical activity. >> Right. >> Where there's a digital component in it, that the ledger plays beautifully for. So, it's the confluence of physical world meets digital where now you have human relationships to a digital connected network. >> That's right. >> And if everything's connected, everything can be a supply chain at some point if you're looking at data. >> Right. >> Your thoughts on that? >> It's interesting you bring this up, because we've been talking like it's a business-automated process. You run something, it integrates, it pulls data, it transforms data, but interestingly enough, the other thing that people tend to think about is, they tend to think of Blockchain in a silo, right? I'm just installing Blockchain and here it's over humming in the corner, waiting to do something, right? But that's not going to be the case. Interestingly enough, people also think that's just integrating applications back and forth, but when you pull up a phone, and maybe do a financial transaction, you're really communicating with a smart contract in the back end. You are actually a person communicating or integrating with a smart contract. This is the beauty that people now, if they just to start thinking about it, and they learn it, is, oh, okay. Again, Boomi will help you integrate data back and forth between smart contracts. But it also presents you the user interface for a smart contract. >> And it removes the middle, intermediaries or middlemen and so that means in software is that you're going to go direct software-to-software with these smart contracts. So that's one. But also just in the real world, if you and I are online, and we want to do something, we could have a digital smart contract, no lawyers are involved, we can just agree and then it's immutable. >> That's right. >> So that's another benefit. Again, these efficiencies come from things being taken away. >> That's right. >> This seems to be a big part of the Blockchain. >> It is. As a matter of fact, geolocation's another example. Whether it be freight, or ships, or trains, we're already seeing cases where based on geolocation, it's denoting where the goods are, based on geolocation. A human's not even involved at all. It's all automated based on proximity. Right? It's all like this ecosystem is becoming just alive in itself and just starting to be self-building. >> What do you hearing of the integration of Blockchain into Boomi's product road map? What are you hearing from your customers, and your partners? >> For us, I will tell you that given that we've been working on this, there's no question that the validation and quality of what we have is because of our customers and partners. But, hands down, everybody's still on the journey. Everybody's trying to figure out. >> Early innings? >> Very much so. The other thing I need to point out, just to make sure the viewers know this, is Boomi itself is not a Blockchain, right? It's not a mechanism by which you install a Blockchain node, right? It is the ability to interact with a Blockchain that's pre-existing. That's very important because sometimes people look at us like, "Oh is Boomi helping me deploy a Blockchain?" It's like, no. We're helping you integrate your business with a pre-existing Blockchain, and there's a big difference there. >> And that's the partnership consortiums that you guys are a part of, that's the important part of you have mentioning to any consortiums. Not so much, you need to stand up your own, Blockchain, Hyperledger, for instance, patchy license, no problem. >> Right. >> So that's kind of where that integration point is. Okay, what's about speed and performance? Speeds and feeds because again, I've known about the latency issues around how tokens are being written to the Blockchain. It's not super fast, it's some innovations happening, so that's also I would say limiting the scope of the early market adopters. But if you're doing just a trivial transaction, where latency's not involved, it's a great use case. Where do you see the performance of Blockchain? How is that coming along, and what's your view on that? What do you see timetable-wise, and just if you throw a dart at the board, you know? >> Everybody want to aspire to be, to overcome the highest volume transactions today, which we know as probably credit card companies, right? Like that's the benchmark. And I will tell you that there is a ton of research going into performance. For example, today Boomi and VMWare work with the University of San Diego's Supercomputing lab. It's commonly known as, the short name is Block Lab. So, we actually are working together. >> I saw that, there was a recent announcement? >> It got announced not too recent, but I think it could have been at the end of last year was the first press that we did. Coming up now in May or June, we will, there will be another press release of what's going on. So, from a performance standpoint, again we are many universities, as you could imagine, it's a great university project for just that reason. And so we're involved in that together with VMWare. >> So with the developer involvement now, Ethereum attracted a lot of developers. >> Yep. >> And then there was some ease of use issues, performance, natural, then other languages, other Blockchain approaches came out. Where are the developers gravitating towards now, do you see? Because Solidity is a unique language for Ethereum but it's not as easy as Java script, for instance. >> Right. >> You got a Java script guy out there who can sling Hyperledger, possibly, so I'm starting to see tool chains, and how developers' orientations or preferences come into play. >> You do. I mean, whoever heard of Solidity, right, before Ethereum came on the scene, right? That's a whole different programming language. But the two front runners by far is Ethereum and Hyperledger Fabric. Hyperledger Fabric, I mean, having support for Java toolkit, so that's going to cater to a much broader audience. So you've seen the evolution of both of these catering to more mainstream languages like Go and Java. It's going to happen. Yeah, it's going to happen. >> Predictions? >> Predictions? >> Yeah, when are we going to see Blockchain hit the mainstream? What's the tipping point? It may be a better question, tipping point, what's the catalyst? Tipping points? What's your, just your mental model? How do you think about looking at the signals from the marketplace to see a tipping point? For mainstream, at least awareness? >> Based on what we're seeing in the industry today, I believe that enterprise businesses will have to be integrating with Blockchains in 12 to 24 months. 24 months is probably the max, but 12 to 24 months, I don't think you're going to have a Fortune 100 company that's not integrating with a Blockchain, for one reason or another. Whether it be, currency or Trusted Lineage. But 24 months. >> Wow! Michael, Boomi, Blockchain, I feel like I need to say bazinga! I need another B-word. >> Boom. >> I promised you boom, Boomi, Blockchain. I promised you an energetic interview and I think these guys just gave it to you. Thank you so much, Michael, for joining John and me on the program. Excited to see what comes up and hopefully see it at Dell Boomi World. >> Yes, thank you very much for having me, it's great. >> Oh, our pleasure. For John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin and you're watching theCUBE Live from Dell Technologies World 2019 in Las Vegas. Thanks for watching! (electronic music)