>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017, brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone, we're here live in San Francisco for theCUBE's special exclusive coverage of Cisco's inaugural event, DevNet Create, a foray into the developer opensource world as they extend their classic DevNet core developer program, three years old now, going into the opensource world, this is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Peter Burris, our next guest is Matt Howard, EVP and CMO of Sonatype, knows something about opensource, Matt, great to have you on theCUBE, thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> So first, talk about Sonatype, what do you guys do? Give a quick minute to describe the company, then I got some pointed questions for you. >> Well, we provide tools and intelligence to modern development organizations to basically reinvent how opensource components are flowing through the pipeline, through the value chain, through the development lifecycle. >> You guys are a service, SaaS service, are you guys a subscription? >> It's a subscription service, and we provide two products, there's a product which is a repository manager called Nexus where you store, organize, and distribute software binaries into the development lifecycle, and then there's a second server product called Nexus IQ, which provides intelligence on top of those binary, so think of it as like FDA food labeling database, so if you're looking at a bag of potato chips as a consumer, you can see that there's calories, sugar, salt, it's gluten-free. If you're looking at a software binary, you're able to see metadata that we provide, which allows you as a developer to make intelligent decisions with respect to, this component's good for my application 'cause it's properly licensed, or this component's good for my application because it doesn't have any-- >> So you're a verifying code, basically, in a way. >> Yeah, absolutely. Verifying and qualifying the opensource-- >> John: And the problem you solve for the customer as well. >> The customer basically gets to build applications at scale, at speed, with quality opensource components. >> So you take the worries off, like, with the licensing, does it work well, you're like Yelp for software? There're comments? >> Sort of, more like Amazon reviews for opensource binaries. >> Okay, great, cool, thanks for taking the time. So we was just talking in our intro, opensource, I'm old enough to know when we used to pirate software, and then opensource, woo, this is great, and then it became a tier two in the enterprise player, Red Hat brought it to tier one. It's booming. Communities are changing. You're in the middle of it, what's happening? Give us your take on how opensource is evolving, because it's the classic case of cliche, opensource, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants before me, and now the next generation is standing on the current generations of shoulders, a new generation's happening, what's going on? >> So, just think of supply and demand, simple supply. We live in a world right now where development organizations are facing an infinite supply of opensource, there's a thousand new opensource projects a day, 10,000 new versions and 14 releases per year. The supply is massive. And in a world where supply is incredible, consumption is equally incredible, last year alone, there were 52 billion download requests from Maven Central for Java binaries, 50 billion-plus requests for NPM packages in the JavaScript ecosystem, so we are basically dealing with a world where software is no longer a marginal cost to doing business, it is the business. Developers are king, developers are the lifeblood that's flowing through every great enterprise today, because innovation is ultimately the thing that will allow companies to compete and win on a global playing field! >> I mean, it's almost intoxicating for these guys who are just drinking from the trough of free software, because if you compound the new projects with the fact that Google and these guys are donating awesome libraries, Amazons, machine-learning stuff, it's not something to shake a stick at, it's great software! >> Yeah! >> TensorFlow, Spanner, I mean, all this stuff-- >> It's great software, and just think, in a world of infinite choice, which is the world we're living in, how do you make the best choice? >> So where's the growth coming from? Peter and I were speculating that, in talking to Abby Kearns yesterday from Cloud Foundry, and then with the Cloud Native Foundation, a lot of money's coming in so the business model for players and vendors are coming in, and suppliers now helping out and donating software, but we're speculating that there's a whole growth area that's different than we've seen before. Are we on that? Your comment to that, your thoughts on where this evolution's coming from, the next wave, is it horizontal? >> Our view is that the devops transformation from waterfall-native development to devops-native software development is happening and it's real, and it's arguably in the early days, but it's no stopping that train now. As organizations continue to reconcile demand from board members and shareholders and CEOs, how do you remain relevant, how do you be, put yourself into a position where you're innovating with software fast enough to remain competitive? And that's a tremendous pressure, and it's driving transformational change like devops, and so as that demand for speed continues to grow, we think it only increases the appetite for opensource, and it creates opportunities for organizations like ours to basically automate how that opensource innovation happens. >> We do a lot of crowd chats, to surface the landscape and the common theme that comes up is, oh, your organizational mindset has to change, and were commenting, Peter and I were talking yesterday about, if your org's not set up, you'll have, what's the law? >> Conway's law. >> Conway's law, where the output matches the organization, but the bigger question is, Ford CEO got fired, he's been in the job for less than four years, he didn't have time to transform, so the question is, how does opensource help people transform faster, do you have any observations around that? Because that's the number one question we get is, okay, I need to configure resources to do that, and then the other theme that we're hearing, I'd love to get your reaction on is, "Oh my God, I'm going to lose my job through automation." And certainly Cisco has networking guys who are looking down the barrel of potentially being irrelevant if they don't make the network programmable, so this is, we've lived through cycles, is it the mainframe guys who kind of lose their jobs, kind of thing going on? Or is it a transformative opportunity for the people as well? >> Yeah, it's a great question, there's a lot there, but I think the notion that they say software eats the world, a different way of viewing is automation eats the world, and if you look at, we refer to the 100-10-1 rule, today, in every large IT organization, you got 100 developers for every 10 IT operations professionals for every one security professional. It's impossible for the application security professionals to maintain governance over 100 software developers. If the old way of doing something like application security in this world where we're talking about infinite supply of opensource, needs to be automated with machine intelligence, it needs to be scalable early, everywhere, and throughout the entire development lifecycle, and unless it's not, you're going to basically get some of the benefit of opensource, but not all of the benefit of opensource. >> I want to push you a little bit in this, Matt, because, one might argue, and I'm going to be a little bit apocryphal here for a second, but one might argue that we also have an infinite supply of different types of bubblegum. And at the end of the day, one can say, "Well, do we need another bubblegum?" And we may or may not, and yet we do. So the reason why I'm bringing that up is I want to square the infinite supply, which I don't disagree with, with the idea that, certainly our clients, especially the big data side, are still concerned about the fact that they can't find tooling, or combinations of opensource tooling, that can help them with their use case. And so as you think about, one of the things that intrigued me about what your company does is the idea of to what degree can you start with a business problem, use that business problem to do some design work, and then based on that, start finding the tooling that will be most appropriate for solving the problem. >> Yeah, it's a great question, and I think it goes back to this idea of automation, let's just give a real world use case, this is one of many, but if the demand for speed and innovation is what shareholders, boards, and CEOs are looking for out of their IT organizations and their development teams, then the first thing you do, in the theory of constraints is you look for where is the friction, right? So theory of constraints basically points to something like the process inside of a large financial organization that involves a developer requesting approval for using an opensource component. How long does that take? How many people are involved in that process? How many hours, how many dollars? Does it have to be that hard? Or can you basically create policy, and define policy, and build, effectively, a firewall that then automatically governs the flow of opensource, healthy opensource components, into the development lifecycle? With no human intervention at pace, right? And that's the idea of what we're doing when we talk about scaling opensource innovation early, everywhere, and across the entire development lifecycle, it starts at the perimeter, the moment the development requests the opensource component for use, it has to be automated, you can't afford to take three months to approve it, he needs it now! >> So let me turn that around, and see if this is a service that you are providing, or actually could provide. Given that you probably visibility into a lot of the problems that the developer's trying to solve, and therefore, their ability to check opensource in and out from a variety of different sources, are you also gaining visibility in the types of stuff that people can't find, and making that information available to the world about, here's some of the places where the opensource world could step up and do perhaps a better job of delivering that software? And I'm specifically thinking of the big data universe, because there's so many, for example, I got a client, big financial institution, who is tearing his hair out right now trying to come up with some standard components for complex machine-learning pipelines. Real, real hard job, a lot of different tools, they work together at some level, but they're not solving the problem, 'cause they're more focused on solving each other project's problem. Am I making this? >> You are making a lot of sense, and you should introduce us to your friend, because we would love to have a conversation and talk exactly how it is that you can create prescriptive architectures with opensource components to remove friction back to the theory of constraints concept, I mean, this process of innovation has to flatten out, and we are very narrowly focused on one particular piece of that pipeline, and it is the making sure that the development organization is benefiting from all of the greatness that opensource has to offer, but none of the bad, and you have to do that with automation. >> So just really quick, John, for those of you who don't know, the theory of constraints, to a computer science person, looks like Amdahl's law. Speed up that which you do most frequently, for those of you who've ever done computer design. >> Herbie the Boy Scout. >> Exactly, so it's speed up the thing that is causing the most pain. >> Right, right, right. >> So the question I have for you this, okay, given what you guys do, which is a great service, cutting edge, it's in the devops wheelhouse, so, what is, in your opinion, the most important metric for your customer's success, vis a vis devops, okay, I'm in, I've been hearing about this cloud native thing and devops, we've got to change to Agile, we wrote a manifesto, we changed the organization, what is the important metric that you think they should look for for success? >> You know, there's a lot of metrics, there's no one answer, but I'll give you a really great one, since you mentioned Red Hat earlier. Red Hat is an amazing company that has probably done more for the evolution of opensource than anyone. They have a phenomenal track record of managing RHEL, the Red Hat Enterprise Linux stack, upstream and downstream, to the point where today, they publicly tell that the Red Hat Summit just recently in Boston, I think it's a day or two meantime to repair for a zero-day vulnerability. They understand the supply chain for RHEL extremely well, and from our perspective, we are trying to create the same type of hygiene for custom software development that RHEL has long practiced in support of Red Hat, Red Hat has long practiced in support of RHEL, and so meantime to repair, for example. If a zero-day vulnerability hits, do you have a software bill of materials? Are you wondering where that particular component is? Do you even have the component? How many applications in production are affected? I mean, this is a real-world scenario, just two weeks ago, with Struts 2, how many organizations are still working today to figure out the answer to that question? You'd be surprised, it takes organizations months-- >> Peter: But this is more than a library. >> This is more than a library. >> So explain why it's more than a library. >> Struts 2? >> No, what you're doing. >> What we're basically doing is imagining a software supply chain, so step back and imagine a world where you could build software applications the same way that Toyota builds cars. You have Deming's principles, which says you basically take and source the components or the parts from the fewer suppliers, and you source the absolute best parts, and you track and trace the location of those parts to every step of the supply chain all the way into production, so that Toyota recently had to conduct an orderly and effective recall for four million Takata airbags. Right? In software terms, the next time you're basically sitting on top of a zero day, you need the equivalent of that orderly effective recall so you can in a matter of minutes, not months, patch that vulnerability. >> Hence why you use Goldratt's theory of constraints, so in many respects, this is a digital supply chain tool? >> We believe it's software supply chain automation. >> What about digital? Can I also think about how digital objects can be included in that? Again, going back-- >> Containers? >> Going back to the big data notion? >> Yeah, absolutely, this is, supply chain theory is well understood in a physical goods world, certainly, if you look at how physical goods move through a supply chain, and you come to grips with what's happening in digital transformation today and the evolution of devops and the proliferation of opensource, continuous integration, continuous delivery, speed is king, it's all going in the direction of a supply chain. >> So, when you have so much bubblegum, as Peter said, after it loses its flavor, you get a new piece, right? So, same with software. Final question for you. You guys are doing well, I can imagine that operationally, as coming to operational as opensource, you're a key component there, and that seems like a good opportunity. How early are you on that operational progress? I mean, you just get started, you're making some money, which is good. >> To be frank-- >> You're the customer on the journey, in other words, people realize, "I got a operation on," so they're just doing it, not having a checks and balance. >> Our business is really interesting in the sense that product market fit for any young company can take quite a while, and we're fortunate enough to have a CEO who is remarkably patient and savvy and experienced, his name is Wayne Jackson, for anybody knows, here at the Cisco conference, he was previously the CEO of Sourcefire, so an interesting connection there, but patience is key, and we're being rewarded right now because all of the trends that you guys have already talked about here, and everything we've talked about at Cisco DevNet point to a simple fact, which is that software is key to how companies will compete and win in the future, and as long as that's true, they're going to be looking for ways to improve innovation. Right now, our business is early, we're still creating budget in some situations, but that's increasingly changing, and I would say that you should expect our business to continue to grow-- >> So people are operationalizing opensource, and they're getting serious about some of these things-- >> We're seeing budget now that we didn't see last year, for operationalizing the flow of opensource into a devops-- >> Final, final question, since I want to get your take on the show, Cisco's moves here into this world, obviously, a good move in our opinion, I'm sure you agree, risky for them, a good move, progress, what should they do next? Your thoughts and reaction to DevNet Create, 'cause man, they got DevNet, a growing, robust community of Cisco developers. DevNet Create, a new opportunity, what's your thoughts? >> I've learned a lot, I'm glad to be here, and just saw some things yesterday that make it very, very clear that DevNet Create and what Cisco's doing with it is a great move, I mean, my personal belief is that developers are king, and as you expose core services, network services to developers, an innovation happens, and value gets created, and so they've done so much at the network layer for so many years, and if they're now exposing that network sort of innovation to developers, it'll be exciting to see what kind of innovation happens. >> Matt, thanks for coming on theCUBE, really appreciate it, I'm glad we got you in, great to meet you last night, and congratulations on your startup that you're working with, and growth, and been around the industry a long time, you've seen a lot of waves, and appreciate the insight here on theCUBE, appreciate it. >> Appreciate you having me. >> Alright, we are live in San Francisco for exclusive coverage of Cisco's inaugural event DevNet Create, I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris, stay with us for more day two coverage after this short break. >> Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the Senior Director of Strategy and Planning for Cisco.

(electronic music) >> Voiceover: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering DevNet Create 2017. Brought to you by Cisco. >> Welcome back everyone. We are here live in San Francisco for Cisco's inaugural event. First time they're having DevNet Create, an extension of their classic DevNet program. I guess not so classic, Peter, it's been only three years. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, and here my co-host, Peter Burris, general manager of Wikibon.com. Our next guest is Jim Bugwadia who is the founder and CEO of Nirmata startup. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, John. >> So, thanks for coming on. First question before you get started, what do you guys do? Take a minute to talk about what your company does, and why are you here at Cisco DevNet Create. >> Right. Yes, so Nirmata is a SaaS for cloud application delivery and management. So what we do is, you can think of us as a logical layer above the big three cloud providers as well as private clouds, and we provide a common set of application services for developers who are looking at multi-cloud use cases, and even edge computing moving forward, to provide a common layer. >> I was just covering SAP Sapphire last week, again, on multi-cloud again coming out. Multi-cloud is the hottest trend right now in terms of what people are seeing. And that makes a lot of sense. No one cloud is going to win it all. There's never been a winner-take-all, Jerry Chen at Greylock said that many years ago. Turns out he's right. However, you got the big cloud guys lining up. The question is, multi-cloud, is it reality yet? Or it's just hybrid IT, hybrid cloud, just the stepping stone to potentially a multi-cloud world. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, good point, and hybrid is certainly the stepping stone but what we're seeing more and more is the application sort of being chosen to go on one cloud or another. So it's not at a point where we're seeing the same application span multiple clouds but based on the workload, based on the application type, enterprises deciding whether to put them on private cloud, public cloud or a choice of public clouds. >> So, define multi-cloud real quick. Take a minute. So let's get your definition of what is multi-cloud. >> Right, so to me it's a combination of being able to choose your infrastructure services primarily, and being able to have a portable set of application components and constructs which can span either these public or private cloud deployments. And today of course it's a lot of momentum towards public cloud but private cloud is also going to continue to grow and will continue to grow for various reasons. So having that choice of deployment is really what we're seeing as multi-cloud today. >> And of course put a plug in for Wikibon and Peter's research. They just put out on a new true private cloud report and they had it pegged at a market of what? 260 billion? >> For a true private cloud, yeah! >> For a true private cloud, yes. So you're right true is going to be big. >> And John, just another point. We are actually doing a multi-cloud crowd chat tomorrow at 9 a.m. Pacific. So, anybody that wants to participate in a crowd chat about multi-cloud, 9 a.m. Pacific tomorrow. >> Okay, good plug, check it out Crowdchat.net, check it, it's going to be right there on the front page. You should get on that Jim. But I want to ask you to go to the next level. Multi-cloud, let's peel the onion a little bit. Does that mean I can run workloads on any cloud, or do I put a workload on one cloud and then I put another workload on another cloud. Or, can this workload, if the capacity is bad, move over to another cloud. It just smells like a latency problem to me. It just seems like ungettable at this point. What's your definition, is that multi-cloud? What is multi-cloud? >> Yeah, so what is happening in the developer space of course with the big adoption of containers and the push towards containerizing applications, now we have that ability to rapidly spin up services as needed on different cloud platforms. And really, a cloud becomes a place where you can have a container host and an end-point for deployment. So you combine that with management services, application management services like Nirmata, and now you do have that choice of being able to set policies either based on demand and scale or usage, or based on recovery from faults in the infrastructure to span different clouds from the same workload. >> Okay, next question for you. Great to have you on, great subject matter expert there. Thanks for answering the questions. But this one is a little bit different. If I want to secure cloud, with say Amazon, put my stuff there. You've seen mostly Test/Dev, and the Oracle CEO talks about this all the time . It's pretty much all Test/Dev. Okay that ship has sailed. Pretty much no brainer. What percentage of the workloads now, or what workloads specifically are going beyond Test and Dev that you've seen that are going into production. Because now with hybrid, it opens up more range of apps beyond Test and Dev. So certainly Test/Dev is happening, we get that. Low hanging fruit. What's the next level? >> Yeah, so I think the one way to categorize it is systems of engagement and systems of record of course. So we're seeing anything public facing whether it's mobile, web-app properties, web applications, more and more micro-services style SOA applications. Those are the next wave that's going to cloud. Data residence tends to stay with private cloud for a longer term. But even that, over time we're seeing with VPC is, with the right security constructs, being a viable public cloud, being a viable option there. >> One of the top questions we have in our CrowdChat community, that comes up all the time around DevOps. So I'm going to get your thoughts on this. What advise would you give to operations practitioners who are afraid DevOps is going to automate away their jobs. >> Jim Bugwadia: Yeah (laughing) So, yeah, great great question, and that's very far away from the reality. What's happening with DevOps is now we're getting to a better definition of what Devs need to be concerned about and what Ops needs to be concerned about, right?. And again pointing to containers as one of the enablers, microservices as another. We're seeing where application developers want to operate their own applications. They want control of their destiny. But the furthest thing from their minds is to worry about IP addressing and security concerns and things like that. So there is, and it's interesting, because enterprise DevOps is very different than what you would find in a start-up or in a cloud or internet giant, right. And there is no mythical enterprise developer who can do all of this themselves. You need a Dev and you need an Ops. >> The mythical mammoth kind of goes out of the window. We had CMO, EVP earlier on. We had, it was Matt Howard, and he is an experienced guy. But he was saying, 100 developers have ten IT supports and one security person. He sees that completely flipping around. So if you take this whole notion of the jobs are going to go away. Which I think is BS. Certainly things have to be automated, machine learning is great for that. But you can see the shift happening. There're certainly more security guys. More operational IT guys not doing escalation, doing actual, real IT. So I think, there's going to be a shift of jobs. So you might be displaced functionally. You're a plumber, now you you're a machinist. I get that. Where are the hot jobs? If that's the case, if you believe, which I think you do. >> Right >> Where are they going to shift to, what does the job profile look like. >> Yes, much like we're seeing even in software development itself. The level of abstraction and the amount of knowledge that has to be absorbed, keeps increasing. So it's more similarly in operations what we're seeing, like you mentioned, rather than being something, doing something at a low level. Now its understanding what are the best policies for, let's take security as an example, in AWS, in Azure, in private cloud. How do you now make sure you have the right visibility and governance with things like containers, microservices, where the applications are so dynamic, it cross various environments. So it is a transformation in the type of role and skill-set, and I think it's for the better. Because now you really have time to step back and look at this holistically and contribute back to the business. >> Here's a philosophical question for you, and may be Peter you could weigh in too. What single misperception about DevOps would you like to see change out in there? As people try to grasp DevOps, we hear it's a movement, we hear it's a playbook, with this, it's an Agile Manifesto, grow organically, you know, Conway's Law, All kinds of stuff we've been talking about so bottom line, what is the most misunderstood or misperceived issue about DevOps >> Yeah >> That you would like to see changed. >> Yeah, so to us, the one issue that we always emphasize is there will be a Dev and there will be an Ops. And any product that tries to minimize one role or another is not a good fit for enterprises. So, what's needed is a transformation of that Ops role to the role, from just being the direct service provider, the hands-on ops person to more of a governance curation. In some ways an architect type of role, right? And that's what we're seeing, is that Ops role is not diminished. It's actually heightened and highlighted. >> John Furrier: Great point! >> We've already talked about it in 6many respects, the idea that we're going to go from application development to pushing a button and having the business suddenly run differently is just silly. At the end of the day-- >> You think people think that's what DevOps is? Just a magical, rub the bottom and the genie pops out. >> There is a lot of people that think that DevOps is a step on the path to no Ops. To having no people involved in operations at all. And that's just not going to happen. >> So you believe that Ops is still going to be relevant. >> I think Ops is always going to be relevant. I think that Dev is going to evolve to better understand, and have greater data and visibility on what's going on in Ops. And Ops going to have greater predictability in what's going to happen from a development standpoint. So I think we will see a combination of roles. We'll see the productivity of Ops continue to grow. But the idea that this is going to be, that there is magic in here, and Gandalf is going to wave his DevOps-- >> What would Trump say about DevOps? Oh we're great at it! I've done it 10 times! >> What would Trump say? Trump would say, I think Trump would say, "I've never been to Mexico." (laughing) >> I'm going to make it amazing. We'll build a wall of IT. (laughing) I needed to bring that in, sorry, laughing about Trump earlier with the whole thing going on. Okay. Good point. Some are saying in the community, not no Ops, but new Ops. It's a new kind of Ops. >> Yeah, the way we see it is that what we think of as DevOps is splitting more into functions like application operations, security operations, and infrastructure. So really all three need to be accommodated and they need to work together. And that's sort of how we have built up Nirmata as our private software. >> And there is ops for all three of them. In fact, the last conversation we had John was, and test you on this, is that, it is the inherent quality, or the inherent distributed quality of a lot of the new applications that we're building. Absolutely dictates that we start to parse Ops up differently. >> Jim Bugwadia: Right. >> That it's no longer running it on a single machine or on a single database with a network out in a client server domain. It is inherently distributed and therefore the tasks and the responsibilities and roles associated with the operations side of that are themselves going to be inherently distributed. Which requires new ways of thinking, new conventions, and new tools. >> Jim, I want to give you a final word. Give a plug about your company. Thanks for sharing your insight by the way. Appreciate you answering the questions. What do you guys do and what's up with the company? Talk about the status, the employees, how much funding you have, how much revenue you have, what's your goals. Go lay it all out. >> Yeah, so myself, my other co-founders, our background is enterprise software and we come from a network management background where we build centralized management systems for complex networks, distributed devices, etc. What we saw happening is with cloud applications are starting to mimic that complexity. And as applications move from back-office productivity functions to these hybrid distributed mission-critical, real-life functions that we use day-to-day, there is a need for this enterprise-grade management. So that's the type of centralized management we're delivering as a service to our customers. >> You have to become network of provides so you have to have app management. I mean that's pretty much what you're doing you're bringing network management paradigm to apps versus a monolithic app in some dashboard and now it's all over the place. Multiple form factors, access methods. It's a network in the app. >> It is. Yeah and today the customers are left to cobble together about 12 to 14 different tools correlate data across tools. And what we need to do is move beyond systems with just observe and report. To being able to observe, react and learn, and do things in real-time. >> John: Be actionable. >> Exactly! >> So you guys are simplifying that process. >> Jim Bugwadia: Absolutely. >> And is it a single pane of glass, is it a service, is it a software product? >> It's a cloud service. So you can think of us an overlay across any public or private cloud. And early on, we kind of decided, the best way to deliver infrastructure is as a service and we've learned that in real life. >> People who are doing that are winning. That's what Trump would say, winning. (laughing) He would say, I am going to the data lake swamp. >> Who knows what he'd say. (laughing) >> Of course I couldn't get that in there. Drain the swamp, he didn't get the data lake swamp. >> No I got it. >> Okay, go ahead. >> So we've built Nirmata completely as a cloud service because of that philosophy that we started with. And we want to give developers and DevOps teams the choice of any platform, right? And today it's all about cloud. The edge is also very real. We have industrial IoT customers who are looking at containers. >> Yes, your world is getting your TAM, your total customer market is getting bigger and bigger as every IoT device has data on it. Because data is an asset. It's part of the app. >> I want to bring that up. Just if we have just a second John. >> Yeah go ahead. >> I'm curious because on of the things that we believe is that increasingly the whole concept of digital business is how will data feature as an asset in your business? Especially if we're creating sustaining customers. Totally buy in to the idea of the external view versus the internal view. For customers versus for employees. That for customer side, the engagement side is really driving a lot of this. But at some point in time it makes me wonder if we're going to move from a DevOps orientation to a data ops orientation. Where at the end of the day, the physics of how things run is, where is the data, what saliency to get at it, how do you handle the state of it, etc. Do you foresee a... at least, or an extension of the DevOps concept so the data as an object is something that we act upon, and we understand what role it plays in this whole bringing together a lot of piece parts to create distributed digital systems. >> I think so. Starting point of that, that we're seeing is the split between data services and behavioral services. Look, any form of programming it's all about packaging behaviors and data, right? So whether it's in a programming language, and with object-oriented it was about putting things together in a object. Now with service oriented in microservices, it's the service bound rates. So having the data services and then having the behavioral services separated gives a lot of flexibility. And then being able to move the compute to the data versus the other way around that is also very interesting. So we're working with some partners where we're looking at cross cloud data. Can we, as even services in containers are spun up under one cloud. Can we clone an entire environment into another cloud. Can we migrate some of the data efficiently? Challenges like that. >> Well Jim, we're going to recruit you. I just made a note to ping you for tomorrow's CrowdChat. To see if you could make it or one of your co-founders. Love to get your input at the community as part of sharing insight into this really fast growing, changing world of management with all this complexity. I mean there are more tools out there than ever before. They are all different types, a lot of complexity. So we hope to bring you back in the studio, or have you come in via Skype, or CrowdChat. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage. Cisco's inaugural event, DevNet Create. I'm John Furrier, Peter Burris. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (electronic music) Hi, I'm April Mitchell, and I'm the senior director of strategy and planning for--