>> Announcer: From around the globe, It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is theCUBE's ongoing coverage where we go out to the events, in this case virtually to extract the signal from the noise. Now we're going to talk about one of the deepest customer relationships in the tech business with Piet Bill who is the IBM managing director for American Express. Piet, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So as I said, this is one of the deepest vendor-client relationships. I mean, it's more than that. It's just, you're not a vendor. You're a partner, a very deep relationship many many decades, plus executives know each other. There's been some senior executives from American Express, as I recall came over to IBM of course, famously Lou Gerstner. But, talk about the, just give us the overview of the evolution of that partnership. >> Yeah well, as you rightly mentioned, the relationship is long and deep. It's over a hundred years. I mean the original deal was probably around the combine clocks and scales and all that kind of stuff, and it evolved over time. But what it does indeed create is a long, deep, lasting relationship as a fundament for doing business. And yeah, that business has gone through a lot of cycles over the last decade. So as you say, from buying stuff but I would say over time evolving really into a partnership around services, mutual business back and forth, exchanging executives on board level. American Express executives on the board of IBM and vice versa. So yeah, it's a very, very deep long relationship of two iconic companies in Manhattan. >> Yeah, well so it's got to be more than just buying stuff. Obviously, there's a lot of business being transacted, but you've got an intimate, I mean your title has American Express in it. So you've got to intimately understand your client's business. I mean, I guess that's always the case but we're taking it to another level here, aren't we? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what you really are often what we do as IBM is really get into the shoes basically of American Express trying to support their business to their clients. So American Express is very focused on small and medium businesses. So, we tap into how can we help the small and medium business as part of the American Express customer set. And how can we help evolve their business models, their technology, their services, to serve their clients better because in the old days, indeed, to your point, it was like, oh we wanted to buy the right stuff. And then we use that to do our thing but that the technology today, the area in which we operate is completely different. If you don't understand the client of American Express, we cannot serve American Express as a company. So it is indeed very important and it is therefore deeper and it requires way more focus on the clients of American Express than in the old days, I would say. >> Well, the pandemic must've been a challenging environment. Of course, I mean, you know people aren't out shopping as much, although people are waiting, they can't wait to get back out. They say, it's going to be like Woodstock here with their American Express cards. But so, maybe talk a little bit about how you worked together during the pandemic. >> Yeah, so well, first of all, like anybody we all work from home, but American Express really, I would say almost re-engaged on what is core in their strategy, is the support to small and medium business. So, American Express started this Stand For Small Initiative led by Steve Squeri himself, about how can we enable the small enterprises in doing business in the COVID period? What do they need? I mean, yeah, they need money, but they also need help. Like how to deal with your financials with your people. Can we use the spare time to do more education? And so IBM was one of the partners that jumped on board immediately to say, okay let us help in that platform, support you when necessary with the platform, but definitely help you in that platform to reach out to the small and medium enterprises, specifically in the New York area And like many other partners, we all got on board. And I think it got another focus again, I mean small and medium business has always been a focus but it's different when so many companies are struggling right now. And so we got on board and I think that is really a very clear partnership expression, I would say. >> How do you measure success with American Express? What are some of the key things that you guys look at? How have you evolved that over time? >> Well, ultimately I would say it's client satisfaction in the end. It sounds like an open door, but it really is. I mean, the real measurement, I mean there's always money measurements back and forth. And you can argue that of course you need to do solid business. There's no discussion there but I would say it's where do we align on the strategic intent from both companies? And let me elaborate a second on that one. If American Express is really transforming its business to become way more, I would say cloud enabled, hybrid technologies enabled. We provide a lot of that material. So we are really working together on trying to leverage each other in building that hybrid platform that will enable that future. And why do you need that? Well, because American Express needs to be dynamic and getting fintechs on board, getting exchanges with new companies are going way faster. It's not the traditional old style anymore where you could go for transformations for years. No, it needs to be on the spot. So we felt our strategies are really well aligned. And I would say the real measurement of success is how can we now make that to the benefit of American Express and on the back of that, we will do good business. So client satisfaction should be the primary one, strategic alignment important, and then of course doing the sound business on the back of that for both sides >> Financial services firms have always been pretty savvy when it comes to applying technology to business. Some of the most demanding customers and more advanced. And so, American Express was likely already on a digital transformation prior to the COVID hitting. At the same time, if he talks about it being accelerated. But, I think what people miss is that it wasn't, well they don't miss it, but to think about it and this way it wasn't planned, it was like forced. And, so you just, you had no choice. You couldn't think about it. You just had to do an act. And so on the one hand, okay, that's good. It was a forcing function. It also served as a Petri dish, but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of mistakes were made. Now, as we exit the pandemic, we step back and say, okay, wow, we learned a lot. Now we can make a more planful approach and really go deeper and lean in over the next several years. What are your thoughts on that? And how does it relate to what you guys are doing with American Express? >> I think that's a very good point, I agree. It's what you see is that this indeed has forced us in a lot of things. I think the good news is American Express was already enabled for a lot of that new technology. They have invested. They have a lot of very skilled, good people and a very clear strategy and what they were after. This indeed put more pressure on it. I think what you will see happening in the foreseeable future after we get out of all of this, let's say the the urgency to complete the transformation on the cloud and data will become even more crucial. And so the priority will become higher and it will not be just higher because of the techies wanting it to do it, but because the business needs it. So they need it from a risk perspective, they need it from an agility perspective, go to market of new products. They need to really move fast. It's a fast moving market. You get a lot of it. I mean, the competition is there. So to enable that the move to get new technologies in faster is becoming pivotal and crucial. And I think for now, it's more of an almost like a survival statement. We need to get through this bubble of COVID. As soon as that's done, we need to think way more on the structural elements of data and how we enable a hybrid strategy going forward. >> So in the spirit of, you know you need to understand your customer. In this case, American Express and understand their business. And American Express is, I'll make you laugh. Anytime I call American Express, if I have to work out a problem or whatever, and I got to talk to customer service, they always thank me for my loyalty. Because I've been a customer for a long time. Back when probably when Ronald Reagan was president it was my first Amex card. And so they're like, "Oh, thank you, Mr. Vellante. We really appreciate your loyalty." So loyalty is a big thing for American Express with its customers. So what about IBM and American Express? How are you breeding? You know, what's that loyalty factor look like for you guys? >> Yeah, I think it's a very important element. I mean, to your point, I have the same experience. It's a crucial element. The whole, I mean, American express is famous for its loyalty schemes for loyalty as a company. I think loyalty, like the business has evolved. I think the loyalty evolves in the same style. And I would say in the old days, I would say the argument was you need to have the best product. You know, you need to be, and then we'll buy the product. In the current environment, I would argue it's way more about skills. Do we have the right people? Do we have the right technology, strategy kind of stuff? I would say for the future, it's way more about do we have the right trust, commitment, and loyalty of the people that work with us going forward to serve the client needs? And I think that evolution, it's almost like you have an Industrial Revolution. There was an Information Revolution. I think there's more of a Loyalty Revolution coming up where the real differentiating factors is because we can study this and argue this for ages but a lot of parties will deliver a lot of good technology to the market. They will deliver a lot of good people. They will have good price points. So what's the real differentiating factor? It's like, do we really trust these people? And then I think relationship loyalty will really come in play and it will not become in play just between an IBM and an American Express. But I would argue it will come in play in the whole business cycle of American Express to their clients. I mean, if the credit card swipe of your American Express card in a shop fails, it needs to be my problem. If I deliver the service to American Express, it cannot be that, oh, American Express has a problem. And you know what, it's eight o'clock in the evening. Yeah, we have reduced services. No, we never had that. We will never have that. But we need to get even deeper in understanding what the effects are of these business issues. >> Yeah. you're right. The nature of loyalty, I mean, certainly the products have changed. I remember, you used to travel overseas with American Express Travelers Checks. That was a staple of every overseas trip that I ever took. No matter where I was going, whether it was the Asia Pacific or Europe, I had to have that packet. And there were times when one time in particular I had a problem, boom, they were right there. It solved that problem. Now of course, many young people in the audience don't even know what America's Express Travelers Check is. They probably don't know what cash is. Carrying around crypto in their wallet. But, that's an example and that's about trust. I trust that product. I trust that company behind the product. And again, that has to extend to your relationship, doesn't it? >> Absolutely, so the technology that American Express uses, whether they do it themselves, or whether it's provided by partners like IBM. It needs to be seamless because, let's face it. Dave, you will not be interested to know who provides you the security on your credit card. If you have an American Express card, you expect it expect American Express to deliver you the security that you need. And whether American Express delivers that or IBM, you couldn't care less and you shouldn't care less. But what it does require is that, in the old school I would say it was more like, okay, we'll give some services and some products to American Express and guys, good luck! Now, we need to think ahead. And I think that's where the power of IBM comes in whether we really are tuned by industry to the industry issues like compliance, security, stability, services to the end clients, to you. So you need to feel if I cannot explain what I do to American Express in your terms as an end-user of an Amex credit card, you can argue what's the real value at? And definitely if there's like three, four, or five parties playing exactly the same game, it needs to be differentiating. And I think a company like IBM we have differentiating value, but we need to make it very clear. And that's, I think where you see companies like American Express really work together and that's where loyalty and trust really comes into play. >> Last question and we've got to go is, you have American Express in your title. Are other companies jealous? (laughs) We want that too. >> They should. They should be. I must say, we deal with a ton of financial institutions as you know around the globe, including the other credit cards. But yeah, I think when these deep relationships come in place and two, they're so old. So deep, so entrenched, and it really started. There's different dimensions to it. And it's not always that hard-coded anymore. It's the subtlety of really relying on each other. I mean, when something happens in the middle of the night with American Express, all of IBM is on board as of the second. And it's not driven by contracts or by anything. It's by people that have an American Express logo on the forehead and worked for an IBM. >> Yeah, right. That's awesome. Piet, Piet Bill's great story. Thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. >> Thanks for having me. >> All right. And keep it right there. This is Dave Vellante, ongoing coverage of Think 2021. You're watching theCUBE.

>>from >>around >>The globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you >>by IBM. Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. This is the cubes ongoing coverage where we go out to the events in this case virtually to extract the signal from the noise. Now we're gonna talk about one of the deepest customer relationships in the tech business with Pete Bill, who is the IBM managing director for American Express. Pete, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me Dave. >>So as I said, this is one of the deepest vendor client relationships. I mean, it's more than that because you're not a vendor, your partner, very deep relationship, many, many, you know, decades plus uh, executives know each other. There's been a some senior executives from American Express as I recall, came over to IBM of course, famously Lou Gerstner um, but but talk about the, just give us the overview of the evolution of that partnership. >>Yeah, well, as you rightfully mentioned, uh the relationship is long and deep, its over 100 years. I mean the original deal was probably around the club buying clocks and uh scales and all that kind of stuff and it evolved over time. But what it does indeed create is a long deep lasting relationship as a fundament for doing business and uh yeah that business has gone through a lot of cycles over the last decades, as you say, uh from from buying stuff. But I would say over time evolving really into a partnership around services, mutual business back and forth, exchanging executives on board level american Express executives on the board of IBM and vice versa. So yeah, it's a very very deep long relationship of two iconic companies in in Manhattan. >>Yeah, so it's got to be more than just buying stuff. Obviously there's a lot of business being transacted but you've got to intimate your title has american Express in it. So you've got to intimately understand your client's business. I mean that's I guess that's always the case, but we're taking it to another level here, >>aren't we? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so what you really are after and what we do is IBM is really get into the shoes basically of american Express trying to support their business to their clients. So american Express is very focused on small and medium business. So we tip into how can we help the small and medium businesses part of the american Express custom set and how can we help evolve their business models, that technology their services to serve their clients better because in the old days indeed. To your point it was like, oh we wanted to buy the right stuff and then we use that to do our thing. But that the technology today, the area in which we operate is completely different. If you don't understand the the client of american Express, we cannot serve american express as a company. So it is indeed very important and it is therefore deeper and it requires way more focused on the clients of american express than in the old days I would say. >>Well the pandemic must have been a challenging uh environment. Of course. I mean you know people aren't out shopping as much although you know people are waiting, they can't wait to get back out. They say it's gonna be like Woodstock with the american express cards. But so so maybe talk a little bit about how how you work together during the pandemic. >>Yeah. So well first of all like anybody, we're all work from home. But american express really uh I would say almost reengaged on what is core and the threat that used to support to small and medium business. So american Express started this stand for small initiative led by steve Square himself about how can we enable the small enterprises uh in doing business in the covid period? What do they need? I mean, yeah, they need money, but they also need help like how to deal with your financials with your people. Can we use the spare time to do more education? And so IBM was one of the partners that jumped on board immediately to say, okay, let us help in that platform support you were necessary with the platform but definitely help you in that platform to reach out to the small and medium enterprises uh specifically in the new york area. And like many other partners, we all got on board and I think it got another focus. Again, I mean small and medium business has always been a focus, but it's different when so many companies are struggling right now. And so we get a got on board. And I think that that is really a very clear partnership expression. I would say, >>how do you measure success with with american Express? What are some of the key things that you guys look at? How, how have you evolved that over time? >>Well, ultimately, I would say it's client satisfaction in the end, it sounds like an open door, but it really is. I mean the real the real measurement, I mean there's always money measurements back and forth. You can argue that that is of course you need to do solid business. There's no discussion there, but I would say it's where do we align on the strategic intent from both companies and let me elaborate a second on that one. If american Express is really transforming its business to become way more, I would say uh cloud enabled hybrid technologies enabled. Uh we provide a lot of that material. Uh so we are really working together on trying to leverage each other in building that hybrid platform that will enable that future. And why do you need that? Well, because american Express needs to be dynamic and getting fit, excellent board, getting exchanges with with with with new companies going way faster. It's not a traditional old style anymore where you could go for transformations for years now it needs to be on the spot. Um so we show our strategies are really well aligned and I would say the real measurement of success is how can we now make that to the benefit of american Express? And on the back of that we will do good business. So uh client satisfaction should be the primary one. Strategic alignment important. And then of course doing the sound business on the back of that for both sides, >>financial services firms have always been pretty savvy when it comes to applying technology to business some of the most demanding customers and more advanced. Uh So you know the american express is likely already on a digital transformation prior to the covid hitting at the same time. It talks about it being accelerated. But I think what people miss is that it wasn't well they don't miss it but you know to think about it in this way, it wasn't planned, it was like forced. And so you just you have no choice, you couldn't think about it, you just have to do an act. And so on the one hand, okay, that's good. It was a forcing function. It also served as a Petri just but on the other hand, I'm sure a lot of mistakes were made now as we exit the pandemic step back and say okay wow, we learned a lot now. We can make a more planned full approach and really go deeper and lean in over the next several years. What are your thoughts on that and how does it relate to what you guys are doing with american Express? >>I think that's a very good point. I agree. It's what you see is that uh this indeed has forced us in a lot of things. I mean I think the good news is american Express was already enabled for a lot of that new technology. They have invested, they have a lot of very skilled good people uh a very clear strategy and what they were after this and they put more pressure on it. I think what you will see happening in the foreseeable future after we get out of all of this is that the, let's say the urgency to complete the transformation on cloud and data will become even more crucial. And so the priority will become higher and it will not be just higher because of the Turkish wanting it to do it, but because the business needs it. So uh needed from a risk perspective, they needed, from an agility perspective, go to market of new products. Uh they need to really move fast. It's a fast moving market, you get a lot of the media competition is there? Uh so to enable that the move to get new technologies and faster is becoming pivotal and crucial. And I think for now it's more of almost like a survival statement. We need to get through this bubble of Covid as soon as that's done, we need to think way more on the structural elements of debt and how we enable a hybrid strategy going forward. >>So in the spirit of you need to understand your customer in this case american Express and understand their business. An american express is uh make you laugh anytime I call american Express, you know, if I have to work out a problem or whatever. Uh and I gotta talk to some customer service. They always thank me for my loyalty because I have been a customer for a long time. You know, back when probably when Ronald Reagan was president, it was my first Amex card. And so they're like, oh thank you, Mr Volonte. We we really appreciate your loyalty. So loyalty is a big thing for american Express with its customers. So what about IBM and American Express? How are you breeding, you know, what's that loyalty factor look like for you guys? >>Yeah, I think it's a very important element. I mean to your point, I have the same experience, It's it's a it's a crucial element. Uh the whole, I mean american Express is famous for its loyalty schemes for loyalty as a company. I think loyalty like the business has evolved, I think the loyalty evolves in the same style in I would say in the in the in the old days, I would say the argument was you need to have the best product, you know, you you need to be and then we'll buy the product in the current environment. I would argue that it's way more about skills, Do we have the right people? Do we have the right technology strategy kind of stuff? I would say for the future, it's way more about do we have the right trust, commitment and loyalty of the people that work with us going forward to serve the client needs? And I think that evolution, it's almost like you have an industrial revolution, there was an information resolution. I think there's more of a loyalty revolution coming up where the real differentiating factors is because we can study this and argue this for ages. But a lot of parties will deliver a lot of good technology to the market, they will deliver a lot of good people, they will have good price points. So what's the real differentiating factor? It's like, do we really trust these people? And then I think relationship loyalty will really come and play and it will not become and play just between an IBM and an american express, but I would argue it will come and play in the whole business cycle of american express to their clients. I mean if the credit card swipe of your american express card in a shop fails, It needs to be my problem. If I deliver the service to American express it cannot be that Oh American express has a problem and you know what, it's 8:00 in the evening uh yeah we have reduced services. No we never had that, we will never have that but we need to get even deeper in understanding what the effects are of these business issues. >>Yeah I mean you're right the nature of loyalty, the preservative products have changed. I mean I remember you know I used to travel overseas with american Express traveler's checks that was a staple of every overseas trip that I ever took you no matter where I was going, whether it's asia pacific or or europe, I had to have that packet and I and I had you know, there were times when, when you know one time particularly had a problem film, they were right there to solve the problem. Of course, many young people in the audience don't even know what american express traveler's check is. They probably don't know what cash is carrying around crypto in their wallet. But but but that's an example and that's about trust, trust that product, I trust that company behind the product. Again, that has to extend to your relationship doesn't. >>Absolutely. So the technology that an american Express users, whether they do it themselves or whether it's provided by partners like IBM it needs to be seamless because let's face it, you would not be interested to know who provides you the security on your credit card. If you have an american Express card, you expect expect american Express to deliver your the security that you need and whether american Express delivers that or IBM you couldn't care less and you shouldn't care less. But what it does require is that in the old school I would say it was more like okay we'll give some services and some products to american Express and guys could look now, we need to think ahead and I think that's where the power of IBM comes in where that we really attuned by industry to the industry issues like compliance, security, stability services, um to the inclined to you. So you need to feel if I cannot explain what I do to american express in your terms as an infusion of an express credit card, you can argue what's the real value add. And definitely if there's like 345 parties playing exactly the same game, it needs to be differentiating and I think a company like IBM we have differentiating value but we need to make it very clear and that's I think where you see companies like american Express really work together and that's what loyalty and trust really comes in play. >>Last question when we got to go is you have american expression, your title are other companies jealous >>we >>want that >>to, they should, they should >>be. Uh >>but I I must say, I mean we deal with a ton of financial institutions as you know around the globe including the other credit cards. But yeah, I think where these deep relationship ships commonplace indeed too. I mean they're so old, so deep, so and entrenched and it really start there's different dimensions to it and it's not always that hard coded anymore, it's the subtlety of really relying on each other. I mean when something happens in the middle of the night with american express, all of IBM is on board as of the second and it's not driven by contracts or by anything. It's by people that have an American Express logo on the forehead and work for an IBM. >>Yeah. Right. It's awesome. Pete Pete bills. Great story. Thanks so much for coming to the cube. It's great to have you. >>Thanks for having me. >>All right and keep it right. There is day volonte ongoing coverage of think 2021. You're watching the Cube? Yeah.

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation hello everybody welcome to the cubes exclusive coverage of IBM thanks 2020 digital event experience the cube covering wall-to-wall we've got a number of interviews planned for you going deep my name is Dave Volante I'm here with stoom in ament's - how you doing doing great Dave so we're socially distant as you can see in the studio and mohab row everybody's you know six feet apart got our masks on took them off for this for this segment so Stu let's get into it so a very interesting time obviously for IBM Arvind Krishna doing the big keynote Jim Whitehurst new president so you got a new leadership a lot of talk about resilience agility and flexibility you know which is kind of interesting obviously a lot of their clients are thinking about kovat 19 in that context iBM is trying to provide solutions and capabilities we're going to get into it but really the linchpin of all this is open shift and RedHat and we're gonna talk about what that means for the vision that Arvind Krishna laid out and let's get into it your your thoughts on think 2020 yeah so Dave of course you know last week we had Red Hat summit so Red Hat is still Red Hat you and I had a nice discussion going into Red Hat summit yes thirty four billion dollar acquisition there now under IBM Jim white her slides over in that new role as president but you know one of the questions we've had fundamentally Dave is does an acquisition like this will it change IBM will it change the cloud landscape openshift and Red Hat are doing quite well we definitely have seen some some of the financials and every audience that hasn't seen your analysis segment of IBM should really go in and see that because the Red Hat of course is one of the bright spots in the financials they're you know good growth rate on the number of customers and what they're doing in cloud and underneath a lot of those announcements you dig down and oh yeah there's openshift and there's Red Hat Enterprise Linux rel so you know I long partner for decades between IBM and Red Hat but is you know how will the IBM scale really help the Red Hat pieces there's a number of announcements underneath you know not just you know how does the entire world work on you know Z and power and all of the IBM platforms but you know I believe it's arvind says one of the enduring platforms needs to be the hybrid cloud and you heard a Red Hat summit the entire week it was the open hybrid cloud was the discussion well yes so that actually is interesting you brought up Arvin's sort of pillars there were three enduring platforms that he cited then the fourth of course is I guess open hybrid cloud but the first was mainframes the second was and I'm not sure this is the right order the second was services and then the third was middleware so basically saying excuse me we have to win the day for the architecture of hybrid cloud what's that mean to you then I'd like to chime in yeah so so Dave first of all you know when when we did our analysis when IBM bought red Hatton says you know my TL DR was does this change the cloud landscape my answer is no if I'm a Amazon I'm not sitting there saying oh geez you know the combination of IBM and Red Hat well they're partners and they're they're gonna be involved in it does IBM have huge opportunities in hybrid cloud multi cloud and edge computing absolutely one of the questions is you know how will I be M services really be transformed you know Dave we've watched over the last decade some of the big service organizations have really shrunk down cloud changed the marginal economics you've done so much discussion of this over the last handful of years that you need to measure yourself against the hyper scalars you need to you know see where you can add value and the question is Dave you know when and where do we think of IBM in the new era well so coming back to sort of your point about RedHat and services is it about cloud is a developer's near-term I've said it's it's more about services than it is about cloud longer-term I think it is about cloud but but IBM's definition of cloud is maybe a little different than 10 hours but when Jeannie when on the roadshow - after the redhead acquisitions you said this is gonna be a creative - free cash flow within one year and the reason why I always believe that is because they were gonna plug Red Hat and we've talked about this an open shift right into their services business and start modernizing applications right away they've actually achieved that so I think they had pretty good visibility and that was kind of a mandate so IBM's huge services organization is in a good position to do that they've got deep industry expertise we heard Arvind Krishna on his keynote talking about that Jim Whitehurst talking more about services you really didn't hear Jim you know previously in his previous roles talk a lot about services other than as part of the ecosystem so it's an interesting balancing act that that iBM has to do the real thing I want to dig into Stu is winning the day with the with with the architecture of hybrid cloud so let's start with with cloud talk about how IBM defines cloud IBM on its earning earnings call we talked about this on our Red Hat Summit analysis the cloud was you know 23 billion you know growing it whatever 20 20 plus percent when my eyes have been bleeding reading IBM financial statements in ten case for the last couple of weeks but when you go in there and you look at what's in that cloud and I shared this on my braking analysis this week a very small portion of that cloud revenue that what last year 21 billion very small portion is actually what they call cloud cloud and cognitive software it's only about 20 percent of the pie it's really services it's about 2/3 services so that is a bit of a concern but at the same time it's their greatest opportunity because they have such depth and services if IBM can increase the percentage of its business that's coming from higher margin software a business which was really the strategy go back 20 years ago it's just as services became this so big it's so pervasive that that software percentage you know maybe it grew maybe it didn't but but that's IBM's opportunities to really drive that that that software based revenues so let's talk about what that looks like how does OpenShift play in that IBM definition of cloud which includes on Prem the IBM public law everybody else's public cloud multi-cloud and the edge yeah well first of all Dave right the question is where does IBM technologies where do they live so you know look even before the Red Hat piece if we looked at IBM systems there's a number of times that you're seeing IBM software living on various public clouds and that it's goodness you know one of the things we've talked about for a number of years is you know how can you become more of a software company how can you move to more of the you know cloud consumption models you go in more op X and capex so IBM had done some of that and Red Hat should be able to help supercharge that when we look at some of the announcements the one that of course caught my other most Dave is the you know IBM cloud satellite would would say the shorthand of it it's IBM's version of outposts and underneath that what is it oh it's open shift underneath there and you know how can I take those pieces and we know open ship can live across you know almost any of the clouds and you know cannot live on the IB cloud IBM cloud absolutely can it be open ship be in the data center and on virtualization whether it be open source or VMware absolutely so satellite being a fundamental component underneath of open ship makes a lot of sense and of course Linux yeah Linux underneath if you look at the the one that we've heard IBM talking about for a while now is cloud packs is really how are they helping customers simplify and build that cloud native stack you start with Red Hat Enterprise Linux you put openshift on top of that and then cloud packs are that simple toolset for whether you're doing data or AI or integration that middleware that you talked about in the past iBM has way the ways that they've done middleware for decades and now they have the wonderful open source to help enable that yeah I mean WebSphere bluemix IBM cloud now but but OpenShift is really that pass layer that that IBM had coveted right and I was talking to some of IBM's partners getting ready for this event and they say if you dig through the 10k cloud packs is one of those that you know there are thousands of customers that are using this so it's good traction not just hey we have this cloud stuff and it's wonderful and we took all of these acquisitions everything from SoftLayer to software pieces but you know cloud packs is you know a nice starter for companies to help really move forward on some of their cloud native application journey yes so what whatever we talked about this past week in the braking analysis and certainly David floor has been on this as well as this notion of being able to run a Red Hat based let's call it a stack everywhere and Jim White has talked about that essentially really whether it's on Prem at the edge in the clouds but the key there stew is being able to do so natively so every layer of you know it began call it the stack IT services the data plane the control plane the management plane all the planes being able to the networking the transport etc being natively able to run wherever it is so that you can take fine-grain advantage and leverage the primitives on respective clouds the advantage that IBM has in my view would love your thoughts on this is that Red Hat based platforms it's open source and so I mean it's somebody gonna trust Amazon to be the the cloud native anybody's cloud yeah you know solution well if you're part of the Amazon stack I mean I Amazon frankly an Oracle have similar kind of mindset you know redstack Amazon stack make it all homogeneous and it'll run just fine IBM's coming at it from an open source perspective so they they in some ways will have more credibility but it's gonna take a lot of investment to really Shepherd those standards they're gonna have to put a lot of commitments in committers and they're gonna have to incent people to actually adhere to those standards yeah I mean David's the idea of pass the platform as a service that we've been chasing as an industry for more than a decade what's interesting if you listen to IBM what's underneath this well it's you know taking advantage of the container based architecture with kubernetes underneath so can I run kubernetes anywhere yeah pretty much every cloud has their own service OpenShift can live everywhere the question is what David floors rightly putting out okay if I bake to a single type of solution can i really take advantage of the native offerings so the discussion we've always had for a long time as dua virtualize something in which case I'm really abstract away I get to you know I can't take advantage of the all various pieces do I do multi cloud in which case I have some least common denominator way of looking at cloud because I what I want to be able to do is get the value in differentiation out of each cloud I use but not be stuck on any cloud and yes Dave Red Hat with openshift and based with kubernetes and the open source community is definitely a leading way to do that what you worry about is saying okay how much is this stuck on containerization will it be able to take advantage of things like serverless you talk to IBM and say okay underneath it's going to have all this wonderful components Dave when I talked to Andy Jesse and he says if I was rebuilding AWS today it would all be service underneath so what is that underlying construct you know is it flexible and can it be updated Red Hat and IBM are going to bridge between the container world and the serverless world with things like a native but absolutely we are not yet at the Nirvana that developers can just build their apps and know that it can run anywhere and take advantage of anything so you know some things we know we need to keep working so a couple other things there so Jim Weider has talked about ingesting innovation that the nature of innovation is such that it comes from a lot of different places open source obviously is a you know fundamental you know component of that he talked about the telco edge he gave an example of Vodafone Arvind Krishna talked about anthem kind of redefining healthcare post kovat so you're seeing some examples of course that's good that IBM puts forth some really you know proof points it's not just you know slide where which is good I think the the interesting thing you know you can't just put you know containers out there and expect the innovation to find its way into those containers it's gonna take a lot of work to make sure that as those different layers of the stack that we were talking about before are actually going to come to fruition so there's there's the there's some other announcements in this regard to these Edgecumbe edge computing application manager let's say the telco edge a lot of automation focused you mentioned IBM satellite there's the financial services cloud so we're seeing IBM actually you know sprinkle around some investments there as I said in my breaking in houses I'd like to see them dial up those investments a little bit more maybe dial down the return of cash at least for the next several years to shareholders yeah I mean Dave the concern you would talk to most customers and you say well if you try to even optimize your own data center and turn it into a cloud how can you take advantage of the innovation that the Amazon Microsoft Google's and IBM's are Tait are putting out there in the world you want to be able to plug into that you want to be able to leverage those those new services so that is where it's definitely a shift Dave you think about IBM over a hundred years usually they're talking about their patent portfolio I I think they've actually opened up a lot of their patent portfolio to help attack you know the kovat 19 so it is definitely a very different message and tenor that I hear under Arvind Krishna you know in very early days than what I was used to for the last decade or two from IBM yeah well at the risk of being a little bit repetitive one of the things that I talked about in my breaking the analysis I highlighted that arvind said he wants to lead with a technical story which I really like Arvin's a technical visionary his predecessors his three predecessors were not considered technical visionaries and so I think that's one of the things that's been lacking inside of IBM I think it's one of the reason why why Services has been such a dominant component so look Lou Gerstner too hard to argue with the performance of the company but when he made the decision and IBM made the decision to go all-in on services something's got to give and what gave and I've said this many many times in the cube was was product leadership so I'd like to see IBM get back to that product leadership and I think Red Hat gives them an opportunity to do that obviously Red Hat Linux you know open source is a leader the leader and this is jump all as we've talked about many times in this multi hybrid cloud edge you know throwing all the buzzwords but there's some interesting horses on the track you got you got VMware we throw in AWS just because they're there you can talk about cloud without talking about AWS certainly Microsoft has designs there Cisco Google everybody wants a piece of that pie and I would say that you know Red Hat with with with OpenShift is in a good position if in fact they can make the investments necessary to build out those stacks yeah it's funny Dave because IBM for the history the size that they are often can get overlooked you talk about you know we've probably spent more air time talking about the VMware Amazon relationship than almost any in the last few years well we forget we were sitting at vmworld and two months before VMware announced the Amazon partnership who was it that was up on the main stage with Pat Gelson der it was IBM because IBM was the first partner I I believe that I saw numbers that IBM was saying that they have more hosted VMware environments than anyone out there I'd love to see the data on it to understand there because you know IBM plays in so many different places they just often are not you know aggregated and counted together you know when you get outside of some of the you know middleware mainframe some of the pieces that you talked about earlier Dave so IBM does have a strong position they just haven't been the front center leader too often but they have a broad portfolio and very much services led so they they kind of get forgotten you know off on the sides so IBM stated strategy is to bring those mission critical workloads into the cloud they've said that 80% of the workloads remain on Prem only 20% have been been clarified you know when you when you peel the onions on that there's just is so much growth and cloud native workloads so you know there's there is a somewhat of a so what in that but I will say this so where are the mission critical workloads where do they live today they live on Prem we can but but but whose stacks are running those it's IBM and it's Oracle and and David floor has done some research that suggests that if you're gonna put stuff into the cloud that's mission-critical you're probably better off staying with those those stacks that are going to allow you to a lower risk move not have to necessarily rip and replace and so you know migrating mission-critical Oracle database into AWS or db2 you know infrastructure into AWS is is gonna be much more challenging than than going same-same into the IBM cloud or the respective Oracle cloud so I guess my question to you Stu is why do people want to move those mission critical workloads into the cloud do they well first of all it's unlocking innovation that you talked about Dave so you know we've looked at from a VMware standpoint versus a red hat standpoint if you talk about building new apps doing containerization having that cloud native mindset do I have a bimodal configuration not so not a word that we talk about as much anymore because I want to be able to modernize it modernizing those applications doing any of those migrations we know or super challenging you know heck David Flair has talked about it for a long long time so you bring up some great points here that you know Microsoft might be the best at meeting customers where they are and giving people a lot of options IBM lines up in many ways in a similar ways my biggest critique about VMware is they don't have tight ties to the application it's mostly you know virtual eyes it or now we have some cloud native pieces but other than the pivotal group they didn't do a lot with modernization on applications IBM with their middleware history Red Hat with everything that they do with the developer communities are well positioned to help customers along those digital journeys and going through those transformations so it's you know applications need to be updated you know if anybody that's used applications that are long in the tooth know that they don't have the features that I want they don't react the way they want heck today Dave everybody needs to be able to access things where they are on the go you know it's not a discussion anymore about you know virtual desktop it's about you know work anywhere have access to the data where I need it and be much more flexible and agile and those are some of the configurations that you know iBM has history and their services arm can help customers move along those journeys yeah so you know I think one of the big challenges iBM has it's got a it's got a its fingers in a lot of pies AI you know they talk a lot about blockchain they're about quantum quantum is not gonna be here for a while it's very cool we have an interview coming up with with Jamie Thomas and you know she's all over the quantum we've talked to her in the past about it but I think you know if you think about IBM's business in terms of services and product you know it's whatever it is a 75 you know billion dollar organization 2/3 or and maybe not quite 2/3 maybe 60 Plus percent is services services are not an R&D intensive business you look at a company like Accenture Stu I think Accenture spent last year 800 million on R&D they're a forty five billion dollar forty six billion dollar company so if you really isolate the IBM you know company to two products whatever its call it 25 30 billion they spend a large portion of that that revenue on R&D to get to the six billion but my argument is it's it's not enough to really drive the type of innovation that they need just another again Accenture data point because they're kind of a gold standard along with IBM you.why and others and and a couple of others in services they return seventy six percent of their cash to shareholders iBM has returned consistently 50 to 60 percent to its shareholders so arvind stated he wants to return IBM to growth you know every every IBM CEO says that Ginni I used to talk about has to shrink to grow as I said unfortunately so you should run out of time and now it's up to Arvind to show that but to me growth has got to come from fueling Rd whether it's organic or inorganic I'd like to see you know organic as the real driver for obvious reasons and I don't think just open source in and of itself obviously is going to attract that it'll attract innovation but whether or not IBM will be able to harness it to his advantage is the real challenge unless they're making huge huge commitments to that open source and in a microcosm you know it's a kind of a proxy we saw what happened to Hortonworks and cloud era because they had to had to fund that open source commitment you know IBM we're talking about much much with the hybrid multi-cloud edge much much bigger opportunity but but requirement and we haven't even talked about AI you know bringing you know I think I think you have a quote on you know data is the fuel what was that quote yes it was Jim Whitehurst he said data is the fuel cloud is the platform AI is accelerant and then security my paraphrase is the mission control there so sounds a lot like your innovation cocktail that you've been talking about for the last year or so Dave but iCloud but so okay but AI is the accelerant and I agree by the way applying AI to all this data that we have you know over the years automating it and scaling it in the cloud it's critical and if IBM wants to define cloud as you know the cloud experience anywhere I'm fine with that I'm not a fan of the way they break down their cloud business I think it's bogus and I've called them on that but okay fine so maybe we'll get by that I'll get over it but but but really that is the opportunity it's just it's got to be funded yeah no Dave absolutely iBM has a lot of really good assets there they've got strong leadership as you said can Arvind do another Satya Nadella transformation there's the culture there's the people and there's the product so you know IBM you know absolutely has a lot of great resources and you know smart people and some really good products out there as well as really good ecosystem partnerships it's you know Amazon is not the enemy to IBM Microsoft is a partner for what they're doing and even Google is somebody that they can work with so you know I always say back in the ten years I've been working for you Dave I think the first time I heard the word coopertition I thought it was like an IBM trademark name because they were the ones that really you know lead as to have a broad portfolio and work with everybody in the ecosystem even though you don't necessarily agree or partner on every piece of what you're doing so in a multi cloud AI you know open ecosystem IBM's got a real shot yeah I mean a Satya Nadella like move would be awesome of course Satya had a much much larger you know of cash hoard to play with but but I guess the similarity stew are you you're notwithstanding that now we have three prominent companies run by Indian native born leaders which is pretty astounding when you think about it but notwithstanding that there are some similarities just in terms of culture and emphasis and getting back to sort of the the technical roots the technical visionaries so I'm encouraged but I'm watching very closely stew as I'm sure you are kind of where those investments go how how it plays in the marketplace but but I think you're right I think people underestimate IBM and and but the combination of IBM Red Hat could be very dangerous yeah Dave how many times do we write the article you know has the sleeping giant of IBM been awoken so I think it's a different era now and absolutely there's IBM has the right cards to be able to play at some of these new tables and it's a different IBM for a different era somebody said to me the other day that and probably you've probably heard this you have to but it was first I heard of it is that within five years IBM had better be a division of Red Hat versus the other way around so all right Stu thanks for for helping to set up the IBM think 2020 digital event experience what coming at you wall-to-wall coverage I think we've got over 40 interviews lined up Stu you you have been doing a great job both last week with the Red Hat summit and helping out with IBM thanks so thanks for that Dave no no rainy week at the new Moscone like we had last year a really good content from the comfort of our remote settings yeah so keep it right there buddy this is Dave a lot a force to Minutemen go to Silicon angle calm you'll check out all the news the the cube net we'll have all of our videos will be running wall-to-wall wiki bong calm has some some of the research action this day Volante force too many we'll be right back right after this short break [Music]

from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat last year in 2019 IBM made the biggest M&A move of the year with a 34 billion dollar acquisition of red hat it positioned IBM for the next decade after what was a very tumultuous tenure by CEO Ginni Rometty who had to shrink in order to grow unfortunately she didn't have enough time to do the grille part that has now gone toward Arvind Krishna the new CEO of IBM this is Dave Volante and I'm here with Stu minimun and this is our Red Hat keynote analysis is our 7th year doing the Red Hat summit and we're very excited to be here this is our first year doing Stu the Red Hat summit post IVM acquisition we've also got IBM think next week so what we want to do for you today is review what's going on at the Red Hat summits do you've been wall-to-wall with the interviews we're gonna break down the announcements IBM had just announced its quarter so we get some glimpse as to what's happening in the business and then we're gonna talk about going forward what the prognosis is for both IBM and Red Hat well and Dave of course our audience understands there's a reason why we're sitting farther apart than normal in our studio and you know why we're not in San Francisco where the show is supposed to be this year last year it's in Boston Red Hat summit goes coast-to-coast every year it's our seventh year doing the show first year doing it all digital of course our community is always online but you know real focus you know we're gonna talk about Dave you know you listen to the keynote speeches it's not the as we sit in our preview it's not the hoopla we had a preview with pork or mayor ahead of the event where they're not making big announcements most of the product pieces we're all out front it's open source anyway we know when it's coming for the most part some big partnership news of course strong customer momentum but a different tenor and the customers that Red Hat's lined up for me their interview all talking you know essential services like medical your your energy services your communication services so you know real focus I think Dave both IBM and right making sure that they are setting the appropriate tone in these challenging times yeah I mean everybody who we talked to says look at the employees and safety comes first once we get them working from home and we know that they're safe and healthy we want to get productive and so you've seen as we've reported that that shift to the work from home infrastructure and investments in that and so now it's all about how do we get closer to clients how do we stay close to clients and be there for them and I actually have you know business going forward you know the good news for IBM is it's got strong cash flow it's got a strong balance sheet despite you know the acquisition I mean it's just you know raise some more you know low low cost debt which you know gives them some dry powder going forward so I think IBM is gonna be fine it's just there's a lot of uncertainty but let's go back to your takeaways from the Red Hat Summit you've done you know dozens of interviews you got a good take on the company what are you top three takeaways - yeah so first of all Dave you know the focus everybody has is you know what does Red Hat do for the cloud story for IBM OpenShift especially is absolutely a highlight over 2,000 customers now from some really large ones you know last year I interviewed you know Delta you've got you know forward and Verizon up on stage for the keynote strong partnership with Microsoft talking about what they're doing so OpenShift has really strong momentum if you talk about you know where is the leadership in this whole kubernetes space Red Hat absolutely needs to be in that discussion not only are they you know other than Google the top contributor really there but from a customer standpoint the experience what they've built there but what I really liked from Red Hat standpoint is it's not just an infrastructure discussion it's not OPM's and containers and there's things we want to talk about about VMs and containers and even server lists from Red Hat standpoint but Red Hat at its core what it is it they started out as an operating system company rel Red Hat Enterprise Linux what's the tie between the OS and the application oh my god they've got decades of experience how do you build applications everything from how they're modernizing Java with a project called Korkis through how their really helping customers through this digital transformation I hear a similar message from Red Hat and their customers that I hear from Satya Nadella at Microsoft is we're building lots of applications we need to modernize what they're doing in Red Hat well positioned across the stack to not only be the platform for it but to help all of the pieces to help me modernize my applications build new ones modernize some of the existing ones so OpenShift a big piece of it you know automation has been a critical thing for a while we did the cube last year at ansible fest for the first time from Red Hat took that acquisition has helped accelerate that community in growth and they're really Dave pulling all the pieces together so it's what you hear from Stephanie shirasu ironically enough came over from IBM to run that business inside a Red Hat well you know now she's running it inside Red Hat and there's places that this product proliferate into the IBM portfolio next week when we get where it I didn't think I'm sure we'll hear a lot about IBM cloud packs and look at what's underneath IBM cloud packs there's open shift there's rel all those pieces so you know I know one of the things we want to talk about Davis you know what does that dynamic of Red Hat and IBM mean so you know open shift automation the full integration both of the Red Hat portfolio and how it ties in with IBM would be my top three well red hat is now IBM I mean it's a clearly part of the company it's there's a company strategy going forward the CEO Arvind Krishna is the architect of the Red Hat acquisition and so you know that it's all in on Red Hat Dave I mean just the nuance there of course is the the thing you hear over and over from the Red Hatters is Red Hat remains Red Hat that cultural shift is something I'd love to discuss because you know Jim Whitehurst now he's no longer a Red Hat employee he's an IBM employee so you've got Red Hat employees IBM employees they are keeping that you know separation wall but obviously there's flowing in technology and come on so come on in tech you look at it's not even close to what VMware is VMware is a separate public company has separate reporting Red Hat doesn't I mean yes I hear you yo you got the Red Hat culture and that's good but it's a far cry from you know a separate entity with full transparency the financials and and so I I hear you but I'm not fully buying it but let's let's get into it let's take a look at at the quarter because that I think will give us an indication as to how much we actually can understand about RedHat and and again my belief is it's really about IBM and RedHat together I think that is their opportunity so Alex if you wouldn't mind pulling up the first slide these are highlights from IBM's q1 and you know we won't spend much time on the the the IBM side of the business although we wanted to bring some of that in but hit the key here as you see red hat at 20% revenue growth so still solid revenue growth you know maybe a little less robust than it was you know sequentially last quarter but still very very strong and that really is IBM's opportunity here 2,200 clients using red hat and an IBM container platforms the key here is when Ginni Rometty announced this acquisition along with Arvind Krishna and Jim Whitehurst she said this is going to be this is going to be cash flow free cash flow accretive in year one they've already achieved that they said it's gonna be EPS accretive by year two they are well on their way to achieving that why we talked about this do it's because iBM has a huge services organization that it can plug open shift right into and begin to modernize applications that are out there I think they cited on the call that they had a hundred ongoing projects and that is driving immediate revenue and allows IBM to from a financial standpoint to get an immediate return so the numbers are pretty solid yeah absolutely Dave and you know talking about that there is a little bit of the blurring a line between the companies one of the product pieces that came out at the show is IBM has had for a couple of years think you know MCM multi cloud management there was announced that there were actually some of the personnel and some of the products from IBM has cut have come into Retta of course Red Hat doing what they always do they're making it open source and they're it's advanced cluster management really from my viewpoint this is an answer to what we've seen in the kubernetes community for the last year there is not one kubernetes distribution to rule them all I'm going to use what my platforms have and therefore how do I manage across my various cloud environments so Red Hat for years is OpenShift lives everywhere it sits on top of VMware virtualization environments it's on top of AWS Azure in Google or it just lives in your Linux farms but ACM now is how do I manage my kubernetes environment of course you know super optimized to work with OpenShift and the roadmap as to how it can manage with Azure kubernetes and some of the other environments so you know you now have some former IBM RS that are there and as you said Dave some good acceleration in the growth from the Red Hat numbers we'd seen like right around the time that the acquisition happened Red Hat had a little bit of a down quarter so you know absolutely the services and the the scale that IBM can bring should help to bring new logos of course right now Dave with the current global situation it's a little bit tough to go and be going after new business yeah and we'll talk about that a little bit but but I want to come back to sort of when I was pressing you before on the trip the true independence of Red Hat by the way I don't think that's necessarily a wrong thing I'll give an example look at Dell right now why is Dell relevant and cloud well okay but if Dell goes to market says we're relevant in cloud because of VMware well then why am I talking to you why don't I talk to VMware and so so my point is that that in some regards you know having that integration is there is a real advantage no you know you were that you know EMC and the time when they were sort of flip-flopping back and forth between integrated and not and separate and not it's obviously worked out for them but it's not necessarily clear-cut and I would say in the case of IBM I think it's the right move why is that every Krista talked about three enduring platforms that IBM has developed one is mainframe that's you know gonna here to stay the second was middleware and the third is services and he's saying that hybrid cloud is now the fourth and during platform that they want to build well how do they gonna build that what are they gonna build that on they're gonna build that an open shift they they're there other challenges to kind of retool their entire middleware portfolio around OpenShift not unlike what Oracle did with with Fusion when it when it bought Sun part of the reason - pod Sun was for Java so these are these are key levers not necessarily in and of themselves you know huge revenue drivers but they lead to awesome revenue opportunities so that's why I actually think it's the right move that what IBM is doing keep the Red Hat to the brand and culture but integrate as fast as possible to get cash flow or creative we've achieved that and get EPS accretive that to me makes a lot of sense yeah Dave I've heard you talk often you know if you're not a leader in a position or you know here John Chambers from Cisco when he was running it you know if I'm not number one or number two why am I in it how many places did IBM have a leadership position Red Hat's a really interesting company because they have a leadership position in Linux obviously they have a leadership position now in kubernetes Red Hat culturally of course isn't one to jump up and down and talk about you know how they're number one in all of these spaces because it's about open source it's about community and you know that does require a little bit of a cultural shift as IBM works with them but interesting times and yeah Red Hat is quietly an important piece of the ecosystem let me let me bring in some meteor data Alex if you pull up that that's that second slide well and I've shown this before in braking analysis and what this slide shows in the vertical axis shows net score net score is a measure of spending momentum spending velocity the the horizontal axis is is is called market share it's really not market share it's it's really a measure of pervasiveness the the mentions in the data set we're talking about 899 responses here out of over 1200 in the April survey and this is a multi cloud landscape so what I did here Stu I pulled on containers container platforms of container management and cloud and we positioned the companies on this sort of XY axis and you can see here you obviously have in the upper right you've got Azure in AWS why do I include AWS and the multi cloud landscape you answered that question before but yesterday because Dave even though Amazon might not allow you to even use the word multi cloud you can't have a discussion of multi cloud without having Amazon in that discussion and they've shifted on hybrid expect them to adjust their position on multi-cloud in the future yeah now coming back to this this this data you see kubernetes is on the kubernetes I know is another company but ETR actually tracks kubernetes you can see how hot it is in terms of its net score and spending momentum yeah I mean Dave do you know the thing the the obvious thing to look at there is if you see how strong kubernetes is if IBM plus red hat can keep that leadership in kubernetes they should do much better in that space than they would have on with just their products alone and that's really the lead of this chart that really cuts to the chase do is you see you see red Red Hat openshift has really strong spending momentum although I will say if you back up back up to say April July October 18 19 it actually was a little higher so it's been pushed down remember this is the April survey that what's ran from mid-march to mid April so we're talking right in the middle of the pandemic okay so everybody's down but nonetheless you can see the opportunity is for IBM and Red Hat to kind of meet in the middle leverage IBM's massive install base in its in its services presence in its market presence its pervasiveness so AKA market share in this rubric and then use Red Hat's momentum and kind of meet in the middle and that's the kind of point that we have here with IBM's opportunity and that really is why IBM is a leader in at least a favorite in my view in multi cloud well Dave if you'd look two years ago and you said what was the competitive landscape Red Hat was an early leader in the kubernetes you know multi-cloud discussion today if you ask everybody well who's doing great and kubernetes you have to talk about all the different options that amazon has Amazon still has their own container management with ACS of course IKS is doing strong and well and Amazon whatever they do they we know they're going to be competitive Microsoft's there but it's not all about competition in this space Dave because you know we see Red Hat partnering across these environments they do have a partnership with AWS they do have you know partnership with you know Microsoft up on stage there so where it was really interesting Dave you know one of the things I was coming into this show looking is what is Red Hat's answer to what VMware is really starting to do in this space so vSphere 7 rolled out and that is the ga of project Pacific so taking virtualization in containers and putting them together Red Hat of course has had virtualization for a long time with KVM they have a different answer of how they're doing openshift virtualization and it rather than saying here's my virtual environment and i can also do kubernetes on it they're saying containers are the future and where you want to go and we can bring your VMs into containers really shift them the way you have really kind of a lift and shift but then modernize them Dave customers are good you know you want to meet customers where they are you want to help them move forward virtualization in general has been a you don't want to touch your applications you want to just you know let it ride forever but the real the real driver for companies today is I've got to build new apps I need to modernize on my environment and you know Red Hat is positioning and you know I like what I'm hearing from them I like what I'm hearing from my dad's customers on how they're helping take both the physical the virtual the containers in the cloud and bring them all into this modern era yeah and and you know IBM made an early bet on on kubernetes and obviously around Red Hat you could see actually on that earlier slide we showed you IBM we didn't really talk about it they said they had 23% growth in cloud which is that they're a twenty two billion dollar business for IBM you're smiling yeah look good for IBM they're gonna redefine cloud you know let AWS you know kick and scream they're gonna say hey here's how we define cloud we include our own pram we include Cano portions of our consulting business I mean I honestly have no idea what's in the 22 billion and how if they're growing 22 billion at 23% wow that's pretty awesome I'm not sure I think they're kind of mixing apples and oranges there but it makes for a good slide yeah you would say wait shouldn't that be four billion you added he only added two or three billion you know numbers can tell a story but you can also manipulate but the point is the point is I've always said this near term the to get you know return on this deal it's about plugging OpenShift into services and modernizing applications long term it's about maintaining IBM and red-hats relevance in the hybrid cloud world which is I don't know how big it is it's a probably a trillion-dollar opportunity that really is critical from a strategy standpoint do I want to ask you about the announcements what about any announcements that you saw coming from Red Hat are relevant what do we need to know there yeah so you know one of the bigger ones we already talked about that you know multi cloud manager what Red Hat has the advanced cluster management or ACM absolutely is an era an area we should look VMware Tong's ooh Azure Ark Google anthos and now ACM from Red Hat in partnership with IBM is an area still really early Dave I talked to some of the executives in the space and say you know are we going to learn from the mistakes of multi vendor management Dave you know you think about the CA and BMC you know exactly of the past will we have learned for those is this the right way to do it it is early but Red Hat obviously has a position here and they're doing it um did hear plenty about how Red Hat is plugging into all the IBM environments Dave Z power you know the cloud solutions and of course you know IBM solutions across the board my point of getting a little blue wash but hey it's got to happen I think that's a smart move right you know we talked about you know really modernizing the applications in the environments I talked a bit about the virtualization piece the other one if you say okay how do I pull the virtualization forward what about the future so openshift serverless is the other one it's really a tech preview at this point it's built off of the K native project which is part of the CNC F which is basically how do I still have you know containers and kubernetes underneath can that plug into server list order server let's get it rid of it everything so IBM Oracle Red Hat and others really been pushing hard on this Kay native solution it is matured a lot there's an ecosystem growing as how it can connect to Asher how it can connect to AWS so definitely something from that appdev piece to watch and Dave that's where I had some really good discussions with customers as well as the the Red Hat execs and their partners that boundary between the infrastructure team and the app dev team they're hoping to pull them together and some of the tooling actually helps ansible is a great example of that in the past but you know others in the portfolio and lastly if you want to talk a huge opportunity for Red Hat IBM and it's a jump ball for everyone is edge computing so Red Hat I've talked to them for years about what they were doing in the opened stack community with network function virtualization or NFV Verizon was up on stage I've got an interview for Red Hat summit with Vodafone idea which has 300 million subscribers in India and you know the Red Hat portfolio really helping a lot of the customers there so it's the telco edge is where we see a strong push there it's definitely something we've been watching from the you know the big cloud players and those partnerships Dave so you know last year Satya Nadella was up on the main stage with Red Hat this year Scott Guthrie you know there he's at every Microsoft show and he's not the red head show so it is still ironic for those of us that have watched this industry and you say okay where are some of the important partnerships for Red Hat its Microsoft I mean you know we all remember when you know open-source was the you know evil enemy for from Microsoft and of course Satya Nadella has changed things a lot it's interesting to watch I'm sure we'll talk more at think Dave you know Arvind Krishna the culture he will bring in with the support of Jim Whitehurst comes over from IBM compared to what Satya has successfully done at Microsoft well let's talk about that let's let's talk about let's bring it home with the sort of near-term midterm and really I want to talk about the long term strategic aspects of IBM and Red Hat's future so near-term IBM is suspended guidance like everybody okay they don't have great visibility some some some things to watch by the way a lot of people are saying no just you know kind of draw draw a red line through this quarter you just generally ignore it I disagree look at cash flow look balance sheets look at what companies are doing and how they're positioning that's very important right now and will give us some clues and so there's a couple of things that we're watching with IBM one is their software business crashed in March and software deals usually come in big deals come in at the end of the quarter people were too distracted they they stopped spending so that's a concern Jim Cavanaugh on the call talked about how they're really paying attention to those services contracts to see how they're going are they continuing what's the average price of those so that's something that you got to watch you know near-term okay fine again as I said I think IBM will get through this what really I want to talk about to do is the the prospects going forward I'm really excited about the choice that IBM made the board putting Arvind Krishna in charge and the move that he made in terms of promoting you know Jim Whitehurst to IBM so let's talk about that for a minute Arvind is a technical visionary and it's it's high time that I VM got back to it being a technology company first because that's what IBM is and and I mean Lou Gerstner you know arguably save the company they pivoted to services Sam Palmisano continue that when Ginny came in you know she had a services heritage she did the PWC deal and IBM really became a services company first in my view Arvind is saying explicitly we want to lead with technology and I think that's the right move of course iBM is going to deliver outcomes that's what high-beams heritage has been for the last 20 years but they are a technology company and having a technology visionary at the lead is very important why because IBM essentially is the leader prior to Red Hat and one thing mainframes IBM used to lead in database that used to lead in storage they used to lead in the semiconductors on and on and on servers now they lead in mainframes and and now switch to look at Red Hat Red Hat's a leader you know they got the best product out there so I want you to talk about how you see that shift to more of a sort of technical and and product focus preserving obviously but your thoughts on the move the culture you're putting Jim as the president I love it I think it was actually absolutely brilliant yeah did Dave absolutely I know we were excited because we you know personally we know both of those leaders they are strong leaders they are strong technically Dave when I think about all the companies we look at I challenge anybody to find a more consistent and reliable pair of companies than IBM and Red Hat you know for years it was you know red hat being an open-source company and you know the way their business model said it it's not the you know Evan flow of product releases we know what the product is going to be the roadmaps are all online and they're gonna consistently grow what we've seen Red Hat go from kind of traditional software models to the subscription model and there are some of the product things we didn't get into too much as to things that they have built into you know Red Hat Enterprise Linux and expanding really their cloud and SAS offerings to enhance those environments and that that's where IBM is pushing to so you know there's been some retooling for the modern era they are well positioned to help customers through that you know digital transformation and as you said Dave you and I we both read the open organization by Jim lighters you know he came in to Red Hat you know really gave some strong leadership the culture is strong they they have maintained you know really strong morale and I talked to people inside you know was their concern inside when IBM was making the acquisition of course there was we've all seen some acquisitions that have gone great when IBM has blue washed them they're trying to make really strong that Red Hat stays Red Hat to your point you know Dave we've already seen some IBM people go in and some of the leadership now is on the IBM side so you know can they improve the product include though improve those customer outcomes and can Red Hat's culture actually help move IBM forward you know company with over a hundred years and over 200,000 employees you'd normally look and say can a 12,000 person company change that well with a new CEO with his wing and you know being whitehurst driving that there's a possibility so it's an interesting one to watch you know absolutely current situations are challenging you know red hats growth is really about adding new logos and that will be challenged in the short term yeah Dave I I love you shouldn't let people off the hook for q2 maybe they need to go like our kids this semester is a pass/fail rather than a grid then and then a letter grade yeah yeah and I guess my point is that there's information and you got to squint through it and I think that look at to me you know this is like Arvin's timing couldn't be better not that he orchestrated it but I mean you know when Ginny took over I mean was over a hundred million a hundred billion I said many times that I beams got a shrink to grow she just ran out of time for the Gro part that's now on Arvind and I think that so he's got the cove in mulligan first of all you know the stocks been been pressured down so you know his tenure he's got a great opportunity to do with IBM in a way what such an adela did is doing at Microsoft you think about it they're both deep technologists you know Arvind hardcore you know computer scientist Indian Institute of Technology Indian Institute of Technology different school than Satya went to but still steeped in in a technical understanding a technical visionary who can really Drive you know product greatness you know in a I would with with Watson we've talked a lot about hybrid cloud quantum is something that IBM is really investing heavily in and that's a super exciting area things like blockchain some of these new areas that I think IBM can lead and it's all running on the cloud you know look IBM generally has been pretty good with acquisitions they yes they fumbled a few but I've always made the point they are in the cloud game IBM and Oracle yeah they're behind from a you know market share standpoint but they're in the game and they have their software estate in their pass a state to insulate them from the race to the bottom so I really like their prospects and I like the the organizational structure that they put in place in it by the way it's not just Arvind Jim you mentioned Paul Cormier you know Rob Thomas has been been elevated to senior VP really important in the data analytic space so a lot of good things going on there yeah and Dave one of the questions you've been asking and we've been all talking to leaders in the industry you know what changes permanently after the this current situation you know automation you know more adoption of cloud the importance of developers are there's even more of a spotlight on those environments and Red Hat has strong positioning in that space a lot of experience that they help their customers and being open source you know very transparent there I both IBM and Red Hat are doing a lot to try to help the community they've got contests going online to you know help get you know open source and hackers and people working on things and you know strong leadership to help lead through these stormy weathers so Stuart's gonna be really interesting decade and the cube will be here to cover it hopefully hopefully events will come back until they do will be socially responsible and and socially distant but Stu thanks for helping us break down the the red hat and sort of tipping our toe into IBM more coverage and IBM think and next week this is Dave alotta for Stu minimun you're watching the cube and our continuous coverage of the Red Hat summit keep it right there be back after this short break you [Music]