>>Okay. Okay. We're back on the cube here in cloud city. I'm John Farah, David latte. Thanks Adam. And guys in the studio. Awesome stuff. Dave mobile world Congress is happening. It's basically a hybrid show. Mostly virtual. Actually the physical action is a lot of booths. Cloud city is tricked out, big time made for TV. The cubes, obviously here, we've got the main stage with Adam and crew, Chloe and team, and it's pretty, pretty cool. Cloud cities, thematic John, we're going to see the next decade be about the cloudification of telco and major, major portions of telco. We're going to move to the cloud. It's very clear. And especially the front end stuff, a lot of the business support systems, some of the operational systems are going to go. When you're seeing that, you're seeing that with Amazon, you're seeing Microsoft, you're seeing Google. They're all moving in that direction. >>So it's inevitable. And I just love the fact that events are back. That's a game changing statement. Mobile world. Congress is not going to go away. There's no way they're going to let this event slide by. Even though we're coming out of the pandemic, clearly Bon Jovi was here. He said, quote, we met him last night, face to face. He's like, go Patriots. Hope they have a good season. This year. He's a big Patriots fan. He said, it's going to be better. This could be better. But he also said he it's the first time he's performed in a year and a half in front of all excited. He wasn't calm, small little intimate crowd. Again, look behind this. You can see the cloud city. This is really built out extremely well. A lot of executives here, but the content has been awesome here, but also remote. We've been bringing people in live remotes and we also had some prerecorded assets that we have. And we've got one here from Booz Allen, who I had a conversation with earlier in the month and grab some time to talk about the impact of 5g telecom and how it relates to national security for cover mints and society. And so let's take a look at that video right now. >>Hi, welcome to the cube conversation here in the cube studios in Palo Alto, California, I'm John for a, your host had a great conversation with two great guests gonna explore the edge, what it means in terms of commercial, but also national security. And as the world goes digital, we're going to have the deep dive conversation around, um, how it's all transforming. We've got Kate Lee, vice president Booz Allen's digital business. Kate. Great to have you, uh, John Paisano principal at Booz Allen's digital cloud solutions. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. So one of the most hottest topics, obviously besides cloud computing, having the most refactoring impact on business and government and public sector has been the next phase of cloud growth and cloud scale, and that's really modern applications, um, and consumer, and then here, uh, for national security and for governments here in the U S is in the military impact. >>And as digital transformation starts to go to the next level, you starting to see the architectures emerge, where the edge, the IOT edge, the industrial IOT edge, or any kind of edge concept 5g is exploding, making that much more of a dense, more throughput for connectivity with wireless. You've got Amazon with snowballs, snowmobile, all kinds of ways to deploy technology. That's it like and operational technologies it's causing quite a cloud operational opportunity and disruption. So I want to get into it. Let's key. Let's start with you. I mean, we're looking at an architecture, that's changing both commercial and public sector with the edge. What are the key considerations that you guys see as people have to really move fast and this new architecture of digital, >>Which I think is a great question. And, um, if I could just, uh, share our observation on why we even started investing in edge, um, you mentioned cloud, um, but as we've reflected upon kind of the history of it on you to take a look from mainframes to desktops, to servers, to a cloud, to mobile, and now I have a T what we observed was that, um, industry investing in infrastructure led to kind of an evolution of, uh, uh, of it, right? So as you mentioned with industry spending billions on IOT and edge, um, we've just feel that that's going to be the next evolution. Um, if you've take a look at, um, you mentioned 5g, I think 5g will be certainly, um, an accelerator to edge, um, because of the, the resilience, the lower latency and so forth, but, um, taking a look at what's happening in space, you mentioned space earlier as well, right. >>Um, and, uh, what, uh, Starlink is doing by putting satellites to actually provide transport into the space. Um, we're thinking that that actually is going to be the next ubiquitous thing. Once transport becomes ubiquitous, just like cloud allows stores to be ubiquitous. We think that, you know, the next generation internet will be space-based. Um, so when you think about it, um, connected, it won't be connected servers per se. It will be connected devices. Um, so, uh, that's kind of, you know, some of the observations and why we've been really focusing on investing in, in edge. >>Awesome. I'd love to sh to, uh, continue the conversation on space and the edge, um, and super great conversation to have you guys on and really appreciate it. I do want to ask you guys about the innovation and the opportunities, uh, this new shift that's happening is the next big thing is coming quickly and it's here on us and that's cloud. I call it cloud 2.0, the cloud scale, modern software development environment, uh, edge with 5g changing the game. I key, I completely agree with you. And I think this is where people are focusing their attention from startups to companies that are transforming and repivoting, or refactoring their, their, uh, existing assets to be positioned. And you're starting to see clear winners and losers as a pattern emerge, right? You gotta be in the cloud, you gotta be leveraging data. You gotta be, uh, horizontally scalable, but you've gotta have AI machine learning in there with modern software practices that are secure. >>That's the playbook. Some people are it, some people are not getting there. So I got to ask you guys, you know, as telcos become super important and the ability to be a telco. Now, we just mentioned standing up a tactical edge, for instance, uh, launching a satellite couple of hundred K you're going to launch a cube set. Um, that could be good and bad, right? So, so, you know, the telco business is changing radically cloud telco cloud is emerging as an edge phenomenon with 5g, certainly business commercial benefits, more than consumer. How do you guys see the innovation and disruption happening with telco? >>Um, you know, as we think through, um, cloud to edge, um, one thing that we realized, because our definition of edge, John was actually at the point of data collection, right on the sensor themselves, others definition of edge is we're a little bit further back when we call it the edge of the it enterprise. Um, but you know, as we look at this, we realize that you need, you needed this kind of multi echelon environment, right? From your cloud to your tactical clouds, right. Where you can do some processing and then at the edge themselves, really at the end of the day, it's all about, I think, data, right? I mean, everything we're talking about is still all about the data, right? The AI needs to Dane, the telco is transporting the data. Right. And so, um, I think if you think about it from a data perspective, in relationship to telcos, right, one edge will actually enable a very different paradigm in a distributed paradigm for data processing. Right. So instead of bringing the data to some central cloud, right. Um, which takes bandwidth off your telcos, push the products to the data, right. So mitigate, what's actually being sent over to those telco lines to increase the efficiencies of them. Right. Um, so I think, you know, at the end of the day, uh, the telcos are gonna have a pretty big, uh, component to this, um, even from space down to ground station, right. How that works. Um, so, um, the, the network of these telcos, I think, are just going to expand >>John, what's your perspective. I mean, startups are coming out. The scalability speed of innovation is a big factor. The old telco days had like, I mean, you know, months and years, new towers go up and now you've got backbone. You've got, you know, it's kind of a slow glacier pace. Now it's under siege with rapid innovation. >>Yeah. So, um, I definitely echo the sentiments that Q would have, but I would also, if we go back and think about the digital battle space and what we've talked about, um, faster speeds being available, you know, in places it's not been before is great. However, when you think about basing an adversary, that's a near peer threat. The first thing they're going to do is make it contested congested, and you have to be able to survive. I, while yes, the, the pace of innovation is absolutely pushing comms. The places we've not had it before. Um, we have to be mindful to not get complacent and over rely on it, assuming it will always be there because I know in my experience wearing the uniform and even if I'm up against it adversary, that's the first thing I'm gonna do is I'm going to do whatever I can to disrupt your ability to communicate. So how do you take it down to that lowest level and still make that squad, the platoon, whatever that structure is, you know, continued some survivable and lethal. And so that's something I think, as we look at the innovations, we need to be mindful of that so low. And I talk about how do you architect it? What services do you use? Those are all those things that you have to think about. What if I lose it at this echelon? How could, how do I continue to mission? >>Yeah. It's interesting. Mean if you look at how companies have been procuring and consuming technology key, it's been like siloed. Okay. We've got a workplace workforce project, uh, and we have the tactical edge and we have the, you know, siloed it solution when really work in play, whether it's work here. And John's example is the war fighter. And so his concern is safety is his life. Right. And, and protection, the department has to manage the coms. And so they have to have countermeasures and contingencies ready to go. Right. So all this is integrate integrated. Now it's not like one department it's like, it's it's together. >>Yeah. Do you, I mean, you're, you're, uh, I love what you just said. I mean, we have to get away from this siloed siloed banking. Um, not only within a single organization, but across the enterprise. Right. Um, you know, from a digital battlefield perspective, you know, I, you know, it's a joint fight, right. So even across these enterprise of enterprises, right. So I think you're spot on. We have to look horizontally, uh, we have to integrate, we have to inter-operate. Um, and, and by doing that, that's where the innovation is also going to be accelerated too. Right. Not reinventing the wheel. >>Yeah. You know, I think the infrastructure edge is so key. It's going to be very interesting to see how the existing incumbents can handle themselves. Obviously the towers are important. Five GLC has much more, more deployments, not as centralized in terms of the, of the spectrum. Uh, it's more dense. It's gonna create more connectivity options. Um, how do you guys see that impacting? Because certainly more gear, like, obviously not, not the centralized tower from a backhaul standpoint, but now the edge, the radios themselves, the wireless, uh, uh, uh, transit is key. Um, that's the real edge here. How does, how do you guys see that evolving? >>So, um, you know, we're seeing, uh, we're seeing a lot of, um, innovations actually through small companies. We're really focused on very specific niche problems. I think it's a great starting point, um, because what they're doing is showing the art of the possible, right. Um, because again, we're in a different environment now there's different rules, there's different capabilities now, but then we're also seeing, you mentioned earlier on, um, uh, some of the larger companies, Amazon and Microsoft also investing, um, as well. Right. So, um, I think the merge of the, you know, are the unconstrained are the possible right by these small companies that are, you know, just kind of driving, you know, uh, innovations, uh, supported by the, the, the maturity and the, the, the heft of these large companies who are building out kind of these, um, pardoned kind of, uh, capabilities. Um, they're going to converge at some point, right. Um, and, and that's where I think they want to get further innovation. >>Well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Final question for you guys, as people are watching this, a lot of smart executives and teams are coming together to kind of put the battle plans together for their companies, as they transition from old to this new way, which is clearly cloud-scale role of data. We've got them, we hit out all the key points. I think here, as they start to think about architecture and how they deploy their resources, this becomes now the new boardroom conversation that trickles down and includes everyone, including the developers. You know, the developers are now going to be on the front lines. Um, mid-level managers are going to be integrated in as well. It's a group conversation. What are some of the advice that you would give to folks who are in this mode of planning, architecture, trying to be positioned to come out of this pandemic with a massive growth opportunity and, and to be on the right side of history? What's your advice? >>Um, this is a quick question. Um, so I think, um, you, you touched upon it. Um, one is take the holistic approach. Uh, you mentioned orchestras a couple of times, and I think that's, that's critical understanding, um, how your edge architectures will let you connect with your cloud architecture. So they're, they're not disjointed, right? They're not siloed, right. They're interoperable, they integrate. So you're taking that enterprise approach. Um, I think the second thing is be patient. Uh, it took us some time to really kind of, and we've been looking at this for, uh, about three years now. Um, and we were very intentional in assessing the landscape, how people were, you know, um, discussing around edge, um, and kind of pulling that all together, but it took us some time to even figure it out, kind of, Hey, what are the use cases? How can we actually apply this and get some ROI and value, um, out for our clients? Right. So being a little bit patient, um, in thinking through kind of how you can leverage this and potentially be a disruptor, >>John, your thoughts on advice to people watching as they try to put the right plans together to be positioned and not foreclose any future value. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, in addition to the points, the key res I would, number one, amplified the fact of recognize that you're going to have a hybrid environment of legacy and modern capabilities. And in addition to thinking, you know, open architectures and whatnot, think about your culture, the people, your processes, your techniques, and whatnot, and your governance. How do you make decisions when it needs to be closed versus open? Where do you invest in the workforce? What decisions are you going to make in your architecture that drive that, that hybrid world that you're going to live in? All those recipes, you know, patients open all that, that I think we often overlook the cultural people aspect of, you know, upskilling it, this is a very different way of thinking on modern software delivery. Like, how do you go through this lifecycle? How's security embedded. So making sure that's part of that boardroom conversation >>Back day, this is a great interview. We just had with Kaley for Booz Allen reason, why I wanted to bring that into the cube programming this week was because you heard him saying ivory cloud. You heard him say public cloud innovation, edge, all elements of the architecture. And he says, we are learning and it takes patience. And the other thing that he was hyper focused on was the horizontal scalability, not silos. And this is an architectural shift. Who's Alan again, premier firm, and they're doing like killer work. Those guys are amazing. So this brings up the whole theme here, which is you got to nail the architecture. If you don't know what checkmate looks like, don't play chess. That's what I always say. Well, you don't know what the game is, don't play it. And I think the telco story that we hear from Dr is that these guys don't know the game. >>Now I would question that Amazon and others think they do because as they're all partnering with them, yeah, Amazon's got great partnerships. Google just announced a partnership with Ericsson goes on and on. I think anything that can move into the hybrid cloud, Ken should and will that'll happen, but there's some stuff that's going to take some time. Maybe we'll never move. You see that with mainframes. But what they'll do is they'll put an abstraction layer around it and it's got to communicate. And I think the big question is, okay, is it going to be the cloud stack coming on prem, which I think is going to happen, or is it going to be the reverse? And I would bet on the former, well, you know, we've been covering the cloud from day one. We've been part of that wave. We've had all the top conversations with Andy Jassy when, and he was just breaking through the growth. All the cloud players we've been there. We talked to all their customers. We have our finger on the pulse of cloud and we are in cloud city. Main street of cloud city is where all the action is. And the main stage is up there. Adam and team take it from here.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Well, welcome to theCUBE Conversation here in theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, your host. Got a great conversation with two great guests, going to explore the edge, what it means in terms of commercial, but also national security. And as the world goes digital, we're going to have that deep dive conversation around how it's all transforming. We've got Ki Lee, Vice President of Booz Allen's Digital Business. Ki, great to have you. John Pisano, Principal at Booz Allen's Digital Cloud Solutions. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on. >> And thanks for having us, John. >> So one of the most hottest topics, obviously besides cloud computing having the most refactoring impact on business and government and public sector has been the next phase of cloud growth and cloud scale, and that's really modern applications and consumer, and then here for national security and for governments here in the U.S. is military impact. And as digital transformation starts to go to the next level, you're starting to see the architectures emerge where the edge, the IoT edge, the industrial IoT edge, or any kind of edge concept, 5G is exploding, making that much more of a dense, more throughput for connectivity with wireless. You got Amazon with Snowball, Snowmobile, all kinds of ways to deploy technology, that's IT like and operational technologies. It's causing quite a cloud operational opportunity and disruption, so I want to get into it. Ki, let's start with you. I mean, we're looking at an architecture that's changing both commercial and public sector with the edge. What are the key considerations that you guys see as people have to really move fast in this new architecture of digital? >> Yeah, John, I think it's a great question. And if I could just share our observation on why we even started investing in edge. You mentioned the cloud, but as we've reflected upon kind of the history of IT, then you take a look from mainframes to desktops to servers to cloud to mobile and now IoT, what we observed was that industry investing in infrastructure led to kind of an evolution of IT, right? So as you mentioned, with industry spending billions on IoT and edge, we just feel that that's going to be the next evolution. If you take a look at, you mentioned 5G, I think 5G will be certainly an accelerator to edge because of the resilience, the lower latency and so forth. But taking a look at what's happening in space, you mentioned space earlier as well, right, and what Starlink is doing by putting satellites to actually provide transport into the space, we're thinking that that actually is going to be the next ubiquitous thing. Once transport becomes ubiquitous, just like cloud allows storage to be ubiquitous. We think that the next generation internet will be space-based. So when you think about it, connected, it won't be connected servers per se, it will be connected devices. >> John: Yeah, yeah. >> That's kind of some of the observations and why we've been really focusing on investing in edge. >> I want to come back to that piece around space and edge and bring it from a commercial and then also tactical architecture in a minute 'cause there's a lot to unpack there, role of open source, modern application development, software and hardware supply chains, all are core issues that are going to emerge. But I want to get with John real quick on cloud impact, because you think about 5G and the future of work or future of play, you've got people, right? So whether you're at a large concert like Coachella or a 49ers or Patriots game or Redskins game if you're in the D.C. area, you got people there, of congestion, and now you got devices now serving those people. And that's their play, people at work, whether it's a military operation, and you've got work, play, tactical edge things. How is cloud connecting? 'Cause this is like the edge has never been kind of an IT thing. It's been more of a bandwidth or either telco or something else operationally. What's the cloud at scale, cloud operations impact? >> Yeah, so if you think about how these systems are architected and you think about those considerations that Ki kind of touched on, a lot of what you have to think about now is what aspects of the application reside in the cloud, where you tend to be less constrained. And then how do you architect that application to move out towards the edge, right? So how do I tier my application? Ultimately, how do I move data and applications around the ecosystem? How do I need to evolve where my application stages things and how that data and those apps are moved to each of those different tiers? So when we build a lot of applications, especially if they're in the cloud, they're built with some of those common considerations of elasticity, scalability, all those things; whereas when you talk about congestion and disconnected operations, you lose a lot of those characteristics, and you have to kind of rethink that. >> Ki, let's get into the aspect you brought up, which is space. And then I was mentioning the tactical edge from a military standpoint. These are use cases of deployments, and in fact, this is how people have to work now. So you've got the future of work or play, and now you've got the situational deployments, whether it's a new tower of next to a stadium. We've all been at a game or somewhere or a concert where we only got five bars and no connectivity. So we know what that means. So now you have people congregating in work or play, and now you have a tactical deployment. What's the key things that you're seeing that it's going to help make that better? Are there any breakthroughs that you see that are possible? What's going on in your view? >> Yeah, I mean, I think what's enabling all of this, again, one is transport, right? So whether it's 5G to increase the speed and decrease the latency, whether it's things like Starlink with making transport and comms ubiquitous, that tied with the fact that ships continue to get smaller and faster, right? And when you're thinking about tactical edge, those devices have limited size, weight, power conditions and constraints. And so the software that goes on them has to be just as lightweight. And that's why we've actually partnered with SUSE and what they've done with K3s to do that. So I think those are some of the enabling technologies out there. John, as you've kind of alluded to it, there are additional challenges as we think about it. We're not, it's not a simple transition and monetization here, but again, we think that this will be the next major disruption. >> What do you guys think, John, if you don't mind weighing in too on this as modern application development happens, we just were covering CloudNativeCon and KubeCon, DockerCon, containers are very popular. Kubernetes is becoming super great. As you look at the telco landscape where we're kind of converging this edge, it has to be commercially enterprise grade. It has to have that transit and transport that's intelligent and all these new things. How does open source fit into all this? Because we're seeing open source becoming very reliable, more people are contributing to open source. How does that impact the edge in your opinion? >> So from my perspective, I think it's helping accelerate things that traditionally maybe may have been stuck in the traditional proprietary software confines. So within our mindset at Booz Allen, we were very focused on open architecture, open based systems, which open source obviously is an aspect of that. So how do you create systems that can easily interface with each other to exchange data, and how do you leverage tools that are available in the open source community to do that? So containerization is a big drive that is really going throughout the open source community. And there's just a number of other tools, whether it's tools that are used to provide basic services like how do I move code through a pipeline all the way through? How do I do just basic hardening and security checking of my capabilities? Historically, those have tend to be closed source type apps, whereas today you've got a very broad community that's able to very quickly provide and develop capabilities and push it out to a community that then continues to adapt and add to it or grow that library of stuff. >> Yeah, and then we've got trends like Open RAN. I saw some Ground Station for the AWS. You're starting to see Starlink, you mentioned. You're bringing connectivity to the masses. What is that going to do for operators? Because remember, security is a huge issue. We talk about security all the time. Where does that kind of come in? Because now you're really OT, which has been very purpose-built kind devices in the old IoT world. As the new IoT and the edge develop, you're going to need to have intelligence. You're going to be data-driven. There is an open source impact key. So, how, if I'm a senior executive, how do I get my arms around this? I really need to think this through because the security risks alone could be more penetration areas, more surface area. >> Right. That's a great question. And let me just address kind of the value to the clients and the end users in the digital battlefield as our warriors to increase survivability and lethality. At the end of the day from a mission perspective, we know we believe that time's a weapon. So reducing any latency in that kind of observe, orient, decide, act OODA loop is value to the war fighter. In terms of your question on how to think about this, John, you're spot on. I mean, as I've mentioned before, there are various different challenges, one, being the cyber aspect of it. We are absolutely going to be increasing our attack surface when you think about putting processing on edge devices. There are other factors too, non-technical that we've been thinking about s we've tried to kind of engender and kind of move to this kind of edge open ecosystem where we can kind of plug and play, reuse, all kind of taking the same concepts of the open-source community and open architectures. But other things that we've considered, one, workforce. As you mentioned before, when you think about these embedded systems and so forth, there aren't that many embedded engineers out there. But there is a workforce that are digital and software engineers that are trained. So how do we actually create an abstraction layer that we can leverage that workforce and not be limited by some of the constraints of the embedded engineers out there? The other thing is what we've, in talking with several colleagues, clients, partners, what people aren't thinking about is actually when you start putting software on these edge devices in the billions, the total cost of ownership. How do you maintain an enterprise that potentially consists of billions of devices? So extending the standard kind of DevSecOps that we move to automate CI/CD to a cloud, how do we move it from cloud to jet? That's kind of what we say. How do we move DevSecOps to automate secure containers all the way to the edge devices to mitigate some of those total cost of ownership challenges. >> It's interesting, as you have software defined, this embedded system discussion is hugely relevant and important because when you have software defined, you've got to be faster in the deployment of these devices. You need security, 'cause remember, supply chain on the hardware side and software in that too. >> Absolutely. >> So if you're going to have a serviceability model where you have to shift left, as they say, you got to be at the point of CI/CD flows, you need to be having security at the time of coding. So all these paradigms are new in Day-2 operations. I call it Day-0 operations 'cause it should be in everyday too. >> Yep. Absolutely. >> But you've got to service these things. So software supply chain becomes a very interesting conversation. It's a new one that we're having on theCUBE and in the industry Software supply chain is a superly relevant important topic because now you've got to interface it, not just with other software, but hardware. How do you service devices in space? You can't send a break/fix person in space. (chuckles) Maybe you will soon, but again, this brings up a whole set of issues. >> No, so I think it's certainly, I don't think anyone has the answers. We sure don't have all the answers but we're very optimistic. If you take a look at what's going on within the U.S. Air Force and what the Chief Software Officer Nic Chaillan and his team, and we're a supporter of this and a plankowner of Platform One. They were ahead of the curve in kind of commoditizing some of these DevSecOps principles in partnership with the DoD CIO and that shift left concept. They've got a certified and accredited platform that provides that DevSecOps. They have an entire repository in the Iron Bank that allows for hardened containers and reciprocity. All those things are value to the mission and around the edge because those are all accelerators. I think there's an opportunity to leverage industry kind of best practices as well and patterns there. You kind of touched upon this, John, but these devices honestly just become firmware. The software is just, if the devices themselves just become firmware , you can just put over the wire updates onto them. So I'm optimistic. I think all the piece parts are taking place across industry and in the government. And I think we're primed to kind of move into this next evolution. >> Yeah. And it's also some collaboration. What I like about, why I'm bringing up the open source angle and I think this is where I think the major focus will shift to, and I want to get your reaction to it is because open source is seeing a lot more collaboration. You mentioned some of the embedded devices. Some people are saying, this is the weakest link in the supply chain, and it can be shored up pretty quickly. But there's other data, other collective intelligence that you can get from sharing data, for instance, which hasn't really been a best practice in the cybersecurity industry. So now open source, it's all been about sharing, right? So you got the confluence of these worlds colliding, all aspects of culture and Dev and Sec and Ops and engineering all coming together. John, what's your reaction to that? Because this is a big topic. >> Yeah, so it's providing a level of transparency that historically we've not seen, right? So in that community, having those pipelines, the results of what's coming out of it, it's allowing anyone in that life cycle or that supply chain to look at it, see the state of it, and make a decision on, is this a risk I'm willing to take or not? Or am I willing to invest and personally contribute back to the community to address that because it's important to me and it's likely going to be important to some of the others that are using it? So I think it's critical, and it's enabling that acceleration and shift that I talked about, that now that everybody can see it, look inside of it, understand the state of it, contribute to it, it's allowing us to break down some of the barriers that Ki talked about. And it reinforces that excitement that we're seeing now. That community is enabling us to move faster and do things that maybe historically we've not been able to do. >> Ki, I'd love to get your thoughts. You mentioned battlefield, and I've been covering a lot of the tactical edge around the DOD's work. You mentioned about the military on the Air Force side, Platform One, I believe, was from the Air Force work that they've done, all cloud native kind of directions. But when you talk about a war field, you talk about connectivity. I mean, who controls the DNS in Taiwan, or who controls the DNS in Korea? I mean, we have to deploy, you've got to stand up infrastructure. How about agility? I mean, tactical command and control operations, this has got to be really well done. So this is not a trivial thing. >> No. >> How are you seeing this translate into the edge innovation area? (laughs) >> It's certainly not a trivial thing, but I think, again, I'm encouraged by how government and industry are partnering up. There's a vision set around this joint all domain command control, JADC2. And then all the services are getting behind that, are looking into that, and this vision of this military, internet of military things. And I think the key thing there, John, as you mentioned, it's not just the connected of the sensors, which requires the transport again, but also they have to be interoperable. So you can have a bunch of sensors and platforms out there, they may be connected, but if they can't speak to one another in a common language, that kind of defeats the purpose and the mission value of that sensor or shooter kind of paradigm that we've been striving for for ages. So you're right on. I mean, this is not a trivial thing, but I think over history we've learned quite a bit. Technology and innovation is happening at just an amazing rate where things are coming out in months as opposed to decades as before. I agree, not trivial, but again, I think there are all the piece parts in place and being put into place. >> I think you mentioned earlier that the personnel, the people, the engineers that are out there, not enough, more of them coming in. I think now the appetite and the provocative nature of this shift in tech is going to attract a lot of people because the old adage is these are hard problems attracts great people. You got in new engineering, SRE like scale engineering. You have software development, that's changing, becoming much more robust and more science-driven. You don't have to be just a coder as a software engineer. You could be coming at it from any angle. So there's a lot more opportunities from a personnel standpoint now to attract great people, and there's real hard problems to solve, not just security. >> Absolutely. Definitely. I agree with that 100%. I would also contest that it's an opportunity for innovators. We've been thinking about this for some time, and we think there's absolute value from various different use cases that we've identified, digital battlefield, force protection, disaster recovery, and so forth. But there are use cases that we probably haven't even thought about, even from a commercial perspective. So I think there's going to be an opportunity just like the internet back in the mid '90s for us to kind of innovate based on this new kind of edge environment. >> It's a revolution. New leadership, new brands are going to emerge, new paradigms, new workflows, new operations, clearly great stuff. I want to thank you guys for coming on. I also want to thank Rancher Labs for sponsoring this conversation. Without their support, we wouldn't be here. And now they were acquired by SUSE. We've covered their event with theCUBE virtual last year. What's the connection with those guys? Can you guys take a minute to explain the relationship with SUSE and Rancher? >> Yeah. So it's actually it's fortuitous. And I think we just, we got lucky. There's two overall aspects of it. First of all, we are both, we partner on the Platform One basic ordering agreement. So just there we had a common mentality of DevSecOps. And so there was a good partnership there, but then when we thought about we're engaging it from an edge perspective, the K3s, right? I mean, they're a leader from a container perspective obviously, but the fact that they are innovators around K3s to reduce that software footprint, which is required on these edge devices, we kind of got a twofer there in that partnership. >> John, any comment on your end? >> Yeah, I would just amplify, the K3s aspects in leveraging the containers, a lot of what we've seen success in when you look at what's going on, especially on that tactical edge around enabling capabilities, containers, and the portability it provides makes it very easy for us to interface and integrate a lot of different sensors to close the OODA loop to whoever is wearing or operating that a piece of equipment that the software is running on. >> Awesome, I'd love to continue the conversation on space and the edge and super great conversation to have you guys on. Really appreciate it. I do want to ask you guys about the innovation and the opportunities of this new shift that's happening as the next big thing is coming quickly. And it's here on us and that's cloud, I call it cloud 2.0, the cloud scale, modern software development environment, edge with 5G changing the game. Ki, I completely agree with you. And I think this is where people are focusing their attention from startups to companies that are transforming and re-pivoting or refactoring their existing assets to be positioned. And you're starting to see clear winners and losers. There's a pattern emerging. You got to be in the cloud, you got to be leveraging data, you got to be horizontally scalable, but you got to have AI machine learning in there with modern software practices that are secure. That's the playbook. Some people are making it. Some people are not getting there. So I'd ask you guys, as telcos become super important and the ability to be a telco now, we just mentioned standing up a tactical edge, for instance. Launching a satellite, a couple of hundred K, you can launch a CubeSat. That could be good and bad. So the telco business is changing radically. Cloud, telco cloud is emerging as an edge phenomenon with 5G, certainly business commercial benefits more than consumer. How do you guys see the innovation and disruption happening with telco? >> As we think through cloud to edge, one thing that we realize, because our definition of edge, John, was actually at the point of data collection on the sensor themselves. Others' definition of edge is we're a little bit further back, what we call it the edge of the IT enterprise. But as we look at this, we realize that you needed this kind of multi echelon environment from your cloud to your tactical clouds where you can do some processing and then at the edge of themselves. Really at the end of the day, it's all about, I think, data, right? I mean, everything we're talking about, it's still all about the data, right? The AI needs the data, the telco is transporting the data. And so I think if you think about it from a data perspective in relationship to the telcos, one, edge will actually enable a very different paradigm and a distributed paradigm for data processing. So, hey, instead of bringing the data to some central cloud which takes bandwidth off your telcos, push the products to the data. So mitigate what's actually being sent over those telco lines to increase the efficiencies of them. So I think at the end of the day, the telcos are going to have a pretty big component to this, even from space down to ground station, how that works. So the network of these telcos, I think, are just going to expand. >> John, what's your perspective? I mean, startups are coming out. The scalability, speed of innovation is a big factor. The old telco days had, I mean, months and years, new towers go up and now you got a backbone. It's kind of a slow glacier pace. Now it's under siege with rapid innovation. >> Yeah, so I definitely echo the sentiments that Ki would have, but I would also, if we go back and think about the digital battle space and what we've talked about, faster speeds being available in places it's not been before is great. However, when you think about facing an adversary that's a near-peer threat, the first thing they're going to do is make it contested, congested, and you have to be able to survive. While yes, the pace of innovation is absolutely pushing comms to places we've not had it before, we have to be mindful to not get complacent and over-rely on it, assuming it'll always be there. 'Cause I know in my experience wearing the uniform, and even if I'm up against an adversary, that's the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to do whatever I can to disrupt your ability to communicate. So how do you take it down to that lowest level and still make that squad, the platoon, whatever that structure is, continue survivable and lethal. So that's something I think, as we look at the innovations, we need to be mindful of that. So when I talk about how do you architect it? What services do you use? Those are all those things that you have to think about. What if I lose it at this echelon? How do I continue the mission? >> Yeah, it's interesting. And if you look at how companies have been procuring and consuming technology, Ki, it's been like siloed. "Okay, we've got a workplace workforce project, and we have the tactical edge, and we have the siloed IT solution," when really work and play, whether it's work here in John's example, is the war fighter. And so his concern is safety, his life and protection. >> Yeah. >> The other department has to manage the comms, (laughs) and so they have to have countermeasures and contingencies ready to go. So all this is, they all integrate it now. It's not like one department. It's like it's together. >> Yeah. John, I love what you just said. I mean, we have to get away from this siloed thinking not only within a single organization, but across the enterprise. From a digital battlefield perspective, it's a joint fight, so even across these enterprise of enterprises, So I think you're spot on. We have to look horizontally. We have to integrate, we have to inter-operate, and by doing that, that's where the innovation is also going to be accelerated too, not reinventing the wheel. >> Yeah, and I think the infrastructure edge is so key. It's going to be very interesting to see how the existing incumbents can handle themselves. Obviously the towers are important. 5G obviously, that's more deployments, not as centralized in terms of the spectrum. It's more dense. It's going to create more connectivity options. How do you guys see that impacting? Because certainly more gear, like obviously not the centralized tower, from a backhaul standpoint but now the edge, the radios themselves, the wireless transit is key. That's the real edge here. How do you guys see that evolving? >> We're seeing a lot of innovations actually through small companies who are really focused on very specific niche problems. I think it's a great starting point because what they're doing is showing the art of the possible. Because again, we're in a different environment now. There's different rules. There's different capabilities. But then we're also seeing, you mentioned earlier on, some of the larger companies, the Amazons, the Microsofts, also investing as well. So I think the merge of the, you know, or the unconstrained or the possible by these small companies that are just kind of driving innovations supported by the maturity and the heft of these large companies who are building out these hardened kind of capabilities, they're going to converge at some point. And that's where I think we're going to get further innovation. >> Well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time. Final question for you guys, as people are watching this, a lot of smart executives and teams are coming together to kind of put the battle plans together for their companies as they transition from old to this new way, which is clearly cloud-scale, role of data. We hit out all the key points I think here. As they start to think about architecture and how they deploy their resources, this becomes now the new boardroom conversation that trickles down and includes everyone, including the developers. The developers are now going to be on the front lines. Mid-level managers are going to be integrated in as well. It's a group conversation. What are some of the advice that you would give to folks who are in this mode of planning architecture, trying to be positioned to come out of this pandemic with a massive growth opportunity and to be on the right side of history? What's your advice? >> It's such a great question. So I think you touched upon it. One is take the holistic approach. You mentioned architectures a couple of times, and I think that's critical. Understanding how your edge architectures will let you connect with your cloud architecture so that they're not disjointed, they're not siloed. They're interoperable, they integrate. So you're taking that enterprise approach. I think the second thing is be patient. It took us some time to really kind of, and we've been looking at this for about three years now. And we were very intentional in assessing the landscape, how people were discussing around edge and kind of pulling that all together. But it took us some time to even figure it out, hey, what are the use cases? How can we actually apply this and get some ROI and value out for our clients? So being a little bit patient in thinking through kind of how we can leverage this and potentially be a disruptor. >> John, your thoughts on advice to people watching as they try to put the right plans together to be positioned and not foreclose any future value. >> Yeah, absolutely. So in addition to the points that Ki raised, I would, number one, amplify the fact of recognize that you're going to have a hybrid environment of legacy and modern capabilities. And in addition to thinking open architectures and whatnot, think about your culture, the people, your processes, your techniques and whatnot, and your governance. How do you make decisions when it needs to be closed versus open? Where do you invest in the workforce? What decisions are you going to make in your architecture that drive that hybrid world that you're going to live in? All those recipes, patience, open, all that, that I think we often overlook the cultural people aspect of upskilling. This is a very different way of thinking on modern software delivery. How do you go through this lifecycle? How's security embedded? So making sure that's part of that boardroom conversation I think is key. >> John Pisano, Principal at Booz Allen Digital Cloud Solutions, thanks for sharing that great insight. Ki Lee, Vice President at Booz Allen Digital Business. Gentlemen, great conversation. Thanks for that insight. And I think people watching are going to probably learn a lot on how to evaluate startups to how they put their architecture together. So I really appreciate the insight and commentary. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay. I'm John Furrier. This is theCUBE Conversation. Thanks for watching. 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>> fly from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Google Club next nineteen Rock Tio by Google Cloud and its ecosystem Partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We're here live in San Francisco for cubes coverage of Google next twenty nineteen. I'm suffering my coast, David. Want to many men also doing interviews out, getting, reporting and collecting all the data. And we're gonna bring it back on the Q R. Next to gas mark in l. A. Who's a senior technical account manager? AccuWeather at enough was the director product manager. Google Cloud Platform. Now welcome back to the Cube and >> thank you for >> coming on. Thank you. >> You got a customer. Big customer focus here this year. Step function of just logo's growth. New announcements. Technical. Really good stuff. Yeah. What's going on? Give us the update. AP economies here, full throttle. >> I mean, you know, the great thing is it's a pea eye's on all fronts. So what you saw this morning was about standardizing the AP eyes that cloud infrastructure is based on. You saw, You know, how do we build applications with AP eyes at a finer grained level? Micro services, you know, And we've had a lot of great customer examples of people using, and that's what you know with AC. You weather here talking about how do you use a P ice to service and build business models reached developer ecosystems. So you know. So I look at everything today. It's every aspect of it brings it back home tape. Yas. >> It's just things that's so exciting because we think about the service model of cloud and on premise. And now cloud, it's integration and AP Eyes or Ki ki and all and only getting more functional. Talk about your implementation. Aki weather. What do you guys do with Apogee? Google clouds just chair. What >> would implementation is so accurate? There's been running an AP I service for the past ten years, and we have lots of enterprise clients, but we started to realize we're missing a whole business opportunity. So we partnered with Apogee, and we created a new self survey P developer portal that allows developers to go in there, sign up on their own and get started. And it's been great for us as far as like basically unlocking new revenue opportunities with the FBI's because, as he said, everything is a p i cz. We also say everything is impacted by the weather. So why not have everyone used ac you other empty eyes to fulfill their weather needs? >> It wasn't like early on when you guys were making this call, was it more like experimenting? Did men even have a clue where they're like You's a p I I was gonna start grass Roots >> Way knew right >> away like we were working very heavily with the enterprise clients. But we wanted to really cater to the small business Is the individual developers to weather enthusiasts are students. Even so, we wanted to have this easy interface that instead of talking to a sales rep, you could just go through this portal and sign upon your own. It get started and we knew right away there is money to be left or money to be had money left on the table. So we knew right away with by working with apogee and creating this portal, it would run itself. Everyone uses a P eyes and everyone needs to weather, so to make it easier to find and use >> and what was it like? Now let's see how >> it we've been using it now for about two years, and it's been very successful. We've we've seen great, rather revenue growth. And more importantly, it's worked as a great sales channel for us because now, instead of just going directly to an enterprise agreement and talking about legal terms and contracts, you can go through this incremental steps of signed up on your own. Do a free trial. Then you could buy a package. You can potentially increase your package, and we can then monitor that. Let them do it on their own, and it allows us ability to reach out to them and see could just be a new partner that we want to work with, or is there a greater opportunity there? So it's been great for us as faras elite generator in the sales channel to really more revenue, more opportunities and just more aware these'LL process a whole new business model. It's amore awareness, actually replies. Instead, people were trying to find us. Now it's out there and people see great Now it Khun, use it, Get started >> Admission in the back end. The National Weather Service, obviously the government's putting up balloons taking data and presumably and input to your models. How are they connecting in to the AP eyes? Maybe described that whole process. Yeah. Tilak, You other works >> of multiple weather providers and government agencies from around the world. It's actually one of our strengths because we are a global company, and we have those agreements with all kinds of countries around the world. So we ingest all of that data into our back and database, and then we surface it through our story and users. >> Okay, so they're not directly sort of plugging into that ap economy yet? Not yet. So we have to be right there. Well, I >> mean, for now we have the direct data feeds that were ingesting that data, and we make it available through the AC you other service, and we kind of unjust that data with some of our own. Augur those to kind of create our own AccuWeather forecast to >> That's actually a barrier to entry for you guys. The fact that you've built those pipelines from the back end and then you expose it at the front end and that's your business model. So okay, >> tell about that. We're where it goes from here because this is a great example of how silly the old way papering legal contracts. Now you go. It was supposed to maybe eyes exposing the data. Where does it go from here? Because now you've got, as were close, get more complex. This is part of the whole announcement of the new rebranding. The new capabilities around Antos, which is around Hey, you know, you could move complex work clothes. Certainly the service piece. We saw great news around that because it gets more complex with sap. Ichi, go from here. How did these guys go? The next level. >> So, you know, I think that the interesting thing is you look at some of the themes here that we've talked about. It's been about unlocking innovation. It's about providing ways that developers in a self service way Khun, get at the data. The resource is that they need ask. They need them to build these types of new types of applications and vacuum weather experience and their journey on. That's a great example of it. Look, you know, moving from from a set of enterprise customers that they were serving very well to the fact that really ah, whole ecosystem of applications need act needs access to weather data, and they knew that if they could just unlock that, that would be an incredibly powerful things. So we see a lot of variants of that. And in fact, a lot of what you see it's on announcements this morning with Google Cloud is part of that. You know, Google Cloud is very much about taking these resource is that Google is built that were available to a select few and unlocking those in a self service fashion, but in a standard way that developers anywhere and now with andthe oh, switches hybrid a multi cloud wherever they are being able to unlock those capabilities. So why've you? This is a continuation of a P. I promise. You know, we're very excited about this because what we're seeing is more and more applications that are being built across using AP eyes and more more environments. The great thing for Apogee is that any time people are trying to consume AP eyes in a self service fashion agile way, we're able to add value. >> So Allison Wagner earlier was we asked her about the brand promise, and she said, We want our customers, customers they're not help them innovate all the way down our customers customers level. So I'm thinking about whether whether it gets a bad rap, right? I mean, >> look at it >> for years and we make make jokes about the weather. But the weather has been looked uncannily accurate. These they used to be art. Now it's becoming more silent. So in the spirit of innovation, talk about what's happening just in terms of predicting whether it's, you know, big events, hurricanes, tornadoes and some of the innovation that's occurring on that end. >> Well, I mean, look at from a broader standpoint to weather impacts everything. I mean, as we say, you look at all the different products out there in the marketplace that use whether to enhance that. So there's things you can do for actionable decisions, too. It's not just what is the weather, it is. How can whether impact what I'm doing next, what I'm doing, where I go, what I wear, how I feel even said every day you make a conscious and subconscious decision based on the weather. So when you can put that into products and tools and services that help make those actionable decisions for the users. That makes it a very, very powerful products. That's why a lot of people are always seeking out whether data to use it to enhance their product. >> Give us an example. >> What So a famous story I even told Justin my session earlier. Connected Inhaler Company named co hero they use are FBI's by calling our current conditions every time a user had a respiratory attack over time, it started to build a database as the user is using your inhaler. Then use machine learning to kind of find potential weather triggers and learn pattern recognition to find in the future. Based on our forecast, a p I When white might that user have another attack? So buy this. It's a connected health product that's helping them monitor their own health and keep them safe and keep them prepared as opposed to being reactive. >> The inhaler is instrumented. Yeah, and he stated that the cloud >> and that's just that's just one product. I mean, there's all kinds of things connected, thermostats and connect that >> talks about the creativity of the application developer. I think this highlights to me what Deva is all about and what cloud and FBI's all about because you're exposing your resource products. You don't have to have a deaf guy going. Hey, let's car get the pollen application, Martin. Well, what the hell does that mean? You put the creativity of the in the edge, data gets integrated to the application. This kind of kind of hits on the core cloud value problems, which is let the data drive the value from the APP developer. Without your data, that APP doesn't have the value right. And there's multiple instances of weird what it could mean the most viable in golf Africa and Lightning. Abbott could be whatever. Exactly. So this is kind of the the notion of cloud productivity. >> Well, it's a notion of club activity. It's also this idea of a digital value change. So, you know, Data's products and AP Icer products. And and so now we see the emergence of a P I product managers. You know, you know this idea that we're going to go and build a whole ecosystem of products and applications, that meat, the whole set of customer needs that you might not even initially or ever imagine. I'm sure you folks see all the time new applications, new use cases. The idea is, you know, can I I take this capability or can I take this set of data, package it up us an a p I that any developer can use in anyway that they want to innovate on DH, build new functionality around, and it's a very exciting time in makes developers way more productive than they could have been in >> this talks about the C I C pipeline and and programmable bramble AP eyes. But you said something interesting. I wanna unpack real quick talk about this rise of a pipe product managers because, yes, this is really I think, a statement that not only is the FBI's around for a long time to stay, but this is instrumental value. Yes. What is it? A byproduct. Men and okay, what they do. >> So it's a new concept that has Well, I should say a totally new concept. If you talk to companies that have provided a P eyes, you go back to the the early days of you know, folks like eBay or flicker. All of these idea was that you can completely reinvent your business in the way that you partner with other companies by using AP eyes to tie these businesses together. And what you've now seen has been really, I'd say, over the last five years become a mainstream thing. You've got thousands of people out there and enterprises and Internet companies and all sorts of industries that are a P I product managers who are going in looking at how doe I packet a package up, the capabilities the business processes, the data that my business has built and enable other companies, other developers, to go on, package these and embed them in the products and services that they're building. And, uh, that's the job of a P A. Product measures just like a product manager that you would have for any other product. But what they're thinking about is how do they make their A P? I success >> had to Mark's point there. He saw money being left on the table. Small little tweak now opens up a new product line at an economic model. The constructor that's it's pretty *** good. >> It's shifting to this idea platform business models, and it's a super exciting thing that we're seeing the companies that successfully do it, they see huge growth way. Think that every business is goingto have to transition into this AP I product model eventually. >> Mark, what's the what's the role of the data scientist? Obviously very important in your organization and the relationship between the data scientists and the developers. And it specifically What is Google doing, Tio? Help them coordinate, Collaborate better instead of wrangling data all day. Yeah, I mean, >> so far, a data scientists when we actually have multiple areas. Obviously, we're studying the weather data itself. But then we're studying the use case of data how they're actually ingesting it itself, but incorporating that into our products and services. I mean I mean, that's kind of >> mean date is every where the key is the applications have the data built in. This is to your point about >> unnecessarily incorporating it in, but to collaborate on creating products, right? I mean, you're doing a lot of data science. You got application developers. All right? You're talking about tooling, right? R, are they just sort of separate silos or they >> I mean, we obviously have to have an understanding of what day it is going to be successful. What's gonna be adjusted and the easiest way to adjust it a swell so way obviously are analyzing it from that sense is, >> I say step back for a second. Thiss Google Next mark. What's your impression of the show this year? What's the vibe? What's this day? One storyline in your mind. Yet a session you were in earlier. What's been some of the feedback? What's what's it like >> for me personally? It's that AP eyes, power, everything. So that's obviously what we've been very focused on, and that's what the messaging I've been hearing. But yeah, I mean, divide has been incredible here. Obviously be around so many different great minds and the creativity. It's it's definitely >> talk. What was the session that you did? What was the talk about? Outside? Maybe I was some >> of the feedback. Yeah, I mean, so the session I gave was how wacky weather unlock new business opportunities with the FBI's on way. Got great feedback was a full house, had lots of questions afterwards that followed me out to the hallway. It's was actually running here, being held up, but lots people are interested in learning about this. How can they unlock their own opportunity? How can they take what they have existing on and bring it to a new audience? For >> some of the questions that that was kind of the thematic kind of weaken stack rank, the categorical questions were mean point. The >> biggest thing was like trying to make decisions about how for us, for example, having an enterprise model already transitioning that toe a self serve model that actually worked before we're kind of engaging clients directly. So having something that users could look at and on their own, immediately engage with and connect with and find ways that they can utilize it for their own business models and purposes. >> And you gotta be psychic, FBI as a business model, You got FBI product managers, you got you got the cloud and those spanning now multiple domain spaces on Prem Hybrid Multi. >> Well, that last points are very exciting to us. So, you know, if you look at it, you know, it was about two and a half years ago that apogee became part of Google and G C P got into hybrid of multi cloud with aptitude that we were, you know, the definitive AP I infrastructure for AP eyes. Wherever they live. And what we saw this morning was DCP doubling down in a very big way on hybrid of multi clap. And so this is fantastic four. This message of AP eyes everywhere. Apogee is going to be able Teo sit on top of Antos and really, wherever people are looking at either producing are consuming AP eyes. We'LL be able to sit on top of that and make it a lot easier to do. Capture that data and build new business models. On top of it, >> we'LL make a prediction here in the Cube. That happens. He's going to be the center. The value proposition. As those abs get built, people go to the business model. Connecting them under the covers is going to be a very interesting opportunity with you guys. It's >> a very exciting, very exciting for us to >> get hurt here first in the queue, of course. The cubes looking for product manager a p I to handle our cube database. So if you're interested, we're always looking for a product manager. FBI economies here I'm Jeopardy Volante here The Cube Day one coverage Google Next stay with us for more of this short break